WEBVTT 00:00:00.650 --> 00:00:04.414 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for 00:00:04.452 --> 00:00:07.966 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have 00:00:07.988 --> 00:00:11.838 interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the 00:00:11.844 --> 00:00:15.614 subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world 00:00:15.652 --> 00:00:19.486 a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the 00:00:19.508 --> 00:00:22.094 future, then please do drop me a line to 00:00:22.132 --> 00:00:25.302 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 00:00:25.356 --> 00:00:28.636 that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. 00:00:28.636 --> 00:00:32.246 You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, 00:00:32.268 --> 00:00:36.022 Spotify and the usual places. So plug 00:00:36.076 --> 00:00:39.834 in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. 00:00:39.872 --> 00:00:43.350 Today is Episode 80 00:00:43.430 --> 00:00:47.210 with the title Beyond The Barriers, and 00:00:47.710 --> 00:00:51.470 I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Belinda Riley. Belinda 00:00:52.210 --> 00:00:55.802 describes herself as a diversity and inclusion consultant 00:00:55.866 --> 00:00:58.474 and also clinical hypnotherapist. 00:00:58.522 --> 00:01:02.046 When I asked Belinda to describe her superpower, 00:01:02.068 --> 00:01:05.842 she said that she truly cares and wants to 00:01:05.896 --> 00:01:09.614 get it right, not just feel like she's right, whilst also 00:01:09.662 --> 00:01:13.442 recognising her own privileges and using those to help others. 00:01:13.496 --> 00:01:16.678 Hello, Belinda, welcome to the show. 00:01:17.404 --> 00:01:21.254 Hello, Joanne. Thank you very much for having me. It's lovely to see you 00:01:21.292 --> 00:01:25.074 again. Yes, it's great to catch up. Belinda, 00:01:25.202 --> 00:01:28.934 tell me we're speaking in the green room, just full, went 00:01:28.972 --> 00:01:32.300 live, and we talk about beyond the barriers. What does that mean to you? 00:01:32.910 --> 00:01:36.682 So, beyond the barriers for me, means a number of different things. And 00:01:36.816 --> 00:01:40.378 in my work, I also do a number of different things. But in essence, it's 00:01:40.394 --> 00:01:44.042 about going beyond the barriers of either limiting 00:01:44.106 --> 00:01:47.710 beliefs that people have that hold them back from 00:01:47.780 --> 00:01:51.370 really achieving their potential or thriving 00:01:51.530 --> 00:01:55.154 in all areas of their life. But it's also, in my 00:01:55.192 --> 00:01:58.322 consultancy work, it's around going beyond the barriers of 00:01:58.376 --> 00:02:02.050 inequality to make workplaces work 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:05.694 for everyone. So, limiting 00:02:05.742 --> 00:02:09.506 beliefs? Yeah. I 00:02:09.528 --> 00:02:12.486 think when we first met, probably about four or five years ago, I was probably 00:02:12.508 --> 00:02:16.006 going through a stage of my life where this sense of 00:02:16.028 --> 00:02:19.100 imposter syndrome, these limiting beliefs, these things hold you back, 00:02:20.510 --> 00:02:24.022 this little voice in your ear that says you can't, you can't, you can't. 00:02:24.166 --> 00:02:27.946 Many people suffer from that, don't they? Oh, absolutely. And 00:02:28.048 --> 00:02:31.610 I'm fascinated, actually, about how impostor syndrome 00:02:32.190 --> 00:02:35.806 shows up for people. And I've done a lot of work in this 00:02:35.828 --> 00:02:39.646 area and there's lots of research in this space, and I think the 00:02:39.668 --> 00:02:43.482 research says that kind of 70% of women experience impostor syndrome, 00:02:43.546 --> 00:02:47.346 40% of men. In my work, what I've kind of 00:02:47.368 --> 00:02:50.770 come across is realising that most people experience 00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:54.574 some form of impostor syndrome or have some kind of impostor 00:02:54.622 --> 00:02:58.102 feelings. That does hold them back. And 00:02:58.236 --> 00:03:02.022 often impostor syndrome can show up in loads of different ways 00:03:02.076 --> 00:03:05.586 of that idea of not feeling good enough, not feeling worthy enough, feeling 00:03:05.618 --> 00:03:09.434 like that you don't belong or that you're a fraud and 00:03:09.472 --> 00:03:13.260 someone's going to find out that you don't really know as much as 00:03:14.110 --> 00:03:17.658 what you say that aligns with what you're doing. 