WEBVTT 00:00:01.530 --> 00:00:05.246 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and Ibe your host for the 00:00:05.268 --> 00:00:08.974 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I 00:00:09.012 --> 00:00:12.686 have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a 00:00:12.708 --> 00:00:15.546 conversation around the subject of inclusion, 00:00:15.658 --> 00:00:19.022 belonging and generally making the world a better 00:00:19.076 --> 00:00:22.542 place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, 00:00:22.676 --> 00:00:24.686 then please do drop me a line to 00:00:24.708 --> 00:00:28.978 jo.lockwood@seechangehapen.couk. 00:00:29.154 --> 00:00:32.882 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You 00:00:33.026 --> 00:00:36.722 can catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes, Spotify and 00:00:36.866 --> 00:00:40.426 the usual places. So plug in your headphones, 00:00:40.448 --> 00:00:44.220 grab a decaf and let's get going. Today 00:00:45.390 --> 00:00:48.460 is Episode 87 with 00:00:49.150 --> 00:00:52.806 the title Rebel Hearts and Healing Paths. 00:00:54.430 --> 00:00:57.546 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Debbie 00:00:57.578 --> 00:01:01.114 Dannon. Debbie describes herself as a leadership 00:01:01.162 --> 00:01:04.546 coach, facilitator and 00:01:04.648 --> 00:01:08.354 rebel. When I asked Debbie to describe her superpower, she 00:01:08.392 --> 00:01:12.226 said, taking pain and transforming it 00:01:12.248 --> 00:01:15.300 through healing and liberation into love 00:01:16.090 --> 00:01:19.622 both her own and others. Hello, 00:01:19.676 --> 00:01:23.478 Debbie. Welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. It's so good to 00:01:23.484 --> 00:01:26.854 be here with you. It's brilliant. I mean, we've known each other 00:01:26.892 --> 00:01:30.406 now four or five years, ever since we did a 00:01:30.588 --> 00:01:34.314 design for inclusion with Fearless Futures. Oh, that was a long 00:01:34.352 --> 00:01:38.138 time ago. Way before COVID Way before COVID You. Are definitely one of the 00:01:38.144 --> 00:01:41.978 trainees that I remember. I remember we connected quite deeply there and I 00:01:41.984 --> 00:01:45.546 was so delighted to reconnect with you through LinkedIn in more recent times, as we're 00:01:45.578 --> 00:01:49.054 both striving for similar things in the world. So I'm really, really 00:01:49.092 --> 00:01:52.698 glad that we not only met but also reconnected. 00:01:52.874 --> 00:01:56.274 Yeah. And I've been kind of secretly a bit of a fangirl of yours ever 00:01:56.312 --> 00:02:00.094 since. So, yeah, I was really inspired by that session. Mutual fangirling 00:02:00.142 --> 00:02:03.906 is about to occur. I can handle it. I can handle it. 00:02:03.928 --> 00:02:06.898 Can the audience? I don't know. So, Debbie 00:02:06.994 --> 00:02:10.774 debbie, tell me. Rebel hearts and 00:02:10.812 --> 00:02:14.200 healing paths. Tell me about yourself. 00:02:14.890 --> 00:02:18.694 Wow, I love this introduction. It's really speaking to 00:02:18.732 --> 00:02:22.506 who I think I'm becoming in the world and who I'm inviting my clients and 00:02:22.528 --> 00:02:25.786 my co conspirators to become as well. So, my name is 00:02:25.808 --> 00:02:29.590 Debbie. My pronouns are she, her. I was born 00:02:29.670 --> 00:02:32.758 in South London, but I live in North London. I do believe you can be 00:02:32.784 --> 00:02:36.558 both. People are very binary about these things. But I'm first generation in 00:02:36.564 --> 00:02:40.138 this country. My parents came from Istanbul in Turkey 00:02:40.234 --> 00:02:43.470 as Turkish Jews. So kind of minority within a minority 00:02:43.810 --> 00:02:47.490 living in a kind of predominantly white Christian or white atheist community 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:51.314 in South London. So ever since I was really little, I found myself having to 00:02:51.352 --> 00:02:55.186 explain things about why we didn't have a Christmas tree. And people asking, do 00:02:55.208 --> 00:02:58.178 you speak Jewish at home or Turkish with your family? And you're like, I'm like, 00:02:58.264 --> 00:03:02.006 Well, Jewish is our religion and Turkish is the 00:03:02.028 --> 00:03:05.686 language, these sorts of things, where even from a very young age, I found myself 00:03:05.788 --> 00:03:08.886 in a kind of explanatory role. So maybe it's not surprising, the kind of career 00:03:08.918 --> 00:03:12.474 path that I've taken from there. I have always been 00:03:12.512 --> 00:03:15.974 fascinated in religion and identity 00:03:16.102 --> 00:03:19.930 and I guess what has people act as they do? I guess 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.818 what has people act in ways that are compassionate and loving 00:03:23.914 --> 00:03:27.514 and affirming and kind of almost selfless, 00:03:27.562 --> 00:03:31.406 or, I guess, generous in those ways and then 00:03:31.428 --> 00:03:35.220 also ways in which human hearts can kind of close and we can become, 00:03:36.150 --> 00:03:39.794 by the same token, closed off. We can become judgmental, we can 00:03:39.832 --> 00:03:43.682 become disconnected, we can do harm to each other. 