WEBVTT 00:00:00.599 --> 00:00:04.200 Hello everyone, my name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the 00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:07.799 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series I've 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:11.580 interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the 00:00:11.580 --> 00:00:15.420 subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world 00:00:15.420 --> 00:00:19.119 a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in 00:00:19.119 --> 00:00:21.740 the future then please do drop me a line to 00:00:21.740 --> 00:00:24.000 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 00:00:25.599 --> 00:00:29.393 that's S-E-E Change Happen 00:00:29.394 --> 00:00:32.980 dot co dot uk You can catch up with all of the previous shows 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:36.860 on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. 00:00:36.860 --> 00:00:40.620 So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's 00:00:42.040 --> 00:00:45.400 get going. Today is episode 82 00:00:45.400 --> 00:00:49.220 with the title Challenging the Toxicity 00:00:50.020 --> 00:00:53.380 of Bullying. I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome 00:00:54.660 --> 00:00:57.780 Nicki Eyre. Nicki describes herself as a workplace 00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:01.900 bullying expert. When I asked Nicki to describe her superpower, 00:01:02.580 --> 00:01:06.420 She said that she turns a bad situation into 00:01:07.060 --> 00:01:09.760 a positive, never gives up even when it's 00:01:10.800 --> 00:01:14.280 really tough. Hello Nicki, welcome to the show. Hi 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.060 Jo, absolutely lovely to be here with you today. 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:21.540 Yes, likewise. I took part in your conference last year and it was an 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:24.700 excellent and you can tell us all about that later if you wish. So, Nicky, 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:30.220 toxicity of bullying, how do we challenge it? Tell us about that. 00:01:31.160 --> 00:01:34.840 Well, the first thing that everybody can do, Jo, is exactly what we're doing here, 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:38.520 and that's talking about it. Let's shout it from the 00:01:38.520 --> 00:01:42.280 rooftops. This is a subject that needs to be discussed. It needs 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:46.120 to be brought out into the open, and we need to 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:49.940 be helping people to understand exactly what it is, 00:01:49.940 --> 00:01:53.620 what it looks like, and most importantly the damage that it 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:57.340 can do. So that's definitely the starting point, 00:01:57.340 --> 00:02:01.020 let's have these conversations. So you said 00:02:01.020 --> 00:02:04.700 there, describe it, what 00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:07.540 is bullying? Is it What it looks like, what it feels like, what it sounds 00:02:07.540 --> 00:02:10.539 like. So what is it? What does it sound and feel like? 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:14.800 So the thing about bullying is that there's a whole spectrum of bullying 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:18.240 behaviours and they can start from those really 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:21.360 small moments of rudeness and incivility 00:02:22.160 --> 00:02:25.680 and go right up to violence in the 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:29.040 workplace. So it can be physical or 00:02:29.040 --> 00:02:32.340 emotional injury that is suffered as a result. 00:02:33.660 --> 00:02:37.200 And there's all sorts of different behaviours in between and some of 00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:40.360 those are verbal behaviours, 00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:44.400 so talking about other people, gossiping 00:02:44.440 --> 00:02:48.180 about them, spreading rumours, shouting at 00:02:48.180 --> 00:02:51.780 them or even not talking to them at all, 00:02:51.780 --> 00:02:55.280 blanking them, ignoring them, excluding them. 00:02:55.940 --> 00:02:59.700 And that can be done physically as well. So you get into 00:02:59.700 --> 00:03:03.280 people's faces, you encroach their personal space or you 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.900 block them from joining a conversation with just a small turn of 00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:10.580 the shoulder. Right up to 00:03:10.760 --> 00:03:13.650 physical violence, which is assault basically. And 00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:18.780 Then all the psychological impact as well. 00:03:20.540 --> 00:03:24.180 When we start thinking about the psychological side, this is really the most 00:03:24.720 --> 00:03:28.260 common workplace form of bullying now. It's 00:03:28.260 --> 00:03:31.920 very much about getting people to doubt themselves, doubt their 00:03:31.920 --> 00:03:35.560 own sanity, questioning them all the time, 00:03:35.660 --> 00:03:39.340 humiliating them, stealing their 00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:43.140 credit for their ideas so that people think, well, 00:03:43.140 --> 00:03:46.700 they're just making things up when they say that that was my idea. 00:03:47.720 --> 00:03:50.100 So absolutely people end up withdrawn 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:56.120 and really scared to speak up in those situations because every time they 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.500 try and speak up, they get punished for it. That's 00:03:59.500 --> 00:04:03.180 a very broad brush stroke approach to 00:04:03.340 --> 00:04:06.060 all the different kind of behaviours that can be involved. 