WEBVTT 00:00:04.140 --> 00:00:07.856 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the 00:00:07.878 --> 00:00:11.696 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number 00:00:11.718 --> 00:00:15.296 of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of 00:00:15.318 --> 00:00:18.992 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better 00:00:19.046 --> 00:00:22.704 place for everyone to thrive. To join me in the future, then 00:00:22.742 --> 00:00:24.690 please do drop me a line to 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:28.084 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk that's 00:00:28.132 --> 00:00:30.840 S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can 00:00:31.660 --> 00:00:35.400 catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and 00:00:35.470 --> 00:00:39.284 the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab 00:00:39.332 --> 00:00:41.690 a decaf and let's get going. 00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:46.536 Today. It's episode 73 with the title You've 00:00:46.568 --> 00:00:50.364 Seven Seconds, Make Them Count. And I have the absolute 00:00:50.402 --> 00:00:54.156 honour and privilege to welcome Sylvie di Giusto. Sylvie describes 00:00:54.188 --> 00:00:58.000 herself as someone who helps professionals around the 00:00:58.070 --> 00:01:01.404 world understand what their first and lasting impression 00:01:01.452 --> 00:01:04.964 says about them and how it impacts the way they perceive 00:01:05.002 --> 00:01:08.516 themselves. When I asked Sylvie to describe her superpower, 00:01:08.538 --> 00:01:12.224 she said in her work, it's substance, significance and 00:01:12.272 --> 00:01:15.568 creativity, and at home, empathy, happiness 00:01:15.664 --> 00:01:19.376 and responsibility. Hello, Sylvie, welcome 00:01:19.408 --> 00:01:23.064 to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so 00:01:23.102 --> 00:01:26.856 thrilled and excited to be with you. I've been looking forward to this 00:01:26.878 --> 00:01:30.696 as well since we met a few weeks back, that conference in Dublin. It's 00:01:30.728 --> 00:01:33.884 been great to have you finally here. So, 00:01:33.922 --> 00:01:37.100 Sylvie, tell me, You've Seven 00:01:37.170 --> 00:01:39.630 Seconds, how do we make them count? 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:44.368 Well, let me start with an example, one that you actually just mentioned. A 00:01:44.374 --> 00:01:48.144 few weeks ago, I had the pleasure to join a conference in 00:01:48.182 --> 00:01:51.952 Dublin where some of the most successful speakers from around the world 00:01:52.006 --> 00:01:55.696 gather to learn. And just imagine me walking 00:01:55.728 --> 00:01:58.950 into this room where there are around 300 people, 00:01:59.880 --> 00:02:03.664 and instantly, within the first seconds, 00:02:03.792 --> 00:02:07.192 somebody in that huge crowd stood out to me. I 00:02:07.246 --> 00:02:11.080 instantly saw her, noticed her, wanted to know 00:02:11.150 --> 00:02:14.792 more about her, wanted to get to know her, wanted 00:02:14.846 --> 00:02:18.584 to feel out that person because she stood out. And guess 00:02:18.622 --> 00:02:22.412 what? That was you, Joanne. And so you made your 7 00:02:22.466 --> 00:02:25.948 seconds definitely count, because we know 00:02:26.034 --> 00:02:29.612 that it has nothing to do with the fact if you are a good human 00:02:29.666 --> 00:02:33.232 being, a bad human being. We walk into meetings at 00:02:33.286 --> 00:02:36.892 work, we walk into meetings with clients 00:02:37.036 --> 00:02:40.656 and people instantly, instantly kind 00:02:40.678 --> 00:02:44.496 of judge you, like it or not. We make assumptions. And in the 00:02:44.518 --> 00:02:48.276 best case, those are good assumptions, like I had about June. And I 00:02:48.298 --> 00:02:52.052 instantly thought, this is a person I need in my life. And I'm so 00:02:52.106 --> 00:02:53.940 excited that we reconnected. 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.050 Wow, you kind of maybe got flustered there. 