WEBVTT 00:00:02.010 --> 00:00:05.726 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for 00:00:05.748 --> 00:00:09.326 the Inclusion Bytes podcast. In this series, I have 00:00:09.348 --> 00:00:13.086 interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around 00:00:13.108 --> 00:00:16.794 the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally 00:00:16.842 --> 00:00:19.870 making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 00:00:20.610 --> 00:00:24.158 If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a 00:00:24.164 --> 00:00:24.622 line to 00:00:24.676 --> 00:00:29.138 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 00:00:29.314 --> 00:00:32.534 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot 00:00:32.652 --> 00:00:36.354 co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous 00:00:36.402 --> 00:00:39.654 shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual 00:00:39.702 --> 00:00:42.730 places. So plug in your headphones, 00:00:43.150 --> 00:00:46.220 grab a decaf and let's get going. 00:00:47.550 --> 00:00:50.460 Today is episode 92 00:00:51.090 --> 00:00:54.430 with the title Listening, not fixing, 00:00:55.250 --> 00:00:58.826 and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Greg 00:00:58.858 --> 00:01:02.442 Wasserman. Greg describes himself as the head of community, 00:01:02.596 --> 00:01:06.082 partnerships and growth for an AI startup called 00:01:06.136 --> 00:01:09.666 Castmagic. When I asked Greg to describe his 00:01:09.688 --> 00:01:12.734 superpower, he said he is a gladwelling 00:01:12.782 --> 00:01:16.034 superconnector, someone who spreads 00:01:16.162 --> 00:01:19.638 ideas. Hello, Greg. Welcome to the show. 00:01:19.804 --> 00:01:23.526 Pleasure to be here. Great to join in with your 00:01:23.548 --> 00:01:27.014 audience. Thanks, Greg. We've chatted a bit 00:01:27.052 --> 00:01:30.858 on slack via the cast magic community, so I 00:01:30.864 --> 00:01:34.666 kind of feel like I've known you before we connected today. So absolute pleasure to 00:01:34.688 --> 00:01:37.930 finally meet you logically, physically, virtually, in person, 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:41.834 whatever. So, Greg, reading through the show 00:01:41.872 --> 00:01:45.646 notes, you pulled together ahead of this, and I put out the title listening, not 00:01:45.668 --> 00:01:49.406 fixing. So what does that mean to you? Why is that important to you? I 00:01:49.428 --> 00:01:53.154 mean, there's so many ways to think about this, and 00:01:53.272 --> 00:01:57.106 I think we have a fix it culture and if we now take 00:01:57.128 --> 00:02:00.834 a step back, how did I actually get to this point of a 00:02:00.872 --> 00:02:02.130 fix it culture? 00:02:05.110 --> 00:02:08.886 I guess if we get raw, and this is what I love about 00:02:08.908 --> 00:02:12.630 the show is a year ago I entered a programme 00:02:12.700 --> 00:02:15.942 for rehab. Truly was not wanting to be 00:02:15.996 --> 00:02:19.398 here. This is the first time I'm joyfully 00:02:19.494 --> 00:02:23.114 sharing this message with your community because I 00:02:23.152 --> 00:02:26.970 say joyfully because it is a message that I think others 00:02:27.040 --> 00:02:30.874 need to hear. Because I was in a dark 00:02:30.922 --> 00:02:34.766 place and I got there because we have 00:02:34.788 --> 00:02:38.410 a fix it culture. I grew up in an amazing hoUsehold. 00:02:38.490 --> 00:02:42.186 Love my family, unbelievable parents, showed 00:02:42.218 --> 00:02:45.602 nothing but love. And the problem we have 00:02:45.656 --> 00:02:49.406 is the lens that we look through is not necessarily 00:02:49.438 --> 00:02:52.994 the lens that other people are intending us to look through. 00:02:53.112 --> 00:02:56.902 And no one actually understands that. So if you're like, everything 00:02:56.956 --> 00:03:00.694 was done with love, doesn't mean that it can't hurt. And 00:03:00.732 --> 00:03:03.970 so if we have a fix it culture, the fix it culture 00:03:04.050 --> 00:03:06.982 is we ourselves are in 00:03:07.036 --> 00:03:10.280 discomfort when someone shares a problem 00:03:11.630 --> 00:03:14.460 we want to fix that, we want to solve that. 00:03:15.390 --> 00:03:18.460 So instead of understanding that a person 00:03:18.990 --> 00:03:22.400 is just sharing that, they are 00:03:23.010 --> 00:03:26.814 in a position to feel comfortable with you, and they're like, I'm just 00:03:26.852 --> 00:03:30.574 sharing this now. We also don't, as a 00:03:30.612 --> 00:03:34.206 society, say, hey, I want to share something with you. 00:03:34.308 --> 00:03:37.700 I don't need you to respond. I just want you to listen. 