Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for
Joanne Lockwood: the Inclusion Bytes podcast. In this series, I have
Joanne Lockwood: interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around
Joanne Lockwood: the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally
Joanne Lockwood: making the world a better place for everyone to thrive.
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Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 92
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Listening, not fixing,
Joanne Lockwood: and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Greg
Joanne Lockwood: Wasserman. Greg describes himself as the head of community,
Joanne Lockwood: partnerships and growth for an AI startup called
Joanne Lockwood: Castmagic. When I asked Greg to describe his
Joanne Lockwood: superpower, he said he is a gladwelling
Joanne Lockwood: superconnector, someone who spreads
Joanne Lockwood: ideas. Hello, Greg. Welcome to the show.
Greg Wasserman: Pleasure to be here. Great to join in with your
Greg Wasserman: audience. Thanks, Greg. We've chatted a bit
Joanne Lockwood: on slack via the cast magic community, so I
Joanne Lockwood: kind of feel like I've known you before we connected today. So absolute pleasure to
Joanne Lockwood: finally meet you logically, physically, virtually, in person,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever. So, Greg, reading through the show
Joanne Lockwood: notes, you pulled together ahead of this, and I put out the title listening, not
Joanne Lockwood: fixing. So what does that mean to you? Why is that important to you? I
Greg Wasserman: mean, there's so many ways to think about this, and
Greg Wasserman: I think we have a fix it culture and if we now take
Greg Wasserman: a step back, how did I actually get to this point of a
Greg Wasserman: fix it culture?
Greg Wasserman: I guess if we get raw, and this is what I love about
Greg Wasserman: the show is a year ago I entered a programme
Greg Wasserman: for rehab. Truly was not wanting to be
Greg Wasserman: here. This is the first time I'm joyfully
Greg Wasserman: sharing this message with your community because I
Greg Wasserman: say joyfully because it is a message that I think others
Greg Wasserman: need to hear. Because I was in a dark
Greg Wasserman: place and I got there because we have
Greg Wasserman: a fix it culture. I grew up in an amazing hoUsehold.
Greg Wasserman: Love my family, unbelievable parents, showed
Greg Wasserman: nothing but love. And the problem we have
Greg Wasserman: is the lens that we look through is not necessarily
Greg Wasserman: the lens that other people are intending us to look through.
Greg Wasserman: And no one actually understands that. So if you're like, everything
Greg Wasserman: was done with love, doesn't mean that it can't hurt. And
Greg Wasserman: so if we have a fix it culture, the fix it culture
Greg Wasserman: is we ourselves are in
Greg Wasserman: discomfort when someone shares a problem
Greg Wasserman: we want to fix that, we want to solve that.
Greg Wasserman: So instead of understanding that a person
Greg Wasserman: is just sharing that, they are
Greg Wasserman: in a position to feel comfortable with you, and they're like, I'm just
Greg Wasserman: sharing this now. We also don't, as a
Greg Wasserman: society, say, hey, I want to share something with you.
Greg Wasserman: I don't need you to respond. I just want you to listen.
Greg Wasserman: Maybe as a society, we need to start doing that as well. So there's a
Greg Wasserman: duality to this. If we can start training people to go,
Greg Wasserman: I want you to listen, and the other side to go, what
Greg Wasserman: do you need me to do with this information? I feel
Greg Wasserman: we will start improving as a
Greg Wasserman: society. Then people will actually feel that they're being
Greg Wasserman: listened to, they're heard their validation.
Greg Wasserman: There's more validity there. So if we take my story,
Greg Wasserman: like, I grew up, and a lot of what I went through
Greg Wasserman: was this feeling of not being good enough that
Greg Wasserman: anytime I said something, it was met with, well, have you thought with
Greg Wasserman: this? Whether it was a parent, a teacher, a friend, it was
Greg Wasserman: always, how do I give you a solution?
Greg Wasserman: Or the other side of that is, it's a me too. Like, oh,
Greg Wasserman: I've been through this. And so now the other side doesn't feel
Greg Wasserman: validated. They're like, well, now, all of a sudden, the story I'm telling
Greg Wasserman: you is one that you are trying to create connection
Greg Wasserman: with. But instead of actually creating connection, I'm now
Greg Wasserman: catering towards you because you are feeling like you have
Greg Wasserman: this connection with me. And so if we can stop and actually start
Greg Wasserman: listening and understanding from
Greg Wasserman: a human standpoint, that people just want
Greg Wasserman: to feel validated, they want to feel understood, that we
Greg Wasserman: don't need to be quick to give them a, here's
Greg Wasserman: how to do it, or here's how I would do it. Here's what I think
Greg Wasserman: you would be doing. And so through all of that,
Greg Wasserman: the lens I put my life through was I was never good enough and
Greg Wasserman: that I couldn't do anything right. And then you've also have, like, a perfectionist
Greg Wasserman: mindset. So if we are always thinking
Greg Wasserman: about, well, have you thought about this? Then it's like, oh, what I
Greg Wasserman: must be doing was wrong. So how do I do something
Greg Wasserman: better? Or you have a better idea, or my idea is not there. So
Greg Wasserman: from society standpoint, we start creating this culture, fix it.
Greg Wasserman: Perfection of not good enough.
Greg Wasserman: And that is a core of ultimately, after
Greg Wasserman: years of not knowing why I was so unhappy
Greg Wasserman: and why I was not living a
Greg Wasserman: fulfilled life for myself. Yeah, a year
Greg Wasserman: ago, I didn't want to be here and someone was able to help me and
Greg Wasserman: cheque me into a programme and I'm now
Greg Wasserman: so grateful and have so much love, but also an
Greg Wasserman: understanding. And every time I tell my story to people, I'm like, I want you
Greg Wasserman: to start and pause and learn that.
Greg Wasserman: Ask the question, are you sharing this with me because
Greg Wasserman: you want me to respond, are you sharing this to me
Greg Wasserman: because you want a solution? Why are
Greg Wasserman: you sharing this? And if we actually take that moment back
Greg Wasserman: and do that, the other party is going to go like, wow,
Greg Wasserman: I feel seen, I feel understood. This is going to help me.
