Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone, my name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series I've
Joanne Lockwood: interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the
Joanne Lockwood: subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world
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Joanne Lockwood: So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's
Joanne Lockwood: get going. Today is episode 82
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Challenging the Toxicity
Joanne Lockwood: of Bullying. I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome
Joanne Lockwood: Nicki Eyre. Nicki describes herself as a workplace
Joanne Lockwood: bullying expert. When I asked Nicki to describe her superpower,
Joanne Lockwood: She said that she turns a bad situation into
Joanne Lockwood: a positive, never gives up even when it's
Joanne Lockwood: really tough. Hello Nicki, welcome to the show. Hi
Nicki Eyre: Jo, absolutely lovely to be here with you today.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, likewise. I took part in your conference last year and it was an
Joanne Lockwood: excellent and you can tell us all about that later if you wish. So, Nicky,
Joanne Lockwood: toxicity of bullying, how do we challenge it? Tell us about that.
Nicki Eyre: Well, the first thing that everybody can do, Jo, is exactly what we're doing here,
Nicki Eyre: and that's talking about it. Let's shout it from the
Nicki Eyre: rooftops. This is a subject that needs to be discussed. It needs
Nicki Eyre: to be brought out into the open, and we need to
Nicki Eyre: be helping people to understand exactly what it is,
Nicki Eyre: what it looks like, and most importantly the damage that it
Nicki Eyre: can do. So that's definitely the starting point,
Nicki Eyre: let's have these conversations. So you said
Joanne Lockwood: there, describe it, what
Joanne Lockwood: is bullying? Is it What it looks like, what it feels like, what it sounds
Joanne Lockwood: like. So what is it? What does it sound and feel like?
Nicki Eyre: So the thing about bullying is that there's a whole spectrum of bullying
Nicki Eyre: behaviours and they can start from those really
Nicki Eyre: small moments of rudeness and incivility
Nicki Eyre: and go right up to violence in the
Nicki Eyre: workplace. So it can be physical or
Nicki Eyre: emotional injury that is suffered as a result.
Nicki Eyre: And there's all sorts of different behaviours in between and some of
Nicki Eyre: those are verbal behaviours,
Nicki Eyre: so talking about other people, gossiping
Nicki Eyre: about them, spreading rumours, shouting at
Nicki Eyre: them or even not talking to them at all,
Nicki Eyre: blanking them, ignoring them, excluding them.
Nicki Eyre: And that can be done physically as well. So you get into
Nicki Eyre: people's faces, you encroach their personal space or you
Nicki Eyre: block them from joining a conversation with just a small turn of
Nicki Eyre: the shoulder. Right up to
Nicki Eyre: physical violence, which is assault basically. And
Nicki Eyre: Then all the psychological impact as well.
Nicki Eyre: When we start thinking about the psychological side, this is really the most
Nicki Eyre: common workplace form of bullying now. It's
Nicki Eyre: very much about getting people to doubt themselves, doubt their
Nicki Eyre: own sanity, questioning them all the time,
Nicki Eyre: humiliating them, stealing their
Nicki Eyre: credit for their ideas so that people think, well,
Nicki Eyre: they're just making things up when they say that that was my idea.
Nicki Eyre: So absolutely people end up withdrawn
Nicki Eyre: and really scared to speak up in those situations because every time they
Nicki Eyre: try and speak up, they get punished for it. That's
Nicki Eyre: a very broad brush stroke approach to
Nicki Eyre: all the different kind of behaviours that can be involved.
Nicki Eyre: It becomes bullying behaviour when you start to get a pattern
Nicki Eyre: of behaviours, particularly when it's targeted towards 1
Nicki Eyre: person. And also
Nicki Eyre: when we're thinking about there's a power dynamic involved,
Nicki Eyre: which doesn't necessarily mean that it's got to be a boss.
Nicki Eyre: A power dynamic can come from just holding information
Nicki Eyre: about somebody, having a photo of somebody that they don't
Nicki Eyre: want you to share. It can be peer-to-peer, it can be
Nicki Eyre: upwards, it can be downwards. Bullying can happen in every
Nicki Eyre: different direction and the area of bullying that
Nicki Eyre: I focus on is non-discriminatory. So
Nicki Eyre: I think of harassment as bullying attached to
Nicki Eyre: a protected characteristic. But there's a huge
Nicki Eyre: amount of non-discriminatory bullying, which is, it
Nicki Eyre: comes about just because it may just be that you don't like that
Nicki Eyre: person or you're threatened by them. There are lots and lots of different reasons why
Nicki Eyre: these situations arise. And I've been chatting for ages
Nicki Eyre: there, Joe, so I'll pause for a breath and let you come in with any
Nicki Eyre: questions there. That's interesting yeah because
Joanne Lockwood: as I'm sure you and many of our listeners are aware discrimination
Joanne Lockwood: is defined in the Equality Act and harassment is
Joanne Lockwood: also defined in the Equality Act, the UK Equality
Joanne Lockwood: Act 2010, whereas bullying isn't. So the
Joanne Lockwood: distinction you're making is it's not just about having a protected
Joanne Lockwood: characteristic, this is bullying that occurs outside of the protected
Joanne Lockwood: characteristics, where you're using the word bullying
Joanne Lockwood: rather than harassment, which is a legal definition as part of the Equality
Joanne Lockwood: Act. Yes, absolutely spot on. And
Nicki Eyre: a lot of people don't realise that there is a difference in law
Nicki Eyre: and they'll use harassment and bullying interchangeably.
Nicki Eyre: And actually in law, as you rightly say, anything to
Nicki Eyre: do with harassment and discrimination and victimization is covered in the
Nicki Eyre: Equality Act but bullying that isn't linked to
Nicki Eyre: a protected characteristic it's a very very different
Nicki Eyre: situation. So anybody who's in a workplace has to have
Nicki Eyre: worked there for at least 2 years before
Nicki Eyre: they have any protection rights and you
Nicki Eyre: can't actually bring a bullying claim to an
Nicki Eyre: employment tribunal. What you have to do is leave your
Nicki Eyre: job and bring a claim such as a constructive dismissal
Nicki Eyre: or something like that. The other option available to
Nicki Eyre: you is to get injured to the
Nicki Eyre: point of having a psychiatric injury, a recognised psychiatric
Nicki Eyre: injury, and then you can take it through the civil courts
Nicki Eyre: in terms of personal injury, which is very, very
Nicki Eyre: different to harassment, where you're protected from recruitment
Nicki Eyre: stages and you can stay in your job and bring a
Nicki Eyre: claim and you can
Nicki Eyre: get, you can claim for injury
Nicki Eyre: to feelings as well which you can't do in the
Nicki Eyre: case of a bullying situation. So
Nicki Eyre: in law, they're treated very, very differently. And currently workplace
Nicki Eyre: bullying is not recognised in the
Nicki Eyre: UK legislation system.
Joanne Lockwood: I have some experience of this situation. My wife,
Joanne Lockwood: almost a year ago this month,
Joanne Lockwood: exited her role of 7 or 8 years with
Joanne Lockwood: a constructive dismissal resignation letter. And you're
Joanne Lockwood: Right, the onus was then on her to leave before she could
Joanne Lockwood: do anything about it. And of course the company's response was, you
Joanne Lockwood: should have followed our grievance process before it got to this.
