WEBVTT 00:00:00.730 --> 00:00:04.522 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host 00:00:04.666 --> 00:00:08.414 for the Inclusion Bites Podcast. In this 00:00:08.452 --> 00:00:12.206 series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had 00:00:12.228 --> 00:00:16.026 a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging 00:00:16.138 --> 00:00:19.706 and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 00:00:19.898 --> 00:00:23.086 If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a 00:00:23.108 --> 00:00:26.790 line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, 00:00:26.860 --> 00:00:30.636 that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. 00:00:30.636 --> 00:00:34.214 You can catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes, 00:00:34.252 --> 00:00:37.510 Spotify and the usual places. So 00:00:37.870 --> 00:00:41.478 plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and 00:00:41.654 --> 00:00:45.260 let's get going. Today is 00:00:45.630 --> 00:00:49.414 Episode 89 with the title Unearthing 00:00:49.542 --> 00:00:53.134 Potential beyond the Resume. 00:00:53.172 --> 00:00:57.006 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome 00:00:57.028 --> 00:01:00.506 Sara Dalsfeld. Sara is the Chief Marketing 00:01:00.538 --> 00:01:04.014 Officer at Adway. Adway are a talent attraction 00:01:04.062 --> 00:01:07.714 suite, a consciously inclusive platform that 00:01:07.912 --> 00:01:11.170 is built to find hard to reach talent on social media. 00:01:11.240 --> 00:01:15.018 And when I asked Sara to describe her superpower, she 00:01:15.054 --> 00:01:18.870 said she unapologetically dares 00:01:19.370 --> 00:01:22.520 to be herself and walks the talk. Hello, 00:01:23.210 --> 00:01:26.934 Sara, welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you for 00:01:26.972 --> 00:01:30.360 having me on the show. We met 00:01:31.370 --> 00:01:34.406 several years ago. I think I did an adway 00:01:34.598 --> 00:01:38.038 podcast or live stream with you and we just went in the green room, weren't 00:01:38.054 --> 00:01:41.770 we? That was four or five years ago, early COVID. Yeah, 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.486 I just looked back. You were on my LinkedIn live show, 2019, I 00:01:45.508 --> 00:01:49.326 believe, and we did a fabulous episode. You can 00:01:49.348 --> 00:01:52.942 still rewatch it, everyone, for listening. In English it was called is 00:01:52.996 --> 00:01:56.434 hiring for diversity hiring for second best? And we 00:01:56.472 --> 00:02:00.126 unpacked what conscious inclusion means in Practise for hiring teams. 00:02:00.158 --> 00:02:03.666 It's still a really good topic, a really good show. 00:02:03.848 --> 00:02:07.122 And that's how we met, I believe, through the TA 00:02:07.176 --> 00:02:10.934 community. It was last 00:02:10.972 --> 00:02:14.450 year. Yeah, we did on the adway 00:02:14.530 --> 00:02:18.146 stand, yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. I've been a fan of yours ever since, 00:02:18.188 --> 00:02:21.814 Joanne. Like what you do for the space, who you are, the knowledge 00:02:21.862 --> 00:02:25.162 you bring, the perspectives. I recommend you to 00:02:25.216 --> 00:02:28.662 everyone I stumble across for Conscious Inclusive 00:02:28.726 --> 00:02:32.458 hiring tactics. For those of you can't see, 00:02:32.544 --> 00:02:36.366 because this is a podcast, I've gone bright red, I'm blushing, I'm all over the 00:02:36.388 --> 00:02:40.094 place. This fangirl stuff is hard to take. 00:02:40.132 --> 00:02:43.906 Fangirls. You have to take it in. You're an important voice. Thank 00:02:43.928 --> 00:02:47.422 you. So, Unearthing 00:02:47.486 --> 00:02:51.278 Potential and so what is beyond the resume? Can we bin 00:02:51.294 --> 00:02:55.006 the resume? Yeah. For me, I 00:02:55.048 --> 00:02:58.850 believe we're heading into a time where candidates 00:02:58.930 --> 00:03:02.390 almost will start questioning employers in why 00:03:02.540 --> 00:03:06.294 they're assessing their potential based on a piece of paper. I 00:03:06.332 --> 00:03:09.974 believe