00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:11.100 It becomes bullying behaviour when you start to get a pattern 00:04:11.260 --> 00:04:14.620 of behaviours, particularly when it's targeted towards 1 00:04:14.620 --> 00:04:17.640 person. And also 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:21.880 when we're thinking about there's a power dynamic involved, 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:25.760 which doesn't necessarily mean that it's got to be a boss. 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:30.140 A power dynamic can come from just holding information 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:33.900 about somebody, having a photo of somebody that they don't 00:04:33.900 --> 00:04:37.700 want you to share. It can be peer-to-peer, it can be 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:41.420 upwards, it can be downwards. Bullying can happen in every 00:04:41.420 --> 00:04:45.140 different direction and the area of bullying that 00:04:45.140 --> 00:04:48.780 I focus on is non-discriminatory. So 00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:53.800 I think of harassment as bullying attached to 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:57.520 a protected characteristic. But there's a huge 00:04:57.520 --> 00:05:01.200 amount of non-discriminatory bullying, which is, it 00:05:01.200 --> 00:05:04.920 comes about just because it may just be that you don't like that 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:08.560 person or you're threatened by them. There are lots and lots of different reasons why 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:12.340 these situations arise. And I've been chatting for ages 00:05:12.340 --> 00:05:16.080 there, Joe, so I'll pause for a breath and let you come in with any 00:05:16.080 --> 00:05:19.300 questions there. That's interesting yeah because 00:05:20.140 --> 00:05:23.460 as I'm sure you and many of our listeners are aware discrimination 00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:28.340 is defined in the Equality Act and harassment is 00:05:28.340 --> 00:05:32.160 also defined in the Equality Act, the UK Equality 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.280 Act 2010, whereas bullying isn't. So the 00:05:35.660 --> 00:05:39.220 distinction you're making is it's not just about having a protected 00:05:39.220 --> 00:05:43.040 characteristic, this is bullying that occurs outside of the protected 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:45.760 characteristics, where you're using the word bullying 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.020 rather than harassment, which is a legal definition as part of the Equality 00:05:50.020 --> 00:05:53.860 Act. Yes, absolutely spot on. And 00:05:53.860 --> 00:05:57.180 a lot of people don't realise that there is a difference in law 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.840 and they'll use harassment and bullying interchangeably. 00:06:01.940 --> 00:06:05.760 And actually in law, as you rightly say, anything to 00:06:05.760 --> 00:06:09.320 do with harassment and discrimination and victimization is covered in the 00:06:09.320 --> 00:06:13.000 Equality Act but bullying that isn't linked to 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.780 a protected characteristic it's a very very different 00:06:16.780 --> 00:06:20.600 situation. So anybody who's in a workplace has to have 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:24.260 worked there for at least 2 years before 00:06:24.660 --> 00:06:28.140 they have any protection rights and you 00:06:28.140 --> 00:06:31.780 can't actually bring a bullying claim to an 00:06:31.780 --> 00:06:35.380 employment tribunal. What you have to do is leave your 00:06:35.380 --> 00:06:38.940 job and bring a claim such as a constructive dismissal 00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:42.760 or something like that. The other option available to 00:06:42.760 --> 00:06:46.160 you is to get injured to the 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.720 point of having a psychiatric injury, a recognised psychiatric 00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:52.660 injury, and then you can take it through the civil courts 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:57.180 in terms of personal injury, which is very, very 00:06:57.180 --> 00:07:00.960 different to harassment, where you're protected from recruitment 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:04.440 stages and you can stay in your job and bring a 00:07:04.440 --> 00:07:07.060 claim and you can 00:07:07.880 --> 00:07:11.540 get, you can claim for injury 00:07:11.740 --> 00:07:15.360 to feelings as well which you can't do in the 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.060 case of a bullying situation. So 00:07:19.060 --> 00:07:22.700 in law, they're treated very, very differently. And currently workplace 00:07:22.740 --> 00:07:26.120 bullying is not recognised in the 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:28.000 UK legislation system. 