Joanne Lockwood: However, in her particular case, the grievance process
Joanne Lockwood: went through the people that were causing the problem.
Joanne Lockwood: And she felt she had lack of support or no support
Joanne Lockwood: from her immediate team lead, her manager. And in fact, it got to the
Joanne Lockwood: point where she went, she was told she wasn't allowed to resign
Joanne Lockwood: with that letter because they wanted her to remove the
Joanne Lockwood: words constructive dismissal and bullying from her resignation letter
Joanne Lockwood: before they would accept it. So we had to get a solicitor and an HR
Joanne Lockwood: advisor involved to basically tell
Joanne Lockwood: us that it stands and here's our reply
Joanne Lockwood: to your reply. So you're further bullying me. You're not allowing me
Joanne Lockwood: to resign. You're making my mental health impacted even
Joanne Lockwood: more through your unwillingness to engage in victim
Joanne Lockwood: blame or my wife's blame. And
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it was an incredible situation where
Joanne Lockwood: she ended up, instead of working her notice, she ended up signing herself
Joanne Lockwood: off sick because she couldn't get out of bed. She was crying her eyes out.
Joanne Lockwood: She felt she really was bullied by this.
Nicki Eyre: Yeah and you know what you've picked up there is actually the damage that it
Nicki Eyre: does to individuals and the grievance
Nicki Eyre: procedures in themselves. I can completely understand
Nicki Eyre: why you know if it's got to go through those people you have no faith
Nicki Eyre: in the system. The grievance and disciplinary procedures
Nicki Eyre: that we use are really not fit for purpose in
Nicki Eyre: these kind of cases at all. You have to think
Nicki Eyre: about, are you prepared to do that to yourself
Nicki Eyre: almost, whether or not you go through that route, but the
Nicki Eyre: onus is still on individuals who have been bullied to speak
Nicki Eyre: up all the time and that's where we've got to turn things
Nicki Eyre: around hugely because it's time for
Nicki Eyre: it to be recognised as an organisational issue and not
Nicki Eyre: an individual issue because there are working practices that
Nicki Eyre: allow bullying complaints to be more likely to
Nicki Eyre: occur, if you like. But even when you do go through those
Nicki Eyre: processes, you know, if I go, oh, we've got an anti-bullying
Nicki Eyre: policy and we've got a grievance procedure and we've got this, that, and the
Nicki Eyre: other, the stress of going through those is
Nicki Eyre: enormous. And there's no really strong
Nicki Eyre: statistics, but kind of colloquial
Nicki Eyre: evidence, if you like, is that somewhere around 80
Nicki Eyre: to 90% of bullying complaints
Nicki Eyre: are not upheld. So you've got a
Nicki Eyre: system with 80, 90% failure
Nicki Eyre: rate and yet we're still being told to use
Nicki Eyre: it. So we have to look at different ways of doing
Nicki Eyre: this and it's got to start with first of all,
Nicki Eyre: people understanding what bullying is, but secondly,
Nicki Eyre: starting to try and prevent it rather than allow
Nicki Eyre: it to go to that stage where people's health is getting
Nicki Eyre: damaged. I completely
Nicki Eyre: empathize with your wife about that feeling so
Nicki Eyre: bad that you just don't want to get out of bed, you're crying all the
Nicki Eyre: time. Absolutely, I went through that with my own experience of
Nicki Eyre: bullying and it is massive the impact that it has.
Joanne Lockwood: She still has an element of PTSD from it because every
Joanne Lockwood: time we drive on the dual carriageway that overlooks that
Joanne Lockwood: building where she used to work, you can tell her she's kind of,
Joanne Lockwood: it's flashback in her mind. So it's not a thing that
Joanne Lockwood: just fades quickly. There is PTSD in this environment.
Nicki Eyre: There is and there's a couple of psychologists who have written
Nicki Eyre: a paper about workplace bullying trauma. Evelyn
Nicki Eyre: Field who's in Australia and Pat Ferris who's in Canada
Nicki Eyre: and they have 20, 25 years of
Nicki Eyre: working with people who have been on the receiving end of workplace
Nicki Eyre: bullying. Basically what they said
Nicki Eyre: is there are a number of different ways
Nicki Eyre: in which this affects people. So it obviously affects your
Nicki Eyre: psychological health and you mentioned you know your wife's mental health there
Nicki Eyre: has a hugely damaging impact. Depression,
Nicki Eyre: anxiety, panic attacks, loss of
Nicki Eyre: concentration, confusion, flashbacks, all of those things
Nicki Eyre: come in there. That spreads to your physical health as
Nicki Eyre: well. Fatigue,
Nicki Eyre: muscle ache, headaches, migraines, your
Nicki Eyre: behavior changes, the tears, the angry outbursts
Nicki Eyre: and everything like that. There's all different
Nicki Eyre: ways in which it changes you. It destroys your self-esteem,
Nicki Eyre: your confidence, all of those different areas.
Nicki Eyre: I know when I went through it, I always say that I felt like I
Nicki Eyre: lost myself and I felt like I just became
Nicki Eyre: a different person. It was a person that I didn't like
Nicki Eyre: because I started shouting at other people. They were coming to me and
Nicki Eyre: saying, it's obviously making you ill, maybe you should give up, but
Nicki Eyre: that need to fight and get justice
Nicki Eyre: for what has happened is almost overwhelming. And
Nicki Eyre: 1 of the things that you get with workplace bullying is this
Nicki Eyre: rumination, so this constantly going over and over and
Nicki Eyre: over things in your mind, but also it differs from
Nicki Eyre: other kind of trauma in that you want to talk to everybody
Nicki Eyre: else around you and they actually,
Nicki Eyre: you know, you draw them in until they're
Nicki Eyre: exhausted and then you draw the next set
Nicki Eyre: of people in until they're exhausted and eventually
Nicki Eyre: you exhaust yourself and you just become broken.
Nicki Eyre: So that trauma element is incredibly real
Nicki Eyre: and some of the work that Pat and Evelyn did they looked at kind
Nicki Eyre: of 3 different levels and if workplace bullying is
Nicki Eyre: caught quite early on then if it's
Nicki Eyre: what they call mild, a mild case. So they might just have had a
Nicki Eyre: short period off work, may even still be in work, then there
Nicki Eyre: is potential to turn things around
Nicki Eyre: and keep them working in a healthy way.
Nicki Eyre: A more moderate might be you know you're off work for several
Nicki Eyre: months and that's when you start to experience a lot
Nicki Eyre: of the symptoms I just talked about. But for the most severe
Nicki Eyre: cases, some of those people never work again.
Nicki Eyre: They can end up on the benefit system.
Nicki Eyre: They're never able to really let go of what has happened.