00:03:38.310 --> 00:03:41.506 Maybe as a society, we need to start doing that as well. So there's a 00:03:41.528 --> 00:03:45.298 duality to this. If we can start training people to go, 00:03:45.384 --> 00:03:49.126 I want you to listen, and the other side to go, what 00:03:49.148 --> 00:03:52.520 do you need me to do with this information? I feel 00:03:53.050 --> 00:03:56.246 we will start improving as a 00:03:56.268 --> 00:03:59.802 society. Then people will actually feel that they're being 00:03:59.856 --> 00:04:03.574 listened to, they're heard their validation. 00:04:03.702 --> 00:04:07.498 There's more validity there. So if we take my story, 00:04:07.584 --> 00:04:11.242 like, I grew up, and a lot of what I went through 00:04:11.296 --> 00:04:14.654 was this feeling of not being good enough that 00:04:14.692 --> 00:04:18.302 anytime I said something, it was met with, well, have you thought with 00:04:18.356 --> 00:04:21.934 this? Whether it was a parent, a teacher, a friend, it was 00:04:21.972 --> 00:04:25.386 always, how do I give you a solution? 00:04:25.578 --> 00:04:28.914 Or the other side of that is, it's a me too. Like, oh, 00:04:29.112 --> 00:04:32.594 I've been through this. And so now the other side doesn't feel 00:04:32.632 --> 00:04:35.966 validated. They're like, well, now, all of a sudden, the story I'm telling 00:04:35.998 --> 00:04:39.554 you is one that you are trying to create connection 00:04:39.602 --> 00:04:43.254 with. But instead of actually creating connection, I'm now 00:04:43.292 --> 00:04:47.126 catering towards you because you are feeling like you have 00:04:47.148 --> 00:04:50.938 this connection with me. And so if we can stop and actually start 00:04:51.024 --> 00:04:53.740 listening and understanding from 00:04:55.070 --> 00:04:58.826 a human standpoint, that people just want 00:04:58.848 --> 00:05:02.634 to feel validated, they want to feel understood, that we 00:05:02.672 --> 00:05:06.346 don't need to be quick to give them a, here's 00:05:06.378 --> 00:05:09.486 how to do it, or here's how I would do it. Here's what I think 00:05:09.508 --> 00:05:12.320 you would be doing. And so through all of that, 00:05:15.250 --> 00:05:19.074 the lens I put my life through was I was never good enough and 00:05:19.112 --> 00:05:22.766 that I couldn't do anything right. And then you've also have, like, a perfectionist 00:05:22.798 --> 00:05:26.386 mindset. So if we are always thinking 00:05:26.488 --> 00:05:30.214 about, well, have you thought about this? Then it's like, oh, what I 00:05:30.252 --> 00:05:33.686 must be doing was wrong. So how do I do something 00:05:33.788 --> 00:05:37.410 better? Or you have a better idea, or my idea is not there. So 00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:41.082 from society standpoint, we start creating this culture, fix it. 00:05:41.136 --> 00:05:44.060 Perfection of not good enough. 00:05:46.670 --> 00:05:50.230 And that is a core of ultimately, after 00:05:50.320 --> 00:05:54.026 years of not knowing why I was so unhappy 00:05:54.058 --> 00:05:57.614 and why I was not living a 00:05:57.652 --> 00:06:01.262 fulfilled life for myself. Yeah, a year 00:06:01.316 --> 00:06:04.786 ago, I didn't want to be here and someone was able to help me and 00:06:04.808 --> 00:06:07.780 cheque me into a programme and I'm now 00:06:08.790 --> 00:06:12.514 so grateful and have so much love, but also an 00:06:12.552 --> 00:06:16.374 understanding. And every time I tell my story to people, I'm like, I want you 00:06:16.412 --> 00:06:19.814 to start and pause and learn that. 00:06:20.012 --> 00:06:23.782 Ask the question, are you sharing this with me because 00:06:23.836 --> 00:06:27.510 you want me to respond, are you sharing this to me 00:06:27.580 --> 00:06:31.306 because you want a solution? Why are 00:06:31.328 --> 00:06:34.380 you sharing this? And if we actually take that moment