WEBVTT 00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:07.556 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the 00:00:07.578 --> 00:00:11.284 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have 00:00:11.322 --> 00:00:15.152 interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation 00:00:15.216 --> 00:00:18.944 around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally 00:00:18.992 --> 00:00:21.780 making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:26.172 If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me nine 00:00:26.226 --> 00:00:26.684 to 00:00:26.802 --> 00:00:31.208 jo.lockwood@seechangehapen.co.uk. 00:00:31.384 --> 00:00:34.620 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.804 can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify 00:00:38.872 --> 00:00:42.668 and the usual places. So plug in 00:00:42.684 --> 00:00:46.192 your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. 00:00:46.246 --> 00:00:49.212 Today is Episode 91 00:00:49.276 --> 00:00:52.836 with the title"Beyond the Corporate 00:00:52.858 --> 00:00:56.548 Robot"". And I have the absolute honour and 00:00:56.554 --> 00:01:00.304 privilege to welcome Sam Warner. Sam 00:01:00.352 --> 00:01:04.016 is a neurodivergent communication specialist, and when I asked 00:01:04.058 --> 00:01:07.796 Sam to describe her superbach, she said, I'm blessed 00:01:07.828 --> 00:01:11.480 with the ability to take very complex subjects and 00:01:11.550 --> 00:01:14.650 simplify them when they need to be explained to others. 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:17.930 Hello, Sam. Welcome to the show. 00:01:18.460 --> 00:01:22.260 Hello. Hi. It's great to see you again. It 00:01:22.270 --> 00:01:24.910 seems only a week since we were in each other's company 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:28.700 in a medical centre place in Stoke. 00:01:29.520 --> 00:00:54.260 Indeed. I used to meet people in the most interesting places. Yes, 00:01:33.548 --> 00:01:36.784 it was very interesting. Nice car park, nice sandwiches. 00:01:36.822 --> 00:01:40.560 Lovely. Thank you. So, Sam,"Beyond 00:01:41.460 --> 00:01:44.036 The Corporate Robot"". That's intriguing. Tell me more. 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:48.116 I shall. So, around about 00:01:48.218 --> 00:01:51.430 2015, I left 00:01:51.880 --> 00:01:55.588 the world of corporate, and 00:01:55.754 --> 00:01:59.236 there's a really good reason why I left the world of corporate. 00:01:59.348 --> 00:02:03.096 And there'll be some people, I guess, who can relate to this. Maybe even you, 00:02:03.118 --> 00:02:05.530 Joe. I don't know where 00:02:07.820 --> 00:02:11.212 I felt like I was swimming up a river all the 00:02:11.266 --> 00:02:14.936 time and I was tired mentally 00:02:14.968 --> 00:02:18.796 and physically, and it was just really the whole 00:02:18.898 --> 00:02:22.696 square peg in a round hole. I can never seem to do right 00:02:22.738 --> 00:02:26.576 by everybody. If I'm doing right by that person, I'm doing wrong by the 00:02:26.598 --> 00:02:30.316 other. I can't play the political game. They all seem to be playing 00:02:30.348 --> 00:02:33.670 some sort of game and I haven't got the rules. And 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:39.140 I just got to that point where I was like, okay, I'm done. 00:02:39.290 --> 00:02:42.724 I can't play anymore, I'm out. You carry on playing on your 00:02:42.762 --> 00:02:45.370 own. I need to play a different game. 00:02:46.060 --> 00:02:49.844 And it's only after that, really, that I delved 00:02:49.892 --> 00:02:53.636 very deeply into why I might be feeling like that. I'd 00:02:53.668 --> 00:02:57.372 had some idea already for a few years, dabbled with the idea 00:02:57.426 --> 00:03:01.196 that I might be neurodivergent, which, if you're not 00:03:01.218 --> 00:03:04.620 familiar with neurodivergent, it's quite a new word, I guess 00:03:04.770 --> 00:03:07.544 it's autistic, it's ADHD dyslexia, 00:03:07.592 --> 00:03:10.684 dyspraxia, sensory processing 00:03:10.732 --> 00:03:14.370 disorders, all sorts of stuff like that. And 00:03:16.020 --> 00:03:19.676 as it turns out, when I explored that more and I researched 00:03:19.708 --> 00:03:23.444 it more and I'm really good at research, it became really 00:03:23.482 --> 00:03:27.332 