WEBVTT 00:00:00.650 --> 00:00:04.494 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for 00:00:04.532 --> 00:00:08.266 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, 00:00:08.378 --> 00:00:11.918 I've interviewed a number of amazing people have simply had a 00:00:11.924 --> 00:00:15.514 conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging 00:00:15.642 --> 00:00:19.390 and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 00:00:20.210 --> 00:00:23.518 If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a 00:00:23.524 --> 00:00:24.320 line to 00:00:24.970 --> 00:00:27.622 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, 00:00:27.676 --> 00:00:31.458 that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co 00:00:31.458 --> 00:00:35.206 dot uk. You can catch up with all 00:00:35.228 --> 00:00:38.934 of the previous shows on itunes, Spotify and the usual places. 00:00:38.982 --> 00:00:42.698 So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf 00:00:42.704 --> 00:00:45.180 and let's get going. Today 00:00:46.270 --> 00:00:49.968 is Episode 90 with the title"Conversations 00:00:49.968 --> 00:00:53.070 Beyond Borders"", and I 00:00:53.730 --> 00:00:56.542 have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Kaumudi, Kaumudi 00:00:56.676 --> 00:01:00.430 Goda, or KG, to her friends and associates. 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:03.854 KG is a Leadership Consultant, Executive 00:01:03.902 --> 00:01:05.842 Coach and DEIB Strategist. 00:01:08.710 --> 00:01:12.354 When I asked KG to describe her superpower, she 00:01:12.392 --> 00:01:16.214 said it's her cross siloed perspective, passion for 00:01:16.252 --> 00:01:19.574 fact based big picture thinking and a commitment to 00:01:19.612 --> 00:01:23.302 ethical, compassionate business. Hello, 00:01:23.356 --> 00:01:27.106 Kg, welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. 00:01:27.138 --> 00:01:30.538 Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. So you're in 00:01:30.544 --> 00:01:33.962 Amsterdam at the moment and it's a bit cold, damp and 00:01:34.096 --> 00:01:37.802 wet over there. Is it? Yeah, the temperatures plunged this past 00:01:37.856 --> 00:01:41.302 week, so we're headed for a rather frosty 00:01:41.366 --> 00:01:44.998 winter, looks like, here. Yeah, I guess it is the 1 00:01:45.024 --> 00:01:48.814 December, so, yeah, I guess we've got colder weather to come, 00:01:48.852 --> 00:01:51.802 but, yeah, as long as we're wrapped up nice and warm in our own homes, 00:01:51.866 --> 00:01:55.570 that's all that matters right now. Absolutely. KG 00:01:55.990 --> 00:01:59.746 conversations beyond borders. Tell me more about that. 00:01:59.928 --> 00:02:03.326 I loved when you picked that title for our conversation. 00:02:03.518 --> 00:02:07.014 Conversation is very important to me. I call my business 00:02:07.132 --> 00:02:10.934 the Human Conversation because I think if we can all 00:02:10.972 --> 00:02:14.642 rise above our little differences and have conversations 00:02:14.706 --> 00:02:18.314 at a human level, we'd definitely be able to build a better 00:02:18.352 --> 00:02:21.814 future for all of us together. And so Conversations Beyond 00:02:21.862 --> 00:02:25.114 Borders seems perfect for our conversation this 00:02:25.152 --> 00:02:28.986 morning. Yeah, I 00:02:29.008 --> 00:02:32.782 think that's a good starting point, isn't it? Because 00:02:32.916 --> 00:02:36.558 often, and we look at the world around us at the 00:02:36.564 --> 00:02:40.126 moment where there are conflicts and 00:02:40.228 --> 00:02:43.806 tragedies happening, wars, conflicts, wherever you want to 00:02:43.828 --> 00:02:47.362 describe them, and most of them are where conversations break 00:02:47.416 --> 00:02:50.974 down. And it's really, really important that we recognise 00:02:51.022 --> 00:02:54.594 how we don't always have to be 00:02:54.632 --> 00:02:57.910 right. Not being right is really important and 00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:01.526 understanding perspectives. So for me, that's the basis of 00:03:01.548 --> 00:03:05.078 conversation. So what do you talk about in those sort of 00:03:05.084 --> 00:03:08.182 