Joanne Lockwood: You. Hello,
Joanne Lockwood: everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number
Joanne Lockwood: of amazing people as simply had a conversation around the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a. Better
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Joanne Lockwood: Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
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Joanne Lockwood: plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get
Joanne Lockwood: going. Today is Episode
Joanne Lockwood: 76 with the title Awakening
Joanne Lockwood: Dreams. And I have the absolute honour and. Privilege to
Joanne Lockwood: welcome my guest today, Ian Hatton.
Joanne Lockwood: Ian describes himself as someone who builds conscious
Joanne Lockwood: leaders. And when I asked Ian to describe. His superpower, he
Joanne Lockwood: said radical self acceptance of his flaws
Joanne Lockwood: that enables him to. Radically accept others,
Joanne Lockwood: no matter what. Hello, Ian, welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show. Hi, Joe. It's so good to be here. I've been
Ian Hatton: looking forward to this since. We met in October. Yes, we did. In
Joanne Lockwood: Dublin, wasn't it? At a global Dublin? Indeed, yes, it
Joanne Lockwood: was. Brilliant day. Ian, tell me,
Joanne Lockwood: Awakening Dreams, what's that about?
Ian Hatton: So, Jo, it's a bit of a long story, but it goes back more
Ian Hatton: than 20 years, where some friends and I got together and
Ian Hatton: we said, who are we? Sort of mythically and mystically, just
Ian Hatton: as a way of discovering more of our own uniqueness. And
Ian Hatton: various of my friends came up with all sorts of ideas and I
Ian Hatton: came back and said, I'm blank, I'm stumped, I'm coming up with
Ian Hatton: nothing. And one of my friends looked up and she said, but yet
Ian Hatton: it's obvious you're morpheus. And I said, what do you
Ian Hatton: mean, I'm morpheus? I wish I was morpheus. And everybody else
Ian Hatton: turned and said, you are. You are
Ian Hatton: morpheus. And the one who awakens
Ian Hatton: dreams. The Greek god of dreams, the one who
Ian Hatton: believes. And everybody else has stopped believing. Not the hero, but the one
Ian Hatton: who raises up the hero. And I came to
Ian Hatton: identify with myself as Morpheus. And
Ian Hatton: I am one who awakens dreams in others,
Ian Hatton: leadership dreams, dreams to influence and leave the world a better place.
Joanne Lockwood: I love that. I love that. Just picked up you said that. The
Joanne Lockwood: creator of heroes, the unsung,
Joanne Lockwood: the teddy's coach of the greats, if you like, the the leadership
Joanne Lockwood: coat, the coach of the greats. It's too
Joanne Lockwood: often we find that the. If you like,
Joanne Lockwood: the guru wants the limelight. But what you're saying there
Joanne Lockwood: is you are the supporter, you are the promoter, you are the person that
Joanne Lockwood: gets the person to their dreams. It's not about and your
Joanne Lockwood: dream is. To get them to their dream, if you like. Exactly. That is
Ian Hatton: exactly what it's about. And nothing gives me a greater thrill. And I don't mind
Ian Hatton: the limelight, I don't mind being on stage, giving keynote speeches and all
Ian Hatton: the rest of it, but my real success is 20 years
Ian Hatton: later, what are they saying? And I've got
Ian Hatton: two examples of young people in South Africa well, they were young
Ian Hatton: 20 years ago, who I met and spent a lot of time with
Ian Hatton: and who now how running either in senior
Ian Hatton: leadership positions or their own businesses very
Ian Hatton: successfully. And that, to me, is the
Ian Hatton: real glory I want is what
Ian Hatton: they do. Not what I do.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd love to see that replicated in other
Joanne Lockwood: leadership development because yes, I
Joanne Lockwood: appreciate you want the line, right? You want the glory, you want more business coming.
Joanne Lockwood: Obviously we all do, but I think as speakers, we often recognise
Joanne Lockwood: it's not about us, is it? It's about the audience. It's about the people who
Joanne Lockwood: are inspiring and it really helps to ground us in that.
Ian Hatton: Joanne, one of the most humbling lessons I've ever learned
Ian Hatton: was somebody once said to me a quite a good orator said to me,
Ian Hatton: Eloquence is in the audience. And I was like, no, no, I'm
Ian Hatton: the eloquent, it's in me. And eventually I became to
Ian Hatton: realise that the audience drew it out
Ian Hatton: from me and that the audience was what was the
Ian Hatton: missing ingredient between me being eloquent or not.
Ian Hatton: It's all about the audience. It's not about me at all.
Joanne Lockwood: When we were talking before we went live, you were talking about conscious
Joanne Lockwood: leadership. So what's that?
Joanne Lockwood: Consciousness? I presume there must be an unconscious leadership
Joanne Lockwood: or a lack of consciousness leadership. So what do you mean by
Joanne Lockwood: conscious leadership? Well, it's a very all
Ian Hatton: encompassing term and when I left the computer industry just over
Ian Hatton: 20 years ago to follow this new career, my second career,
Ian Hatton: I was very excited about a concept I'd learnt about
Ian Hatton: called authentic leadership, where people bring their truest selves and
Ian Hatton: they lead from that. But that's evolved and the term
Ian Hatton: conscious leadership has only emerged since about 2016. So it's a
Ian Hatton: fairly new idea, but it builds on this idea of authentic
Ian Hatton: leadership. So conscious leaders are conscious of themselves
Ian Hatton: and that means everything personality,
Ian Hatton: strengths, weaknesses, intuitions. It's
Ian Hatton: not just head, it's heart as well. Body, even. We're
Ian Hatton: not just brains on sticks. There's a whole lot of stuff about being aware
Ian Hatton: of the fullness of who we are, but
Ian Hatton: simultaneously the same for their people. Their
Ian Hatton: consciousness of self becomes a consciousness of other. And looking
Ian Hatton: at the diversity there and the different strengths and
Ian Hatton: weaknesses and preferences and
Ian Hatton: wirings and all of these things, and again, it's mental, it's
Ian Hatton: physical, it's heart, it's intuition, it's all these things.
Ian Hatton: And then perhaps even beyond being aware of our planet and
Ian Hatton: consciousness of the ecological
Ian Hatton: things that are happening and that sort of thing. So it
Ian Hatton: includes this full variety and a conscious
Ian Hatton: leader is somebody who leads with conscious in all of those
Ian Hatton: areas. Yeah. Picking up
Joanne Lockwood: what you say. I was talking about this the other night with somebody. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's down to some of it, it's down to your personal brand. We talk about
Joanne Lockwood: marketing term and it's who you
Joanne Lockwood: are, what you stand for and what people can expect
Joanne Lockwood: from you. And that's our brand, isn't it? Wherever you want to boil that down.
Joanne Lockwood: And I was talking to him the other day about we have to now factor
Joanne Lockwood: in to our brand, our planetary
Joanne Lockwood: considerations, our environmental, our sustainability,
Joanne Lockwood: our impact on the planet has to be part of our personal brand as well
Joanne Lockwood: because we know that our brand either turns people on or turns people
Joanne Lockwood: off. So if we're gas
Joanne Lockwood: guzzling, polluting brand, we know that's going to have
Joanne Lockwood: an impact on our clients, our audience, whoever that may be. That
Ian Hatton: is totally true. And again, one example is that I've
Ian Hatton: got twelve leaders on a one year journey with me.