Nicki Eyre: But that moment you talked about there,
Nicki Eyre: with seeing the building where you worked, or it might
Nicki Eyre: be seeing someone you used to work with and having that
Nicki Eyre: moment of panic or that going back into
Nicki Eyre: that vital flight mode, that stress response that you lived
Nicki Eyre: in for so long, that's incredibly common And
Nicki Eyre: so it's very easy for people to go, well, it's just another
Nicki Eyre: HR case. It's another grievance. We've got an outcome. That's it, end
Nicki Eyre: of case. Oh, it does not stop there. It keeps going
Nicki Eyre: and going and it actually affects, you know, it's not just
Nicki Eyre: your working relationship, it affects relationships all around you,
Nicki Eyre: friendships, you know, personal relationships, all of
Nicki Eyre: those things get, that ripple effect is huge.
Nicki Eyre: And most people probably, if they walk away from a job, they quite
Nicki Eyre: often walk away from a lot of friends at that point as well
Nicki Eyre: too. I use the word victim when I
Joanne Lockwood: describe my wife just now and I know that when we spoke before we started
Joanne Lockwood: recording that you don't use the word victim although victimization
Joanne Lockwood: comes out of the Equality Act. So what's the best terminology
Joanne Lockwood: to use when we're talking about this? So for me, I always use the
Nicki Eyre: word target, because when
Nicki Eyre: you are bullied, you are targeted. So What
Nicki Eyre: tends to happen is that the relationship between you and that bully is really
Nicki Eyre: quite unique, which again is why we do an awful lot
Nicki Eyre: of, well, what are they like with you and have you
Nicki Eyre: ever seen that side of them? The chances are that people haven't
Nicki Eyre: because they will have targeted you or they will
Nicki Eyre: very much be a lot of covert, behind closed doors,
Nicki Eyre: one-to-one meetings type behavior that
Nicki Eyre: other people don't understand.
Nicki Eyre: It's quite individual in terms of what people perceive as bullying.
Nicki Eyre: So what might be bullying to 1 person might not be for another. So
Nicki Eyre: from that point of view, then actually this is
Nicki Eyre: where we need to think about how is whatever you're saying being
Nicki Eyre: received? What is the delivery of that
Nicki Eyre: message like? What is the
Nicki Eyre: impact you're having on the other person? We've got to become much more self-aware
Nicki Eyre: and aware of the impact that we're having on other people.
Nicki Eyre: And so from that point of view,
Nicki Eyre: when you think about that person's relationship, it is
Nicki Eyre: targeted. And in
Nicki Eyre: that sense, so if I think about my experience, a lot of
Nicki Eyre: what went on was in one-to-one meetings.
Nicki Eyre: But I felt that I was treated differently to other
Nicki Eyre: people and they tried to say that I wasn't.
Joanne Lockwood: But this was somebody who
Nicki Eyre: had a favourite in the group as well and it was very obvious.
Nicki Eyre: So, you know, he obviously did treat people differently
Nicki Eyre: in the team, but it's really hard
Nicki Eyre: to articulate things like that.
Nicki Eyre: And this is 1 of the biggest problems. So when we come
Nicki Eyre: to trying to explain what has happened,
Nicki Eyre: you start to pick up things like, well, they rolled their eyes at me, or
Nicki Eyre: they didn't ask me if I wanted a coffee, or they didn't send
Nicki Eyre: me some information I wanted, or they didn't reply to my
Nicki Eyre: email, or they copied me in, and they copied all these other people in on
Nicki Eyre: an email that was sent out and individually on their own,
Nicki Eyre: they don't sound like anything at all. So
Nicki Eyre: when you're kind of exploring, particularly in an investigation, that relationship
Nicki Eyre: between the 2 people and the target is sitting there going, well
Nicki Eyre: they did this and they did that. It's really easy to dismiss
Nicki Eyre: that and go, well so what, well so what.
Nicki Eyre: But actually It's the fact that it is nonstop
Nicki Eyre: and it's that drip, drip, drip effect that keeps you
Nicki Eyre: in that stress response because you're never quite sure
Nicki Eyre: when the next threat is coming around the corner.
Nicki Eyre: From that point of view, you are targeted because
Nicki Eyre: something will have started you feeling that way.
Nicki Eyre: For me, it was a really clear moment in time, but
Nicki Eyre: when that relationship starts to break down, if that person hasn't
Nicki Eyre: got the self-awareness to recognize what they've done,
Nicki Eyre: then it's really hard to pull back and if they keep pushing
Nicki Eyre: and if they keep pushing especially after you've tried to
Nicki Eyre: talk to them about it, that's
Nicki Eyre: intentional and we don't talk about intent in bullying anymore, we
Nicki Eyre: talk about impact more. But people say to me, when do you know
Nicki Eyre: it's intentional? I went, well, when you've told them they're doing something wrong and they
Nicki Eyre: do absolutely nothing to change it. That's good you picked
Joanne Lockwood: up on that because I, before we could record this, I did a bit of
Joanne Lockwood: googling. Now, what is bullying and what I got back was
Joanne Lockwood: repeated behaviour which is intended to hurt someone either emotionally or
Joanne Lockwood: physically. I was going to ask you, who decides
Joanne Lockwood: the intent? Is it the person who communicates it or the person who receives
Joanne Lockwood: it? So for you to say that actually impact,
Joanne Lockwood: as perceived by the target, overrides
Joanne Lockwood: intent, because there's so many people who are maybe blind to their
Joanne Lockwood: privilege, blind to their manner. Their intent
Joanne Lockwood: is often positive or ignorant, but the impact,
Joanne Lockwood: and as you say, is the repeated element of that impact.
Nicki Eyre: Yeah, and if you think about the definition of harassment in
Nicki Eyre: the Equality Act, talking about unwanted
Nicki Eyre: conduct, but it actually uses a phrase in there,
Nicki Eyre: the purpose or effect. This is the
Nicki Eyre: same as what we're talking about now. The original definition of
Nicki Eyre: bullying came from a case
Nicki Eyre: where a judge did their absolute best to identify
Nicki Eyre: and define what bullying was. He used the
Nicki Eyre: word intent in that original definition. And that's where
Nicki Eyre: ACAS got their original definition from. And that was
Nicki Eyre: back in 2014. So relatively
Nicki Eyre: recently, even though there's been work going on in this area for
Nicki Eyre: 25 years or so. And
Nicki Eyre: basically, if you look at the way the ACAS definition has
Nicki Eyre: changed, it included the word intent, then they just
Nicki Eyre: took intent out. So it was behaviour
Nicki Eyre: that could cause, that could be defined as
Nicki Eyre: malicious etc. Now they've changed
Nicki Eyre: it to actually say behaviour that could
Nicki Eyre: cause physical or emotional harm.
Nicki Eyre: That last bit is actually quite a new part of the definition
Nicki Eyre: and I'm really pleased to see how it's changed over
Nicki Eyre: the last few years. Because I always use the
Joanne Lockwood: example when people tell me what's the difference between intent and an impact, I say
Joanne Lockwood: well I use the example of manslaughter and murder. With murder,
Joanne Lockwood: the intent is to kill. With manslaughter, the intent is not
Joanne Lockwood: to kill. It's a byproduct of what happened. But the
Joanne Lockwood: impact of both of those is someone dies. So
Joanne Lockwood: It's recognizing the difference between intent and impact.