00:03:00.540 --> 00:03:04.232 Thank you. I'm very honoured to think so. And I completely agree 00:03:04.286 --> 00:03:07.784 completely that we are, as a human species, we are kind 00:03:07.822 --> 00:03:11.516 of have this bias, this fight, flight, freeze mechanism in our 00:03:11.538 --> 00:03:15.256 head. And that 1st 7 seconds is that window 00:03:15.288 --> 00:03:18.604 of opportunity to establish who we are with somebody else 00:03:18.642 --> 00:03:22.332 isn't exactly and. Again, it has nothing to do 00:03:22.386 --> 00:03:25.568 if you are a female or a male, if you are old or young, if 00:03:25.574 --> 00:03:29.228 you are your body or in the body of Mother Teresa 00:03:29.324 --> 00:03:33.168 we all do it. It's actually brain performance happening. There is 00:03:33.254 --> 00:03:37.012 science behind it that tells us kind of exactly 00:03:37.146 --> 00:03:40.864 what happens in our brains. It doesn't really matter if it's 7 seconds 00:03:40.912 --> 00:03:44.644 or milliseconds if it's 11 seconds. There are different studies out 00:03:44.682 --> 00:03:48.104 there but all of them have in common that we do 00:03:48.222 --> 00:03:51.668 form opinions about somebody instantly 00:03:51.844 --> 00:03:54.200 based on what I call the 00:03:54.270 --> 00:03:58.036 ABCDE of a first impression. And if you don't 00:03:58.068 --> 00:04:01.310 mind, I run you quickly through that framework that you know 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:05.852 how you can use this to your advantage, especially at 00:04:05.906 --> 00:04:09.596 work. The A stands for your appearance, the way 00:04:09.618 --> 00:04:13.372 you look. Like it or not, we are all visual creatures. 00:04:13.436 --> 00:04:17.024 Our brains are actually quite lazy. They don't like to 00:04:17.062 --> 00:04:20.736 work so they take a shortcut through our eyes. We look at 00:04:20.758 --> 00:04:24.384 somebody and instantly, based on their body image, 00:04:24.512 --> 00:04:28.324 their clothing, their skin, their teeth, their smile, their 00:04:28.362 --> 00:04:31.732 hair, their accessories, we think we know something about that 00:04:31.786 --> 00:04:35.444 person. Is it fair? No, it isn't. Does it 00:04:35.482 --> 00:04:38.932 happen? Absolutely. But just to be clear, 00:04:38.986 --> 00:04:42.664 looking good is great, but it's not enough because 00:04:42.702 --> 00:04:46.440 at one point we are going to be for behave your 00:04:46.510 --> 00:04:50.232 attitude, is it positive, is it negative? 00:04:50.376 --> 00:04:53.804 Do you have the aura like you have that I instantly was 00:04:53.842 --> 00:04:57.564 gravitating towards you and thought I want to know more about that 00:04:57.602 --> 00:05:00.996 person based on her behaviour, emotional 00:05:01.048 --> 00:05:03.890 intelligence. How do you, 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:08.752 for example, apply business etiquette skills? Do you look somebody 00:05:08.806 --> 00:05:12.496 in the eyes or not? Do you shake somebody's hands or not? Are you on 00:05:12.518 --> 00:05:16.224 your phone all the time? So how do you behave in micro 00:05:16.272 --> 00:05:20.004 moments that might not be relevant to you but at work might 00:05:20.042 --> 00:05:23.684 be relevant for your client or for your boss or for your team 00:05:23.722 --> 00:05:27.568 member and then at one point you're going to say something. So 00:05:27.594 --> 00:05:31.384 it's the C four communication and it's about what 00:05:31.422 --> 00:05:35.176 you say and how you say it. Let's first start with how 00:05:35.198 --> 00:05:38.788 you say it. Your voice is a very powerful tool. It's like an 00:05:38.814 --> 00:05:42.332 instrument that you play every single day and most of us 00:05:42.466 --> 00:05:45.820 never learn to play that instrument, we just play it. 00:05:45.970 --> 00:05:49.740 And how do you communicate? Are you a clear 00:05:49.810 --> 00:05:53.552 communicator? Are you a passive aggressive communicator? How do you 00:05:53.606 --> 00:05:56.610 start conversations? What do you actually say? 00:05:57.140 --> 00:06:00.704 Your tone, your pace, your voice. Do you have an 00:06:00.742 --> 00:06:03.956 accent like I have? Do you have specific 00:06:04.138 --> 00:06:07.030 patterns, communication patterns that you apply 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.870 that ABC with a very common model? 