WEBVTT 00:00:00.570 --> 00:00:04.394 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion 00:00:04.442 --> 00:00:08.174 Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of 00:00:08.212 --> 00:00:11.934 amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of 00:00:11.972 --> 00:00:15.646 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a 00:00:15.668 --> 00:00:19.278 better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the 00:00:19.284 --> 00:00:21.886 future, then please do drop me a line to 00:00:21.908 --> 00:00:25.382 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, 00:00:25.436 --> 00:00:29.030 that's S-E-E Change Happen dot 00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:32.754 co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous 00:00:32.802 --> 00:00:36.630 shows on itunes, Spotify and the usual places 00:00:37.130 --> 00:00:40.630 to plug in your headphones, grab a decaf 00:00:40.790 --> 00:00:44.554 and let's get going. Today is 00:00:44.592 --> 00:00:47.574 episode 83 with the title 00:00:47.702 --> 00:00:51.334 uplifting queer Genius. And I have the 00:00:51.392 --> 00:00:54.554 absolute honour and privilege to welcome Dr Joel Davis 00:00:54.602 --> 00:00:58.302 Brown. Joel describes himself as a change agent 00:00:58.436 --> 00:01:02.154 that has too much stuff going on. When I asked Joel 00:01:02.202 --> 00:01:05.994 to describe his superpower, he said queer minded creative 00:01:06.042 --> 00:01:09.806 problem solving. Hi, Joel, welcome to the 00:01:09.828 --> 00:01:13.438 show. Good morning. Or I should say, good afternoon. 00:01:13.534 --> 00:01:15.940 It's a pleasure to be here. Nice to meet you. 00:01:16.950 --> 00:01:20.614 Absolutely. Joel, we've just had an amazing warm up in the green 00:01:20.652 --> 00:01:24.486 room, so I'm looking forward to this conversation no end. And we came 00:01:24.508 --> 00:01:28.234 up the title uplifting. Queer Genius. So what's all that 00:01:28.272 --> 00:01:32.042 about, from your perspective? I 00:01:32.096 --> 00:01:35.658 think, well, we're at a time in 00:01:35.824 --> 00:01:38.540 global history where 00:01:39.810 --> 00:01:42.922 queer people are being denounced 00:01:43.066 --> 00:01:46.526 and how should I say 00:01:46.548 --> 00:01:50.062 it? Discriminated against, 00:01:50.116 --> 00:01:53.658 criticised, misunderstood, on, in new 00:01:53.684 --> 00:01:57.460 and not so new ways. And 00:01:58.070 --> 00:02:01.826 what is ironic is that a number of the skills that the world needs in 00:02:01.848 --> 00:02:05.666 order to create a world that works more perfectly for all 00:02:05.688 --> 00:02:09.254 of us, a lot of the things 00:02:09.292 --> 00:02:12.614 that the queer community embodies are those very 00:02:12.652 --> 00:02:16.406 skills. And so this is an opportunity for us, as a community 00:02:16.508 --> 00:02:20.230 and as a world, to start to fully recognise, 00:02:20.310 --> 00:02:24.138 appreciate and understand what queer people bring to the world from 00:02:24.144 --> 00:02:27.930 a leadership standpoint, from a transformational standpoint, from a spiritual standpoint 00:02:28.670 --> 00:02:31.902 and from a global standpoint, in order 00:02:31.956 --> 00:02:35.646 to take advantage of our talents, to 00:02:35.668 --> 00:02:39.342 honour our gifts. And hopefully, I would hope, as a byproduct, to make more 00:02:39.396 --> 00:02:43.138 space for us in the world, given 00:02:43.224 --> 00:02:46.754 the beauty that we possess and the things that we 00:02:46.952 --> 00:02:50.658 naturally use and utilise just by virtue of 00:02:50.664 --> 00:02:54.322 being queer. So there's a lot there 00:02:54.376 --> 00:02:56.760 that we naturally, I think, 00:02:58.010 --> 00:03:01.558 bring to this space, bring to the world, bring to a lot of different 00:03:01.644 --> 00:03:04.680 dimensions and regions and parts of 00:03:05.530 --> 00:03:09.274 the planet. And I think it's about time for us 00:03:09.312 --> 00:03:12.682 to spend some time really examining what those 00:03:12.736 --> 00:03:16.378 are and really giving breadth to how queer people actually 00:03:16.464 --> 00:03:20.234 benefit the world, as opposed to this persistent narrative, which 00:03:20.272 --> 00:03:23.934 is one where people see us as a threat. So that's what the whole 00:03:23.972 --> 00:03:26.880 idea of Uplifting Queer Genius is about, is giving 00:03:28.370 --> 00:03:32.046 change the narrative and starting to view 00:03:32.068 --> 00:03:35.250 queer people in a more full bodied way than we have previously. 