back 00:06:35.070 --> 00:06:38.602 and do that, the other party is going to go like, wow, 00:06:38.736 --> 00:06:42.574 I feel seen, I feel understood. This is going to help me. 00:06:42.612 --> 00:06:46.302 And if you look at that from the workspace standpoint and 00:06:46.356 --> 00:06:50.078 who your audience is, it's like that changes the game 00:06:50.164 --> 00:06:53.722 completely. You now have an audience inside your company 00:06:53.796 --> 00:06:57.426 that feels even more validated. So I'll kind of 00:06:57.448 --> 00:07:01.186 pause there because that's a lot. But, yeah, that's kind of 00:07:01.208 --> 00:07:04.546 why listening, not fixing, is a key piece for 00:07:04.568 --> 00:07:08.306 me. Thank you for trusting me to tell 00:07:08.328 --> 00:07:12.040 me that story. That's really powerful. And 00:07:13.370 --> 00:07:17.126 if you don't mind, can I ask you, can you trace back 00:07:17.228 --> 00:07:20.742 the root of this? Was it to your childhood, 00:07:20.886 --> 00:07:24.074 your parents, your educational system, your 00:07:24.112 --> 00:07:27.180 peers? What led you to believe you were never good? 00:07:29.550 --> 00:07:33.262 I mean, I guess I would go with my parents in this one. So 00:07:33.316 --> 00:07:35.390 I'm a big Brene Brown fan 00:07:37.810 --> 00:07:41.290 and I always remember this story from one of her books 00:07:41.370 --> 00:07:44.878 is when she was sick, her parents were 00:07:44.964 --> 00:07:48.242 loving and amazing parents and they took care of her, right? 00:07:48.376 --> 00:07:52.190 And they did all the things you would expect a good, nurturing 00:07:52.270 --> 00:07:56.066 family to do, to take care of their child when 00:07:56.088 --> 00:07:59.894 they got sick. They didn't do that for themselves. So the 00:07:59.932 --> 00:08:03.746 lens that Brene saw was sickness is a weakness. 00:08:03.938 --> 00:08:07.206 And that's why I go back to the story of, like, when your parents are 00:08:07.228 --> 00:08:10.360 doing something out of love, or someone's doing something out of love, 00:08:11.450 --> 00:08:15.034 their thoughts are, I'm doing an amazing thing. I'm trying to help you. I'm doing 00:08:15.072 --> 00:08:18.666 such a great job. But the lens that another person puts on 00:08:18.688 --> 00:08:22.314 things may not be that perception is changing 00:08:22.362 --> 00:08:25.774 their reality. And we have to remember, perception is each 00:08:25.812 --> 00:08:29.214 individual's reality. So for me, it 00:08:29.252 --> 00:08:33.034 was. I mean, my father tomorrow 00:08:33.162 --> 00:08:36.882 would have been his 75th birthday, passed away a couple of months 00:08:36.936 --> 00:08:40.786 ago. He grew up in a broken home, didn't have 00:08:40.808 --> 00:08:44.514 a father himself, and he did an amazing job in raising us. 00:08:44.712 --> 00:08:48.434 But if we look at generational, he was your standard male 00:08:48.482 --> 00:08:52.262 who knew three emotions. I got happy, angry, sad. So 00:08:52.316 --> 00:08:55.240 I didn't grow up understanding that. 00:08:56.170 --> 00:09:00.010 I didn't know until this year, what dysregulation was 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.434 holding space, feeling regulated. Like words that 00:09:03.632 --> 00:09:06.954 are now becoming common. Most of us don't know 00:09:06.992 --> 00:09:10.674 that. Why am I anxious? Why am I feeling what I'm feeling? 00:09:10.742 --> 00:09:14.414 I couldn't tell you that I'm dysregulated now. 00:09:14.452 --> 00:09:17.870 I can tell you that. So back then, it was 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:21.790 understanding that my parents were just doing their best 00:09:21.860 --> 00:09:25.182 to protect me, being the protective parents that they were, 00:09:25.316 --> 00:09:28.866 or they were in such discomfort. I have a 00:09:28.888 --> 00:09:32.706 problem. Great. How do I solve this? Because they're problem solvers. Like, we 00:09:32.728 --> 00:09:36.354 are in a fixed society and we want to solve things. It was 00:09:36.392 --> 00:09:39.830 never of. So, yeah, the answer to your question 00:09:39.900 --> 00:09:43.494 was probably going back to that of, I didn't feel good enough 00:09:43.532 --> 00:09:47.286 because anything I did was. It was too scary. So there was 00:09:47.308 --> 00:09:50.954 the worry. Have you thought about 00:09:50.992 --> 00:09:54.810 this idea? There was no validation of like, you're good, I trust 00:09:54.880 --> 00:09:58.586 you. It's more of how do I protect you from the world? Or 00:09:58.768 --> 00:10:02.460 how do I ensure you don't have pain? 00:10:03.390 --> 00:10:07.158 When reality pain is a good thing. Like, you need the bitter and the 00:10:07.184 --> 00:10:10.906 sweet. You need some of those things. So if we're not allowing 00:10:10.938 --> 00:10:14.642 people to feel discomfort, to learn 00:10:14.696 --> 00:10:18.420 from mistakes, we're actually doing a disservice to them. 00:10:18.870 --> 00:10:21.460 So, yeah, that's, I think, the answer to your question. 00:10:21.990 --> 00:10:25.346 Yeah. A buz phrase we hear at the moment is 00:10:25.368 --> 00:10:29.166 psychological safety. And one of the elements there is learner 00:10:29.198 --> 00:10:32.998 safety. So being able to learn in a safe space, and a key part of 00:10:33.004 --> 00:10:36.534 that is being able to make mistakes. So if you're not in an environment where 00:10:36.572 --> 00:10:40.382 mistakes are learning exercises, mistakes are valid, the mistakes 00:10:40.466 --> 00:10:44.186 are okay if you believe you can never make a mistake. I guess that 00:10:44.208 --> 00:10:46.810 is the root of perfectionism, 00:10:47.790 --> 00:10:51.002 to a point where perfectionism is a problem, not just high 00:10:51.056 --> 00:10:54.814 achievement, it holds you back. It stops you being good 00:10:54.852 --> 00:10:58.494 enough. You have to be better than good enough, and everything has to be 00:10:58.532 --> 00:11:01.774 perfect, which we know is unachievable and 00:11:01.812 --> 00:11:05.454 unattainable, and also you're chasing something that is unhealthy, 00:11:05.502 --> 00:11:09.186 sometimes 100%. And that's what 00:11:09.208 --> 00:11:12.814 I ultimately was trying to do. I had a perfectionist, 00:11:12.862 --> 00:11:16.422 fixed mindset that if you have that as 00:11:16.556 --> 00:11:19.894 a double dose, it doesn't lead to 00:11:20.012 --> 00:11:23.702 happiness. And then back to your intro. 00:11:23.836 --> 00:11:27.494 I'm ahead of growth. I'm in a revenue role. My 00:11:27.532 --> 00:11:31.142 career has been revenue. I love talking to people. So back 00:11:31.196 --> 00:11:34.822 to my superpower is life is about time and relationships. 00:11:34.886 --> 00:11:38.426 I love opening up a conversation with someone. I don't know where it's going to 00:11:38.448 --> 00:11:41.770 go. But let's open that up now. That goes into a sales 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.398 mindset of going like, look, eventually I could sell to you, but 00:11:45.424 --> 00:11:48.734 also I can help you. If I don't have a solution, maybe I can help 00:11:48.772 --> 00:11:52.526 you and connect you to someone else. And so if you look at it from 00:11:52.548 --> 00:11:56.130 the sales mindset, salespeople 00:11:57.430 --> 00:12:01.186 are rejected a lot. You have to build thick skin. So 00:12:01.208 --> 00:12:04.962 if you have a perfectionist mindset, a fixed mindset, you're already 00:12:05.016 --> 00:12:08.582 torn down and you're going into a profession where you're getting 00:12:08.716 --> 00:12:10.440 torn down even more. 00:12:11.850 --> 00:12:15.462 Yeah, it was a recipe for disaster until 00:12:15.516 --> 00:12:19.306 I was able to get help and realise it. Yeah, 00:12:19.488 --> 00:12:23.114 I feel that pain. And my wife works with me, she does 00:12:23.152 --> 00:12:26.394 my business development. She call it sales, call it 00:12:26.512 --> 00:12:29.450 engagement, outreach, Linkedin emails, 00:12:29.890 --> 00:12:32.400 and often I'm having to 00:12:33.730 --> 00:12:37.406 reinforce and amplify and boost her when she has a 00:12:37.428 --> 00:12:41.066 bad day. She's had too many no's, too many rejections, 00:12:41.098 --> 00:12:44.526 or someone won't pay the asking price or something like this, 00:12:44.548 --> 00:12:48.346 and she gets all kind of, like, flustered and angry 00:12:48.378 --> 00:12:51.666 and lock herself for the toilet for ten minutes and shout at the wall. And 00:12:51.688 --> 00:12:54.754 I just step in and give her a hug and say, it's okay. Every no 00:12:54.792 --> 