WEBVTT 00:00:00.330 --> 00:00:03.870 You. Hello, 00:00:03.940 --> 00:00:07.742 everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the 00:00:07.796 --> 00:00:11.646 Inclusion Bites Podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a 00:00:11.668 --> 00:00:15.386 number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject 00:00:15.418 --> 00:00:19.262 of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better 00:00:19.316 --> 00:00:22.798 place for everyone to thrive. Join me in the 00:00:22.804 --> 00:00:25.366 future, then please do drop me a line. 00:00:25.508 --> 00:00:28.982 Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 00:00:29.036 --> 00:00:32.422 that's S double E Change Happen dot co 00:00:32.476 --> 00:00:36.166 dot uk. You can catch up with all 00:00:36.188 --> 00:00:39.606 the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual 00:00:39.638 --> 00:00:43.478 places. So, plug in your headphones, grab a decaf 00:00:43.574 --> 00:00:47.082 and let's get going. Today is 00:00:47.136 --> 00:00:50.010 Episode 77 with the title 00:00:50.370 --> 00:00:54.186 Breathe. I have the absolute honor and privilege 00:00:54.218 --> 00:00:57.998 to welcome Jamie Reed. Jamie describes himself as a 00:00:58.004 --> 00:01:01.470 vocal coach and vocal health expert. 00:01:02.050 --> 00:01:05.554 When I asked Jamie to describe his superpower, he said that he 00:01:05.592 --> 00:01:09.010 believes not only does everyone have a beautiful voice, 00:01:09.350 --> 00:01:12.020 but most importantly, that it should be heard 00:01:12.550 --> 00:01:16.050 fiercely and proudly. Hello, 00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:19.894 Jamie. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Joanne. I'm really 00:01:19.932 --> 00:01:23.686 delighted to be here. I'm looking forward to it. Yes, we've talked about this 00:01:23.708 --> 00:01:26.690 for so many months now and we finally got around to it. Excellent. 00:01:26.850 --> 00:01:30.314 Jamie, why is breathing so 00:01:30.352 --> 00:01:33.978 important? So, 00:01:34.144 --> 00:01:37.770 somebody much wiser than me once said, life 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:41.670 is not measured in years, it's measured in breaths. And I think that's a 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:45.450 really beautiful thing. Breathing is the fuel supply 00:01:45.530 --> 00:01:49.342 for the voice, it's the fuel supply for life. And 00:01:49.396 --> 00:01:52.930 we all share the same breath, we all share the same air and 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.220 oxygen. So it's a very 00:01:56.310 --> 00:02:00.114 equal, very available thing 00:02:00.152 --> 00:02:03.922 that all of us have and all of us need and 00:02:03.976 --> 00:02:07.266 breath. As a vocal coach, so I began my career as an actor and as 00:02:07.288 --> 00:02:11.074 a performer and moved into coaching about 18 years ago. And breath 00:02:11.122 --> 00:02:14.934 is so fundamental to the way that we vocalize and how 00:02:14.972 --> 00:02:18.742 we produce our voice and how we express ourselves that 00:02:18.796 --> 00:02:21.466 it just felt so integral and so important. 00:02:21.568 --> 00:02:25.322 That's why the word was there in the text 00:02:25.376 --> 00:02:28.060 that I sent over. That's why it popped out so much, I think. 00:02:28.670 --> 00:02:32.346 Yeah, it resonated straight with me because as a professional 00:02:32.378 --> 00:02:36.110 speaker, and even before I was a professional speaker, when I was maybe a public 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:39.706 speaker or a corporate speaker in the corporate 00:02:39.738 --> 00:02:43.374 world, I'd often find that I forget to 00:02:43.412 --> 00:02:46.946 breathe. I'd end up, in this time, myself into or 00:02:46.968 --> 00:02:50.546 painted myself to the corner where I had no breath left and 00:02:50.648 --> 00:02:54.482 all my anxiety levels or my panic mechanism kicked in. 00:02:54.616 --> 00:02:58.326 And often think that many people who have an 00:02:58.348 --> 00:03:02.194 anxiety or a fear of public speaking worry 00:03:02.242 --> 00:03:05.800 about losing their breath or not being able to get their words out. 00:03:06.410 --> 00:03:09.686 Yeah, it's such a primal thing, it's such an important thing and 00:03:09.708 --> 00:03:13.194 nobody really focuses on it day to day. We're getting 00:03:13.232 --> 00:03:16.890 much better in the