we're almost there. Where? Well, the CV is, for most employers 00:03:10.022 --> 00:03:13.382 now, even ancient, but it's still used, right. It's a traditional 00:03:13.446 --> 00:03:16.842 hiring tactic, but in a very near 00:03:16.896 --> 00:03:20.526 future, candidates will start questioning, how is this even 00:03:20.628 --> 00:03:24.014 relevant to assessing my readiness, my potential and 00:03:24.052 --> 00:03:27.822 my transferable skills? So everything 00:03:27.876 --> 00:03:31.486 is beyond the resume? Everything is beyond the CV. The 00:03:31.508 --> 00:03:35.346 person, the potential the people is beyond the CV. So 00:03:35.528 --> 00:03:39.266 it's just an easy way for employers to weed out 00:03:39.368 --> 00:03:42.898 what's not relevant to them and it holds a lot of 00:03:42.984 --> 00:03:46.742 bias into the process. Don't you find 00:03:46.796 --> 00:03:49.874 that many traditional hiring 00:03:49.922 --> 00:03:53.286 managers, employers, they've got this kind 00:03:53.308 --> 00:03:57.126 of scared they're scared, aren't they? They start twitching if you say 00:03:57.148 --> 00:04:00.954 we can't have a CV. And they go how can I find out about people 00:04:00.992 --> 00:04:04.410 if I don't have their CV? Minds are blown. Minds are blown. 00:04:05.070 --> 00:04:08.554 I'm here to tell you there's never been a time where there's more 00:04:08.592 --> 00:04:11.998 tools, more tech, more solutions, more everything 00:04:12.164 --> 00:04:15.774 to assess potential as early as possible in the 00:04:15.812 --> 00:04:19.534 hiring funnel. And for me, Joanne, it all 00:04:19.572 --> 00:04:23.410 comes down to if you're not consciously including, 00:04:23.830 --> 00:04:27.374 you are most likely unconsciously excluding. 00:04:27.502 --> 00:04:31.282 That's definitely one of my sayings. I've used that. So yeah, it's so true. 00:04:31.416 --> 00:04:35.122 There's so very few people building that in to their 00:04:35.176 --> 00:04:38.866 talent attraction or talent acquisition strategy or hiring 00:04:38.898 --> 00:04:42.594 strategy. It's still just a saying, it's a good quote on the fridge. 00:04:42.722 --> 00:04:46.534 But we're here to say you have to consciously build it 00:04:46.572 --> 00:04:50.330 in to your tech stack or your strategy or anything 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:54.298 in order when you go to find talents, it has to be built in, 00:04:54.384 --> 00:04:57.610 otherwise you are most likely excluding 00:04:58.110 --> 00:05:01.742 are organisations. This is a sporting analogy. Are they match fit 00:05:01.796 --> 00:05:05.626 for hiring? Because I see people talking about diverse 00:05:05.658 --> 00:05:09.358 hiring, inclusive hiring, whatever buzzword they want to 00:05:09.364 --> 00:05:12.738 use to make them sound kind of contemporary and on the 00:05:12.744 --> 00:05:15.300 mark. But I always wonder 00:05:16.310 --> 00:05:19.778 if the candidate experience and the employee experience 00:05:19.944 --> 00:05:23.346 they're selling is reality or a dream or 00:05:23.368 --> 00:05:26.974 vapour. Right? Absolutely. It's most likely 00:05:27.022 --> 00:05:30.806 buzzwords. Right. We have to start somewhere. I believe everything starts with 00:05:30.828 --> 00:05:34.406 buzwords but I mean, we have the 00:05:34.428 --> 00:05:37.430 knowledge anything at our 00:05:37.580 --> 00:05:40.906 fingertips, we can't just rely on 00:05:40.928 --> 00:05:44.522 buzwords or quotes anymore. We have to start acting. And 00:05:44.576 --> 00:05:47.980 as beautiful as our ta community is, we're good at talking. 