WEBVTT 00:00:00.730 --> 00:00:04.254 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your 00:00:04.292 --> 00:00:08.126 host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In 00:00:08.148 --> 00:00:11.742 this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and 00:00:11.796 --> 00:00:14.654 simply had a conversation around the subject of 00:00:14.692 --> 00:00:18.494 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world 00:00:18.532 --> 00:00:21.150 a better place for everyone to thrive. 00:00:22.210 --> 00:00:25.206 To join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to 00:00:25.228 --> 00:00:28.422 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukl, 00:00:28.476 --> 00:00:32.130 that's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot Uk, 00:00:32.130 --> 00:00:35.958 you can catch up with all of the previous shows 00:00:35.964 --> 00:00:39.366 on itunes, Spotify and the usual places. So 00:00:39.398 --> 00:00:43.098 plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and 00:00:43.104 --> 00:00:45.740 let's get going. Today is 00:00:46.830 --> 00:00:50.574 Episode 88 with the title 00:00:50.612 --> 00:00:53.834 Adversity and Authentic Leadership, and 00:00:53.882 --> 00:00:57.706 I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome 00:00:57.738 --> 00:01:01.466 Samreen McGregor. Sam reen describes 00:01:01.498 --> 00:01:04.874 herself as an executive coach and 00:01:04.922 --> 00:01:08.414 a strategic advisor to leaders and organisations. 00:01:09.678 --> 00:01:13.074 And she encourages others to see diversity and 00:01:13.112 --> 00:01:16.530 trauma as a catalyst for empowerment. 00:01:17.350 --> 00:01:20.934 When I asked Samarine to describe a superpower, she said it is her 00:01:20.972 --> 00:01:24.742 unique blend of multicultural insight and 00:01:24.796 --> 00:01:28.374 transformative executive coaching expertise that she 00:01:28.412 --> 00:01:32.198 brings to the world. Hello, Samreen. Welcome to 00:01:32.204 --> 00:01:35.100 the show. Thank you, Jo. It's great to be here today. 00:01:35.470 --> 00:01:39.258 Pleasure. It's really great. I've had a great time chatting to 00:01:39.264 --> 00:01:42.574 you in the green room before we've gone live here. I can't wait to find 00:01:42.612 --> 00:01:45.930 out more. Really excited about this. So Samreen 00:01:46.090 --> 00:01:49.566 adversity and authentic leadership. What does 00:01:49.588 --> 00:01:53.146 that great. Great start. Well, look, 00:01:53.188 --> 00:01:56.754 there's two different words there I guess I want 00:01:56.792 --> 00:02:00.626 to speak about. One is one that's very core to 00:02:00.648 --> 00:02:04.254 me and certainly been core to me in my conscious 00:02:04.302 --> 00:02:07.826 life over the last six or seven years. And that's 00:02:07.858 --> 00:02:11.080 diversity and in the current 00:02:11.530 --> 00:02:14.520 backdrop that we all share, 00:02:15.370 --> 00:02:18.700 whether it's the last four or five years 00:02:19.470 --> 00:02:23.162 before and during and after the pandemic, or whether 00:02:23.216 --> 00:02:26.954 it's the very current, what I would call 00:02:26.992 --> 00:02:30.210 polycrisis of a sociopolitical economic, 00:02:30.310 --> 00:02:33.120 environmental, health, 00:02:33.970 --> 00:02:37.470 all of those factors in the current reality 00:02:38.610 --> 00:02:42.350 are volatile. They're changing, they're significantly 00:02:42.850 --> 00:02:46.674 altered. And although that may have been true 100 years ago, for those 00:02:46.712 --> 00:02:50.242 who lived, our access and our experience of those 00:02:50.296 --> 00:02:54.100 factors are particularly magnified at the moment. 