terms? My own 00:03:08.236 --> 00:03:12.086 sensitivity and my lens is informed by the fact that I've 00:03:12.118 --> 00:03:15.866 always felt like I don't really fit in. I remember 00:03:15.968 --> 00:03:19.606 I felt like I didn't fit in as a young girl growing 00:03:19.638 --> 00:03:23.386 up in a rather patriarchal culture 00:03:23.498 --> 00:03:27.120 in South India. I didn't feel like I fit in 00:03:27.650 --> 00:03:31.406 as a young professional, pretty new in 00:03:31.508 --> 00:03:35.122 New York City, Manhattan. I spent a decade there and I 00:03:35.176 --> 00:03:38.562 think as I went through life, my 00:03:38.616 --> 00:03:42.354 realisation was. All of us are seeking that sense 00:03:42.392 --> 00:03:45.922 of community, that sense of validation, wanting 00:03:45.986 --> 00:03:49.010 to feel seen, heard, understood, 00:03:49.090 --> 00:03:52.310 accepted. That's a universal human 00:03:52.460 --> 00:03:56.022 emotion. But all of us are mired in our 00:03:56.076 --> 00:03:59.270 own little worries, 00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:04.086 feeling alone and wanting to connect and yet failing to realise 00:04:04.198 --> 00:04:07.626 everyone else is likely feeling the same. We all feel like we are 00:04:07.648 --> 00:04:10.640 islands, maroon. And if we could 00:04:11.730 --> 00:04:15.082 embrace our own positions in those borders, 00:04:15.146 --> 00:04:18.638 recognise that maybe standing, feeling like we're standing outside, 00:04:18.724 --> 00:04:22.390 looking in, everyone else is in the same spot, 00:04:22.490 --> 00:04:26.082 it might make it easier to really appreciate somebody 00:04:26.136 --> 00:04:29.614 else's perspective, somebody else's viewpoint, and accept 00:04:29.662 --> 00:04:33.406 that my journey might be different from yours. But you're equally 00:04:33.518 --> 00:04:36.994 valid and entitled to having your opinions, 00:04:37.122 --> 00:04:40.722 having your life experiences, informing your worldviews, 00:04:40.786 --> 00:04:44.578 just as I am entitled to mine. That space of patience, 00:04:44.674 --> 00:04:48.358 compassion, curiosity that comes, I think, 00:04:48.524 --> 00:04:51.994 both with willingness to accept it, but also maybe 00:04:52.112 --> 00:04:55.610 time and patience with that. I certainly still 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:59.482 feel I'm on that journey, but I'm willing to embrace it and I invite everyone 00:04:59.536 --> 00:05:03.146 else to do so as well. Yeah, that's really important. And I think what you're 00:05:03.178 --> 00:05:06.670 saying there is we have to avoid the temptation 00:05:07.090 --> 00:05:10.926 to want to be right, to speak through our own lens, to speak through 00:05:10.948 --> 00:05:14.450 our own perspective. As the only thought, 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:18.306 I think is the trouble with opinions is 00:05:18.328 --> 00:05:21.954 they are often based on our own facts, our own view of the world, 00:05:21.992 --> 00:05:25.778 and not necessarily reflective of other facts. Which is 00:05:25.784 --> 00:05:29.014 why we know diversity is important, diversity of voice is important in 00:05:29.052 --> 00:05:32.738 organisations and society to get more than one truth. Because there's 00:05:32.754 --> 00:05:36.406 obviously my perspective, your perspective and the shared perspective of a 00:05:36.428 --> 00:05:40.278 greater view of something. But 00:05:40.364 --> 00:05:44.214 we get too hung up, though, don't we, on having to be right. Confirmation 00:05:44.262 --> 00:05:47.642 bias, I think, for want of a better way of describing it, as a human 00:05:47.696 --> 00:05:50.860 species, why would I want to be wrong all the time? 00:05:51.230 --> 00:05:54.990 It's a human trait to be right, isn't it? And I think 00:05:55.140 --> 00:05:58.974 we need all kinds of perspectives, all kinds of energies and 00:05:59.012 --> 00:06:02.506 visions. If I could pick an example of a 00:06:02.548 --> 00:06:05.858 team that's working together. We need 00:06:05.944 --> 00:06:09.214 visionary folks who have distinct 00:06:09.262 --> 00:06:12.914 ideas and assertively state them with clarity. We 00:06:12.952 --> 00:06:16.342 need