00:03:43.816 --> 00:03:47.562 And I've always been interested in that, but through different lenses. So I studied 00:03:47.646 --> 00:03:51.138 theology and religious studies at university and philosophy. 00:03:51.314 --> 00:03:54.834 I was at the same time super active in a Jewish 00:03:54.882 --> 00:03:58.120 youth group where I learned a lot of the leadership skills. And 00:03:58.490 --> 00:04:02.054 the facilitation that I do has its roots really in a lot of that theory 00:04:02.102 --> 00:04:05.306 and that practise of youth work. Very trying to be very 00:04:05.328 --> 00:04:09.046 democratic, trying to kind of remove a lot of the power dynamics that exist 00:04:09.078 --> 00:04:12.758 in formal education settings, making it possible for different people to 00:04:12.784 --> 00:04:16.526 participate, removing barriers. And then my career has kind of 00:04:16.548 --> 00:04:19.934 had different chapters to it. So I worked initially in the 00:04:19.972 --> 00:04:23.594 interfaith space. So I was one of the co founders of an interfaith 00:04:23.642 --> 00:04:27.266 organisation. It was at the time called Three Faith Forum. It's now. The Faith and 00:04:27.288 --> 00:04:31.106 Belief Forum. And we were developing a youth programme, a Muslim and 00:04:31.128 --> 00:04:34.802 a Christian colleague, and me as a Jewish colleague. We were 00:04:34.936 --> 00:04:38.734 highlighting and basically kind of imagining what it would be like to go into schools, 00:04:38.782 --> 00:04:42.438 particularly single faith schools, where they won't really meet people from different faiths and 00:04:42.444 --> 00:04:46.246 backgrounds. And we were experimenting with what kind of programming could we do 00:04:46.268 --> 00:04:50.086 with these young people and actually their teachers, too, in order to break down 00:04:50.108 --> 00:04:53.866 stereotypes. To help young people become more fluent and more 00:04:53.888 --> 00:04:57.734 confident. Having conversations about faith, without needing to abandon their own faith 00:04:57.782 --> 00:05:01.594 or without needing to change who they are in any way but making space for 00:05:01.632 --> 00:05:05.354 others in their world. And that led to developing a whole range of programming 00:05:05.402 --> 00:05:09.054 for businesses, too, around faith awareness, around how do we 00:05:09.092 --> 00:05:12.654 accommodate our Muslim friends at Ramadan? How do we not plan those 00:05:12.692 --> 00:05:16.478 meetings on the Jewish High Holy Days in September when everyone's back from holidays, 00:05:16.494 --> 00:05:20.306 but then Jews are taking off time? How do we ensure that there 00:05:20.328 --> 00:05:24.146 is vegetarian food if our Hindu colleagues who are 00:05:24.168 --> 00:05:27.942 vegetarian? How do we make sure that we're really making 00:05:27.996 --> 00:05:31.798 it possible for people to participate? And also addressing, at the really thin end of 00:05:31.804 --> 00:05:35.650 the wedge, anti Semitism Islamophobia, the kind of racism 00:05:35.730 --> 00:05:39.382 that kind of gets and prejudice that gets wrapped up with 00:05:39.436 --> 00:05:43.114 religion and the particular ways that plays out. So I did that for about eight 00:05:43.152 --> 00:05:46.458 years and then I moved to the city and I was working, as you and 00:05:46.464 --> 00:05:50.230 I now do, joanne with organisations. So I was designing 00:05:50.310 --> 00:05:54.014 leadership pathways for the kind of, I would say 00:05:54.052 --> 00:05:57.742 early talent, so it would be apprentices graduates and maybe 00:05:57.796 --> 00:06:01.326 kind of the first step up into kind of a bit more seniority in those 00:06:01.348 --> 00:06:05.054 first two years of working for corporates. So I was doing 00:06:05.092 --> 00:06:08.846 stuff with Deloitte and Clifford Chance and the bank of England and Vodafone 00:06:08.878 --> 00:06:12.482 and these kinds of folks really looking at how do we not only 00:06:12.536 --> 00:06:16.226 equip those young people to become part of the organisation, but how do we 00:06:16.248 --> 00:06:19.990 foster a sense of belonging? So they want to know. Retention is a really, really 00:06:20.060 --> 00:06:23.766 big question. You spent all this time and money and effort onboarding these 00:06:23.788 --> 00:06:27.250 young people and really giving them the best possible start in their careers, 00:06:27.330 --> 00:06:30.914 but why would they stay? They might stay for the pay. 00:06:30.972 --> 00:06:34.778 But more likely, and particularly we see that with Gen Y and 00:06:34.784 --> 00:06:38.506 Gen Z is they're going to stay because the values align, because they feel they 00:06:38.528 --> 00:06:39.740 belong, because 00:06:42.210 --> 00:06:45.390 they are being appreciated and they aren't sort of experiencing 00:06:45.890 --> 00:06:49.342 sort of being undermined or being patronised or being done 00:06:49.396 --> 00:06:53.246 down, which in all workplaces there are pockets of that. Right, 00:06:53.268 --> 00:06:56.078 so how do we address that? So that was fascinating work. I did that for 00:06:56.084 --> 00:06:59.866 a couple of years and I've been working for myself since 2017 and it's 00:06:59.898 --> 00:07:03.406 looked a number of different ways. I had an amazing partnership business for a couple 00:07:03.428 --> 00:07:07.266 of years, for about four years, with with my old business partner, Yasmin Akhtar. 00:07:07.298 --> 00:07:11.094 It was called Trust Lab. And we were experimenting with, how do we do 00:07:11.132 --> 00:07:14.866 really long term inclusion solutions with organisations who aren't 00:07:14.898 --> 00:07:18.534 just, wham, bam, let's do this on a Tuesday, and that can be that, but 00:07:18.572 --> 00:07:22.326 really looking at the long term path, of diagnosis 00:07:22.438 --> 00:07:25.930 of what's going on in an organisation, really listening to people 00:07:26.080 --> 00:07:29.866 and then designing bespoke interventions, whatever those look 00:07:29.888 --> 00:07:33.354 like, whether they look like training conversations, processes 00:07:33.402 --> 00:07:37.006 of defining leadership competencies and then ways of 00:07:37.028 --> 00:07:40.682 embedding them and then being able to communicate that internally. 00:07:40.746 --> 00:07:43.486 Lots of organisations want to rush to the bit where you shout about it to 00:07:43.508 --> 00:07:46.866 the outside world, but we were very clear that the first step is to 00:07:46.888 --> 00:07:50.322 start to do that internally, so that we're not kind of 00:07:50.456 --> 00:07:54.114 shouting about something before we've really achieved it inside. Including the learnings, right. 00:07:54.152 --> 00:07:56.754 Including the ways we mess up along the way. I think some of the best 00:07:56.792 --> 00:08:00.406 learning comes from that, if we can have the humility and accountability to get 00:08:00.428 --> 00:08:04.246 there. So it's worth saying that at this point in my journey, when 00:08:04.348 --> 00:08:07.974 Yassin and I were still working together, I went through a really 00:08:08.012 --> 00:08:11.618 difficult period in my own life. I experienced a miscarriage and then subsequent 00:08:11.714 --> 00:08:15.354 termination for medical reasons. So I was having fertility troubles for 00:08:15.392 --> 00:08:19.226 about two, three years and I was really down and out. Joanne I 00:08:19.248 --> 00:08:22.686 was not able to get out of bed. I was really suffering I didn't want 00:08:22.708 --> 00:08:26.446 to see friends who were pregnant. I was really having a tough time. 00:08:26.628 --> 00:08:30.442 And I guess what I learned 00:08:30.506 --> 00:08:34.026 during that time through seeking support, first of all, that seeking support is super 00:08:34.068 --> 00:08:37.826 important and shouldn't be something that we 00:08:37.848 --> 00:08:41.234 put off, shouldn't be something that we think, well, I'm okay. I'm just about 00:08:41.272 --> 00:08:45.074 surviving. I think sometimes, all of us, particularly British people, 00:08:45.112 --> 00:08:48.034 I think maybe, Joanne, you can concur we can be very stiff upper lip about 00:08:48.072 --> 00:08:51.062 these things. We can be like, oh, no, it's all fine. It's all all right. 