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:33.780 I have some experience of this situation. My wife, 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:36.260 almost a year ago this month, 00:07:37.760 --> 00:07:41.580 exited her role of 7 or 8 years with 00:07:41.580 --> 00:07:45.040 a constructive dismissal resignation letter. And you're 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.840 Right, the onus was then on her to leave before she could 00:07:48.840 --> 00:07:52.540 do anything about it. And of course the company's response was, you 00:07:52.540 --> 00:07:55.820 should have followed our grievance process before it got to this. 00:07:56.580 --> 00:07:59.980 However, in her particular case, the grievance process 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:02.860 went through the people that were causing the problem. 00:08:03.940 --> 00:08:07.620 And she felt she had lack of support or no support 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.920 from her immediate team lead, her manager. And in fact, it got to the 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.560 point where she went, she was told she wasn't allowed to resign 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:19.640 with that letter because they wanted her to remove the 00:08:19.640 --> 00:08:23.160 words constructive dismissal and bullying from her resignation letter 00:08:23.440 --> 00:08:27.040 before they would accept it. So we had to get a solicitor and an HR 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:30.860 advisor involved to basically tell 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:34.640 us that it stands and here's our reply 00:08:34.640 --> 00:08:38.360 to your reply. So you're further bullying me. You're not allowing me 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:41.880 to resign. You're making my mental health impacted even 00:08:41.880 --> 00:08:45.720 more through your unwillingness to engage in victim 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:49.520 blame or my wife's blame. And 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:52.660 yeah, it was an incredible situation where 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:58.740 she ended up, instead of working her notice, she ended up signing herself 00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:01.640 off sick because she couldn't get out of bed. She was crying her eyes out. 00:09:01.640 --> 00:09:04.340 She felt she really was bullied by this. 00:09:05.280 --> 00:09:08.640 Yeah and you know what you've picked up there is actually the damage that it 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:12.180 does to individuals and the grievance 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:16.160 procedures in themselves. I can completely understand 00:09:16.160 --> 00:09:18.960 why you know if it's got to go through those people you have no faith 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.700 in the system. The grievance and disciplinary procedures 00:09:22.760 --> 00:09:26.580 that we use are really not fit for purpose in 00:09:26.580 --> 00:09:30.340 these kind of cases at all. You have to think 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:33.840 about, are you prepared to do that to yourself 00:09:33.920 --> 00:09:37.300 almost, whether or not you go through that route, but the 00:09:37.300 --> 00:09:41.000 onus is still on individuals who have been bullied to speak 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.580 up all the time and that's where we've got to turn things 00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:48.380 around hugely because it's time for 00:09:48.380 --> 00:09:52.120 it to be recognised as an organisational issue and not 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:55.940 an individual issue because there are working practices that 00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:59.540 allow bullying complaints to be more likely to 00:09:59.540 --> 00:10:03.340 occur, if you like. But even when you do go through those 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:07.060 processes, you know, if I go, oh, we've got an anti-bullying 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:10.680 policy and we've got a grievance procedure and we've got this, that, and the 00:10:10.680 --> 00:10:14.080 other, the stress of going through those is 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:17.860 enormous. And there's no really strong 00:10:17.860 --> 00:10:21.640 statistics, but kind of colloquial 00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:25.260 evidence, if you like, is that somewhere around 80 00:10:25.260 --> 00:10:28.980 to 90% of bullying complaints 00:10:29.300 --> 00:10:32.980 are not upheld. So you've got a 00:10:32.980 --> 00:10:36.680 system with 80, 90% failure 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:40.120 rate and yet we're still being told to use 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.860 it. So we have to look at different ways of doing 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:47.380 this and it's got to start with first of all, 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:51.180 people understanding what bullying is, but secondly, 00:10:51.500 --> 00:10:55.160 starting to try and prevent it rather than allow 00:10:55.160 --> 00:10:58.700 it to go to that stage where people's health is getting 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:00.860 damaged. I completely 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.400 empathize with your wife about that feeling so 00:11:06.400 --> 00:11:09.000 bad that you just don't want to get out of bed, you're crying all the 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.540 time. Absolutely, I went through that with my own experience of 00:11:12.540 --> 00:11:15.800 bullying and it is massive the impact that it has. 00:11:16.420 --> 00:11:20.080 She still has an element of PTSD from it because every 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.800 time we drive on the dual carriageway that overlooks that 00:11:23.800 --> 00:11:27.560 building where she used to work, you can tell her she's kind of, 00:11:27.560 --> 00:11:30.920 it's flashback in her mind. So it's not a thing that 00:11:30.920 --> 00:11:34.440 just fades quickly. There is PTSD in this environment. 