00:03:17.744 --> 00:03:21.486 But for me, more importantly, when I've looked closely into 00:03:21.588 --> 00:03:25.326 impostor syndrome, is seeing how much is being left on the 00:03:25.348 --> 00:03:28.782 table, how many great ideas, how much 00:03:28.836 --> 00:03:32.550 innovation, how many opportunities, how many ideas 00:03:32.650 --> 00:03:36.226 are people not following through because of those 00:03:36.408 --> 00:03:40.114 impostor feelings and those limiting beliefs and those words that they 00:03:40.152 --> 00:03:43.730 tell themselves? And it's inspired me 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.414 to really think more broadly around that and how do I build 00:03:47.452 --> 00:03:51.046 awareness and kind of empower people to overcome those 00:03:51.148 --> 00:03:54.774 impostor feelings so that they can go on and achieve and 00:03:54.812 --> 00:03:57.750 thrive and realise and fulfil their potential? 00:03:58.730 --> 00:04:02.230 So you said just now that proportionally more women 00:04:02.300 --> 00:04:05.882 experienced it than men. I also believe 00:04:05.936 --> 00:04:09.574 that it's kind of people from marginalised, minority or unheard 00:04:09.622 --> 00:04:13.054 voices backgrounds tend to be more is that down to 00:04:13.092 --> 00:04:15.840 socialisation more than anything or is that just 00:04:17.650 --> 00:04:21.054 is it nurturing, basically? Well, what I've kind of 00:04:21.092 --> 00:04:24.754 discovered in the work that I have done is that I 00:04:24.792 --> 00:04:28.066 believe that impostor syndrome is actually compounded by the 00:04:28.088 --> 00:04:31.826 systemic barriers or the systemic inequality that exists in the 00:04:31.848 --> 00:04:34.450 world, and in particular in the workplace. 00:04:35.110 --> 00:04:38.598 And I think often when people are talking about 00:04:38.684 --> 00:04:42.486 impostor syndrome, it's kind of saying that something's wrong with you as an 00:04:42.508 --> 00:04:46.342 individual for having these feelings, but often it's not explored within 00:04:46.396 --> 00:04:49.994 the context of the worlds of which we live and the worlds in which 00:04:50.032 --> 00:04:53.514 we work. And I think that that's why 00:04:53.632 --> 00:04:57.254 often, in my experience and what I see, these impostor feelings 00:04:57.302 --> 00:05:00.826 are compounded for women and other sort of marginalised or 00:05:00.848 --> 00:05:04.606 underrepresented groups. And I think there's a reason for that. And 00:05:04.628 --> 00:05:08.186 I've looked really closely because I think when I started looking at impostor 00:05:08.218 --> 00:05:11.998 syndrome, I remember when I moved from my career in 00:05:12.004 --> 00:05:15.658 the public sector into the private sector, I remember thinking, oh, my 00:05:15.684 --> 00:05:19.220 God, I'm not going to fit. They've employed the wrong person, 00:05:19.910 --> 00:05:22.674 I'm going to get there and they're going to go, thanks so much for coming, 00:05:22.712 --> 00:05:26.142 Belinda, but we've made the wrong decision 00:05:26.286 --> 00:05:30.006 because I thought, based on my ideas about 00:05:30.188 --> 00:05:33.846 the workplace, that I didn't really have a role. But what I 00:05:33.868 --> 00:05:37.618 realised quite quickly when I started this new job is that I 00:05:37.644 --> 00:05:41.398 wasn't the only person who was experiencing these impostor 00:05:41.414 --> 00:05:45.002 feelings or this impostor syndrome. And people who 00:05:45.056 --> 00:05:48.410 I was looking up to, who were and are 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:51.614 absolutely phenomenal leaders of 00:05:51.652 --> 00:05:55.274 businesses, entrepreneurs, I had the privilege in my role 00:05:55.322 --> 00:05:58.906 of working with royalty, with Olympic 00:05:58.938 --> 00:06:02.014 champions, Paralympic champions, world champions, in 00:06:02.132 --> 00:06:05.922 athletes. And I couldn't believe that there was some 00:06:06.056 --> 00:06:09.742 similarity in around some of these impostor feelings. 