world at large about being aware of the 00:03:17.040 --> 00:03:20.746 usefulness and the benefits of mindfulness and meditation and so on. But by 00:03:20.768 --> 00:03:23.934 and large, nobody's ever thought about 00:03:24.052 --> 00:03:27.806 breathing because we just do it luckily. I mean, we'd be in trouble if we 00:03:27.828 --> 00:03:31.546 didn't. But as you say, when you come under pressure, 00:03:31.738 --> 00:03:35.562 actually the breath, because it's part of the cardiovascular 00:03:35.626 --> 00:03:39.346 system, if the breathing speeds up or shallows, then the heart rate speeds up or 00:03:39.368 --> 00:03:43.106 shallows. And those things have an impact on how we feel. And how we 00:03:43.128 --> 00:03:46.834 feel has a huge impact on how we express ourselves and what we say 00:03:46.872 --> 00:03:50.646 and how we say it. And actually, I think 00:03:50.668 --> 00:03:54.040 that's the big thing for me as a vocal coach, because I work with 00:03:55.050 --> 00:03:58.834 genuinely anyone with a voice. So I've worked with everything from opera singers 00:03:58.882 --> 00:04:02.534 to rabbis, to people with vocal health difficulties, 00:04:02.582 --> 00:04:06.202 to business CEOs to actors. I mean, you name it. 00:04:06.336 --> 00:04:10.074 I do all kinds of different work with voices. And actually, how you feel 00:04:10.112 --> 00:04:13.686 about yourself affects the way that you breathe, 00:04:13.718 --> 00:04:17.326 affects the way that you speak, and therefore affects the way that you're perceived. And 00:04:17.348 --> 00:04:21.194 it's such an important interface for human beings. It's a very tribal 00:04:21.242 --> 00:04:25.090 behavior. Voice. We hear a voice and decide actually if this person 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:28.994 belongs to our tribe or us to theirs, is this somebody I can 00:04:29.032 --> 00:04:32.786 connect with? It's where we get accents and dialects and you 00:04:32.808 --> 00:04:36.546 hear that kind of corporate boardroom thing where the voice goes down 00:04:36.568 --> 00:04:40.178 here somewhere, where everyone's kind of in that space. Or you hear the oh, it's 00:04:40.194 --> 00:04:43.686 a new baby. Oh, that's lovely. And that kind of space in there. And 00:04:43.868 --> 00:04:47.394 it's such an emotional response and such a primal 00:04:47.442 --> 00:04:51.066 response that if we can get control over it, we 00:04:51.088 --> 00:04:54.794 can really start to feel in in control of how 00:04:54.832 --> 00:04:58.598 we express ourselves and how we're perceived and how our emotions are expressed 00:04:58.614 --> 00:05:02.254 and perceived as well. That's so true. I'm thinking about that. 00:05:02.372 --> 00:05:05.870 We can often our pitch of our voice can increase 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:09.966 as our anxiety or our panic, or when we're not 00:05:09.988 --> 00:05:13.714 maybe emotionally in control of ourselves. And that can lead us 00:05:13.752 --> 00:05:16.942 to sound less credible or less capable 00:05:17.006 --> 00:05:20.542 because we associate deep, steady 00:05:20.606 --> 00:05:24.258 resonance with authority. Yeah, 00:05:24.424 --> 00:05:27.330 which is a curious thing in and of itself. There was a piece of research 00:05:27.400 --> 00:05:31.174 last year that I was reading not that long ago that 00:05:31.212 --> 00:05:34.774 showed that a drop of only about 25 Hz, which is a very 00:05:34.812 --> 00:05:38.594 small drop in pitch in the voice amongst 00:05:38.642 --> 00:05:42.314 CEOs in the US. Is associated with 00:05:42.352 --> 00:05:46.090 an extra $187,000 of income for that person 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.866 per year and something in the order of an increase of 00:05:49.888 --> 00:05:53.662 about $400,000 in the size of the business that they run. 00:05:53.796 --> 00:05:57.294 And that's just 25 Hz, which I found that really 00:05:57.332 --> 00:06:01.066 interesting. But also, I don't know, it's slightly jarred 00:06:01.098 --> 00:06:04.606 for me because a lot of what I people come in with the idea that 00:06:04.628 --> 00:06:07.806 there's a right or a wrong way to speak and that just isn't true. That's 00:06:07.838 --> 00:06:11.474 a hangover from the idea of RP received pronunciation when 00:06:11.512 --> 00:06:14.818 every on the BBC all spoke like this welcome to the BBC Light Service. And 00:06:14.904 --> 00:06:17.460 you didn't hear regional dialects, really, until 00:06:18.550 --> 00:06:22.374 your man from Big Brother in 1999, D 44 in the Big Brother house. 