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:51.966 That's where I sort know introduced myself with I walk the 00:05:51.988 --> 00:05:55.486 talk. So why we built that way five years ago was 00:05:55.588 --> 00:05:59.034 to make sure that there are tools 00:05:59.162 --> 00:06:02.766 harnessing all the potential in diversity on social media. Because 00:06:02.788 --> 00:06:06.514 there's over 5 billion people, every person under the sun 00:06:06.552 --> 00:06:10.274 is on social media potentially. And there's ways where 00:06:10.312 --> 00:06:14.018 you have to work in order to keep up 00:06:14.104 --> 00:06:17.922 with the policies on some, to actively include 00:06:17.986 --> 00:06:21.762 and not target anyone on gender or age or ethnicity 00:06:21.826 --> 00:06:25.586 or all these factors that might come from an idea, from an hiring 00:06:25.618 --> 00:06:29.066 manager. Right? So we built that way to have an 00:06:29.088 --> 00:06:32.762 automated suite powered by AI to really go out and find 00:06:32.816 --> 00:06:36.646 potential on social media and make sure the candid experience is walking 00:06:36.678 --> 00:06:38.620 the talk. In terms of 00:06:40.690 --> 00:06:43.520 the best shopping experience you've ever had online, 00:06:44.290 --> 00:06:48.046 designing your dream car or just ordering your 00:06:48.068 --> 00:06:51.742 foods for the grocery store or whatever piece of clothing you might 00:06:51.796 --> 00:06:55.474 order that, but better, more sophisticated and more personalised should 00:06:55.512 --> 00:06:59.358 be your hiring experience as well. So that's 00:06:59.374 --> 00:07:03.138 the reason why we did it. And so far the most innovative and most 00:07:03.224 --> 00:07:07.046 thought provoking and forward TA teams are using these kind 00:07:07.068 --> 00:07:10.790 of tools because they know if they're not consciously 00:07:11.130 --> 00:07:14.326 include, they are excluding in somewhere in the 00:07:14.348 --> 00:07:17.942 journey. And I believe well, some 00:07:17.996 --> 00:07:21.514 say, I say 90% of your hiring success is 00:07:21.552 --> 00:07:24.746 determined at the first 10% of the 00:07:24.768 --> 00:07:27.914 journey. So what you do in the first process, when you go 00:07:27.952 --> 00:07:31.754 broad, when you go to find your audience and you start nudging 00:07:31.802 --> 00:07:35.214 and attracting and building this storytelling experience for them, 00:07:35.412 --> 00:07:38.766 that's where you can improve for potential and 00:07:38.788 --> 00:07:42.526 diversity in the very first steps. And then, yes, there should be 00:07:42.548 --> 00:07:45.986 automated assessments, right? There should be automated testing, there should be all these 00:07:46.088 --> 00:07:49.634 features that helps both the hiring teams and the 00:07:49.672 --> 00:07:53.474 candidate experience, right? So 00:07:53.672 --> 00:07:55.910 why I'm on the podcast, Joe, 00:07:58.410 --> 00:08:02.150 it's everything that we do, it's everything that I believe in and for myself. 00:08:02.300 --> 00:08:05.574 I know we touched upon where I shared. I 00:08:05.612 --> 00:08:09.306 have a one year long gap in my CV or 00:08:09.328 --> 00:08:12.902 resume from a trauma, a really troubling trauma 00:08:12.966 --> 00:08:16.700 where I had to be off work, right? And 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:21.018 these traditional hiring methods would never hire me. And here I 00:08:21.024 --> 00:08:24.638 am, the CMO of my dream company that we started five years ago. 00:08:24.804 --> 00:08:28.298 I would never been hired if I were to be judged 00:08:28.474 --> 00:08:31.360 by a recruiter from my cover letter because 00:08:32.450 --> 00:08:36.146 it's not saying anything about my readiness or my potential or what 00:08:36.168 --> 00:08:39.646 I bring to the table in terms of transferable skills, et 00:08:39.678 --> 00:08:43.042 cetera. So to answer your question, what's behind the 00:08:43.096 --> 00:08:45.570 resume? Everything potential. 00:08:47.110 --> 00:08:50.566 So we know that the talent attraction part of the 00:08:50.588 --> 00:08:54.054 story starts way before we go to 00:08:54.092 --> 00:08:57.714 market with a campaign. If you're 00:08:57.762 --> 00:09:00.806 not in Ta, you're not in recruitment, talent acquisition, 00:09:00.998 --> 00:09:04.822 EVP, employer branding, all this value proposition 00:09:04.886 --> 00:09:08.602 stuff all around the recruitment marketing element. It's got to start way 00:09:08.656 --> 00:09:12.410 before and be that authentic thread through the organisation. 