00:03:37.110 --> 00:03:40.100 That's quite interesting. The way you say that, because 00:03:41.670 --> 00:03:44.974 I would call myself describe myself as queer. I'm a trans 00:03:45.032 --> 00:03:48.440 woman. And what you're saying there about 00:03:48.890 --> 00:03:52.630 this queerness as a superpower within us that the world 00:03:52.700 --> 00:03:56.280 needs more of to balance out some of the 00:03:56.970 --> 00:04:00.794 things that are going on, I'd never really thought it in that terms. I 00:04:00.832 --> 00:04:04.666 transitioned seven or eight years ago effectively, and I 00:04:04.688 --> 00:04:08.474 felt an immense sense of freedom, an immense sense of enlightenment and 00:04:08.512 --> 00:04:12.310 empowerment within myself as a result of that. I put a lot 00:04:12.320 --> 00:04:16.078 of that down to my gender identity. But maybe there's a 00:04:16.084 --> 00:04:19.600 whole different dimension in there that you're talking about here, around 00:04:20.290 --> 00:04:23.774 the extra dimension of queerness. Not just around gender, it's around sexuality 00:04:23.822 --> 00:04:27.442 and the multifaceted nature of queerness that 00:04:27.496 --> 00:04:31.106 brings out that real richness of difference of 00:04:31.128 --> 00:04:34.514 experience that maybe straight people, CIS people 00:04:34.552 --> 00:04:38.118 have that, as you say, 00:04:38.204 --> 00:04:41.586 they see us as a threat. Because we're prepared to challenge the status 00:04:41.618 --> 00:04:45.238 quo, break out societal norms, not be living to 00:04:45.404 --> 00:04:49.218 the constructs of social society that they've defined 00:04:49.234 --> 00:04:53.066 over the years. Is that what you're saying there? Is that the 00:04:53.088 --> 00:04:56.506 influence of what you're saying? Is this empowerment we have that 00:04:56.528 --> 00:04:57.100 maybe 00:05:00.190 --> 00:05:03.326 we bring to the world, or is it more than that? I think it's more 00:05:03.348 --> 00:05:07.022 than that. I think it starts with empowerment. What you described is a beautiful 00:05:07.076 --> 00:05:10.240 process of self discovery and self realisation, of 00:05:11.410 --> 00:05:15.154 going within to learn more about yourself so that you can be your 00:05:15.192 --> 00:05:18.866 full and best self. Even that in and of 00:05:18.888 --> 00:05:22.130 itself requires courage and 00:05:22.200 --> 00:05:25.842 commitment and a certain level of energy that a lot of people 00:05:25.976 --> 00:05:28.726 choose not to possess. I'm not going to say people don't have the capacity, but 00:05:28.748 --> 00:05:32.182 people choose not to possess. And what you have 00:05:32.236 --> 00:05:35.830 experienced is what a lot of queer people, a lot of trans 00:05:35.900 --> 00:05:36.920 people, a lot of 00:05:39.050 --> 00:05:42.890 LGBTQ plus people have experienced, because we have to 00:05:42.960 --> 00:05:46.394 in order for us to be fully who we are, we have to excavate our 00:05:46.432 --> 00:05:49.958 truths. We have to understand our realities and our 00:05:49.984 --> 00:05:53.440 worldview. We have to give voice to 00:05:54.050 --> 00:05:57.662 our full identities and our aspirations. And in 00:05:57.716 --> 00:06:00.830 doing so, we help to create freedom for ourselves. 00:06:02.290 --> 00:06:05.858 Just modelling that process, I think, is something that could be a benefit to a 00:06:05.864 --> 00:06:09.646 number of people and to a number of global citizens. 