Ian Hatton: And one of them I met with Lost earlier this
Ian Hatton: week and I was asking him, so what do you want
Ian Hatton: to shift at the next year? What lies ahead for you?
Ian Hatton: What is the next step in you and your leadership? And
Ian Hatton: it took a little while and eventually said, you know what, this is the year
Ian Hatton: that he wants to establish his personal brand. And it's
Ian Hatton: exactly this. It's all encompassing. It's drawing on his
Ian Hatton: strengths, being aware and releasing his,
Ian Hatton: his weaknesses, you know, teeming for weakness and being
Ian Hatton: conscious of that. And the same with his people and his
Ian Hatton: impact on the planet. He's very, very interested in the
Ian Hatton: African context, in agriculture and
Ian Hatton: how agriculture impacts things. And it's all of that he wants
Ian Hatton: to include in his personal brand story.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, Gen Z,
Joanne Lockwood: the emerging generations that are our future leaders. You're
Joanne Lockwood: probably even seeing some early Gen Zed leaders already.
Joanne Lockwood: That is really, really important. And certainly when we look at Gen
Joanne Lockwood: Zed's follower, the Gen Beetle, Gen Alpha, we will
Joanne Lockwood: see more of this consciousness. Around, well,
Joanne Lockwood: consciousness about identity, conscious about. Who they are, consciousness about their
Joanne Lockwood: environment and how they want to be treated and respect is completely different
Joanne Lockwood: to I'm a Gen Xer millennials or Boomers.
Joanne Lockwood: We have a different view of the world, don't we? And it's going to be
Joanne Lockwood: really important. And you know what else
Ian Hatton: linked with that? You said, well, if they're conscious leaders, are there also
Ian Hatton: unconscious leaders? And the people who are going to struggle
Ian Hatton: the most with these new generations coming through is the ones
Ian Hatton: who are leading unconsciously because they really will
Ian Hatton: struggle. And what we're finding is conscious leadership is very appealing
Ian Hatton: to the new leaders coming through and the new workforce coming
Ian Hatton: through. And so this idea of conscious leadership
Ian Hatton: is critical. And we are already seeing the first Gen Z or Gen
Ian Hatton: Z leaders coming through and
Ian Hatton: they absolutely have an awareness that we haven't
Ian Hatton: seen previously. And I'm often working
Ian Hatton: with some older generation, even baby boomer leaders, and
Ian Hatton: they're going, they don't know how to handle these people. And they start complaining about
Ian Hatton: all the gen zeds and then I say, have you thought of flipping it around
Ian Hatton: and thinking of the advantages that they bring? And we start listing
Ian Hatton: them and their jaws drop open when they realise how unconscious they've
Ian Hatton: been to the incredible strengths and identity and
Ian Hatton: diversity and awareness that. The new
Joanne Lockwood: generations bring. Yeah, the way they communicate, the way they
Joanne Lockwood: collaborate. They're more collaborative, I believe, just in.
Joanne Lockwood: Terms of more collaborative, yes. More micro
Joanne Lockwood: interactions, more asynchronous communication.
Joanne Lockwood: There's a lot more trust, maybe, as well. I think we go back to
Joanne Lockwood: my. Generation and older, it's very much command and control. It's very much,
Joanne Lockwood: if I can't see you, I can't trust you, I need status reports,
Joanne Lockwood: I need updates all the time, I need to know what you're doing.
Joanne Lockwood: We're not seeing that in the newer leaders, are we? No,
Ian Hatton: much more awareness, trust. And
Ian Hatton: in fact, what we're seeing is that so much
Ian Hatton: where the old style leadership tries to
Ian Hatton: clamp down, it breaks trust and it slows everything down. So
Ian Hatton: there's advantages in this high trust environment that is this
Ian Hatton: more inclusive environment where things can speed up. So what
Ian Hatton: you'll find is, in low trust environments, leaders are
Ian Hatton: creating this sort of clamp down space, as you said, command and
Ian Hatton: control. And the command and control space means people
Ian Hatton: spend time off task. They are now doing the
Joanne Lockwood: covering my. Rear end activities as opposed to the actual
Ian Hatton: task. It's all the report.
Joanne Lockwood: There's layers and layers and layers and I don't know about you,
Joanne Lockwood: but I'm a big fan of Trello and some. Of these new tools
Joanne Lockwood: where I'm not. Saying I'm an Agile
Joanne Lockwood: Scrum Master or Agile Project Manager myself, but I like the idea of
Joanne Lockwood: having micro, these sprints, these little activities. We're not
Joanne Lockwood: big monolithic projects where we. Get to the end, look over our shoulder and go,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, we've missed something. It's collaborative all the way through, isn't it, now? And
Joanne Lockwood: that's a nightmare for some, but. I think
Joanne Lockwood: modern ways of working are much more about touch points, keeping
Joanne Lockwood: in touch toolbox talks or start a day Scrum type
Joanne Lockwood: things. How are we doing this week? What are our problems? What are our challenges?
Joanne Lockwood: Let's get on with it, then. Exactly.
Ian Hatton: And the new tools are coming through. I was working with some leaders
Ian Hatton: recently in a big global company and I was saying,
Ian Hatton: so how competent are you with the new tools?
Ian Hatton: And they will well, they still rely on email and I'm saying,
Ian Hatton: well, email is not a collaboration tool and they were in a state of shock.
Ian Hatton: And I'm going, well, there's so many collaboration tools
Ian Hatton: out there. Email is based
Ian Hatton: on the Memo in, Memo out, which was more than
Ian Hatton: 100 years old. These days we're looking to
Ian Hatton: collaborate, but we want to do it virtually. So can
Ian Hatton: you master these tools? And they realise that some of their biggest gaps
Ian Hatton: in their leadership is they were blind to the tools that were
Ian Hatton: available and the mastery required to be. Able to
Joanne Lockwood: collaborate in that way. So
Joanne Lockwood: let me ask you, I think I know you answers this
Joanne Lockwood: are leaders. Born or are they bred? My answer
Joanne Lockwood: is yes. And what
Ian Hatton: I mean by that is that not everybody's going to be a Mahatma gunda or
Ian Hatton: a Nelson Mandela or a Martin Luther King Jr. Or Mother
Ian Hatton: Teresa or whoever you want to use as an example. Because I
Ian Hatton: think there is an element of wiring for certain
Ian Hatton: types of leadership. But if you then
Joanne Lockwood: go back and. Let me just use those exact names I've just used
Ian Hatton: gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. Nelson Mandela and
Ian Hatton: Mother Teresa. You'll find between them
Ian Hatton: there isn't one style of leadership. They're incredibly
Ian Hatton: diverse in the way that they led, what they brought. And so for
Ian Hatton: me, real leadership is discovering who you really are
Ian Hatton: and bringing that to the influence
Ian Hatton: that you want to bring on the world. And so
Ian Hatton: there is this idea that I've never met a leader who wasn't
Ian Hatton: born,
Ian Hatton: but then again, I've never met a good one who wasn't also
Ian Hatton: made. Look at Nelson Mandela's
Ian Hatton: 27 years in prison. That made him in so many
Ian Hatton: ways. When we look at the
Ian Hatton: idea of yes, we need to be teachable, in fact, one of the most
Ian Hatton: fatal flaws of leadership is to not be teachable. And so we do want to
Ian Hatton: grow, but actually we all have the opportunity to lead,
Ian Hatton: whether it is as a parent, you're a leader. If you're a teacher, you're a
Ian Hatton: leader. If you're a friend or a consultant or you're
Ian Hatton: influencing the moment, you're influencing others, you are a leader. You might never
Ian Hatton: become the President of the United States, but those are
Ian Hatton: not the only leaders in the world. Anybody who influences others is a
Ian Hatton: leader. I always say that we are all
Joanne Lockwood: inherently leaders. We have to lead ourselves, we have to see example, this social
Joanne Lockwood: influence, all those kind of things. So, yeah, I'm a great believer in that and
Joanne Lockwood: I completely agree that some people do have a kind of an
Joanne Lockwood: innate personality trait that makes whether it's their
Joanne Lockwood: confidence or something that is not learnt, it's just part of who they are.