00:12:58.614 is closer to a yes. Keep going, you're doing great, you can do this. 00:12:58.652 --> 00:13:01.814 So I get it that you want validation, you want 00:13:01.852 --> 00:13:05.686 gratification, you want those brain chemicals to hit you and 00:13:05.708 --> 00:13:09.340 go, yeah, I'm winning. And when they don't come, 00:13:09.870 --> 00:13:13.580 you go to that downward spiral, don't you? Yeah. 00:13:14.910 --> 00:13:18.666 And I think it's also an understanding. So if we look at it from 00:13:18.688 --> 00:13:22.174 a sales culture and a fix it culture, and just a 00:13:22.212 --> 00:13:25.946 culture of not understanding people's values and what's 00:13:25.978 --> 00:13:29.502 important to them. So if we can do a better 00:13:29.556 --> 00:13:33.326 job of understanding those things, especially in 00:13:33.348 --> 00:13:37.170 the sales culture, but I think it is a corporate world 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.026 as a whole. Most people move up in their career because they were 00:13:41.048 --> 00:13:44.414 good at what they did. But as you know, as a leadership 00:13:44.462 --> 00:13:48.214 coach, just because you were good at that job doesn't mean you're good at 00:13:48.252 --> 00:13:52.006 managing people, doesn't mean you are good at coaching people. Those 00:13:52.028 --> 00:13:55.270 are very different skill sets. So if you look at the sales 00:13:55.340 --> 00:13:59.094 community, I crushed my numbers, so, great, you're going to move up into 00:13:59.132 --> 00:14:02.666 a sales manager role, because if you did well, maybe you can teach all these 00:14:02.688 --> 00:14:06.426 other people how to do it. That doesn't work that way. And you're not 00:14:06.448 --> 00:14:09.674 giving that person actually the understanding of going like, hold 00:14:09.712 --> 00:14:13.374 on. Is what I'm doing a good thing? 00:14:13.492 --> 00:14:17.262 You're probably perpetuating a perfectionist mindset, or 00:14:17.316 --> 00:14:21.134 work hard, just overcome it. Just make more dials and go do these things. 00:14:21.252 --> 00:14:24.926 We have to take a step back and actually be able to have those vulnerable 00:14:24.958 --> 00:14:28.770 conversations, which most of us aren't doing. Yeah, 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.806 I think it's got a name, isn't it? It's called the Peter Principle. So you're 00:14:31.838 --> 00:14:35.426 promoted to the point of incompetence and then you get 00:14:35.448 --> 00:14:38.690 stuck there. So what happens is you're really good at what you do. You stand 00:14:38.760 --> 00:14:42.546 head and shoulders above the people around you, so therefore you're candidate 00:14:42.578 --> 00:14:46.086 for promotion. So you get promoted to the next level. If you stand out at 00:14:46.108 --> 00:14:49.654 that level, you get promoted to the next level. You get promoted until at one 00:14:49.692 --> 00:14:53.066 point, you no longer stand out. And you're now incompetent at doing that 00:14:53.088 --> 00:14:56.726 role without the investment, because everyone thinks you're a high achiever. 00:14:56.758 --> 00:15:00.606 Everyone thinks you can do all this. And you're so right in what 00:15:00.628 --> 00:15:04.298 you say there is that we need to invest in our leadership. 00:15:04.474 --> 00:15:08.174 And leaders aren't just great technicians. There are 00:15:08.212 --> 00:15:11.790 skills and competencies that leaders should have 00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:15.454 and can be trained. Leaders aren't born, they're not created like 00:15:15.492 --> 00:15:19.234 that. Leadership is a learned skill. Yes, 00:15:19.272 --> 00:15:22.226 you can have some natural talent, natural flair for it, but you can learn this. 00:15:22.248 --> 00:15:25.922 You can learn emotional intelligence. You can learn to listen. As you said, 00:15:25.976 --> 00:15:29.778 learn to listen without having to respond. Sometimes it's 00:15:29.794 --> 00:15:33.458 so difficult, though, isn't it? Someone tells your story. You were telling 00:15:33.474 --> 00:15:36.806 me your intro, and I so wanted to respond to 00:15:36.828 --> 00:15:40.566 you. I so wanted to dive in there with empathy. I 00:15:40.588 --> 00:15:44.410 so wanted to go. And me as well. And, oh, yes, I've had that