00:09:12.490 --> 00:09:16.186 So I often find that organisations are trying to jump to the hiring 00:09:16.218 --> 00:09:19.834 phase without doing the heavy 00:09:19.882 --> 00:09:23.166 lift on the. But on the contrary, a lot of 00:09:23.188 --> 00:09:26.914 teams, they stay stuck and paralysed in the 00:09:26.952 --> 00:09:30.510 work of the EVP or the career page or the value proposition 00:09:30.590 --> 00:09:34.322 or the communication versus not a lot of people have the 00:09:34.376 --> 00:09:38.166 distribution, the actual strategy. How do 00:09:38.188 --> 00:09:41.462 you take your fabulous EVP to the 00:09:41.516 --> 00:09:44.802 phones, the hands of the most desired 00:09:44.866 --> 00:09:48.658 candidates that you want to approach? Not a lot of teams 00:09:48.834 --> 00:09:52.346 put the investment or the energy into the 00:09:52.368 --> 00:09:55.894 distribution of that. They just hope that people will find their EVP 00:09:56.022 --> 00:09:59.290 or find their employer branding. So even if you have the most 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:03.118 inclusive promise as an employer, how do you 00:10:03.124 --> 00:10:06.682 have the most inclusive and thought through strategy 00:10:06.826 --> 00:10:10.410 to go and approach them? And approaching 00:10:10.490 --> 00:10:14.194 means approaching mostly like passive candidates, hard 00:10:14.232 --> 00:10:17.378 to reach talents. Talents that most likely are already 00:10:17.544 --> 00:10:21.234 fully employed, working doing what they 00:10:21.272 --> 00:10:25.006 love. So you now have to have a strategy that's 00:10:25.038 --> 00:10:28.370 really built into providing your lovely EVP 00:10:28.810 --> 00:10:32.614 into the hands of their phones, where they spend over three 4 00:10:32.652 --> 00:10:36.374 hours a day scrolling through social media. And it has to be an experience 00:10:36.492 --> 00:10:40.120 that's built for that specific social media channels that they're in, 00:10:40.650 --> 00:10:44.074 all while being as inclusive as they want it with their 00:10:44.112 --> 00:10:47.706 EVP. So you see, there's a lot of like 00:10:47.808 --> 00:10:51.546 as to your point, a lot of teams spend their time figuring out 00:10:51.568 --> 00:10:55.354 the EVP, but the other part they just jump 00:10:55.402 --> 00:10:58.366 straight into the hiring and not a lot of companies spend the time on the 00:10:58.388 --> 00:11:02.126 distribution. How do we go to market? How do we make 00:11:02.148 --> 00:11:05.938 sure that we've opened the funnel for as many 00:11:06.024 --> 00:11:09.794 talents as possible? Because here's the facts. You 00:11:09.832 --> 00:11:13.342 need to go broad in order to attract diverse talent 00:11:13.486 --> 00:11:16.758 and the best talent from there, 00:11:16.924 --> 00:11:20.642 volumes of candidates will still be relevant talents 00:11:20.706 --> 00:11:24.150 if you automate the assessment and the testing and 00:11:24.220 --> 00:11:27.766 everything screening based that you might have. But you 00:11:27.788 --> 00:11:31.334 can't say that you have an inclusive hiring if you just go to a selected 00:11:31.382 --> 00:11:35.114 network or a close group or your best 00:11:35.152 --> 00:11:39.002 friend, or your male friend. 00:11:39.136 --> 00:11:42.974 That usually happens. So that's why I 00:11:43.012 --> 00:11:46.526 really challenge ta teams to look into how do you go to 00:11:46.548 --> 00:11:49.790 market and stay consciously inclusive. 00:11:52.370 --> 00:11:56.194 I'm just trying to piece together what you're saying here. So help me out. 00:11:56.232 --> 00:11:59.230 So are we talking about a broad 00:11:59.310 --> 00:12:02.766 spectrum of trying to build our candidate 00:12:02.798 --> 00:12:06.600 pool our talent pipeline from a broader spectrum as possible 00:12:06.970 --> 00:12:10.742 around a broad demographic and skill set and everything else, 00:12:10.876 --> 00:12:14.626 and then being able to bring those into your funnel, your pipeline 00:12:14.818 --> 00:12:18.262 and use automation to sift 00:12:18.326 --> 00:12:22.074 preselect on competency and capability and 00:12:22.112 --> 00:12:25.754 adaptability and change all these sort of things. Yes, the hiring team 00:12:25.792 --> 00:12:29.094 themselves are just getting a presifted diverse 00:12:29.142 --> 00:12:32.798 pool. Exactly that. Exactly that. You won't get to a 00:12:32.804 --> 00:12:36.366 presifted diverse, relevant pool if you don't open the 00:12:36.388 --> 00:12:40.154 funnel from the beginning. And opening the funnel is utilising 00:12:40.202 --> 00:12:43.940 tech because there's the heavy lifting right there's where 00:12:44.390 --> 00:12:48.034 automation really comes in. So what I'm saying is 00:12:48.152 --> 00:12:52.002 there's no other platform in the world where over 00:12:52.056 --> 00:12:55.394 5 billion people spend more time than they do on 00:12:55.432 --> 00:12:59.174 eating every day. The general user on 00:12:59.212 --> 00:13:02.582 social media spends social media almost like they spend almost 00:13:02.636 --> 00:13:06.454 2.5 hours a day. And that is increasing. Like, you know, 00:13:06.492 --> 00:13:10.234 just cheque your settings, right? That is increasing. So what I say is 00:13:10.272 --> 00:13:14.042 you have to go where the candidates spend their time, where they live 00:13:14.096 --> 00:13:17.642 their lives, right? You have to then make sure you 00:13:17.696 --> 00:13:21.482 are distributing a strategy that builds a storytelling experience 00:13:21.616 --> 00:13:25.422 based on your EVP, on your employer brand, on all these value 00:13:25.476 --> 00:13:29.322 propositions that are as inclusive as you say. Meaning 00:13:29.466 --> 00:13:33.154 you will then only attract and assess the most relevant talents because 00:13:33.192 --> 00:13:36.878 they've been appealed and targeted based on potential and readiness. 00:13:36.974 --> 00:13:40.706 And your arguments that are 00:13:40.728 --> 00:13:44.530 selling to them. Because there's always 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:47.686 like, I love this discussion, but people always come back to it, say, I just 00:13:47.708 --> 00:13:50.760 want one great candidate. Right. 00:13:51.690 --> 00:13:54.774 How with one great candidate would you know, you've opened the pool for 00:13:54.812 --> 00:13:57.914 potential, for inclusion, for diversity. For 00:13:57.952 --> 00:14:01.786 diversity. You wouldn't. What you're saying to 00:14:01.808 --> 00:14:05.594 me is I want an easy life. Sure. Easy life means doing 00:14:05.632 --> 00:14:08.540 the right thing, consciously working into 00:14:08.910 --> 00:14:12.458 working inclusive strategies into your method, 00:14:12.554 --> 00:14:15.902 but utilising the tech then to do the heavy lifting. So you sit 00:14:15.956 --> 00:14:19.130 then with that relevant social talent pools 00:14:19.210 --> 00:14:22.518 based on relevance, potential, readiness, 00:14:22.714 --> 00:14:26.498 and with the most diverse teams you could ever imagine. And from there 00:14:26.584 --> 00:14:28.500 you could start assessing. Right. 00:14:32.390 --> 00:14:36.120 This is kind of like headhunting on 00:14:37.450 --> 00:14:41.106 a mega enormous scale. So you've 00:14:41.138 --> 00:14:44.918 got a pool of potentially thousands of people or more 00:14:45.084 --> 00:14:48.678 being spear fishing them. So you're targeting them directly 00:14:48.774 --> 00:14:50.460 on mass. Yes. 00:14:53.150 --> 00:14:56.998 You're not suggesting cast a broad net everywhere. What you're 00:14:57.014 --> 00:14:59.900 saying is you're casting your net specifically for 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:03.918 competency and skills. So it is spear phishing, but on a 00:15:03.924 --> 00:15:07.486 mega scale. Yeah. And we work with behavioural targeting, so 00:15:07.508 --> 00:15:09.920 it's still targeted. But then 00:15:10.850 --> 00:15:14.530 how algorithms work is that they have to learn 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:18.020 from a lot of data initially. Right. And 00:15:18.630 --> 00:15:22.338 with that you can then teach algorithm to work towards 00:15:22.424 --> 00:15:25.926 then specific data points that are building for an 00:15:25.948 --> 00:15:29.670 inclusive hiring strategy or not segmenting anyone 00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:33.410 on gender or ethnicity or all these bias factors. 