apparent to me that I was wired up so differently to 00:03:27.386 --> 00:03:31.156 everyone else. It was as if it 00:03:31.178 --> 00:03:35.012 was as if, Jo, that you'd picked me up and popped me into japan 00:03:35.076 --> 00:03:38.756 and gone, off you pop, love. Work it out. Because that's 00:03:38.788 --> 00:03:42.552 how confusing it was. The different laws, the different 00:03:42.606 --> 00:03:46.024 ways that you're supposed to express respect to each 00:03:46.062 --> 00:03:49.576 other, the do's and the don'ts, all of that kind of 00:03:49.598 --> 00:03:53.176 stuff. And even just language in general. Because what I've 00:03:53.208 --> 00:03:56.364 discovered is people don't tend to mean what they say and say what they mean. 00:03:56.402 --> 00:03:59.456 It's all this sort of woolly kind of stuff. They were supposed to work it 00:03:59.478 --> 00:04:03.040 out, apparently, so that I found really challenging. 00:04:03.460 --> 00:04:07.068 And I'd reached my zenith, 00:04:07.244 --> 00:04:11.088 I'd reached the end of my tether. And then 00:04:11.174 --> 00:04:14.884 the epiphany I had was, well, there's loads of stuff 00:04:14.922 --> 00:04:18.644 I'm actually really, really good at and it just doesn't suit this corporate world. 00:04:18.682 --> 00:04:21.796 It's not that I can't work, it's that I can't work 00:04:21.978 --> 00:04:25.716 there. And I noticed that as I came from, my 00:04:25.738 --> 00:04:29.492 last job was in it for nearly nine years. I realised 00:04:29.556 --> 00:04:33.064 that there's lots of other people struggling in a similar way to 00:04:33.102 --> 00:04:36.584 me. And then these sort of ideas popped into my brain. They were 00:04:36.622 --> 00:04:40.196 hatching. And I've always loved coaching and teaching 00:04:40.228 --> 00:04:43.516 people very much on a side hustle kind of way. And I 00:04:43.538 --> 00:04:47.276 realised I should be doing this. This is the thing, this is why I'm 00:04:47.298 --> 00:04:51.056 here. If we've got to look for purpose in our lives, I need to 00:04:51.078 --> 00:04:54.656 use my talent to help other people understand 00:04:54.758 --> 00:04:58.544 all of this and thrive. And that's how come Get Your 00:04:58.582 --> 00:05:02.390 Message Across was truly kind of birthed into the world 00:05:03.400 --> 00:05:07.172 as an organisation. And so now I go into 00:05:07.226 --> 00:05:10.912 organisations and I help them to attract 00:05:10.976 --> 00:05:14.520 and retain neurodivergent talent, 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:18.408 to support them in a fantastic way. 00:05:18.494 --> 00:05:21.640 Reasonable adjustments, accommodations and adaptations, 00:05:22.380 --> 00:05:26.076 usually costing the company nothing, which is 00:05:26.098 --> 00:05:29.676 amazing and actually happy side effects. It 00:05:29.698 --> 00:05:33.356 benefits everybody, there's no losers. And then on the side of 00:05:33.378 --> 00:05:36.824 that, things come to you. I've ended up helping 00:05:36.872 --> 00:05:40.544 individuals who also want to do fantastically well at work 00:05:40.582 --> 00:05:44.384 and thrive, so it 00:05:44.422 --> 00:05:48.256 sort of exploded and I'm really happy about that. So, yeah, 00:05:48.358 --> 00:05:51.200 I'll stop talking so you can get a win in h waste. 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:55.830 Thank you. No, absolutely. Have a sip of coffee, that would do you good. 00:05:56.520 --> 00:06:00.276 I got to ask, have 00:06:00.298 --> 00:06:03.584 you had a diagnosis or are you self diagnosed or are you 00:06:03.642 --> 00:06:06.824 clinically diagnosed? So I have 00:06:06.862 --> 00:06:10.632 a clinical diagnosis. I got that last 00:06:10.686 --> 00:06:14.152 year because I saved up all my pennies and spent 1500 00:06:14.206 --> 00:06:17.036 pounds getting my Autistic and 00:06:17.218 --> 00:06:20.648 ADHD combined. Diagnosis. 00:06:20.744 --> 00:06:24.156 Yeah, that was obviously important to you, 00:06:24.258 --> 00:06:27.564 otherwise you wouldn't have invested so much money in it. So what was the big 00:06:27.602 --> 00:06:31.328 game changer? You knew, presumably, you were 00:06:31.334 --> 00:06:35.136 going into the diagnosis expecting to be diagnosed, you weren't going in there to be 00:06:35.158 --> 00:06:38.880 expected to be filed. No. You're not neurodiverse enough. 