experience 00:15:44.560 --> 00:15:48.250 to try and validate what you're saying. But as you say, the power 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:51.834 there is not to listen to respond, listen to 00:15:51.952 --> 00:15:54.940 acknowledge, listen to ask you 00:15:55.790 --> 00:15:58.926 how you feel about that, how you can drill down in that. Not for me 00:15:58.948 --> 00:16:01.946 to go, well, that's happened to me as well. It's a me too thing, isn't 00:16:01.978 --> 00:16:05.726 it? Yeah. I 00:16:05.748 --> 00:16:08.974 hate that we have the Me too movement, but I'm like, this is a different 00:16:09.012 --> 00:16:12.850 me too movement that I think is actually, if not 00:16:12.920 --> 00:16:16.502 more, or an equal playing field of, like, 00:16:16.556 --> 00:16:20.214 hold on. We are damaging us 00:16:20.252 --> 00:16:23.894 as a people by me doing this, by 00:16:24.092 --> 00:16:27.880 trying to build connection when you're not really building connection, you're just. 00:16:30.170 --> 00:16:31.240 I don't know. 00:16:33.930 --> 00:16:37.638 It's hard, though, isn't it? You've taught me something really deep. 00:16:37.734 --> 00:16:41.226 And my natural reaction, and most people's natural reaction is 00:16:41.408 --> 00:16:44.986 to either use sympathy or empathy as a kind of a feedback 00:16:45.018 --> 00:16:48.686 mechanism to show I've listened and to acknowledge you and validate you in 00:16:48.708 --> 00:16:52.426 some way by saying, I get that because I've done this. And what you're 00:16:52.458 --> 00:16:56.114 saying is when you're in a certain status where you were, 00:16:56.312 --> 00:16:59.570 you don't need someone to fix you, you just need someone to go, 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.394 wow, that's so powerful, Greg. Tell me 00:17:03.432 --> 00:17:06.898 more, or let's dive into something like that. What more do you want to share? 00:17:06.984 --> 00:17:10.774 How else can I listen to you and hear you without 00:17:10.812 --> 00:17:14.258 trying to come up with any answers? Because we want to fix each other, don't 00:17:14.274 --> 00:17:18.074 we? That's the trouble. We do want to fix each other. I think 00:17:18.112 --> 00:17:21.340 the biggest phrase I learned during my programme was 00:17:21.710 --> 00:17:25.210 thank you for sharing those little 00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:28.634 words. Literally, just then allows the person to go 00:17:28.672 --> 00:17:32.286 like, you heard me, you understood I was 00:17:32.308 --> 00:17:35.934 sharing something that is either difficult or I'm going 00:17:35.972 --> 00:17:39.440 through a pain or I'm in pain. It could be a simple 00:17:39.890 --> 00:17:43.394 frustration with work. Going back to your 00:17:43.432 --> 00:17:46.702 scenario, it's like I'm beating 00:17:46.766 --> 00:17:49.970 down, I'm getting all these no's 00:17:50.470 --> 00:17:54.162 and your response is you've got this. It's like, okay, 00:17:54.216 --> 00:17:56.798 the next call is just going to get you to a yes type deal. It's 00:17:56.814 --> 00:18:00.566 like the motivation they need, but it's understanding then is that what they 00:18:00.588 --> 00:18:04.226 need? Is the person actually coming to you and saying, I'm 00:18:04.258 --> 00:18:07.874 sharing this with you so that you can boost me up? Or am I sharing 00:18:07.922 --> 00:18:11.510 this with you so that I just can share this? And 00:18:11.580 --> 00:18:14.186 I trust you and I love you and I just want to share this with 00:18:14.208 --> 00:18:17.946 someone because I'm beating down and I know this is a feeling that 00:18:17.968 --> 00:18:21.626 will go and it will pass, but this is where I'm at right now and 00:18:21.648 --> 00:18:25.434 I'm kind of asking you to sit here with me as opposed to boosting 00:18:25.482 --> 00:18:29.246 me up, but until we actually go, thank you for sharing that. Are 00:18:29.268 --> 00:18:32.862 you looking for me to respond? Are you looking for 00:18:32.916 --> 00:18:36.450 me to do what? We don't do that. 00:18:36.520 --> 00:18:40.306 And once we start doing that, my God, what power of 00:18:40.328 --> 00:18:43.954 that is going to be amazing. Yeah. Have you heard 00:18:43.992 --> 00:18:47.310 of an expression called Rubber ducking? 