Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for
Joanne Lockwood: the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series,
Joanne Lockwood: I've interviewed a number of amazing people have simply had a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging
Joanne Lockwood: and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive.
Joanne Lockwood: If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a
Joanne Lockwood: line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co
Joanne Lockwood: dot uk. You can catch up with all
Joanne Lockwood: of the previous shows on itunes, Spotify and the usual places.
Joanne Lockwood: So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf
Joanne Lockwood: and let's get going. Today
Joanne Lockwood: is Episode 90 with the title"Conversations
Joanne Lockwood: Beyond Borders"", and I
Joanne Lockwood: have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Kaumudi, Kaumudi
Joanne Lockwood: Goda, or KG, to her friends and associates.
Joanne Lockwood: KG is a Leadership Consultant, Executive
Joanne Lockwood: Coach and DEIB Strategist.
Joanne Lockwood: When I asked KG to describe her superpower, she
Joanne Lockwood: said it's her cross siloed perspective, passion for
Joanne Lockwood: fact based big picture thinking and a commitment to
Joanne Lockwood: ethical, compassionate business. Hello,
Joanne Lockwood: Kg, welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne.
Kaumudi Goda: Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. So you're in
Joanne Lockwood: Amsterdam at the moment and it's a bit cold, damp and
Joanne Lockwood: wet over there. Is it? Yeah, the temperatures plunged this past
Kaumudi Goda: week, so we're headed for a rather frosty
Kaumudi Goda: winter, looks like, here. Yeah, I guess it is the 1
Joanne Lockwood: December, so, yeah, I guess we've got colder weather to come,
Joanne Lockwood: but, yeah, as long as we're wrapped up nice and warm in our own homes,
Joanne Lockwood: that's all that matters right now. Absolutely. KG
Joanne Lockwood: conversations beyond borders. Tell me more about that.
Kaumudi Goda: I loved when you picked that title for our conversation.
Kaumudi Goda: Conversation is very important to me. I call my business
Kaumudi Goda: the Human Conversation because I think if we can all
Kaumudi Goda: rise above our little differences and have conversations
Kaumudi Goda: at a human level, we'd definitely be able to build a better
Kaumudi Goda: future for all of us together. And so Conversations Beyond
Kaumudi Goda: Borders seems perfect for our conversation this
Kaumudi Goda: morning. Yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: think that's a good starting point, isn't it? Because
Joanne Lockwood: often, and we look at the world around us at the
Joanne Lockwood: moment where there are conflicts and
Joanne Lockwood: tragedies happening, wars, conflicts, wherever you want to
Joanne Lockwood: describe them, and most of them are where conversations break
Joanne Lockwood: down. And it's really, really important that we recognise
Joanne Lockwood: how we don't always have to be
Joanne Lockwood: right. Not being right is really important and
Joanne Lockwood: understanding perspectives. So for me, that's the basis of
Joanne Lockwood: conversation. So what do you talk about in those sort of
Joanne Lockwood: terms? My own
Kaumudi Goda: sensitivity and my lens is informed by the fact that I've
Kaumudi Goda: always felt like I don't really fit in. I remember
Kaumudi Goda: I felt like I didn't fit in as a young girl growing
Kaumudi Goda: up in a rather patriarchal culture
Kaumudi Goda: in South India. I didn't feel like I fit in
Kaumudi Goda: as a young professional, pretty new in
Kaumudi Goda: New York City, Manhattan. I spent a decade there and I
Kaumudi Goda: think as I went through life, my
Kaumudi Goda: realisation was. All of us are seeking that sense
Kaumudi Goda: of community, that sense of validation, wanting
Kaumudi Goda: to feel seen, heard, understood,
Kaumudi Goda: accepted. That's a universal human
Kaumudi Goda: emotion. But all of us are mired in our
Kaumudi Goda: own little worries,
Kaumudi Goda: feeling alone and wanting to connect and yet failing to realise
Kaumudi Goda: everyone else is likely feeling the same. We all feel like we are
Kaumudi Goda: islands, maroon. And if we could
Kaumudi Goda: embrace our own positions in those borders,
Kaumudi Goda: recognise that maybe standing, feeling like we're standing outside,
Kaumudi Goda: looking in, everyone else is in the same spot,
Kaumudi Goda: it might make it easier to really appreciate somebody
Kaumudi Goda: else's perspective, somebody else's viewpoint, and accept
Kaumudi Goda: that my journey might be different from yours. But you're equally
Kaumudi Goda: valid and entitled to having your opinions,
Kaumudi Goda: having your life experiences, informing your worldviews,
Kaumudi Goda: just as I am entitled to mine. That space of patience,
Kaumudi Goda: compassion, curiosity that comes, I think,
Kaumudi Goda: both with willingness to accept it, but also maybe
Kaumudi Goda: time and patience with that. I certainly still
Kaumudi Goda: feel I'm on that journey, but I'm willing to embrace it and I invite everyone
Kaumudi Goda: else to do so as well. Yeah, that's really important. And I think what you're
Joanne Lockwood: saying there is we have to avoid the temptation
Joanne Lockwood: to want to be right, to speak through our own lens, to speak through
Joanne Lockwood: our own perspective. As the only thought,
Joanne Lockwood: I think is the trouble with opinions is
Joanne Lockwood: they are often based on our own facts, our own view of the world,
Joanne Lockwood: and not necessarily reflective of other facts. Which is
Joanne Lockwood: why we know diversity is important, diversity of voice is important in
Joanne Lockwood: organisations and society to get more than one truth. Because there's
Joanne Lockwood: obviously my perspective, your perspective and the shared perspective of a
Joanne Lockwood: greater view of something. But
Joanne Lockwood: we get too hung up, though, don't we, on having to be right. Confirmation
Joanne Lockwood: bias, I think, for want of a better way of describing it, as a human
Joanne Lockwood: species, why would I want to be wrong all the time?
Joanne Lockwood: It's a human trait to be right, isn't it? And I think
Kaumudi Goda: we need all kinds of perspectives, all kinds of energies and
Kaumudi Goda: visions. If I could pick an example of a
Kaumudi Goda: team that's working together. We need
Kaumudi Goda: visionary folks who have distinct
Kaumudi Goda: ideas and assertively state them with clarity. We
Kaumudi Goda: need that voice, but we also need folks who
Kaumudi Goda: are quite strong in their own
Kaumudi Goda: thoughts and voices, but are feeling ready
Kaumudi Goda: to hold a space for more than one truth at
Kaumudi Goda: the same time. And we need both those voices. In a company, you need
Kaumudi Goda: that assertive, charismatic, extroverted
Kaumudi Goda: promoter of the business idea, but you also need
Kaumudi Goda: folks who are collaborative, open to other ideas,
Kaumudi Goda: willing to explore this might be true, but what else might be true?
Kaumudi Goda: What are we not considering? What are we failing to consider when
Kaumudi Goda: we say assertively, this is the direction we want to go? You need
Kaumudi Goda: all those energies together in a team. It takes discipline and
Kaumudi Goda: it takes commitment, but it also takes a great deal of self confidence
Kaumudi Goda: to be holding that space of saying I am very
Kaumudi Goda: sure about what I believe in, but I can also respect somebody
Kaumudi Goda: else's beliefs and be willing to listen to it. It's not easy. I
Kaumudi Goda: acknowledge that. It takes, I think, a lot
Kaumudi Goda: of self confidence and patience and
Kaumudi Goda: certainly experience. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I think often we find that leaders,
Joanne Lockwood: managers, project leaders in organisations
Joanne Lockwood: often lack what I would call cultural competency or
Joanne Lockwood: cultural intelligence to be able to
Joanne Lockwood: be competent in environments where they have a range of
Joanne Lockwood: different views, different experiences, range of personality
Joanne Lockwood: types, if you like. And often when we're trying to lead these teams,
Joanne Lockwood: we don't truly understand each person's
Joanne Lockwood: motivation, each person's
Joanne Lockwood: communication style, each person's sort of the way they want to
Joanne Lockwood: interact. And sometimes we treat people the same
Joanne Lockwood: and miss the nuances of people's personalities.
Kaumudi Goda: Agree, John? And also, I think that in the
Kaumudi Goda: corporate sector we tend to defy
Kaumudi Goda: a certain personality type. The cult of personality, which
Kaumudi Goda: is fairly prevalent in United States in the corporate
Kaumudi Goda: world, there certainly has seemed to have spread
Kaumudi Goda: in other parts of the world as well. I see that
Kaumudi Goda: charismatic CEO type of a personality that's the one
Kaumudi Goda: that's most recognised as leadership looks
Kaumudi Goda: like that. I had a conversation with a quiet
Kaumudi Goda: friend once and he told me kg, do you recognise
Kaumudi Goda: what a disadvantage it is to be a soft spoken,
Kaumudi Goda: introverted, shy person in the corporate world? You're simply not
Kaumudi Goda: seen as leadership material. And what a blow that is
Kaumudi Goda: to all of us that we cannot recognise
Kaumudi Goda: leadership in all its forms.