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:14.752 I have added the diesel for your digital 00:06:14.816 --> 00:06:18.360 footprint because I find that nowadays most 00:06:18.430 --> 00:06:22.104 often we don't make a first impression anymore in 00:06:22.142 --> 00:06:25.832 person. I was lucky to meet you in person 00:06:25.886 --> 00:06:29.668 the first time, but in reality most often we make 00:06:29.694 --> 00:06:33.340 a first impression with the emails that we send with the social media 00:06:33.410 --> 00:06:36.984 profiles that we create with the conscious and unconscious 00:06:37.032 --> 00:06:40.076 digital footprints that we leave behind on the 00:06:40.098 --> 00:06:43.664 internet. And if you are at work and think, 00:06:43.782 --> 00:06:47.404 well, my social media that is personal, that is private, 00:06:47.452 --> 00:06:50.976 that has nothing to do with my personal, with my 00:06:50.998 --> 00:06:54.724 professional life, then you are very wrong. Because if there are two things 00:06:54.762 --> 00:06:58.436 that don't belong together, it's the internet and it's private. Right. 00:06:58.618 --> 00:07:02.276 And then the environment, the environment you 00:07:02.298 --> 00:07:05.956 operate in, the E Four environment, the people you hang 00:07:05.988 --> 00:07:09.560 out with, the people you surround yourself, are they all 00:07:09.710 --> 00:07:13.000 alikes? Lookalikes or do you put 00:07:13.070 --> 00:07:16.904 conscious effort into surrounding yourself with people you 00:07:16.942 --> 00:07:20.604 can learn something from, but also your environment, such 00:07:20.642 --> 00:07:24.444 as the office, the car that you drive, the house that you live, we are 00:07:24.482 --> 00:07:28.316 going vacation. Everything that we find out about you and 00:07:28.338 --> 00:07:31.740 your environment will influence the instant 00:07:31.900 --> 00:07:35.696 opinion we have about you. So thank you very 00:07:35.718 --> 00:07:39.280 much for letting me quickly run through. But now you know 00:07:39.350 --> 00:07:42.832 how with your ABCDE you can actually 00:07:42.966 --> 00:07:46.532 a little bit control the imprint you make on 00:07:46.586 --> 00:07:50.084 others. What you can't control, and you are such an expert in that 00:07:50.122 --> 00:07:53.664 topic, is which unconscious biases 00:07:53.792 --> 00:07:55.990 you are fighting on the other side. 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:00.200 Yeah, that's really, really interesting because one of the things I've 00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:04.280 come to think about over the last few years is that whilst we want to 00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:08.072 strive to eliminate unconscious bias to create 00:08:08.126 --> 00:08:11.484 fairness, create opportunity, as an 00:08:11.522 --> 00:08:14.716 entrepreneur, as you are, we want to play those 00:08:14.738 --> 00:08:18.476 biases. We have to understand the biases that are in play. And 00:08:18.498 --> 00:08:22.208 as you say the ABCDE, we have 00:08:22.214 --> 00:08:25.488 to think about how we're going to come across. So we want to 00:08:25.574 --> 00:08:29.072 influence someone's bias positively, not let 00:08:29.126 --> 00:08:32.928 them almost like control that conversation in 00:08:32.934 --> 00:08:36.436 that way, isn't it? Because we're giving them the help that we want to be 00:08:36.458 --> 00:08:40.176 perceived, they're then reacting to the information we're providing. 00:08:40.208 --> 00:08:43.572 So I think if you think about sales, we think about marketing, it's all around 00:08:43.626 --> 00:08:47.416 playing to someone's bias or their emotions or 00:08:47.438 --> 00:08:50.916 their connection. Whilst I love to remove 00:08:50.948 --> 00:08:54.308 unconscious bias, I want to make sure that I'm playing the bias 00:08:54.404 --> 00:08:58.216 positively. I love what you said about the digital 00:08:58.248 --> 00:09:01.852 footprint. I've been very conscious that my 00:09:01.906 --> 00:09:05.416 personal and business life online presence 00:09:05.528 --> 00:09:09.116 are blending into one. And I'm not saying that 00:09:09.138 --> 00:09:12.640 I'm inauthentic, but