00:02:54.550 --> 00:02:58.326 And so adversity is really something that I would 00:02:58.428 --> 00:03:01.926 suggest not many of us escape. And 00:03:02.028 --> 00:03:05.862 those adversities can span from being very personal, very 00:03:05.916 --> 00:03:09.462 internal, very intrinsic to us all the way 00:03:09.516 --> 00:03:12.882 through to quite externally driven 00:03:13.026 --> 00:03:16.746 and manifest in 00:03:16.768 --> 00:03:19.100 how we live, in our behaviours and how we work. 00:03:19.890 --> 00:03:23.390 And I feel that the skills 00:03:23.810 --> 00:03:26.910 needed to learn how to 00:03:27.060 --> 00:03:30.320 navigate adversities and live with them and work with them 00:03:31.330 --> 00:03:35.042 are truly critical at this 00:03:35.096 --> 00:03:38.782 time. And then authenticity. 00:03:38.926 --> 00:03:42.690 Well, I work with many people 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:46.326 across many industries and many organisations and 00:03:46.348 --> 00:03:49.414 businesses, and I have done for well over 2023, 00:03:49.452 --> 00:03:52.520 24 years. And 00:03:53.690 --> 00:03:57.458 throughout that time, whatever the context, I 00:03:57.564 --> 00:04:01.226 have experienced a 00:04:01.248 --> 00:04:05.066 number of factors that get in the way of how 00:04:05.088 --> 00:04:08.906 we connect with one another. And to 00:04:08.928 --> 00:04:12.080 use some psychological terms like masks and 00:04:12.610 --> 00:04:16.366 even metaphors like shields, we 00:04:16.388 --> 00:04:19.840 bring them with us to the places that 00:04:20.210 --> 00:04:23.986 we socialise. We work even in our own homes, in our 00:04:24.008 --> 00:04:27.554 own families. And there are very 00:04:27.752 --> 00:04:31.106 legitimate reasons why these masks or 00:04:31.288 --> 00:04:35.122 shields or barriers support us 00:04:35.256 --> 00:04:39.046 at times and that can get in the way 00:04:39.068 --> 00:04:42.614 of us being our true selves. And so I think 00:04:42.812 --> 00:04:46.646 if I combine the two words and not necessarily force them 00:04:46.668 --> 00:04:50.058 together, I think they both play an important 00:04:50.144 --> 00:04:53.770 role in how I learn about how I study 00:04:53.840 --> 00:04:57.626 and research and how I work with the people that I work with as 00:04:57.648 --> 00:05:00.640 an executive coach, as a 00:05:01.170 --> 00:05:04.926 consultant over the years and as an advisor and even as 00:05:04.948 --> 00:05:08.654 a friend and as a mother or wife. In 00:05:08.692 --> 00:05:12.046 all those contexts, the 00:05:12.228 --> 00:05:15.434 adversities that I face are a part 00:05:15.492 --> 00:05:19.026 of what make me me. And I would 00:05:19.048 --> 00:05:22.818 suggest that the same thing would apply for most of us. That's a beautiful 00:05:22.904 --> 00:05:26.546 start. I love what you're saying there and we don't think 00:05:26.568 --> 00:05:29.910 about some of the things that go on our lives as adversities necessarily. 00:05:31.370 --> 00:05:34.854 We hear a lot of people talk about resilience and if you're old 00:05:34.892 --> 00:05:38.422 enough back I think it was the 80s or 90s, we talked about bounce back 00:05:38.476 --> 00:05:42.326 ability, didn't we? That kind of the ability to be knocked 00:05:42.358 --> 00:05:45.834 down and get back up again. So what you're saying 00:05:45.872 --> 00:05:49.606 is we're all going through something and whether it's on a macro 00:05:49.638 --> 00:05:53.054 or micro level, we're all having 00:05:53.092 --> 00:05:56.190 to exhibit that resilience 00:05:56.610 --> 00:06:00.378 and deal with the diversity we're facing. Because I'm just thinking about what's 00:06:00.394 --> 00:06:02.786 going on in the world at the moment. We look at what's going on in 00:06:02.788 --> 00:06:05.938 the Middle East, what's going on in Ukraine, what's going on in other parts of 00:06:05.944 --> 00:06:09.794 the world. Politically, there's a lot of challenges that many people 00:06:09.832 --> 00:06:12.660 are facing that is 00:06:13.190 --> 00:06:15.330 causing psychological. 