00:06:09.806 --> 00:06:13.454 And it really triggered in me. Where do these feelings 00:06:13.502 --> 00:06:16.994 come from? Why do people think they're not good enough, even when you've kind of 00:06:17.032 --> 00:06:20.694 achieved what most people would only dream of 00:06:20.732 --> 00:06:24.518 achieving? And where does that come from? So I started kind of doing a 00:06:24.524 --> 00:06:28.006 little bit of inquiry and as you mentioned at the beginning 00:06:28.038 --> 00:06:30.922 of our conversation, I'm also a 00:06:30.976 --> 00:06:34.826 hypnotherapist and really interested in how sort 00:06:34.848 --> 00:06:38.666 of the mind works and the rules of the 00:06:38.688 --> 00:06:42.318 mind and the power of the mind. And I also had the 00:06:42.324 --> 00:06:46.046 privilege of studying with a phenomenal woman called Marissa Pierre. I don't know 00:06:46.068 --> 00:06:49.882 if you've come across her before, but she's a phenomenal 00:06:49.946 --> 00:06:53.530 therapist. She coined rapid transformational 00:06:53.610 --> 00:06:57.026 therapy. And she was saying that in her kind of 00:06:57.048 --> 00:07:00.658 35 years of being a hypnotherapist, a therapist, and 00:07:00.664 --> 00:07:04.514 she uses a number of different types of therapies is that she 00:07:04.552 --> 00:07:08.038 identified that there was kind of three limiting beliefs that 00:07:08.204 --> 00:07:12.054 there's no boundaries to this idea that you're not enough, 00:07:12.252 --> 00:07:16.054 that when you look up, what you want isn't available to 00:07:16.092 --> 00:07:19.586 you. Or this idea that you don't fit or you don't 00:07:19.618 --> 00:07:23.226 belong. And so when I was sort of re upskilling with 00:07:23.248 --> 00:07:26.698 her, I looked into that and was thinking about that in the context of the 00:07:26.704 --> 00:07:30.198 workplace and in the context of the work that I was doing around 00:07:30.304 --> 00:07:34.014 diversity, inclusion and inequality. And 00:07:34.052 --> 00:07:37.274 my role was really looking to advance 00:07:37.402 --> 00:07:40.938 minorities or marginalised groups into leadership roles. 00:07:41.114 --> 00:07:44.450 It really got me thinking about those three 00:07:44.520 --> 00:07:47.826 factors and how does that actually show up in the 00:07:47.848 --> 00:07:51.634 workplace. And what I realised is that when I was 00:07:51.672 --> 00:07:55.422 looking at, in particular women and other marginalised groups, 00:07:55.566 --> 00:07:59.366 we're constantly held to a kind of 00:07:59.388 --> 00:08:03.126 masculine standard around what is success. And we're often told that we 00:08:03.148 --> 00:08:06.342 need to work harder, that we need to do more to be 00:08:06.396 --> 00:08:10.198 successful. And there's often this ingrained belief in workplaces that 00:08:10.204 --> 00:08:13.706 we operate a meritocracy that if you work hard, you will progress at the same 00:08:13.728 --> 00:08:17.354 rate as your peers. But the reality is that's not true. But 00:08:17.392 --> 00:08:20.538 the systems are designed to support that 00:08:20.624 --> 00:08:24.090 process. But then when I looked a little bit deeper as well, 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:27.790 when you look up, it's not available to me. Well, when you look into companies 00:08:27.860 --> 00:08:31.278 and you look in businesses and you look in who is in those seed in 00:08:31.284 --> 00:08:34.554 your leadership for, again, women and marginalised 00:08:34.602 --> 00:08:38.370 groups, there's not that many people that look like you or sound 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:42.110 like you. And then often again, the same communities 00:08:42.190 --> 00:08:45.954 when they're walking into a room and they look around, there 00:08:45.992 --> 00:08:49.554 is, again, only few people that necessarily look like you. 00:08:49.672 --> 00:08:53.366 So when we come back to this idea of I don't belong, or 00:08:53.388 --> 00:08:56.946 I'm not enough, or I don't fit, that is kind of or I'm a fraud, 00:08:56.978 --> 00:09:00.394 or people are going to find out I don't belong, you can. Kind of see 00:09:00.432 --> 00:09:04.074 that those limiting beliefs that we have are compounded every 00:09:04.112 --> 00:09:07.898 day to reinforce this idea that what you're seeing 00:09:07.984 --> 00:09:11.450 is actually true because the world is telling you 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.310 and reinforcing some of those thought processes. 