Joanne Lockwood: The danger is we're not careful. We believe that certain people are
Joanne Lockwood: better at leading, which again leads to biases
Joanne Lockwood: and denial of opportunity. For people who are not ticking
Joanne Lockwood: those boxes, maybe their voice isn't as powerful or as strong,
Joanne Lockwood: therefore they have less authority when they speak and those kind of styles.
Joanne Lockwood: But as you just mentioned, Mother Teresa, she didn't have
Joanne Lockwood: a loud, authoritative stance or voice, yet she still
Joanne Lockwood: influenced many millions. Exactly.
Ian Hatton: And this idea of bringing your unique self to me
Ian Hatton: is so central to it. So one of the things I've had
Ian Hatton: before is I've had people come up to me during training when I'm
Ian Hatton: showing them a particular leadership technique. In other words, the part
Ian Hatton: of being made as a leader. And I've had them come to me and
Ian Hatton: say, no, but surely we should just reject all of this and I should just
Ian Hatton: try and be more like Steve Jobs. And then I go and I say, okay,
Ian Hatton: fine. Have you heard Steve Jobs's commencement
Ian Hatton: speech? Because his commencement speech says, if you want
Ian Hatton: to have your biggest impact on the world, you need to be your unique self.
Ian Hatton: In other words, Steve Jobs himself said, don't be like me.
Ian Hatton: Yes, we can learn techniques from others, but there is
Ian Hatton: something about our unique impact on the world is going to be
Ian Hatton: based on the full diversity of. Uniqueness
Joanne Lockwood: that is within us. Yeah. And you can't suddenly
Joanne Lockwood: start shouting and screaming at people, for
Joanne Lockwood: as Steve Jobs often did, and without without building
Joanne Lockwood: up your credentials as a leader to have that level of respect,
Joanne Lockwood: you can't just suddenly think or be Steve Jobs and act like
Joanne Lockwood: him and get away with it.
Ian Hatton: Very successful leaders who never shouted and screamed at anybody. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: exactly. And different styles and yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: we're seeing it now with I won't mention the
Joanne Lockwood: person's name, but Twitter and Tesla and SpaceX.
Joanne Lockwood: So that leadership, again, is different. But there's a
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiversity in there as well. So we got to remember that not everybody
Joanne Lockwood: is neurotypical, whatever that means to people. And
Joanne Lockwood: people have different approaches where empathy and compassion or
Joanne Lockwood: even logical clear thinking. Isn'T a factor in everybody's leadership
Joanne Lockwood: style. Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you build the marriage between
Joanne Lockwood: authenticity and consciousness? Because
Joanne Lockwood: for me, when we think about, say, EQ, emotional intelligence,
Joanne Lockwood: part of that is about self awareness and then self regulation. If you're self
Joanne Lockwood: regulating, do you lose. Some of your authenticity? If
Joanne Lockwood: we're learning to be leaders and learning adapting our style, what
Joanne Lockwood: is the true self? Are we putting a mask on?
Ian Hatton: I love this question. It's actually one of my favourite questions and
Ian Hatton: it's brilliantly worded. Thank you. So, Jo, in this
Ian Hatton: case, emotional intelligence does
Ian Hatton: include a level of self management and that, to
Ian Hatton: me, actually does align with consciousness. So if you take, for example,
Ian Hatton: the person who has a really bad day at work and they arrive
Ian Hatton: home and the dog does something and the first thing they do is they kick
Ian Hatton: the dog, that, to me is not conscious
Ian Hatton: leadership because it wasn't the dog's fault that they had a bad day
Ian Hatton: at work. Or conversely, I had a row with my
Ian Hatton: partner this morning and I arrive at work and I now take it out on
Ian Hatton: my staff. It may be authentic, but it is
Ian Hatton: not conscious and conscious leadership. But the idea
Ian Hatton: for me of authentic is that I
Ian Hatton: am self examining, I'm self aware.
Ian Hatton: I am going to bring my unique personality, my
Ian Hatton: genius. I'm very simultaneously aware
Ian Hatton: that I have areas where I have
Ian Hatton: debilitating weaknesses or areas where
Ian Hatton: I actually feel quite stupid.
Ian Hatton: I want to be aware and authentic about all of that and say,
Ian Hatton: I know where I need help and let me get that help, let me be
Ian Hatton: vulnerable enough to get that help, let me be transparent
Ian Hatton: enough. And that is really what I mean by authentic. Authentic is
Ian Hatton: not I'm just going to vent and take out
Ian Hatton: something that's there and bring it and project it over here. That to me
Ian Hatton: is not conscious. And that's perhaps why I like the graduation
Ian Hatton: from my thinking around authentic leadership towards conscious leadership.
Ian Hatton: Because it's a
Ian Hatton: better managed type of. Leadership but it's still
Joanne Lockwood: authentic. Yeah, I completely agree and unless
Joanne Lockwood: you use the word in their vulnerability, I'm a great believer. Vulnerability,
Joanne Lockwood: humility are core skills
Joanne Lockwood: for great leaders in today's world. How do
Joanne Lockwood: you get leaders to accept their vulnerability and humility?
Ian Hatton: It's a very tricky area that I work and
Ian Hatton: I don't think I've got one answer for that question,
Ian Hatton: but we can talk about it from so many different facets and paint
Ian Hatton: the picture. So for example, if we're talking about trust,
Ian Hatton: so many people say, oh, well, I don't know how important
Ian Hatton: this trust is and I just need to be myself and this sort of thing.
Ian Hatton: And what we've seen as the research is emerging from trust is that trust
Ian Hatton: is in some ways the precursor and more important to
Ian Hatton: than engagement without trust. And the consequences
Ian Hatton: of low trust are actually more extreme than the
Ian Hatton: consequences of not having people fully engaged. And
Ian Hatton: so you start talking about, so how do you build trust? And everybody kind of
Ian Hatton: goes, oh well, I've got integrity. And then you say, okay,
Ian Hatton: do you have integrity with yourself? And now
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly they're taken aback. What do you mean? I say, well,
Ian Hatton: when you commit to something in your own life, do you always do
Ian Hatton: it? Are you authentic with yourself? Are you able
Ian Hatton: to build that authenticity with self? And then
Joanne Lockwood: they kind of start to. Realise this is quite tricky
Ian Hatton: now and say, well, if you're saying, well, I always practise
Ian Hatton: integrity with my people but. I don't have integrity with myself,
Joanne Lockwood: where. Does that leave you? Are they not picking up on that lack of
Ian Hatton: integrity with self? What do they think? If you say,
Ian Hatton: well, yes, I'm true to my word, and then they hear
Ian Hatton: you lying to your partner or even lying
Ian Hatton: to yourself, there's this whole thing of a realisation
Ian Hatton: that there's a piece of
Ian Hatton: vulnerability that if that's not in. Place, you cannot be
Joanne Lockwood: trusted and if. You cannot be trusted, what's the impact on your
Ian Hatton: leadership? And so it's sort of building the case. And
Ian Hatton: trust is just one area that I work with that I think there's
Ian Hatton: so many others. I mean, another one, probably one
Ian Hatton: that's very intuitive and obvious to you, is that
Ian Hatton: if you want people to open up, you start by opening up.