Greg Wasserman: And if you look at that from the workspace standpoint and
Greg Wasserman: who your audience is, it's like that changes the game
Greg Wasserman: completely. You now have an audience inside your company
Greg Wasserman: that feels even more validated. So I'll kind of
Greg Wasserman: pause there because that's a lot. But, yeah, that's kind of
Greg Wasserman: why listening, not fixing, is a key piece for
Greg Wasserman: me. Thank you for trusting me to tell
Joanne Lockwood: me that story. That's really powerful. And
Joanne Lockwood: if you don't mind, can I ask you, can you trace back
Joanne Lockwood: the root of this? Was it to your childhood,
Joanne Lockwood: your parents, your educational system, your
Joanne Lockwood: peers? What led you to believe you were never good?
Greg Wasserman: I mean, I guess I would go with my parents in this one. So
Greg Wasserman: I'm a big Brene Brown fan
Greg Wasserman: and I always remember this story from one of her books
Greg Wasserman: is when she was sick, her parents were
Greg Wasserman: loving and amazing parents and they took care of her, right?
Greg Wasserman: And they did all the things you would expect a good, nurturing
Greg Wasserman: family to do, to take care of their child when
Greg Wasserman: they got sick. They didn't do that for themselves. So the
Greg Wasserman: lens that Brene saw was sickness is a weakness.
Greg Wasserman: And that's why I go back to the story of, like, when your parents are
Greg Wasserman: doing something out of love, or someone's doing something out of love,
Greg Wasserman: their thoughts are, I'm doing an amazing thing. I'm trying to help you. I'm doing
Greg Wasserman: such a great job. But the lens that another person puts on
Greg Wasserman: things may not be that perception is changing
Greg Wasserman: their reality. And we have to remember, perception is each
Greg Wasserman: individual's reality. So for me, it
Greg Wasserman: was. I mean, my father tomorrow
Greg Wasserman: would have been his 75th birthday, passed away a couple of months
Greg Wasserman: ago. He grew up in a broken home, didn't have
Greg Wasserman: a father himself, and he did an amazing job in raising us.
Greg Wasserman: But if we look at generational, he was your standard male
Greg Wasserman: who knew three emotions. I got happy, angry, sad. So
Greg Wasserman: I didn't grow up understanding that.
Greg Wasserman: I didn't know until this year, what dysregulation was
Greg Wasserman: holding space, feeling regulated. Like words that
Greg Wasserman: are now becoming common. Most of us don't know
Greg Wasserman: that. Why am I anxious? Why am I feeling what I'm feeling?
Greg Wasserman: I couldn't tell you that I'm dysregulated now.
Greg Wasserman: I can tell you that. So back then, it was
Greg Wasserman: understanding that my parents were just doing their best
Greg Wasserman: to protect me, being the protective parents that they were,
Greg Wasserman: or they were in such discomfort. I have a
Greg Wasserman: problem. Great. How do I solve this? Because they're problem solvers. Like, we
Greg Wasserman: are in a fixed society and we want to solve things. It was
Greg Wasserman: never of. So, yeah, the answer to your question
Greg Wasserman: was probably going back to that of, I didn't feel good enough
Greg Wasserman: because anything I did was. It was too scary. So there was
Greg Wasserman: the worry. Have you thought about
Greg Wasserman: this idea? There was no validation of like, you're good, I trust
Greg Wasserman: you. It's more of how do I protect you from the world? Or
Greg Wasserman: how do I ensure you don't have pain?
Greg Wasserman: When reality pain is a good thing. Like, you need the bitter and the
Greg Wasserman: sweet. You need some of those things. So if we're not allowing
Greg Wasserman: people to feel discomfort, to learn
Greg Wasserman: from mistakes, we're actually doing a disservice to them.
Greg Wasserman: So, yeah, that's, I think, the answer to your question.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. A buz phrase we hear at the moment is
Joanne Lockwood: psychological safety. And one of the elements there is learner
Joanne Lockwood: safety. So being able to learn in a safe space, and a key part of
Joanne Lockwood: that is being able to make mistakes. So if you're not in an environment where
Joanne Lockwood: mistakes are learning exercises, mistakes are valid, the mistakes
Joanne Lockwood: are okay if you believe you can never make a mistake. I guess that
Joanne Lockwood: is the root of perfectionism,
Joanne Lockwood: to a point where perfectionism is a problem, not just high
Joanne Lockwood: achievement, it holds you back. It stops you being good
Joanne Lockwood: enough. You have to be better than good enough, and everything has to be
Joanne Lockwood: perfect, which we know is unachievable and
Joanne Lockwood: unattainable, and also you're chasing something that is unhealthy,
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes 100%. And that's what
Greg Wasserman: I ultimately was trying to do. I had a perfectionist,
Greg Wasserman: fixed mindset that if you have that as
Greg Wasserman: a double dose, it doesn't lead to
Greg Wasserman: happiness. And then back to your intro.
Greg Wasserman: I'm ahead of growth. I'm in a revenue role. My
Greg Wasserman: career has been revenue. I love talking to people. So back
Greg Wasserman: to my superpower is life is about time and relationships.
Greg Wasserman: I love opening up a conversation with someone. I don't know where it's going to
Greg Wasserman: go. But let's open that up now. That goes into a sales
Greg Wasserman: mindset of going like, look, eventually I could sell to you, but
Greg Wasserman: also I can help you. If I don't have a solution, maybe I can help
Greg Wasserman: you and connect you to someone else. And so if you look at it from
Greg Wasserman: the sales mindset, salespeople
Greg Wasserman: are rejected a lot. You have to build thick skin. So
Greg Wasserman: if you have a perfectionist mindset, a fixed mindset, you're already
Greg Wasserman: torn down and you're going into a profession where you're getting
Greg Wasserman: torn down even more.