00:09:15.810 --> 00:09:19.534 Yeah, I love that you break the three down. And I always 00:09:19.572 --> 00:09:23.214 think that there's the old adage and you can't be what you can't see, 00:09:23.252 --> 00:09:26.900 and not fitting walking into a room, being the only one 00:09:27.750 --> 00:09:31.506 or seeing other people who are like you not succeeding as 00:09:31.528 --> 00:09:34.814 well as other people are. It creates that limiting 00:09:34.862 --> 00:09:38.534 belief. I agree completely. I think you're also 00:09:38.572 --> 00:09:42.040 right about this perception about you got to be superhuman sometimes. 00:09:42.810 --> 00:09:46.040 I can't show weakness, I can't show failure. And 00:09:46.570 --> 00:09:49.770 as a woman, we end up having to juggle multiple 00:09:51.230 --> 00:09:54.906 home tasks and work tasks and childcare tasks. Even in the 00:09:54.928 --> 00:09:58.234 most modern relationships, there's still 00:09:58.272 --> 00:10:01.980 that unbalanced burden, if you like, 00:10:02.510 --> 00:10:06.238 in many families. So trying to be super human to 00:10:06.244 --> 00:10:09.914 do everything or feeling like you're letting someone down if you can't 00:10:09.962 --> 00:10:13.786 do everything is a massive challenge as well, isn't it? Yeah, 00:10:13.908 --> 00:10:17.330 absolutely. And I think we put ourselves sometimes under 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.926 so much pressure that it kind of reinforces 00:10:21.038 --> 00:10:24.626 this idea of if I make a mistake or if I 00:10:24.648 --> 00:10:28.354 can't do everything that I said I'm going to do or that I fail 00:10:28.402 --> 00:10:32.146 at something, that there's something wrong with me, that I'm 00:10:32.178 --> 00:10:35.990 not good enough. And almost it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy 00:10:36.570 --> 00:10:39.500 around there's not enough feelings. And 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:45.030 the words that we tell ourselves, and I think a lot of people don't realise 00:10:45.110 --> 00:10:48.954 this, is that the words we also tell ourselves are the most important 00:10:49.152 --> 00:10:52.702 words. And often we 00:10:52.756 --> 00:10:56.394 have such a strong inner critic, we're 00:10:56.442 --> 00:11:00.142 very good at internalising the negative. And I just 00:11:00.196 --> 00:11:03.694 wish that we were just as good at internalising the 00:11:03.732 --> 00:11:07.380 positives, our successes and the things that we do well. 00:11:08.630 --> 00:11:12.386 And I think that if we're able to do that, we could start to kind 00:11:12.408 --> 00:11:15.730 of overcome some of those limiting beliefs. 00:11:16.070 --> 00:11:19.314 Yeah, you've probably heard of the phrase fake it till you make it. 00:11:19.432 --> 00:11:23.206 And sometimes it depends on how you say it and how you think about it 00:11:23.308 --> 00:11:26.662 because it can be a kind of a negative term. But I also 00:11:26.716 --> 00:11:30.194 think it's your definition of faking because impostor syndrome 00:11:30.322 --> 00:11:33.450 is almost telling you that everything you're good at is fake. 00:11:33.870 --> 00:11:37.558 So sometimes you've just got to keep on believing in yourself that that faking 00:11:37.574 --> 00:11:41.162 until you make it is not actually you're not actually being fake, you're just 00:11:41.216 --> 00:11:44.334 being really, really hard on yourself and you are good at what you can do. 00:11:44.452 --> 00:11:47.742 Yeah, well, it's interesting that you bring that up. I think 00:11:47.796 --> 00:11:51.626 that in the work that I've been doing as a hypnotherapist and again, studying 00:11:51.658 --> 00:11:55.278 with Marissa Pierre is understanding how the mind works. 00:11:55.444 --> 00:11:59.122 And there's what's called these rules of the mind and this is where this idea 00:11:59.176 --> 00:12:02.946 of kind of faking it till you make it almost comes through. But let me 00:12:02.968 --> 00:12:06.406 give you kind of a new way of kind of reframing that, is that when 00:12:06.428 --> 00:12:10.214 we actually understand how our mind works, we can actually work with 00:12:10.252 --> 00:12:13.958 our mind rather than against it. Because the mind 00:12:14.044 --> 00:12:17.734 doesn't actually distinguish between what is real or 00:12:17.772 --> 00:12:21.206 what is fake, what is fact, what is fiction. 