Ian Hatton: There is nothing that will trigger others to open up quicker than you
Ian Hatton: opening up. And so without vulnerability? Are you going to really know
Ian Hatton: what's going on with your people? Are you going to know what the real issues
Ian Hatton: are? If there's a potential safety issue or quality
Ian Hatton: issue, is anybody going to speak up if you're not prepared to be vulnerable,
Ian Hatton: will they be vulnerable?
Ian Hatton: My biggest principle of conscious leadership is it starts with self. In
Ian Hatton: fact, my favourite saying for conscious leaders is, I
Ian Hatton: am my number one job every day. I'm not my only job.
Ian Hatton: But it starts with self leadership and then goes external. You've got
Ian Hatton: to be a little bit. Vulnerable to be able to do that.
Joanne Lockwood: So trust sort of feeds into one of the new buzzwords.
Joanne Lockwood: We're talking about psychological safety, doesn't it? It's making sure that I can
Joanne Lockwood: trust. Me with you, you won't break me.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. And I think vulnerability is key
Ian Hatton: to that, because if we are not vulnerable, how
Ian Hatton: do people trust us? How do they know that it's actually
Ian Hatton: safe? Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: people want to be listened to, they want to be heard, they want to know
Joanne Lockwood: they can speak up. Yes. And if they don't feel they've got a comfortable environment
Joanne Lockwood: where they can do that, and then that's all parts of the life cycle, the
Joanne Lockwood: recruitment phase, the employment phase, the growing phase, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be, you need to be able to have that confidence that you
Joanne Lockwood: matter and you'll be heard. And
Joanne Lockwood: often we find that people start with, this is
Joanne Lockwood: what I think. Do you agree with me? Type sentences,
Joanne Lockwood: not, hey, team, we got a challenge
Joanne Lockwood: here. Who's got some ideas? Right? And
Joanne Lockwood: it's about flipping the leaders there to coach and
Joanne Lockwood: facilitate and to steer. Not to direct
Joanne Lockwood: almost well. One of the big skills there is
Ian Hatton: this almost balance between candour and
Ian Hatton: curiosity. To come in and say,
Joanne Lockwood: I think. We have a problem with our clients. This is the picture as
Ian Hatton: I see it, and I'm basing that on this.
Joanne Lockwood: Evidence, but I don't know if I'm. Seeing the whole
Ian Hatton: picture. So I'd love to hear your opinion and so
Ian Hatton: you're bringing in something quite direct, quite candid, but you're
Ian Hatton: open to the possibility that you might be misinterpreting the
Ian Hatton: data or not have all the data and then you can
Ian Hatton: get the discussion going and others can sort of say, Well, I'm not sure about
Ian Hatton: this interpretation of that. I interpreted that this way. And so you
Ian Hatton: get a much better quality conversation going
Ian Hatton: around the issue. Yeah, I think you're right
Joanne Lockwood: there. Starting off with
Joanne Lockwood: that, what have I missed? Here's my
Joanne Lockwood: perspective. What have I missed? Is kind of the thing I often talk
Joanne Lockwood: about. We spend a lot of our time
Joanne Lockwood: disagreeing with outcomes and I use the.
Joanne Lockwood: Equation E plus R equals O, event reaction,
Joanne Lockwood: outcome. And we spend all of our life in O talking about
Joanne Lockwood: O's and outcomes, and that could be someone's belief system. Whatever it
Joanne Lockwood: may be, but we very. Rarely talk about the plus, which is. The
Joanne Lockwood: perspective of that event or that. Perspective of that situation.
Joanne Lockwood: And I always try and encourage people, if we can start talking about perspectives,
Joanne Lockwood: that's very interesting. Why do you think that, oh, wow, I never thought of that.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell me more about that. So we may not actually align
Joanne Lockwood: outcomes because we don't all vote for the same party. We have different perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: on who the best party is, but we can agree that I see why you
Joanne Lockwood: lean right and I lean left or you're centrist.
Joanne Lockwood: So we can actually be very happy in each other's perspectives without having to agree
Joanne Lockwood: with each other. This is totally
Ian Hatton: correct. One of the things we talk about is functional
Ian Hatton: conflict. Dysfunctional
Ian Hatton: conflict is when there's no conflict. That's dysfunctional,
Ian Hatton: and dysfunctional conflict is when there's rage or war.
Ian Hatton: But somewhere in the middle there is this functional conflict where
Ian Hatton: I have my perspective and then I really can
Ian Hatton: hear your perspective and we go, oh, we've been
Ian Hatton: arguing my outcome, or my solution versus your
Ian Hatton: solution. But now that we're aware of both
Ian Hatton: perspectives, maybe there's a better solution that. Meets
Joanne Lockwood: both of them and that's only possible. And that's
Ian Hatton: functional conflict, that is where the result of the conflict is better
Ian Hatton: than either of the two proposed ideas.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I always say this. My idea is your idea. And there's the
Joanne Lockwood: shared idea, the other, the bigger idea, the joined
Joanne Lockwood: idea. But very often we can't get to that shared idea
Ian Hatton: when we are just talking about the idea, when we talk about what's
Ian Hatton: driving our ideas, what's my perspective? What's my evidence? What am I
Ian Hatton: basing it on? Then we can sort of go, oh, but if
Ian Hatton: we did this, it actually addresses both. And that's the key.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm going to wind up both our memories back to Dublin, the conference we were
Joanne Lockwood: both at. And one thing that I still take away from that was
Joanne Lockwood: the speaker, Jo Berry, who was her father, was
Joanne Lockwood: killed by the IRA, the British IRA, back in
Joanne Lockwood: 1970 or early 80s, whenever it was,
Joanne Lockwood: and how she sat down with the terrorists of the organisations who
Joanne Lockwood: murdered her father. Shocking. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: And the thing I loved about it was the way she resolved that
Joanne Lockwood: in her mind, was, we have to find a shared goal.
Joanne Lockwood: What do we both want to achieve? And in her particular case,
Joanne Lockwood: you got to move past the argument or the fact that someone's killed your father,
Joanne Lockwood: and move to the we want to end conflict as being the shared goal. And
Joanne Lockwood: if you can paint a shared goal, then you can both have that vision and
Joanne Lockwood: work towards it, and then you acknowledge what happened in the past, but
Joanne Lockwood: you move on from it, because what's important is the future and the shared
Joanne Lockwood: goal. Exactly. And it's just
Ian Hatton: such a shocking story, but at the same time
Ian Hatton: gave such hope in
Ian Hatton: restoring and rebuilding and
Ian Hatton: creating a better future. Yeah. It
Joanne Lockwood: does take people to get to the mindset, whereas I don't have to be
Joanne Lockwood: right, I don't have to win. It's not about me
Joanne Lockwood: winning, it's about. We win, we all succeed, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it, Joe? I would venture that one of
Ian Hatton: the number one problems I work with leaders
Ian Hatton: is on the need to be right.
