WEBVTT 00:00:03.660 --> 00:00:07.464 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 00:00:07.502 --> 00:00:11.336 Inclusion Bites Podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number 00:00:11.358 --> 00:00:14.936 of amazing people. I simply had the conversation around the subject of 00:00:14.958 --> 00:00:18.504 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better 00:00:18.542 --> 00:00:22.152 place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, 00:00:22.206 --> 00:00:24.184 then please do drop me a line to 00:00:24.222 --> 00:00:27.120 Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 00:00:27.190 --> 00:00:31.040 that's SEE Change Happen dot co dot 00:00:31.040 --> 00:00:34.496 uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on 00:00:34.518 --> 00:00:37.760 iTunes, Spotify and the usual places, 00:00:38.440 --> 00:00:42.004 so plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and 00:00:42.042 --> 00:00:45.872 let's get going. Today is Episode 00:00:45.936 --> 00:00:49.316 78 with the title Too White to Be 00:00:49.338 --> 00:00:52.410 Black and Too Black to Be White. 00:00:53.420 --> 00:00:56.788 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Holly Straker 00:00:56.804 --> 00:01:00.436 Humphreys. Holly describes herself as an inclusion 00:01:00.468 --> 00:01:04.032 leader and when I asked Holly to describe her superpower, 00:01:04.116 --> 00:01:07.944 she said that her strange talent is for writing effective 00:01:07.992 --> 00:01:11.612 emails and complaints to companies. Her 00:01:11.666 --> 00:01:15.496 best achievement was an email to the CEO of Dyson to challenge 00:01:15.528 --> 00:01:19.244 them on how they perpetuated idealizations of Western 00:01:19.292 --> 00:01:22.832 beauty in the way they talked about their hair care products and 00:01:22.886 --> 00:01:25.810 stigmatised Afro hair as a problem. 00:01:26.820 --> 00:01:30.624 Hello, Holly, welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Thank 00:01:30.662 --> 00:01:33.584 you so much for having me. I sound like a bit of a loser, don't 00:01:33.632 --> 00:01:37.396 I? No, not at all. We've known each other 00:01:37.418 --> 00:01:41.076 a few years now and I would never put you in any category like that, 00:01:41.098 --> 00:01:44.792 so, no, you're an amazing and wonderful person, so no, 00:01:44.846 --> 00:01:48.420 not at all. So holly, this episode 00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:52.170 isn't titled too White to Be Black and Too Black To Be White. 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:55.230 Why, does that mean something to you? 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.332 Yeah, I'm turning 30 this 00:02:00.386 --> 00:02:04.076 year. Wow. Yeah, I need to get myself on board with 00:02:04.098 --> 00:02:07.872 that. And I would say it's probably 00:02:08.006 --> 00:02:11.600 only the last two, three, four 00:02:11.670 --> 00:02:15.120 years where I felt truly 00:02:15.700 --> 00:02:18.912 comfortable in being me and truly 00:02:18.976 --> 00:02:22.708 comfortable in knowing who I am, 00:02:22.794 --> 00:02:25.620 what I stand for, my identity. 00:02:26.760 --> 00:02:30.324 So I guess if we take that right back to the beginning and 00:02:30.362 --> 00:02:33.400 maybe why I wasn't comfortable. 00:02:34.220 --> 00:02:37.876 So I am mixed race. 00:02:37.988 --> 00:02:41.604 I am half white, so my dad 00:02:41.652 --> 00:02:45.192 is white British, and my mum is of 00:02:45.246 --> 00:02:49.016 Beijing descent, so from Barbados. That's where 00:02:49.038 --> 00:02:52.616 my mom's family is from. And I've grown 00:02:52.648 --> 00:02:55.844 up in North Leeds, which is a relatively 00:02:55.912 --> 00:02:58.930 affluent area in Leeds. Quite a middle class area. 00:02:59.780 --> 00:03:02.912 Attended predominantly white 00:03:03.046 --> 00:03:06.320 schools throughout my childhood. 