00:12:21.318 --> 00:12:25.002 It's actually just listening and responding to the words that you tell 00:12:25.056 --> 00:12:28.586 it. So the whole idea that you might not believe 00:12:28.688 --> 00:12:32.366 that you are talented at something, but if 00:12:32.388 --> 00:12:35.918 you tell yourself enough, then your mind will actually 00:12:36.004 --> 00:12:39.360 respond to the words that you're saying it. So 00:12:40.290 --> 00:12:43.982 our minds are designed to keep us safe, in essence. And this goes 00:12:44.036 --> 00:12:47.822 back and I know that you've had lots of conversations with previous 00:12:47.886 --> 00:12:51.554 sort of guests around this idea, but our mind 00:12:51.592 --> 00:12:54.914 is designed to take us away from kind of keep us safe. And that also 00:12:54.952 --> 00:12:58.518 means that it takes us away from things that are perceived pain 00:12:58.684 --> 00:13:02.534 towards what is perceived pleasure or safety. But 00:13:02.572 --> 00:13:06.246 when we know that we can work with our minds to tell it 00:13:06.268 --> 00:13:09.594 what we want it to be, so we can shift from I'm not good enough 00:13:09.632 --> 00:13:13.434 to I am enough, through that consistency and that 00:13:13.472 --> 00:13:17.162 repetition, our mind starts to respond and believes what 00:13:17.216 --> 00:13:21.034 we tell it. And so often people talk about 00:13:21.072 --> 00:13:24.890 this whole idea of affirmations and people go 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.638 get a bit icky about sometimes affirmations, but in essence, affirmations are 00:13:28.644 --> 00:13:31.806 just the words that we tell ourselves all the time. And if we go back 00:13:31.828 --> 00:13:35.406 to what we were saying before, so often the words that we tell ourselves are 00:13:35.428 --> 00:13:39.106 very negative. I'm not good at that. No, I can't do that or 00:13:39.128 --> 00:13:42.754 I'm failing or that, or people are going to laugh at me or judge me 00:13:42.792 --> 00:13:46.274 if I do those things and they literally hold ourselves back. But if we start 00:13:46.312 --> 00:13:50.022 to tell ourselves a different narrative because everything actually 00:13:50.076 --> 00:13:53.878 begins with a thought and we've got the power to control 00:13:53.964 --> 00:13:57.334 our thoughts and change out and change our thoughts and our 00:13:57.372 --> 00:14:01.218 thoughts, everything starts with a thought that creates a feeling and 00:14:01.244 --> 00:14:04.938 then that feeling kind of creates a behaviour or an action that then kind 00:14:04.944 --> 00:14:08.746 of creates certain thoughts again. So coming back to that 00:14:08.768 --> 00:14:12.462 idea that you've got to fake it till you make it, actually, if you tell 00:14:12.516 --> 00:14:16.286 your mind something enough, it will start to believe it and then 00:14:16.308 --> 00:14:19.840 your behaviours start to align with that belief system. 00:14:21.010 --> 00:14:24.466 Yeah, I agree. I look back at my 00:14:24.488 --> 00:14:28.274 own journey of the last six years and some of the early 00:14:28.312 --> 00:14:31.566 stages of that imposter syndrome limiting police really impacted 00:14:31.598 --> 00:14:35.060 me. One thing I identified was that 00:14:36.150 --> 00:14:39.942 I didn't have any benchmark just to know 00:14:39.996 --> 00:14:43.554 how I was doing. I didn't have any positive 00:14:43.602 --> 00:14:47.126 reinforcement. I worked alone, like many of us do with 00:14:47.148 --> 00:14:50.794 freelance or independent. So you haven't got colleagues around you 00:14:50.832 --> 00:14:54.634 saying you can compare notes or even when they say, wow, you're doing 00:14:54.672 --> 00:14:57.500 amazing, you go my reaction was now 00:14:58.190 --> 00:15:01.482 I down talk that almost embarrassed to be celebrated 00:15:01.546 --> 00:15:05.370 success. And I eventually 00:15:05.450 --> 00:15:08.942 overcame it by realising that I was benchmarking against 00:15:08.996 --> 00:15:12.702 myself. And the incremental change was almost 00:15:12.756 --> 00:15:15.874 untied with a continuum that very micro changes. I was 00:15:15.912 --> 00:15:19.474 improving and I had to start looking