00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:39.000 There is and there's a couple of psychologists who have written 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:42.660 a paper about workplace bullying trauma. Evelyn 00:11:42.660 --> 00:11:45.900 Field who's in Australia and Pat Ferris who's in Canada 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:49.740 and they have 20, 25 years of 00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:53.440 working with people who have been on the receiving end of workplace 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.980 bullying. Basically what they said 00:11:56.980 --> 00:12:00.720 is there are a number of different ways 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.460 in which this affects people. So it obviously affects your 00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:08.180 psychological health and you mentioned you know your wife's mental health there 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.700 has a hugely damaging impact. Depression, 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.460 anxiety, panic attacks, loss of 00:12:15.460 --> 00:12:19.200 concentration, confusion, flashbacks, all of those things 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:22.800 come in there. That spreads to your physical health as 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:25.020 well. Fatigue, 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.820 muscle ache, headaches, migraines, your 00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:33.540 behavior changes, the tears, the angry outbursts 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:37.480 and everything like that. There's all different 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.400 ways in which it changes you. It destroys your self-esteem, 00:12:41.180 --> 00:12:44.560 your confidence, all of those different areas. 00:12:45.860 --> 00:12:48.640 I know when I went through it, I always say that I felt like I 00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:52.360 lost myself and I felt like I just became 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.020 a different person. It was a person that I didn't like 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:00.540 because I started shouting at other people. They were coming to me and 00:13:00.540 --> 00:13:04.300 saying, it's obviously making you ill, maybe you should give up, but 00:13:04.300 --> 00:13:08.100 that need to fight and get justice 00:13:08.180 --> 00:13:11.980 for what has happened is almost overwhelming. And 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:15.600 1 of the things that you get with workplace bullying is this 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.440 rumination, so this constantly going over and over and 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:23.240 over things in your mind, but also it differs from 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:26.720 other kind of trauma in that you want to talk to everybody 00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:30.460 else around you and they actually, 00:13:30.660 --> 00:13:34.147 you know, you draw them in until they're 00:13:34.147 --> 00:13:37.634 exhausted and then you draw the next set 00:13:37.634 --> 00:13:41.121 of people in until they're exhausted and eventually 00:13:41.121 --> 00:13:44.608 you exhaust yourself and you just become broken. 00:13:44.608 --> 00:13:48.080 So that trauma element is incredibly real 00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:52.480 and some of the work that Pat and Evelyn did they looked at kind 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.160 of 3 different levels and if workplace bullying is 00:13:56.160 --> 00:13:59.840 caught quite early on then if it's 00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:03.760 what they call mild, a mild case. So they might just have had a 00:14:03.760 --> 00:14:07.540 short period off work, may even still be in work, then there 00:14:07.540 --> 00:14:10.580 is potential to turn things around 00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:14.160 and keep them working in a healthy way. 00:14:15.280 --> 00:14:19.000 A more moderate might be you know you're off work for several 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:22.820 months and that's when you start to experience a lot 00:14:22.820 --> 00:14:26.540 of the symptoms I just talked about. But for the most severe 00:14:26.680 --> 00:14:29.440 cases, some of those people never work again. 00:14:30.660 --> 00:14:33.400 They can end up on the benefit system. 00:14:36.140 --> 00:14:39.360 They're never able to really let go of what has happened. 