00:03:06.660 --> 00:03:10.484 And I think, looking back, you 00:03:10.522 --> 00:03:14.256 only know what you know. Right? So I guess that was just the environment 00:03:14.288 --> 00:03:17.716 that I was used to, but there was probably 00:03:17.818 --> 00:03:21.380 always something that made me feel like, 00:03:21.450 --> 00:03:25.156 why aren't I just fitting in here? And it's 00:03:25.188 --> 00:03:28.936 not that. I had loads of great friends, I 00:03:28.958 --> 00:03:32.660 had an amazing childhood. Like, I was like serial packet 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:36.110 nuclear family, so I could not 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.590 complain about any of my experiences. I never had 00:03:41.200 --> 00:03:44.684 any particularly negative experiences around the 00:03:44.722 --> 00:03:48.336 way that I looked or my identity, it was just 00:03:48.518 --> 00:03:52.240 something inside me just didn't always click, probably, 00:03:52.310 --> 00:03:55.984 particularly when I was older. And then if 00:03:56.022 --> 00:03:59.600 you flip to more of the black 00:03:59.670 --> 00:04:03.316 side of my identity, I 00:04:03.338 --> 00:04:06.516 have a massive big Beijing Caribbean family 00:04:06.698 --> 00:04:09.350 and we have super strong 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.768 family values. There's a lot of Sunday get togethers around 00:04:13.854 --> 00:04:17.556 food and it'll be a Sunday night at 06:00 and everyone's 00:04:17.588 --> 00:04:21.400 dancing in the kitchen. We have such good, positive energy 00:04:21.470 --> 00:04:24.410 in our family. Like my family is everything. 00:04:25.660 --> 00:04:29.356 But we often get comments. So me and my 00:04:29.378 --> 00:04:32.956 brother around our accents, how we speak, where we 00:04:32.978 --> 00:04:36.670 lived, like ingest from our family, we're very 00:04:37.280 --> 00:04:41.104 comical family. We'll make jokes out of 00:04:41.142 --> 00:04:44.332 each other a lot. But I guess that's where the sentiment 00:04:44.396 --> 00:04:48.208 of two white to be black and two blacks to be 00:04:48.214 --> 00:04:51.910 white came from. You just didn't quite fit in either community. 00:04:53.960 --> 00:04:57.620 And growing up and even where I am now. 00:04:57.690 --> 00:05:01.492 I think it takes you a long time when you are of 00:05:01.626 --> 00:05:05.192 mixed heritage to really understand how to be 00:05:05.246 --> 00:05:08.884 you happily in the middle and how you can appreciate 00:05:08.932 --> 00:05:12.696 and value both sides of your identity or multiple sides of 00:05:12.718 --> 00:05:14.670 your identity but 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.724 still feel like you 00:05:19.762 --> 00:05:23.564 belong somewhere and find your people. So 00:05:23.602 --> 00:05:27.264 yeah, I just have a lot of memories of going to 00:05:27.302 --> 00:05:30.688 visit my white grandparents in the 00:05:30.694 --> 00:05:34.416 countryside and sitting in a countryside pub and me and my brother being the 00:05:34.438 --> 00:05:38.176 only non white people and my mum as well, and 00:05:38.198 --> 00:05:41.760 then going to visit my mum's 00:05:41.840 --> 00:05:45.680 parents in Hare Hills, which is quite an ethnically 00:05:45.760 --> 00:05:49.444 diverse area in Leeds, and just feeling, oh, this isn't quite 00:05:49.482 --> 00:05:53.272 what I'm used to. So it was just almost two worlds coming together 00:05:53.326 --> 00:05:55.850 and where do I fit in the middle of it? 00:05:57.020 --> 00:06:00.504 So, yeah, that's how I describe where that's come 00:06:00.542 --> 00:06:03.932 from. I think you described yourself 00:06:03.986 --> 00:06:06.968 as feeling you have a see of privilege 00:06:07.144 --> 00:06:10.636 because of maybe your accent, because of 00:06:10.658 --> 00:06:14.264 your barely light brown 00:06:14.312 --> 00:06:17.904 skin. You feel you have 00:06:17.942 --> 00:06:21.676 benefited from some of the characteristics as well as the affluent 00:06:21.708 --> 00:06:24.976 area you grew up in. Oh, God. Yeah. I 00:06:24.998 --> 00:06:28.680 think I straighten my hair 00:06:28.780 --> 00:06:32.532 now. I think particularly, probably because 00:06:32.666 --> 00:06:36.516 I work in a corporate environment, it just feels better. I 00:06:36.538 --> 00:06:39.350 wish I didn't feel that way, but it does. 