I am very measured 00:09:12.980 --> 00:09:16.796 about the stories I share personally and I'm 00:09:16.828 --> 00:09:19.490 very conscious about what it says about me. 00:09:21.380 --> 00:09:24.916 If I'm going to say that I'm sad and unhappy or struggling or 00:09:24.938 --> 00:09:28.356 stressed, I put it in context not 00:09:28.538 --> 00:09:32.084 as a wound, but as a scar. So I'm saying the 00:09:32.122 --> 00:09:35.936 takeaway from this is what I've learned from this. I think what you're 00:09:35.968 --> 00:09:39.784 saying there is we've got to be there's 7 seconds, as you say. 10 00:09:39.822 --> 00:09:42.792 seconds. 7 seconds, 2 seconds. This 00:09:42.846 --> 00:09:46.436 ABCDE is beyond just that first visual 00:09:46.468 --> 00:09:50.316 impression of someone, isn't it? Absolutely. And when 00:09:50.338 --> 00:09:54.092 it comes to your digital footprint. I know that many people 00:09:54.146 --> 00:09:57.912 think, well, let me just be authentic online the way I'm authentic 00:09:57.976 --> 00:10:01.356 offline. But here's the problem with authenticity, 00:10:01.548 --> 00:10:05.200 something that authenticity means I don't have to care 00:10:05.270 --> 00:10:08.668 anymore. I can just do, say, behave 00:10:08.764 --> 00:10:12.320 whatever I want. And I think the opposite. 00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:17.044 Obviously, you are a human being with ups and 00:10:17.082 --> 00:10:20.756 downs. We all have them. But at the end of 00:10:20.778 --> 00:10:24.404 the month, at least, I rely on a paycheck and so do many 00:10:24.442 --> 00:10:27.784 people who work in corporations. So I need to take into 00:10:27.822 --> 00:10:31.300 consideration that, yes, I should be authentic 00:10:31.380 --> 00:10:34.712 even online. But there is kind of a 00:10:34.766 --> 00:10:38.436 limit on how I can share my opinions, 00:10:38.628 --> 00:10:42.476 always knowing that possibly I can offend somebody on 00:10:42.498 --> 00:10:46.028 the other side, for example, or also being aware of 00:10:46.114 --> 00:10:49.884 you don't know which opportunities you miss out because of your 00:10:49.922 --> 00:10:53.452 digital footprint. We don't know how many clients don't 00:10:53.516 --> 00:10:57.216 call us to speak at their conferences because 00:10:57.318 --> 00:11:01.136 they found that post online or that picture online, or 00:11:01.158 --> 00:11:04.764 that email that has been forwarded to them and we don't even know 00:11:04.822 --> 00:11:08.324 about it, and decide, no, that is not the speaker I want to work 00:11:08.362 --> 00:11:11.844 with. Yeah, and I suppose the rule I 00:11:11.882 --> 00:11:15.380 have is that my mum is on Facebook, 00:11:16.040 --> 00:11:19.784 so whenever I post something, I think my 00:11:19.822 --> 00:11:23.384 mum is going to read this. Yes, how do I want my mum to 00:11:23.422 --> 00:11:27.096 interpret it? And my children and my wife and my 00:11:27.118 --> 00:11:30.030 friends, not just my business professionals. But 00:11:30.880 --> 00:11:34.668 I don't want to alarm people. And I 00:11:34.674 --> 00:11:38.364 consider myself quite a positive person. So any post I have 00:11:38.402 --> 00:11:42.044 that has a deep reflection has to have 00:11:42.162 --> 00:11:45.856 a positive outcome, or at least say, this is how I 00:11:45.878 --> 00:11:49.424 felt, this is why I'm down, this is why I'm not feeling great, but 00:11:49.462 --> 00:11:52.876 I'm taking away from this positivity or this is what I'm going to bounce 00:11:52.908 --> 00:11:56.588 back. So I always have that kind of 00:11:56.774 --> 00:12:00.228 mantra, if you like, in my social media posts, to leave people in a 00:12:00.234 --> 00:12:03.984 story and a journey and leave them with a punchline that's positive 00:12:04.032 --> 00:12:07.816 or at least informative or something to take away. And 00:12:07.838 --> 00:12:11.384 that's not inauthentic. And I agree with you, authenticity isn't being able to 00:12:11.422 --> 00:12:13.930 speak without regard, not 00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:17.720 being offensive, being derogatory. 