Greg Wasserman: Yeah, it was a recipe for disaster until
Greg Wasserman: I was able to get help and realise it. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I feel that pain. And my wife works with me, she does
Joanne Lockwood: my business development. She call it sales, call it
Joanne Lockwood: engagement, outreach, Linkedin emails,
Joanne Lockwood: and often I'm having to
Joanne Lockwood: reinforce and amplify and boost her when she has a
Joanne Lockwood: bad day. She's had too many no's, too many rejections,
Joanne Lockwood: or someone won't pay the asking price or something like this,
Joanne Lockwood: and she gets all kind of, like, flustered and angry
Joanne Lockwood: and lock herself for the toilet for ten minutes and shout at the wall. And
Joanne Lockwood: I just step in and give her a hug and say, it's okay. Every no
Joanne Lockwood: is closer to a yes. Keep going, you're doing great, you can do this.
Joanne Lockwood: So I get it that you want validation, you want
Joanne Lockwood: gratification, you want those brain chemicals to hit you and
Joanne Lockwood: go, yeah, I'm winning. And when they don't come,
Joanne Lockwood: you go to that downward spiral, don't you? Yeah.
Greg Wasserman: And I think it's also an understanding. So if we look at it from
Greg Wasserman: a sales culture and a fix it culture, and just a
Greg Wasserman: culture of not understanding people's values and what's
Greg Wasserman: important to them. So if we can do a better
Greg Wasserman: job of understanding those things, especially in
Greg Wasserman: the sales culture, but I think it is a corporate world
Greg Wasserman: as a whole. Most people move up in their career because they were
Greg Wasserman: good at what they did. But as you know, as a leadership
Greg Wasserman: coach, just because you were good at that job doesn't mean you're good at
Greg Wasserman: managing people, doesn't mean you are good at coaching people. Those
Greg Wasserman: are very different skill sets. So if you look at the sales
Greg Wasserman: community, I crushed my numbers, so, great, you're going to move up into
Greg Wasserman: a sales manager role, because if you did well, maybe you can teach all these
Greg Wasserman: other people how to do it. That doesn't work that way. And you're not
Greg Wasserman: giving that person actually the understanding of going like, hold
Greg Wasserman: on. Is what I'm doing a good thing?
Greg Wasserman: You're probably perpetuating a perfectionist mindset, or
Greg Wasserman: work hard, just overcome it. Just make more dials and go do these things.
Greg Wasserman: We have to take a step back and actually be able to have those vulnerable
Greg Wasserman: conversations, which most of us aren't doing. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I think it's got a name, isn't it? It's called the Peter Principle. So you're
Joanne Lockwood: promoted to the point of incompetence and then you get
Joanne Lockwood: stuck there. So what happens is you're really good at what you do. You stand
Joanne Lockwood: head and shoulders above the people around you, so therefore you're candidate
Joanne Lockwood: for promotion. So you get promoted to the next level. If you stand out at
Joanne Lockwood: that level, you get promoted to the next level. You get promoted until at one
Joanne Lockwood: point, you no longer stand out. And you're now incompetent at doing that
Joanne Lockwood: role without the investment, because everyone thinks you're a high achiever.
Joanne Lockwood: Everyone thinks you can do all this. And you're so right in what
Joanne Lockwood: you say there is that we need to invest in our leadership.
Joanne Lockwood: And leaders aren't just great technicians. There are
Joanne Lockwood: skills and competencies that leaders should have
Joanne Lockwood: and can be trained. Leaders aren't born, they're not created like
Joanne Lockwood: that. Leadership is a learned skill. Yes,
Joanne Lockwood: you can have some natural talent, natural flair for it, but you can learn this.
Joanne Lockwood: You can learn emotional intelligence. You can learn to listen. As you said,
Joanne Lockwood: learn to listen without having to respond. Sometimes it's
Joanne Lockwood: so difficult, though, isn't it? Someone tells your story. You were telling
Joanne Lockwood: me your intro, and I so wanted to respond to
Joanne Lockwood: you. I so wanted to dive in there with empathy. I
Joanne Lockwood: so wanted to go. And me as well. And, oh, yes, I've had that experience
Joanne Lockwood: to try and validate what you're saying. But as you say, the power
Joanne Lockwood: there is not to listen to respond, listen to
Joanne Lockwood: acknowledge, listen to ask you
Joanne Lockwood: how you feel about that, how you can drill down in that. Not for me
Joanne Lockwood: to go, well, that's happened to me as well. It's a me too thing, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yeah. I
Greg Wasserman: hate that we have the Me too movement, but I'm like, this is a different
Greg Wasserman: me too movement that I think is actually, if not
Greg Wasserman: more, or an equal playing field of, like,
Greg Wasserman: hold on. We are damaging us
Greg Wasserman: as a people by me doing this, by
Greg Wasserman: trying to build connection when you're not really building connection, you're just.
Greg Wasserman: I don't know.
Joanne Lockwood: It's hard, though, isn't it? You've taught me something really deep.
Joanne Lockwood: And my natural reaction, and most people's natural reaction is
Joanne Lockwood: to either use sympathy or empathy as a kind of a feedback
Joanne Lockwood: mechanism to show I've listened and to acknowledge you and validate you in
Joanne Lockwood: some way by saying, I get that because I've done this. And what you're
Joanne Lockwood: saying is when you're in a certain status where you were,
Joanne Lockwood: you don't need someone to fix you, you just need someone to go,
Joanne Lockwood: wow, that's so powerful, Greg. Tell me
Joanne Lockwood: more, or let's dive into something like that. What more do you want to share?
Joanne Lockwood: How else can I listen to you and hear you without
Joanne Lockwood: trying to come up with any answers? Because we want to fix each other, don't
Joanne Lockwood: we? That's the trouble. We do want to fix each other. I think
Greg Wasserman: the biggest phrase I learned during my programme was
Greg Wasserman: thank you for sharing those little
Greg Wasserman: words. Literally, just then allows the person to go
Greg Wasserman: like, you heard me, you understood I was
Greg Wasserman: sharing something that is either difficult or I'm going
Greg Wasserman: through a pain or I'm in pain. It could be a simple
Greg Wasserman: frustration with work. Going back to your
Greg Wasserman: scenario, it's like I'm beating
Greg Wasserman: down, I'm getting all these no's
Greg Wasserman: and your response is you've got this. It's like, okay,
Greg Wasserman: the next call is just going to get you to a yes type deal. It's
Greg Wasserman: like the motivation they need, but it's understanding then is that what they
Greg Wasserman: need? Is the person actually coming to you and saying, I'm
Greg Wasserman: sharing this with you so that you can boost me up? Or am I sharing
Greg Wasserman: this with you so that I just can share this? And
Greg Wasserman: I trust you and I love you and I just want to share this with
Greg Wasserman: someone because I'm beating down and I know this is a feeling that
Greg Wasserman: will go and it will pass, but this is where I'm at right now and
Greg Wasserman: I'm kind of asking you to sit here with me as opposed to boosting
Greg Wasserman: me up, but until we actually go, thank you for sharing that. Are
Greg Wasserman: you looking for me to respond? Are you looking for
Greg Wasserman: me to do what? We don't do that.