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.240 But that moment you talked about there, 00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:47.500 with seeing the building where you worked, or it might 00:14:47.500 --> 00:14:51.020 be seeing someone you used to work with and having that 00:14:51.020 --> 00:14:54.760 moment of panic or that going back into 00:14:54.760 --> 00:14:58.580 that vital flight mode, that stress response that you lived 00:14:58.580 --> 00:15:02.280 in for so long, that's incredibly common And 00:15:02.280 --> 00:15:05.800 so it's very easy for people to go, well, it's just another 00:15:05.800 --> 00:15:09.480 HR case. It's another grievance. We've got an outcome. That's it, end 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.140 of case. Oh, it does not stop there. It keeps going 00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:16.860 and going and it actually affects, you know, it's not just 00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:20.660 your working relationship, it affects relationships all around you, 00:15:21.340 --> 00:15:25.080 friendships, you know, personal relationships, all of 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.480 those things get, that ripple effect is huge. 00:15:28.900 --> 00:15:32.700 And most people probably, if they walk away from a job, they quite 00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:36.340 often walk away from a lot of friends at that point as well 00:15:36.340 --> 00:15:40.080 too. I use the word victim when I 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:43.540 describe my wife just now and I know that when we spoke before we started 00:15:43.540 --> 00:15:46.740 recording that you don't use the word victim although victimization 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:51.520 comes out of the Equality Act. So what's the best terminology 00:15:51.540 --> 00:15:55.240 to use when we're talking about this? So for me, I always use the 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.900 word target, because when 00:15:58.900 --> 00:16:02.660 you are bullied, you are targeted. So What 00:16:02.660 --> 00:16:06.300 tends to happen is that the relationship between you and that bully is really 00:16:06.300 --> 00:16:10.120 quite unique, which again is why we do an awful lot 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.940 of, well, what are they like with you and have you 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:17.460 ever seen that side of them? The chances are that people haven't 00:16:18.220 --> 00:16:22.060 because they will have targeted you or they will 00:16:23.760 --> 00:16:27.340 very much be a lot of covert, behind closed doors, 00:16:27.340 --> 00:16:31.160 one-to-one meetings type behavior that 00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:33.680 other people don't understand. 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:40.140 It's quite individual in terms of what people perceive as bullying. 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.060 So what might be bullying to 1 person might not be for another. So 00:16:44.060 --> 00:16:47.860 from that point of view, then actually this is 00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:51.340 where we need to think about how is whatever you're saying being 00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:55.080 received? What is the delivery of that 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.820 message like? What is the 00:16:58.820 --> 00:17:02.540 impact you're having on the other person? We've got to become much more self-aware 00:17:02.900 --> 00:17:05.680 and aware of the impact that we're having on other people. 00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:09.240 And so from that point of view, 00:17:11.260 --> 00:17:14.960 when you think about that person's relationship, it is 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.339 targeted. And in 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:22.060 that sense, so if I think about my experience, a lot of 00:17:22.060 --> 00:17:24.180 what went on was in one-to-one meetings. 00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:30.160 But I felt that I was treated differently to other 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.880 people and they tried to say that I wasn't. 00:17:36.280 --> 00:17:40.080 But this was somebody who 00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:43.820 had a favourite in the group as well and it was very obvious. 00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:48.060 So, you know, he obviously did treat people differently 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:52.940 in the team, but it's really hard 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:57.780 to articulate things like that. 00:17:58.260 --> 00:18:01.820 And this is 1 of the biggest problems. So when we come 00:18:01.820 --> 00:18:04.660 to trying to explain what has happened, 00:18:05.500 --> 00:18:08.860 you start to pick up things like, well, they rolled their eyes at me, or 00:18:08.860 --> 00:18:12.520 they didn't ask me if I wanted a coffee, or they didn't send 00:18:12.520 --> 00:18:16.060 me some information I wanted, or they didn't reply to my 00:18:16.060 --> 00:18:19.700 email, or they copied me in, and they copied all these other people in on 00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:23.420 an email that was sent out and individually on their own, 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.120 they don't sound like anything at all. So 00:18:28.120 --> 00:18:31.860 when you're kind of exploring, particularly in an investigation, that relationship 00:18:32.020 --> 00:18:35.740 between the 2 people and the target is sitting there going, well 00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:39.340 they did this and they did that. It's really easy to dismiss 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.040 that and go, well so what, well so what. 00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:46.740 But actually It's the fact that it is nonstop 00:18:47.040 --> 00:18:50.760 and it's that drip, drip, drip effect that keeps you 00:18:50.760 --> 00:18:54.560 in that stress response because you're never quite sure 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:58.220 when the next threat is coming around the corner. 