00:12:18.540 --> 00:12:22.236 People who take that view of authenticity, I think, have misread the 00:12:22.258 --> 00:12:26.028 situation. It's about being true to yourself, but also 00:12:26.114 --> 00:12:29.084 understanding your place in society as well. I think you have to understand your social 00:12:29.122 --> 00:12:32.900 responsibility. Some other thoughts. 00:12:32.920 --> 00:12:36.544 First of all, I'm excited that you put so much effort into this and also 00:12:36.582 --> 00:12:40.384 always ending up ending on a positive note, even if you 00:12:40.422 --> 00:12:44.108 share something sad or something that impacted you negatively. 00:12:44.204 --> 00:12:47.824 Because the reality is, if we don't need one more thing, it's 00:12:47.872 --> 00:12:51.604 more negative. People, even in the online space, right? We all like 00:12:51.642 --> 00:12:55.252 to surround ourselves with positive people who all 00:12:55.306 --> 00:12:58.696 have struggles. You and I have struggles, and you can absolutely 00:12:58.878 --> 00:13:02.616 share those struggles online as long as you always keep in 00:13:02.638 --> 00:13:06.484 mind who is reading it and how could they possibly interpret 00:13:06.532 --> 00:13:10.108 it. And I'm going to add two more Ms for you. I always 00:13:10.194 --> 00:13:13.916 say your mom should be able to read it without having a 00:13:13.938 --> 00:13:17.180 heart attack. Your manager and your minister. 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:21.040 The three m's. Three M's. In the end, it's all about 00:13:21.110 --> 00:13:24.930 showing respect. I think respect is incredibly important. 00:13:25.700 --> 00:13:29.280 First and foremost, respect for yourself, because 00:13:29.430 --> 00:13:32.736 you are the most important person in your life. 00:13:32.918 --> 00:13:36.580 You are the CEO of your career. It's not human 00:13:36.650 --> 00:13:40.416 resources, it's not your boss, it's not your CEO. 00:13:40.528 --> 00:13:43.908 You are the CEO of your career. So you need to show 00:13:43.994 --> 00:13:47.800 yourself some respect in that role. And then, obviously, 00:13:47.950 --> 00:13:51.752 only if you show respect to yourself, you have the capability to 00:13:51.806 --> 00:13:54.010 show respect to others too. 00:13:55.340 --> 00:13:59.120 Yeah. One of the things I don't know if you remember, there was I won't 00:13:59.140 --> 00:14:02.684 mention the person in detail, but there's someone at 00:14:02.882 --> 00:14:06.604 the conference we were both at and he was talking 00:14:06.642 --> 00:14:10.460 about the fact that he would never share his political views 00:14:10.900 --> 00:14:12.050 or other 00:14:13.540 --> 00:14:17.010 polarising beliefs he may have 00:14:18.420 --> 00:14:21.490 in case it turned one side off 00:14:22.020 --> 00:14:25.350 or lent. Or he would, as you say, lose business. 00:14:25.880 --> 00:14:29.668 I take a slightly different approach that I would rather say what 00:14:29.674 --> 00:14:33.284 I believe, say why I believe something and if that 00:14:33.322 --> 00:14:36.896 turns people off, for me, it's almost like we probably 00:14:36.938 --> 00:14:38.490 weren't good fits anyway. 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:44.948 My identity as a trans woman can polarise people. I'm not going to hide 00:14:44.964 --> 00:14:48.644 that I'm going to be me. If that turns you off, then that's 00:14:48.692 --> 00:14:52.396 fine, because I recognise that it's going to turn more people on or 00:14:52.418 --> 00:14:55.948 the right people on than the wrong people off, sort of thing. So 00:14:56.114 --> 00:14:58.300 I think in terms of my authenticity, 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:02.616 hinting at my political beliefs without being a political 00:15:02.648 --> 00:15:06.156 commentator is important because I want to talk about social justice. 00:15:06.348 --> 00:15:09.536 I don't want to be leaning to the right, I want to be leaning to 00:15:09.558 --> 00:15:12.770 the centre and to the left slightly, where we are looking at 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.484 communities and governments that are investing in people, 00:15:16.602 --> 00:15:20.372 not minimalizing the state. So 00:15:20.506 --> 00:15:23.876 I'm happy to talk about that. I'm happy to sort of commentate on some of 00:15:23.898 --> 00:15:27.616 the injustices that are going on in the world through 00:15:27.658 --> 00:15:31.236 that lens as well. And I think that's important because that's part of my brand, 00:15:31.428 --> 00:15:34.650 to have those opinions. Here's exactly the point. 