Ian Hatton: I've seen this across South Africa, I've seen this across Africa, I've seen it
Ian Hatton: in the Middle East and I've seen it even with a lot of leaders that
Ian Hatton: I've worked with in Europe, more than 80 countries now, leaders I've worked with.
Ian Hatton: And the fascinating thing is there's this obsession,
Ian Hatton: and I think it's based on insecurity, which is why, for me, consciousness is
Ian Hatton: so vital, this obsession with needing to be right, needing
Ian Hatton: to win arguments. And you could
Ian Hatton: win those battles, but you will lose the war. You'll lose the war of trust,
Ian Hatton: you'll lose the war of engagement, you'll lose the war of leveraging people's
Ian Hatton: genius. You will shut down so much in the
Ian Hatton: process that you'll win these little battles. And
Ian Hatton: to me, one of my biggest arguments as leaders is leadership is not about being
Ian Hatton: right. It's in fact got nothing to do with being right. It's about
Ian Hatton: facilitating people's thinking, it's about facilitating people's
Ian Hatton: growth. And the moment you
Ian Hatton: attach it to your need to be right. But I had a personal
Ian Hatton: encounter with this where when I first started out as
Ian Hatton: a leadership training facilitator, this is some
Ian Hatton: long time ago, and I got on one
Ian Hatton: of my review forms, somebody wrote, Ian's
Ian Hatton: need to be right is. Getting in the way of being a great facilitator.
Ian Hatton: And it was one of the most painful things I'd ever heard in my life.
Ian Hatton: Devastating. But I tell you what, it changed the whole trajectory of
Ian Hatton: my life. That my job is not to be the
Ian Hatton: expert, my job is to facilitate the learning and growth
Ian Hatton: of others. And when we can get away from our
Ian Hatton: attachment to being right, we can create
Ian Hatton: space for our people to think and to bring all
Ian Hatton: of their greatness to the task that we have
Ian Hatton: in front of us. That's interesting. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: When I start my workshops and facilitation sessions, I often say at the beginning,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not here to tell you what to think, I'm not here to tell you
Joanne Lockwood: what to say. All I'm doing is inviting you to
Joanne Lockwood: think. And I'm not here to give you any answers, I'm here to
Joanne Lockwood: give you loads of questions. Exactly. That's the purpose.
Joanne Lockwood: And it really shocks people because sometimes my
Joanne Lockwood: delegate feedback forms, they go, Jo. Was really amazing,
Joanne Lockwood: but she didn't give. Me any tangible answers. And it's like,
Joanne Lockwood: I gave you loads of questions, I gave you loads of thinking opportunities.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's about teach the man to fish and he'll feed himself for the
Joanne Lockwood: rest of his life rather than give him a fish. Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: It's people with thought, isn't it? Yeah.
Ian Hatton: I sometimes get pushback from leaders to say. Well, if all I'm doing is asking
Ian Hatton: questions and I'm not telling people what to do, am I still leading? And
Ian Hatton: then I show them what it means to ask great questions, I show them
Ian Hatton: what it means to listen well. And they suddenly realise this is
Ian Hatton: harder work than just telling people what to do. But it's much more
Ian Hatton: sustainable. It gives me the opportunity that one day I'll be able to take
Ian Hatton: leave, take some vacation, because
Ian Hatton: when I'm doing all the telling, it's all on me. But
Ian Hatton: if I can get my people thinking, if I can be asking them the right
Ian Hatton: questions, and even when it comes to sort of
Ian Hatton: semi sort of disciplinary type issues, where somebody maybe has
Ian Hatton: missed the mark or whatever, asking great questions puts more
Ian Hatton: pressure on them than jumping in and saying, you must, you
Ian Hatton: must. Which kind of puts the focus on the leader
Ian Hatton: instead of having them do the introspection.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I've certainly learned my
Joanne Lockwood: marriage is stronger by adopting
Joanne Lockwood: that approach, not having to be right. I ask questions,
Joanne Lockwood: I seek clarification. So if I have a different perspective,
Joanne Lockwood: I try and phrase it as a. Question and
Joanne Lockwood: invite a conversation. And it frustrates the bejesus
Joanne Lockwood: at my. Wife because she gets really frustrated that I won't
Joanne Lockwood: agree with her sometimes and I just come up with loads of questions.
Joanne Lockwood: Can't you just agree with me for once? I said, well, if I don't agree
Joanne Lockwood: with you, what do you want me to do? Do you just go, yes,
Joanne Lockwood: dear, or sometimes I'd like that. Yes, please. I go,
Joanne Lockwood: okay. Now I say, is this a yes, dear question or is this
Joanne Lockwood: a let's have a discussion question? We're
Joanne Lockwood: quite playful with it, but yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: if you have this stance where you. Change people with
Joanne Lockwood: questions, and I don't. Mean aggressively challenged, I'm just saying, wow, that's
Joanne Lockwood: interesting. I never thought of it that way. Tell me more.
Joanne Lockwood: It allows you to get that person to even examine their own belief
Joanne Lockwood: system. Exactly. That they've probably thought about superficially.
Joanne Lockwood: And certainly where we got polarised debates.
Joanne Lockwood: As I say, vaccinations, not vaccinations. That's a kind of a global thing, wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Asking someone why they think it's
Joanne Lockwood: important not to be vaccinated or what that means, or
Joanne Lockwood: just tell me more. Tell me. Oh, wow, it's fascinating. Tell me more. And you
Joanne Lockwood: find out that some of the debates are waffer thin and
Joanne Lockwood: there's no depth to them. They're just very superficial
Joanne Lockwood: straw man type arguments or contradictory arguments.
Joanne Lockwood: And it could be very good way of engaging with somebody because they
Joanne Lockwood: end up walking off going, oh, I can't tell you. I can't talk to you
Joanne Lockwood: anyway. Okay. And I keep doing that
Joanne Lockwood: with people trying to find the answer. If you explain this to me,
Joanne Lockwood: I'd love you to turn me, I'd love you to persuade me that I'm
Joanne Lockwood: wrong or have my views is different,
Joanne Lockwood: I actually ask people to challenge me on these things because I want to find.
Joanne Lockwood: Out the answer that I've missed. And that's the challenge,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? I totally agree with you. And in this very
Ian Hatton: polarised world, which seems to currently becoming almost more
Ian Hatton: polarised, we need the conversations and both
Ian Hatton: sides see to be unwilling.
Ian Hatton: And the whole for me of consciousness is being conscious
Ian Hatton: that I might be. Wrong and that it's okay
Joanne Lockwood: and that. I can be influenceable. If
Ian Hatton: we are not as leaders listening. In a
Joanne Lockwood: way where we could be. Influenced then are we really
Ian Hatton: listening or is it an insincere thing? So
Ian Hatton: that comes back to an authenticity and a consciousness.