00:06:09.678 --> 00:06:13.506 Because how many of us actually take the time and actually create the 00:06:13.528 --> 00:06:17.058 space to be fully free? And I'm not speaking just in terms of 00:06:17.224 --> 00:06:20.774 historical systems of oppression. I mean to give ourselves permission to be 00:06:20.812 --> 00:06:24.326 free. Regardless of whether someone says, I deem you worthy of 00:06:24.348 --> 00:06:27.480 freedom, I deem you worthy of love, I deem you worthy of 00:06:30.190 --> 00:06:33.834 being happy or being fully expressed as a human 00:06:33.872 --> 00:06:37.210 being, we give ourselves permission. And I think that by itself 00:06:37.280 --> 00:06:41.034 is a needed revolution in the world where people stop 00:06:41.072 --> 00:06:44.702 looking to others and followers on social 00:06:44.756 --> 00:06:47.950 media and other people to give them permission to be themselves. And to be their 00:06:48.020 --> 00:06:51.694 brightest light. We do that for ourselves. That is a very important 00:06:51.812 --> 00:06:55.374 and understated aspect of leadership to say, I 00:06:55.412 --> 00:06:58.802 embrace who I am, I appreciate my talents, I know that I can 00:06:58.856 --> 00:07:02.658 influence my environment just by being who I am. But 00:07:02.664 --> 00:07:06.334 before I can influence my environment, I have to first be clear and to lead 00:07:06.392 --> 00:07:10.066 myself. That's the first step of leadership. And queer 00:07:10.098 --> 00:07:13.334 people do that every single day that we decide and we come out 00:07:13.372 --> 00:07:16.950 consciously assert, this is who I am. 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:20.780 And I think the world could use that. And beyond that, there are, 00:07:21.150 --> 00:07:24.506 I wouldn't call them unique traits, but there are aspects of 00:07:24.528 --> 00:07:28.250 our culture that I think really need 00:07:28.320 --> 00:07:32.138 greater visibility in the world. There are aspects 00:07:32.154 --> 00:07:35.294 of who we are that need greater practise or 00:07:35.332 --> 00:07:39.070 elevation. And a lot of that, 00:07:39.140 --> 00:07:42.814 I think, has never been fully explored because for a number of people, 00:07:42.852 --> 00:07:46.660 when they think about queer people, they reduced us to a stereotype, to 00:07:47.030 --> 00:07:50.834 a caricature, or they have just come to the conclusion that this 00:07:50.872 --> 00:07:54.514 community is not worthy of study. So therefore, the idea that there's something of 00:07:54.552 --> 00:07:58.246 value that we bring would seem absurd to them, even to some members of our 00:07:58.268 --> 00:08:01.960 own community. And I think now is the time, through 00:08:02.490 --> 00:08:06.102 my own journey and my own research, that I realise we actually 00:08:06.156 --> 00:08:09.894 bring a lot. And what we bring is essentially what a 00:08:09.932 --> 00:08:13.510 lumber of people are asking for. And that is our cultural genius. 00:08:13.590 --> 00:08:16.922 That is the acumen that we have 00:08:17.056 --> 00:08:20.654 naturally, by virtue of being queer people. That serves us in 00:08:20.692 --> 00:08:23.722 an ever changing, ever evolving 00:08:23.786 --> 00:08:27.534 society. And I think more people 00:08:27.572 --> 00:08:31.102 could benefit from it if they simply took the chance to see us 00:08:31.236 --> 00:08:34.946 in our full light. Do you think this 00:08:34.968 --> 00:08:38.290 is rooted in introspection? 00:08:38.950 --> 00:08:42.594 Before I came out to myself, 00:08:42.792 --> 00:08:45.526 we all have to come out to ourselves first. We're the first people we come 00:08:45.548 --> 00:08:49.062 out to. And that whole exercise is around self 00:08:49.196 --> 00:08:52.534 analysis, self questioning, introspection, who am 00:08:52.572 --> 00:08:56.406 I? What's important to me? Until I went through that 00:08:56.428 --> 00:09:00.054 process, I probably never considered those questions to 00:09:00.092 --> 00:09:03.882 myself in the rest of my life. So it's some of our power, 00:09:03.936 --> 00:09:07.626 the fact that we are self analysing, we are questioning who we are, we 00:09:07.648 --> 00:09:11.242 are working out our position in society and that's where our 00:09:11.296 --> 00:09:15.018 camaraderie within the queer community comes from. Maybe because we've 00:09:15.034 --> 00:09:18.654 all been through that place of discovery, I think, as you 00:09:18.772 --> 00:09:21.902 put it, we have to come out all the time, so we're constantly making 00:09:21.956 --> 00:09:25.506 choices about who we come out to, how we come 00:09:25.528 --> 00:09:28.740 out, our safety, the benefit to us, 00:09:29.350 --> 00:09:32.898 all that impact. So those decisions are going on in our head every time we 00:09:32.904 --> 00:09:36.354 step out the front door. As a straight 00:09:36.402 --> 00:09:39.894 person, a non queer person, you probably don't even 00:09:40.012 --> 00:09:43.430 realise that you have to have those thoughts. 