00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:39.324 You are an expert in this area. We need you 00:15:39.362 --> 00:15:42.620 to talk about things like that. We need you to 00:15:42.690 --> 00:15:46.140 educate us on those different things and 00:15:46.290 --> 00:15:49.836 help us understand the world because we have 00:15:49.938 --> 00:15:53.344 blind spots, we have our own biases and 00:15:53.382 --> 00:15:57.056 possibly don't see the things or quite sure, don't see the 00:15:57.078 --> 00:16:00.256 things through the lenses. You see them. However, here's the 00:16:00.278 --> 00:16:04.084 difference. You are an expert in that area and you can 00:16:04.122 --> 00:16:07.972 take a stand. If I'm a sales speaker or if 00:16:08.026 --> 00:16:11.684 I am a customer experience speaker, then my 00:16:11.722 --> 00:16:15.344 political opinions are not relevant. For my 00:16:15.402 --> 00:16:18.376 audience it's always audience and 00:16:18.478 --> 00:16:22.136 occasion, right? And so I agree and 00:16:22.238 --> 00:16:25.848 disagree with what that speaker said. Of course people 00:16:25.934 --> 00:16:29.132 like you need to take a stand and need to 00:16:29.186 --> 00:16:32.572 educate us and part of that education is your 00:16:32.626 --> 00:16:36.204 personal view on things that helps me 00:16:36.402 --> 00:16:40.104 as somebody who don't have the same lenses to 00:16:40.162 --> 00:16:43.570 identify my blind spots and learn from you 00:16:44.020 --> 00:16:47.600 but I on the other side. I speak about first 00:16:47.670 --> 00:16:51.216 impressions and when I post something about 00:16:51.318 --> 00:16:54.708 politics it rather has nothing to do with my personal 00:16:54.794 --> 00:16:58.580 political opinion I never take a stand but I help 00:16:58.650 --> 00:17:02.132 people to see both sides of the coin and how first 00:17:02.186 --> 00:17:06.036 impressions of a politician, for example, impact voter 00:17:06.068 --> 00:17:09.256 decisions. So it really depends on the audience and on the 00:17:09.278 --> 00:17:12.616 occasion, especially if you are a leader in a 00:17:12.638 --> 00:17:16.360 corporation, what you say out there, what does 00:17:16.430 --> 00:17:20.172 your political opinion really or 00:17:20.226 --> 00:17:23.944 how does it really help or does it just add noise 00:17:24.072 --> 00:17:27.884 to the world? I completely agree with what you're saying 00:17:27.922 --> 00:17:31.456 and my view is that you talk about the problem, not the 00:17:31.478 --> 00:17:34.896 person or the politics so the impact of a 00:17:34.918 --> 00:17:38.704 decision, not the decision itself or who made 00:17:38.742 --> 00:17:42.370 it so you're talking about how it affects people and lives. 00:17:44.100 --> 00:17:47.524 I would never criticise a person or 00:17:47.562 --> 00:17:51.268 demonise a person or create judgement on a person because generally I 00:17:51.274 --> 00:17:54.836 don't know them. All I know is what I see on the news or the 00:17:54.858 --> 00:17:58.568 paper or hear about. So I'm really conscious about 00:17:58.734 --> 00:18:02.580 that judgement you make. And it actually annoys my wife 00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:06.376 that I will say that 00:18:06.478 --> 00:18:09.464 maybe one of her comments is unfair. And she goes, well, you always take somebody 00:18:09.502 --> 00:18:13.164 outside. No, I'm not taking somebody outside. What I'm doing is trying to 00:18:13.202 --> 00:18:16.556 step back from the person and look at the decision or the 00:18:16.578 --> 00:18:20.332 problem. And that's what I want to commentate about my view 00:18:20.386 --> 00:18:24.050 on the opinion, not who made it and why they made it. 00:18:24.580 --> 00:18:28.096 Very well done. And that view helps us to understand 00:18:28.198 --> 00:18:31.920 the problem without also on top not 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:34.550 judging the person you are commenting on. 