00:06:38.950 --> 00:06:42.636 Sorry. Yeah, exactly. That's why there's 00:06:42.748 --> 00:06:46.576 all this stuff in the news about so many people being diagnosed 00:06:46.608 --> 00:06:50.304 with ADHD. I'm like, yeah, because all the people who think they've got ADHD 00:06:50.352 --> 00:06:53.780 are going for diagnosis. Duh. It's expensive. 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.176 But for me it was validation. So even though I was 00:06:59.198 --> 00:07:03.032 99.9% certain because of all the research I'd done 00:07:03.086 --> 00:07:06.570 anyway and met so many people like me, 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:10.876 there was that 0.1% of me that had impostor syndrome that 00:07:10.898 --> 00:07:13.964 kept going how can you be doing this for other people? How can you call 00:07:14.002 --> 00:07:17.756 yourself the neurodivergent communication specialist if 00:07:17.778 --> 00:07:21.456 you can't prove that you're neurodivergent? What if someone asks you 00:07:21.478 --> 00:07:25.196 for proof? And that was always like this nagging little elf 00:07:25.228 --> 00:07:28.544 on my shoulder. So I flicked the elf off my 00:07:28.582 --> 00:07:32.404 shoulder and I've got it. Not one person 00:07:32.442 --> 00:07:36.052 has ever asked to see my diagnosis. But I did cry for 3 hours 00:07:36.106 --> 00:07:38.500 afterwards because they were validated. 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.824 I felt a bit similar when I was diagnosed as 00:07:44.862 --> 00:07:48.564 trans psychologist and I got my letter 00:07:48.612 --> 00:07:51.224 saying DSM 64 one 00:07:51.422 --> 00:07:55.050 transsexual tick and it was kind of like 00:07:55.820 --> 00:07:59.484 so what? Thank you for telling me something I know already. But 00:07:59.522 --> 00:08:03.244 it was validation. I think that's the whole reason that I and many 00:08:03.282 --> 00:08:07.036 others who are trans, obviously you're neurodiverse or whatever it may 00:08:07.058 --> 00:08:10.832 be, is you want someone to say you're not making 00:08:10.886 --> 00:08:14.508 this shit up almost. This is real, it's 00:08:14.524 --> 00:08:18.348 tangible and it's me. Oh, definitely. And there's 00:08:18.364 --> 00:08:21.200 a real stigma for people who are self 00:08:21.270 --> 00:08:24.980 diagnosed for often gatekeeping by 00:08:25.050 --> 00:08:28.868 diagnosed individuals. Weirdly, even though we're all supposed to 00:08:28.874 --> 00:08:32.596 be part of the same community and supporting each other and you're like, 00:08:32.618 --> 00:08:36.392 hang on a minute, I don't think you've thought about this before 00:08:36.446 --> 00:08:40.264 diving in and attacking someone or accusing them of not being 00:08:40.302 --> 00:08:44.136 diagnosed, therefore not really neurodivergent. Oh no, 00:08:44.318 --> 00:08:47.720 neurodivergent enough. You're not a real neurodivergent. You're pretend 00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:52.588 letter from your mom. And for a 00:08:52.594 --> 00:08:56.172 lot of people it's really hard to get diagnosed. I mean, there's some 00:08:56.226 --> 00:08:59.996 shocking statistics at the moment for trying to be on waiting lists. 00:09:00.188 --> 00:09:03.808 I think I won't name it, but there's one county in 00:09:03.894 --> 00:09:07.570 the UK and their waiting list is seven years. 00:09:09.780 --> 00:09:12.630 I think trans people have it hard because we're looking at 00:09:13.400 --> 00:09:16.676 about six or seven years for first appointment. So yeah, not too 00:09:16.698 --> 00:09:20.276 dissimilar. So many 00:09:20.298 --> 00:09:24.116 parallels because the trans community, we have people who 00:09:24.138 --> 00:09:27.988 are policing people saying, well, unless you got diagnosis, you're not trans enough, you're 00:09:28.004 --> 00:09:31.736 not proper trans person, you're just making it up. It's like it's incredible how we 00:09:31.758 --> 00:09:35.048 do that. My goodness. No, I know 00:09:35.134 --> 00:09:35.770 actually. 