00:08:51.116 --> 00:08:54.518 But actually, it's not really all right. So I got amazing support 00:08:54.604 --> 00:08:58.326 from a baby loss charity. But what I've really understood is there are 00:08:58.348 --> 00:09:01.686 parts of us that need to be heard. In each of us, there's sort of 00:09:01.708 --> 00:09:05.398 self inclusion that needs to happen. There were parts of me that I really didn't 00:09:05.494 --> 00:09:09.226 particularly want to acknowledge, that I was angry, that I was frustrated, that I was 00:09:09.248 --> 00:09:12.854 jealous, that I was grieving, that I felt 00:09:12.902 --> 00:09:16.686 alone. That's really difficult stuff to turn towards. It's much easier to turn 00:09:16.708 --> 00:09:20.046 away from it. But what I found was, and this speaks to the superpower that 00:09:20.068 --> 00:09:23.646 you mentioned when I turn towards those things, first of 00:09:23.668 --> 00:09:27.474 all, no emotion ever lost forever. I know it 00:09:27.512 --> 00:09:31.170 feels like it will, the pain, but to this day, there's never been 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:34.914 a difficult emotion that I've turned towards that has lasted forever. And the other 00:09:34.952 --> 00:09:38.726 thing is that by turning towards that pain, I've been able to move towards being 00:09:38.748 --> 00:09:42.342 an activist in that field as well. Around baby loss, not just 00:09:42.396 --> 00:09:46.038 around securing good provision for mental health support and 00:09:46.044 --> 00:09:49.080 perinatal mental health support, but also particularly around 00:09:50.270 --> 00:09:53.926 queer couples getting the support that they need when they go through baby 00:09:53.958 --> 00:09:57.402 loss. Because even the Miscarriage association in certain areas were 00:09:57.456 --> 00:10:00.860 very kind of, I think, insensitive in the way that 00:10:01.470 --> 00:10:04.894 there were certain chapters where there was some insensitivity around two 00:10:04.932 --> 00:10:08.686 lesbian mums, for example. Only one of them the one who had 00:10:08.708 --> 00:10:12.542 miscarried getting support, but then the other 00:10:12.596 --> 00:10:15.874 mum couldn't go to the men's group because it would be weird. It was just 00:10:15.912 --> 00:10:19.554 strange. So trying to sort of support in that way as well. 00:10:19.672 --> 00:10:23.426 So I now I'm a trained integral coach, which is 00:10:23.448 --> 00:10:27.246 a very holistic school of coaching, which takes into account a lot of business coaching. 00:10:27.278 --> 00:10:30.806 If anyone listening to this has had business coaching before, a lot of coaching is 00:10:30.828 --> 00:10:34.166 kind of head and heart. It's what I'm thinking about and what I'm feeling. And 00:10:34.188 --> 00:10:37.606 there's a goal, and we remove the obstacles and we go get the goal, and 00:10:37.628 --> 00:10:40.198 then we kind of, like, have a few fall downs. Like, we trip over the 00:10:40.204 --> 00:10:42.934 hurdles, and then we get back up again and we keep going towards the goal. 00:10:43.062 --> 00:10:46.874 My school of coaching, integral Coaching, which I now teach 00:10:46.912 --> 00:10:49.914 as well. So I'm now one of the faculty of the Integral Coaching School. Third 00:10:49.952 --> 00:10:53.786 space in the UK. This is a school of coaching, which takes 00:10:53.808 --> 00:10:57.438 into account much more of the human experience that kind of holistic. Joanne so 00:10:57.524 --> 00:11:01.166 we're talking about the spiritual I. E. What we believe our 00:11:01.188 --> 00:11:04.718 purpose to be, not necessarily religious, but our sense of purpose and community 00:11:04.804 --> 00:11:08.482 and connection with values, with the web of life. 00:11:08.536 --> 00:11:12.078 However you want to see that it's also about somatics it's about the body. It's 00:11:12.094 --> 00:11:15.934 about the fact that our brain is a physical thing living inside a physical 00:11:15.982 --> 00:11:19.702 body. And our legs are not just kind of like wheels that move things 00:11:19.836 --> 00:11:23.442 from place to place. Our whole bodies are experiencing 00:11:23.506 --> 00:11:27.238 everything we're experiencing. When we experience emotions and all of that, that's really big as 00:11:27.244 --> 00:11:30.666 well. Yeah. Go on, Joanne. You're going to jump in. I'm dying to ask you 00:11:30.688 --> 00:11:34.294 some things. First of all, you shared 00:11:34.342 --> 00:11:37.914 your experience through your pregnancy or 00:11:37.952 --> 00:11:41.740 miscarriages or termination, and one thing that jumped out at me there is that 00:11:42.590 --> 00:11:45.726 it's really hard for people to know what to say to you, isn't it? You 00:11:45.748 --> 00:11:49.454 must have found you're brave. You're this all these words, things 00:11:49.492 --> 00:11:53.102 coming out which are in danger of being patronising or not 00:11:53.156 --> 00:11:56.018 helpful or here we go again, almost verging on 00:11:56.024 --> 00:11:59.362 microaggression, experiencing the same things all over again. 00:11:59.496 --> 00:12:03.060 Reliving that trauma and having to explain to someone how you're feeling and how 00:12:04.070 --> 00:12:07.118 that sort of plays into I think a lot of things we talk about in 00:12:07.304 --> 00:12:11.080 the inclusion, the diversity space, is this fear of getting it wrong. 