Joanne Lockwood: Being outspoken, outgoing for an introvert or
Joanne Lockwood: even an ambivert, or someone who is not competent in speaking out can
Joanne Lockwood: be very exhausting, can't it's? Almost inauthentic as
Joanne Lockwood: well, because you're having to be the person you're not, you're covering, you're masking, you're
Joanne Lockwood: pretending just to be heard. That's exhausting. Yes,
Kaumudi Goda: it is. We shouldn't have to mask, we shouldn't have to code
Kaumudi Goda: switch. These are all terms that perhaps you and I are
Kaumudi Goda: familiar with, but for those who are not familiar with it, masking
Kaumudi Goda: is if I were to feel uncomfortable with
Kaumudi Goda: being myself and I have to put up a front, behave in a certain
Kaumudi Goda: way, change myself to fit into a workplace
Kaumudi Goda: culture, that would be masking. And code switching is similarly, I
Kaumudi Goda: speak differently. I communicate and hold myself out in a
Kaumudi Goda: certain way because I feel speaking as myself, communicating what
Kaumudi Goda: is naturally my style would not be acceptable. That's
Kaumudi Goda: code switching as well. And we all do that. And we should
Kaumudi Goda: be cognizant of the importance of creating spaces where none of
Kaumudi Goda: us have to mask or code switch.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I mean, people are probably more familiar these days with the
Joanne Lockwood: term or phrase bring your whole self to work and also
Joanne Lockwood: psychological safety, which are kind of ways of creating
Joanne Lockwood: environments where people don't have to mask, code switch or
Joanne Lockwood: cover or hide who they are. So we're
Joanne Lockwood: already trying to bring those senses of
Joanne Lockwood: self into the workplace and allow people to be themselves more
Joanne Lockwood: and more 100%. Psychological safety
Kaumudi Goda: is absolutely the number one thing all of us need.
Kaumudi Goda: Until I feel I am in a safe
Kaumudi Goda: space, I'm not even able to be curious, to be a
Kaumudi Goda: learner, to even bring my best to work, forget
Kaumudi Goda: about feeling like I can trust my colleagues. That won't even
Kaumudi Goda: be the second or third step. The first step is to
Kaumudi Goda: feel safe. Then I can relax, then I can learn, then I can do my
Kaumudi Goda: best, and then perhaps I'll consider connecting with other people. None of those
Kaumudi Goda: will happen without psychological safety. You're absolutely right.
Joanne Lockwood: You mentioned that you are
Joanne Lockwood: based in North America for a while. You've lived
Joanne Lockwood: in Singapore for a while, maybe you grew up in
Joanne Lockwood: India. Now you're in Amsterdam and Netherlands.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell us a bit about your career and how that's evolved over those years.
Kaumudi Goda: That's a beautiful analogy right there. I think that's
Kaumudi Goda: perhaps paralleled by my career as well. I've moved around a lot
Kaumudi Goda: and that informs my lens. Similarly, in my career,
Kaumudi Goda: I started out as a lawyer. I practised law in New York
Kaumudi Goda: City for about seven years. And therefore that legal
Kaumudi Goda: perspective, that risk assessment, that compliance
Kaumudi Goda: with regulatory, the logic that all of us abide by
Kaumudi Goda: certain laws is very central to how I
Kaumudi Goda: look at solving problems in the workplace as well. And about seven
Kaumudi Goda: years in Joanne, I realised I was that classic Indian kid. I
Kaumudi Goda: was blinkers on. Grades were important, as is with
Kaumudi Goda: a lot of children growing up in the Global South. Grades
Kaumudi Goda: were important because your education is your passport to a better
Kaumudi Goda: life, more secure food security, shelter, financial
Kaumudi Goda: security. All of that comes with working hard and
Kaumudi Goda: having access to better education. And that's what I focused on.
Kaumudi Goda: And law seemed like a solid career. I
Kaumudi Goda: love it. I absolutely enjoyed my legal career.
Kaumudi Goda: But seven years in, I was beginning to question what else is out there? Because
Kaumudi Goda: I had never explored anything else. My dad's a lawyer as well, and our
Kaumudi Goda: conversations around the dinner table were all around that
Kaumudi Goda: career. And so MBA then
Kaumudi Goda: seemed like a good pairing, because an MBA really is like a finishing
Kaumudi Goda: course. It's a miniature introduction to a lot of
Kaumudi Goda: different topics marketing, accounting, finance.
Kaumudi Goda: And I realised I was gravitating a lot towards leadership
Kaumudi Goda: development and human strategy, human capital strategy. And I think
Kaumudi Goda: it's because what gave me the greatest joy
Kaumudi Goda: with law was understanding that we all operate
Kaumudi Goda: within a certain regulatory framework. And the challenge is
Kaumudi Goda: to find solutions for your clients within that. And
Kaumudi Goda: in a corporate world, when as a consultant, as
Kaumudi Goda: a person working in human capital strategy, it's
Kaumudi Goda: the same. You're working within the corporate regulatory
Kaumudi Goda: framework and you're trying to solve for your clients, for your
Kaumudi Goda: stakeholders, for your products. And so it spoke to
Kaumudi Goda: me and about, again, seven years in of
Kaumudi Goda: that I'm curious learner. I thought,
Kaumudi Goda: I'm a lawyer and consultant. A lot of people confide
Kaumudi Goda: in me, how can I hold space for better
Kaumudi Goda: conversations? How can I better support
Kaumudi Goda: people who are speaking with me, confiding me in me, all sorts of
Kaumudi Goda: things. I thought maybe coaching is a good skill to acquire.
Kaumudi Goda: And it was catalytic and transformative. Joanne I just
Kaumudi Goda: ended up thinking, why didn't I do it 20 years back? I would have been
Kaumudi Goda: a better human being for it. This is so phenomenal
Kaumudi Goda: because it was indeed training on skills,
Kaumudi Goda: but also deeper reflection. The kind that I'd never learned
Kaumudi Goda: in law school, never learned in business school, is really
Kaumudi Goda: exploring who I am, why I show up in
Kaumudi Goda: certain ways, in certain situations and what do I want to
Kaumudi Goda: be going forward. And that sort of deep exploration to
Kaumudi Goda: my own psyche was meant to be a foundation for how
Kaumudi Goda: I can hold that space for other people. It's part of coach training.
Kaumudi Goda: But it was so transformative for me.
Kaumudi Goda: It just became a big part of who I am today. So,
Kaumudi Goda: like, with how I moved around a lot, physically,
Kaumudi Goda: geographically, I also moved around a lot in my career. And all
Kaumudi Goda: of that boundary spanning, standing at the edges, looking
Kaumudi Goda: in, is also what feels like my career. These
Kaumudi Goda: are all support services, law
Kaumudi Goda: consulting, these are all folks who
Kaumudi Goda: are standing and supporting
Kaumudi Goda: central business activity. And I guess that's the
Kaumudi Goda: red thread is throughout all of that, I was seeking, what's the
Kaumudi Goda: right thing to do? How can we be the truest, how can I
Kaumudi Goda: be the truest, most
Kaumudi Goda: maybe value based person? I can be doing the most
Kaumudi Goda: right thing I could do? And that's also what I realised, is what I am
Kaumudi Goda: trying to create with my work today is creating those
Kaumudi Goda: workplaces that are ethical, inclusive, inspirational. I think
Kaumudi Goda: it's possible for all of us. I think I often find that's a big component
Kaumudi Goda: that's missing in lots of education is helping people
Kaumudi Goda: find that inner core. Because if you are
Kaumudi Goda: in touch with that, no matter how crazy
Kaumudi Goda: the context is, through COVID, through any of the
Kaumudi Goda: complex VUCA ness of the world, because
Kaumudi Goda: you know who you are at the core, you're informed by
Kaumudi Goda: that. And that in turn will be your North Star.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I mentioned this to you in the green room before we went live,
Joanne Lockwood: that my background was in It and computing and
Joanne Lockwood: I probably spent the formative parts of my life
Joanne Lockwood: and career in a logical black and white
Joanne Lockwood: binary. It works, it doesn't work. Very absolute
Joanne Lockwood: world. And I'm going to make the assumption that
Joanne Lockwood: being a lawyer is quite absolute at times. You win,
Joanne Lockwood: you lose. You're right, you're wrong. There's a definitive answer to
Joanne Lockwood: everything. And what I found moving into the people space
Joanne Lockwood: was that there are no absolutes people are people people are different. People have different
Joanne Lockwood: perspectives. And I realised that I
Joanne Lockwood: was forcing my brain into a logical place
Joanne Lockwood: that it was okay with. But actually it wanted to find the human
Joanne Lockwood: connection, it actually wanted to find the human factor. I wanted to explore compassion,
Joanne Lockwood: I wanted to explore different feelings and emotions and be
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerable, whereas in the past it was all around
Joanne Lockwood: right, wrong, black, white, fix, not working, illness
Joanne Lockwood: and things. So I found the last seven years of my life very fulfilling. And
Joanne Lockwood: is that a similar sort of journey that you've discovered with yourself? I love
Kaumudi Goda: that. You're absolutely right. But as someone working in the technical field, I
Kaumudi Goda: imagine precision, finality,
Kaumudi Goda: clarity, absolutes are your world. And
Kaumudi Goda: many ways law is precisely that as well. That's been my own
Kaumudi Goda: journey too. In fact, one of my most favourite stories
Kaumudi Goda: is when I joined my coach training
Kaumudi Goda: programme. One of the master trainers was a man called Mark
Kaumudi Goda: Hempstead, who's sadly passed on. And in my
Kaumudi Goda: conversation with him, I said, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm trained to be
Kaumudi Goda: neutral. And he had a big laugh about
Kaumudi Goda: lawyers being neutral, because lawyers tend to be very
Kaumudi Goda: opinionated and whole. You're absolutely know, it's either
Kaumudi Goda: this or that. And I often think of that twinkle in his eye when I
Kaumudi Goda: think about how far I've come in that
Kaumudi Goda: ability to hold space for myself and for others,
Kaumudi Goda: that more than one thing could be true at all times. The world is
Kaumudi Goda: full of such complex and wicked problems, isn't it, joanne, you
Kaumudi Goda: and I could both be working on the same problem. You're addressing a
Kaumudi Goda: certain aspect of it. I'm addressing a certain aspect of it. My
Kaumudi Goda: solution might harm yours and vice versa. Yet both of
Kaumudi Goda: us could be absolutely well intentioned and focused on
Kaumudi Goda: solving the exact same problem. And
Kaumudi Goda: therefore, what do we do then? It's about
Kaumudi Goda: embracing the fact that both things can be true at the same time, and
Kaumudi Goda: that's the complexity all around us. And we need to find ways in which we
Kaumudi Goda: can collaborate and work across silos and solve those wicked problems
Kaumudi Goda: and understand. Sometimes it's about priorities and sometimes
Kaumudi Goda: it's about maybe coming together and addressing something else that both of
Kaumudi Goda: us can agree on. I don't know if you found this when you were
Joanne Lockwood: practising law that people wanted. They wanted an
Joanne Lockwood: answer, they wanted some sort of reassurance that they were right or they were
Joanne Lockwood: wrong, or would this work and same in my It career. People came
Joanne Lockwood: to me and they wanted me to be the expert, they wanted me to have
Joanne Lockwood: the answer. And there's an immense amount of
Joanne Lockwood: pressure to have to be the answer to
Joanne Lockwood: everyone's problems, to be able to resolve things. And I often say to people,
Joanne Lockwood: the reason it's a problem is because it's a problem. If it wasn't a problem,
Joanne Lockwood: I'd have solved it instantly, I'd have fixed it, I'd have come up
Joanne Lockwood: with the answer, but the fact of the problem is I had to investigate it,
Joanne Lockwood: I have to think about it. That's not necessarily a now thing, it could be
Joanne Lockwood: a week thing, could be a month thing. And I appreciate you want answers quickly,
Joanne Lockwood: but problems are problems, they've been resolved.