Joanne Lockwood: By using that as an example, you go, yeah, okay, I've lost a loved 1
Joanne Lockwood: and my family's died, that person's life's been cut short, whether you meant to or
Joanne Lockwood: not. I didn't mean to get into my car after having 5 pints and
Joanne Lockwood: drive home and hurt somebody. I just wanted to go home. But the
Joanne Lockwood: intent doesn't matter. The impact statements, the judge,
Joanne Lockwood: our courts now bring in victims or the families
Joanne Lockwood: of the people who've been impacted to give impact statements, which
Joanne Lockwood: influences sentencing. So impact is really, really being
Joanne Lockwood: taken into consideration when it comes into crime and other things, doesn't it?
Nicki Eyre: Yeah, and that's really interesting because I've kind of thought about that analogy
Nicki Eyre: myself before, because it
Nicki Eyre: is, like you say, the outcome is the same.
Nicki Eyre: Yet in bullying cases, it's all about
Nicki Eyre: the target being made to prove
Nicki Eyre: that this has been the impact instead of just being able to say,
Nicki Eyre: yes, this is the impact. Here's
Nicki Eyre: my 6 months off work that the doctor signed me off
Nicki Eyre: saying that it's work-related stress, that I've got depression, that I've got anxiety.
Nicki Eyre: I've got medical evidence here, doesn't matter.
Nicki Eyre: It still didn't mean you were bullied. And so I think there's
Nicki Eyre: a huge amount of learning for the medical profession,
Nicki Eyre: a huge amount of learning for businesses and organizations,
Nicki Eyre: but there's a huge amount of learning for us as individuals as well.
Nicki Eyre: Because 1 of the things that I found really hard was
Nicki Eyre: when you go to put in a bullying complaint, I
Nicki Eyre: didn't really know what I was doing because I hadn't really thought about
Nicki Eyre: bullying until that point in time. I don't think I'd
Nicki Eyre: ever had any training on it. So all I had was an anti-bullying policy
Nicki Eyre: and do a bit of work around it. And so I was like, I've got
Nicki Eyre: to write a grievance and I
Nicki Eyre: should be putting it into words that
Nicki Eyre: really show, put my case forward, but I don't actually know what those
Nicki Eyre: words are. I don't actually know what it is I'm trying to prove here.
Nicki Eyre: And so that in itself, when I look back, I've looked back
Nicki Eyre: at my investigation document and gone,
Nicki Eyre: well, actually, that is just incoherent nonsense,
Nicki Eyre: which I can now look back at and say, well, actually, the reason it was
Nicki Eyre: incoherent nonsense was because you were in a state of trauma. But as an
Nicki Eyre: investigator, I would probably have come to the same conclusion and
Nicki Eyre: not upheld it. But that's when, as an investigator,
Nicki Eyre: that's where you need to be trauma-informed. So I think
Nicki Eyre: that's a huge area for development in terms
Nicki Eyre: of this work as well. So if we take, I appreciate
Joanne Lockwood: you're talking specifically about the workplace here, but I've had a lot of guests on
Joanne Lockwood: this show, talk about domestic violence, abuse at home. And
Joanne Lockwood: we're quite, I think we're becoming quite familiar with the words, coercive
Joanne Lockwood: control, gaslighting, and what you were telling me earlier
Joanne Lockwood: about how it manifests itself sounds exactly like
Joanne Lockwood: gaslighting, not good enough, being undermined all the time, and coercive
Joanne Lockwood: control being pushed in. So we're seeing
Joanne Lockwood: bullying from different dimensions here. We're seeing it from the Quality Act against a
Joanne Lockwood: protected characteristic. We're seeing it in a domestic situation, DV
Joanne Lockwood: cases and abuse in the home. And we've got workplace bullying.
Joanne Lockwood: Is there any overarching view of this where we
Joanne Lockwood: could look at it holistically rather than fragmenting or are they so different
Joanne Lockwood: in the way they impact? I don't think they are that different in the
Nicki Eyre: way they impact and a lot of people do refer to it as workplace
Nicki Eyre: abuse and you're absolutely right. You know the similarities
Nicki Eyre: particularly in terms of the gaslighting and
Nicki Eyre: coercive control. Well, actually, that is another. When you think about the
Nicki Eyre: financial control as well, people
Nicki Eyre: stay in jobs because they can't move on
Nicki Eyre: or they've lost their confidence and they're not able to move
Nicki Eyre: on. They've got to put, you know, people don't support other
Nicki Eyre: people who are going through these things because they don't want to
Nicki Eyre: be seen to be a troublemaker, she says in quotes,
Nicki Eyre: because they've got to pay their mortgage, they've got to put food on the table
Nicki Eyre: for their family, you know, they've got to pay their bills. So
Nicki Eyre: absolutely, there is an element of coercive control there
Nicki Eyre: completely. And that can also go down into
Nicki Eyre: the way that people work in terms of, well, I'm not going to
Nicki Eyre: let you have the budget for that, but I'll let that person do
Nicki Eyre: whatever they like with their budget. You can't have any training, but
Nicki Eyre: that person can. So there are all sorts of ways in
Nicki Eyre: which it infiltrates across. But the
Nicki Eyre: impact, yeah, I mean it might start from a different
Nicki Eyre: reason but actually the impact is pretty much the
Nicki Eyre: same for all of these things. And I think 1 of
Nicki Eyre: the things with the workplace,
Nicki Eyre: when you're in a relationship, it's domestic violence, then there is
Nicki Eyre: absolutely, you expect to be treated well within that
Nicki Eyre: relationship. You're supposed to be there because you love each other, you care
Nicki Eyre: for each other, you're going to respect each other.
Nicki Eyre: When you're in a workplace, it's not just that you should respect
Nicki Eyre: each other, but the employer has a duty of care.
Nicki Eyre: And so 1 of the things that is sometimes
Nicki Eyre: talked about is the workplace becomes
Nicki Eyre: the traumatiser. So, where are some
Nicki Eyre: people, perhaps if they're in a domestic violence situation, they
Nicki Eyre: go into work, that's their safe place.
Nicki Eyre: Then, essentially what you've got is people leaving their home
Nicki Eyre: and being forced to go to their traumatiser.
Nicki Eyre: Go and spend the day with your traumatiser.
Nicki Eyre: So that's not going to ever going to make them better. And particularly if
Nicki Eyre: you've gone through a case, even if there's an outcome, even if your
Nicki Eyre: bullying complaint was upheld, it doesn't end
Nicki Eyre: there. So the workplace, the employer
Nicki Eyre: should have done something to keep you safe and stop that happening and
Nicki Eyre: that's where we need to really flip it around and start saying
Nicki Eyre: we've got to put prevention in place, we've got to pick
Nicki Eyre: this up earlier, we've got to intervene earlier and
Nicki Eyre: we've got to stop it going to formal processes because they are
Nicki Eyre: so damaging. The process
Joanne Lockwood: can go wrong though can't it? I mean I'm aware of a friend of
Joanne Lockwood: mine who has been the target, this is the word
Joanne Lockwood: target, of a whistleblowing campaign against them,
Joanne Lockwood: where people lodged complaints using the whistleblowing
Joanne Lockwood: process to undermine
Joanne Lockwood: their credibility in the workplace due to some nebulous
Joanne Lockwood: events. And because the whistleblower policy created was anonymous,
Joanne Lockwood: there was no right of reply. You had to just sit there in a chair
Joanne Lockwood: and take it and try and defend yourself for that, knowing what really happened.