00:06:17.210 --> 00:06:20.822 It is. If I were to 00:06:20.876 --> 00:06:24.022 reflect on what I've learned just through my own life 00:06:24.076 --> 00:06:27.754 journey and how I see my 00:06:27.792 --> 00:06:31.626 experience with people day to day today in 00:06:31.648 --> 00:06:35.434 the current context, I would 00:06:35.472 --> 00:06:39.082 say that the word trauma has 00:06:39.136 --> 00:06:42.854 two just to simplify it, really. But it's not as binary 00:06:42.902 --> 00:06:46.638 as this, but two different reactions. One is to embrace it 00:06:46.644 --> 00:06:50.334 and to be curious about it and to work with it and to get help 00:06:50.452 --> 00:06:54.286 if it's causing effects that are getting in the 00:06:54.308 --> 00:06:57.726 way of our livelihood. But there's also an 00:06:57.748 --> 00:07:01.550 avoidance for it, towards it and a fear of 00:07:01.620 --> 00:07:03.600 what it is or even 00:07:04.890 --> 00:07:08.546 a negative connotation associated 00:07:08.578 --> 00:07:12.226 with it. There's a stigma in many cultures. It's 00:07:12.258 --> 00:07:15.560 very much associated with weakness, which 00:07:16.650 --> 00:07:19.766 isn't easy to be with. 00:07:19.948 --> 00:07:23.786 And I do see more and more and 00:07:23.808 --> 00:07:26.778 I think that the wake up call for me was right in the midst of 00:07:26.784 --> 00:07:30.578 the pandemic. I was working within a big corporate organisation 00:07:30.774 --> 00:07:34.590 going through a fairly significant set of 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:38.382 transformations. One was a merger and the other 00:07:38.436 --> 00:07:41.950 was a digital transformation. Not just for the business 00:07:42.020 --> 00:07:45.666 itself, but it was attempting a transformation for the 00:07:45.688 --> 00:07:49.122 industry as a whole and the impact that that 00:07:49.176 --> 00:07:52.658 traumatic organisational experience was having 00:07:52.744 --> 00:07:56.038 on its people. In addition to the Pandemic and us being in 00:07:56.044 --> 00:07:59.670 lockdown. I remember sitting, 00:08:00.010 --> 00:08:03.846 as I was, working with quite a few teams at the time, and individuals and 00:08:03.868 --> 00:08:06.934 some of the leaders across the organisation, and just 00:08:06.972 --> 00:08:10.458 noticing that we were all living 00:08:10.544 --> 00:08:12.810 amongst some fairly 00:08:13.630 --> 00:08:17.338 unprecedented conditions. And that 00:08:17.424 --> 00:08:20.874 was a trauma that we were all experiencing 00:08:21.002 --> 00:08:24.446 in that moment. And so I started to 00:08:24.548 --> 00:08:28.314 explore and try to understand what is trauma? 00:08:28.362 --> 00:08:31.550 And I was very inspired by 00:08:31.620 --> 00:08:35.246 and supported by the definition that Dr Gabor Mate 00:08:35.278 --> 00:08:38.562 gives, which is that trauma in 00:08:38.696 --> 00:08:42.334 the Greek language is defined 00:08:42.382 --> 00:08:45.700 as a wound. And 00:08:46.470 --> 00:08:49.780 it's not necessarily a catastrophic event or, 00:08:50.390 --> 00:08:54.102 know, unexpected. It's what happen within 00:08:54.156 --> 00:08:57.962 our bodies, not just our psyche, but within 00:08:58.016 --> 00:09:01.366 our bodies. And unlike physical wounds 00:09:01.478 --> 00:09:05.210 that form scar tissue and that hardens, 00:09:08.190 --> 00:09:11.274 they stay with us. But they're very deep. They're very, very deep 00:09:11.322 --> 00:09:13.200 wounds and 00:09:14.850 --> 00:09:18.490 they're a form of trauma, 00:09:18.650 --> 00:09:22.030 psychological trauma, even physiological trauma, 00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:26.414 they interact with how our neurology 00:09:26.462 --> 00:09:29.460 works and how our physiology works. So, 00:09:30.390 --> 00:09:33.922 yes, in this current context, I would say many of us are 00:09:34.056 --> 00:09:37.510 holding and carrying these effects. 