00:09:44.170 --> 00:09:47.734 No, you probably don't. Or you take them for granted, or you don't use them 00:09:47.772 --> 00:09:51.430 as often as you could. And like anything, any talent, any muscle, 00:09:51.510 --> 00:09:54.138 the less you use it, the weaker it becomes, to the point of where it 00:09:54.144 --> 00:09:57.820 almost seems like it's nonexistent. What we 00:09:58.510 --> 00:10:02.054 give our attention to, what we prize in a society or in a particular 00:10:02.112 --> 00:10:05.950 cultural group, is a value. So if we say, for example, 00:10:06.020 --> 00:10:09.806 that we prize or we value creativity, then that is a value. If 00:10:09.828 --> 00:10:13.634 we say that we value inclusion, that is 00:10:13.672 --> 00:10:17.346 a value. If we say that we value money, that also is a value. And 00:10:17.368 --> 00:10:20.882 depending on the particular group we all have, every 00:10:21.016 --> 00:10:24.866 group within the world has a 00:10:24.888 --> 00:10:28.306 sense or a core set of values. And we typically think about values from a 00:10:28.328 --> 00:10:32.038 very nationalistic standpoint. So you'll hear people, for example, say, in the 00:10:32.044 --> 00:10:35.366 UK or in places like or any country, it could be Kenya, it could be 00:10:35.388 --> 00:10:39.218 Singapore, it could be Japan, it could be Chile, it could be 00:10:39.244 --> 00:10:43.082 the US. Well, what do you all stand for? And there are 00:10:43.136 --> 00:10:46.762 certain principles that countries, nations, people 00:10:46.816 --> 00:10:50.426 organise around to say people of like, mind are here. Or if you are part 00:10:50.448 --> 00:10:53.694 of this group, this is what you subscribe to, this is what you believe in. 00:10:53.812 --> 00:10:57.294 That doesn't mean that people don't have individual differences and that doesn't mean that people 00:10:57.332 --> 00:11:00.954 don't have serving values that perhaps they lean 00:11:01.002 --> 00:11:04.786 into more than others. But what I would say is that 00:11:04.808 --> 00:11:08.020 with the queer community, there are values that we support. 00:11:08.470 --> 00:11:11.620 That, for example, the idea of 00:11:12.150 --> 00:11:14.980 interconnectedness that are really important 00:11:15.510 --> 00:11:19.154 and who doesn't need more interconnectedness 00:11:19.202 --> 00:11:22.946 now, particularly after the COVID-19 pandemic? And given the fact that we've 00:11:22.978 --> 00:11:26.470 see loneliness become a bigger issue in the social 00:11:26.540 --> 00:11:30.010 sphere. Even before COVID-19 even came on 00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:33.830 the global scene, there were a number of countries, denmark, 00:11:33.910 --> 00:11:37.530 Japan, New Zealand, the UK, 00:11:37.870 --> 00:11:41.590 the US, that were focusing on loneliness 00:11:41.670 --> 00:11:45.326 because they said, and they realised that there were pockets of the population that were 00:11:45.348 --> 00:11:47.760 feeling more estranged, more 00:11:48.610 --> 00:11:52.446 disconnected. And here we are as a community, has spent a lot of 00:11:52.468 --> 00:11:56.238 time out of necessity, to build community, to build connection, that doesn't 00:11:56.254 --> 00:12:00.066 mean we're perfect. So if our community has been able 00:12:00.088 --> 00:12:03.854 to do these things at the risk 00:12:03.902 --> 00:12:07.140 of being harassed, discriminated against, 00:12:07.670 --> 00:12:11.334 even killed or hurt, and we've never been able to do them, 00:12:11.372 --> 00:12:15.094 well, I would think most people in the world if I were 00:12:15.132 --> 00:12:18.594 studying a group I heard about this group that, despite the odds and despite 00:12:18.642 --> 00:12:21.954 very few resources, was able to do these miraculous 00:12:22.002 --> 00:12:25.754 and powerful things in the world. I'd want to learn what they were doing, 00:12:25.792 --> 00:12:27.802 I don't want to learn how they were doing it. I didn't want to study 00:12:27.856 --> 00:12:31.514 what their model is. And that's where I think we have an ability and 00:12:31.552 --> 00:12:35.038 opportunity to teach. Because we as a society, we as a 00:12:35.044 --> 00:12:38.686 group have been