00:09:39.980 --> 00:09:43.688 Your respective my respective communities, we're 00:09:43.704 --> 00:09:47.516 about gatekeeping and policing and then the pathway to 00:09:47.538 --> 00:09:50.672 proper diagnosis is either go 00:09:50.726 --> 00:09:53.840 private or sit in the queue 00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:58.384 knowing there's something not right or knowing that you need some validation and 00:09:58.422 --> 00:10:01.792 you have to wait six, seven years. I guess even best 00:10:01.846 --> 00:10:05.088 case, it's going to be four or five years. Even if you get really lucky 00:10:05.104 --> 00:10:08.230 with your postcode. Oh, yeah, for sure. And 00:10:08.680 --> 00:10:12.516 there's another twist to the whole private thing. So for a lot 00:10:12.538 --> 00:10:15.876 of people, particularly with ADHD, 00:10:16.068 --> 00:10:19.144 which for some people sometimes 00:10:19.262 --> 00:10:23.108 medication can help. I'm being very clear that that's 00:10:23.124 --> 00:10:26.916 not. A given written or something like that, is it? All sorts 00:10:26.948 --> 00:10:30.644 of things. They normally give written children, because why. Wouldn'T you give the Bart 00:10:30.692 --> 00:10:34.284 Simpson sort. Of pill or whatever it is to children? That sounds 00:10:34.322 --> 00:10:37.276 wizard, doesn't it? And then, funny enough, when they get to 18, they can't have 00:10:37.298 --> 00:10:40.400 it anymore because it's a controlled substance. 00:10:42.020 --> 00:10:45.728 Yeah, let's not go down that road. But the medication thing 00:10:45.894 --> 00:10:49.580 is, the point I'm making in that if you go down the private 00:10:49.660 --> 00:10:53.396 diagnosis route, you then have to pay for 00:10:53.418 --> 00:10:57.236 your medication privately for the first two years. And it's like 00:10:57.258 --> 00:11:01.044 200 pounds a month until the NHS will 00:11:01.082 --> 00:11:04.808 agree, hopefully, to take you over so that you 00:11:04.814 --> 00:11:07.770 can have a normal prescription like everyone else has. 00:11:08.140 --> 00:11:11.896 So it's more than just 00:11:11.998 --> 00:11:15.832 scraping together the money you need for your diagnosis. It has 00:11:15.886 --> 00:11:19.608 wider implications financially. It's two and a half thousand pounds a year 00:11:19.694 --> 00:11:23.244 for the meds, isn't it? That's what you're saying as well. It's just horrendous. So 00:11:23.282 --> 00:11:26.748 two year cost is 5000 plus 1500 at six and a half thousand pounds for 00:11:26.754 --> 00:11:30.444 your first two years of being yourself and having been 00:11:30.482 --> 00:11:34.220 validated. And so the whole diagnosis thing becomes a privilege 00:11:34.300 --> 00:11:38.096 for people who can afford and that's why they go, 00:11:38.118 --> 00:11:41.620 oh, is this a big epidemic of people being diagnosed? What's going on? 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:45.204 No. So we've only been diagnosing autism since about 00:11:45.242 --> 00:11:48.436 1980. Shockingly. And we've only been 00:11:48.458 --> 00:11:52.276 diagnosing ADHD since 1968, and that 00:11:52.298 --> 00:11:53.510 was mainly men 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:59.216 and children rather than adults. 00:11:59.408 --> 00:12:03.156 Hyperactive kids, really, isn't it? Disruptive kids? Effectively, yeah. 00:12:03.258 --> 00:12:07.084 There was a real belief that you grew out of it, which is just interesting 00:12:07.202 --> 00:12:10.792 to me, shall we say, was. A bottom set in our schools, 00:12:10.856 --> 00:12:14.332 where there was a whole group of young children or 00:12:14.386 --> 00:12:17.804 children who were the no hopers. They were 00:12:17.842 --> 00:12:21.164 either unsuccessful in exams or 00:12:21.202 --> 00:12:24.976 academically or they would lark around, they were uncontrollable. So the 00:12:24.998 --> 00:12:28.652 bottom set was always the they can go and play with the toys 00:12:28.716 --> 00:12:31.456 all day because there's nothing else we can do with them and just trying to 00:12:31.558 --> 00:12:35.350 teach them what they can. Otherwise they were forgotten children. And just 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.156 I hate to use the word, but labelled as thick or stupid. And that was 00:12:39.178 --> 00:12:43.008 kind of disruptive r word that we don't 00:12:43.024 --> 00:12:46.184 use anymore. Oh, yes. No, the R word. Yeah, we don't use that 00:12:46.222 --> 00:12:49.880 anymore. Which nickel stupid? Either, but yeah, 00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:53.736 the R word, indeed. They would have found that they had 00:12:53.758 --> 00:12:57.544 talents in other areas that just simply