that voice, but we also need folks who 00:06:16.396 --> 00:06:20.102 are quite strong in their own 00:06:20.156 --> 00:06:23.974 thoughts and voices, but are feeling ready 00:06:24.092 --> 00:06:27.846 to hold a space for more than one truth at 00:06:27.868 --> 00:06:31.514 the same time. And we need both those voices. In a company, you need 00:06:31.552 --> 00:06:34.742 that assertive, charismatic, extroverted 00:06:34.806 --> 00:06:38.490 promoter of the business idea, but you also need 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.230 folks who are collaborative, open to other ideas, 00:06:42.310 --> 00:06:45.950 willing to explore this might be true, but what else might be true? 00:06:46.020 --> 00:06:49.806 What are we not considering? What are we failing to consider when 00:06:49.828 --> 00:06:53.422 we say assertively, this is the direction we want to go? You need 00:06:53.556 --> 00:06:57.346 all those energies together in a team. It takes discipline and 00:06:57.368 --> 00:07:01.054 it takes commitment, but it also takes a great deal of self confidence 00:07:01.102 --> 00:07:04.674 to be holding that space of saying I am very 00:07:04.712 --> 00:07:08.262 sure about what I believe in, but I can also respect somebody 00:07:08.316 --> 00:07:11.766 else's beliefs and be willing to listen to it. It's not easy. I 00:07:11.788 --> 00:07:15.526 acknowledge that. It takes, I think, a lot 00:07:15.548 --> 00:07:18.360 of self confidence and patience and 00:07:19.530 --> 00:07:23.266 certainly experience. Yeah. 00:07:23.308 --> 00:07:26.810 I think often we find that leaders, 00:07:27.550 --> 00:07:31.070 managers, project leaders in organisations 00:07:31.730 --> 00:07:35.198 often lack what I would call cultural competency or 00:07:35.364 --> 00:07:38.560 cultural intelligence to be able to 00:07:39.170 --> 00:07:42.958 be competent in environments where they have a range of 00:07:42.964 --> 00:07:46.702 different views, different experiences, range of personality 00:07:46.766 --> 00:07:50.130 types, if you like. And often when we're trying to lead these teams, 00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:53.934 we don't truly understand each person's 00:07:53.982 --> 00:07:56.150 motivation, each person's 00:07:57.450 --> 00:08:00.806 communication style, each person's sort of the way they want to 00:08:00.828 --> 00:08:03.960 interact. And sometimes we treat people the same 00:08:04.330 --> 00:08:06.870 and miss the nuances of people's personalities. 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:11.386 Agree, John? And also, I think that in the 00:08:11.408 --> 00:08:15.222 corporate sector we tend to defy 00:08:15.366 --> 00:08:19.162 a certain personality type. The cult of personality, which 00:08:19.216 --> 00:08:22.794 is fairly prevalent in United States in the corporate 00:08:22.842 --> 00:08:26.426 world, there certainly has seemed to have spread 00:08:26.538 --> 00:08:29.758 in other parts of the world as well. I see that 00:08:29.924 --> 00:08:33.746 charismatic CEO type of a personality that's the one 00:08:33.768 --> 00:08:37.522 that's most recognised as leadership looks 00:08:37.576 --> 00:08:41.134 like that. I had a conversation with a quiet 00:08:41.262 --> 00:08:44.942 friend once and he told me kg, do you recognise 00:08:45.006 --> 00:08:48.818 what a disadvantage it is to be a soft spoken, 00:08:48.914 --> 00:08:52.502 introverted, shy person in the corporate world? You're simply not 00:08:52.556 --> 00:08:56.358 seen as leadership material. And what a blow that is 00:08:56.444 --> 00:08:59.990 to all of us that we cannot recognise 00:09:00.070 --> 00:09:02.010 leadership in all its forms. 