able to do things in our society that others 00:12:38.788 --> 00:12:42.474 probably wouldn't be able to do. Given the level of deprivation that we've 00:12:42.522 --> 00:12:46.042 suffered from a legal, political and social standpoint that's, 00:12:46.106 --> 00:12:49.826 again, part of our cultural genius. How do we do that? How do we 00:12:49.848 --> 00:12:53.698 maintain that? How do we keep that flame lit? Those are 00:12:53.704 --> 00:12:57.414 the things that we don't talk about enough. So there is the aspect of 00:12:57.452 --> 00:13:01.186 being out and proud and engaging 00:13:01.218 --> 00:13:05.042 in self realisation and being self determinative. There's also that aspect 00:13:05.106 --> 00:13:08.810 of, wow, look at this community that here. 00:13:08.880 --> 00:13:12.634 There are 71 countries that have 00:13:12.672 --> 00:13:15.994 passed anti or have open 00:13:16.112 --> 00:13:19.578 discrimination or discriminatory laws against LGBTQ people. 00:13:19.744 --> 00:13:23.550 There are, I think, at this point, 37 countries that explicitly 00:13:24.610 --> 00:13:28.106 have laws that are hostile to gender nonconforming 00:13:28.138 --> 00:13:31.886 populations. And yet we still are able to 00:13:31.908 --> 00:13:35.586 do some pretty remarkable things, not the least of which 00:13:35.608 --> 00:13:38.980 is exist. So 00:13:39.830 --> 00:13:43.554 that is part of our superpower and we're so used to 00:13:43.592 --> 00:13:46.850 doing it that we don't think it has great 00:13:46.920 --> 00:13:49.926 consequence, when in fact it does. The fact that you and I are having this 00:13:49.948 --> 00:13:53.014 conversation, the fact that you created this platform and this 00:13:53.052 --> 00:13:56.118 podcast, there's something powerful in that 00:13:56.284 --> 00:14:00.118 and I think a lot of people could learn from that because a lot of 00:14:00.124 --> 00:14:03.926 people are looking for inspiration, they're looking for hope, and I think 00:14:03.948 --> 00:14:05.240 we can offer that. 00:14:08.250 --> 00:14:11.160 So, as a community, yeah, I get what you're saying. 00:14:11.730 --> 00:14:15.354 Our long standing 00:14:15.402 --> 00:14:18.894 fight against marginalisation oppression. So you are a black 00:14:18.932 --> 00:14:22.590 man. How does the intersection of racism and queerness 00:14:22.930 --> 00:14:23.680 differ? 00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:30.302 As a marginalised black person, you must have experienced discrimination 00:14:30.366 --> 00:14:34.082 from a different vector. Is being 00:14:34.136 --> 00:14:37.954 black a similar empowerment to queerness 00:14:38.002 --> 00:14:41.826 or it's a different experience that you can't 00:14:41.858 --> 00:14:45.526 compare the two? I'm just really curious as to where that 00:14:45.548 --> 00:14:49.250 intersection kicks in. And is there a commonality 00:14:49.330 --> 00:14:53.162 between the oppressed community and the spirit and the problem 00:14:53.216 --> 00:14:56.250 solving within it, or is it something unique to queerness? 00:14:57.950 --> 00:15:01.754 I would say there are some similarities. However, the way that queer people have 00:15:01.792 --> 00:15:05.582 been able to create it or fashion it or 00:15:05.636 --> 00:15:09.246 to design it is different. The same way that for a black person or for 00:15:09.268 --> 00:15:13.006 black people, it's different. And I think, like any 00:15:13.108 --> 00:15:16.786 superhuman beings, our tools and our superpowers are just 00:15:16.808 --> 00:15:20.354 slightly different. So you may see one superhero that they're able 00:15:20.392 --> 00:15:24.242 to shoot a beam through concrete or through 00:15:24.296 --> 00:15:28.094 some precious mineral, whereas another superhero 00:15:28.142 --> 00:15:31.766 might be able to or super person excuse me, might be able to fly and 00:15:31.788 --> 00:15:35.430 another one might be able to speak with animals or whatnot. 