Ian Hatton: And it's not to say that I'm suddenly wishywashy about what I
Ian Hatton: believe, it's simply saying that
Ian Hatton: I understand that there's a spectrum and it would be really useful for
Ian Hatton: me to understand the bits that are different from my own and.
Joanne Lockwood: That'S going to make me a better leader. And it's really hard
Joanne Lockwood: to occupy the centre ground or centre risk ground because there's this
Joanne Lockwood: polarisation between one opinion at the edge and
Joanne Lockwood: then the other opinion on the other edge and both those two opinions are trying
Joanne Lockwood: to drag you to their corner. So being in the centre
Joanne Lockwood: almost people say well, don't be wishy washy, make a decision, come be
Joanne Lockwood: influenced by me because they want to draw people into their crowd. And
Joanne Lockwood: I find that trying to have centrist type arguments with people
Joanne Lockwood: that they're nervous because they don't necessarily have a view
Joanne Lockwood: or they're being shouted at by other people and it's kind
Joanne Lockwood: of uncomfortable to say actually I don't have an opinion. I don't know, I'm trying
Joanne Lockwood: to find. Out more in a balanced way but. Then as soon as you try
Joanne Lockwood: and find out more there's a momentum to. Suck you away from the centre
Joanne Lockwood: again. Yes. What I'm finding more and more
Ian Hatton: with many of these things is that we can get so focused on
Ian Hatton: the two poles that maybe where we really don't. Want it, we
Joanne Lockwood: really want to be. Is not in the middle but in a third position. A
Ian Hatton: position that is something new, a new way of thinking, a new
Ian Hatton: way of looking at some of these things.
Ian Hatton: And I don't know that it's in the centre because the centre just feels like
Ian Hatton: a compromise sometimes and it feels to me
Ian Hatton: like can we transcend, can we get to another
Ian Hatton: level in this argument? Is there another position we could take
Ian Hatton: that is different from both of these. Positions or
Joanne Lockwood: recognising that both positions have. A perspective that is valid
Joanne Lockwood: and trying to work out it's trying to rationalise those two valid perspectives.
Joanne Lockwood: And I mean the example I use often is going back to the vax
Joanne Lockwood: antivax thing is Novak Djokovic,
Joanne Lockwood: the Fiasco, when he was in Australia and he was quarantined and they kicked him
Joanne Lockwood: out, et cetera, it could barred him in the open. And I was determined not
Joanne Lockwood: to like him because I'm vax. I'm pro vax
Joanne Lockwood: and he was kind of anti. And I saw an interview with him
Joanne Lockwood: and the bit that gave me that. As you say, that third
Joanne Lockwood: position, was. When he said, I want agency
Joanne Lockwood: over my own body. I want to decide what I put into my
Joanne Lockwood: body. And I went, yes, human. Right. Human right.
Joanne Lockwood: Agency. Okay, I get it. I don't agree with your
Joanne Lockwood: outcome, but I agree with your right for agency. And you can argue,
Joanne Lockwood: yes, but you're doing stuff to other people. I don't care what else he's doing.
Joanne Lockwood: But he has the right to agency. I can take that, as you say, that
Joanne Lockwood: third position, that aerial view and go, okay, so how can
Joanne Lockwood: we get agency to marry with
Joanne Lockwood: society, et cetera, et cetera? Then we're having a different
Joanne Lockwood: discussion, aren't we? We're not angry with him. We're trying to work out how
Joanne Lockwood: that can work. Exactly. And
Ian Hatton: that's getting to that other solution that
Ian Hatton: doesn't require somebody to compromise their rights
Ian Hatton: or their strong beliefs, but it allows them to
Ian Hatton: still engage with the. Question and the issue and the implications of
Joanne Lockwood: it. Yeah. And they explained the rules
Joanne Lockwood: and he said, okay, I have agency, my decision is to leave.
Joanne Lockwood: Goodbye, thank you. He had a choice, so we weren't forcing
Joanne Lockwood: him out. We said, well, this is the option, I think, by giving people
Joanne Lockwood: those options and the rules, if you like a
Joanne Lockwood: society or humanity that we have at this time, and then
Joanne Lockwood: you have a choice to opt in or opt out. And there are consequences of
Joanne Lockwood: both, but you have that choice. Exactly. Joe
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. You don't show any
Joanne Lockwood: malice towards the person. You just go,
Joanne Lockwood: that's your choice. That's your choice. And that, to me,
Ian Hatton: again, is conscious leadership. It's the idea of
Ian Hatton: finding that key, that thing that you go, Actually, I can
Ian Hatton: align with that. I can align with that.
Ian Hatton: And imagine in the workplace, we've got so much
Ian Hatton: diversity. How do you build a team where you may even
Ian Hatton: find on the team, you've got these two very polarising,
Ian Hatton: different perspectives. Our job as
Ian Hatton: leaders is to transcend that and go, yes, I may have an
Ian Hatton: opinion, but what is the truth of you
Ian Hatton: that we can accept and we can understand? Oh, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: you have that right and we welcome it.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you get any or a lot of pushback
Joanne Lockwood: on the kind of the rejection of inclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: the Wokism brand, this is all too woke, this
Joanne Lockwood: is all too politically correct, or you can't use humour anymore.
Joanne Lockwood: Here comes Joe. Here comes Ian. I've got to be careful what I say around
Joanne Lockwood: them. Do you get a lot of that still with leadership?
Ian Hatton: Totally. And I'll give you an example. I was working with a group of senior
Ian Hatton: leaders in a financial institution in I think it was
Ian Hatton: December, november. December, and one of
Ian Hatton: them actually just came in the next day, and he was going, it sounds like
Ian Hatton: what you're trying to promote is niceness, that we should be nicer
Ian Hatton: people, but we've got some work to do, and we seem to be so
Ian Hatton: focused on getting these things, all these other things in place that
Ian Hatton: we've lost sight of.
Ian Hatton: We've got a pressure, we've got to deliver.
Ian Hatton: And for me it sparked perhaps the
Ian Hatton: best conversation that we had in the two days we worked together. Because
Ian Hatton: what resulted was this is not either or, it's both.
Ian Hatton: And we are not creating places of inclusion so that everybody
Ian Hatton: can be happy and smiley and do nothing. We are creating
Ian Hatton: places of inclusion to actually bring out the best in each
Ian Hatton: person. And we talked about how we could do that and
Ian Hatton: specifically talking about the telling style of
Ian Hatton: leadership versus the asking style and saying, okay,
Ian Hatton: how do we make sure that if we're doing an asking style of leadership
Ian Hatton: that it actually increases people's engagement towards
Ian Hatton: the task? This is not I'm asking because I'm going to be
Ian Hatton: nice. I don't believe niceness has a
Ian Hatton: place in leadership. Warmth, yes. Curiosity,
Ian Hatton: yes. Inclusivity humanity, yes. But
Ian Hatton: niceness. My ultimate
Ian Hatton: analogy for leadership, and people really don't like this, but my
Ian Hatton: ultimate analogy for leadership is that leadership is love. What people
Ian Hatton: immediately then assume is that I'm talking about being nice.
Ian Hatton: No, it's loving to confront people.