Joanne Lockwood: So we've got to be careful also that we put checks and balances to stop
Joanne Lockwood: these processes being weaponized by bullies. Yeah.
Nicki Eyre: And we talk about this a lot, don't we? We don't really talk about
Nicki Eyre: the person who's on the receiving end of these accusations.
Nicki Eyre: And If it is legitimate, then a
Nicki Eyre: lot of people are actually shocked to discover that people think that they're a bully.
Nicki Eyre: But if it's vexatious,
Nicki Eyre: then there's got to be a way of looking at
Nicki Eyre: that as well. You have to start. 1 of the
Nicki Eyre: things that happens is that any of us we're in this situation
Nicki Eyre: where there's some sort of accusation against us, we're going
Nicki Eyre: to react with a defensive approach
Nicki Eyre: initially. It's just natural. It's a human
Nicki Eyre: reaction. It's the animal reaction. You know, if you get trapped in a corner, you're
Nicki Eyre: going to come out fighting. And actually what you
Nicki Eyre: have to do is allow people to have that initial
Nicki Eyre: reaction and then actually let's come back to this and
Nicki Eyre: let's put some support in and find out what's really happened, what's
Nicki Eyre: really gone on. Let's have those individual conversations,
Nicki Eyre: coaching conversations if needed. Bring someone external in
Nicki Eyre: if you need to, but actually start to have a look at
Nicki Eyre: what the real reasons behind these things are.
Nicki Eyre: And I mean, it's interesting because there's a lot of things in the paper at
Nicki Eyre: the moment where people are coming forward and talking about things
Nicki Eyre: and it took the first person to come forward.
Nicki Eyre: So if you're looking at that, then how on
Nicki Eyre: earth do you deal with it? And
Nicki Eyre: If it's a series of anonymous complaints, which is what you're talking
Nicki Eyre: about with whistleblowing, then actually there
Nicki Eyre: is nowhere to go back. And so, 1 of the things we talk about with
Nicki Eyre: bullying cases is that actually you should put your
Nicki Eyre: name to them because there has to be a right of reply.
Nicki Eyre: So the thing about whistleblowing is, again,
Nicki Eyre: whistleblowing was set up to have a look at where
Nicki Eyre: somebody was doing something that was potentially fraudulent
Nicki Eyre: or against the public purse or
Nicki Eyre: standards or something like that. It wasn't really set up for
Nicki Eyre: individual behaviors. If people are starting
Nicki Eyre: to use it for that, then I think we
Nicki Eyre: almost have to have a little bit of a pushback that says,
Nicki Eyre: let's deal with the right thing in the right way. If this is
Nicki Eyre: a behavioral problem, then we have to come back and we have
Nicki Eyre: to say, let's have a
Nicki Eyre: look at what's going on. If there is evidence
Nicki Eyre: of some sort of fraud or something
Nicki Eyre: that really sits under the whistleblowing arena, then
Nicki Eyre: by all means investigate that. But don't
Nicki Eyre: expect somebody to defend themselves
Nicki Eyre: if you're not able to tell them what it is they've done wrong.
Nicki Eyre: So it is complex, it's really complex, in fact it's getting more complex
Nicki Eyre: as we talk about it.
Joanne Lockwood: I've always felt you have to safeguard both parties.
Joanne Lockwood: The target and
Joanne Lockwood: the perpetrator or alleged because they're an alleged perpetrator.
Joanne Lockwood: So you've got to make sure that you're safeguarding both individuals,
Joanne Lockwood: giving them dignity and respect and believability, because part of this
Joanne Lockwood: is believing, believing what people say. If you start disbelieving
Joanne Lockwood: people, then people won't come forward. So it's creating all that environment
Joanne Lockwood: in a very non-judgmental way, partitioning the 2 parties
Joanne Lockwood: in a way that neither of them feels like they're being prejudged. And it's
Nicki Eyre: a really complex minefield, isn't it? It is, yeah. And I would agree
Nicki Eyre: with you totally. Put support in for both parties.
Nicki Eyre: It may even have been a ripple effect of this around the team.
Nicki Eyre: It may be that you actually need to put some support in for a team
Nicki Eyre: that's, you know, where there's something that has blown up in the team.
Nicki Eyre: But absolutely, for those 2 individuals, they've got to
Nicki Eyre: have support. Support to understand the situation
Nicki Eyre: from their own perspectives and from each other's perspectives,
Nicki Eyre: support to potentially change behaviours, and I would
Nicki Eyre: say on both sides as well.
Nicki Eyre: If somebody feels they've been bullied for a long time, which is what usually
Nicki Eyre: happens before they speak up, then they're going to have
Nicki Eyre: to have support to recover from that process to
Nicki Eyre: rebalance their stress response before they can even start
Nicki Eyre: to talk about the situation. And you have
Nicki Eyre: to be able to do that, but at the same time,
Nicki Eyre: if you put those support systems in place and
Nicki Eyre: changes don't happen and people refuse
Nicki Eyre: to take any of that on board, then you have
Nicki Eyre: to be prepared to make the tough decisions and hold them accountable.
Nicki Eyre: So absolutely always start with
Nicki Eyre: support though, that would always be my approach as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, presumably many, many of the
Joanne Lockwood: cases that start get dropped quickly.
Joanne Lockwood: People run out of steam, they run out of motivation, their
Joanne Lockwood: trauma's there, they just want, I can't take anymore, I just got to move
Joanne Lockwood: on, the PTSD kicks in, they're constantly having to be pushing
Joanne Lockwood: that zone where they remember what happened and it's like,
Joanne Lockwood: life's too short, I just need to get this out. So a lot of the
Joanne Lockwood: time we haven't got the stamina to go forward, have
Joanne Lockwood: we? No, absolutely. And for some
Nicki Eyre: people, they'll vote with their feet very early
Nicki Eyre: on and just leave. But for the people who do start to go
Nicki Eyre: through these processes, then... I know from my own point of
Nicki Eyre: view, I went through a grievance and that involved,
Nicki Eyre: well, I had to go and find the evidence
Nicki Eyre: because the bullying had been going on for the best part of 2 years at
Nicki Eyre: this point. I had to go back because they were like,
Nicki Eyre: oh, document it. As soon as it happens, document it. You
Nicki Eyre: don't know when it's happening. You don't realize until you've been in
Nicki Eyre: it for a long time that, well, you're not
Nicki Eyre: prepared to admit it to yourself probably to start off with. I wasn't. I was
Nicki Eyre: a strong independent woman in a senior position. I couldn't be bullied. That
Nicki Eyre: was ridiculous. So I didn't collect any evidence
Nicki Eyre: as I went along. So I had to go back and find it all. So
Nicki Eyre: first of all, you have to remember it. So you're reliving the trauma there. Then
Nicki Eyre: you have to collect the evidence so you're reliving the trauma again.