weren't academic. And there were people 00:12:57.582 --> 00:13:01.356 like me who were academically gifted. I was able 00:13:01.378 --> 00:13:05.036 to follow the rules and do what I was told, and 00:13:05.138 --> 00:13:08.956 I found the work really easy because I have really logical brain. So you 00:13:08.978 --> 00:13:12.576 just follow what it says and there you go. Bob's your uncle. But I was 00:13:12.598 --> 00:13:16.012 bored, bored out of my head. I wasn't stimulated. There was no curiosity 00:13:16.076 --> 00:13:19.712 fostered, if you could wind the world back 00:13:19.766 --> 00:13:23.364 40 OD years. I'd have loved to have gone to a Montessori school or something 00:13:23.402 --> 00:13:26.916 like that. That fosters that kind of creative thinking, that 00:13:26.938 --> 00:13:30.516 curiosity, that's exactly the kind of teaching that I 00:13:30.538 --> 00:13:33.556 needed not learn this and then 00:13:33.738 --> 00:13:37.384 regurgitate it in a year's time for over 4 00:13:37.422 --> 00:13:41.016 hours at a desk where you can't talk to anyone. Oh yeah, that's an 00:13:41.038 --> 00:13:44.744 exam. Right. So where in my working life will 00:13:44.782 --> 00:13:47.550 I ever have to do this again? Oh, never. 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.028 What? Doesn't make any sense to 00:13:52.034 --> 00:13:55.784 me at all. At all. So I flew under the radar 00:13:55.832 --> 00:13:59.356 in school because I was a good girl and I did as I was told 00:13:59.538 --> 00:14:03.072 and admittedly I was still a bit of a handful. So I was board 00:14:03.126 --> 00:14:06.944 monitor, milk monitor, playground monitor, and they were trying 00:14:06.982 --> 00:14:10.096 to keep me busy because of my 00:14:10.118 --> 00:14:13.316 hyperactivity, so I get 00:14:13.338 --> 00:14:16.900 it, I'd probably do that as well if I was my teacher, 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.276 but I'd read all the books in the library, they didn't know what to do 00:14:22.298 --> 00:14:25.364 with me. Now, the boys who were academically 00:14:25.412 --> 00:14:28.996 gifted were put up a year, not the girls 00:14:29.028 --> 00:14:31.988 though. Oh no, you have to stay with your peers. 00:14:32.164 --> 00:14:35.704 Why? I don't have any 00:14:35.742 --> 00:14:39.512 friends, in case you hadn't noticed, 00:14:39.656 --> 00:14:41.230 I'm always on my own. 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:46.508 Yes. So you weren't hanging out with the boys and in the 00:14:46.514 --> 00:14:49.710 playground and doing hopscotch or handstands against the 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:53.710 no, no. I was frequently to be found on my own 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:57.868 making up stories in my head. Gosh. I 00:14:57.874 --> 00:15:01.396 don't know if you ever did this as a kid, Joe, but we used to 00:15:01.418 --> 00:15:05.136 get part of a stocking and a tennis ball. And you put the tennis 00:15:05.168 --> 00:15:08.948 ball in the stocking and you stand against a wall, and then 00:15:09.034 --> 00:15:11.668 you hold one end of the stocking and you kind of throw the ball, and 00:15:11.674 --> 00:15:15.044 it goes doof doof, doof, doof, doof either side of you. And then you can 00:15:15.082 --> 00:15:17.768 do it between your legs and above your head, and you try and do all 00:15:17.774 --> 00:15:20.570 sorts of things with it. I did that a lot. 00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:25.576 I remember that, people away from you. If 00:15:25.598 --> 00:15:29.210 I've got too close, you could. Yeah, they're going to get hit by it. Yeah, 00:15:30.880 --> 00:15:34.476 dear, the silly days. Definitely in the East End of London it 00:15:34.498 --> 00:15:37.150 progressed to a snooker ball in the stocking, doesn't it? 00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:46.176 I would throw myself at whatever extracurricular activities I could, 00:15:46.198 --> 00:15:49.936 so even in primary school we would do like a bit of music and 00:15:49.958 --> 00:15:53.296 dance or something, or a little play, and I'd be the first one with my 00:15:53.318 --> 00:15:56.836 hand up going be meep, me, pick me, pick me. Because I was desperate for 00:15:56.858 --> 00:16:00.672 stimulation and desperate to be involved and feel like I was useful 00:16:00.736 --> 00:16:02.820 and nourished and mentally 00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:07.864 and then I went to grammar school and I thought, I thought 00:16:07.902 --> 00:16:11.416 everyone at grammar school was going to want to be at school and want to 00:16:11.438 --> 00:16:15.256 learn and be like me. Turns out that's not what it 00:16:15.278 --> 00:16:18.744 was like at all. It was just the kids that passed the Eleven 00:16:18.792 --> 00:16:22.636 Plus. Who probably had the privilege of 00:16:22.658 --> 00:16:26.284 parents who pushed them through it as well and motivated them. Yeah, 00:16:26.322 --> 00:16:29.340 or they were just bright, but they were still horrible. 00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:34.590 Horribly, horribly bullied through school. Hated every second of school 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.896 people. Oh, yes, it's really good. Even if it wasn't good for you, 00:16:38.918 --> 00:16:42.576 you would have learned some really valuable lessons. Yeah, I know 00:16:42.598 --> 00:16:46.244 which people to stay away from. I know where the good places are to 00:16:46.282 --> 00:16:49.904 hide. And I ended up playing bridge with the math 00:16:49.952 --> 00:16:53.590 teachers at lunchtime to get away from the children. 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:01.064 I mean, what 13 year old plays bridge with the math teachers at 00:17:01.102 --> 00:17:04.392 school? Yeah, we used to play 00:17:04.446 --> 00:17:08.136 chess in our break title. We used to have chess sets and magnetic 00:17:08.168 --> 00:17:11.916 chess to sit outside under the shelters whenever I 00:17:11.938 --> 00:17:14.824 was playing football. Me and a couple of friends used to play chess every lunchtime, 00:17:14.872 --> 00:17:18.540 things like that. But 00:17:18.690 --> 00:17:22.384 my school career, I suppose if I look back on it, I was really 00:17:22.422 --> 00:17:25.840 polarised. So if you looked at my school report, I was either 00:17:25.910 --> 00:17:29.392 A or E. There were subjects I was always 00:17:29.446 --> 00:17:33.088 E and there were the classes I got thrown out of. I had to 00:17:33.094 --> 00:17:35.828 stand in the corner of my hands on my head. There were the ones I 00:17:35.834 --> 00:17:39.296 was disruptive mainly, so things like French, 00:17:39.328 --> 00:17:43.156 geography, history, all those kind of like those sort 00:17:43.178 --> 00:17:46.840 of subjects mass physics, science I was always on the A side. 00:17:46.990 --> 00:17:50.776 And when it came to my exams, I think 00:17:50.798 --> 00:17:54.600 I sat nine GCE at the time, back in the 00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:58.280 early eighty s, and I got five and I did five 00:17:58.350 --> 00:18:02.040 as a walk on part. I don't remember actually revising 00:18:02.120 --> 00:18:05.964 at all. I just walked into Math physics. I only got 00:18:06.002 --> 00:18:09.836 B's, but if I'd have tried I tried to get A's. Yeah. And I was 00:18:09.858 --> 00:18:13.616 completely polarised. Of course. My parents just saw the left hand column, the 00:18:13.638 --> 00:18:17.264 E's. They didn't see the A's. No one twigged and said, give 00:18:17.302 --> 00:18:21.056 this person stimulation on this column and don't try and stimulate them 00:18:21.078 --> 00:18:24.796 in that column because it's not going to work. And that hasn't changed. 00:18:24.908 --> 00:18:28.756 We're 30, 40 years later, and kids are still being trained to look 00:18:28.778 --> 00:18:31.764 at, oh, look, you got a D in such and such. Never mind your ten 00:18:31.802 --> 00:18:35.588 A stars, you got you've got a D in history. They might hate history, they 00:18:35.594 --> 00:18:39.096 might not like the teacher. There could be any number of reasons why history is 00:18:39.118 --> 00:18:42.250 not working out for them, so don't force them to do history. 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:46.890 But as it happens, I'm actually quite interested in history today. 00:18:48.460 --> 00:18:51.932 I'm interested in it because it intrigues me now. I actually care about it now 00:18:51.986 --> 00:18:55.596 about the intricacies and the detail of it. But then I 00:18:55.698 --> 00:18:59.504 didn't care about Egyptians. Well, yeah, and we did World War 00:18:59.542 --> 00:19:03.264 II. Okay. I think it's important for us to learn about 00:19:03.302 --> 00:19:06.240 those kind of things, but the teacher was awful. 