00:09:38.650 --> 00:09:42.040 I've heard people liken this 00:09:42.410 --> 00:09:46.214 psychological load we 00:09:46.252 --> 00:09:49.642 carry. As if you think about a sheet of a four 00:09:49.696 --> 00:09:53.414 paper, brand new out of the packet and you scrunch 00:09:53.462 --> 00:09:57.242 it up, even though you can flatten it back out again, 00:09:57.296 --> 00:10:00.970 it's never without the lines, never as perfect 00:10:01.040 --> 00:10:04.670 as it was. So even if we fix 00:10:04.740 --> 00:10:08.394 ourselves as much as we can, we still carry, as you say, those scars, 00:10:08.522 --> 00:10:11.934 those creases, those scrunch marks of that 00:10:11.972 --> 00:10:15.794 trauma that we've been through. I guess it's how we process that, 00:10:15.832 --> 00:10:18.914 because some of those are battle scars of 00:10:18.952 --> 00:10:22.210 resilience and some of them are maybe 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.910 unhealed wounds that we have to process 00:10:26.060 --> 00:10:28.920 and deal with over time. So it's how we can move on from 00:10:29.610 --> 00:10:32.898 that scarring. Yes, I think that's 00:10:32.994 --> 00:10:36.402 really palpable metaphor 00:10:36.466 --> 00:10:39.580 and it's very helpful because 00:10:40.350 --> 00:10:44.026 you just see the 00:10:44.048 --> 00:10:47.834 permanence and the impermanence of that, if that makes sense. It's both, 00:10:47.872 --> 00:10:51.422 isn't it? And I would say that in my 00:10:51.476 --> 00:10:55.226 experience, there are aspects of trauma 00:10:55.258 --> 00:10:58.782 that are incredibly supportive and they 00:10:58.836 --> 00:11:02.626 challenge us. In fact, they stretch from a 00:11:02.648 --> 00:11:06.130 neuroscientific perspective. They help us form 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:09.966 those elastic possibilities 00:11:10.158 --> 00:11:13.982 in our synaptic activity and enable 00:11:14.046 --> 00:11:17.494 us to do more. So that's sort of the 00:11:17.532 --> 00:11:21.122 biochemistry of the resilience that you were mentioning 00:11:21.186 --> 00:11:24.902 earlier. But equally, there are 00:11:25.036 --> 00:11:28.438 layers of us that are affected 00:11:28.614 --> 00:11:31.930 either more shallow or more deeply 00:11:32.270 --> 00:11:35.754 by some of these traumas. And the quality of 00:11:35.792 --> 00:11:38.460 how we resolve or work with or 00:11:38.910 --> 00:11:42.346 understand the effects becomes 00:11:42.458 --> 00:11:45.662 increasingly important. The more I work 00:11:45.716 --> 00:11:49.022 with people and teams, the more 00:11:49.076 --> 00:11:52.638 I see that I often 00:11:52.724 --> 00:11:56.562 am coming up against. And they share and we're talking 00:11:56.616 --> 00:12:00.466 about symptoms and we're talking about undesirable effects that 00:12:00.488 --> 00:12:04.174 they're living with, that the coaching creates a safe container 00:12:04.222 --> 00:12:06.760 and a challenging space to work through. 00:12:07.930 --> 00:12:11.638 And I think the thing that I've realised is that 00:12:11.804 --> 00:12:15.442 the hidden effects, the unseen but felt 00:12:15.506 --> 00:12:19.226 effects of those unresolved aspects that live 00:12:19.248 --> 00:12:22.970 within us can be quite obscure, 00:12:23.710 --> 00:12:27.370 really subtle. But when 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:31.214 we start to notice some of the connections between how they 00:12:31.252 --> 00:12:34.254 live within us and then how they influence our 00:12:34.292 --> 00:12:38.094 reactions, our responses, our 00:12:38.132 --> 00:12:41.806 behaviours, the actions we take, even how we 00:12:41.828 --> 00:12:45.506 feel, generally, the more I 00:12:45.528 --> 00:12:49.102 realise how important it is for us to truly understand some of these connections 00:12:49.166 --> 00:12:52.818 and the possibilities that come from learning 00:12:52.904 --> 