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:44.776 The way that I speak doesn't sound 00:06:44.878 --> 00:06:48.520 particularly different to other people in a corporate environment. 00:06:48.940 --> 00:06:52.440 Obviously, as you mentioned, quite light 00:06:52.510 --> 00:06:56.296 skin. I've always had both my parents went 00:06:56.318 --> 00:06:59.720 to Diversity, so I've always had that kind of 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:03.112 access and education and I guess 00:07:03.166 --> 00:07:06.624 aspiration from them as well. So there's so 00:07:06.662 --> 00:07:09.040 much this is why it's quite a strange 00:07:12.900 --> 00:07:16.656 there's a lot at play here, because if you took my life on 00:07:16.678 --> 00:07:20.516 paper, it's been wonderful, but still, that sense of 00:07:20.538 --> 00:07:23.430 belonging was missing for quite some time. 00:07:24.520 --> 00:07:28.016 So, yeah, it's a complex one because I've 00:07:28.048 --> 00:07:31.656 had brilliant childhood, amazing access to 00:07:31.678 --> 00:07:35.160 opportunities, I've been able to excel my career, 00:07:35.660 --> 00:07:39.272 but still, there was something that was always missing for me in terms 00:07:39.326 --> 00:07:42.728 of really understanding and feeling comfortable in 00:07:42.814 --> 00:07:46.556 who I was. You've mentioned your 00:07:46.578 --> 00:07:50.220 hair a couple of times. What, once in your superpower about the complaint to 00:07:50.370 --> 00:07:51.580 Co Dyson, 00:07:54.400 --> 00:07:58.032 how much pressure do you feel 00:07:58.086 --> 00:08:01.696 that you're self imposing around the way your 00:08:01.718 --> 00:08:04.556 hair looks? Or is there a genuine 00:08:04.748 --> 00:08:08.560 discrimination against Afro 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:12.100 style hair in the workplace, in society? 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:17.030 Well, I guess you don't have to look far in the research to find, 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:20.896 yes, there is, in terms of how people are treated at 00:08:20.938 --> 00:08:24.328 school, being discriminated, put in 00:08:24.494 --> 00:08:27.924 exclusion for certain natural Afro 00:08:27.972 --> 00:08:31.624 hairstyles. And then similarly at work, people have 00:08:31.662 --> 00:08:35.436 been directly discriminated against for how their 00:08:35.458 --> 00:08:39.100 hair is. But I guess for me, I am 00:08:39.170 --> 00:08:42.750 lucky to have not experienced either of those things. 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.640 I guess for me it's been a lot more subtle, 00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:50.512 but I know from some research that's been done 00:08:50.566 --> 00:08:54.364 around how we experience issues around race, sometimes the subtle 00:08:54.412 --> 00:08:58.080 things can be more damaging psychologically 00:08:58.420 --> 00:09:02.244 because it's harder to pinpoint, harder to understand. It is. It all 00:09:02.282 --> 00:09:06.084 in my head? Is it just me? So, like, 00:09:06.122 --> 00:09:09.956 going back to being at school, we used to get on 00:09:09.978 --> 00:09:13.640 the bus and go to swimming with the whole class and everyone was like, oh, 00:09:13.710 --> 00:09:17.130 washing the hair after swimming. And it's like, oh, no way. 00:09:18.460 --> 00:09:22.152 Afro hair wash as a child is a two to three hour 00:09:22.206 --> 00:09:25.576 activity on a Sunday night, usually with your mum 00:09:25.608 --> 00:09:27.820 screaming, smacking you with the hairbrush. 