00:06:22.412 --> 00:06:26.134 And everyone kind of went, oh, wow, what's that? And actually, that 00:06:26.172 --> 00:06:30.006 sense of right and wrong is something that we really carry. Oh, in this 00:06:30.028 --> 00:06:33.706 space, I need to be this person. So I get so many 00:06:33.888 --> 00:06:37.674 women in business coming in to the studio to work with me or 00:06:37.712 --> 00:06:41.514 working online with me, saying, oh, I need a lower voice because I'm surrounded by 00:06:41.552 --> 00:06:45.214 men and I've got to be able to command authority. And 00:06:45.252 --> 00:06:48.254 although part of the work is in that area, the bigger part of the work 00:06:48.292 --> 00:06:51.806 with those clients is helping them to feel the authority and the 00:06:51.828 --> 00:06:55.554 authenticity in the voice that they already have and owning their 00:06:55.592 --> 00:06:59.442 presence. So that actually that audience learns to listen to whatever 00:06:59.496 --> 00:07:03.010 voice they're hearing, rather than just assuming that this lower pitch range 00:07:03.350 --> 00:07:07.086 is right in inverted commas in that environment. I get a bit of a beam 00:07:07.118 --> 00:07:10.360 up on it about it. Joanne. Yeah, I agree. 00:07:11.450 --> 00:07:15.094 As you know, I'm a transgender woman. I transitioned about six 00:07:15.132 --> 00:07:18.966 years ago. And at the time, I was in this big dilemma about my 00:07:18.988 --> 00:07:22.326 voice because, as you said, it's a critical part of one of those primary 00:07:22.358 --> 00:07:25.930 senses of how we categorize people and put them into a box 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.226 and assess their worth or my tribe or not my 00:07:29.248 --> 00:07:32.902 tribe. And I wrestled 00:07:32.966 --> 00:07:35.678 long and hard about my voice, whether I could be a professional speaker, but I 00:07:35.684 --> 00:07:39.326 could be taken seriously. And I decided one day I was just going 00:07:39.348 --> 00:07:42.110 to. It's my voice, it's my voice. 00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:46.018 Why try and educate or train it or do it 00:07:46.024 --> 00:07:49.554 differently? Because it's another cognitive load you have to deal 00:07:49.592 --> 00:07:53.266 with. I appreciate after time, after you trained it, 00:07:53.288 --> 00:07:56.766 maybe after months and months and months, it becomes more natural. But I just 00:07:56.808 --> 00:08:00.166 decided hey. And I think the awesome thing you just said there 00:08:00.188 --> 00:08:03.846 was about how that pitch gives a 00:08:03.868 --> 00:08:07.718 certain level of authority as well. And for me, it's worked as a 00:08:07.724 --> 00:08:11.546 bit of a shock and awe tactic. So I can stand on stage and just 00:08:11.648 --> 00:08:15.226 hold the room before I speak. And then when I 00:08:15.248 --> 00:08:19.020 speak, people kind of look at me and go, wow, where did that come from? 00:08:19.790 --> 00:08:21.820 I play it to my advantage sometimes. 00:08:23.230 --> 00:08:27.038 Yeah, absolutely. And as I say, the authenticity thing is the big part of 00:08:27.044 --> 00:08:30.766 it. And actually, the fact that you had that thought and went, do I need 00:08:30.788 --> 00:08:34.002 to do something about this? Actually, no, I don't. This is my voice. It means 00:08:34.056 --> 00:08:37.554 something to me. That's the thought 00:08:37.672 --> 00:08:41.406 that is more important than any other in the vocal aspect, 00:08:41.598 --> 00:08:45.234 especially for trans and nonbinary clients that I work with, who may be 00:08:45.272 --> 00:08:48.990 beginning to question how the world might view them or if they're in 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:52.754 the process of transitioning. Sometimes the voice can be a hindrance, 00:08:52.802 --> 00:08:55.846 and sometimes, as you say, it can be something where you go, actually, no, this 00:08:55.868 --> 00:08:59.334 is really authentically me. I already know this part of myself so 00:08:59.372 --> 00:09:02.774 well that I don't want to change it, but maybe I do want to optimize 00:09:02.822 --> 00:09:06.122 it, or maybe I want to be able to have a wider range of color 00:09:06.176 --> 00:09:09.946 in my voice, whatever the particular thing is. Nine out 00:09:09.968 --> 00:09:13.754 of ten times people come