00:19:07.060 --> 00:19:10.336 It wasn't that he wasn't knowledgeable, he was 00:19:10.518 --> 00:19:13.300 let's call him quite the character. 00:19:14.040 --> 00:19:17.572 He used to walk around with a cane that he did not 00:19:17.626 --> 00:19:21.476 need to walk, it was a prop and he 00:19:21.498 --> 00:19:25.268 would whack it on the desk right next to your hand 00:19:25.434 --> 00:19:28.856 and tell us how he'd come from a boarding school where he was allowed to 00:19:28.878 --> 00:19:32.616 hit the kids and all this kind of stuff. He 00:19:32.638 --> 00:19:35.864 was there to terrify us and enjoyed every second of it. Is it any wonder 00:19:35.902 --> 00:19:39.390 my history grade was not good? Really? 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.628 Yeah. I've still got the dent in my forehead from a geography teacher in the 00:19:43.634 --> 00:19:47.416 board. Rubber. Yeah. He used to throw chalk 00:19:47.448 --> 00:19:51.180 and stuff at us as well. Yeah. I sat in the front row because 00:19:51.330 --> 00:19:54.496 and this is before I knew about ADHD or anything like that, but I found 00:19:54.518 --> 00:19:58.156 it really distracting if I could see the other kids in the class, like lucking 00:19:58.188 --> 00:20:01.264 about and doing all that stuff. So I found if I sat in the front, 00:20:01.302 --> 00:20:04.816 I could block out most of the class and try and 00:20:04.838 --> 00:20:08.512 concentrate on the teacher and I used to tell people it's because I wore glasses. 00:20:08.576 --> 00:20:12.196 Wasn't that until I could see fine. I mean, I did have glasses, but it 00:20:12.218 --> 00:20:15.976 was a great way of explaining why I wanted to sit at the front all 00:20:15.998 --> 00:20:18.490 the time. Yeah. 00:20:20.300 --> 00:20:23.976 You talked about your diagnosis and I talked about my transiness diagnosis, if you 00:20:23.998 --> 00:20:27.704 like. I've often considered am I on some 00:20:27.742 --> 00:20:31.588 kind of neurodevelopment spectrum? Probably hyper focusing, 00:20:31.764 --> 00:20:35.452 the hypertensive type stuff, rather than the 00:20:35.586 --> 00:20:39.070 disruptive element these days. So I obsess over things, 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.188 so I have to pull it apart, put it together, put it apart, put it 00:20:42.194 --> 00:20:45.084 together, pull it apart, put it together, pull it apart, get together. Right. Board now. 00:20:45.122 --> 00:20:48.830 Next thing, pull it apart. So I've got a whole pile of things I've done. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.444 I very, really revisit once I've done them, I've done them. I've kind of 00:20:53.482 --> 00:20:57.072 loaded the module in my head sort of thing. But I suppose 00:20:57.136 --> 00:21:00.790 having been through the process to get diagnosed as trans, 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:05.556 I don't need someone else, I've realised I don't need validation anymore. I just 00:21:05.578 --> 00:21:09.224 need to know that it doesn't matter. I don't need to identify as 00:21:09.262 --> 00:21:12.948 or have a diagnosis as if I am, I am. If I'm not, I'm 00:21:12.964 --> 00:21:16.636 not. If I'm not quite enough, it doesn't matter to me. I've learned to 00:21:16.658 --> 00:21:17.630 cope with myself. 00:21:21.360 --> 00:21:24.956 I think you're kind of the same as me in a way, in 00:21:24.978 --> 00:21:27.950 that you like to sort of 00:21:28.800 --> 00:21:32.208 this might not be the right way. I'm saying this so I quite like the 00:21:32.214 --> 00:21:36.000 idea that I'm holding up a torch and I'm saying, Look, 00:21:36.070 --> 00:21:39.744 I've got an idea how we can do this, the whole being 00:21:39.782 --> 00:21:43.456 a human thing. Come with me and I'll show you what 00:21:43.478 --> 00:21:47.308 I know kind of thing. And I kind of get that feeling that you're like 00:21:47.334 --> 00:21:49.876 that too. It's not that you know it all and you've got all of the 00:21:49.898 --> 00:21:53.350 answers, it's just, look, come with me, I know some stuff and it might help. 00:21:53.740 --> 00:21:57.496 Yeah. My brain's been processing this in 00:21:57.518 --> 00:22:01.130 the background for like, 30 or 40 