00:09:29.760 --> 00:09:33.436 And it kind of just started to 00:09:33.458 --> 00:09:36.796 lay these little seeds around, feeling 00:09:36.908 --> 00:09:39.570 dirty or not feeling as 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:43.984 other kids could just go in the shower, wash their hair, come out and 00:09:44.182 --> 00:09:47.968 I don't think anyone ever actually said anything 00:09:48.054 --> 00:09:51.684 not explicit, but it just started with that. And then when you 00:09:51.722 --> 00:09:55.236 lay over, kind of like skin tone and things like that, I think I 00:09:55.258 --> 00:09:58.820 just subconsciously started to build 00:09:58.890 --> 00:10:02.692 this slightly negative perception. And then you move 00:10:02.746 --> 00:10:06.344 into like at lunchtime, let's all braid our hair. And it's like, oh, 00:10:06.382 --> 00:10:09.736 no, the bubble stuck in my hair. You can't just get that brush through my 00:10:09.758 --> 00:10:13.124 hair because it will snap. It's just those little subtle 00:10:13.172 --> 00:10:16.492 things. And then I think, as I've got 00:10:16.546 --> 00:10:20.396 older, the programmes that you watch on 00:10:20.418 --> 00:10:23.932 television, the adverts that you see, you never 00:10:23.986 --> 00:10:27.664 see hair that looks like mine in 00:10:27.862 --> 00:10:31.312 a positive way. It's always all 00:10:31.366 --> 00:10:35.164 the adverts on TV are antifreeze 00:10:35.212 --> 00:10:39.060 combat. That frizz smoothen your hair. 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:46.004 Growing up at my age, I'd never really seen 00:10:46.122 --> 00:10:49.824 anyone have hair 00:10:49.872 --> 00:10:53.540 like mine and it be really appreciated, maybe 00:10:53.610 --> 00:10:57.384 apart from Melby and the Spice Girls. Now I'm thinking back 00:10:57.422 --> 00:11:01.268 on it, and I do idolise her quite a lot. She has fab hair, 00:11:01.284 --> 00:11:05.004 doesn't she? I've always been envious of her hair. And anybody with that 00:11:05.042 --> 00:11:08.524 kind of real bouncy, big Afro, e, kind of 00:11:08.562 --> 00:11:11.870 curly, is very powerful. I think 00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:18.544 movie stars with it and it's a very power cut. I 00:11:18.582 --> 00:11:22.432 think and I guess I could probably see that, 00:11:22.486 --> 00:11:26.000 but for the environment that I was in, it just didn't feel 00:11:26.070 --> 00:11:29.252 right. And I know when I started going to job 00:11:29.306 --> 00:11:32.996 interviews and I would always straighten my hair, I just 00:11:33.018 --> 00:11:36.710 did not feel comfortable. And this is why, I think, 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:39.430 looking at the impact of 00:11:40.280 --> 00:11:43.944 inclusion across and how it's embedded in 00:11:43.982 --> 00:11:47.144 societal structures is so powerful, because 00:11:47.342 --> 00:11:50.904 nobody as a child was ever explicitly racist to me, said 00:11:50.942 --> 00:11:54.436 there's anything wrong with the colour of my skin. I had a brilliant 00:11:54.468 --> 00:11:58.284 childhood, like, we're surrounded by plenty of black people from 00:11:58.322 --> 00:12:01.964 my family, but still there was something that 00:12:02.082 --> 00:12:05.660 just did not make me feel proud of the way that 00:12:05.730 --> 00:12:09.040 I looked, particularly in terms of my hair, 00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:15.248 powerful. So the work you're doing now is 00:12:15.334 --> 00:12:19.172 in corporate environments around the 00:12:19.226 --> 00:12:22.928 inclusion, belonging, dei, whichever acronym you prefer. 00:12:23.104 --> 00:12:26.804 Do you think your heritage, your mixed heritage and 00:12:26.842 --> 00:12:30.400 your lived experience gives you an additional superpower of insight 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:34.104 into that environment? I think 00:12:34.142 --> 00:12:37.720 so, yeah. I think I have always 00:12:37.790 --> 00:12:41.064 seen myself as because I've had that kind of 00:12:41.102 --> 00:12:44.892 socioeconomic privilege, I've managed to get 00:12:44.946 --> 00:12:48.444 myself to a point in my career I actually never thought I 00:12:48.482 --> 00:12:51.896 would. And so I feel quite a heavy 00:12:51.928 --> 00:12:54.830 responsibility as a 00:12:55.280 --> 00:12:58.764 woman of colour, in quite a senior 00:12:58.892 --> 00:13:02.176 corporate role, to use my power, 00:13:02.278 --> 00:13:05.852 