Greg Wasserman: And once we start doing that, my God, what power of
Greg Wasserman: that is going to be amazing. Yeah. Have you heard
Joanne Lockwood: of an expression called Rubber ducking?
Greg Wasserman: No. I can't remember which company it was, but one company, they
Joanne Lockwood: had this kind of guiding principle that you could not ask
Joanne Lockwood: for help from your manager, from your colleagues unless
Joanne Lockwood: you discussed your problem with a rubber duck on a
Joanne Lockwood: shelf. So you'd have people, or in the office, they'd stand
Joanne Lockwood: in front of this shelf with a rubber duck on it and they'd explain their
Joanne Lockwood: problem. And they'd have a conversation with a rubber duck. And obviously, nine
Joanne Lockwood: times out of ten, just saying it out loud, just bringing it out of your
Joanne Lockwood: head into the open, is enough for you to go, right, I've got it now.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got the ideas. As you said, I've let the frustration out. I've
Joanne Lockwood: expressed it somehow. And as you say,
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes it's just the need to say
Joanne Lockwood: something with somebody else in the room so that you're heard, you're listened to, and
Joanne Lockwood: that frustration hasn't gone nowhere.
Joanne Lockwood: So I completely get that, and I do it as well. I
Joanne Lockwood: have a bad day, and I want to scream, but if no
Joanne Lockwood: one hears me, it's not a scream, is it? If a tree falls in the
Joanne Lockwood: woods, does it actually make a noise? Yeah. I want someone to acknowledge and
Joanne Lockwood: go, okay, I heard you. Great. And
Joanne Lockwood: then we can feel acknowledged. I think that's the acknowledgment of
Joanne Lockwood: my frustration, my pain, my challenge. Whatever it is, you
Joanne Lockwood: can't fix it. There's nothing you could say. It's just.
Greg Wasserman: And that goes to if we allow people to sit in discomfort.
Greg Wasserman: I'm learning this. Sitting in discomfort means there's change. And so
Greg Wasserman: if you can just accept discomfort, then that's a great
Greg Wasserman: thing to move and change.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you have a lot of people say to you where you're so
Joanne Lockwood: brave or you're a real
Joanne Lockwood: inspiration and sort of giving you hero status?
Greg Wasserman: In the last year, friends and family continue to just
Greg Wasserman: use the proud of me. Proud to
Greg Wasserman: have chosen a different path than I was originally thinking
Greg Wasserman: of taking, and proud of where I
Greg Wasserman: am a year later, since I was there,
Greg Wasserman: I don't know if it's hero status. It's more of, like,
Greg Wasserman: just being able to engage with
Greg Wasserman: them on these deeper levels that I couldn't. That was the
Greg Wasserman: biggest thing. Even my mom, no one knew where I
Greg Wasserman: was. No one knew the depth of my
Greg Wasserman: depression, because you hide it really well. That's what we do.
Greg Wasserman: As society goes back to your water cooler
Greg Wasserman: conversations of, like, how are you doing? I'm fine. How are you doing? I'm
Greg Wasserman: fine. And you walk away, and it's like, no one actually has the conversation of
Greg Wasserman: going like, no, I'm having a shit day. It's like, now I got to sit
Greg Wasserman: here and listen to you tell me about your shit day. Fine.
Greg Wasserman: No, we'd rather. And that's the irony of this, right?
Greg Wasserman: I want to fix it, but when you tell me I
Greg Wasserman: got something else to do, I'm like, well, I don't want to listen to this.
Greg Wasserman: So we have this weird societal issue, and I think when we
Greg Wasserman: can start having those vulnerable conversations, we'll do it. And so I think
Greg Wasserman: that's where my friends are coming from, of understanding. Like, you're
Greg Wasserman: actually trying to do things. You're trying to make a change, not only
Greg Wasserman: yourself, but help others. And that's why
Greg Wasserman: I'm so honoured to come on here and talk to you about this topic, because
Greg Wasserman: I feel we're missing this.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I hear what you're saying there. When we're
Joanne Lockwood: with our friends, our family, whatever it is, and the
Joanne Lockwood: conversation about, how are you doing? The expected answer is, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm okay. Having a tough week. Things will be okay. Don't worry about it. And
Joanne Lockwood: then you say, how about you? And they go, yeah, metre. Yeah. Similar sort of
Joanne Lockwood: thing. Yeah, life goes on. Yeah, we're getting there. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: the kind of superficial level we're kind of comfortable with. And as you say, once
Joanne Lockwood: it goes down a notch into, actually, no, I'm not okay.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got some real things going on. Can you listen to me for five minutes?
Joanne Lockwood: It's like, okay, we're getting deep here. Are
Joanne Lockwood: we? This is a bit of bro love. Is it? What are we doing here?
Joanne Lockwood: How can we take this to another level? It's like, uncomfortable. What do
Joanne Lockwood: I say? And it takes a very special friend, colleague,
Joanne Lockwood: family member who give you that time and move into that space for
Joanne Lockwood: you to truly listen 100%. Like I said, it
Greg Wasserman: wasn't until a year or so ago I learned the phrase like hold space.
Greg Wasserman: We don't know how to hold space. No one's taught holding
Greg Wasserman: space for someone because we continue to have that bro love
Greg Wasserman: superficial. Like, you're good, I'm good. Cool. Let's
Greg Wasserman: go drink a beer. And everything's good, right? I don't know.
Greg Wasserman: Which is also probably why most of my friends are females, because I'm like, oh,
Greg Wasserman: I can have these deep conversations as opposed to men. We're not
Greg Wasserman: really talked about. We're not told these things.