00:09:04.510 --> 00:09:08.122 Being outspoken, outgoing for an introvert or 00:09:08.176 --> 00:09:11.866 even an ambivert, or someone who is not competent in speaking out can 00:09:11.888 --> 00:09:15.678 be very exhausting, can't it's? Almost inauthentic as 00:09:15.684 --> 00:09:19.066 well, because you're having to be the person you're not, you're covering, you're masking, you're 00:09:19.098 --> 00:09:22.606 pretending just to be heard. That's exhausting. Yes, 00:09:22.708 --> 00:09:26.130 it is. We shouldn't have to mask, we shouldn't have to code 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.826 switch. These are all terms that perhaps you and I are 00:09:29.848 --> 00:09:33.470 familiar with, but for those who are not familiar with it, masking 00:09:33.550 --> 00:09:37.234 is if I were to feel uncomfortable with 00:09:37.272 --> 00:09:40.934 being myself and I have to put up a front, behave in a certain 00:09:40.972 --> 00:09:44.514 way, change myself to fit into a workplace 00:09:44.562 --> 00:09:48.054 culture, that would be masking. And code switching is similarly, I 00:09:48.092 --> 00:09:51.786 speak differently. I communicate and hold myself out in a 00:09:51.808 --> 00:09:55.626 certain way because I feel speaking as myself, communicating what 00:09:55.648 --> 00:09:59.366 is naturally my style would not be acceptable. That's 00:09:59.398 --> 00:10:03.054 code switching as well. And we all do that. And we should 00:10:03.092 --> 00:10:06.766 be cognizant of the importance of creating spaces where none of 00:10:06.788 --> 00:10:09.310 us have to mask or code switch. 00:10:10.690 --> 00:10:14.498 Yeah, I mean, people are probably more familiar these days with the 00:10:14.504 --> 00:10:18.210 term or phrase bring your whole self to work and also 00:10:18.280 --> 00:10:21.726 psychological safety, which are kind of ways of creating 00:10:21.758 --> 00:10:25.366 environments where people don't have to mask, code switch or 00:10:25.388 --> 00:10:29.106 cover or hide who they are. So we're 00:10:29.138 --> 00:10:32.534 already trying to bring those senses of 00:10:32.572 --> 00:10:36.246 self into the workplace and allow people to be themselves more 00:10:36.268 --> 00:10:39.894 and more 100%. Psychological safety 00:10:39.942 --> 00:10:43.690 is absolutely the number one thing all of us need. 00:10:43.760 --> 00:10:47.174 Until I feel I am in a safe 00:10:47.222 --> 00:10:50.906 space, I'm not even able to be curious, to be a 00:10:50.928 --> 00:10:54.394 learner, to even bring my best to work, forget 00:10:54.442 --> 00:10:58.190 about feeling like I can trust my colleagues. That won't even 00:10:58.260 --> 00:11:02.046 be the second or third step. The first step is to 00:11:02.068 --> 00:11:05.106 feel safe. Then I can relax, then I can learn, then I can do my 00:11:05.128 --> 00:11:08.866 best, and then perhaps I'll consider connecting with other people. None of those 00:11:08.888 --> 00:11:11.860 will happen without psychological safety. You're absolutely right. 00:11:13.350 --> 00:11:16.040 You mentioned that you are 00:11:16.810 --> 00:11:20.626 based in North America for a while. You've lived 00:11:20.658 --> 00:11:24.166 in Singapore for a while, maybe you grew up in 00:11:24.188 --> 00:11:26.790 India. Now you're in Amsterdam and Netherlands. 00:11:27.930 --> 00:11:31.226 Tell us a bit about your career and how that's evolved over those years. 00:11:31.408 --> 00:11:34.806 That's a beautiful analogy right there. I think that's 00:11:34.998 --> 00:11:38.826 perhaps paralleled by my career as well. I've moved around a lot 00:11:38.928 --> 00:11:42.634 and that informs my lens. Similarly, in my career, 00:11:42.682 --> 00:11:46.334 I started out as a lawyer. I practised law in New York 00:11:46.372 --> 00:11:49.754 City for about seven years. And therefore that legal 00:11:49.802 --> 00:11:53.322 perspective, that risk assessment, that compliance 00:11:53.386 --> 00:11:57.042 with regulatory, the logic that all of us abide by 00:11:57.096 --> 00:12:00.754 certain laws is very central to how I 00:12:00.792 --> 00:12:04.434 look at solving problems in the workplace as well. And about seven 00:12:04.472 --> 00:12:08.134 years in Joanne, I realised I was that classic Indian kid. I 00:12:08.172 --> 00:12:11.974 was blinkers on. Grades were important, as is with 00:12:12.012 --> 00:12:15.746 a lot of children growing up in the Global South. Grades 00:12:15.778 --> 00:12:19.482 were important because your education is your passport to a better 00:12:19.536 --> 00:12:23.094 life, more secure food security, shelter, financial 00:12:23.142 --> 00:12:26.602 security. All of that comes with working hard and 00:12:26.736 --> 00:12:30.186 having access to better education. And that's what I focused on. 00:12:30.288 --> 00:12:33.902 And law seemed like a solid career. I 00:12:33.956 --> 00:12:37.514 love it. I absolutely enjoyed my legal career. 