00:12:12.650 --> 00:12:16.358 I won't see Debbie this week because I don't know how to support her. I 00:12:16.364 --> 00:12:20.166 don't how to ask her that question. And 00:12:20.268 --> 00:12:23.962 fear of getting it wrong is a real paralyzer in the dei space. 00:12:24.016 --> 00:12:27.818 So how can people overcome that? I've just asked you that question now on the 00:12:27.824 --> 00:12:31.574 back of what you've said, and my brain's been running around overtime 00:12:31.622 --> 00:12:35.454 trying to figure out the right language to use. So how can people 00:12:35.492 --> 00:12:39.258 overcome this? Oh, that's such a great question, Joanne. 00:12:39.274 --> 00:12:42.238 And I think it shows such sensitivity to go, I know there's something to be 00:12:42.244 --> 00:12:45.140 said and I don't know quite what that is. And 00:12:46.470 --> 00:12:50.274 I think there's something to be said for affirming just 00:12:50.312 --> 00:12:54.034 going, that sounds really hard, right? Not trying to be trying to 00:12:54.072 --> 00:12:56.914 kind of make a hero of someone go, well, you're so brave. I could never 00:12:56.952 --> 00:13:00.440 do what you're doing. Or you hear when people die and people say, oh, 00:13:00.810 --> 00:13:04.306 I can't imagine what you're going through. Well, it is imaginable because it's happened. You're 00:13:04.338 --> 00:13:07.926 imagining it right now by empathising with me. So actually 00:13:08.108 --> 00:13:11.250 go to that space, imagine what it must be like, and just reflect back what 00:13:11.260 --> 00:13:15.034 you're hearing or what you imagine. Just saying, that sounds really hard. That 00:13:15.072 --> 00:13:18.586 sounds really difficult. There can be a tendency, can't there, to try to 00:13:18.608 --> 00:13:22.074 minimise or rationalise so saying, well, it's good that you can get pregnant, isn't it? 00:13:22.112 --> 00:13:25.934 Or, oh, but don't worry because I have a sister who had 00:13:25.972 --> 00:13:29.694 five miscarriages and now she's got three healthy kids and it's like, that's got really 00:13:29.732 --> 00:13:33.294 nothing to do with me. But that sounds a lot like you trying to 00:13:33.492 --> 00:13:36.938 make me feel better, but also make yourself feel better, because wouldn't it be nice 00:13:36.964 --> 00:13:40.066 if there was something simple that we could say that could make it better? So 00:13:40.088 --> 00:13:43.730 I think rather than try to make it better. Because quite often with 00:13:43.800 --> 00:13:47.538 grief, with loss, even with some of the stuff that's going on right now, I 00:13:47.544 --> 00:13:51.030 mean, my family in the Middle East and my friends 00:13:51.180 --> 00:13:54.998 who I used to facilitate with in the west bank and in know people are 00:13:55.004 --> 00:13:58.854 really grieving and they're in a really tough spot right now. I think trying 00:13:58.892 --> 00:14:02.374 to go into well, let me make it better by trying to rationalise it is 00:14:02.412 --> 00:14:06.138 a really it's such a well meaning move, but it's not the one that's going 00:14:06.144 --> 00:14:08.986 to bring relief. I think the more we can almost hold the mirror up and 00:14:09.008 --> 00:14:12.622 say, I see you, I really do see that you're trying and 00:14:12.676 --> 00:14:16.094 I really admire you, for these are the 00:14:16.132 --> 00:14:19.134 characteristics I see that you're showing, but I just want to acknowledge that that must 00:14:19.172 --> 00:14:23.006 be really hard. See, I cheated by 00:14:23.028 --> 00:14:25.778 asking you a meta question, didn't I, about how to answer the question, how to 00:14:25.784 --> 00:14:29.202 ask the question. So I was able to talk about it with you 00:14:29.336 --> 00:14:33.122 without actually diving into your pain, 00:14:33.176 --> 00:14:36.930 because I didn't know where you were on that journey or whether 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:40.360 that has healed within you or it's still there with you. So 00:14:40.890 --> 00:14:44.406 it can be tricky. I think what I would say to anybody is have a 00:14:44.428 --> 00:14:47.782 similar question. Just don't lean away from it. Lean into 00:14:47.836 --> 00:14:51.530 it with an open heart without being invasive 00:14:52.030 --> 00:14:55.866 and just be there for people. It's quite simple sometimes, but people do 00:14:55.888 --> 00:14:59.386 get scared. The other thing you mentioned right at the beginning, and 00:14:59.408 --> 00:15:03.194 there's so much in your opening to dive into, was 00:15:03.232 --> 00:15:06.814 the fact you're a minority and a minority. And when we think about 00:15:07.012 --> 00:15:10.800 what's going on in the world right