Greg Wasserman: One of my favourite books that's helped in my journey was Lewis Howe's
Greg Wasserman: mask masculinity. And it's like the nine
Greg Wasserman: masks that we as men wear. Most of
Greg Wasserman: us don't even know it. So I try and tell every friend,
Greg Wasserman: especially if you're in the education space, if you're a teacher, go read this book,
Greg Wasserman: because you'll start understanding what's going on at a psychological level
Greg Wasserman: with those kids in your classroom, because that's where
Greg Wasserman: it's all starting. And then if we can go into the adult level
Greg Wasserman: and if adults start reading that and the HR world start reading that and
Greg Wasserman: sales managers and leadership start, then we can start identifying
Greg Wasserman: certain things. So once you start seeing
Greg Wasserman: patterns, you can't unsee them. But we're not trained on it.
Joanne Lockwood: What it's like in corporate America, but certainly in the UK,
Joanne Lockwood: we're doing a lot more around mental health, first aid, training
Joanne Lockwood: people to have those listening conversations, to cheque in on people
Joanne Lockwood: to understand. I mean, I've lost probably three or
Joanne Lockwood: four people, all men actually, over my life,
Joanne Lockwood: who have taken their lives for various reasons
Joanne Lockwood: and nobody can understand why. There was no
Joanne Lockwood: sign. They were just getting on with life. And then
Joanne Lockwood: one day they weren't and there was a friend who lived in Australia
Joanne Lockwood: and his wife came home and found him. He'd hanged
Joanne Lockwood: himself on the pergola in the back garden and nobody had any clue.
Joanne Lockwood: He just went home from work early and took that route
Joanne Lockwood: and it's that unknown. And I
Joanne Lockwood: guess had all of these people had the opportunity for
Joanne Lockwood: someone to just hear them, to listen to them or cheque in on them
Joanne Lockwood: just at that one moment, then
Joanne Lockwood: potentially that conversation could have
Joanne Lockwood: had a different outcome rather than just everyone's okay,
Joanne Lockwood: everyonE's fine. First,
Greg Wasserman: thank you for sharing that. That's not
Greg Wasserman: light, so thank you for sharing that piece.
Greg Wasserman: What comes to mind when I hear that, having been
Greg Wasserman: there, the cheque ins are nice, but cheque
Greg Wasserman: ins I don't think help so much.
Greg Wasserman: So if a person doesn't know where they
Greg Wasserman: are, if they're already in a place
Greg Wasserman: mentally, then it comes down to shame and fear.
Greg Wasserman: Like, if I've never been trained on talking about these things,
Greg Wasserman: how do I come to you and you're going like, are you okay? And you're
Greg Wasserman: like, yeah, I'm fine. That's what we are. We are a fine
Greg Wasserman: society. And I always forget what the acronym of fine is,
Greg Wasserman: but it's not a good one. So
Greg Wasserman: if I always told people, it's like, look, Robin
Greg Wasserman: Williams, Anthony Bardain, they seem like they had such
Greg Wasserman: great, like, they're not with us anymore
Greg Wasserman: for whatever reason. So we can go down that path. But
Greg Wasserman: people could cheque in, I don't think it's
Greg Wasserman: a cheque in, I think it's actually understanding and
Greg Wasserman: diving in. Like, I did not know where I was. If you checked in,
Greg Wasserman: I was great at hiding it. I didn't know how to share. No one
Greg Wasserman: actually taught me those skills. No one held space. So I think
Greg Wasserman: it goes from how do we do that better
Greg Wasserman: in order to stop anyone
Greg Wasserman: getting to that sad ending?
Joanne Lockwood: You talked about the multiple masks, multiple hats that men wear.
Joanne Lockwood: Was it? You said nine. Was it hats, different masks?
Joanne Lockwood: Having tried it in my past, being a man, I tried it for a while.
Joanne Lockwood: It didn't work out for me. But there's a lot of pressure
Joanne Lockwood: being a man, to live up to societal expectations,
Joanne Lockwood: family responsibilities, as you say, that
Joanne Lockwood: perfectionism, to be the person that everybody looks up to for
Joanne Lockwood: strength, not showing weakness or deep
Joanne Lockwood: emotion, and to keep that invincible,
Joanne Lockwood: stoic front going, which is why we
Joanne Lockwood: see suicidal amongst men being the biggest killer
Joanne Lockwood: of a certain age range. I think it's, what, 20 to 50 or something? It's
Joanne Lockwood: one of the biggest killers of men, certainly in the UK. I guess it plays
Joanne Lockwood: the same in the US as well. And
Joanne Lockwood: it is a tough gig being a man. I know
Joanne Lockwood: we say that women have tough gigs having to put up with men sometimes, but
Joanne Lockwood: men Have a tough gig just existing as
Joanne Lockwood: a man for the pressure they have without sometimes the support
Joanne Lockwood: structure, or as you say, the conversations you have with your
Joanne Lockwood: female friends allow you to go deeper and to have
Joanne Lockwood: those more empathic, more emotional type conversations that you
Joanne Lockwood: could never have with male friends. And men tend to socialise
Joanne Lockwood: with other men, and it often stays at that superficial level
Joanne Lockwood: without the opportunity to go deep, doesn't it? Yeah.
Greg Wasserman: Look, I think being a human is
Greg Wasserman: difficult, regardless of any
Greg Wasserman: factors, and each one's got their own. Like, we can all joke going like,
Greg Wasserman: oh, I couldn't be a woman. Oh, I couldn't be a man. Right? Couldn't be
Greg Wasserman: a dog, it's like, oh, a dog's probably the greatest life. I don't know.
Greg Wasserman: But, yeah, I mean, as a male, a 40,
Greg Wasserman: almost 41 year old male who grew up in a
Greg Wasserman: generation where your parents in
Greg Wasserman: the early 60s were taught certain
Greg Wasserman: things, I think we're changing and the next generations
Greg Wasserman: will become better and you're seeing that. But the current
Greg Wasserman: generation, where I'm at, I'm still living from those
Greg Wasserman: past and it's tough, but that's why I'm
Greg Wasserman: like, all right, we got to start listening better. We've got to start
Greg Wasserman: asking questions and responding.