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.110 You said audience and occasion. I think that is and I talk about 00:18:41.560 --> 00:18:44.964 context, which is what we're saying there, isn't it? 00:18:45.162 --> 00:18:48.824 What is good language, what is good to conversation, what is good in 00:18:48.862 --> 00:18:52.664 one situation, in a different context, with a different audience, can 00:18:52.702 --> 00:18:56.424 have a different connotation, can have different meanings and 00:18:56.462 --> 00:19:00.190 can polarise in the wrong way so I think it is important to understand 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.800 who your audience is. One problem there is when we communicate 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:09.644 very often we focus on the things that we say and how 00:19:09.682 --> 00:19:13.504 we should say them and when we should say them and what we should say 00:19:13.622 --> 00:19:16.912 but the reality, the most important part of 00:19:16.966 --> 00:19:20.112 communication is actually not speaking, it is 00:19:20.166 --> 00:19:24.004 listening, active listening. I think we all can 00:19:24.042 --> 00:19:27.760 do a better job in active listening 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:31.552 to the other person and then adjusting 00:19:31.616 --> 00:19:35.216 our communication but very often we start with what should 00:19:35.258 --> 00:19:38.424 we say to impress the person, to 00:19:38.542 --> 00:19:42.056 sound interesting, but we rather 00:19:42.158 --> 00:19:44.730 should be interested. Not interesting. 00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:49.884 That's so true. And I find when we 00:19:49.922 --> 00:19:53.564 communicate and talk, often we're trying to persuade the other 00:19:53.602 --> 00:19:57.132 person of our belief. So if you think about 00:19:57.186 --> 00:20:00.876 many conversations, you initiate it's. Like I'm saying now, I'm trying to 00:20:00.898 --> 00:20:04.210 persuade you that I'm right by what I say. 00:20:04.820 --> 00:20:08.064 And most conversations are like that. And if we're not careful, we don't actually listen 00:20:08.102 --> 00:20:10.720 to the other people's view or opinion or perspective, 00:20:12.100 --> 00:20:15.156 we're never going to change our view. So it's trying to work out how we 00:20:15.178 --> 00:20:18.976 can be, as you say, active listener, not reinforce 00:20:19.008 --> 00:20:22.596 our confirmation bias, not play to those biases when we 00:20:22.618 --> 00:20:26.230 have and be kind of open to new thinking. 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:31.336 Empathy all it requires empathy. If you're an 00:20:31.358 --> 00:20:35.208 empathetic communicator, you know how to 00:20:35.294 --> 00:20:38.600 listen well to the other person 00:20:38.750 --> 00:20:42.152 and respond based on what they just told 00:20:42.206 --> 00:20:46.010 you. Yeah, completely. And 00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:50.208 I think that is sometimes not 00:20:50.254 --> 00:20:53.932 not as prevalent in leadership. 00:20:54.076 --> 00:20:57.392 In many organisations. We tend to promote good 00:20:57.446 --> 00:20:59.360 technicians, senior 00:21:00.100 --> 00:21:03.744 administrators, into leadership roles without giving 00:21:03.782 --> 00:21:07.508 them the right tools, because we know we can train leadership. We know 00:21:07.514 --> 00:21:11.044 we can train leadership. You're not born. Maybe some people have inherently different 00:21:11.082 --> 00:21:14.836 personalities that are more attuned to leader roles, but 00:21:14.858 --> 00:21:18.520 we know we can train leaders now and we often don't invest 00:21:18.590 --> 00:21:22.328 well enough in those soft skills. The empathy, the emotion, the 00:21:22.334 --> 00:21:26.004 compassion, the emotional intelligence, the listening. Yes. I spent 00:21:26.052 --> 00:21:29.724 20 years in human resources myself, working for 00:21:29.762 --> 00:21:33.564 a big organisation in Europe. Some of you might 00:21:33.602 --> 00:21:36.844 actually know them. Kashdat Kwali, which was a 00:21:36.882 --> 00:21:40.252 retailer, and Thomas Cook, which you certainly 00:21:40.386 --> 00:21:43.644 know. And I was responsible for building up their management 00:21:43.692 --> 00:21:47.152 academy for their top 100 leaders. And what was 00:21:47.206 --> 00:21:50.672 fascinating for me is I always found that we 00:21:50.726 --> 00:21:54.420 hired leaders for their hard skills, 00:21:55.080 --> 00:21:58.580 but we fired them because of their soft skills 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:03.590 or. The lack of yes. Or the lack of soft skills. Exactly. 