Ian Hatton: It's loving to talk about where they've
Ian Hatton: missed a target because to not talk about that to me, is not an act,
Ian Hatton: is the opposite of love. To just sort of
Ian Hatton: smooth things over and to not ever confront issues, that to me is not
Ian Hatton: love. And so this whole idea of yes,
Ian Hatton: we are talking about people being able to bring their whole selves to
Ian Hatton: work in order to work, not in order to
Ian Hatton: now not actually work. And that, to me,
Ian Hatton: once people get that whole argument, they suddenly realise that
Ian Hatton: that is true. Leadership is where people can bring them
Ian Hatton: their full selves and we can achieve. The task,
Joanne Lockwood: we can achieve the goals. And you can apply that to being a
Joanne Lockwood: parent, can't you? Exactly that. You have love
Joanne Lockwood: for your children, ultimate. Love for your children, but you're not always
Joanne Lockwood: nice. You're a coach or you're a mentor, you're a taskmaster or
Joanne Lockwood: mistress. You're there to achieve the objective, which is
Joanne Lockwood: a fantastic human being who can have a fantastic life
Joanne Lockwood: and contribute to the world. And sometimes that needs
Joanne Lockwood: focus and direction and coaching
Joanne Lockwood: and correction and all those various things. One of my
Ian Hatton: favourite sayings about parenting and, and my, my children are
Ian Hatton: grown up and I have a couple of grandchildren now, but one of my
Ian Hatton: favourite sayings about parenting is it's our it's not our job to raise
Ian Hatton: children, it's our job to raise adults, people who can
Ian Hatton: behave in the adult world. And that
Ian Hatton: means, for example, as you said earlier, getting people
Ian Hatton: to think that our job is raising people who know
Ian Hatton: how to think. And that's an adult response, people who know how
Ian Hatton: to think, people who can ask the difficult questions.
Ian Hatton: And that you do not get by being nice. You get that
Ian Hatton: by getting people thinking, which is asking the very
Ian Hatton: difficult questions. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know about you, but I love someone to come up and challenge me
Joanne Lockwood: with the question. You go, wow, I don't have
Joanne Lockwood: an answer. No, I don't have an answer. Leave that one with me. I
Joanne Lockwood: want to do some ticket on that. That's okay. I totally
Joanne Lockwood: agree. If we think we're supposed to have all the answers all the time,
Ian Hatton: I think it actually communicates a lack of
Ian Hatton: teachability. And I think that people really respect.
Joanne Lockwood: That kind of a response.
Joanne Lockwood: If you don't mind, let me ask you a bit about South Africa, because that's
Joanne Lockwood: where you're based, that's where your home is. South Africa as a country has
Joanne Lockwood: been on a huge journey over the last 20, 30, 40 years. You
Joanne Lockwood: mentioned Nelson Mandela and you swapped from white minority rule to
Joanne Lockwood: black majority rule. And we've talked about a lot of things around
Joanne Lockwood: forgiveness, acceptance and moving on. It's been a
Joanne Lockwood: tough well, generation, I guess.
Joanne Lockwood: What lessons are being learned as a society from this?
Ian Hatton: Well, I think that one of the lessons is that the
Ian Hatton: real healing is is at a much deeper level than, you
Ian Hatton: know, the sort of smoothing over the niceness thing, you know. So
Ian Hatton: we we had our first fully democratic elections
Ian Hatton: in 94, and in 95 we won the
Ian Hatton: Rugby World Cup. And it was such a
Ian Hatton: euphoric sort of moment of people of all colours
Ian Hatton: dancing in the streets together and this sense of unity.
Ian Hatton: And we called it the rainbow nation. And there was this
Ian Hatton: incredible but many of the underlying issues have
Ian Hatton: not yet been addressed and where we've been
Ian Hatton: going ever since has been getting to the real
Ian Hatton: things. And I love it now when
Ian Hatton: I see a lot of integration and I walk into
Ian Hatton: a restaurant and half the tables are mixed race and
Ian Hatton: this sort of thing. There's a lot of inclusion and there's a lot of acceptance,
Ian Hatton: but there's still extremism, of course, on both sides,
Ian Hatton: but. The sort of papering over
Joanne Lockwood: and assuming. That because we won the World Cup and we can dance and
Ian Hatton: celebrate together, that all the problems are now gone. It's
Ian Hatton: just so untrue. And we still see
Ian Hatton: examples where there is exclusion. We still see examples
Ian Hatton: where.
Joanne Lockwood: There'S this. Automatic thinking that people are stuck
Ian Hatton: in. And I'll give you a very simple example. I, a few years ago,
Ian Hatton: was invited to give a talk in one of the traditionally
Ian Hatton: very black areas, township areas, and
Ian Hatton: literally the children were running up and touching my skin
Ian Hatton: because they'd never actually seen a white person in person
Ian Hatton: before. And it's just horrifying to realise
Ian Hatton: that many years later, we still have so much
Ian Hatton: separation in so many
Ian Hatton: examples as well. Let me give you a very simple example.
Ian Hatton: In most of our more European traditions,
Ian Hatton: looking someone in the eye is a sign of respect.
Ian Hatton: If somebody senior walks in and you stand up, that's a sign of
Ian Hatton: respect. In in many of the African traditions,
Ian Hatton: it's the exact opposite. Looking someone in the eye is
Ian Hatton: arrogant. You make yourself small in
Ian Hatton: the presence of an important person. You don't stand in their
Ian Hatton: presence. And so these sort of things,
Ian Hatton: you can't expect everybody to move from one part to
Ian Hatton: another part. And these people never do any moving. There's got
Ian Hatton: to be a movement in both directions and a beginning of
Ian Hatton: an understanding. And that journey for us is not
Ian Hatton: over. I remember having a conversation with somebody in the
Ian Hatton: 90s when we had had our first democratic movements
Ian Hatton: and elections and saying, there are facets of
Ian Hatton: where we are going as a country that's going to be multigenerational before it's
Ian Hatton: going to be resolved. The sort of thinking
Ian Hatton: because a lot of people think, oh, well, we had the apartheid government from
Ian Hatton: 1948 until
Ian Hatton: 94, but the reality is that even under
Ian Hatton: the previous government, there was not fairness
Ian Hatton: and inclusion and obviously,
Ian Hatton: under colonial rule there wasn't. It
Ian Hatton: was the dominant forces. And that's not a
Ian Hatton: British South Africa thing. There was the Dutch before and if you look over
Ian Hatton: Africa, the French, the Belgians, the Germans, there
Ian Hatton: was a lot of that sort of thing. And the
Joanne Lockwood: idea of being open to. Learn from each other, the
Ian Hatton: idea to be asking the difficult questions
Ian Hatton: is so important. The
Ian Hatton: idea of looking and seeing what are
Ian Hatton: the incredible
Ian Hatton: strengths that a multicultural
Ian Hatton: society can bring and inclusivity that we can
Ian Hatton: have. Because there are facets, for example, in leadership,
Ian Hatton: where some of the African traditional
Ian Hatton: elements of leadership are so
Ian Hatton: relevant, not just to better
Ian Hatton: leadership in the world, but better leadership today
Ian Hatton: because they are more aligned with
Ian Hatton: the Gen Z that we were talking about earlier on. There are some
Ian Hatton: elements there where we suddenly realise, wow, but
Ian Hatton: these traditional forms. Of leadership are
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly relevant. We think of them as old but they're
Joanne Lockwood: actually new. Yeah, I mean
Joanne Lockwood: leadership and humanity has been what, around for 5000 thousand years or
Joanne Lockwood: whatever it is. Our current version of it was
Joanne Lockwood: invented by white people in the Western world, wasn't it?