Greg Wasserman: Otherwise, not only is it suicide, but
Greg Wasserman: it's also why men die of heart attacks.
Greg Wasserman: I didn't cry. I could tell you I cried four times,
Greg Wasserman: probably in 20 years, and those four
Greg Wasserman: times were over sporting related events, whether I was playing or
Greg Wasserman: watching. So that just goes to show you where my
Greg Wasserman: head was and then crying over them, especially when I was
Greg Wasserman: playing you're like, I can't believe I'm crying, and I'm showing
Greg Wasserman: all this emotion in my field. Like, this is terrible. No,
Greg Wasserman: you've got to allow that. And so I've now learned, like, crying is
Greg Wasserman: such a great release. It is a beautiful thing.
Greg Wasserman: We're not taught those things. Those aren't allowed
Greg Wasserman: culturally across all different
Greg Wasserman: facets. That's so true and so
Joanne Lockwood: insightful. One of the things that I've learned over the
Joanne Lockwood: last seven years, since I gender transitioned, is
Joanne Lockwood: to not hold my emotions in. Maybe it's the oestrogen that I
Joanne Lockwood: have Flowing through my body now. Maybe it's those hormones, the chemicals,
Joanne Lockwood: the female brain kicking in with those hormones, but I
Joanne Lockwood: find crying extremely cathartic. It's
Joanne Lockwood: extremely powerful release of all those
Joanne Lockwood: emotions. I'm happy to burst into tears in front of the television.
Joanne Lockwood: If I'm having a deep conversation with someone professionally, we'll all end up having a
Joanne Lockwood: cry and a hug. I find it's just such a release now that
Joanne Lockwood: I don't have to hold that in. It's almost like I've got
Joanne Lockwood: permission to be female, to be emotional, and therefore I'm going
Joanne Lockwood: to bathe in it and use it to my advantage or to my self
Joanne Lockwood: care. And I think you're right there, allowing yourself
Joanne Lockwood: to share and show those emotions
Joanne Lockwood: without any bound, without anybody judging you.
Joanne Lockwood: And as a woman, I don't get judged for crying. It's almost like, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: she's crying again. It's expected. Or my wife will say, oh, there's hormones.
Joanne Lockwood: Here we go. I go. It's great. I'm loving
Joanne Lockwood: it. It's fantastic. So, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's a really insightful thing, what you said. There is. You can cry
Joanne Lockwood: four times in memory, and those were over winning or
Joanne Lockwood: losing a sporting competition or your team losing or something, or winning.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, we got to give permission, not just
Joanne Lockwood: to men, to people, to let this out. It's a natural human
Joanne Lockwood: release, isn't it? Maybe we're training people to hold it in rather than express
Joanne Lockwood: it. You've got to stay
Greg Wasserman: strong, or I can't show weakness, or
Greg Wasserman: there's a problem with that. If you're always staying
Greg Wasserman: strong, then where is the
Greg Wasserman: joy and the beauty of actually, quote unquote, being human
Greg Wasserman: and weak and allowing that?
Greg Wasserman: I empathise for parents who are like, I've got to
Greg Wasserman: show strength. Even though my life is in a
Greg Wasserman: tail spin at the moment, as whatever's going on at work and I got
Greg Wasserman: my kids, there's a lot more that you're taking on
Greg Wasserman: as I watch my brother and my sister in law with my niece.
Greg Wasserman: But sometimes there's strength and there's
Greg Wasserman: beauty in going, like, it's okay to not be okay.
Greg Wasserman: And if you teach kids that, if we teach
Greg Wasserman: each other that, wow, once again, how amazing that
Greg Wasserman: would be. Because then we'rE all not trying to be stoic, we're all not trying
Greg Wasserman: to be strong. We're allowing ourselves to be
Greg Wasserman: human, to be vulnerable. If you
Joanne Lockwood: think about maybe back to high school, college,
Joanne Lockwood: don't the big, brave, strong men have the best life?
Joanne Lockwood: And then the kids that are maybe emotionally
Joanne Lockwood: weaker and expressing themselves have kind of like
Joanne Lockwood: the not so great life. They don't get the girls, they don't get the hero
Joanne Lockwood: story. We're setting ourselves up for men having to be
Joanne Lockwood: brave and strong to get the girl, to get the hero, to be the
Joanne Lockwood: success that's still propagated in movies and
Joanne Lockwood: Disney and other cultures, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, if we go
Greg Wasserman: back to Disney and the movies we all grew up,
Greg Wasserman: I mean, they perpetuated a lot of that, hopefully. I think
Greg Wasserman: things now, if you look at, you've got more female character led movies.
Greg Wasserman: So we're changing that. The thought of the prince
Greg Wasserman: rescuing the princess is what we grew up on. Right. So
Greg Wasserman: that narrative is changing, which is amazing. And I think
Greg Wasserman: as we continue to evolve, and that's why I'm
Greg Wasserman: here, to try and let people know.
Greg Wasserman: People just want to be heard. They just want to be
Greg Wasserman: understood. They want vulnerability. We just don't know how it
Greg Wasserman: to do it because we weren't taught. So how do we start teaching this? How
Greg Wasserman: do we start changing that perspective?
Greg Wasserman: It will stop a lot. It will.
Joanne Lockwood: It's almost like we got to help educate parents,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe even pre parents, when you're planning a
Joanne Lockwood: family, as to how to bring your children up,
Joanne Lockwood: to nurture them in a more,
Joanne Lockwood: less stereotyped, less gendered way, to use more
Joanne Lockwood: empathy, to use more compassion. And it's not about winner
Joanne Lockwood: takes all. It's not about having to be the best. I think if we can
Joanne Lockwood: educate our next generation of parents with
Joanne Lockwood: these tools and skills, otherwise all they're going to do is, like yourself,
Joanne Lockwood: propagate the behaviour and
Joanne Lockwood: the parenting model that you were given by your parents.
Greg Wasserman: I would go with not just educating them as
Greg Wasserman: parents, because I don't know if I'll have kids.