now, certainly in the Middle East area, 00:15:12.950 --> 00:15:16.526 you've grown up in a world as a person of Jewish 00:15:16.558 --> 00:15:19.966 faith, in a Jewish family, in a very Muslim 00:15:19.998 --> 00:15:23.694 country with probably different core languages, Hebrew 00:15:23.742 --> 00:15:26.180 versus Turkish, different 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:30.438 character sets. And now you're in England or the 00:15:30.444 --> 00:15:34.038 UK, speaking English in a very kind of I 00:15:34.044 --> 00:15:37.790 suppose, again, our society is quite polarised. It's not all integrated, 00:15:37.970 --> 00:15:41.046 having to listen to what's going on in the world and people's 00:15:41.078 --> 00:15:44.826 opinions. And we obviously see marches in London at the 00:15:44.848 --> 00:15:47.580 moment, one against 00:15:48.670 --> 00:15:52.006 pro Palestinian, some anti Semitism, anti 00:15:52.038 --> 00:15:55.662 Semitic marches going on. We got far right 00:15:55.716 --> 00:15:59.194 people trying to dive in there and cause trouble for their own ends, 00:15:59.322 --> 00:16:02.960 and the government not able to make a cohesive statement of support. 00:16:03.970 --> 00:16:07.186 You must be really conflicted, not in your own community, because 00:16:07.368 --> 00:16:11.106 knowing as much as I know about you. You 00:16:11.128 --> 00:16:14.946 have compassion for all sides as. Well, don't yeah, no, thank 00:16:14.968 --> 00:16:18.580 you for asking that, Jo. It's been really difficult, and 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:23.602 I should say maybe this is the prelude to this, is that my rebel leadership 00:16:23.666 --> 00:16:27.334 practise now I run a practical rebel leadership is really about trying 00:16:27.372 --> 00:16:31.114 to show up in a world that is not set 00:16:31.152 --> 00:16:34.906 up for us to flourish, right? And I mean, violence is the absolute kind 00:16:34.928 --> 00:16:37.340 of sharp end of that. But for all of us, 00:16:38.670 --> 00:16:42.426 flourishing is something that we really have to work hard at. And 00:16:42.448 --> 00:16:46.254 I think you talked about thriving right at the beginning. And my whole 00:16:46.292 --> 00:16:49.726 philosophy is, what's the rebel move? What's the rebel move we can be 00:16:49.748 --> 00:16:53.326 making in a world that's not set up for flourishing, to create space for 00:16:53.348 --> 00:16:56.978 flourishing. And I do that through rebel authenticity, rebel balance and 00:16:56.984 --> 00:17:00.638 rebel courage. And I think I've been challenged in all of those areas 00:17:00.734 --> 00:17:04.434 with what's happened, what's been unfolding in Israel and the Middle 00:17:04.472 --> 00:17:08.318 East the last few weeks, because my instinct with that 00:17:08.344 --> 00:17:11.686 is like, rebel authenticity, I should speak out on what I believe in and my 00:17:11.708 --> 00:17:14.966 compassion for all sides and be a leader. Rebel balance, I 00:17:14.988 --> 00:17:18.694 should really ground myself and not get swept this way 00:17:18.732 --> 00:17:22.314 and that way. Rebel courage, I should really have a 00:17:22.352 --> 00:17:25.530 clear sense of what it is that I want to say. And the fact is, 00:17:25.600 --> 00:17:28.860 Joanne, when the trauma is fresh and 00:17:30.670 --> 00:17:34.474 I was traumatised on the 7 October, I was 00:17:34.512 --> 00:17:38.334 on Facebook looking through, literally because the news was not fast enough 00:17:38.372 --> 00:17:40.766 to catch up with what was happening. I was just going through, looking at all 00:17:40.788 --> 00:17:44.420 my friends in Israel saying, where's this person? Where's this person? 00:17:45.430 --> 00:17:49.218 I can't get hold of this person. And essentially some of the 00:17:49.224 --> 00:17:52.706 attacks were broadcast live by the people committing them, 00:17:52.808 --> 00:17:56.626 by the terrorists. And I saw some of what was happening 00:17:56.728 --> 00:18:00.534 live and I didn't realise until about two days later that it had 00:18:00.572 --> 00:18:04.002 completely taken up resonance in my body and completely dysregulated 00:18:04.066 --> 00:18:07.878 me. And I mean, if you think about the prolificness of these videos and 00:18:07.884 --> 00:18:10.940 what we're seeing, the footage from Gaza, from 00:18:12.910 --> 00:18:16.394 Know, I think a lot of us are in a state of dysregulation. Our 00:18:16.432 --> 00:18:19.740 bodies are not able to hold this much pain. 00:18:20.130 --> 00:18:23.594 And I guess to answer your question, yes, it's been deeply 00:18:23.642 --> 00:18:27.406 conflicting. It's been also deeply worrying to 00:18:27.428 --> 00:18:31.006 me that