Joanne Lockwood: And I learned in my electronics career background, you can
Joanne Lockwood: fault find, you can half split, you can narrow down the root of the problem
Joanne Lockwood: to left half or right half, then left half or right half,
Joanne Lockwood: then left half, so you're narrowing the scope down. But with people
Joanne Lockwood: you can't always do that. You have to go into them with
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerability and compassion. You have to go in with not knowing the
Joanne Lockwood: answer and almost going in, not
Joanne Lockwood: needing to find out the answer, just help people down a path.
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's true in the Dei space as well, that there's no
Joanne Lockwood: absolute solutions, just a best
Joanne Lockwood: journey that everyone can get behind and buy
Joanne Lockwood: into. Yes, and as an advisor, I find that
Kaumudi Goda: the answer of it depends is the least popular
Kaumudi Goda: answer. Nobody wants to hear it. Can you just get to it? Don't
Kaumudi Goda: Hemmen horn, don't be stuck in analysis paralysis. But I
Kaumudi Goda: think that due diligence of looking at everything
Kaumudi Goda: painstakingly, considering all potential
Kaumudi Goda: pitfalls, all perspectives, is absolutely vital.
Kaumudi Goda: That's precisely the space I occupy. That's my personality as well.
Kaumudi Goda: I am very marks data driven, but what I find,
Kaumudi Goda: and this has been my journey, Joe, is
Kaumudi Goda: you might do all of your entire process,
Kaumudi Goda: but you need to also be
Kaumudi Goda: informed by a very clear
Kaumudi Goda: understanding of who you want to be, what you want your
Kaumudi Goda: legacy to be. There are many situations
Kaumudi Goda: in life and work where there are no clear answers and then
Kaumudi Goda: you need to be informed by what can I live with? I need to make
Kaumudi Goda: a tough choice now as a leader, as a manager, as a person responsible
Kaumudi Goda: for something, and there are no clear answers, I need to make a
Kaumudi Goda: call. But the call needs to be made on what are your values?
Kaumudi Goda: At the end of the day, looking back, are you going to be satisfied that
Kaumudi Goda: you did the best you could? It might fail, but if
Kaumudi Goda: you proceeded based on a certain set of values you've thought
Kaumudi Goda: through, then likely you're going to regret less in life.
Kaumudi Goda: And that's very important. I find that missing often.
Kaumudi Goda: Perhaps one of the most important things all of us can invest
Kaumudi Goda: in is surfacing and unearthing and holding close to
Kaumudi Goda: us those values and also acknowledge that maybe those values
Kaumudi Goda: evolve as they should. What your value system? What my value system
Kaumudi Goda: was when I was in my teens is certainly not what it is now
Kaumudi Goda: as a person with some life experience and some travels and some education,
Kaumudi Goda: and I think we should all continue to evolve. I
Joanne Lockwood: travelled quite a lot my younger life. I worked for
Joanne Lockwood: a global bank and I was privileged to be able to
Joanne Lockwood: travel to their offices around the world
Joanne Lockwood: from west coast of America,
Joanne Lockwood: california, north and South California east Coast, New York,
Joanne Lockwood: Miami, Cross, Europe, Far East, Hong Kong,
Joanne Lockwood: Singapore. So I travel quite extensively. Also in
Joanne Lockwood: my social life, I was a member of a club and we regularly used to
Joanne Lockwood: have mainly European meetings and further
Joanne Lockwood: afield where I would stay in people's
Joanne Lockwood: homes for a long weekend, maybe four or five days,
Joanne Lockwood: meet their children, eat around their table,
Joanne Lockwood: sit around their fire in the back garden, in
Joanne Lockwood: their hot tub in Iceland or somewhere.
Joanne Lockwood: So you get to experience all these different cultures and that is
Joanne Lockwood: so enriching to
Joanne Lockwood: be invited to someone else's home as a
Joanne Lockwood: member of their family for several days and it's a
Joanne Lockwood: privilege to enjoy their hospitality and culture and learn so much from
Joanne Lockwood: them. Spot on. One of my current favourite
Kaumudi Goda: metaphors is I'm new in
Kaumudi Goda: Europe, so this is my third continent I'm living and working
Kaumudi Goda: in. And so one of the things
Kaumudi Goda: I learned early on, it's probably apocryphal, but
Kaumudi Goda: apparently the Canadian Inuit have over
Kaumudi Goda: 50 words to describe various forms of snow
Kaumudi Goda: and that's because they have a lot of snow that they encounter
Kaumudi Goda: in their daily lives and that's the vocabulary they
Kaumudi Goda: need. And the Dutch, by popular
Kaumudi Goda: pop culture, have more words for bad
Kaumudi Goda: weather than all the words in innovate culture. And
Kaumudi Goda: so it may or may not be true, but it tickles
Kaumudi Goda: me because I think that is so important. To understand
Kaumudi Goda: a person, to truly understand and know a person,
Kaumudi Goda: I think we need to understand what are their challenges,
Kaumudi Goda: what are their priorities, what is it that they are currently focused
Kaumudi Goda: on? And so, as much as all of us are working these
Kaumudi Goda: days, perhaps in global organisations with global
Kaumudi Goda: vision, that local sensitivity in understanding
Kaumudi Goda: what shoes a person's walking in, what is their vocabulary, what
Kaumudi Goda: do they need the most nuance in their life
Kaumudi Goda: for? And knowing that it varies what I have the
Kaumudi Goda: most vocabulary for, probably your vocabulary is very focused on something
Kaumudi Goda: entirely different. And to truly know you and understand you, I need to get
Kaumudi Goda: that. Yeah. As you say, this is now your third continent.
Joanne Lockwood: You must have picked up a whole breadth and
Joanne Lockwood: depth of cultural
Joanne Lockwood: information. Food, you say, the
Joanne Lockwood: weather, the way people interact with each other, how they greet each
Joanne Lockwood: other, personal space. There's a whole lot of different
Joanne Lockwood: dynamics, more than just plain language,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't there, around communication and being together?
Kaumudi Goda: I don't know about breadth and depth, but certainly
Kaumudi Goda: greater humility around the fact that there's
Kaumudi Goda: so much we do not know, so much that it's so very
Kaumudi Goda: easy to not realise, not sense, not be
Kaumudi Goda: sensitive to, and how important it is to keep your eyes wide
Kaumudi Goda: open. That sense of learning and humility is
Kaumudi Goda: certainly what I'm more and more
Kaumudi Goda: growing towards. From a relatively fresh
Kaumudi Goda: perspective, I do notice that for me,
Kaumudi Goda: one obvious change as a practitioner is in the US.