00:12:37.562 --> 00:12:40.926 But seven years in, I was beginning to question what else is out there? Because 00:12:40.948 --> 00:12:44.306 I had never explored anything else. My dad's a lawyer as well, and our 00:12:44.328 --> 00:12:47.842 conversations around the dinner table were all around that 00:12:47.896 --> 00:12:51.330 career. And so MBA then 00:12:51.400 --> 00:12:55.114 seemed like a good pairing, because an MBA really is like a finishing 00:12:55.182 --> 00:12:59.014 course. It's a miniature introduction to a lot of 00:12:59.052 --> 00:13:02.150 different topics marketing, accounting, finance. 00:13:02.650 --> 00:13:05.954 And I realised I was gravitating a lot towards leadership 00:13:06.002 --> 00:13:09.706 development and human strategy, human capital strategy. And I think 00:13:09.728 --> 00:13:13.222 it's because what gave me the greatest joy 00:13:13.366 --> 00:13:17.014 with law was understanding that we all operate 00:13:17.062 --> 00:13:20.686 within a certain regulatory framework. And the challenge is 00:13:20.708 --> 00:13:24.462 to find solutions for your clients within that. And 00:13:24.516 --> 00:13:27.710 in a corporate world, when as a consultant, as 00:13:27.780 --> 00:13:31.626 a person working in human capital strategy, it's 00:13:31.658 --> 00:13:35.134 the same. You're working within the corporate regulatory 00:13:35.182 --> 00:13:38.626 framework and you're trying to solve for your clients, for your 00:13:38.648 --> 00:13:42.226 stakeholders, for your products. And so it spoke to 00:13:42.248 --> 00:13:45.830 me and about, again, seven years in of 00:13:45.900 --> 00:13:49.270 that I'm curious learner. I thought, 00:13:49.420 --> 00:13:53.266 I'm a lawyer and consultant. A lot of people confide 00:13:53.298 --> 00:13:57.030 in me, how can I hold space for better 00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:00.906 conversations? How can I better support 00:14:01.008 --> 00:14:04.554 people who are speaking with me, confiding me in me, all sorts of 00:14:04.592 --> 00:14:08.054 things. I thought maybe coaching is a good skill to acquire. 00:14:08.182 --> 00:14:11.690 And it was catalytic and transformative. Joanne I just 00:14:11.760 --> 00:14:15.294 ended up thinking, why didn't I do it 20 years back? I would have been 00:14:15.332 --> 00:14:18.570 a better human being for it. This is so phenomenal 00:14:18.650 --> 00:14:22.186 because it was indeed training on skills, 00:14:22.298 --> 00:14:26.046 but also deeper reflection. The kind that I'd never learned 00:14:26.078 --> 00:14:29.314 in law school, never learned in business school, is really 00:14:29.352 --> 00:14:33.074 exploring who I am, why I show up in 00:14:33.112 --> 00:14:36.818 certain ways, in certain situations and what do I want to 00:14:36.824 --> 00:14:40.454 be going forward. And that sort of deep exploration to 00:14:40.492 --> 00:14:44.326 my own psyche was meant to be a foundation for how 00:14:44.348 --> 00:14:47.570 I can hold that space for other people. It's part of coach training. 00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:51.580 But it was so transformative for me. 00:14:52.030 --> 00:14:55.260 It just became a big part of who I am today. So, 00:14:55.790 --> 00:14:59.622 like, with how I moved around a lot, physically, 00:14:59.686 --> 00:15:03.374 geographically, I also moved around a lot in my career. And all 00:15:03.412 --> 00:15:06.942 of that boundary spanning, standing at the edges, looking 00:15:06.996 --> 00:15:10.846 in, is also what feels like my career. These 00:15:10.868 --> 00:15:13.620 are all support services, law 00:15:13.990 --> 00:15:17.234 consulting, these are all folks who 00:15:17.272 --> 00:15:20.846 are standing and supporting 00:15:21.038 --> 00:15:24.818 central business activity. And I guess that's the 00:15:24.824 --> 00:15:28.598 red thread is throughout all of that, I was seeking, what's the 00:15:28.604 --> 00:15:32.454 right thing to do? How can we be the truest, how can I 00:15:32.492 --> 00:15:35.640 