00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:03.220 From that point of view, you are targeted because 00:19:04.260 --> 00:19:07.260 something will have started you feeling that way. 00:19:10.280 --> 00:19:13.720 For me, it was a really clear moment in time, but 00:19:14.060 --> 00:19:17.860 when that relationship starts to break down, if that person hasn't 00:19:17.860 --> 00:19:20.580 got the self-awareness to recognize what they've done, 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:25.280 then it's really hard to pull back and if they keep pushing 00:19:26.600 --> 00:19:30.400 and if they keep pushing especially after you've tried to 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.180 talk to them about it, that's 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:38.460 intentional and we don't talk about intent in bullying anymore, we 00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:42.100 talk about impact more. But people say to me, when do you know 00:19:42.100 --> 00:19:45.720 it's intentional? I went, well, when you've told them they're doing something wrong and they 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.480 do absolutely nothing to change it. That's good you picked 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.940 up on that because I, before we could record this, I did a bit of 00:19:52.940 --> 00:19:56.580 googling. Now, what is bullying and what I got back was 00:19:56.580 --> 00:20:00.060 repeated behaviour which is intended to hurt someone either emotionally or 00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:03.760 physically. I was going to ask you, who decides 00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:07.540 the intent? Is it the person who communicates it or the person who receives 00:20:07.540 --> 00:20:10.220 it? So for you to say that actually impact, 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.340 as perceived by the target, overrides 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:18.340 intent, because there's so many people who are maybe blind to their 00:20:18.340 --> 00:20:21.740 privilege, blind to their manner. Their intent 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.780 is often positive or ignorant, but the impact, 00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:28.840 and as you say, is the repeated element of that impact. 00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:33.900 Yeah, and if you think about the definition of harassment in 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:37.320 the Equality Act, talking about unwanted 00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:41.260 conduct, but it actually uses a phrase in there, 00:20:41.260 --> 00:20:45.060 the purpose or effect. This is the 00:20:45.060 --> 00:20:48.840 same as what we're talking about now. The original definition of 00:20:48.840 --> 00:20:52.400 bullying came from a case 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.980 where a judge did their absolute best to identify 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.520 and define what bullying was. He used the 00:21:00.520 --> 00:21:04.220 word intent in that original definition. And that's where 00:21:04.220 --> 00:21:07.960 ACAS got their original definition from. And that was 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:10.580 back in 2014. So relatively 00:21:11.540 --> 00:21:15.060 recently, even though there's been work going on in this area for 00:21:15.060 --> 00:21:17.780 25 years or so. And 00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:21.960 basically, if you look at the way the ACAS definition has 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:25.440 changed, it included the word intent, then they just 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.980 took intent out. So it was behaviour 00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:33.400 that could cause, that could be defined as 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.240 malicious etc. Now they've changed 00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:41.180 it to actually say behaviour that could 00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:44.120 cause physical or emotional harm. 00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:48.540 That last bit is actually quite a new part of the definition 00:21:49.220 --> 00:21:52.940 and I'm really pleased to see how it's changed over 00:21:52.940 --> 00:21:56.740 the last few years. Because I always use the 00:21:56.740 --> 00:22:00.280 example when people tell me what's the difference between intent and an impact, I say 00:22:00.280 --> 00:22:04.040 well I use the example of manslaughter and murder. With murder, 00:22:04.040 --> 00:22:07.680 the intent is to kill. With manslaughter, the intent is not 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.200 to kill. It's a byproduct of what happened. But the 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.840 impact of both of those is someone dies. So 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.000 It's recognizing the difference between intent and impact. 