00:15:33.490 --> 00:15:36.870 So it's simply making 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:40.746 sure you walk the talk in your ta setup as 00:15:40.768 --> 00:15:44.586 well. Like, everything into your tech stack should walk the 00:15:44.608 --> 00:15:48.234 talk and you have to make sure it does. Can't just be the 00:15:48.272 --> 00:15:51.662 quote you're throwing at your next RL 100 talk. 00:15:51.716 --> 00:15:55.360 Right. You have to walk the talk and 00:15:55.970 --> 00:15:57.520 look into your own process. 00:16:01.410 --> 00:16:04.866 How long does the candidate stay passive in the 00:16:04.888 --> 00:16:08.706 process? Until they're kind of triggered into a 00:16:08.728 --> 00:16:12.514 kind of yes, this person meets our primary criteria, then we'll do some 00:16:12.552 --> 00:16:15.974 outreach so they can be passive in this process for 00:16:16.012 --> 00:16:19.558 years. Drop into it. This is such an interesting 00:16:19.644 --> 00:16:23.318 question. Right. So there's a consensus in the market, like in the 00:16:23.324 --> 00:16:26.834 hiring industry, that we've 00:16:26.882 --> 00:16:30.670 always talked about a passive and an active market. Right. People active 00:16:30.690 --> 00:16:34.026 looking for a job when they're in between jobs. Right. And people who happen to 00:16:34.048 --> 00:16:37.626 be employed. But I like to look at 00:16:37.648 --> 00:16:40.814 it as to your point, as how I incorporate your 00:16:40.852 --> 00:16:44.350 question. There's a window of opportunity where 00:16:44.420 --> 00:16:48.074 someone is about to act if we go back to e commerce 00:16:48.122 --> 00:16:51.850 and shopping tactics online. Right. I'm a passive 00:16:51.930 --> 00:16:55.738 customer always. I have money, I'm on social media, I 00:16:55.764 --> 00:16:59.506 like clothes. Let's make it easy. Right? I'm not in the look for 00:16:59.528 --> 00:17:03.186 anything. Yeah, you too. Exactly. Who isn't? Jack Joe? Who 00:17:03.208 --> 00:17:06.854 isn't? I'm not in the look for anything. Let's just make it super 00:17:06.892 --> 00:17:10.514 easy. It's been black month. Black Friday. I've 00:17:10.562 --> 00:17:14.406 done all my shopping. I'm satisfied. But I'm still a 00:17:14.428 --> 00:17:18.138 passive customer online, living my life on 00:17:18.144 --> 00:17:21.180 social media, right? If I stumble across 00:17:21.790 --> 00:17:25.398 really targeted ads with very personalised messages, 00:17:25.494 --> 00:17:28.774 discount codes, anything, and these ads, 00:17:28.822 --> 00:17:32.518 iterate they go after me on Instagram, then when I'm 00:17:32.534 --> 00:17:36.046 on TikTok, I get a new one. When I'm on LinkedIn, I get three other 00:17:36.068 --> 00:17:39.834 ones. When know, jumping into could be Twitch 00:17:39.882 --> 00:17:43.050 or whatever platform that might be. I have a designed 00:17:43.130 --> 00:17:46.914 experience to sort of approach me with a product, right? 00:17:46.952 --> 00:17:50.622 In this case, might be a bag. I like bags, for instance. 00:17:50.686 --> 00:17:54.258 Let's make it super easy. So there's a window of opportunity 00:17:54.424 --> 00:17:57.960 where I've been nudged enough times. 00:17:58.570 --> 00:18:02.262 There's not a golden number, but a lot of people say there should be seven 00:18:02.396 --> 00:18:06.198 touch points in order to make an action, right? So 00:18:06.364 --> 00:18:10.070 in the window of time where I turn active, 00:18:10.230 --> 00:18:14.022 that's where I believe you have to make sure you have a process that's 00:18:14.086 --> 00:18:17.898 so sophisticated, that actually capitalises on 00:18:17.904 --> 00:18:21.226 my window of opportunity when I'm active. So it means 00:18:21.408 --> 00:18:25.166 I need to be buying this bag with one click. I have 00:18:25.188 --> 00:18:29.006 to feel super secure. I have to trust the tech. I have 00:18:29.028 --> 00:18:32.190 to make sure it's not a scam site, it's not a scam 00:18:32.770 --> 00:18:36.034 company taking my card details. I have to feel super 00:18:36.072 --> 00:18:39.390 trusted. And it should be the smoothest, easiest 00:18:39.470 --> 00:18:43.074 confirming experience ever. Like, yes, sir, you're doing the right thing. 