into the room with one idea of 00:09:13.792 --> 00:09:17.326 what they perceive the problem to be, and again, I use heavy inverted commas around 00:09:17.348 --> 00:09:21.066 the idea of the problem, and actually, they leave with a fresh understanding 00:09:21.098 --> 00:09:24.670 of going, oh, actually, no, I thought it was this. But now, having 00:09:24.740 --> 00:09:27.780 talked it through and understood a bit more about the process, 00:09:29.350 --> 00:09:33.026 it's often a really different picture that they leave with, which is a great part 00:09:33.048 --> 00:09:36.646 of the work. I love that. Yeah, don't be wrong. My 00:09:36.668 --> 00:09:39.000 voice doesn't work for me all the time. 00:09:41.530 --> 00:09:45.206 There are times, say, for example, I've been in 00:09:45.308 --> 00:09:49.102 gendered spaces, so public toilets, toilets, 00:09:49.186 --> 00:09:52.746 and my wife's been with me, and she starts having a conversation through the 00:09:52.768 --> 00:09:56.506 toilet door, through the cubicle wall, and 00:09:56.528 --> 00:09:59.594 I don't respond because my voice, without my 00:09:59.632 --> 00:10:02.526 image, is 00:10:02.548 --> 00:10:06.346 incongruent. And in that space, it could be perceived 00:10:06.378 --> 00:10:10.014 as being confusing for people outside. I've actually had someone 00:10:10.052 --> 00:10:13.762 shout out once, Is there a man in there? And I said, no, 00:10:13.816 --> 00:10:17.566 it's just Joanne. Oh, sorry, Joanne. So I'm very conscious 00:10:17.598 --> 00:10:21.442 again about how we print imprint people 00:10:21.496 --> 00:10:25.118 based on voice and visuals. And so there are times when I 00:10:25.144 --> 00:10:28.134 do I am very conscious about it in certain 00:10:28.172 --> 00:10:31.320 spaces. Yeah, 00:10:32.650 --> 00:10:36.406 I can imagine that. I can appreciate what that would be 00:10:36.428 --> 00:10:39.640 like. And it is, I think, an experience. 00:10:40.330 --> 00:10:43.738 The particular experience that you describe, I think is really specific 00:10:43.904 --> 00:10:47.574 to the trans community. But also, I think there are lots of places 00:10:47.622 --> 00:10:51.434 where people feel that their voice doesn't represent who they are in 00:10:51.472 --> 00:10:55.294 some way. You often get the reverse thing where somebody's on the 00:10:55.332 --> 00:10:58.400 it's so common for people to be misgendered on the phone, 00:10:59.090 --> 00:11:02.666 regardless of whether they're trans or CIS or transitioning or nonbinary 00:11:02.698 --> 00:11:06.514 or whatever, actually, you get that sense of, oh, 00:11:06.552 --> 00:11:09.986 you didn't understand who I was, you don't know who I am. And there's a 00:11:10.008 --> 00:11:13.438 dissonance there that isn't necessarily comfortable. 00:11:13.614 --> 00:11:16.626 And also, I've been working with a couple of singers 00:11:16.738 --> 00:11:19.778 recently who are non binary 00:11:19.954 --> 00:11:23.746 singers, and it's been really interesting because there's a real conversation that's 00:11:23.778 --> 00:11:27.142 opened up there that if you wanted 00:11:27.196 --> 00:11:30.778 to sort of almost point to the science, if you like, and go, well, okay. 00:11:30.864 --> 00:11:34.586 A traditional CIS male voice would have these parameters. A 00:11:34.608 --> 00:11:38.442 traditional CIS female voice would have these parameters. Often, trans people 00:11:38.496 --> 00:11:42.246 are working towards those parameters in some way, or understanding which aspects 00:11:42.278 --> 00:11:45.818 of themselves are represented in one or the other. And for the first non 00:11:45.834 --> 00:11:49.614 binary singer that I worked with, who came in saying, not only actually 00:11:49.652 --> 00:11:53.018 do I want to change the keys of these songs and not be singing male 00:11:53.034 --> 00:11:56.670 or female rep, but actually singing from a mixture of them, I want to find 00:11:56.740 --> 00:12:00.466 my non binary singing voice. And I kind of went, wow, that's really cool. What 00:12:00.488 --> 00:12:04.338 does that sound like in your head? And they said, Actually, I don't know. I 00:12:04.344 --> 00:12:07.170 don't know what it sounds like. It doesn't sound like anything yet. Let's play together 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.982 and explore. And it was so lovely to have that opportunity to figure 00:12:11.036 --> 00:12:14.886 out what we were reaching for. Was it pitch range? Was it 00:12:14.908 --> 00:12:18.358 Tombra? Was it repertoire? Was it a mixture of those things? 