Kaumudi Goda: It's pretty forefront of conversations and
Kaumudi Goda: consciousness, the language and
Kaumudi Goda: vocabulary and sensitivity around inclusion, because there
Kaumudi Goda: has been a lot of public discourse. Now people
Kaumudi Goda: may fall at any end of the spectrum. There's a whole
Kaumudi Goda: range of reactions and thoughts and opinions about it, even
Kaumudi Goda: within United States. But certainly at the forefront of
Kaumudi Goda: that conversation, there public discourse. In Asia, for
Kaumudi Goda: instance, there is a greater sense of
Kaumudi Goda: we are a little different. We know, we understand in a certain
Kaumudi Goda: sense, but also because in the Global South there
Kaumudi Goda: is a great motivation for getting
Kaumudi Goda: with the rest of the world aspirational interest
Kaumudi Goda: in ensuring we correct what needs to be corrected,
Kaumudi Goda: anxiety and obviously worry about holding our identity
Kaumudi Goda: secure. But certainly let's get a move on.
Kaumudi Goda: And because of that motivation, the conversation has trickled absolutely
Kaumudi Goda: into public discourse there as well, joe and that's my observation. These
Kaumudi Goda: conversations are happening, in fact, perhaps even a little bit more
Kaumudi Goda: advanced and more open mindedness in my
Kaumudi Goda: observation, in Asia, having lived there for nearly a decade as well.
Kaumudi Goda: I'm brand new in Europe, and I have to say I've had the fortune of
Kaumudi Goda: meeting many, many wonderful advocates,
Kaumudi Goda: practitioners, allies and amplifiers for dei.
Kaumudi Goda: But my very new
Kaumudi Goda: eyes tell me
Kaumudi Goda: here, there, I think, perhaps is a more
Kaumudi Goda: widespread block between knowing and
Kaumudi Goda: doing. The identity seems to be we are the
Kaumudi Goda: good guys. We have not had historic
Kaumudi Goda: tradition of slavery, we have not had a
Kaumudi Goda: historic tradition of being oppressors, and
Kaumudi Goda: therefore we good guys. We have it
Kaumudi Goda: more sorted. This is not our problem. And with that
Kaumudi Goda: identity, I think, also comes a stubbornness sort of a
Kaumudi Goda: blind spot around curiosity for other
Kaumudi Goda: perspectives. What else can I do? If I hold that I am a very good
Kaumudi Goda: person, a very woke person, a very sorted and inclusive person, then
Kaumudi Goda: perhaps I'm shutting off conversation that's possible around what can I do
Kaumudi Goda: differently? What can I improve more? And that
Kaumudi Goda: is my speaking as a very new person here.
Kaumudi Goda: I would say perhaps that's something we can embrace more, is
Kaumudi Goda: curiosity around what can. That's a very interesting perspective.
Joanne Lockwood: So as a person who's lived in the UK most of
Joanne Lockwood: my life, I'm white, grown up in a fairly
Joanne Lockwood: average family, I don't see myself
Joanne Lockwood: as a colonialist, I don't see myself as an
Joanne Lockwood: invader. I don't see myself as somebody who has gone out into
Joanne Lockwood: the world and destroyed cultures. That's something
Joanne Lockwood: that happened in the history books. That's something that happened by somebody else.
Joanne Lockwood: Whereas I think what I'm picking up on what you're saying is when you're in
Joanne Lockwood: the Global South, you're living with the impact of
Joanne Lockwood: colonialism and that echo is still there,
Joanne Lockwood: even three, 4500 years later. So
Joanne Lockwood: when you come to the Global North,
Joanne Lockwood: you're seeing a kind of a detachment from that reality. But when you're in the
Joanne Lockwood: Global South, you're living with that day to day. That's beautifully
Kaumudi Goda: put, and thank you for saying that.
Kaumudi Goda: The thing the disconnect from the acknowledgement
Kaumudi Goda: of power and privilege, it's so subtle, it's practically
Kaumudi Goda: invisible. And I think it becomes very easy to have a big blind
Kaumudi Goda: spot around it. And perhaps the most Dutch example I can give
Kaumudi Goda: is the Dutch are great cyclers. They
Kaumudi Goda: cycle everywhere. And when we were new here in the
Kaumudi Goda: summer, we all stepped out and said, let's go cycling together. It's a
Kaumudi Goda: beautiful family activity. And on the way out,
Kaumudi Goda: Joanne, we were cycling. It was gorgeous. Dutch
Kaumudi Goda: countryside is stunning in its beauty. Flowers everywhere,
Kaumudi Goda: meadows, sheeps, horses. Such a country focused on
Kaumudi Goda: sustainability. It was beautiful and joyous. And about
Kaumudi Goda: halfway through our journey, we said, let's turn back. And all of a
Kaumudi Goda: sudden I was huffing and puffing and I couldn't focus on any of the
Kaumudi Goda: countryside. And all I was thinking about was like, my God, I
Kaumudi Goda: suck at cycling. This is so hard. I don't think I can cycle all the
Kaumudi Goda: way back home. And I think the difference simply was that when we were on
Kaumudi Goda: our outward journey, the breeze was aiding our journey
Kaumudi Goda: forward, and that was invisible. The winds
Kaumudi Goda: were invisible to me. They were pleasant. It was a beautiful summer breeze. But
Kaumudi Goda: the whole system was aiding me in moving forward. And I was able to
Kaumudi Goda: focus on the beauty of the world and my family and my lovely
Kaumudi Goda: little boys and just how good this all feels.
Kaumudi Goda: But the minute the system was working against me, it was
Kaumudi Goda: equally invisible. But I couldn't focus on anything. All I could
Kaumudi Goda: focus on was my hardship. And that's very true of
Kaumudi Goda: folks from the Global South, folks from any sort of non
Kaumudi Goda: dominant identity trying to operate
Kaumudi Goda: in workplaces, in cultures where they do not have
Kaumudi Goda: that invisible systemic support, power and
Kaumudi Goda: privilege. It's invisible to both of us. But if you
Kaumudi Goda: have an advantage, you're able to enjoy and
Kaumudi Goda: navigate the workplace in a way I simply cannot. And I might look
Kaumudi Goda: like I'm preoccupied with my uniqueness, my difference,
Kaumudi Goda: and how that makes my life difficult. It might seem like it's a loser
Kaumudi Goda: attitude and victim attitude, but it's because nothing
Kaumudi Goda: else is possible for me while the system is making it subtly
Kaumudi Goda: invisibly harder for me to be part of it
Kaumudi Goda: and navigate it with the same ease and confidence. That's
Kaumudi Goda: that subtle difference between knowing and doing. Because
Kaumudi Goda: in many workplaces, in many leadership, let's say a
Kaumudi Goda: table, if we use that frequent dei
Kaumudi Goda: metaphor, I'm at the table. But I certainly
Kaumudi Goda: feel like I'm an invited guest. I'm there
Kaumudi Goda: at your largest. This is not my table. I better
Kaumudi Goda: watch it. I better watch my language. I better be watchful about what
Kaumudi Goda: I need to and how I need to navigate it, because it
Kaumudi Goda: might be rescinded. That invitation might be rescinded any moment,
Kaumudi Goda: one false step. How does then
Kaumudi Goda: being strategic, being. More rising
Kaumudi Goda: above myself become possible to me at all. I'm focused on
Kaumudi Goda: survival. It's
Kaumudi Goda: that 101 inclusion, 101. All of us
Kaumudi Goda: universally, I think we can say majority of us are working on it
Kaumudi Goda: consciously. But after that basic level of inclusion,
Kaumudi Goda: we now have built a table and invited folks in.
Kaumudi Goda: That next level of inclusion where we focus on
Kaumudi Goda: these subtleties, these nuances, these ways
Kaumudi Goda: in which it's easier for me. It's my stage, my table, my mic,
Kaumudi Goda: versus maybe it's not yours. And you feel very much like a guest. How can
Kaumudi Goda: I make that better? We can be more sensitive to it.
Kaumudi Goda: I think it would be a lovely step forward, a levelling
Kaumudi Goda: up, if you will, on inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: I love that analogy and obviously
Joanne Lockwood: your real experience of that subtle breeze
Joanne Lockwood: on your back gives you that you're
Joanne Lockwood: unaware of, that subtle aid and boost you're getting.
Joanne Lockwood: But when it's on your front, you become hyper aware
Joanne Lockwood: that the same breeze that helps you is the same breeze that oppresses you, the
Joanne Lockwood: same breeze that stops you succeeding, makes your journey
Joanne Lockwood: harder. So if two people cycling in different
Joanne Lockwood: directions for the same breeze have a different experience, and that's a really powerful
Joanne Lockwood: analogy, and I love the way that you brought that out there.
Joanne Lockwood: You talked about this table, it's not your table, it's somebody else's table.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's the challenge, I find, is that whether we're talking about
Joanne Lockwood: female empowerment, whether we're talking about antiracism anti
Joanne Lockwood: Semitism, whatever, we're talking about ableism.
Joanne Lockwood: The challenge is that the table has been
Joanne Lockwood: built and constructed and hosted by people who hold
Joanne Lockwood: power and privilege in some way, whether they're white, whether they're men, whether
Joanne Lockwood: able bodied, whether they're Christian or non religious, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be. That's who owns the table.