Ian Hatton: Exactly. Who says we're right? I would
Joanne Lockwood: say there's a lot more depth and breadth of leadership scut styles from
Joanne Lockwood: around the world than there is just in, as you say, the colonial past
Joanne Lockwood: we need to move away from.
Ian Hatton: Exactly. It's fascinating. We need
Joanne Lockwood: to listen to each other. Yeah I had the
Joanne Lockwood: privilege to meet Lek Voensa in
Joanne Lockwood: Poland when I was there back in the late ninety s. And
Joanne Lockwood: for those who don't know, Lek Voenza was the founder of Solidarity, who
Joanne Lockwood: was the movement that some credit with
Joanne Lockwood: bringing down the Berlin Wall and the fall of communism. Exactly. And the ship
Joanne Lockwood: workers and I remember him doing the talk he
Joanne Lockwood: gave saying that many people in Poland see
Joanne Lockwood: him as an enemy, they see him as. A
Joanne Lockwood: destroyer, because you have to go. Almost go
Joanne Lockwood: backwards to go forwards. You have to unlearn, you have to
Joanne Lockwood: remove the infrastructure, you have to remove all these constructs
Joanne Lockwood: that exist in order to move forward. And I'm guessing that's
Joanne Lockwood: the painful part that maybe your own nation is going through.
Joanne Lockwood: You have to unlearn. And maybe that's the other barrier that leaders have.
Joanne Lockwood: They have to unlearn their biases, they. Have to
Joanne Lockwood: unlearn their methodology in order. To embrace new
Joanne Lockwood: ideas. Yeah, it's so similar to the generational
Ian Hatton: argument we were talking about earlier on, where we need to unlearn the ways
Ian Hatton: of leading because they're not going to work with this new generation. And what can
Ian Hatton: we learn from them? What can we learn from the diversity that is global?
Ian Hatton: I have a client who's just finished a comprehensive programme
Ian Hatton: with us and she's based in Malaysia and
Ian Hatton: she was astounded to realise some of the problems that we have in
Ian Hatton: Africa, how similar they are in Malaysia, where
Ian Hatton: they also went through things like, we have
Ian Hatton: our Black Economic Empowerment and people kind of go, oh, well, this is
Ian Hatton: reverse racism, and things like this. And and she's talking about the
Ian Hatton: dignity and the similar challenges that they faced in
Ian Hatton: Malaysia, being independent and trying to kind of
Ian Hatton: reverse a lot of the traditional thinking. And it's mindsets on
Ian Hatton: both sides that need to shift.
Ian Hatton: And we're just realising how much we have in common and some of the conversations
Ian Hatton: that have been having, because I have in my team, obviously,
Ian Hatton: people of colour and the conversations between
Ian Hatton: her and my people of colour and going, we have
Ian Hatton: the same experience and what can we learn from each
Ian Hatton: other and how can we then move things forward?
Joanne Lockwood: That's fascinating. It just shows that
Joanne Lockwood: sharing of experiences. With people from different perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: actually brings together and either reinforce some of
Joanne Lockwood: our thoughts and changes. Yeah, I think it is important and
Joanne Lockwood: I think one of the things I've learned over the last four or five years
Joanne Lockwood: is more talking, more listening. Well, more listening mainly, but
Joanne Lockwood: not being afraid. I mean, one of the reasons I found this podcast, it gave
Joanne Lockwood: me a good excuse to talk to people from all around the world and hear
Joanne Lockwood: different perspectives. And as a host, I
Joanne Lockwood: try and ask most of the questions and not give many of my opinions. So
Joanne Lockwood: for me, it's an excellent way of seeking dean perspectives on the world.
Joanne Lockwood: So I do appreciate that. Indeed. We've been chatting
Joanne Lockwood: for over an hour now before we press the record button in the green
Joanne Lockwood: room. And it's been absolutely amazing talking to you and getting to know you
Joanne Lockwood: better. I can't wait for us to meet face to face somewhere else in the
Joanne Lockwood: world. Maybe Bali in a couple of years time. Or who knows, maybe
Joanne Lockwood: I'll get a trip to South Africa one day and I'll come and knock on
Joanne Lockwood: your door. So, you told me you've got a book coming out
Joanne Lockwood: sometime in 2023. Do you want to tell us a. Bit about that and how
Joanne Lockwood: to get hold of you? Yes. So it's actually my first
Ian Hatton: book of but there are three coming over the next two years, but the first
Ian Hatton: one is called Lead Like Morpheus The Genius of Conscious
Ian Hatton: Leadership. And that one will be out sort of in the
Ian Hatton: March April time frame here in 2023.
Ian Hatton: And I'm very excited about that and. It'S
Joanne Lockwood: really bringing a lot I seem. To have
Joanne Lockwood: lost Ian.
Joanne Lockwood: Hi, Ian. Welcome back. I thought we'd lost you for good there. You got sucked
Joanne Lockwood: into the Matrix or something. So welcome back. I think when when you
Joanne Lockwood: disappeared, we. Were talking, I just asked you about your book and how people get
Joanne Lockwood: hold of you. Do you want to just remind us?
Ian Hatton: Yes, indeed. So my book coming out in a few months time is Lead
Ian Hatton: Like Morpheus the Genius of Conscious Leadership. And
Ian Hatton: that's just bringing out all the theory of this inner journey of a
Ian Hatton: leader, resulting in external results and legacy that
Ian Hatton: they can leave behind. So that's what the book is all about. And the best
Ian Hatton: way to people to get hold of me is on LinkedIn. So in LinkedIn,
Ian Hatton: it's simply annhattan one word, very easy to get hold
Ian Hatton: of me that particular way. And then what
Ian Hatton: you might find up there is there's a little QR code
Ian Hatton: for doing a free assessment, a free conscious leadership assessment that
Ian Hatton: we have, which is called the Leadership Egg, the
Ian Hatton: essence growth gap assessment. And that's a free little assessment that people can
Ian Hatton: do. But, yeah, LinkedIn is the best way. To get hold of me.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Many. Thanks, Ian. I'm sure everyone
Joanne Lockwood: listening will agree there's much inspiration and stuff to ponder there
Joanne Lockwood: and also some challenging perspective, which is fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: So, a huge thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in, for listening this
Joanne Lockwood: far. Please do subscribe, if you're not already, to keep updates on
Joanne Lockwood: future episodes of the Inclusion Bytes podcast. That's bit,
Joanne Lockwood: yes. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues, share the
Joanne Lockwood: love. I have a number of other exciting guests. Can they be more exciting? I
Joanne Lockwood: have no idea. You have to find out number of other exciting guests lined up
Joanne Lockwood: that I'm sure you'd be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months.
Joanne Lockwood: Of course, if you'd like to be a guest, I'd love to hear from you,
Joanne Lockwood: as I would also welcome any comments, feedback or suggestions. Just drop me
Joanne Lockwood: an email to Jo dot Lockwood at seechangehappen dot
Joanne Lockwood: co dot uk let me how we can improve, if that's possible.
Joanne Lockwood: So, finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. And it's been an
Joanne Lockwood: absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next
Joanne Lockwood: time.
Joanne Lockwood: Bye.