00:15:36.170 --> 00:15:39.826 I think we possess unique, indifferent talents 00:15:39.938 --> 00:15:42.854 and that doesn't mean that our talents are exclusive and it doesn't mean that other 00:15:42.892 --> 00:15:46.682 groups and communities don't have them. One of the things I like to remind people 00:15:46.736 --> 00:15:50.186 is that people of colour, or I know in the UK, I think 00:15:50.208 --> 00:15:53.914 it's black, Asian, minority, ethnicities also are 00:15:53.952 --> 00:15:57.582 part of the community, so it's one and the same, right? So there's not always 00:15:57.636 --> 00:16:01.326 this distinct difference between the groups. You have 00:16:01.348 --> 00:16:05.186 people of colour who are queer in the community and those superpowers have been 00:16:05.208 --> 00:16:08.862 embellished, expanded upon or enhanced 00:16:08.926 --> 00:16:12.660 by their experiences in different areas. So I think 00:16:13.110 --> 00:16:16.434 there are different experiences. They're not 00:16:16.472 --> 00:16:20.182 as different as we make them out to be. It's like having 00:16:20.236 --> 00:16:23.622 a cousin. So you have a cousin, know 00:16:23.756 --> 00:16:27.606 you're connected, you have something in common that 00:16:27.628 --> 00:16:31.382 would be the human experience, but their life is completely 00:16:31.436 --> 00:16:34.826 different than yours. Let's say they're living in Manchester as opposed to living in 00:16:34.848 --> 00:16:38.358 Portsmouth, and that's how I think it is. When we look at diversity 00:16:38.454 --> 00:16:42.234 overall, is that, yes, a number of us, all of us have different 00:16:42.272 --> 00:16:46.042 identities and, yes, they can be distinct, but we all come from the same mosaic. 00:16:46.186 --> 00:16:49.914 And the emotions and the realities 00:16:50.042 --> 00:16:53.086 are not all that different. They just show up a little bit differently and that 00:16:53.108 --> 00:16:56.926 allows us to maintain our individuality or our unique experiences, but also to 00:16:56.948 --> 00:17:00.514 recognise that in the whole, there are a lot of things that we 00:17:00.552 --> 00:17:03.954 encounter that are not all that rare and that are not all that 00:17:03.992 --> 00:17:07.438 different. You can't talk about white supremacy without talking about 00:17:07.464 --> 00:17:11.254 heterosexism and you can't talk about patriarchy without talking about 00:17:11.292 --> 00:17:14.950 cisgenderism. They're all connected, right? 00:17:15.100 --> 00:17:18.760 And just the way that these things play out is just a little bit different. 00:17:19.290 --> 00:17:22.970 So that's how I think of it. I would say to you there are definitely 00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:26.060 times where I have to use my black 00:17:27.150 --> 00:17:30.694 superhuman powers and there are times when I use my queer 00:17:30.742 --> 00:17:34.122 superhuman powers. I think at least with black 00:17:34.176 --> 00:17:37.482 people, there has been at least some recognition, 00:17:37.626 --> 00:17:41.422 albeit slight, that the way that we think and 00:17:41.476 --> 00:17:44.740 the way that we are relational and the way that we are community minded is 00:17:46.070 --> 00:17:49.790 an asset. And I still think that we're at the very beginning 00:17:49.870 --> 00:17:52.770 of looking at queer people from an asset based 00:17:52.840 --> 00:17:56.594 perspective, even for those of us who are 00:17:56.632 --> 00:17:59.654 allies. I've heard things like where you like to 00:17:59.692 --> 00:18:03.320 party, you're lively and I say, well, 00:18:04.330 --> 00:18:07.986 perhaps there are some of us who like to party, but what is the deeper 00:18:08.018 --> 00:18:11.706 value that speaks to that? So that requires us to go deeper. And what that 00:18:11.728 --> 00:18:15.126 requires is for even our allies and even ourselves 00:18:15.318 --> 00:18:19.046 to go beyond the idea and the belief 00:18:19.078 --> 00:18:22.346 that they know who we are to actually say, well, do you actually know what 00:18:22.368 --> 00:18:25.642 it's like to be us and what we actually stand for? Because what you see 00:18:25.776 --> 00:18:28.686 when you say that we like to party or we like to be lively is 00:18:28.708 --> 00:18:32.542 what's sticking above the waterline. It's the iceberg that sticks out. 00:18:32.676 --> 00:18:36.526 But have you taken time to really be clear as to what more we 00:18:36.548 --> 00:18:40.114 bring to table, where that comes from? So if I'm I remember a guy on 00:18:40.152 --> 00:18:43.714 a plane said to me I was going to some 00:18:43.832 --> 00:18:47.486 queer event conference and he said, oh, there's going to be a lot of parties. 