be the truest, most 00:15:36.810 --> 00:15:40.498 maybe value based person? I can be doing the most 00:15:40.524 --> 00:15:44.234 right thing I could do? And that's also what I realised, is what I am 00:15:44.272 --> 00:15:47.754 trying to create with my work today is creating those 00:15:47.792 --> 00:15:51.590 workplaces that are ethical, inclusive, inspirational. I think 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.322 it's possible for all of us. I think I often find that's a big component 00:15:55.386 --> 00:15:58.640 that's missing in lots of education is helping people 00:15:59.330 --> 00:16:03.058 find that inner core. Because if you are 00:16:03.144 --> 00:16:06.866 in touch with that, no matter how crazy 00:16:06.968 --> 00:16:10.610 the context is, through COVID, through any of the 00:16:10.680 --> 00:16:14.322 complex VUCA ness of the world, because 00:16:14.376 --> 00:16:17.974 you know who you are at the core, you're informed by 00:16:18.012 --> 00:16:21.080 that. And that in turn will be your North Star. 00:16:22.330 --> 00:16:25.542 I think I mentioned this to you in the green room before we went live, 00:16:25.596 --> 00:16:29.226 that my background was in It and computing and 00:16:29.328 --> 00:16:33.034 I probably spent the formative parts of my life 00:16:33.072 --> 00:16:36.380 and career in a logical black and white 00:16:36.830 --> 00:16:40.394 binary. It works, it doesn't work. Very absolute 00:16:40.512 --> 00:16:44.238 world. And I'm going to make the assumption that 00:16:44.324 --> 00:16:48.062 being a lawyer is quite absolute at times. You win, 00:16:48.116 --> 00:16:51.726 you lose. You're right, you're wrong. There's a definitive answer to 00:16:51.748 --> 00:16:54.660 everything. And what I found moving into the people space 00:16:55.430 --> 00:16:59.106 was that there are no absolutes people are people people are different. People have different 00:16:59.128 --> 00:17:02.866 perspectives. And I realised that I 00:17:02.888 --> 00:17:06.274 was forcing my brain into a logical place 00:17:06.472 --> 00:17:10.150 that it was okay with. But actually it wanted to find the human 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:14.066 connection, it actually wanted to find the human factor. I wanted to explore compassion, 00:17:14.098 --> 00:17:17.766 I wanted to explore different feelings and emotions and be 00:17:17.788 --> 00:17:20.760 vulnerable, whereas in the past it was all around 00:17:21.310 --> 00:17:25.014 right, wrong, black, white, fix, not working, illness 00:17:25.062 --> 00:17:28.586 and things. So I found the last seven years of my life very fulfilling. And 00:17:28.768 --> 00:17:32.494 is that a similar sort of journey that you've discovered with yourself? I love 00:17:32.532 --> 00:17:36.366 that. You're absolutely right. But as someone working in the technical field, I 00:17:36.388 --> 00:17:39.418 imagine precision, finality, 00:17:39.594 --> 00:17:43.326 clarity, absolutes are your world. And 00:17:43.348 --> 00:17:46.866 many ways law is precisely that as well. That's been my own 00:17:46.888 --> 00:17:50.190 journey too. In fact, one of my most favourite stories 00:17:50.270 --> 00:17:53.570 is when I joined my coach training 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.930 programme. One of the master trainers was a man called Mark 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.514 Hempstead, who's sadly passed on. And in my 00:18:00.552 --> 00:18:04.134 conversation with him, I said, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm trained to be 00:18:04.172 --> 00:18:07.830 neutral. And he had a big laugh about 00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:11.414 lawyers being neutral, because lawyers tend to be very 00:18:11.452 --> 00:18:15.114 opinionated and whole. You're absolutely know, it's either 00:18:15.152 --> 00:18:18.858 this or that. And I often think of that twinkle in his eye when I 00:18:18.864 --> 00:18:22.534 think about how far I've come in that 00:18:22.592 --> 00:18:26.190 ability to hold space for myself and for others, 00:18:26.260 --> 00:18:30.014 that more than one thing could be true at all times. The world is 00:18:30.052 --> 