00:18:43.192 --> 00:18:46.806 The bag is coming in a day. One click, we have all the 00:18:46.828 --> 00:18:50.470 information that we need. And the same goes for 00:18:50.540 --> 00:18:54.214 applying for a job. There's a window of opportunity. 00:18:54.332 --> 00:18:58.090 And this window of opportunity can increase by building 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.482 these personalised storytelling experiences over social media 00:19:01.536 --> 00:19:04.486 platforms, making me turning me into an active 00:19:04.518 --> 00:19:08.294 candidate once I've been presented 00:19:08.342 --> 00:19:12.174 with these offers over time. So to your point, yes, it can 00:19:12.212 --> 00:19:15.534 take over six months. We have a process that makes 00:19:15.572 --> 00:19:19.214 sure our customers, they hire everything from 00:19:19.252 --> 00:19:22.794 CEOs down to customer service personnel or whatever, like 00:19:22.852 --> 00:19:26.114 all different types of roles. And it takes 00:19:26.232 --> 00:19:29.406 forever for some because they're so passive. Could be eye 00:19:29.438 --> 00:19:33.118 doctors or pharmacists, right? They're 00:19:33.134 --> 00:19:36.514 so passive in terms of looking for job, but they're very active in terms of 00:19:36.552 --> 00:19:40.006 working, so they're not a lot of time approaching them, right? They might be on 00:19:40.028 --> 00:19:43.606 social media just when they're taking a coffee. Then the 00:19:43.628 --> 00:19:47.446 timing needs to be there. The sophisticated strategy needs to be there. So 00:19:47.468 --> 00:19:50.906 I like to look at it as a window of time 00:19:51.088 --> 00:19:54.458 when someone turn active. You have to make sure your 00:19:54.544 --> 00:19:57.770 software works for you to capitalise on this 00:19:57.840 --> 00:20:01.566 very rare moment. I 00:20:01.588 --> 00:20:05.386 love that idea. I'm with you on bags, but I'm 00:20:05.418 --> 00:20:08.574 probably almost active on buying an air 00:20:08.612 --> 00:20:12.286 fryer everywhere I go. I 00:20:12.308 --> 00:20:15.060 bet you every social media channel knows this. 00:20:16.310 --> 00:20:19.566 You're 80% there. And I'm being honed 00:20:19.598 --> 00:20:23.422 into a certain brand, a certain price range, 00:20:23.566 --> 00:20:27.414 certain feature set, because I can feel that I've inquired and I've done some 00:20:27.452 --> 00:20:31.206 research and I'm looking at certain things. So this 00:20:31.228 --> 00:20:34.978 is what you're saying, really is it's building up a behavioural pattern 00:20:35.154 --> 00:20:38.360 of what has interested me, what hasn't interested me, 00:20:38.970 --> 00:20:42.714 where I go, it indicates my abilities and my 00:20:42.752 --> 00:20:46.234 people I hang out with. So you're building up a picture of me to know 00:20:46.272 --> 00:20:50.074 that this particular air fryer on Black Friday, and you 00:20:50.112 --> 00:20:53.854 probably know that 50 pounds off is my kind of deal 00:20:53.972 --> 00:20:57.726 threshold. Yes. And then I'm going to click on it and then, as you 00:20:57.748 --> 00:21:01.210 say, it has to happen immediately. Immediately, 00:21:01.290 --> 00:21:05.042 yes. It has to be a trusted process. Super easy, one 00:21:05.096 --> 00:21:08.894 click and it should be. Imagine 00:21:08.942 --> 00:21:12.402 the business of an e commerce, not converting those 00:21:12.456 --> 00:21:15.974 Joes like yourself actually going to market for that air 00:21:16.012 --> 00:21:19.734 fryer. Imagine that business loss. And the same goes 00:21:19.772 --> 00:21:23.622 for ta teams. For instance, look at the spill happening 00:21:23.676 --> 00:21:27.430 on every career page today. Every ta team out there 00:21:27.500 --> 00:21:30.954 invests a lot of money in driving traffic to their career page. 00:21:31.152 --> 00:21:34.966 Nothing new. Right. What do you think is the average conversion rate on a career 00:21:34.998 --> 00:21:38.746 page today? I guess it was pretty low because