position, experience to uplift 00:13:05.916 --> 00:13:09.620 others who maybe just do not get that opportunity because 00:13:09.690 --> 00:13:13.172 of the networks they exist in, access to 00:13:13.306 --> 00:13:16.804 financial resources, even just general 00:13:16.922 --> 00:13:20.676 role models and aspirations. Like, the famous thing is hard to be 00:13:20.698 --> 00:13:24.264 what you can't see. I know 00:13:24.302 --> 00:13:27.384 people can feel quite uncomfortable, and rightly so, of being that 00:13:27.422 --> 00:13:31.208 token black person that's on every career site or 00:13:31.294 --> 00:13:34.888 every recruitment poster. And I get that, 00:13:34.974 --> 00:13:38.380 like, we shouldn't be there. However, I've always been quite 00:13:38.450 --> 00:13:42.092 comfortable in being that person because I 00:13:42.146 --> 00:13:45.880 know that for me, that would have made a 00:13:45.890 --> 00:13:49.696 difference, seeing someone like me. So I almost see 00:13:49.718 --> 00:13:52.160 it as a bit of a duty and responsibility, 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:58.000 not in a negative way. I feel 00:13:58.070 --> 00:14:00.790 quite empowered by being able to do that 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.648 and I do quite a lot of mentoring, specifically 00:14:05.744 --> 00:14:08.992 people from minority backgrounds. And it's a consistent 00:14:09.056 --> 00:14:12.904 theme around just not quite feeling like 00:14:12.942 --> 00:14:15.880 you fit in confidence, identity. 00:14:16.220 --> 00:14:19.848 And once you can help connect 00:14:19.934 --> 00:14:23.530 people with others like them, or just shift that mindset around, 00:14:23.920 --> 00:14:27.292 your uniqueness can be your 00:14:27.346 --> 00:14:31.036 superpower and get you to places that you thought it might 00:14:31.058 --> 00:14:34.408 hold you back. I've seen people progress 00:14:34.504 --> 00:14:37.872 massively, both in their careers, but personally, just in terms 00:14:37.926 --> 00:14:41.650 of confidence, values, understanding who they are. 00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:46.928 And I think it took me a 00:14:46.934 --> 00:14:50.496 while in my first corporate 00:14:50.528 --> 00:14:54.176 jobs to understand that my different perspective 00:14:54.288 --> 00:14:57.670 wasn't weird or wrong, it actually 00:14:58.280 --> 00:15:02.004 was really valuable. And as soon as I started to use my voice in that 00:15:02.042 --> 00:15:04.490 way, I was like, oh, wow, maybe 00:15:05.500 --> 00:15:09.224 this could get me somewhere. And the more confident I did with that, the 00:15:09.262 --> 00:15:12.500 more confident I was with that, the faster my career 00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:16.296 excelled. But I guess you've got to work to get to that 00:15:16.318 --> 00:15:19.036 point. It's not as easy to just turn up to work one day and be 00:15:19.058 --> 00:15:22.844 like, right, I'm a constant black female, let me go and take on the world 00:15:22.882 --> 00:15:26.336 and give all my ideas. I really had to 00:15:26.438 --> 00:15:29.490 find my people at work, get that kind of 00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:34.416 girl gang around me to support and empower me 00:15:34.438 --> 00:15:37.952 and uplift my voice, find managers that really 00:15:38.006 --> 00:15:41.636 truly believe me and pushed me, and find other people 00:15:41.738 --> 00:15:45.524 who looked like me to share the 00:15:45.562 --> 00:15:48.580 experiences with and keep pushing ourselves. 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:53.272 So, yeah, there's a lot of work and you are 00:15:53.326 --> 00:15:56.872 working against systems and structures as well. 00:15:57.006 --> 00:15:59.210 We can't discount that. 00:16:00.380 --> 00:16:04.156 But I have seen people get there and it's an amazing thing and 00:16:04.178 --> 00:16:07.964 that's what drives me in my role against all 00:16:08.002 --> 00:16:11.756 the crap that we also have to deal with. Joanne, you'll know, as an 00:16:11.778 --> 00:16:15.436 inclusion specialist. Yeah, just 00:16:15.458 --> 00:16:18.216 picking up a few things you said there you had to get your girl gang 00:16:18.248 --> 00:16:22.080 together to give you that confidence, to give you that boost and to sort of 00:16:22.150 --> 00:16:25.516 almost like challenge the incumbent or challenge the monoculture. 