Joanne Lockwood: And what you're saying is the day will come where people who
Joanne Lockwood: are marginalised people have taken their power. They've put the
Joanne Lockwood: wind behind them, if you like, so they're getting the amplification,
Joanne Lockwood: then the people who used to hold the power and privilege will be either
Joanne Lockwood: a guest at the table or they won't come to
Joanne Lockwood: the table at all because they're not used to having those conversations from a position
Joanne Lockwood: of marginalisation. So how do we get people who
Joanne Lockwood: are used to power and privilege to recognise
Joanne Lockwood: that and to want to have conversations? It is very
Kaumudi Goda: hard. I think it takes a tremendous amount of discipline
Kaumudi Goda: and self reflection to be mindful, even, because it
Kaumudi Goda: can be so subtle and so seductive to fall
Kaumudi Goda: into the usual it feels familiar, that
Kaumudi Goda: usual pace of things. I was advising a global organisation
Kaumudi Goda: where there was a huge drive to bring in more
Kaumudi Goda: global diversity at their topmost leadership level.
Kaumudi Goda: And what I found was that they kept
Kaumudi Goda: asking, Why are we not succeeding? Why do we have such a high attrition rate?
Kaumudi Goda: Why do folks fail to apply even when opportunity
Kaumudi Goda: is given at the top most leadership level? And it was because folks had been
Kaumudi Goda: there for the longest time. They were used to
Kaumudi Goda: hyper effective. I understand you completely because
Kaumudi Goda: we've walked the same path, we've had the same education, we speak
Kaumudi Goda: the same language, we know the organisation that we have built from
Kaumudi Goda: scratch, inside out, therefore we have a short hand. It's almost
Kaumudi Goda: like I can look at you and you understand instantly what I'm
Kaumudi Goda: thinking, but someone else from a very distinct,
Kaumudi Goda: different experience, different skill set, different way of
Kaumudi Goda: communicating, it just feels slower. And it's like they
Kaumudi Goda: don't get it. And what they say, I get it, I've known it. I've known
Kaumudi Goda: it for years. And so when we do that, when we do that
Kaumudi Goda: dismissive, fine, but this is slower and this is not
Kaumudi Goda: effective. We are just seeking the comfort
Kaumudi Goda: of what is familiar to us. But the impact of
Kaumudi Goda: that dismissal can be tremendous on those who
Kaumudi Goda: have been newly invited to that space. And that's
Kaumudi Goda: really, really important to pay attention to. So what can
Kaumudi Goda: folks who currently do have those dominant
Kaumudi Goda: positions, whether it was conscious or
Kaumudi Goda: not? If you observe that there are folks,
Kaumudi Goda: perhaps who are new to the table who might feel they are
Kaumudi Goda: invited, they might be suffering from impostor syndrome or any other
Kaumudi Goda: kinds of nervousness or anxiety around, maybe they don't quite
Kaumudi Goda: fully belong in that room. What can you do? Be more
Kaumudi Goda: mindful about the words and actions. If there is
Kaumudi Goda: a conversation around a decision, an exploration of
Kaumudi Goda: an idea, brainstorming of any kind, let the other
Kaumudi Goda: folks share their opinions before
Kaumudi Goda: the folks currently holding
Kaumudi Goda: the familiar positions speak. I have seen many different
Kaumudi Goda: mechanisms being employed effectively, joanne, for instance,
Kaumudi Goda: when you're voting on something, let even the unpopular
Kaumudi Goda: choices be populated by the support of the leaders. For example,
Kaumudi Goda: if you are leading my team and there is an unpopular choice to be currently
Kaumudi Goda: considering, if you give it support, whether or not you believe in it, it encourages
Kaumudi Goda: those who are more quiet to speak up. If they're thinking
Kaumudi Goda: that our team is better off choosing an unpopular choice because you made it okay
Kaumudi Goda: to choose that. Another could be say there
Kaumudi Goda: are some quieter voices that tend not to speak up in team meetings.
Kaumudi Goda: You could invite them to send their opinion to you one on one
Kaumudi Goda: via email, or set up some time with you prior to the
Kaumudi Goda: meeting. If they're quieter voices, what can we do to
Kaumudi Goda: bring those to the fore? What can we do to make it okay for them
Kaumudi Goda: to share it? Let's all be watching about how quickly we
Kaumudi Goda: dismiss something. A lot of times now, reverse
Kaumudi Goda: mentoring has become instituted in a lot of organisations. You have a 20
Kaumudi Goda: something intern sitting on the board. Are we
Kaumudi Goda: genuinely encouraging that person to share their perspective,
Kaumudi Goda: or are we being subtly patronising without even realising it
Kaumudi Goda: bad? Good job. How is that going to encourage that person to share
Kaumudi Goda: anything? Or dismissively making a statement of,
Kaumudi Goda: oh, entitled Gen Z or Alpha gen or
Kaumudi Goda: you guys probably know all about it's
Kaumudi Goda: humour, it's easy, it's familiar, it's comforting to
Kaumudi Goda: resort to that quickly. Therefore it takes discipline, for sure, to be
Kaumudi Goda: mindful of it. These may be very, very subtle, but that's
Kaumudi Goda: where we step up from Inclusion 101
Kaumudi Goda: to genuinely levelling up and saying our actions, our
Kaumudi Goda: behaviours, our strategies are now aligned with what we say we
Kaumudi Goda: want. Because as a consultant, as an advisor going into
Kaumudi Goda: organisations, this is my observation. If we hold
Kaumudi Goda: out that we are an inclusive leader, inclusive team,
Kaumudi Goda: inclusive organisation, invite people in and then
Kaumudi Goda: we let them down by all of these subtle,
Kaumudi Goda: subconscious, unconscious behaviours. More
Kaumudi Goda: overtly if there fail to be consequences
Kaumudi Goda: of those leaders who are currently in downward positions, they behave
Kaumudi Goda: badly, they make poor choices, they're not aligned with our stated
Kaumudi Goda: values. And as an organisation, as a team, there
Kaumudi Goda: are no consequences to that. Or
Kaumudi Goda: worse. We let people in and when they speak up, we punish
Kaumudi Goda: them. We punish the whistleblowers in any of these three things, whether it's subtle,
Kaumudi Goda: unconscious or no consequences for behaviour not aligned with our
Kaumudi Goda: stated values, or we punish the whistleblowers for saying the
Kaumudi Goda: uncomfortable thing. All three situations. Two things
Kaumudi Goda: happen. Those voices that are actively trying
Kaumudi Goda: to make the workplace better, they quit, they walk
Kaumudi Goda: out. And those voices that were mastering up the nerve
Kaumudi Goda: to no longer be fence sitters, to no longer be quiet, they will
Kaumudi Goda: go right back into hiding. And that's a dead ecosystem.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a real challenge, though, if you're in the EDI space,
Joanne Lockwood: the dib space, as a practitioner, as an in house
Joanne Lockwood: person, to keep on keeping on.
Joanne Lockwood: It is exhausting because you find that you're always having
Joanne Lockwood: conversations almost every day, trying to enlighten
Joanne Lockwood: people who often don't want to be enlightened, that they
Joanne Lockwood: go, what's wrong? Everything's good. I don't
Joanne Lockwood: see race, I don't see colour, I don't see this. I treat everyone the same,
Joanne Lockwood: missing the sort of nuances of their position, their power,
Joanne Lockwood: as you say, their majority. And
Joanne Lockwood: it does become exhausting. And even though I don't work inside
Joanne Lockwood: corporates that often, just the conversations I have with
Joanne Lockwood: friends, just listening to the attitudes around
Joanne Lockwood: a restaurant table, they're ingrained deeply
Joanne Lockwood: in many people's psyche and lived experience that they
Joanne Lockwood: don't see the world as having a problem. Again,
Joanne Lockwood: you talked earlier about this wind in your face, wind behind you.
Joanne Lockwood: When you've had the wind behind you all the time,
Joanne Lockwood: you think that's the norm, but it is your norm. And the fact
Joanne Lockwood: that other people are struggling the other way, your
Joanne Lockwood: attitude is, well, they have to work harder, or why should I give them,
Joanne Lockwood: why should I sacrifice myself for them?
Joanne Lockwood: So how do we, as practitioners, as dei
Joanne Lockwood: professionals, or anybody out there who's listening, who is wanting
Joanne Lockwood: to change the world for the better, how do we keep up and
Joanne Lockwood: keep on in the face of these challenges all the
Joanne Lockwood: time. That's actually a question that I struggle with
Kaumudi Goda: as well. And so what bubbled up for me, Joanne, when you were
Kaumudi Goda: saying this that's so close to my heart and resonates with what I
Kaumudi Goda: struggle with as well is, Joanne, when you have felt
Kaumudi Goda: exhausted or overwhelmed or asked yourself, this is so
Kaumudi Goda: thankless, why should I even try? Why not go back to a
Kaumudi Goda: safe, highly paying profession of being It consultant?
Kaumudi Goda: When you feel like that, what has given you
Kaumudi Goda: some relief, some
Kaumudi Goda: comfort and some motivation? What has helped you
Kaumudi Goda: recharge your own batteries? I suppose for me,
Joanne Lockwood: I just dig deep into why I do what I
Joanne Lockwood: do. Seven or eight years
Joanne Lockwood: ago, I was the person with the wind on my back,
Joanne Lockwood: cycling with the aid. And
Joanne Lockwood: one event, my gender transition, was my equivalent
Joanne Lockwood: of coming back the other way. And suddenly,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm now facing that wind in my face. I don't understand
Joanne Lockwood: what oppression is, what marginalisation is, what it's
Joanne Lockwood: like to be talked about in a negative
Joanne Lockwood: way or accused of things or judged in a way.