00:22:19.060 --> 00:22:22.360 By using that as an example, you go, yeah, okay, I've lost a loved 1 00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:25.520 and my family's died, that person's life's been cut short, whether you meant to or 00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:29.200 not. I didn't mean to get into my car after having 5 pints and 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.800 drive home and hurt somebody. I just wanted to go home. But the 00:22:32.800 --> 00:22:36.600 intent doesn't matter. The impact statements, the judge, 00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:40.900 our courts now bring in victims or the families 00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:44.660 of the people who've been impacted to give impact statements, which 00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:48.320 influences sentencing. So impact is really, really being 00:22:48.320 --> 00:22:52.000 taken into consideration when it comes into crime and other things, doesn't it? 00:22:52.360 --> 00:22:56.120 Yeah, and that's really interesting because I've kind of thought about that analogy 00:22:56.120 --> 00:22:59.620 myself before, because it 00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:02.380 is, like you say, the outcome is the same. 00:23:03.120 --> 00:23:06.660 Yet in bullying cases, it's all about 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:10.020 the target being made to prove 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.660 that this has been the impact instead of just being able to say, 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.420 yes, this is the impact. Here's 00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:21.840 my 6 months off work that the doctor signed me off 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.420 saying that it's work-related stress, that I've got depression, that I've got anxiety. 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.960 I've got medical evidence here, doesn't matter. 00:23:30.600 --> 00:23:34.380 It still didn't mean you were bullied. And so I think there's 00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:37.840 a huge amount of learning for the medical profession, 00:23:38.860 --> 00:23:41.700 a huge amount of learning for businesses and organizations, 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:46.380 but there's a huge amount of learning for us as individuals as well. 00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:49.500 Because 1 of the things that I found really hard was 00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:53.600 when you go to put in a bullying complaint, I 00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:57.380 didn't really know what I was doing because I hadn't really thought about 00:23:57.380 --> 00:24:01.160 bullying until that point in time. I don't think I'd 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.860 ever had any training on it. So all I had was an anti-bullying policy 00:24:06.660 --> 00:24:10.120 and do a bit of work around it. And so I was like, I've got 00:24:10.120 --> 00:24:13.780 to write a grievance and I 00:24:13.780 --> 00:24:16.740 should be putting it into words that 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.540 really show, put my case forward, but I don't actually know what those 00:24:21.540 --> 00:24:25.380 words are. I don't actually know what it is I'm trying to prove here. 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.040 And so that in itself, when I look back, I've looked back 00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:33.380 at my investigation document and gone, 00:24:34.060 --> 00:24:37.100 well, actually, that is just incoherent nonsense, 00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:41.880 which I can now look back at and say, well, actually, the reason it was 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.720 incoherent nonsense was because you were in a state of trauma. But as an 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.400 investigator, I would probably have come to the same conclusion and 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.120 not upheld it. But that's when, as an investigator, 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:57.260 that's where you need to be trauma-informed. So I think 00:24:57.260 --> 00:25:00.960 that's a huge area for development in terms 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.660 of this work as well. So if we take, I appreciate 00:25:04.660 --> 00:25:08.160 you're talking specifically about the workplace here, but I've had a lot of guests on 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.840 this show, talk about domestic violence, abuse at home. And 00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:14.940 we're quite, I think we're becoming quite familiar with the words, coercive 00:25:15.260 --> 00:25:18.500 control, gaslighting, and what you were telling me earlier 00:25:19.020 --> 00:25:22.580 about how it manifests itself sounds exactly like 00:25:22.580 --> 00:25:26.240 gaslighting, not good enough, being undermined all the time, and coercive 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.060