00:12:18.524 --> 00:12:22.170 There's a statistical difference between 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.926 the pitch sorry, the pace and the inflection 00:12:26.038 --> 00:12:29.386 of the CIS female and CIS male voices. So was there something in that that 00:12:29.408 --> 00:12:32.974 we were working toward? And even the breath, which, 00:12:33.012 --> 00:12:36.298 again, speaks to the inclusion thing and the fact that there are things we don't 00:12:36.314 --> 00:12:39.360 even notice in inclusion that 00:12:40.450 --> 00:12:43.860 oftentimes if a person feels they have 00:12:44.390 --> 00:12:48.066 the right in a certain circumstance to speak to 00:12:48.088 --> 00:12:51.714 be heard, they will breathe more. They literally take up more 00:12:51.752 --> 00:12:54.962 air in the room because they will breathe more 00:12:55.016 --> 00:12:58.814 deeply. And that adds to a sense of presence and a sense of command. 00:12:58.862 --> 00:13:02.566 And we think, all right, I'm supposed to listen to this person. Often with 00:13:02.588 --> 00:13:06.374 public speakers, people have been trained to use their pauses exactly as you just 00:13:06.412 --> 00:13:10.118 said, actually, where you take that moment to let the room land 00:13:10.204 --> 00:13:14.042 and be in your presence before you start. And sometimes it works 00:13:14.096 --> 00:13:17.754 really well. And if people aren't employing it as successfully as they might, then 00:13:17.872 --> 00:13:21.434 there was a famous speech that I'm going to struggle to remember the beginning of 00:13:21.472 --> 00:13:25.150 now, but that Tony Blair gave, and Tony Blair was a big Pauser. 00:13:25.490 --> 00:13:29.006 And it was a power pause, because there was that sense that if you kind 00:13:29.028 --> 00:13:32.640 of stop speaking for a moment, people have to 00:13:33.410 --> 00:13:37.074 lean in and listen. It becomes really frustrating. You're just like, oh, my God, 00:13:37.112 --> 00:13:40.770 Tony, get on with it. When it works, 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.610 it works well, and when it's overused, it becomes a problem. 00:13:44.760 --> 00:13:48.190 So that sense of power breathing, taking in the breath, holding the 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:51.942 air, holding your presence in a space, and then 00:13:51.996 --> 00:13:55.814 vocalizing from that, you've automatically taken power and oxygen from 00:13:55.852 --> 00:13:58.118 other people in this space. So we kind of have to fight for that a 00:13:58.124 --> 00:14:01.402 little bit. I still 00:14:01.456 --> 00:14:05.306 remember that type of, as you say, that extra pause. And 00:14:05.328 --> 00:14:09.066 I think it's because it's an unnatural pause in a mid sentence. If 00:14:09.088 --> 00:14:12.460 it's kind of at the end of a paragraph or 00:14:13.070 --> 00:14:16.606 on a virtual page turn of a chapter, then you 00:14:16.628 --> 00:14:20.206 can allow the audience to refresh in bed to soak it in. But 00:14:20.308 --> 00:14:23.854 if you're trying to trick your audience into, as you say, leaning in and trying 00:14:23.892 --> 00:14:27.726 to grab their attention, it can become a bit exhausting 00:14:27.758 --> 00:14:30.766 for the audience, can't it? I think that's the trouble. It wears you out listening 00:14:30.798 --> 00:14:34.580 to that. Yeah. You don't want your audience to be working. 00:14:35.270 --> 00:14:38.194 That's the last thing you need. You want them to be engaged, but not having 00:14:38.232 --> 00:14:41.286 to work, I should just say, by the way, I'm going to apologize to you 00:14:41.308 --> 00:14:44.406 and the listeners. I'm currently being buzzed by a helicopter over the top of the 00:14:44.428 --> 00:14:47.926 studio I'm speaking to you from, so if there's background rumbling, I 00:14:47.948 --> 00:14:50.410 apologize. There's something flying very low overhead. 