people are 00:21:38.768 --> 00:21:42.122 just window shopping, passively checking the market out. 00:21:42.256 --> 00:21:45.782 Yes. But some teams are like, I wouldn't, 00:21:45.926 --> 00:21:49.386 so I argue there's not a lot of passive 00:21:49.418 --> 00:21:53.178 candidates just surfing around, a lot of clicks, a 00:21:53.204 --> 00:21:56.706 lot of steps down to your specific career page. 00:21:56.888 --> 00:22:00.158 It's a big ask. It's a big ask for a pharmaceutical 00:22:00.254 --> 00:22:03.826 working full time, super stressed, having 00:22:03.928 --> 00:22:07.346 everything to do by themselves. Right. So not a lot 00:22:07.368 --> 00:22:11.094 of passive candidates stumble across a career page because 00:22:11.132 --> 00:22:14.198 that's not like your SEO isn't that good? I would just shout. You got to 00:22:14.204 --> 00:22:17.366 kind of have a motivation. You're disgruntled, you're at 00:22:17.388 --> 00:22:20.700 risk, something's happened. Exactly. 00:22:21.230 --> 00:22:24.874 There's people naturally looking for there's some 00:22:24.912 --> 00:22:28.742 percentage going into career pages, but that's not the majority. The majority 00:22:28.806 --> 00:22:32.382 would mainly spend their time on social media or anything 00:22:32.436 --> 00:22:36.094 else on their phones. Right. But so the ones that 00:22:36.132 --> 00:22:39.358 actually do come to the career page have 00:22:39.524 --> 00:22:43.306 often committed to something. There's often some interest there. 00:22:43.348 --> 00:22:46.866 Once you actually come into a career page, that means 00:22:47.048 --> 00:22:50.722 losing out. On an average, 98% 00:22:50.776 --> 00:22:54.514 of the traffic is like throwing fishnets in the 00:22:54.552 --> 00:22:58.262 water and not picking up the fish. And this happens for almost all 00:22:58.316 --> 00:23:02.006 ta teams and hiring teams out there. And again, how is this 00:23:02.028 --> 00:23:05.666 building upon to your inclusive, diverse talent 00:23:05.698 --> 00:23:09.206 pools? How is this building for the canned experience? It's not. It's 00:23:09.238 --> 00:23:12.986 just repelling thousands and 00:23:13.008 --> 00:23:16.714 thousands and thousands of people every day. Hundreds, if you're an 00:23:16.752 --> 00:23:20.054 average company. But this loop is just 00:23:20.112 --> 00:23:23.360 where I get 00:23:23.890 --> 00:23:27.626 fascinated of how this can still be going on when there's 00:23:27.658 --> 00:23:31.486 so much knowledge and there's so much you don't even 00:23:31.508 --> 00:23:35.314 have to be using social media yourself to know that there's a 00:23:35.352 --> 00:23:38.894 certain expectation from a persona, a user 00:23:38.942 --> 00:23:42.786 today. And, Joe, you're the same persona buying the airfire as 00:23:42.808 --> 00:23:46.626 you would be applying for a job that Adway would promote. Right. 00:23:46.808 --> 00:23:49.734 You're still the same. Your behaviour is still the same. You have the same 00:23:49.772 --> 00:23:53.526 expectations. You go into social media, you go online, you have an 00:23:53.548 --> 00:23:56.774 expectation of your user experience that has to be 00:23:56.812 --> 00:24:00.118 met. Otherwise you would never buy the air fryer. 00:24:00.294 --> 00:24:04.122 You expect Amazon checkout or you expect easy 00:24:04.176 --> 00:24:07.420 buy or you expect klarna easy checkout or whatever. 00:24:08.030 --> 00:24:11.406 And the same persona is expecting a super easy 00:24:11.588 --> 00:24:15.406 application journey. So as 00:24:15.428 --> 00:24:19.262 a passive candidate, I'm browsing minded my own business 00:24:19.316 --> 00:24:22.590 and I would start seeing targeted 00:24:23.750 --> 00:24:27.554 content around a brand, around a 00:24:27.592 --> 00:24:31.090 story the brand's telling to lure me in, to 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:35.074 create a brand association. This brand is good. I love this 00:24:35.112 --> 00:24:38.886 brand in my head. And then they're going to kind 00:24:38.908 --> 00:24:42.726 of hit me with a why don't you find out more about us? Is that 00:24:42.748 --> 00:24:46.466