there's elements of the inclusion space where 00:18:31.188 --> 00:18:34.340 by taking sides in this, by saying, hey, 00:18:35.270 --> 00:18:39.090 if you support the Palestinians, then you support terrorism, or if you support 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:42.846 the Israelis, then you're racist and you're 00:18:42.958 --> 00:18:46.722 supporting state terrorism, whatever. By taking those 00:18:46.776 --> 00:18:50.578 sides, there's a way in which also Islamophobia and anti 00:18:50.594 --> 00:18:54.166 Semitism are allowed to play in those spaces that has made it really unsafe for 00:18:54.188 --> 00:18:57.878 me and actually unsafe for my Muslim friends and colleagues as well. And 00:18:57.884 --> 00:19:01.386 we've actually shared a lot of experiences of being like because I have relationships with 00:19:01.408 --> 00:19:04.614 Muslim colleagues and friends and actually Arab 00:19:04.662 --> 00:19:08.406 friends who are Christian or who are not religious. It's 00:19:08.438 --> 00:19:12.170 like, yeah, this is really, really unsafe for us right now. My husband is 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.854 Iraqi Indian, Jewish, so he's a brown man. I'm kind of white 00:19:15.892 --> 00:19:19.566 passing, brown passing, depending, whichever way you want to look at it. I'm kind of 00:19:19.588 --> 00:19:22.942 neither nor, but he's very much brown. And as well 00:19:22.996 --> 00:19:26.382 as seeing anti Semitic graffiti and having 00:19:26.436 --> 00:19:29.566 our Jewish bakery got 00:19:29.748 --> 00:19:33.442 smashed, the glass got smashed in. As well as that, he got profiled on public 00:19:33.496 --> 00:19:37.346 transport by the London Transport Police for being brown and bearded 00:19:37.378 --> 00:19:41.014 and carrying a so, like, that's the kind of complexity that we're living 00:19:41.052 --> 00:19:44.806 in right now. So what I am realising, the 00:19:44.828 --> 00:19:48.390 rebel move, Joanne, is for me, has been a 00:19:48.540 --> 00:19:52.214 rebel. Authenticity is like surrounding myself with people who see me 00:19:52.252 --> 00:19:56.026 as a human and who understand me and who don't paint me well. Because 00:19:56.048 --> 00:19:58.950 you're Jewish or because you have family in Israel, because you spent time in Israel, 00:19:59.030 --> 00:20:02.726 you can't possibly be part of our inclusion party. Like, I've 00:20:02.758 --> 00:20:05.834 literally had to leave spaces because I've called out some anti Semitism 00:20:05.882 --> 00:20:09.406 that's played itself out and wanted to have a conversation about it. And you know 00:20:09.428 --> 00:20:12.686 what? I didn't have the energy. And I was like, I'm not going to sit 00:20:12.708 --> 00:20:16.202 here and educate you when I myself am traumatised and going through ongoing trauma. 00:20:16.346 --> 00:20:19.714 On the other side of it, I have friends and I have people who listen 00:20:19.752 --> 00:20:22.386 to me and who recognise who I am. And I've had some of the most 00:20:22.408 --> 00:20:26.226 fruitful conversations about what's going on with my co conspirators, with 00:20:26.248 --> 00:20:29.574 whom I've facilitated dialogue in the region, because they know the complexity of it, 00:20:29.612 --> 00:20:33.462 because they're really committed to a different 00:20:33.516 --> 00:20:37.026 reality than the one we're seeing. In terms of rebel balance, 00:20:37.218 --> 00:20:40.294 I've just had to come off all social media, Joanne, like I have come off 00:20:40.332 --> 00:20:44.106 LinkedIn. I've decided I'm not going to retraumatize myself. I went on it for 00:20:44.128 --> 00:20:46.826 five minutes this morning and then cried for half an hour because I was like, 00:20:46.848 --> 00:20:50.358 this is just not it for me. And that's really hard for me because that's 00:20:50.374 --> 00:20:53.226 a big platform for me. I'm very, very connected to all my clients and co 00:20:53.248 --> 00:20:56.766 conspirators out there. But in terms of the way that the dialogue is 00:20:56.788 --> 00:21:00.458 unfolding, I'm not okay with it and it's discard. Bobby led 00:21:00.474 --> 00:21:04.186 into my system and I'm getting also somatic trauma support. So I'm having weekly 00:21:04.218 --> 00:21:07.986 trauma support again, reaching out for help. Do it early. I did it 00:21:08.008 --> 00:21:11.666 within two weeks. This time, I didn't wait months and months. And then in terms 00:21:11.688 --> 00:21:15.186 of rebel courage, I think the rebel move here is actually trying to 00:21:15.208 --> 00:21:18.934 imagine, I think, violence numbs imagination, Joanne, like, 00:21:19.052 --> 00:21:22.694 when things explode to the extent that they have, and 