00:18:47.470 --> 00:18:51.078 No. I can't remember which company it was, but one company, they 00:18:51.084 --> 00:18:54.742 had this kind of guiding principle that you could not ask 00:18:54.796 --> 00:18:58.402 for help from your manager, from your colleagues unless 00:18:58.466 --> 00:19:02.098 you discussed your problem with a rubber duck on a 00:19:02.124 --> 00:19:05.914 shelf. So you'd have people, or in the office, they'd stand 00:19:05.952 --> 00:19:09.354 in front of this shelf with a rubber duck on it and they'd explain their 00:19:09.392 --> 00:19:13.146 problem. And they'd have a conversation with a rubber duck. And obviously, nine 00:19:13.168 --> 00:19:16.814 times out of ten, just saying it out loud, just bringing it out of your 00:19:16.852 --> 00:19:20.526 head into the open, is enough for you to go, right, I've got it now. 00:19:20.548 --> 00:19:24.334 I've got the ideas. As you said, I've let the frustration out. I've 00:19:24.382 --> 00:19:27.938 expressed it somehow. And as you say, 00:19:28.024 --> 00:19:31.794 sometimes it's just the need to say 00:19:31.832 --> 00:19:35.666 something with somebody else in the room so that you're heard, you're listened to, and 00:19:35.688 --> 00:19:38.310 that frustration hasn't gone nowhere. 00:19:39.210 --> 00:19:42.966 So I completely get that, and I do it as well. I 00:19:42.988 --> 00:19:46.806 have a bad day, and I want to scream, but if no 00:19:46.828 --> 00:19:50.118 one hears me, it's not a scream, is it? If a tree falls in the 00:19:50.124 --> 00:19:53.466 woods, does it actually make a noise? Yeah. I want someone to acknowledge and 00:19:53.488 --> 00:19:56.954 go, okay, I heard you. Great. And 00:19:56.992 --> 00:20:00.574 then we can feel acknowledged. I think that's the acknowledgment of 00:20:00.612 --> 00:20:04.366 my frustration, my pain, my challenge. Whatever it is, you 00:20:04.388 --> 00:20:07.360 can't fix it. There's nothing you could say. It's just. 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:13.738 And that goes to if we allow people to sit in discomfort. 00:20:13.914 --> 00:20:17.714 I'm learning this. Sitting in discomfort means there's change. And so 00:20:17.752 --> 00:20:21.442 if you can just accept discomfort, then that's a great 00:20:21.496 --> 00:20:23.620 thing to move and change. 00:20:26.250 --> 00:20:29.734 Do you have a lot of people say to you where you're so 00:20:29.772 --> 00:20:33.142 brave or you're a real 00:20:33.196 --> 00:20:36.550 inspiration and sort of giving you hero status? 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:41.594 In the last year, friends and family continue to just 00:20:41.632 --> 00:20:45.242 use the proud of me. Proud to 00:20:45.296 --> 00:20:49.082 have chosen a different path than I was originally thinking 00:20:49.136 --> 00:20:52.702 of taking, and proud of where I 00:20:52.756 --> 00:20:55.920 am a year later, since I was there, 00:20:56.450 --> 00:20:59.600 I don't know if it's hero status. It's more of, like, 00:21:00.130 --> 00:21:03.546 just being able to engage with 00:21:03.588 --> 00:21:07.378 them on these deeper levels that I couldn't. That was the 00:21:07.384 --> 00:21:11.074 biggest thing. Even my mom, no one knew where I 00:21:11.112 --> 00:21:14.482 was. No one knew the depth of my 00:21:14.536 --> 00:21:18.306 depression, because you hide it really well. That's what we do. 00:21:18.328 --> 00:21:21.794 As society goes back to your water cooler 00:21:21.842 --> 00:21:25.506 conversations of, like, how are you doing? I'm fine. How are you doing? I'm 00:21:25.538 --> 00:21:28.966 fine. And you walk away, and it's like, no one actually has the conversation of 00:21:28.988 --> 00:21:32.074 going like, no, I'm having a shit day. It's like, now I got to sit 00:21:32.112 --> 00:21:35.594 here and listen to you tell me about your shit day. Fine. 00:21:35.792 --> 00:21:39.370 No, we'd rather. And that's the irony of this, right? 