further back. So I had to start 00:15:19.512 --> 00:15:22.740 looking a month ago or two months ago. 00:15:24.150 --> 00:15:27.410 And that's where I started realising 00:15:27.490 --> 00:15:31.126 that I was improving. Yeah. 00:15:31.228 --> 00:15:34.886 And I think it's really interesting that is that sometimes we forget where 00:15:34.908 --> 00:15:38.726 we started and where we've come, and often when 00:15:38.748 --> 00:15:42.426 we start to change and develop and grow, sometimes that can 00:15:42.448 --> 00:15:46.218 feel very incremental. And as you said, unless we're kind 00:15:46.224 --> 00:15:49.482 of clear of where we started, and so often we don't, and often 00:15:49.616 --> 00:15:52.382 we fail to stop and 00:15:52.436 --> 00:15:56.238 celebrate our successes, our wins, some of the, you 00:15:56.244 --> 00:15:59.806 know, whether they're big wins or small wins, and actually seeing the 00:15:59.828 --> 00:16:03.422 progress. And often our limiting beliefs are based on 00:16:03.476 --> 00:16:07.234 experiences that we had years and years and years and years 00:16:07.272 --> 00:16:10.690 ago and aren't actually relevant or aligned to where we are 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:14.466 now. So the fact that you're able to see that, I think 00:16:14.568 --> 00:16:18.214 is phenomenal. And I think sometimes we do just need to cheque in 00:16:18.252 --> 00:16:21.894 with what is it that we've done? Look back 00:16:21.932 --> 00:16:25.606 and see how far we've come, celebrate that, but also get 00:16:25.628 --> 00:16:29.270 clear about where we want to go. What does success 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:32.650 look like to us, and then what is the action we need to be taking 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.518 to achieve that? Someone said to me that it's 00:16:36.534 --> 00:16:40.070 a very British thing to be self deprecating 00:16:40.150 --> 00:16:43.838 or not taking credit for what we can 00:16:43.844 --> 00:16:47.594 do. Is it just a British thing or is it a world over trait? 00:16:47.642 --> 00:16:51.182 This is imposter syndrome. That's a very good question. 00:16:51.316 --> 00:16:54.898 I was having this exact same conversation with a German friend of 00:16:54.904 --> 00:16:57.780 mine only a few days ago. 00:16:58.950 --> 00:17:02.658 And I think that in my experience and I've had the 00:17:02.664 --> 00:17:05.910 privilege of working with people across cultures 00:17:06.490 --> 00:17:10.294 around the world. I think 00:17:10.332 --> 00:17:14.102 the term impostor syndrome is one thing, 00:17:14.156 --> 00:17:17.894 but I think what's sort of equivalent to the impostor feelings I think are 00:17:17.932 --> 00:17:21.674 fairly universal. I think it's just about how you describe it. 00:17:21.712 --> 00:17:24.650 So, yes, I think the British do regularly say, and I'm an Australian, 00:17:27.150 --> 00:17:30.906 and I was trying to think about are we self deprecating in 00:17:30.928 --> 00:17:34.542 the same way that British people are? But I've been in Britain for so long, 00:17:34.596 --> 00:17:38.382 for 20 years, I can't quite distinguish what's different. But no, I do 00:17:38.436 --> 00:17:41.070 think that it's different interpretations 00:17:41.890 --> 00:17:45.726 of how you would describe impostor syndrome. 00:17:45.838 --> 00:17:49.262 But I do feel that when we're looking at kind of more broadly 00:17:49.326 --> 00:17:53.074 limiting beliefs, I feel that most people have them. And 00:17:53.112 --> 00:17:56.918 often those limiting beliefs stem all the way back into 00:17:57.084 --> 00:18:00.582 childhood. And it's about our 00:18:00.636 --> 00:18:04.322 interpretation. So you and I could have experienced 00:18:04.466 --> 00:18:08.226 very similar things or different things, but our limiting beliefs come 00:18:08.268 --> 00:18:11.834 from our interpretation of those events. And then 00:18:11.872 --> 00:18:15.594 every time we're in a situation where those feelings are 00:18:15.632 --> 00:18:19.386 triggered again, it kind of compounds those feelings of not 00:18:19.408 --> 00:18:22.806 being enough or those compounding those feelings of impostor 00:18:22.838 --> 00:18:26.158 syndrome. You said at the 00:18:26.164 --> 00:18:29.706 beginning, I introduced you as a diversity