00:12:56.742 how to not necessarily resolve them. Because sometimes they're not 00:12:56.796 --> 00:13:00.626 fully resolvable, but it's actually acknowledge them and notice they're 00:13:00.658 --> 00:13:04.326 there so that we can regulate how we are responding and acting and 00:13:04.348 --> 00:13:07.240 behaving. Yeah, I can imagine where 00:13:07.870 --> 00:13:11.638 if you're constantly having reinforced 00:13:11.734 --> 00:13:15.066 messaging through trauma, it can affect your sense of 00:13:15.088 --> 00:13:18.266 self. You internalise a 00:13:18.288 --> 00:13:22.106 negative state of who you are, your emotions, 00:13:22.298 --> 00:13:25.850 and they become self fulfilling. This internalisation could become self fulfilling, 00:13:25.930 --> 00:13:29.482 hard to move on plays into impostor syndrome or limiting 00:13:29.546 --> 00:13:32.990 beliefs or triggers anxiety 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:37.186 when certain scenarios are relived. And that 00:13:37.208 --> 00:13:41.026 must be really I guess everyone's going to be different on this and the way 00:13:41.048 --> 00:13:44.370 people deal with that, but it's going to exhibit itself in stress 00:13:44.950 --> 00:13:48.594 different ways of communicating, less responsive, the emotional intelligence 00:13:48.642 --> 00:13:51.574 takes a hit and they may not be as self aware of their 00:13:51.612 --> 00:13:55.318 behaviours. All these kind of things kick in when 00:13:55.404 --> 00:13:58.886 you're trying to maybe work through those 00:13:58.908 --> 00:14:02.074 traumas of the past even though they're maybe subliminal. You don't know you're going through 00:14:02.112 --> 00:14:05.914 that trauma or reliving that, but there's something. That'S triggering it is I mean, 00:14:06.112 --> 00:14:09.766 I recently did a talk and I'll share the story that I shared 00:14:09.798 --> 00:14:13.454 during that talk because it was one that came to me 00:14:13.492 --> 00:14:16.398 as I was preparing and 00:14:16.564 --> 00:14:20.202 classifying different versions of trauma. And I think it's important to notice 00:14:20.266 --> 00:14:23.922 that some of us might respond and go 00:14:24.056 --> 00:14:27.380 I've never been traumatised because I've never really had anything 00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:31.282 really significant happen to me. But I started 00:14:31.336 --> 00:14:34.900 to explore that spectrum. You've got 00:14:35.770 --> 00:14:39.320 these moment to moment events that happen. 00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:42.966 Some of the typical contexts for that are 00:14:42.988 --> 00:14:46.422 childhood and during 00:14:46.476 --> 00:14:50.310 childhood we experience adversities 00:14:50.390 --> 00:14:53.420 traumas challenges. They could be anything 00:14:54.110 --> 00:14:57.500 and they form an imprint, they form some sort of imprint and 00:14:58.910 --> 00:15:02.206 the extent to which those imprints are negative or a 00:15:02.228 --> 00:15:06.062 wound that can sort of follow 00:15:06.116 --> 00:15:09.822 on later on in life will determine whether 00:15:09.876 --> 00:15:13.634 it's a trauma or not. And then we've got these 00:15:13.672 --> 00:15:17.426 incidences throughout our lives when we're perhaps more 00:15:17.448 --> 00:15:21.266 mature or have far more conscious ability to 00:15:21.288 --> 00:15:25.006 work with them. But even then they leave imprints. And these 00:15:25.048 --> 00:15:28.770 imprints again, have characteristics 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:32.498 around how we respond to those imprints. And sometimes they're 00:15:32.514 --> 00:15:35.958 connected to our childhood, sometimes they're just connected. And so 00:15:36.124 --> 00:15:39.962 I'll share two stories that maybe brings this to life. But the first story, 00:15:40.016 --> 00:15:43.770 the one that I mentioned in