00:16:25.548 --> 00:16:28.050 And as you were saying, I thought, well, 00:16:29.300 --> 00:16:32.676 all that's there already is the boy gang, so it's not 00:16:32.698 --> 00:16:36.324 like they've done anything different. They've got their own tribe, they've got their own boy 00:16:36.362 --> 00:16:39.750 gang, their own white boy clan, and 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:44.136 they inherently have this superpower about them because they're amplifying each other 00:16:44.158 --> 00:16:47.528 and it's just the way things have been, because that's been the incumbent culture, if 00:16:47.534 --> 00:16:50.984 you like. So you're doing no different, getting your 00:16:51.022 --> 00:16:54.652 own amplifier, supporters and mentors around 00:16:54.706 --> 00:16:58.124 you that are going to look after your needs. 00:16:58.242 --> 00:17:01.996 And I often find 00:17:02.018 --> 00:17:05.464 that it's not a fault of the privileged 00:17:05.592 --> 00:17:09.360 people who have incumbent, they're just unaware that 00:17:09.430 --> 00:17:13.196 that's how they're operating and they're not aware that people don't 00:17:13.228 --> 00:17:16.930 have the same access to the opportunity because they just see the opportunity, 00:17:18.100 --> 00:17:21.764 it's in the air they breathe. Yeah. You only know what 00:17:21.802 --> 00:17:25.492 you know and what your experience is, so why would 00:17:25.546 --> 00:17:29.396 you think any different? And the more I talk to 00:17:29.418 --> 00:17:33.208 people in the kind of the dei space, inclusion space, 00:17:33.374 --> 00:17:37.224 you realise that most people have impostor syndrome. Most 00:17:37.262 --> 00:17:40.776 people have worry about not being good enough, whether it's around their 00:17:40.798 --> 00:17:44.364 identity, whether it's about their capability. And so what you said 00:17:44.402 --> 00:17:48.236 there is often we think about the 00:17:48.258 --> 00:17:51.900 mindset of the we call it the marginalised 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:55.644 candidate, or the marginalised person or the minority person, 00:17:55.842 --> 00:17:59.536 whatever that terminology really means. It's kind of a crass way of describing it. 00:17:59.638 --> 00:18:03.360 But the mindset of people who aren't the default 00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:07.756 tends to be one that impostor syndrome exists, or the access to the networks 00:18:07.788 --> 00:18:11.476 that exists, the access to information doesn't exist. And it's really hard to break that 00:18:11.498 --> 00:18:15.252 down and create those support structures in organisations to 00:18:15.306 --> 00:18:19.156 empower, as you're saying, those mental programmes those fast track programmes. Those 00:18:19.178 --> 00:18:22.744 are awareness programmes. Yeah, 00:18:22.862 --> 00:18:26.564 completely. And what you were just talking about there brings 00:18:26.612 --> 00:18:30.056 my mum to mind, actually, who my mom is a little bit of a 00:18:30.078 --> 00:18:33.480 superpower within a superwoman within herself, 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:38.056 and I carry some of her within me in 00:18:38.078 --> 00:18:40.010 terms of she 00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:45.256 grew up predominantly in Hair Hills, which, 00:18:45.278 --> 00:18:48.944 as I mentioned, was an ethnically diverse area. 00:18:49.142 --> 00:18:52.764 My grandparents had moved over from Barbados, 00:18:52.812 --> 00:18:56.544 so part of that generation of coming over from the Caribbean. But my 00:18:56.582 --> 00:19:00.192 mom was kind of found her way in a lot of quite white environments. 