inclusion 00:18:29.738 --> 00:18:33.346 consultant. And one of the things that I always find when I speak to 00:18:33.368 --> 00:18:33.940 people, 00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:41.426 one of the biggest challenges they have is overcoming this 00:18:41.448 --> 00:18:45.230 fear of getting it wrong. Everyone's worried about upsetting somebody to 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.678 the point where they'd rather disengage than engage. So 00:18:48.844 --> 00:18:52.306 how do you get people comfortable having uncomfortable conversations, or feeling 00:18:52.338 --> 00:18:55.720 uncomfortable, if you like, around these kind of 00:18:56.650 --> 00:18:59.846 conversations out of their depth whilst giving them a safe 00:18:59.878 --> 00:19:03.574 space? Yeah, well, first and foremost, I think it's realising 00:19:03.622 --> 00:19:05.130 that you're not alone. 00:19:08.030 --> 00:19:11.834 Most people are more worried about themselves than they are worried about 00:19:11.872 --> 00:19:15.550 the other person and what you think about them. And I think there's something quite 00:19:15.620 --> 00:19:19.294 freeing in that. Again, only the other day 00:19:19.332 --> 00:19:23.166 I was talking to an old colleague and they're like, oh, my God, I said 00:19:23.188 --> 00:19:26.994 that. And I was like, My goodness, nobody would have even noticed that. 00:19:27.032 --> 00:19:30.754 But what you felt, where you'd made a stumble or you'd done 00:19:30.792 --> 00:19:34.082 something wrong, that you really noticed. Nobody else even 00:19:34.136 --> 00:19:37.842 noticed that. So I think also we're very, very harsh 00:19:37.906 --> 00:19:41.222 on ourselves and I think sometimes we've just got 00:19:41.276 --> 00:19:44.886 to kind of let some of that go. I 00:19:44.908 --> 00:19:48.042 think that also we have to get comfortable being 00:19:48.096 --> 00:19:51.834 uncomfortable and creating space and kind of almost 00:19:51.872 --> 00:19:55.418 that psychological safety for people to be able to 00:19:55.504 --> 00:19:58.810 talk about issues and talk about different 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:02.650 experiences, because otherwise, if we're not out there 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.302 learning and building awareness and breaking down some of these barriers, nothing 00:20:06.356 --> 00:20:10.158 ever changes. And I regularly and I do a 00:20:10.164 --> 00:20:13.630 lot of work with leaders and a lot of leaders feel and say to me, 00:20:13.700 --> 00:20:17.106 but what happens if I say the wrong thing? And it's like, 00:20:17.208 --> 00:20:20.340 but, yeah, you might say the wrong thing, 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:24.910 but also, what is your intention? Actually? You often are speaking 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:28.360 louder by not saying anything at all. 00:20:29.050 --> 00:20:32.886 And I know in talking to lots of people, the fact 00:20:32.908 --> 00:20:36.518 that people are willing to have that conversation and open 00:20:36.604 --> 00:20:40.330 to learning and opening to making a mistake 00:20:40.750 --> 00:20:44.554 is far more engaging than feeling like you're not being 00:20:44.592 --> 00:20:47.946 seen heard or even being given the opportunity to have a 00:20:47.968 --> 00:20:51.726 voice. Yeah, we do see 00:20:51.748 --> 00:20:55.546 countless examples, though, in the media where someone's made a slip 00:20:55.578 --> 00:20:59.166 up and they get berated for the recent example of 00:20:59.188 --> 00:21:02.874 the lady waiting to our former queen 00:21:02.922 --> 00:21:06.658 or our deceased queen having a 00:21:06.664 --> 00:21:10.354 conversation to a charity, a black person who's a charity worker, and how that 00:21:10.392 --> 00:21:14.210 conversation went around where you're from. So people see that 00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:17.860 and they either go, oh, that makes me really nervous, or 00:21:18.890 --> 00:21:22.614 the opposite reaction is they get kind of defensive about this political correctness and 00:21:22.652 --> 00:21:26.374 wokeness in society and you can't say anything these days without 00:21:26.412 --> 00:21:30.102 someone jumping on you. How do we kind of have those conversations