00:22:04.040 --> 00:22:07.108 And so things like emotional 00:22:07.204 --> 00:22:10.280 intelligence, conflict management, 00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:14.920 communication skills, to a certain degree, they are all 00:22:14.990 --> 00:22:18.780 so important for leaders in organisation. And 00:22:18.850 --> 00:22:21.992 I encourage everybody listening who is somehow 00:22:22.056 --> 00:22:25.772 influential in their organisation to figure out how to 00:22:25.826 --> 00:22:29.624 help those leaders get ahead in the way they represent 00:22:29.672 --> 00:22:33.344 themselves, because they also represent your organisation by 00:22:33.382 --> 00:22:36.960 applying these soft skills or the lack of soft skills. 00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:42.752 But I don't think we invest enough time. You're completely 00:22:42.806 --> 00:22:46.612 right. I think it is a case of recognising that we can 00:22:46.666 --> 00:22:50.340 train technical skills, we can't always train 00:22:50.410 --> 00:22:54.116 human attitudes or values. And I think 00:22:54.138 --> 00:22:57.316 in the modern world, we look at the way we've moved on from a command 00:22:57.348 --> 00:23:01.096 and control, hierarchical, very top down 00:23:01.278 --> 00:23:04.932 style of management and leadership. We're now in a more collaborative, 00:23:05.076 --> 00:23:08.776 transformational sort of style, where people want 00:23:08.798 --> 00:23:12.604 to be empowered. They're artisans, they're creators in many 00:23:12.642 --> 00:23:15.980 roles. Now, we want to empower people to succeed and we have to 00:23:16.050 --> 00:23:19.628 motivate them and manage them and lead them in different ways than we've ever done. 00:23:19.794 --> 00:23:23.456 And I think COVID brought this home to us, that none of us had the 00:23:23.478 --> 00:23:27.170 experience of COVID in any part of the business. 00:23:28.100 --> 00:23:31.776 Our leaders were just as scared as our colleagues. Exactly. 00:23:31.958 --> 00:23:34.980 They had no tools and how they reacted 00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:39.190 was, I think, quite incredible because they adapted very quickly. 00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:44.436 They came from a world where the standard message was, we can't do 00:23:44.458 --> 00:23:45.030 that, 00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:51.050 we have to do that now. And 00:23:52.060 --> 00:23:55.290 it was even agile by agile standards, wasn't it? 00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:01.224 I think one of the mistakes we often make when we hire 00:24:01.272 --> 00:24:04.892 leaders in organisation is that we so much focus on those hard 00:24:04.946 --> 00:24:08.108 skills, so much on their past 00:24:08.194 --> 00:24:12.032 experiences, in terms of the titles they had, 00:24:12.086 --> 00:24:15.808 the responsibilities they had, and don't look enough 00:24:15.894 --> 00:24:18.912 into their soft skills and especially into their 00:24:18.966 --> 00:24:22.572 talents, because, as you say, it's soft skills. 00:24:22.716 --> 00:24:26.068 Still, there are ways to kind of train 00:24:26.154 --> 00:24:29.924 them. We have leadership training programmes or other 00:24:29.962 --> 00:24:33.444 soft skills programmes. What you can't train is actually a 00:24:33.482 --> 00:24:37.304 talent. A talent is something you are born with. When you go 00:24:37.342 --> 00:24:41.096 back into your childhood and you think of something you 00:24:41.118 --> 00:24:44.952 have always been somehow magically be good 00:24:45.006 --> 00:24:48.696 at, you just were born with that talent. Could be in 00:24:48.718 --> 00:24:52.236