00:21:22.732 --> 00:21:26.262 when people are making statements about other human 00:21:26.316 --> 00:21:30.026 beings that are so dehumanising and who are actually when I think 00:21:30.048 --> 00:21:33.802 about. I've really experienced talk about turning towards 00:21:33.856 --> 00:21:37.706 difficult feelings. Like, I've experienced deep, deep sorrow and 00:21:37.728 --> 00:21:41.466 compassion for the Palestinian people and also deep, deep, I'm going to 00:21:41.488 --> 00:21:45.226 say it like anger and fury at the people who committed 00:21:45.258 --> 00:21:49.086 this against it could have been me and my like, had we been in 00:21:49.108 --> 00:21:52.826 the south of Israel visiting friends and family, that could have been us. So it's 00:21:52.858 --> 00:21:56.562 complex. I feel all these things very, very deeply. But in terms of 00:21:56.616 --> 00:21:59.060 the rebel courage element, it's like, 00:22:00.310 --> 00:22:04.146 where can I create space or where can I find space? And 00:22:04.168 --> 00:22:07.214 it's not going to be online, I don't think, in the kind of social media 00:22:07.272 --> 00:22:11.062 age of dumpster fire, just say something and then 00:22:11.116 --> 00:22:14.722 leave and get into the comments kind of broadcast only comments 00:22:14.786 --> 00:22:18.422 situation. I think it's going to be some kind of maybe online, but 00:22:18.476 --> 00:22:22.154 private spaces with people who are really committed to listening and 00:22:22.192 --> 00:22:25.946 being with each other and not turning away just because someone says something they 00:22:25.968 --> 00:22:29.770 disagree with. I'm really ruminating on what might be 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.594 the right place to place my rebel courage and 00:22:33.632 --> 00:22:37.306 actually serving my clients right now, like being there for my clients, many of whom 00:22:37.338 --> 00:22:40.814 have connections to the region, because I work with a lot of NGOs and 00:22:40.932 --> 00:22:44.446 think tanks and folks who are in the space. I think that's the best use 00:22:44.468 --> 00:22:46.798 of my rebel courage right now. So I guess it's a big learning. And I 00:22:46.804 --> 00:22:50.546 think for those of us in organisations as well, that sometimes when we're going through 00:22:50.568 --> 00:22:54.354 something big, our capacity just gets a bit smaller and we have to work 00:22:54.392 --> 00:22:57.826 within that capacity. Trying to overstretch myself and trying to be on LinkedIn and trying 00:22:57.848 --> 00:23:01.046 to be here and trying to be there doesn't serve right now. I've got very 00:23:01.068 --> 00:23:04.518 limited capacity. Sometimes I get triggered by something in the news and I cry for 00:23:04.524 --> 00:23:08.054 an hour and that's okay, I have to be 00:23:08.172 --> 00:23:11.990 mindful about my capacity. And it's actually 00:23:12.140 --> 00:23:15.926 kind of a weird capitalist extractive narrative that says that I have to be everywhere 00:23:15.958 --> 00:23:18.938 all at once and I have to be showing up in that way all the 00:23:18.944 --> 00:23:22.426 time. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but certainly 00:23:22.608 --> 00:23:25.580 very complex time. One thing 00:23:26.210 --> 00:23:29.998 I go back to, the Design for Inclusion sessions that you facilitated all 00:23:30.004 --> 00:23:33.150 those years ago. One thing that I've learned 00:23:33.490 --> 00:23:37.186 is that where do I get my information from? I get 00:23:37.208 --> 00:23:40.466 my information from the media. Do I trust the 00:23:40.488 --> 00:23:44.180 media? I'm not sure I can trust all of the media. 00:23:46.070 --> 00:23:49.766 I can't always unpack it. There's so many tropes, so many stereotypes, so 00:23:49.788 --> 00:23:53.046 many historical political angles on 00:23:53.068 --> 00:23:56.598 things that I've learned that what I need to do is find my own 00:23:56.684 --> 00:24:00.394 source of truth that I can trust. And even that is tricky to 00:24:00.432 --> 00:24:03.286 wade through. But one thing I have realised, 00:24:03.478 --> 00:24:07.114 listening to comments that you've made, other people I've made, that I know 00:24:07.152 --> 00:24:10.818 online and in person is that I don't 00:24:10.854 --> 00:24:14.478 know. I've learned that I don't know. I've learned that 00:24:14.564 --> 00:24:18.106 I have no ability to make a judgement, therefore 00:24:18.138 --> 00:24:21.854 I'm stepping out of judgement and listening. I 00:24:21.892 --> 00:24:25.554 do know that I want peace. I do know that I don't want 00:24:25.592 --> 00:24:29.342 people to die, whoever they may be. I don't want families 00:24:29.406 --> 00:24:33.186