where we're 00:21:30.246 --> 00:21:34.026 helping people through that? Yeah, I 00:21:34.048 --> 00:21:37.594 think the social media has made life quite challenging for 00:21:37.632 --> 00:21:41.438 people, but also, I think in that example, there was a 00:21:41.444 --> 00:21:45.150 real lack of awareness. And I think that when people do make 00:21:45.220 --> 00:21:47.760 mistakes and what was said 00:21:49.570 --> 00:21:53.374 wasn't appropriate, and I think that they weren't being aware of the impact of 00:21:53.412 --> 00:21:56.962 that constant questioning about, but no, where are you really from? Where are you really 00:21:57.016 --> 00:22:00.514 from? And the impact that that has. I think that 00:22:00.712 --> 00:22:04.494 for me, we have a responsibility to educate 00:22:04.542 --> 00:22:08.086 ourselves and to learn and to 00:22:08.188 --> 00:22:12.006 use those kind of moments around how do we actually reflect and what is 00:22:12.028 --> 00:22:15.714 the impact that that has on other people's lived experiences? 00:22:15.842 --> 00:22:19.626 And I think that for me, where I 00:22:19.648 --> 00:22:23.466 see a real issue is when people aren't open to that 00:22:23.648 --> 00:22:27.078 learning. We talked at the beginning about privilege 00:22:27.174 --> 00:22:30.666 and it is about recognising that we have got 00:22:30.768 --> 00:22:34.590 certain privileges, but also it's around 00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:38.446 there's a great quote that I often use in my work and I better 00:22:38.468 --> 00:22:42.286 make sure I get it right. It's a Stephen Covey quote, is that we 00:22:42.308 --> 00:22:45.810 see the world not as it is, but as we are. 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.794 And I think that for me, that's really important, that 00:22:49.832 --> 00:22:53.682 we start from a place of acknowledging that 00:22:53.816 --> 00:22:57.142 and then being open to learning to make sure 00:22:57.196 --> 00:23:00.706 that we do continue to evolve. I think it's 00:23:00.738 --> 00:23:04.374 difficult, though, I think, because a lot of people are persecuted for 00:23:04.492 --> 00:23:08.122 saying the wrong thing. But I also 00:23:08.176 --> 00:23:11.882 think that sometimes it's about 00:23:11.936 --> 00:23:14.778 the intent and it's also 00:23:14.864 --> 00:23:18.522 recognising the barriers that certain people do 00:23:18.576 --> 00:23:21.882 face every day. And that was a classic 00:23:21.946 --> 00:23:25.614 example of that, of not recognising and not 00:23:25.652 --> 00:23:27.520 being aware of and not, 00:23:29.490 --> 00:23:32.400 I suppose, almost reinforcing an issue. 00:23:33.890 --> 00:23:37.502 Yeah, I agree that most most people are, by definition, 00:23:37.566 --> 00:23:41.166 good at heart. Most people want to do well in the world, they wake 00:23:41.198 --> 00:23:44.866 up with positive intent. But as as you 00:23:44.888 --> 00:23:47.990 as we just discussed, the intent 00:23:48.410 --> 00:23:52.034 doesn't always cover the impact. We have negative 00:23:52.082 --> 00:23:55.910 impact and we slip up. 00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:59.634 How do we recover that if we realise we've created a negative 00:23:59.682 --> 00:24:03.494 impact or a problematic impact? Yeah, well, I think it's also about acknowledging 00:24:03.542 --> 00:24:07.194 it. It's not denying that it happened. I think that we have to get 00:24:07.232 --> 00:24:10.886 comfortable owning our mistakes and acknowledging it. 00:24:10.928 --> 00:24:14.302 So acknowledging the mistake, apologising for 00:24:14.356 --> 00:24:17.886 it, learning from it, but also then we need to be able to 00:24:17.988 --> 00:24:21.694 move on. And I think that often we 00:24:21.732 --> 00:24:24.814 don't do that. And I see that and I think actually one of the biggest 00:24:24.862 --> 00:24:28.674 barriers to the work that I know that both you and I are very 00:24:28.712 --> 00:24:32.146 passionate around advancing equality in the 00:24:32.168 --> 00:24:35.482 workplace is the denial of the inequality that exists 00:24:35.646 --> 00:24:39.240 and people not taking responsibility for 00:24:41.530 --> 00:24:44.838 making change. There is enough 00:24:44.924 --> 00:24:48.742 information out there for us to just because 00:24:48.796 --> 00:24:52.326