00:18:33.806 full of such complex and wicked problems, isn't it, joanne, you 00:18:33.828 --> 00:18:37.426 and I could both be working on the same problem. You're addressing a 00:18:37.448 --> 00:18:41.074 certain aspect of it. I'm addressing a certain aspect of it. My 00:18:41.112 --> 00:18:44.754 solution might harm yours and vice versa. Yet both of 00:18:44.792 --> 00:18:48.054 us could be absolutely well intentioned and focused on 00:18:48.092 --> 00:18:51.734 solving the exact same problem. And 00:18:51.772 --> 00:18:55.000 therefore, what do we do then? It's about 00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:59.030 embracing the fact that both things can be true at the same time, and 00:18:59.100 --> 00:19:02.794 that's the complexity all around us. And we need to find ways in which we 00:19:02.832 --> 00:19:06.490 can collaborate and work across silos and solve those wicked problems 00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:10.282 and understand. Sometimes it's about priorities and sometimes 00:19:10.336 --> 00:19:14.046 it's about maybe coming together and addressing something else that both of 00:19:14.068 --> 00:19:17.678 us can agree on. I don't know if you found this when you were 00:19:17.684 --> 00:19:21.166 practising law that people wanted. They wanted an 00:19:21.188 --> 00:19:24.926 answer, they wanted some sort of reassurance that they were right or they were 00:19:24.948 --> 00:19:28.786 wrong, or would this work and same in my It career. People came 00:19:28.808 --> 00:19:31.266 to me and they wanted me to be the expert, they wanted me to have 00:19:31.288 --> 00:19:34.994 the answer. And there's an immense amount of 00:19:35.032 --> 00:19:38.834 pressure to have to be the answer to 00:19:38.872 --> 00:19:42.534 everyone's problems, to be able to resolve things. And I often say to people, 00:19:42.732 --> 00:19:46.502 the reason it's a problem is because it's a problem. If it wasn't a problem, 00:19:46.556 --> 00:19:50.358 I'd have solved it instantly, I'd have fixed it, I'd have come up 00:19:50.364 --> 00:19:53.298 with the answer, but the fact of the problem is I had to investigate it, 00:19:53.324 --> 00:19:56.298 I have to think about it. That's not necessarily a now thing, it could be 00:19:56.304 --> 00:19:59.770 a week thing, could be a month thing. And I appreciate you want answers quickly, 00:19:59.840 --> 00:20:03.150 but problems are problems, they've been resolved. 00:20:03.570 --> 00:20:07.406 And I learned in my electronics career background, you can 00:20:07.428 --> 00:20:10.814 fault find, you can half split, you can narrow down the root of the problem 00:20:10.852 --> 00:20:14.574 to left half or right half, then left half or right half, 00:20:14.612 --> 00:20:18.354 then left half, so you're narrowing the scope down. But with people 00:20:18.392 --> 00:20:22.020 you can't always do that. You have to go into them with 00:20:22.550 --> 00:20:26.066 vulnerability and compassion. You have to go in with not knowing the 00:20:26.088 --> 00:20:29.910 answer and almost going in, not 00:20:29.980 --> 00:20:33.490 needing to find out the answer, just help people down a path. 00:20:33.650 --> 00:20:37.094 I think that's true in the Dei space as well, that there's no 00:20:37.132 --> 00:20:40.842 absolute solutions, just a best 00:20:40.896 --> 00:20:44.314 journey that everyone can get behind and buy 00:20:44.352 --> 00:20:48.058 into. Yes, and as an advisor, I find that 00:20:48.224 --> 00:20:52.022 the answer of it depends is the least popular 00:20:52.086 --> 00:20:55.866 answer. Nobody wants to hear it. Can you just get to it? Don't 00:20:55.898 --> 00:20:59.726 Hemmen horn, don't be stuck in analysis paralysis. But I 00:20:59.748 --> 00:21:03.010 think that due diligence of looking at everything 00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:06.270 painstakingly, considering all potential 00:21:06.350 --> 00:21:09.902 pitfalls, all perspectives, is absolutely vital. 