00:18:47.518 --> 00:18:51.366 And he thought he was being endearing to me when he said that and I 00:18:51.388 --> 00:18:54.806 said, Well, I don't know about going there to party. I said, I do 00:18:54.828 --> 00:18:58.182 appreciate that people do want to celebrate and that comes 00:18:58.236 --> 00:19:02.054 from an idea of wanting to be closer and to connect with people, but also 00:19:02.092 --> 00:19:05.926 wanting to honour who one is. And if you frame 00:19:05.958 --> 00:19:09.178 it that way, then I think a lot of people can understand it from a 00:19:09.184 --> 00:19:12.762 deeper level and have more appreciation for how important it is for 00:19:12.896 --> 00:19:16.720 all a billion of us human beings to honour and celebrate who we are, 00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:21.006 as opposed to just thinking that we want to go party. So 00:19:21.108 --> 00:19:24.862 that's where I think for the queer community, I would love to see 00:19:24.916 --> 00:19:28.754 more exploration and more research and more 00:19:28.872 --> 00:19:32.706 humility to say maybe we don't understand well, we know that we don't 00:19:32.728 --> 00:19:36.434 understand this group and maybe we can do more. And I think the black 00:19:36.472 --> 00:19:40.198 community has that as well. And I would say that there are a 00:19:40.204 --> 00:19:43.990 lot of parallel synergies and energies between the two groups and there are obviously 00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:47.586 some distinct ones. And I just think that right now, the queer 00:19:47.618 --> 00:19:50.746 community, I think a lot of 00:19:50.768 --> 00:19:54.460 minoritized communities, but I think the queer community needs 00:19:55.630 --> 00:19:58.938 we need to take the reins of our narrative and stop 00:19:59.024 --> 00:20:02.414 allowing other people to define us in ways that 00:20:02.452 --> 00:20:06.046 are completely disrespectful to our 00:20:06.068 --> 00:20:08.080 cultural legacy and to who we are. 00:20:10.690 --> 00:20:14.240 How much do you think the media plays in this? Because. 00:20:16.550 --> 00:20:20.306 Going back a few years, ten years, 20 years, the 00:20:20.328 --> 00:20:24.034 media used to trope and stereotype queer people 00:20:24.072 --> 00:20:27.686 in a certain way, as you say, the camperness, the 00:20:27.708 --> 00:20:31.526 flamboyance, the party, the 00:20:31.548 --> 00:20:34.822 elements of queerness we can all see represented in the media. But 00:20:34.876 --> 00:20:38.422 lately I've noticed a real shift where people 00:20:38.476 --> 00:20:42.246 aren't centering someone's queerness in the storyline, they're by the 00:20:42.268 --> 00:20:45.946 way, they're queer. There'll be a kiss later on, there'll be a handhold, there'll be 00:20:45.968 --> 00:20:48.426 a look, and you can go, oh, they're going to kiss in a minute. And 00:20:48.448 --> 00:20:51.926 it's quite an emotional thing from a queer 00:20:51.958 --> 00:20:55.806 perspective to see that queer representation without it being the whole 00:20:55.828 --> 00:20:59.390 point of the movie or the whole point of the episode, and 00:20:59.540 --> 00:21:02.606 it becomes a voyage of discovery in the same way that 00:21:02.628 --> 00:21:06.274 heterosexuality is just a by the way thing. And I think 00:21:06.312 --> 00:21:09.586 that I see a shift in the media, but before that it was all 00:21:09.688 --> 00:21:10.930 stereotypical 00:21:13.270 --> 00:21:16.758 leading to the you don't seem gay, you don't sound gay to me. Those kind 00:21:16.764 --> 00:21:20.470 of microaggressions and tropes that come out. Are we seeing a shift in the media 00:21:20.540 --> 00:21:23.880 now? Yes and no. 00:21:26.810 --> 00:21:29.606 I think the media at the and I think we all know this, the media 00:21:29.628 --> 00:21:32.700 at the end of the day is entertainment business and so it's trying to 00:21:34.510 --> 00:21:38.118 put out whatever is most expedient and what's going to get most people's attention. 