the talk. My dad 00:15:45.790 --> 00:15:49.354 is a very bright man. He's Indian. He's from 00:15:49.392 --> 00:15:53.098 India. Because I'm half Venezuelan, half Indian. My mother's 00:15:53.114 --> 00:15:56.510 from Venezuela and I was born and raised there. But my father, 00:15:57.330 --> 00:16:00.798 he came from a family of 00:16:00.964 --> 00:16:03.780 nine siblings. He was the eldest boy 00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:08.258 and he was born through the turmoil of the 00:16:08.264 --> 00:16:12.066 Second World War. And when his 00:16:12.168 --> 00:16:15.542 two youngest brothers were born, his father had already 00:16:15.596 --> 00:16:18.120 retired and 00:16:19.130 --> 00:16:22.610 he was burdened with this mantle of responsibility 00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:26.166 that he would have to and in those 00:16:26.268 --> 00:16:29.482 families, it was a Muslim family, it was very 00:16:29.536 --> 00:16:33.370 important that the eldest brother, 00:16:33.790 --> 00:16:36.986 the eldest boy, looked after. There 00:16:37.008 --> 00:16:39.980 was second kin and 00:16:41.090 --> 00:16:44.558 his grit bore fruit because he 00:16:44.724 --> 00:16:47.920 incredible. Got a full 00:16:48.690 --> 00:16:52.126 research fellowship to Stanford University in the US, took a 00:16:52.148 --> 00:16:55.946 boat, a big ship, and went to Stanford and 00:16:56.068 --> 00:16:59.902 ended up with a PhD, a master's and then a PhD, 00:16:59.966 --> 00:17:03.698 rather. And then he did another PhD, by the way, later on. This is what 00:17:03.704 --> 00:17:07.554 my dad's like. And by then, his family had been forced 00:17:07.602 --> 00:17:11.202 out of India through the partition. And so, thankfully, 00:17:11.266 --> 00:17:14.440 he was able to provide quite a lot for his family. 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:19.286 Now, the relevance of that story is 00:17:19.468 --> 00:17:23.274 the weight of a word he used towards me throughout my life, 00:17:23.472 --> 00:17:26.666 and the word was stupid. I know it sounds a bit embarrassing to even say 00:17:26.688 --> 00:17:29.820 it, it's, like, so trivial. It seems really 00:17:30.190 --> 00:17:33.854 ridiculous, actually, when I even say it out loud. But throughout my childhood, he 00:17:33.892 --> 00:17:37.706 did call me stupid a lot, and he still does, by the way, and I'm 00:17:37.738 --> 00:17:41.566 nearly 50, so it's that kind of it's gone on and on 00:17:41.588 --> 00:17:45.322 and on. And I remember in my teenage 00:17:45.386 --> 00:17:48.658 years, and maybe early 20s, when I'd get really angry and say, why do you 00:17:48.664 --> 00:17:52.046 keep calling me that? It doesn't matter what it is. Whether I've stacked the dish 00:17:52.078 --> 00:17:55.554 wrong and my dad's quite OCD in the kitchen, or whether I've 00:17:55.682 --> 00:17:59.366 answered an algebraic equation wrongly, or whether I've made a 00:17:59.388 --> 00:18:03.174 decision with a boyfriend that wasn't one that he'd like. 00:18:03.372 --> 00:18:06.982 All of these different examples were 00:18:07.036 --> 00:18:10.570 all classified for him as stupid. 00:18:10.990 --> 00:18:14.346 And what I realised later on in life, 00:18:14.448 --> 00:18:18.202 and again, this has taken quite a lot of personal work, is 00:18:18.256 --> 00:18:21.898 that my relationships with bosses, 00:18:21.994 --> 00:18:25.774 often male, I would go above and 00:18:25.812 --> 00:18:29.646 beyond my call of duty to make sure 00:18:29.748 --> 00:18:32.786 that I didn't come across as inadequate or 00:18:32.808 --> 00:18:36.210 stupid. So I'd work myself, 00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:40.066 solidly my ambition, sometimes gets the 00:18:40.088 --> 00:18:43.906 best of me, and I would do anything 00:18:44.088 --> 00:18:47.874 to get the acknowledgment, the feedback 00:18:47.922 --> 00:18:51.590 that not only was my work complete, but it was outstanding. And the more 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:54.920 I got this positive feedback, the more 00:18:55.290 --> 00:18:59.130 I'd see out these challenges and relationships. 