Nicki Eyre: Then you have to put it all into order and put it into a document
Nicki Eyre: ready to submit your grievance so you're reliving the trauma again. Then
Nicki Eyre: you go through an investigation, you relive it again.
Nicki Eyre: Then you have the outcome, you relive it again. All of these
Nicki Eyre: times and every conversation in between, you're
Nicki Eyre: reinforcing the trauma because your brain does not know the
Nicki Eyre: difference between whether it's happening right there, right then,
Nicki Eyre: or whether it's just a memory. And so you're
Nicki Eyre: reinforcing that trauma all the time. And if
Nicki Eyre: somebody comes in and then goes, we don't believe you and we dismiss
Nicki Eyre: you, that creates a secondary level of trauma.
Nicki Eyre: And so the way in which those formal processes are
Nicki Eyre: dealt with has a huge impact on how
Nicki Eyre: that person responds. So people going through
Nicki Eyre: that are soon going to run out of stamina. They're soon going to run
Nicki Eyre: out of, become less resilient.
Nicki Eyre: It is so damaging that so few get to
Nicki Eyre: tribunal because people just know that they haven't got the
Nicki Eyre: energy to go through there. Tribunals are being booked
Nicki Eyre: some like 2 years ahead at the moment. So they're not
Nicki Eyre: a quick and easy fix. For
Nicki Eyre: most people, the tribunal is not about, it's definitely not about
Nicki Eyre: the money in terms of bullying because all they do is put you
Nicki Eyre: back to the position you would have been in if you still had your job.
Nicki Eyre: So if you've left and gone into another job 2 months later, you'll
Nicki Eyre: get 2 months salary at the most. But
Nicki Eyre: It's about being heard because through all of
Nicki Eyre: that process they don't feel heard. They don't
Nicki Eyre: feel validated, they don't feel heard and they don't feel
Nicki Eyre: safe. So that's all they want. They want that
Nicki Eyre: moment to have their voice and that's so much more
Nicki Eyre: important and to put people through that just to
Nicki Eyre: be heard, not good enough. So we
Nicki Eyre: definitely need to make some changes. Yeah, when my
Joanne Lockwood: wife left, we deliberately
Joanne Lockwood: waited for the 3 months and a day and didn't say
Joanne Lockwood: anything. So we kind of left it hanging deliberately
Joanne Lockwood: to the organization had to reverse bullying, if
Joanne Lockwood: you like, making them wait to see what we were going to do. But from
Joanne Lockwood: the first day she left, she said, I've got no intention of taking this forward.
Joanne Lockwood: But our HR advisor said, well, just hang on. You've got 3 months and a
Joanne Lockwood: day to sit on it and make a decision. And we kind of decided that
Joanne Lockwood: we didn't need to do anything to do nothing. So we didn't do
Joanne Lockwood: anything to do nothing sort of things. We just sat on it and let it
Joanne Lockwood: expire.
Joanne Lockwood: And Marie, my wife, didn't actually want anything out of it
Joanne Lockwood: other than acknowledgement that she had been bullied.
Joanne Lockwood: She wanted just someone to say, I believe you and not
Joanne Lockwood: get all HR and defensive and kind
Joanne Lockwood: of all this shackles went up. Rather than sitting down and saying, you're
Joanne Lockwood: right. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it was, yeah, we could have
Joanne Lockwood: done better. We're kind of ashamed of ourselves and we've learned our
Joanne Lockwood: lesson, thank you. But you never get that, do you? You never get that.
Joanne Lockwood: It's always legal speak and I'll pay
Joanne Lockwood: you off without accepting responsibility, without prejudice,
Nicki Eyre: whatever the phrase is. And you think, I just want someone
Nicki Eyre: to say sorry. I really want someone to say
Nicki Eyre: sorry, please. That's so true. And there's a saying
Nicki Eyre: that I've come across and it's something like, The hardest thing I
Nicki Eyre: ever had to do was to accept an apology I never received.
Nicki Eyre: That was part of being able to let go of all of this and move
Nicki Eyre: on from it. But yeah, that is
Nicki Eyre: it. So many cases, they wouldn't
Nicki Eyre: go through any of these processes if they just said, do you know
Nicki Eyre: what? You're right. We shouldn't
Nicki Eyre: have treated you like that or that wasn't the best management
Nicki Eyre: and we can do better than that and we're really sorry. Can we try
Nicki Eyre: again? God, it would save so much time,
Nicki Eyre: money, effort, but yeah, they're so concerned about
Nicki Eyre: litigation and we can't possibly
Nicki Eyre: say that that was the case. And Yet,
Nicki Eyre: if it goes to tribunal, then it's in the public
Nicki Eyre: domain. You've got social media now
Nicki Eyre: and Glassdoor and places like that. It's going to be in the public
Nicki Eyre: domain no matter how quiet you want to try and keep it.
Nicki Eyre: And there are also in
Nicki Eyre: terms of investment, if they've actually looked at companies
Nicki Eyre: now and where there's been, for example, with the
Nicki Eyre: MeToo campaigns or the Black Lives Matter, where there's been examples
Nicki Eyre: in the press of actually, you've got problems in
Nicki Eyre: your company. They actually did a piece of research in the
Nicki Eyre: height of the Me Too and it said that if you'd invested in a
Nicki Eyre: certain group of companies that had
Nicki Eyre: scandalous reports or whatever, however you want to put it, you'd have lost
Nicki Eyre: 20% of your investment as opposed to
Nicki Eyre: gaining, I think it was about 47% in the other direction.
Nicki Eyre: And so, the way in which employees
Nicki Eyre: are treated by their employer is now becoming a key
Nicki Eyre: factor for investors as well. So even if you don't want to
Nicki Eyre: do it for the moral reason, there are lots and lots of reasons for
Nicki Eyre: businesses, competitive reasons to
Nicki Eyre: actually treat people really well and making sure that they treat each
Nicki Eyre: other well within that environment as well.
Joanne Lockwood: The other problem I found is that,
Joanne Lockwood: it took a movement for people to speak.
Joanne Lockwood: And I've been involved with a society
Joanne Lockwood: club in the past where we organized events and
Joanne Lockwood: things and people came along to these events. So it's kind of workplace kind
Joanne Lockwood: of in out what to, Everybody visited this club rather than
Joanne Lockwood: it being an organization's event. So it's an event
Joanne Lockwood: organized for others organized. And we had an example where
Joanne Lockwood: somebody was the subject
Joanne Lockwood: of some inappropriate sexual
Joanne Lockwood: intent. There was physical touching
Joanne Lockwood: involved and this
Joanne Lockwood: lady was spoken to and she didn't
Joanne Lockwood: realize that she had been the target of something, she just thought it
Joanne Lockwood: was something, it happened, I'm a grown woman,
Joanne Lockwood: I get used to this kind of inappropriate behavior, so men do that, yeah, right.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think it was only when someone said to her, hang on, you shouldn't
Joanne Lockwood: feel that you've got to turn up to an event such as this and then
Joanne Lockwood: be worried about what's going to happen to you. You should be able to turn
Joanne Lockwood: up like everybody else or every other man, if you like, and just think, well,
Joanne Lockwood: I have a safe space. And what happened was that we
Joanne Lockwood: also found out that other people had a very similar
Joanne Lockwood: experience with the same alleged perpetrator,
Joanne Lockwood: but nobody was prepared to be the 1.