00:14:51.710 --> 00:14:55.526 We live not far from Goodwood Airport and we often get light aircraft 00:14:55.558 --> 00:14:59.366 or helicopters flying over here as well. Yeah, we're 00:14:59.398 --> 00:15:02.986 on some training route for I think it's RAF 00:15:03.018 --> 00:15:06.698 Benson. So the helicopters were on a training route down here. They followed 00:15:06.714 --> 00:15:10.234 they Buzz the canal, which is about chinook in the house. Twin, 00:15:10.282 --> 00:15:13.806 twin prop chinooks. They fly quite low, as I don't. 00:15:13.828 --> 00:15:17.006 Think you're talking of those making a guest 00:15:17.038 --> 00:15:20.786 appearance. You talk about nonbinary singers and the person springs to 00:15:20.808 --> 00:15:24.180 my mind, me, is Sam Smith, and 00:15:24.890 --> 00:15:27.830 I find Sam's delivery, 00:15:28.810 --> 00:15:32.454 because they have such a huge vocal range, the 00:15:32.492 --> 00:15:35.910 high notes, and they can also bring the depth and the real 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:39.626 resonance in there as well. I get drawn in to the 00:15:39.648 --> 00:15:42.986 song, to the words, because I find they really speak to me. 00:15:43.088 --> 00:15:46.534 And if I wasn't aware of Sam's 00:15:46.582 --> 00:15:50.374 gender, I wouldn't even care, because the song 00:15:50.422 --> 00:15:52.750 is the delivery is so powerful. 00:15:54.370 --> 00:15:57.966 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I think Sam Smith is a great example 00:15:58.068 --> 00:16:00.880 that when you are not 00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:05.502 attached to what society tells you someone 00:16:05.556 --> 00:16:09.166 is supposed to sound like, when you can in some way unattach 00:16:09.198 --> 00:16:13.026 yourself from that, you open up a whole range of possibility in terms 00:16:13.048 --> 00:16:16.858 of both pitch range pardon the pun, but also in terms of the manner 00:16:16.894 --> 00:16:20.694 of delivery, the expectation of how heavy or light the sound 00:16:20.732 --> 00:16:24.134 is going to be. So there's a real 00:16:24.332 --> 00:16:27.646 opening up there because actually, so much of it is societal 00:16:27.698 --> 00:16:31.254 conditioning that when you look at Western 00:16:31.382 --> 00:16:34.198 CIS male voices as a statistical 00:16:34.374 --> 00:16:38.074 analysis, the sense of, oh, I must have a low 00:16:38.112 --> 00:16:41.798 voice is more or less society. Saying men are 00:16:41.824 --> 00:16:45.630 supposed to be, again, heavy, inverted, commas, big, loud, strong, 00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:49.374 all of these kind of adjectives that have tended to be used. And 00:16:49.492 --> 00:16:53.238 girls are supposed to be light, small, unthreatening, 00:16:53.274 --> 00:16:56.862 and it's such nonsense, but it tends to be what society 00:16:56.926 --> 00:17:00.498 has told us. So, for example, statistically, the CIS male voice, the 00:17:00.504 --> 00:17:02.820 pitch range that is 00:17:03.670 --> 00:17:07.398 acceptable to society in this country or in the west at 00:17:07.404 --> 00:17:10.966 large, is lower than it is, for 00:17:10.988 --> 00:17:14.690 example, in West Africa, where a high male voice is quite celebrated, 00:17:14.850 --> 00:17:18.566 especially in singing. But actually, there's no sense of, oh, you have 00:17:18.588 --> 00:17:22.406 to speak low. Using a much wider kind of pitch 00:17:22.438 --> 00:17:25.914 range is completely acceptable. And actually, by the same 00:17:25.952 --> 00:17:29.580 token, the traditional CIS female voice, the pitch range can be lower 00:17:30.350 --> 00:17:33.360 in south africa and in some of those areas than it is 00:17:33.890 --> 00:17:37.514 in Asia. So there's a lot of societal 00:17:37.562 --> 00:17:41.406 conditioning and fundamentally, we all have the same instrument. Some 00:17:41.428 --> 00:17:44.046 people are born with a Steinway and some people are born with a pub piano, 00:17:44.078 --> 00:17:47.666 but it's basically the same instrument and anyone can learn to operate the 00:17:47.688 --> 00:17:50.980 thing, whether you're singing or speaking. And so 00:17:51.430 --> 00:17:55.234 knowing that physiologically for the vast majority of people, 00:17:55.272 --> 00:17:58.998 there are very few differences between our voice and the 00:17:59.004 --> 00:18:02.630 next person that we're going to meet, maybe some structural and size things, 00:18:02.700 --> 00:18:06.226 but actually, basically, we've all got the same kit in there. It's 00:18:06.258 --> 00:18:10.022 society that tells us what we're supposed to sound like. 00:18:10.156 --> 00:18:13.546 And actually we can answer back by saying, well, no, I sound like this, and 00:18:13.568 --> 00:18:17.386 this is where my authenticity is, and this is my voice. And 00:18:17.408 --> 00:18:19.866 the voice is where we tell people we love them and where we tell people 00:18:19.888 --> 00:18:23.126 we hate them and where we scream and where we cry and where we laugh. 