00:18:59.630 --> 00:19:03.066 And it was extraordinary. And to the 00:19:03.088 --> 00:19:06.074 detriment of my relationships, as in 00:19:06.112 --> 00:19:09.958 friendships, even my relationships at home, I'm a 00:19:09.984 --> 00:19:13.726 mother, I've got two children, and at times my ability to 00:19:13.748 --> 00:19:17.200 be a good parent. But at work, 00:19:17.810 --> 00:19:21.022 it was my ability to set boundaries and manage 00:19:21.076 --> 00:19:24.642 them. So it's a very 00:19:24.696 --> 00:19:28.020 trivial word, used 00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:32.306 frequently and often. And look at the 00:19:32.328 --> 00:19:35.854 impact it had on my behaviours, 00:19:35.902 --> 00:19:39.690 professionally. Listened 00:19:39.710 --> 00:19:42.886 to you speak. And I, too, 00:19:42.988 --> 00:19:46.262 am a survivor of the word 00:19:46.316 --> 00:19:49.850 stupid. Throughout my life, my father 00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:53.914 used to use that kind of word, or if not 00:19:53.952 --> 00:19:57.802 that word, but trivialised my 00:19:57.856 --> 00:20:01.470 contribution to something, my effort, my attempt. 00:20:02.770 --> 00:20:06.510 I went through a cycle where he would never let me write anything 00:20:06.580 --> 00:20:10.400 in ink until I'd written it in pencil first. 00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:13.678 He checked it was okay, and then I could ink over the top of it. 00:20:13.684 --> 00:20:16.238 So if I was writing an application form for a job or something when I 00:20:16.244 --> 00:20:20.046 was in my teens, or if I was writing some homework for school, I 00:20:20.068 --> 00:20:23.886 had to write it out in pencil first, make sure that it's done correctly, and 00:20:23.908 --> 00:20:27.426 then I was allowed to ink it over because there was no trust. I wasn't 00:20:27.458 --> 00:20:30.914 allowed to make mistakes. And I think we think talk about things like psychological 00:20:30.962 --> 00:20:34.054 safety. You need to allow people to make 00:20:34.092 --> 00:20:37.734 mistakes because you don't learn by getting things right first time, every 00:20:37.772 --> 00:20:41.546 time you don't know where you're going wrong. So I have a similar 00:20:41.648 --> 00:20:44.954 history in trying to prove everybody else wrong about 00:20:44.992 --> 00:20:48.618 me. It's driven me, but it also manifests itself 00:20:48.704 --> 00:20:51.150 as in procrastination, 00:20:52.290 --> 00:20:55.898 I won't start things unless I can finish them perfectly. 00:20:56.074 --> 00:20:59.694 And I've had to recalibrate perfect to 00:20:59.732 --> 00:21:03.582 being good enough. And I've started to understand that good enough 00:21:03.636 --> 00:21:07.086 is good enough. And, yeah, unless you're a brain 00:21:07.118 --> 00:21:10.754 surgeon, perfect is the only outcome, but good enough for 00:21:10.792 --> 00:21:14.018 most things. It's the 80 20 I've had to learn about 80 20. I've had 00:21:14.024 --> 00:21:17.698 to learn that perfection is the enemy of progress, et cetera, et 00:21:17.714 --> 00:21:20.774 cetera. But it's taken me a lot of my life, and I still have those 00:21:20.812 --> 00:21:24.040 flashbacks of not being able to do things 00:21:24.410 --> 00:21:27.910 unless I can do them better than anybody 00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:31.482 else. And I also seek a bit of validation and personal 00:21:31.536 --> 00:21:35.286 validation. And I don't hunger 00:21:35.478 --> 00:21:39.226 for well done, but I want people to know that I'm the 00:21:39.248 --> 00:21:43.074 best I