Joanne Lockwood: And I suppose the question I'm trying to get to you about is, where we've
Joanne Lockwood: got this sequence of unsubstantiated or unfulfilled
Joanne Lockwood: complaints. What worried me at the time was
Joanne Lockwood: that what if the next person came along and I said, oh yeah, you're not
Joanne Lockwood: the first. And then they go, I'm not the first. You knew about this.
Joanne Lockwood: You've done nothing, but I can't do anything because, so how can I
Joanne Lockwood: act on unsubstantiated claims where there's no process
Joanne Lockwood: followed and yet still look someone in the eye and say, I knew, but I
Joanne Lockwood: didn't do anything? I think that's
Nicki Eyre: where we've got to differentiate
Nicki Eyre: between I know something, but I can only do
Nicki Eyre: something if there is a formal process.
Nicki Eyre: Actually, as soon as you know something, particularly as an
Nicki Eyre: employer, if something has been brought to your attention,
Nicki Eyre: then you have a duty to act on it.
Nicki Eyre: Now, you don't have to go in and be accusatory,
Nicki Eyre: but you can sit someone down and say, I've heard something that's quite worrying
Nicki Eyre: and I feel the best thing to do is to bring it to your attention.
Nicki Eyre: So, yeah, it's going to be difficult, it's going to be
Nicki Eyre: tough, but and they're probably going to deny it. Yeah, who
Joanne Lockwood: said? Tell me, give me examples. Yes, yeah, And you
Nicki Eyre: can protect that person, but actually
Nicki Eyre: that 1 conversation might be enough for them to change their behaviour.
Nicki Eyre: Even if they don't acknowledge it to
Nicki Eyre: you, they might acknowledge it to themselves and they might start
Nicki Eyre: to be more careful. I think what is
Nicki Eyre: really interesting is what we're talking about
Nicki Eyre: is this acceptance of behavior where
Nicki Eyre: people kind of brush things off and go, well, it's just what it's
Nicki Eyre: like around here or, well, I'm a grown woman, I should
Nicki Eyre: expect it. I can deal with it. But like you
Nicki Eyre: say, why should you have to? But actually,
Nicki Eyre: what we do is we've got so used to
Nicki Eyre: turning a blind eye to certain behaviours
Nicki Eyre: that it's really hard for us to challenge them now.
Nicki Eyre: That's why it took a movement because It was that
Nicki Eyre: safety in numbers, those collective voices. And
Nicki Eyre: yeah, it's really important that
Nicki Eyre: if you're feeling uncomfortable, the chances are someone else is as well.
Nicki Eyre: And so Find an ally,
Nicki Eyre: find someone that you trust to speak to, find
Nicki Eyre: someone who can help you. Stand up for others if you see
Nicki Eyre: it happening. Check in with that person, was that
Nicki Eyre: okay with you? Did you feel uncomfortable? Do you want
Nicki Eyre: me to report this for you? Do you want any support?
Nicki Eyre: Whatever it is they might want, or divert,
Nicki Eyre: distract, or basically call it out. If it's a safe
Nicki Eyre: place to do it and you can call it out, you
Nicki Eyre: can say it in such a way of, be careful there, that's
Nicki Eyre: not acceptable anymore. It
Nicki Eyre: might just be enough, but unless we start
Nicki Eyre: to be brave enough to do that,
Nicki Eyre: and it does feel, it's scary. The first time you call it out
Nicki Eyre: it's scary and the second time you call it out it's scary but
Nicki Eyre: the more you do it the more people will join you doing it as well
Nicki Eyre: and definitely safety in numbers
Nicki Eyre: but yeah the collective voice is what makes a difference.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I had a situation 6 or 7 years ago
Joanne Lockwood: where I was with a group of male friends
Joanne Lockwood: who I'd known for some time in a club
Joanne Lockwood: situation, sort of a society club sort of situation.
Joanne Lockwood: And 1 of them wasn't aware that I was
Joanne Lockwood: trans or transitioning at the time. And
Joanne Lockwood: I guess looking back on it, and I'm not allowing this
Joanne Lockwood: person permission to have done what he did, but he did that sort of scene
Joanne Lockwood: from Crocodile Dundee where he grabbed me between the legs
Joanne Lockwood: and said, yeah, it's what's down there sort of thing in a very kind
Joanne Lockwood: of bantery blokey sort of thing.
Joanne Lockwood: And there was contact, it was uncomfortable.
Joanne Lockwood: And I was left aghast at someone who sexually assaulted
Joanne Lockwood: me, really. I mean, even if I wasn't trans, it was still being
Joanne Lockwood: sexually assaulted by me. And I remember not
Joanne Lockwood: laughing it off at the time, but by being bit like you pick up a
Joanne Lockwood: cat or rabbit by the back of the neck, you become a bit kind of
Joanne Lockwood: fight, fight or freeze, I froze. And I was really in that kind of like
Joanne Lockwood: shock. And it took me 3 days, I think, to kind
Joanne Lockwood: of start to replaying it in my mind all
Joanne Lockwood: the time, replaying it, replaying it. What did I do wrong? What did I do
Joanne Lockwood: wrong? And I suddenly thought, wow, I'm doing that.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm blaming myself here. I'm trying to make excuses for
Joanne Lockwood: this person. And what I end up doing was sending them a text saying,
Joanne Lockwood: I need to talk about the impact of inappropriate sexual
Joanne Lockwood: conduct the other day. And I need to have a phone call with you.
Joanne Lockwood: And they've picked up the phone. I said, I don't need to speak or say
Joanne Lockwood: a word. I just want to tell you how I felt and how that
Joanne Lockwood: made me feel. If you want to say something after I've spoken, that's fine,
Joanne Lockwood: but I don't need you to do anything. I just want to tell you how
Joanne Lockwood: I felt. I did it, and at the end, they just said, I'm sorry, and
Joanne Lockwood: we both hung up. And that gave me my power back. Cause I
Joanne Lockwood: didn't need to ruin that person's
Joanne Lockwood: life over this incident. I could put it in context as
Joanne Lockwood: banter, as a bit of a laugh. But what I
Joanne Lockwood: wanted to do is make sure they realized that the laugh went
Joanne Lockwood: too far, and I didn't need to take it any further.