Joanne Lockwood: So what I do is I dig deep.
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose I look back at that pivot point in my life where I
Joanne Lockwood: went from being blind to being awake or woke, whatever you want to call that
Joanne Lockwood: word, to awake to what's going on. And that's why we do
Joanne Lockwood: what we do. That's why I do what I do is once you've
Joanne Lockwood: seen what's going on, once you're aware of what's going on,
Joanne Lockwood: you can't go back. You can't take the other pill and forget it all
Joanne Lockwood: again. You've made
Joanne Lockwood: that choice to expose yourself to what's going on.
Joanne Lockwood: So no matter how exhausting it is, I know it's more exhausting
Joanne Lockwood: for other people who are living it in
Joanne Lockwood: a harder way than I experience it. My life is relatively
Joanne Lockwood: privileged still. I'm still white. I've
Joanne Lockwood: still had a good education. I'm still British. I speak
Joanne Lockwood: the language of my country. I have a house, I have a
Joanne Lockwood: family. I have lots of things of privilege, and
Joanne Lockwood: I have one element of my, if you like, my characteristic, my personality, my
Joanne Lockwood: being, that is not so privileged. There are people
Joanne Lockwood: who have refugees. We have people migrating
Joanne Lockwood: into this country with nothing, not even a pair of
Joanne Lockwood: shoes, not even the language, not even a penny in their
Joanne Lockwood: pocket. They have a far
Joanne Lockwood: tougher time than I will ever experience. And I think
Joanne Lockwood: by being aware and having that compassion, that empathy, that humility,
Joanne Lockwood: all those kind of soft, emotional, intelligence type
Joanne Lockwood: skills, you can't unlearn that. I don't think I can unlearn that.
Joanne Lockwood: And so what keeps me going? Knowing that this
Joanne Lockwood: journey is infinite and there will be bumps on it, but we got
Joanne Lockwood: to keep on keeping on, because if I don't who.
Kaumudi Goda: Beautiful. That's so spot
Kaumudi Goda: on. So you must have noticed
Joanne Lockwood: in your work, over three
Joanne Lockwood: continents, there's obviously a different priority
Joanne Lockwood: in terms of dei work. So dei work
Joanne Lockwood: in India, in the global south, has a different
Joanne Lockwood: priority than maybe in the Netherlands, maybe in New York or
Joanne Lockwood: in North America.
Joanne Lockwood: Racism is big topic. North America
Joanne Lockwood: is it as big in the Netherlands, racism hopefully has
Joanne Lockwood: a different set of connotations. It's more about colonialism, maybe about education
Joanne Lockwood: in India and the south, or gay rights or
Joanne Lockwood: queer rights or things like that.
Joanne Lockwood: We all have different views on it. I remember talking to a person who was
Joanne Lockwood: based in Berlin, and the challenge they have around
Joanne Lockwood: racism is around the large Turkish population they
Joanne Lockwood: have. So it's not around black people, white people,
Joanne Lockwood: it's around racism against the Turkish
Joanne Lockwood: population of Germany. And that's a different perspective.
Joanne Lockwood: I also believe in the Netherlands, the words that Dutch people
Joanne Lockwood: use for black and white have different
Joanne Lockwood: connotations. So white means unwell pasty,
Joanne Lockwood: unhealthy. So they don't talk about black people and white people.
Joanne Lockwood: They use different language. So even the language in our
Joanne Lockwood: dei world is nuanced and the priorities are subtly
Joanne Lockwood: different and the challenges are different across the globe, aren't they? Absolutely.
Kaumudi Goda: I think it is very
Kaumudi Goda: integral to the culture, the ethos,
Kaumudi Goda: the philosophy of people towards
Kaumudi Goda: life. And so, for instance, having lived in
Kaumudi Goda: Singapore, it was very much a striver culture. Work
Kaumudi Goda: hard, martyr yourself at work. If
Kaumudi Goda: you stay till 08:00, Joanne, then I'm going to stay
Kaumudi Goda: till 930 to prove how sincere I am and how hardworking I
Kaumudi Goda: am. And it's infectious, that
Kaumudi Goda: attitude of strive hard and keep up.
Kaumudi Goda: And so each culture is different. For example, in
Kaumudi Goda: Indonesia, they have very much the approach that
Kaumudi Goda: it's a family, the way they eat, it's
Kaumudi Goda: communal eating, and that culture is everyone's family.
Kaumudi Goda: And so that attitude that a leader
Kaumudi Goda: of a team is almost like a parent figure for the
Kaumudi Goda: team. It informs the kind of decisions, their attitude towards
Kaumudi Goda: how they make policy choices. And it's very, very
Kaumudi Goda: different from culture where it's very
Kaumudi Goda: individualistic. In Netherlands, for instance, it's very individualistic, it's
Kaumudi Goda: very around individual freedoms and rights. I do what is right for
Kaumudi Goda: me. And so every corporate culture
Kaumudi Goda: is unique to that office in that region. And it's really important
Kaumudi Goda: to recognise that. I had, for
Kaumudi Goda: instance, a global organisation that was
Kaumudi Goda: needing to do some global work on
Kaumudi Goda: inclusion. And one of the plaintiff voices from
Kaumudi Goda: Asia was it's a peak period.
Kaumudi Goda: Everybody is working overtime, some of the places we
Kaumudi Goda: live, stepping out as a female or any
Kaumudi Goda: other vulnerable identity, late night
Kaumudi Goda: to take a long public transport, commute back home is
Kaumudi Goda: unsafe. And in this time, if you say
Kaumudi Goda: we're going to spend a day learning about Martin Luther King
Kaumudi Goda: and the history of racism in America, this
Kaumudi Goda: is not relevant to where I live and it is taking
Kaumudi Goda: me away from a very critical period. I'm
Kaumudi Goda: not going to get any time off for this. I'm not going to get any
Kaumudi Goda: leeway around my deliverables. You've made me unsafe, you've
Kaumudi Goda: stressed me out even more and it's not even relevant to me. Spend a
Kaumudi Goda: day studying the history of racism in another country, in the other end of
Kaumudi Goda: the world, and this is a reality. We need to come up
Kaumudi Goda: with ways in which the work we are doing is relevant to the
Kaumudi Goda: people we are trying to impact. In another instance, I was
Kaumudi Goda: advising an embassy, they were all talking about unconscious
Kaumudi Goda: bias and the security person was sitting at the same table
Kaumudi Goda: as a diplomat. And security person said, I'm holding a
Kaumudi Goda: gun and standing guard outside the embassy
Kaumudi Goda: of a foreign country in my home country. When someone
Kaumudi Goda: approaches the compound rapidly, I have a
Kaumudi Goda: split second to decide. Now, I cannot spend ten
Kaumudi Goda: minutes, kg, as you're suggesting, letting the fast
Kaumudi Goda: thought go by and the slow thinking kick in. I need to make a
Kaumudi Goda: split second decision because my job and the lives of everyone I'm guarding depend
Kaumudi Goda: on it. And therefore we cannot have blanket
Kaumudi Goda: training programmes and blanket advice and mechanisms.
Kaumudi Goda: We need to be sensitive to the context of that particular person, their
Kaumudi Goda: function, their level, their priorities, their deliverables,
Kaumudi Goda: their geographic location, their cultural influences. It's so
Kaumudi Goda: subtle and so varied and. That'S where someone's
Joanne Lockwood: ingrained bias becomes amplified
Joanne Lockwood: because they don't have the luxury or privilege, as
Joanne Lockwood: you say, to slow think. You are reacting in the moment. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's where our ingrained biases exist, those in the
Joanne Lockwood: moment decisions. So someone's skin colour, someone's
Joanne Lockwood: gender, someone's just
Joanne Lockwood: persona, their accent,
Joanne Lockwood: those drive, those instant decisions based on
Joanne Lockwood: that person's ingrained bias. And
Joanne Lockwood: that puts a perspective. It's different on
Joanne Lockwood: how people, their personal safety, their motivation, their
Joanne Lockwood: drivers to protect themselves will kick in. Whereas we, as
Joanne Lockwood: dei practitioners, in most organisations, we do talk about slowing
Joanne Lockwood: thinking down, bringing it to the prefrontal cortex, we talk about taking
Joanne Lockwood: it away from our reptilian brain, but that
Joanne Lockwood: is not a luxury that everybody has. That's a very interesting thought. And
Kaumudi Goda: as a person who works, and oftentimes my lens is informed by
Kaumudi Goda: compliance and risk assessment. If you think about whistleblowers,
Kaumudi Goda: people in the ecosystem speaking up for what's right or flagging
Kaumudi Goda: something that's going wrong, that's dysfunctional, the weight on that
Kaumudi Goda: person and the way that person assesses their ability and willingness to speak
Kaumudi Goda: up depends on what risks they are undertaking and
Kaumudi Goda: what they feel the system will do to them after. If you are
Kaumudi Goda: a person who is just feeling lucky to have that job, who
Kaumudi Goda: needs that job to make ends meet, to pay the rent cheque,
Kaumudi Goda: to provide food for the family, if you have responsibilities,
Kaumudi Goda: then chances are you're going to turn a blind eye
Kaumudi Goda: because you feel that system will not provide
Kaumudi Goda: any consequences for the person who has been flagged or the act that
Kaumudi Goda: is being flagged. Rather, the person who's speaking up will be punished. And we have
Kaumudi Goda: to be sensitive about that. It's very easy to tell that
Kaumudi Goda: single mom who needs that job very badly, well, why didn't you
Kaumudi Goda: speak up? Why did you put up with it? Why did you turn a blind
Kaumudi Goda: eye? Well, she didn't have a choice. Well, she perceived that she do not have
Kaumudi Goda: a choice if we sensitive to that
Kaumudi Goda: and find ways in which we can make that okay, level the playing
Kaumudi Goda: field, so to speak, if we truly want it. And there's so many
Kaumudi Goda: disadvantages to having dysfunctional workplaces
Kaumudi Goda: where people in the system do not feel empowered to speak up, to
Kaumudi Goda: flag what's going wrong. We've seen again and again, right,
Kaumudi Goda: Joanne, the submarine that exploded close to
Kaumudi Goda: Titanic, there were voices along the way
Kaumudi Goda: throughout the process of creating that vehicle that
Kaumudi Goda: said, this is something is terribly wrong. It's not going to work.