00:21:38.214 --> 00:21:41.886 I do think what's changed is that there are more queer people in the 00:21:41.908 --> 00:21:45.280 media and there are more allies in the media and 00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:49.614 people recognise our humanity. So that the difference. The 00:21:49.652 --> 00:21:53.374 perceived weirdness of us is not as much 00:21:53.412 --> 00:21:56.580 of a storyline because we're human but at the same time 00:21:57.270 --> 00:22:00.434 I also think, as opposed to 00:22:00.472 --> 00:22:04.290 downplaying our queerness, I would love to see more 00:22:04.360 --> 00:22:08.146 recognition of what our queerness really stands for. So there's one of two 00:22:08.168 --> 00:22:11.670 choices that you can make. If you have had a history, as the media 00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:15.426 has, of distorting, mischaracterizing and stereotyping 00:22:15.458 --> 00:22:18.166 queer people, you could downplay it and not talk about any difference at all, just 00:22:18.188 --> 00:22:21.938 say, oh, they just happen to be two people who are queer. Or you could 00:22:21.964 --> 00:22:25.066 say, maybe we need to think about how we present queer people in a more 00:22:25.088 --> 00:22:28.650 positive, affirming and culturally 00:22:29.070 --> 00:22:32.518 respectful light. And I would love to see more of that too, because there's parts 00:22:32.534 --> 00:22:36.046 of me as a queer person that, yeah, this is a queer thing that you 00:22:36.068 --> 00:22:39.166 might be experiencing and seeing. But let's talk about where it comes from and why 00:22:39.188 --> 00:22:42.586 it's important and how being in the crucible known 00:22:42.618 --> 00:22:46.466 as human existence as a minoritized person has contributed to 00:22:46.488 --> 00:22:49.854 this as opposed to just downplaying it to something that's not culturally 00:22:49.902 --> 00:22:53.666 informed or rich, layered, nuanced and complex. So I think 00:22:53.688 --> 00:22:57.294 it's a both. And has the media improved? 00:22:57.422 --> 00:23:01.030 Definitely. Are there still more opportunities 00:23:01.450 --> 00:23:04.166 for us? Yes, and I think one of the ways in which the media can 00:23:04.188 --> 00:23:07.874 improve its representation of us is not focusing 00:23:07.922 --> 00:23:11.746 just on the cisgender, straight male 00:23:11.858 --> 00:23:15.606 aspect of our community. I've been in many situations where 00:23:15.628 --> 00:23:18.746 people have said to me why don't we see more trans people? Why don't we 00:23:18.768 --> 00:23:20.906 see more bi people? Why don't we see more people of colour? Why don't we 00:23:20.928 --> 00:23:24.714 see more women? I'm like, well, we don't have enough time to talk about 00:23:24.752 --> 00:23:28.240 that. But at the same time it's not that complex because we have 00:23:28.690 --> 00:23:32.506 the same forces of racism and sexism and cisgenderism and ableism 00:23:32.538 --> 00:23:36.338 and all those sorts of things are still very much at play within our community 00:23:36.424 --> 00:23:40.114 and in terms of how people portray our community. So 00:23:40.152 --> 00:23:42.660 that would be something nice. And I think also 00:23:44.070 --> 00:23:47.702 seeing us in a more of an intersectional lens and 00:23:47.836 --> 00:23:50.600 recognising that. For example, 00:23:51.770 --> 00:23:55.442 what someone represents as queerness is and may be informed 00:23:55.506 --> 00:23:58.982 by their ethnicity and by 00:23:59.036 --> 00:24:02.874 their idea of gender, and that may work for them, 00:24:02.912 --> 00:24:06.326 but that is not how the rest of the community see 00:24:06.358 --> 00:24:10.154 itself. So I think the next chapter for us 00:24:10.272 --> 00:24:13.822 is and for how we're viewing the society as a whole 00:24:13.956 --> 00:24:16.830 is to see more of our multidimensionality. 00:24:17.890 --> 00:24:21.070 You see we are being recognised more for our humanity. 00:24:21.490 --> 00:24:25.054 I think there's more work that can be done, but I think also 00:24:25.092 --> 00:24:28.674 recognising more of our identity and recognising, too, 00:24:28.712 --> 00:24:32.510 that, yes, many of us have achieved some level of privilege, 00:24:32.590 --> 00:24:36.174 but there are still many of us in many countries around the world who don't 00:24:36.222 --> 00:24:39.966 have freedom. And I think that's the thing that concerns 00:24:39.998 --> 00:24:43.574 me is this trope of, oh, you all like to party. You all just are 00:24:43.612 --> 00:24:47.174