Greg Wasserman: So it's more of a matter of just educating us as humans and
Greg Wasserman: that's going to make us better regardless. As
Greg Wasserman: if I'm a breeder, or if I'm not right, if I'm adopting, if I'm
Greg Wasserman: not right, if I have kids, whatever the case may be, it's going to make
Greg Wasserman: us as better, it's going to make you a better partner, it's going to make
Greg Wasserman: you a better coworker, it's going to make you a better human
Greg Wasserman: being, able to have honest conversations with your boss and going, look,
Greg Wasserman: my father passed away two months ago, and I had to tell,
Greg Wasserman: as you know, I'm at a startup and I'm like, I got three co founders.
Greg Wasserman: I'm like, I don't want to let them down because there's so
Greg Wasserman: much to be doing. But I was not in a mental place
Greg Wasserman: to do much of anything. And they're incredibly supportive, and that goes
Greg Wasserman: to bereavement. We, as a society, usually have three to five days
Greg Wasserman: for bereavement. So we're allowing, as a society, going like,
Greg Wasserman: hold on, you just lost someone. There's grief. We have a problem with
Greg Wasserman: grief. I learned that one as well. So if we have a problem with. We
Greg Wasserman: have a lot of discomfort because we don't talk about these things. So if we
Greg Wasserman: can start forgetting parents and just doing it for ourselves and
Greg Wasserman: having these conversations and understanding, this is natural,
Greg Wasserman: and there's ways to go about this and that. We can remove
Greg Wasserman: that shame of A, not knowing, or
Greg Wasserman: B, feeling this way, we can become a better
Greg Wasserman: human race. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm going to give you a high five to that one. That's definitely a good
Joanne Lockwood: mantra and a good way to evolve our society.
Joanne Lockwood: I look back seven, eight years ago, when I
Joanne Lockwood: gender transitioned. I was at that point
Joanne Lockwood: where everything was dark, everything was dismal,
Joanne Lockwood: everything was kind of a stress point. There's lots of
Joanne Lockwood: holding secrets in trying to prop everything up,
Joanne Lockwood: and then this feeling of being the pain giver and
Joanne Lockwood: trying to be the pain fixer at the same time. All that pressure of playing
Joanne Lockwood: all those roles. And I think I learned, I
Joanne Lockwood: came up with an affirmation, which is just two words, I
Joanne Lockwood: am. And that, for me, solved a lot of my baggage
Joanne Lockwood: and my demons, because I was trying to wrestle with, as you
Joanne Lockwood: say, not being good enough, trying to fix things, trying to work out,
Joanne Lockwood: rationalise my ideNtity, rationalise all the things in my head. And
Joanne Lockwood: then I realised I didn't need to rationalise them. They didn't need fixing, they didn't
Joanne Lockwood: need understanding, they just needed accepting that I am who I
Joanne Lockwood: am. And I think once I found that affirmation, everything
Joanne Lockwood: clicked into place. I didn't need the
Joanne Lockwood: answer. There was no answer. There was no
Joanne Lockwood: problem in reality. There was just an acceptance of
Joanne Lockwood: self. And once I was able to accept self, it
Joanne Lockwood: allowed. Enabled other people to accept me based on that affirmation,
Joanne Lockwood: if you like. So I think, as you say, we
Joanne Lockwood: hold it in, we build this pressure cooker and it's finding that
Joanne Lockwood: release so that it doesn't explode through
Joanne Lockwood: stress, through depression, through hopelessness, whatever
Joanne Lockwood: it may be, and just stepping back, going,
Joanne Lockwood: I need out for a minute. I need out. Let me just take some time.
Joanne Lockwood: Let me be me for a bit. Let me talk to you. Listen to me.
Joanne Lockwood: Rather than feeling this need to say, hold it in and be the
Joanne Lockwood: one that is invincible. Can
Greg Wasserman: I ask you a question on that? Go for it.
Greg Wasserman: I'm finding at 41, almost,
Greg Wasserman: that I am able to go, like, I don't care about anyone else, right? Like,
Greg Wasserman: I have reached that point of, like, I am who I am. I'm accepting
Greg Wasserman: that. So you reach that point at whatever
Greg Wasserman: age. But before that,
Greg Wasserman: right, the question is, could you have accepted
Greg Wasserman: I am who I am earlier? And
Greg Wasserman: how do we get people to accept who they are earlier? It's
Greg Wasserman: a hard thing, right? Because you had all this pressure, you
Greg Wasserman: had all this fear, you had all these things going on. So how do we
Greg Wasserman: get that I am moment accepted earlier?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Could I have found it earlier? I don't know. I don't know,
Joanne Lockwood: actually, because a lot of it's caught up with shame, fear
Joanne Lockwood: of failure, rejection, all these kind of things, these
Joanne Lockwood: human instincts, fear of failure, fear of rejection. Shame is a powerful
Joanne Lockwood: emotion. Brene Brown talks about it a lot, about shame
Joanne Lockwood: and guilt. There's useless emotions that we can't do anything with,
Joanne Lockwood: but you're caught up in it. The fear of the unknown, the fear of taking
Joanne Lockwood: that step forward, that irrevocable step that once you've said it, you
Joanne Lockwood: can't unsay it. And then the fear of being judged for doing
Joanne Lockwood: it. And I don't think I could have,
Joanne Lockwood: looking back on my life,
Joanne Lockwood: found an earlier time zone. I needed to revolve into it. I needed to take
Joanne Lockwood: those small steps, nudge up to the edge of the cliff, look
Joanne Lockwood: down it a few times, look down it a few times, and then realise it
Joanne Lockwood: was only a centimetre drop. It wasn't thousand feet, it was a
Joanne Lockwood: centimetre an inch, half an inch. I
Joanne Lockwood: think I had to discover that myself. And
Joanne Lockwood: I had people in my sort of social
Joanne Lockwood: network who were going through similar kind of
Joanne Lockwood: demons in their head around being trans at the time. So it
Joanne Lockwood: helped to have other people to bounce this stuff off, to realise that I wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: crazy on my own, so I didn't do it alone. I didn't
Joanne Lockwood: actually have active help, but I knew there were other people. It wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: just me, which gave me the belief that it was
Joanne Lockwood: solvable. If you seen. I've seen people come out the other side
Joanne Lockwood: intact, so I knew it was possible. And I think it was just a
Joanne Lockwood: case of after I gender transitioned, after I sold my previous
Joanne Lockwood: IT company business. Sat on the end of my bed in tears, not being able
Joanne Lockwood: to sleep each night, going round around circles, trying to fix this problem.