00:18:23.318 --> 00:18:27.086 And I only half joking quite often say to people that 00:18:27.108 --> 00:18:30.206 actually the larynx is such an emotional thing that on Valentine's Day I think we 00:18:30.228 --> 00:18:33.198 all ought to give each other cards with larynxes on because it's much more emotional 00:18:33.214 --> 00:18:36.500 than the heart is. That's so true. 00:18:36.870 --> 00:18:39.780 Your voice can crack and 00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:44.210 lose stability, if you like, under emotional stress. 00:18:45.590 --> 00:18:49.074 Yeah. And laughter is a vocal we call them vocal gestures 00:18:49.122 --> 00:18:52.966 in voice science. Laughter is a vocal gesture. Crying is 00:18:52.988 --> 00:18:56.040 a vocal gesture. And a lot of the time you get people 00:18:56.650 --> 00:19:00.102 what I spend most of my time doing is actually encouraging people to make sounds 00:19:00.156 --> 00:19:03.834 they can already make and then using them in a different context. So, for example, 00:19:04.032 --> 00:19:07.718 if people kind of think of that really moany teenager voice like, oh, mom, it's 00:19:07.734 --> 00:19:10.906 not fair, that kind of space in there. Actually, if you take that into a 00:19:10.928 --> 00:19:14.718 song voice, I don't know, if I just kind 00:19:14.724 --> 00:19:17.674 of sing a note and just go, Ah. And then if I kind of cry, 00:19:17.722 --> 00:19:21.406 I didn't go money teenager becomes more 00:19:21.428 --> 00:19:25.214 operatic in its tonality because there's something 00:19:25.252 --> 00:19:28.866 called thyroid tilt. There's a movement in the larynx that is produced when we make 00:19:28.888 --> 00:19:32.450 the vocal gesture of crying. Whereas on the other hand, if I cheer, 00:19:32.790 --> 00:19:35.134 which I'm going to back away from the microphone, because I don't want to explode 00:19:35.182 --> 00:19:38.150 people's AirPods, but if I kind of cheer in the opposite direction of the computer 00:19:38.220 --> 00:19:41.974 and just go, hey yay. If I do that 00:19:42.012 --> 00:19:45.430 and hold it, I'm basically belting a rock song going, Yay. 00:19:47.050 --> 00:19:50.140 It's cheering. It's a vocal gesture we can already do. 00:19:50.590 --> 00:19:54.134 So when you were talking about Sam Smith, they use such a wide 00:19:54.182 --> 00:19:57.498 range of vocal gestures that include the kind of the 00:19:57.504 --> 00:20:00.866 falsettoe, very light sound, the cry sound, the belt 00:20:00.918 --> 00:20:04.526 sound, and they're all things that actually each of 00:20:04.548 --> 00:20:08.286 us physically can already do, but mentally, do 00:20:08.308 --> 00:20:12.014 we have permission? Has society or have we ourselves, or have 00:20:12.052 --> 00:20:15.794 those around us, given us permission to make 00:20:15.832 --> 00:20:18.546 that sound and to own the noise that we make? And that's where the work 00:20:18.568 --> 00:20:21.220 is often needs to be done. 00:20:22.630 --> 00:20:26.438 You said just now that we all have the same instrument. Some of 00:20:26.444 --> 00:20:29.906 them are just a bit rougher at the edges, a bit larger, a bit smaller, 00:20:29.938 --> 00:20:32.680 whatever it may be. Yeah. 00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:36.230 So how much of our voice 00:20:36.810 --> 00:20:40.010 and the way we sound is nurture rather than nature? 00:20:42.270 --> 00:20:45.180 I would say a large majority of it. So 00:20:46.910 --> 00:20:50.294 the only physiological difference is to do 00:20:50.432 --> 00:20:54.090 with the hormones that hit us at puberty 00:20:54.250 --> 00:20:57.294 or in some cases, in 00:20:57.332 --> 00:21:01.150 transition. But when the 00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:04.794 larynx gets a hit of testosterone at a male puberty, or 00:21:04.852 --> 00:21:08.274 for a trans man, if they go on to testosterone, the 00:21:08.312 --> 00:21:11.934 larynx grows at that point. And because the larynx 00:21:11.982 --> 00:21:15.794 is bigger, the vocal cords are longer and the instrument you're playing is 00:21:15.832 --> 00:21:19.666 bigger. And that's why it has a more bass Tombra to it. So if 00:21:19.688 --> 00:21:22.966 you think of someone playing a trombone and somebody playing a flute, they could play 00:21:22.988 --> 00:21:26.774 the same