Kaumudi Goda: They were silenced. The same thing happened with many space
Kaumudi Goda: exploration projects as well. Billions of dollars were lost. I'm sure
Kaumudi Goda: you know this example very well because engineers had spoken up,
Kaumudi Goda: had said, this is not going to work. The mechanism is faulty, it's
Kaumudi Goda: vulnerable, and they were told to shut up because billions were
Kaumudi Goda: at stake and there's a deadline to be met, and please stop
Kaumudi Goda: quibbling about small details that nobody cares about. And
Kaumudi Goda: then the end result is tremendous, catastrophic loss
Kaumudi Goda: to everybody in the whole project. Yeah, that's
Joanne Lockwood: so true. And I think one thing the airline industry has learned over the
Joanne Lockwood: years is this radical candle where you do
Joanne Lockwood: speak up, you do challenge
Joanne Lockwood: it's a different culture. Whereas we look at some cultures, as you say, it's a
Joanne Lockwood: about book. We're hiding oppressing, keeping it down, because how can
Joanne Lockwood: we be seen to be failing? We have to achieve. We have to hit that
Joanne Lockwood: goal at any cost. Whereas the airline industry has
Joanne Lockwood: probably learnt that it can't do that anymore, and it's
Joanne Lockwood: safer now than it's ever been, because people call it out and they are listened
Joanne Lockwood: to. And I think that's really important in the HR, in the
Joanne Lockwood: people space. It's giving people that psychological safety,
Joanne Lockwood: knowing they will be heard, and it will be actioned not
Joanne Lockwood: buried. I'm a great
Kaumudi Goda: believer in the fact that there is no such thing as a legal entity. I'm
Kaumudi Goda: a lawyer. I know that there is a legal entity, there is a corporation, but
Kaumudi Goda: it's comprised of people. And therefore
Kaumudi Goda: my comfort level with conflict, the way I respond
Kaumudi Goda: to conflict, the way I respond to a difficult conversation, the way I
Kaumudi Goda: communicate when situations are awkward or uncomfortable,
Kaumudi Goda: absolutely informs the culture. It doesn't matter if I'm the
Kaumudi Goda: boss, if I'm an underling, whatever my position in
Kaumudi Goda: hierarchy might be. There is much to be
Kaumudi Goda: acknowledged about the power of a single person and therefore
Kaumudi Goda: understanding myself, understanding what triggers me. What's my response to
Kaumudi Goda: conflict? How do I choose to communicate? My
Kaumudi Goda: difficulty, my discomfort, my stance
Kaumudi Goda: on things informs the culture.
Kaumudi Goda: Likewise, the leader has a tremendous responsibility around having
Kaumudi Goda: space for difficult conversations, to engage in conflict in
Kaumudi Goda: productive ways. So you're absolutely right. Radical candour
Kaumudi Goda: and also maybe an understanding of ourselves and how
Kaumudi Goda: we hold that space for difficult conversation. 100%. You
Joanne Lockwood: said right at the beginning about that you don't feel that
Joanne Lockwood: you belong here there.
Joanne Lockwood: So I often talk about the difference between inclusion and belonging.
Joanne Lockwood: What's your take on the difference between inclusion and belonging and how do
Joanne Lockwood: you think you can find the magic of belonging? I think there's
Kaumudi Goda: loads of research on what creates that belonging. It's
Kaumudi Goda: certainly that final step of the pyramid of having
Kaumudi Goda: diversity around the table, having inclusive policies,
Kaumudi Goda: actions, behaviours mechanisms and systems and all
Kaumudi Goda: of that together creates that sense of belonging. For
Kaumudi Goda: me, my experience, personal experience, has been it's fairly straightforward. All of
Kaumudi Goda: us seek that sense of safety. Am I safe
Kaumudi Goda: to be myself with you? Am I safe to speak up my
Kaumudi Goda: truth and disagree with you where it's relevant,
Kaumudi Goda: or am I code switching and masking? And so once
Kaumudi Goda: that sense of safety is established and it's a
Kaumudi Goda: complex, ever evolving thing, isn't it? I have had conversations
Kaumudi Goda: with best friends I've known all my life where I wasn't able
Kaumudi Goda: to provide that psychological safety, because in that instant I got
Kaumudi Goda: triggered and I said something that's not supportive and that's it, it
Kaumudi Goda: fled. There's no longer psychological safety and suddenly we are all armoured up and
Kaumudi Goda: watching carefully around, watching our P's and Q's around each other. That can
Kaumudi Goda: happen in the oldest, most familiar friendships. And so
Kaumudi Goda: let's acknowledge that psychological safety is ever evolving, it's super
Kaumudi Goda: complex and every moment it changes
Kaumudi Goda: shape. Once that's established, then
Kaumudi Goda: if I am able to perform to my best,
Kaumudi Goda: because the systems, the processes, the policies are
Kaumudi Goda: encouraging me, motivating me, supporting me, inspiring me to do my best
Kaumudi Goda: work, and then I feel I'm rewarded for it. I'm seeing,
Kaumudi Goda: I'm acknowledged that I'm sincere, I'm hardworking, I get
Kaumudi Goda: benefits from it, but most of all, feeling a
Kaumudi Goda: deeper sense of purpose, that there is meaning to the work I do
Kaumudi Goda: and it's central to which way the boat is heading. I'm in this
Kaumudi Goda: boat with everybody else. My work is valued,
Kaumudi Goda: supported, rewarded, and we're all heading in the same direction.
Kaumudi Goda: Then all those things come together to create that sense of
Kaumudi Goda: belonging. I think, then I know this is my team, I'm going to fight for
Kaumudi Goda: it. Ultimately, we are doing some good in life. That's my personal experience.
Kaumudi Goda: I think everyone's formula for belonging might vary as
Kaumudi Goda: it should, and we should have conversation. I like that. I like that.
Joanne Lockwood: That's pretty good. I think that for me, that sums up that
Joanne Lockwood: essence. It's being a DeMask feel, that sense
Joanne Lockwood: of relaxedness safety. You say,
Joanne Lockwood: knowing that you're respected and loved
Joanne Lockwood: and that people have your back, those kind of things, all part of that. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Wow. We've been chatting for over an hour. Time has
Joanne Lockwood: flown and we could carry on talking all day, I'm sure. So
Joanne Lockwood: you've written a couple of books, you've got your own organisation
Joanne Lockwood: called The Human Conversation. Tell us more about that, how people can get hold of
Joanne Lockwood: you. I have a website I'm fairly active on, LinkedIn. My
Kaumudi Goda: organisation is called the Human Conversation. I'm based out of
Kaumudi Goda: Amsterdam, but I work across the world, as many of us do.
Kaumudi Goda: Joanne so if you have a need for a leadership
Kaumudi Goda: consultant, an advisor, a coach, a
Kaumudi Goda: trainer, I'm available. Hit me up and look forward to having
Kaumudi Goda: conversations. I have a question for you, if you have the time.
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne yeah, go for it. I was curious about what's one
Kaumudi Goda: thing that you have found evolved. You've evolved
Kaumudi Goda: on your thinking about one topic, where you were
Kaumudi Goda: on one point and then you're like, I'm at a different place on the same
Kaumudi Goda: topic. Now.
Joanne Lockwood: That'S a tricky one to answer, because I've evolved so
Joanne Lockwood: much in my thinking in the last seven or eight
Joanne Lockwood: years. It's hard, I think, to
Joanne Lockwood: put a finger on it. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think the reason I asked you about belonging, I think
Joanne Lockwood: one of the things that I did some self reflection and self analysis on
Joanne Lockwood: was around the sense of belonging and what makes the
Joanne Lockwood: difference between the difference between included and belonging. And
Joanne Lockwood: it started to click into place for me,
Joanne Lockwood: areas of my life where I was included, but I didn't feel
Joanne Lockwood: belonging. And it empowered me to make
Joanne Lockwood: choices, to move on from things
Joanne Lockwood: that didn't make me happy. So, in the green room before, I
Joanne Lockwood: mentioned the Icky guy and the four areas,
Joanne Lockwood: what I'm good at, what the world needs, what I can make money at,
Joanne Lockwood: and the important one for me is what I love. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think what I discovered was belongingness
Joanne Lockwood: in whatever I was doing was part of that. What I love
Joanne Lockwood: doing. If I didn't love it, if it wasn't ingrained in
Joanne Lockwood: me, that
Joanne Lockwood: quadrant became unbalanced. I wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: feeling, no matter how much I was getting paid,
Joanne Lockwood: no matter how much I was good at it, if I didn't love
Joanne Lockwood: it. And I think, so recognising what belonging meant,
Joanne Lockwood: it allowed me to step back and say, this isn't fulfilling me,
Joanne Lockwood: this isn't making my life better. I am performing, I
Joanne Lockwood: am forcing myself, covering,
Joanne Lockwood: masking, pretending, whatever it may be.