00:21:09.966 --> 00:21:13.794 That's precisely the space I occupy. That's my personality as well. 00:21:13.832 --> 00:21:17.430 I am very marks data driven, but what I find, 00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:20.040 and this has been my journey, Joe, is 00:21:21.290 --> 00:21:24.374 you might do all of your entire process, 00:21:24.492 --> 00:21:27.142 but you need to also be 00:21:27.196 --> 00:21:30.458 informed by a very clear 00:21:30.624 --> 00:21:34.106 understanding of who you want to be, what you want your 00:21:34.128 --> 00:21:37.830 legacy to be. There are many situations 00:21:37.910 --> 00:21:41.674 in life and work where there are no clear answers and then 00:21:41.712 --> 00:21:45.006 you need to be informed by what can I live with? I need to make 00:21:45.028 --> 00:21:48.842 a tough choice now as a leader, as a manager, as a person responsible 00:21:48.906 --> 00:21:52.606 for something, and there are no clear answers, I need to make a 00:21:52.628 --> 00:21:56.398 call. But the call needs to be made on what are your values? 00:21:56.494 --> 00:21:59.986 At the end of the day, looking back, are you going to be satisfied that 00:22:00.088 --> 00:22:03.474 you did the best you could? It might fail, but if 00:22:03.512 --> 00:22:07.302 you proceeded based on a certain set of values you've thought 00:22:07.356 --> 00:22:11.142 through, then likely you're going to regret less in life. 00:22:11.196 --> 00:22:14.598 And that's very important. I find that missing often. 00:22:14.764 --> 00:22:18.598 Perhaps one of the most important things all of us can invest 00:22:18.684 --> 00:22:22.506 in is surfacing and unearthing and holding close to 00:22:22.528 --> 00:22:26.294 us those values and also acknowledge that maybe those values 00:22:26.342 --> 00:22:30.042 evolve as they should. What your value system? What my value system 00:22:30.096 --> 00:22:33.774 was when I was in my teens is certainly not what it is now 00:22:33.812 --> 00:22:37.566 as a person with some life experience and some travels and some education, 00:22:37.668 --> 00:22:41.054 and I think we should all continue to evolve. I 00:22:41.092 --> 00:22:44.818 travelled quite a lot my younger life. I worked for 00:22:44.824 --> 00:22:48.434 a global bank and I was privileged to be able to 00:22:48.472 --> 00:22:51.970 travel to their offices around the world 00:22:52.120 --> 00:22:55.258 from west coast of America, 00:22:55.374 --> 00:22:59.142 california, north and South California east Coast, New York, 00:22:59.196 --> 00:23:02.434 Miami, Cross, Europe, Far East, Hong Kong, 00:23:02.482 --> 00:23:05.814 Singapore. So I travel quite extensively. Also in 00:23:05.852 --> 00:23:09.658 my social life, I was a member of a club and we regularly used to 00:23:09.664 --> 00:23:12.934 have mainly European meetings and further 00:23:12.982 --> 00:23:16.134 afield where I would stay in people's 00:23:16.182 --> 00:23:19.958 homes for a long weekend, maybe four or five days, 00:23:20.144 --> 00:23:22.910 meet their children, eat around their table, 00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:27.566 sit around their fire in the back garden, in 00:23:27.588 --> 00:23:30.590 their hot tub in Iceland or somewhere. 00:23:31.010 --> 00:23:34.274 So you get to experience all these different cultures and that is 00:23:34.312 --> 00:23:37.842 so enriching to 00:23:37.976 --> 00:23:41.746 be invited to someone else's home as a 00:23:41.768 --> 00:23:45.198 member of their family for several days and it's a 00:23:45.224 --> 00:23:48.854 privilege to enjoy their hospitality and culture and learn so much from 00:23:48.892 --> 00:23:52.530 them. Spot on. One of my current favourite 00:23:52.610 --> 00:23:55.894 metaphors is I'm new in 00:23:55.932 --> 00:23:59.190 Europe, so this is my third continent I'm living and working 00:23:59.260 --> 00:24:03.034 in. And so one of the things 00:24:03.072 --> 00:24:06.794 I learned early on, it's probably apocryphal, but 00:24:06.992 --> 00:24:10.510 apparently the Canadian Inuit have over 00:24:10.580 --> 00:24:14.350 50 words to describe various forms of snow 00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:18.986 and that's because they have a lot of snow that they encounter 00:24:19.018 --> 00:24:22.754 in their daily lives and that's the vocabulary they 00:24:22.792 --> 00:24:26.590 need. And the Dutch, by popular 00:24:26.750 --> 00:24:30.530