note as each other, but the Tombra would be noticeably different because 00:21:26.812 --> 00:21:30.566 of the size of the pipework of the instrument. So when the larynx gets 00:21:30.588 --> 00:21:34.326 a testosterone hit, it gets bigger and as you've already touched 00:21:34.358 --> 00:21:37.786 on, that can happen. So for trans men, when they're transitioning, if they go on 00:21:37.808 --> 00:21:41.414 to T, the larynx will grow and they go through a voice break 00:21:41.472 --> 00:21:44.974 process. For trans women, if they have been through a 00:21:45.092 --> 00:21:48.718 CIS male puberty, you can't ungrow a 00:21:48.724 --> 00:21:51.982 tree. So once the larynx has grown, it doesn't shrink back. So 00:21:52.036 --> 00:21:55.486 actually, for trans women, the 00:21:55.588 --> 00:21:59.426 coaching work is necessary if they want to change the way that 00:21:59.448 --> 00:22:03.186 they sound. And as you've already touched on, there's no need for 00:22:03.208 --> 00:22:06.600 that to happen. It's entirely kind of down to the authenticity of the person. 00:22:06.970 --> 00:22:10.754 But apart from that one difference of testosterone 00:22:10.802 --> 00:22:14.118 causing the larynx to grow, essentially, the physiology is the same 00:22:14.204 --> 00:22:17.510 across everybody. We all have the same capability. 00:22:18.490 --> 00:22:22.186 I was having the conversation for 15 years. I ran a drama school and 00:22:22.208 --> 00:22:25.974 was working with actors in training on a full time basis. 00:22:26.022 --> 00:22:29.340 And one of my colleagues there is 00:22:29.710 --> 00:22:33.374 a woman with a very low bass resonance voice. She's got a really 00:22:33.492 --> 00:22:37.226 lovely, rich, kind of beautiful, butterscotch 00:22:37.258 --> 00:22:40.826 kind of voice. And actually, my spoken voice is quite high and my singing voice 00:22:40.858 --> 00:22:44.126 is quite high. And we were talking to the students about 00:22:44.308 --> 00:22:47.620 voice and gender and characterization. And when you're working, 00:22:47.990 --> 00:22:51.570 in fact, as we are, when it's just a voice that people are hearing, 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:55.714 how we're perceiving that sound, and how, as an actor, you can engage that 00:22:55.752 --> 00:22:59.314 audience. And somebody said, oh, yes, but women have higher voices than men. 00:22:59.432 --> 00:23:02.866 And I said, well, no, it's not that you can have a more bass 00:23:02.898 --> 00:23:06.722 Tombra to it, but actually, if I stand next to Claire, who is my colleague 00:23:06.866 --> 00:23:10.086 and we both say the alphabet to you. I have a little gadget I use 00:23:10.108 --> 00:23:13.418 on my computer that shows you the pitch that the speaker is using and lo 00:23:13.424 --> 00:23:17.110 and behold, Claire was a good few hertz below me in our natural 00:23:17.190 --> 00:23:19.850 speaking ranges. But it's the Tombra 00:23:20.750 --> 00:23:23.582 that can change. We can work with the Tombra and move it up and down. 00:23:23.636 --> 00:23:27.386 So a lot of what we perceive as vocal differences are in fact vocal 00:23:27.418 --> 00:23:30.926 similarities. Just with a few little nips and tucks around the 00:23:30.948 --> 00:23:34.206 edge. Could you just explain to me what Tombra 00:23:34.238 --> 00:23:36.980 is? Not sure. Yeah, 00:23:38.710 --> 00:23:41.780 for sure. So for example, 00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:46.914 this is going to sound very odd for your listeners now. So stand by everybody. 00:23:46.952 --> 00:23:49.510 Do not adjust your sets. I'm actually making these noises 00:23:50.490 --> 00:23:54.086 so I'm going to hold one note so that I'm not changing the 00:23:54.108 --> 00:23:57.606 pitch. So the actual pitch, if I were to make a pitch change I'd be 00:23:57.628 --> 00:24:01.446 going and you'd hear a 00:24:01.468 --> 00:24:05.226 change of note. Yeah, exactly. Kind of moving up and down. 00:24:05.408 --> 00:24:08.666 What I'm going to do is hold one note. So if you imagine in your 00:24:08.688 --> 00:24:12.394 head a graph, the graph is flatlining, there's no undulation 00:24:12.442 --> 00:24:16.286 in it. E. And 00:24:16.308 --> 00:24:20.046 then what I'm going to do is change the treble and bass in 00:24:20.068 --> 00:24:23.514 that sound. So you'll hear a bass frequency and a treble 00:24:23.562 --> 00:24:26.160 frequency and I'll move between so 00:24:27.170 --> 00:24:27.920