Joanne Lockwood: So I suppose that essence of Icky Guy and that
Joanne Lockwood: essence of belonging now tries to drive
Joanne Lockwood: me to do what I do. And
Joanne Lockwood: it also drives me to recognise what doesn't work for
Joanne Lockwood: me. So I'm not scared to step out and say, I'm sorry,
Joanne Lockwood: that doesn't work for me. That's not me. I don't feel it.
Joanne Lockwood: So I suppose that's my answer to your question.
Joanne Lockwood: Discovering belonging and what I
Joanne Lockwood: love, that's so powerful. I love that. And to be okay,
Kaumudi Goda: to say no, to walk away from spaces and conversations
Kaumudi Goda: that are not acceptable. That's beautiful, those boundaries,
Kaumudi Goda: right? Having those healthy boundaries spot on.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I get challenged. I'm a trans woman
Joanne Lockwood: in my late 50s. There's a lot of trans
Joanne Lockwood: critical views, transcritical rhetoric,
Joanne Lockwood: and people want to debate it. And
Joanne Lockwood: I've discovered I don't owe anybody an argument, I don't owe
Joanne Lockwood: anybody a justification, I don't owe anybody a defence.
Joanne Lockwood: So I'm quite comfortable saying,
Joanne Lockwood: I accept. We have dim perspectives, we're so
Joanne Lockwood: polarised, there's no way we can come to the centre of this table and have
Joanne Lockwood: a conversation. Therefore, I'm sorry, I don't owe you an argument.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't owe you a justification, because that's what you want to do. You want
Joanne Lockwood: to provoke me into an argument or justification where you want to win.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't need to be right. I don't need to win or lose. It
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't fulfil me. Why take part in this? So it's allowed me to
Joanne Lockwood: sort of step away from those. And when I see the negative language,
Joanne Lockwood: the negative comments, I'm able to
Joanne Lockwood: look at it very detached, very
Joanne Lockwood: pragmatic. And the phrase I use, I see it as
Joanne Lockwood: graffiti. So graffiti sprayed onto a wall.
Joanne Lockwood: It's anger expressed on a wall. It's
Joanne Lockwood: not at me. You have anger. You have something
Joanne Lockwood: that makes you different
Joanne Lockwood: perspective to me. You're spraying on a wall.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't have to look at it. I can drive past it, I can see
Joanne Lockwood: it and go, Whatever. I don't internalise it. I just see it for what
Joanne Lockwood: it is. It's anger expressed somewhere else.
Joanne Lockwood: So it allows me to reframe in that way. So I don't take things
Joanne Lockwood: to heart. Okay, yes, I accept my armour
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes gets pierced when I'm not ready, when I'm
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerable or I feel too relaxed. Sometimes it can
Joanne Lockwood: hit me. But mostly my self care, my resilience
Joanne Lockwood: kick in and I may need to hide for an hour or two and come
Joanne Lockwood: back. But mostly I can process that and go,
Joanne Lockwood: use my techniques, get out of this rut. It's just
Joanne Lockwood: graffiti, it's not personal. They don't know me and
Joanne Lockwood: then step away from it. So, yeah, I think all those
Joanne Lockwood: combination of things is what I've discovered about myself in the last
Joanne Lockwood: three, four, five. Years that's so important, that
Kaumudi Goda: those tools for self care and to just block out
Kaumudi Goda: negativity and harshness when it's all around us,
Kaumudi Goda: it's so hard. I love that you shared that. Thank
Kaumudi Goda: you. I'm going to carry this
Joanne Lockwood: on. This is my show. But I'm also conscious
Joanne Lockwood: that I can't put my fingers in my ear and bury my head in the
Joanne Lockwood: sand. So I'm not excluding and blocking out those
Joanne Lockwood: thoughts. I'm just processing them in a way
Joanne Lockwood: that I don't internalise. So I look at them, I understand them,
Joanne Lockwood: I recognise them. I hear your argument, I hear your debate, I
Joanne Lockwood: hear your view, but I don't want to engage in
Joanne Lockwood: it. So I'm not denying you to hold that view.
Joanne Lockwood: In fact, sometimes I actually spend. Time reading
Joanne Lockwood: critical views, not just about trans or gender identity,
Joanne Lockwood: but critical views around racism, critical views around other
Joanne Lockwood: characteristics, because I think you have to know what's going
Joanne Lockwood: on in the world, be able to process
Joanne Lockwood: it and say, no, that's not what I think. I've spent
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of time trying to do some research on the crisis going on in
Joanne Lockwood: Israel and Palestine and with Hamas. I don't have an answer. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know the answer. But what I do know is I don't know. So I
Joanne Lockwood: need to find out more. I have an opinion, and my opinion is
Joanne Lockwood: peace needs to win. People need to stop dying. People need to not
Joanne Lockwood: kill each other. People can't have their families, their lives, everything
Joanne Lockwood: ripped apart through conflict. That's what I stand
Joanne Lockwood: against. Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't solve that problem. But what I do know is, let's talk about peace.
Joanne Lockwood: Let's talk about resolving this. Let's talk about stopping people
Joanne Lockwood: dying. So that's my focus.
Joanne Lockwood: I do listen to perspectives. I don't shut them out, but I
Joanne Lockwood: do it in a way where I'm able
Joanne Lockwood: to process them and learn about things
Joanne Lockwood: and form my own model, if you like. In my head
Joanne Lockwood: around things and continually wanting to challenge it,
Joanne Lockwood: avoiding the confirmation, avoiding biases that I know I probably
Joanne Lockwood: hold, is deliberately trying to test myself to find
Joanne Lockwood: alternate theories, alternate solutions.
Joanne Lockwood: Probably my science background, my It background is you're always trying to look
Joanne Lockwood: for information, different information, things, different
Joanne Lockwood: solutions, different ways of working. So, yeah, I continue to challenge myself
Joanne Lockwood: in that way. Sorry, that's me going off on one left. And that
Kaumudi Goda: rigour is really important. That rigour and your
Kaumudi Goda: recognition of I thought you said it so beautifully when you said
Kaumudi Goda: you don't owe an argument to anybody. But for that
Kaumudi Goda: rigorous scientific processing of a complex
Kaumudi Goda: problem. And coming up with a response rather than
Kaumudi Goda: a mindless reaction needs a quiet
Kaumudi Goda: time where you are able to block out unnecessary
Kaumudi Goda: static and take in input, but
Kaumudi Goda: nevertheless have that moment for yourself where you can think through things and have
Kaumudi Goda: a thoughtful response to a situation that's absolutely important. In fact,
Kaumudi Goda: that's perhaps more important than being reactive to everything
Kaumudi Goda: and responding instantly to every noise that comes your way. You
Kaumudi Goda: don't owe an argument to anybody. I loved when you said that.
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's also a good trait for leaders
Joanne Lockwood: to approach, that you haven't got to have the answer now.
Joanne Lockwood: You don't have to respond now. You can hold the
Joanne Lockwood: space. You can say, Look, I need to think about that. You're right. There's some
Joanne Lockwood: challenges there. Give me half an hour. Let me
Joanne Lockwood: come up with some ideas. Let's get back after a cup of coffee, and let's
Joanne Lockwood: sit down when we're both ready for that conversation. And otherwise you do
Joanne Lockwood: tend to just go off on your first thought, your
Joanne Lockwood: first bias, your first reaction, and we need to be measured
Joanne Lockwood: and considered a lot of the time. Beautiful, in my humble
Joanne Lockwood: opinion, anyway. Kg, thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. Thank you. We could carry on all day, I know we could.
Joanne Lockwood: And hopefully one day we'll actually meet in person somewhere. Somewhere in
Joanne Lockwood: the world. And for you, the listeners, thank you for getting to the
Joanne Lockwood: end of this episode of the Inclusion Bytes Podcast. Please do
Joanne Lockwood: subscribe, if you're not already subscribed. And it's B-I-T-E-S.
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites. B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends tell your colleagues.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up, and I'm sure you'd be
Joanne Lockwood: equally inspired over the next few weeks and months. So this is episode 90.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not long till we turn 100. So hoping
Joanne Lockwood: that there's going to be a guest who's going to be magical for the
Joanne Lockwood: hundredth. Who knows, of course, that could be you being
Joanne Lockwood: a guest. So, yeah, please sign up. I welcome any
Joanne Lockwood: suggestions and feedback on how we can improve. To
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehapen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and
Joanne Lockwood: it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch
Joanne Lockwood: you next time. Bye.