00:19:00.256 --> 00:19:03.780 So she worked in a university, she went to university, 00:19:04.280 --> 00:19:07.920 worked in a lot of corporate organisations. 00:19:08.080 --> 00:19:11.604 And she's always said she loves to be that only black 00:19:11.642 --> 00:19:15.144 woman in the room, almost to prove everything wrong, 00:19:15.262 --> 00:19:19.016 prove the status quo that I'm here and I can do this. And I 00:19:19.038 --> 00:19:22.808 think I carry that a little bit. I almost can get a 00:19:22.814 --> 00:19:26.188 little bit of a thrill of walking into a meeting room, meeting a new 00:19:26.274 --> 00:19:29.756 executive, and I'm not only a 00:19:29.938 --> 00:19:33.596 mixed race woman, but also I look quite young. I 00:19:33.618 --> 00:19:37.324 still get ID for paracetamol in the supermarket 00:19:37.372 --> 00:19:40.290 and I think that's 16. So there we go. 00:19:42.020 --> 00:19:45.596 And I've got a northern accent. My voice 00:19:45.628 --> 00:19:49.376 sounds relatively young as well, and people kind of look at me and at 00:19:49.398 --> 00:19:53.184 the start, they're not really listening. You can tell with body language 00:19:53.312 --> 00:19:57.056 and then by the end, they're like, oh, shit, she maybe knows what she's 00:19:57.088 --> 00:20:00.896 talking about. And I get a bit of a thrill from that in that 00:20:01.018 --> 00:20:04.824 prove people wrong. And I think you can 00:20:04.862 --> 00:20:08.456 take a lot of fire and drive from working 00:20:08.558 --> 00:20:12.024 against some of the systems that we have 00:20:12.142 --> 00:20:15.932 in society. So I've definitely got that from my mom. 00:20:15.986 --> 00:20:19.676 And she'll listen to this and she'll love this because she 00:20:19.698 --> 00:20:23.436 loves getting a mention. Yeah, you're so right. And 00:20:23.458 --> 00:20:26.364 I think when you have a 00:20:26.402 --> 00:20:29.824 powerful voice in the room that has a different 00:20:29.862 --> 00:20:33.488 perspective, it's hard not to listen, although some people 00:20:33.654 --> 00:20:37.408 choose not to listen, but a lot of people do listen. And I hear what 00:20:37.414 --> 00:20:41.104 you're saying about being the only person in the room. I 00:20:41.142 --> 00:20:44.950 often am the only person in the room who's trans. And 00:20:45.800 --> 00:20:48.164 if I see another trans person in the room, I get a bit jealous, go, 00:20:48.202 --> 00:20:51.430 Hang on a minute, this is my space, I want to be the only person, 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.350 I want to be the one kind of pathiva sort of thing. But, no, 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.784 it's also from psychological safety point of view, it's really, really hard sometimes 00:20:59.982 --> 00:21:03.816 to know you're the only person in the room, know that you're going to 00:21:03.838 --> 00:21:07.300 end up having certain questions or certain 00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:10.764 conversations with people all the time. They'll want your opinion on 00:21:10.802 --> 00:21:14.636 something. Can I not be transferred one day? Do I have to talk about 00:21:14.738 --> 00:21:18.200 being a black woman all the time? Can I just not talk about being 00:21:18.370 --> 00:21:21.836 something else? There is a lot of pressure for you to be representative, isn't 00:21:21.868 --> 00:21:25.644 there? Yeah, completely. And I think there's 00:21:25.692 --> 00:21:29.344 also that pressure that a lot of people feel of when you are 00:21:29.382 --> 00:21:33.216 the first and only one, if you don't 00:21:33.248 --> 00:21:37.024 do an amazing job, like, have you ruined 00:21:37.072 --> 00:21:40.916 that perception of the whole community? So you carry a lot 00:21:40.938 --> 00:21:44.788 of that weight as well because we know that that's how people think, oh, we've 00:21:44.804 --> 00:21:48.424 got the first black Prime Minister, for example. If 00:21:48.462 --> 00:21:52.196 they're not great, then that changes the perception 00:21:52.228 --> 00:21:55.224 of the whole black community and whether they can do a good job of being 00:21:55.262 --> 00:21:58.956 a Prime Minister, for example. So I think you carry a lot of 00:21:58.978 --> 00:22:02.684 that weight as well, to really prove you're not just there 00:22:02.722 --> 00:22:05.710 for you, you're there for all of your people. 