years, and 00:22:02.140 --> 00:22:05.832 I've got 30 or 40 years worth of analysis that's occurred in my head. 00:22:05.966 --> 00:22:09.704 So things very rarely pop out without a lot of deep 00:22:09.752 --> 00:22:13.256 thinking. And I've learned to realise that what I've got to be careful 00:22:13.288 --> 00:22:17.036 of is I spit out my mouth as a 00:22:17.058 --> 00:22:20.908 complete idea, forgetting that nobody else has had the backstory. So I've 00:22:20.914 --> 00:22:23.970 got to start sometimes I've got to wind myself back and go, okay, 00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:28.288 then there were dinosaurs. Dinosaurs died out through a meteor. Then we got to go 00:22:28.454 --> 00:22:31.650 and eventually we get to the point where Joe has this idea, 00:22:32.420 --> 00:22:35.860 okay, we're all up to the same page now. Yeah. Otherwise 00:22:37.560 --> 00:22:41.028 Marie, my wife, often says to me, what are you thinking about? And I go 00:22:41.114 --> 00:22:44.630 nothing. I've just shut down my external senses because something, 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.736 the processing is going on the back of my head somewhere. I'm not aware of 00:22:47.758 --> 00:22:51.544 what's going on, it's just conjugating and processing. And if you keep talking 00:22:51.582 --> 00:22:55.416 to me, I have to keep stopping, pressing pause, bringing myself back 00:22:55.438 --> 00:22:59.228 into the conscious and impulsive self again and then carrying on the processing. So, 00:22:59.314 --> 00:23:03.100 yeah, I do a lot of staring into space processing, 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.692 trying to simulate ideas and put them together and come up with 00:23:07.746 --> 00:23:11.536 thoughts I see in pictures. And everything I do 00:23:11.558 --> 00:23:14.956 is around navigating the world as a virtual 00:23:15.068 --> 00:23:18.528 world in my head. I process everything in that sort of way. 00:23:18.694 --> 00:23:22.452 That's cool because I have aphantasia, so I don't see pictures at all. 00:23:22.506 --> 00:23:26.276 You don't see pictures? Wow. And I'm a professional artist, so write that 00:23:26.298 --> 00:23:30.068 one out. So think of an 00:23:30.074 --> 00:23:33.712 elephant. You're going, what? Well, no, I have a knowing 00:23:33.776 --> 00:23:37.556 of an elephant, right? I have seen an elephant. I 00:23:37.578 --> 00:23:40.824 could draw an elephant for you and it wouldn't be very 00:23:40.862 --> 00:23:44.584 rudimentary, it would look like an elephant, but I do not 00:23:44.622 --> 00:23:48.168 see an elephant. When I close my eyes, there is no picture 00:23:48.264 --> 00:23:51.596 there. It's just sort of I've got this. 00:23:51.618 --> 00:23:55.324 Tachyoderm in a waterhole in Africa somewhere with its 00:23:55.362 --> 00:23:59.116 trunk and this little baby elephant next to it, and there's lions. I've got the 00:23:59.138 --> 00:24:02.530 whole picture, the whole serengeti's out there. It's going on there now. 00:24:03.780 --> 00:24:07.084 And yeah. So places I've been to multiple 00:24:07.132 --> 00:24:10.704 times, particularly rooms, I can 00:24:10.742 --> 00:24:14.272 draw for you from memory accurately and 00:24:14.326 --> 00:24:18.036 with all full perspective, with all of the detail in it. Like 00:24:18.058 --> 00:24:21.796 if there was a window open, usually the window will be open. If there was 00:24:21.818 --> 00:24:25.588 a broken something, that'll be in it. If there's a door in a 00:24:25.594 --> 00:24:29.304 kitchen that's not quite hung, right, that'll be there, because my 00:24:29.342 --> 00:24:32.916 memory remembers it latches. Onto difference or latches 00:24:32.948 --> 00:24:35.610 onto the unique or 00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:39.704 something that's not quite right. So you spot those things as opposed 00:24:39.752 --> 00:24:43.196 to you're optimising out, the defaults spot, the 00:24:43.218 --> 00:24:46.936 difference games. I'm really good at that kind of stuff. I'm 00:24:46.968 --> 00:24:50.636 really good at things like pattern recognition and do you remember, like, 00:24:50.658 --> 00:24:54.380 52 card pickup with the playing cards face 00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:58.236 down? And the idea is that you'd got to find the pairs. Have 00:24:58.258 --> 00:25:02.004