00:21:39.520 --> 00:21:43.274 I want to fix it, but when you tell me I 00:21:43.312 --> 00:21:45.694 got something else to do, I'm like, well, I don't want to listen to this. 00:21:45.732 --> 00:21:49.566 So we have this weird societal issue, and I think when we 00:21:49.588 --> 00:21:53.406 can start having those vulnerable conversations, we'll do it. And so I think 00:21:53.428 --> 00:21:57.166 that's where my friends are coming from, of understanding. Like, you're 00:21:57.198 --> 00:22:00.914 actually trying to do things. You're trying to make a change, not only 00:22:00.952 --> 00:22:04.610 yourself, but help others. And that's why 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:08.262 I'm so honoured to come on here and talk to you about this topic, because 00:22:08.316 --> 00:22:11.160 I feel we're missing this. 00:22:12.250 --> 00:22:15.986 Yeah, I hear what you're saying there. When we're 00:22:16.018 --> 00:22:19.526 with our friends, our family, whatever it is, and the 00:22:19.548 --> 00:22:23.366 conversation about, how are you doing? The expected answer is, yeah, 00:22:23.388 --> 00:22:27.146 I'm okay. Having a tough week. Things will be okay. Don't worry about it. And 00:22:27.168 --> 00:22:29.898 then you say, how about you? And they go, yeah, metre. Yeah. Similar sort of 00:22:29.904 --> 00:22:33.638 thing. Yeah, life goes on. Yeah, we're getting there. And that's 00:22:33.654 --> 00:22:37.134 the kind of superficial level we're kind of comfortable with. And as you say, once 00:22:37.172 --> 00:22:40.846 it goes down a notch into, actually, no, I'm not okay. 00:22:40.948 --> 00:22:44.110 I've got some real things going on. Can you listen to me for five minutes? 00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:47.986 It's like, okay, we're getting deep here. Are 00:22:48.008 --> 00:22:51.426 we? This is a bit of bro love. Is it? What are we doing here? 00:22:51.608 --> 00:22:55.426 How can we take this to another level? It's like, uncomfortable. What do 00:22:55.448 --> 00:22:59.074 I say? And it takes a very special friend, colleague, 00:22:59.122 --> 00:23:02.966 family member who give you that time and move into that space for 00:23:02.988 --> 00:23:06.694 you to truly listen 100%. Like I said, it 00:23:06.732 --> 00:23:10.474 wasn't until a year or so ago I learned the phrase like hold space. 00:23:10.592 --> 00:23:14.374 We don't know how to hold space. No one's taught holding 00:23:14.422 --> 00:23:18.010 space for someone because we continue to have that bro love 00:23:18.080 --> 00:23:21.846 superficial. Like, you're good, I'm good. Cool. Let's 00:23:21.878 --> 00:23:25.518 go drink a beer. And everything's good, right? I don't know. 00:23:25.684 --> 00:23:29.166 Which is also probably why most of my friends are females, because I'm like, oh, 00:23:29.188 --> 00:23:32.914 I can have these deep conversations as opposed to men. We're not 00:23:32.952 --> 00:23:36.180 really talked about. We're not told these things. 00:23:37.590 --> 00:23:41.326 One of my favourite books that's helped in my journey was Lewis Howe's 00:23:41.358 --> 00:23:44.930 mask masculinity. And it's like the nine 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.706 masks that we as men wear. Most of 00:23:48.728 --> 00:23:52.006 us don't even know it. So I try and tell every friend, 00:23:52.188 --> 00:23:55.990 especially if you're in the education space, if you're a teacher, go read this book, 00:23:56.060 --> 00:23:59.830 because you'll start understanding what's going on at a psychological level 00:23:59.900 --> 00:24:03.706 with those kids in your classroom, because that's where 00:24:03.728 --> 00:24:07.100 it's all starting. And then if we can go into the adult level 00:24:07.470 --> 00:24:11.102 and if adults start reading that and the HR world start reading that and 00:24:11.156 --> 00:24:14.682 sales managers and leadership start, then we can start identifying 00:24:14.746 --> 00:24:18.270 certain things. So once you start seeing 00:24:18.340 --> 00:24:21.680 patterns, you can't unsee them. But we're not trained on it. 00:24:23.490 --> 00:24:27.070 What it's like in corporate America, but certainly in the UK, 00:24:27.150 --> 00:24:30.738 we're doing a lot more around mental health, first aid, training 00:24:30.824 --> 00:24:34.340 people to have those listening conversations, to cheque in on people 00:24:34.970 --> 00:24:38.678 to understand. I mean, I've lost probably three or 00:24:38.684 --> 00:24:42.406 four people, all men actually, over my life, 00:24:42.508 --> 00:24:45.430 who have taken their lives for various reasons 00:24:46.410 --> 00:24:49.654