Joanne Lockwood: But that takes a certain kind of strength and resilience in your
Joanne Lockwood: character, and I know that not every target
Joanne Lockwood: of inappropriate verbal
Joanne Lockwood: behavior or whatever it may be is able to say no and
Joanne Lockwood: re-own it or that person wouldn't maybe even responded in another way
Joanne Lockwood: and dismissed or not listened. Yeah and of course
Nicki Eyre: the other thing you've got there is you've got bystanders who
Nicki Eyre: stood there and let it happen. Actually, as a bystander,
Nicki Eyre: you can intervene. You can say something or you can
Nicki Eyre: distract or you can, did any of them say to you, are you
Nicki Eyre: okay? That was a bit off or anything. Did anybody
Nicki Eyre: come to you? It doesn't take much, does it? I think they laughed
Joanne Lockwood: because it was that kind of environment. So, yeah, I didn't get a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: support, but I did talk to 1 of the other people who was in the
Joanne Lockwood: group at that time and told them how I was feeling and
Joanne Lockwood: then told them what I planned on doing in terms of this owning,
Joanne Lockwood: taking control back. And we didn't speak about it after that,
Joanne Lockwood: but they knew that I'd had that conversation as well. So it made
Joanne Lockwood: me feel better that, in my case, I had witnesses,
Joanne Lockwood: 3 or 4 witnesses, although they didn't defend me at the time,
Joanne Lockwood: they laughed at the time.
Joanne Lockwood: Having had my own examples, my wife's been through examples, I really, really
Joanne Lockwood: understand the complexity of this and the challenge of
Joanne Lockwood: actually standing up and saying something. It is.
Nicki Eyre: It's incredibly hard. And I
Nicki Eyre: think for me, I tried to stand up, I tried to
Nicki Eyre: fight to make sure this didn't happen to
Nicki Eyre: anyone else again. I felt responsible for all of the people that
Nicki Eyre: I was responsible for in an organization, which I'm talking about
Nicki Eyre: 500. I'm not just talking about my team.
Nicki Eyre: I just sort of went, I can't possibly let this happen
Nicki Eyre: to any of them. And so I fought and fought and fought. And I
Nicki Eyre: was so sure that obviously they're going to see this
Nicki Eyre: is bullying. And, you know, you come away
Nicki Eyre: from things like that with so much anger and
Nicki Eyre: hatred and injustice and all of
Nicki Eyre: those really negative emotions. And I've had to work
Nicki Eyre: really, really hard to turn that around. But 1 of the things I've
Nicki Eyre: really learned is that you can't change things from a
Nicki Eyre: place of anger, you can never do that.
Nicki Eyre: So I ended up in a position where I've absolutely surrounded
Nicki Eyre: myself by amazing people.
Nicki Eyre: They're helping me now with the Stop Hurt at Work campaign,
Nicki Eyre: where we're trying to get workplace bullying recognised in law,
Nicki Eyre: so that you have the same level of protection in the workplace.
Nicki Eyre: There's still huge numbers of people who aren't protected,
Nicki Eyre: freelancers. If you look at something like the film and TV
Nicki Eyre: industry where they go on different jobs all the time.
Nicki Eyre: So there's lots and lots and lots of
Nicki Eyre: work to be done, but You know what, there are some
Nicki Eyre: amazing people out there doing this work. There are some
Nicki Eyre: amazing people out there making a difference in their own organizations,
Nicki Eyre: and they're starting to have more and more of these conversations,
Nicki Eyre: which is all just absolutely fantastic.
Nicki Eyre: And, you know, you mentioned earlier, Joanne, that you were in the conference last
Nicki Eyre: year. So we run the United Against Workplace Bullying
Nicki Eyre: Conference in November, an anti-bullying week each year.
Nicki Eyre: And that is really helping to get the
Nicki Eyre: subject out there and just bringing
Nicki Eyre: everybody together to say it's okay to talk about this,
Nicki Eyre: it's okay and you are not alone, you're not the only 1 this has
Nicki Eyre: happened to and there is help and we
Nicki Eyre: are trying to make a difference. I'm trying to build those collective
Nicki Eyre: voices to really push that through in legislation as
Nicki Eyre: well. What you said there about not speaking
Joanne Lockwood: from anger, speaking to educate and there's a saying that,
Joanne Lockwood: as a professional speaker, there's a saying that we often use, speak from the scar
Joanne Lockwood: not from the wound. So if you're speaking from the wound, it's all about me,
Joanne Lockwood: it's my own trauma, it's my own thing. But once you have the scar,
Joanne Lockwood: you can step back and you can then think about it's about
Joanne Lockwood: everybody else, the bigger problem, the challenge, without always bringing it back
Joanne Lockwood: to you and reliving that trauma because of the mental health PTSD. So I
Joanne Lockwood: completely understand, yeah, you've got to heal yourself first
Joanne Lockwood: and not sorry, forget the anger, but don't let you not
Joanne Lockwood: become driven by anger, become driven by outcomes, by the change
Joanne Lockwood: you want to see, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. And the way
Nicki Eyre: that I put that is that most of the people are angry because their
Nicki Eyre: values have been compromised in some way. And so
Nicki Eyre: I say to them, just remember, you're driven by your values, not by your
Nicki Eyre: anger. And that's so important to
Nicki Eyre: remember. I like that. That's a great note
Joanne Lockwood: to start running out. Driven by your values, not your anger. I
Joanne Lockwood: think that's a fantastic punchline to end on. Thank you. We've
Joanne Lockwood: been chatting over an hour now, and before we got
Joanne Lockwood: on to record, it's been fascinating talking to you again. I know we talked a
Joanne Lockwood: lot during your Conduct Against Workplace Bullying conference last
Joanne Lockwood: year. How do people get hold of you? How do people get involved in the
Joanne Lockwood: conference? Do they listen to this? How can they get hold of you? So the
Nicki Eyre: best place to go is the website, which is conductchange.co.uk.
Nicki Eyre: And On the website, if you check on the
Nicki Eyre: menus there, you'll see the UAWB conference,
Nicki Eyre: United Against Workplace Bullying. There's also
Nicki Eyre: the Stop Hurt at Work campaign. So again, it's on the
Nicki Eyre: main menu. Have a look in there, have a look at the work we're doing
Nicki Eyre: on legislation as well. And we're
Nicki Eyre: also, if you want to share your story and help add to the
Nicki Eyre: data collection, then Speak Out Revolution are
Nicki Eyre: our data partners for the campaign and you can
Nicki Eyre: add your voice to their
Nicki Eyre: data as well and you can do that anonymously. So there's lots and
Nicki Eyre: lots of different ways that people can get involved and help influence
Nicki Eyre: change. Fantastic and if you go
Joanne Lockwood: there you may even see my video from the conference last year when it gets
Joanne Lockwood: published soon. So yeah. We will indeed, yes. Go and check that
Joanne Lockwood: out. Excellent. Thank you. Nicki, that's amazing
Joanne Lockwood: as ever. Thank you so much. Also a huge thank
Joanne Lockwood: you to you, the listener, for tuning in, for getting to the end. I
Joanne Lockwood: really, really appreciate and value that. If you're not already subscribed, then
Joanne Lockwood: please do tick the box and subscribe in your favorite
Joanne Lockwood: platform for future episodes of the Inclusion Bites
Joanne Lockwood: podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Do share it with your friends,
Joanne Lockwood: tell your colleagues about it as well. I've got more and more exciting guests
Joanne Lockwood: lined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks
Joanne Lockwood: and months. And of course, if you'd love to be a guest, I'd love to
Joanne Lockwood: have you on. Send welcome, welcome, suggestion and feedback to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And
Joanne Lockwood: finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to
Joanne Lockwood: host this podcast for
Joanne Lockwood: you