00:22:06.260 --> 00:22:08.770 Yes, I know what you mean. 00:22:10.260 --> 00:22:13.964 I suppose I'm guilty of it. If I see somebody else who's 00:22:14.012 --> 00:22:16.400 trans or nonbinary or gender diverse, 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:20.976 misrepresenting my view of the world, I think, hang on a minute, 00:22:21.008 --> 00:22:23.780 you don't speak for me, you're damaging my brand. 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:28.772 Yeah, I get that completely, but I guess that's just 00:22:28.826 --> 00:22:32.436 how society and people, we've 00:22:32.468 --> 00:22:35.864 lumped everyone together under these labels, so 00:22:35.982 --> 00:22:38.890 that's how it plays out. So 00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:43.380 I often hear from people one of the biggest barriers to inclusion is the 00:22:43.390 --> 00:22:47.150 fear of getting it wrong. Either doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing, 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:51.244 causing a microaggression inadvertent. So do you 00:22:51.282 --> 00:22:54.750 scare people by being here? 00:22:56.820 --> 00:23:00.480 I hope not. I think I've always 00:23:00.550 --> 00:23:04.352 had feedback and I'm only going based 00:23:04.406 --> 00:23:08.236 on this, that I can often 00:23:08.358 --> 00:23:11.030 break down some of that fear by 00:23:11.800 --> 00:23:15.460 providing people a bit of a safe space to come 00:23:15.610 --> 00:23:19.332 with challenges, perceptions, ideas and 00:23:19.386 --> 00:23:22.664 not place judgement, but help them appreciate the other 00:23:22.702 --> 00:23:26.312 perspective. So, particularly in my last 00:23:26.366 --> 00:23:29.796 role, I worked so closely with our entire extended 00:23:29.828 --> 00:23:33.352 leadership team and exact leadership team and 00:23:33.406 --> 00:23:37.100 built really close relationships with each of them to be 00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:40.888 that safe space. So if they're going on a company town hall and they don't 00:23:40.904 --> 00:23:44.444 know, should they say BAME or 00:23:44.562 --> 00:23:48.256 should they not, like I'm the place that they can come and test 00:23:48.358 --> 00:23:52.208 out those test out 00:23:52.294 --> 00:23:56.000 the ways that they should shouldn't speak their ideas, what they're thinking, 00:23:56.070 --> 00:23:59.910 how to approach things. But I completely 00:24:00.280 --> 00:24:03.940 get the fear. Like, the way that social 00:24:04.010 --> 00:24:07.860 media can come and take you down and cancel you now 00:24:07.930 --> 00:24:11.736 is wild. And I get it because people are 00:24:11.758 --> 00:24:14.970 tired, people are angry, people have been through 00:24:15.500 --> 00:24:19.080 this stuff over and over again, so I get that 00:24:19.150 --> 00:24:22.728 side of things. However, I think it's not 00:24:22.814 --> 00:24:26.524 helpful. Like, we need these people if 00:24:26.562 --> 00:24:30.044 we want to see things change, like, we have to work with 00:24:30.082 --> 00:24:33.790 them. So I always take the approach of 00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:38.130 building close relationships with 00:24:39.300 --> 00:24:42.460 these types of people to be able to understand their fears, 00:24:42.540 --> 00:24:45.856 understand what's been their life experience. Because sometimes 00:24:45.958 --> 00:24:49.764 people hold things that have happened to them that they feel are 00:24:49.802 --> 00:24:53.508 just as important as an issue around race, for example. 00:24:53.594 --> 00:24:56.932 And they haven't necessarily had the education 00:24:57.066 --> 00:25:00.870 around how some of those issues are 00:25:01.340 --> 00:25:04.904 systemic and ingrained in society. So they can't understand 00:25:05.022 --> 00:25:08.804