can be, even if it's just them giving me a nod 00:21:43.222 --> 00:21:46.846 or talking to me or treating me in the way that go, yeah, Joanne's really 00:21:46.868 --> 00:21:50.334 good at this, or Joanne's top of the class. And I end up 00:21:50.372 --> 00:21:53.854 gravitating to senior roles purely because 00:21:53.972 --> 00:21:57.710 I want to keep testing myself and testing myself. Testing 00:21:59.410 --> 00:22:02.914 you've got what you're saying there resonates. I can see that. And all of 00:22:02.952 --> 00:22:04.980 those examples are 00:22:06.970 --> 00:22:10.226 I really connect with. And it's 00:22:10.258 --> 00:22:10.840 interesting 00:22:13.370 --> 00:22:17.206 that in an organisation or 00:22:17.228 --> 00:22:20.410 in any sort of corporate context or organisational context, 00:22:21.070 --> 00:22:24.170 we've got individuals who are coming with these sorts of 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.754 versions of these sorts of experiences and 00:22:27.872 --> 00:22:31.674 whether they're a deep wound that affected them, some people are less affected, 00:22:31.722 --> 00:22:35.534 and there might be other factors. Know who 00:22:35.572 --> 00:22:38.590 they know. Carl Jung would say that their 00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:41.200 disposition would be different. Yeah, 00:22:42.610 --> 00:22:46.366 but actually what's interesting is that in many know there's 00:22:46.558 --> 00:22:50.338 an intent to set psychological safety and 00:22:50.424 --> 00:22:54.222 create those sorts of messages, narratives, 00:22:54.286 --> 00:22:58.006 conditions, expectations but this part of the 00:22:58.028 --> 00:23:01.654 puzzle plays a significant role. It doesn't matter 00:23:01.692 --> 00:23:05.000 how many times you expect leaders or 00:23:05.450 --> 00:23:09.074 cultures to shift in line with some of these factors 00:23:09.122 --> 00:23:12.458 and conditions that are needed to invite for example, 00:23:12.544 --> 00:23:16.266 inclusivity or a sense of belonging. And I'm sure we'll talk a little bit 00:23:16.288 --> 00:23:19.750 about belonging, because I've certainly had real challenges 00:23:19.830 --> 00:23:23.374 belonging in many contexts throughout my own life 00:23:23.412 --> 00:23:27.182 story. And all of these expectations are only 00:23:27.236 --> 00:23:30.800 one part of the equation. And 00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:34.814 the part of the equation that involves the individuals 00:23:34.862 --> 00:23:38.274 themselves truly understanding how to 00:23:38.312 --> 00:23:42.082 receive that message, how to engage with it, how 00:23:42.136 --> 00:23:45.766 their own personal story, like you and I have just shared, might 00:23:45.868 --> 00:23:48.360 interfere with their ability to 00:23:49.770 --> 00:23:53.174 adapt in line with some of these expectations. It's quite 00:23:53.212 --> 00:23:54.920 challenging, it's quite hard. 00:23:56.810 --> 00:23:59.020 Yeah, you mentioned belonging and 00:24:00.590 --> 00:24:04.106 I often talk about belonging and to try 00:24:04.128 --> 00:24:07.434 and give context that belonging isn't the same as 00:24:07.472 --> 00:24:11.246 inclusion and in the same that being alone is not the same 00:24:11.268 --> 00:24:14.494 as being lonely. There's nuances and you can be 00:24:14.532 --> 00:24:17.550 included yet still not feel belonging. 00:24:21.970 --> 00:24:25.138 How does that manifest itself with you? I've got my own anecdote but I'd love 00:24:25.144 --> 00:24:28.754 to hear your manifestation of belongingness if you like. 00:24:28.952 --> 00:24:31.620 How do you know? So, look, 00:24:33.750 --> 00:24:37.234 as I explained my sort of national background, 00:24:37.362 --> 00:24:40.966 my father, in the end, married a Venezuelan woman, who he 00:24:40.988 --> 00:24:44.838 met at Stanford, actually, and 00:24:44.844 --> 00:24:48.566