Joanne Lockwood: Laying awake. Laying awake, really kind of
Joanne Lockwood: tearful, angry, depressed,
Joanne Lockwood: retreating into myself. And I said, the
Joanne Lockwood: art became to me one day that I am. And I woke up and
Joanne Lockwood: the sun came out, the curtains opened, and I suddenly
Joanne Lockwood: found my purpose in life. And I often talk about
Joanne Lockwood: the Japanese saying, Ikigai. It's where those four
Joanne Lockwood: elements intersect. What you love, what you're good at, what you get paid for,
Joanne Lockwood: and what the world needs. And I realised that I hadn't actually
Joanne Lockwood: locked into place what I love. I was good at
Joanne Lockwood: stuff, I was getting paid for stuff, and the world needed it, but I didn't
Joanne Lockwood: have my heart and passion in it. I think a combination
Joanne Lockwood: between I am and realising what fulfilled
Joanne Lockwood: me allowed me to bring that together.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think once you've made a huge. The
Joanne Lockwood: conversations you share today, once you've made those big
Joanne Lockwood: fundamental life announcements or sharing what you
Joanne Lockwood: shared, it becomes very easy, or a lot easier
Joanne Lockwood: to share other things in your life because you're no longer held back by fear.
Joanne Lockwood: You're almost empowered to talk about
Joanne Lockwood: things and to share things. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but
Joanne Lockwood: do you feel stronger and more empowered to share things now than you've ever
Joanne Lockwood: done? Oh, my God, completely.
Greg Wasserman: If there's fear in me, I go, okay, let's go
Greg Wasserman: talk about this. Because as soon as I keep letting that fear
Greg Wasserman: stay inside, whether it's through a rubber
Greg Wasserman: duck or whatever, it's like, all right, how
Greg Wasserman: do I share this? Whether it's therapist or someone else going like, all
Greg Wasserman: right, am I crazy? Is this a
Greg Wasserman: normal emotion? That's where you're looking, the validation? So it's like, all
Greg Wasserman: right, before, I was keeping everything in my head. And so when you're keeping everything
Greg Wasserman: in your head, yeah, you're going to go down a
Greg Wasserman: ruminating rabbit hole. That's probably not good for you, but when you start talking
Greg Wasserman: about it, I'm like, I love your concept. I am Popeye,
Greg Wasserman: right? Why was Popeye so famous? Because he is who he is,
Greg Wasserman: and that's his thing. And so once we start understanding that,
Greg Wasserman: the problem is once again, as, like, we say these
Greg Wasserman: buzwords, like, oh, everyone, you should be Popeye. Like, what's great about Popeye?
Greg Wasserman: He is who he is, and that's great, but we don't accept that. We don't
Greg Wasserman: really accept that. We want you to have that, but, like, do we really accept
Greg Wasserman: that? Those in your network that do. Back to
Greg Wasserman: your story. And you had a community. Like, you weren't alone.
Greg Wasserman: I felt alone. I felt if I shared any of
Greg Wasserman: these things, that it would not actually
Greg Wasserman: go. So it was the fear of if I share
Greg Wasserman: what I couldn't control, and that becomes a perfectionist mindset. You're, like, perfect,
Greg Wasserman: right? You want to control things, but
Greg Wasserman: I love that I'm going to have to look into the Japanese. One phrase
Greg Wasserman: I love from the Japanese. What is it? I always screw
Greg Wasserman: it up. Kinsuji, where it's putting broken
Greg Wasserman: pieces together, but with gold, so it allows
Greg Wasserman: the beauty of you. You're not broken, right. You can be put back
Greg Wasserman: together, but allowing those broken pieces instead of just glueing
Greg Wasserman: it so it's back to the original piece, it's like, no, show that with the
Greg Wasserman: gold and your cracks are beautiful. You are
Greg Wasserman: beautiful. Who you are and all elements of
Greg Wasserman: you. Once we accept that,
Greg Wasserman: back to you. I am. When we accept who we are,
Greg Wasserman: that becomes a beautiful thing. That's truly
Joanne Lockwood: beautiful, because I want you to see all of me. I want you to see
Joanne Lockwood: the broken bits, the healed bits, the scars, because that's part of my
Joanne Lockwood: essence, is how the adversity I've overcome, the
Joanne Lockwood: challenges I've picked myself up from. That's so
Joanne Lockwood: beautiful, those golden threads, those golden joins. Because I often
Joanne Lockwood: use the analogy of taking a piece of paper, screwing it up, and then
Joanne Lockwood: trying to flatten it out. It will never be the same perfect bit of paper,
Joanne Lockwood: but I've never thought of it in the way you framed it as, see
Joanne Lockwood: those scars, see those healing, and
Joanne Lockwood: see what I've been through. Don't see that crumpled bit of paper as
Joanne Lockwood: broken. See it as whole with life
Joanne Lockwood: and lived experience. I love that
Joanne Lockwood: I'm going to look up that and. And bring that into my mindset as
Joanne Lockwood: well. Thank you. That's really powerful.
Greg Wasserman: Yeah. When I heard that one, I cried, of course, because I'm like,
Greg Wasserman: wow, that is a powerful way
Greg Wasserman: to look at you, going like, I am all these
Greg Wasserman: things and you can be all those things. The
Greg Wasserman: question is, are you willing to allow others to see those? And
Greg Wasserman: goes back to the start of this conversation, like, if we can actually start
Greg Wasserman: listening to people and giving them the
Greg Wasserman: space so that they feel like they can be who they
Greg Wasserman: are, then we'll all be walking
Greg Wasserman: around covered in gold, and that's kind of cool.
Joanne Lockwood: It also plays into the kind of, when people say,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't see gender, I don't see ethnicity, I don't see race, I don't see
Joanne Lockwood: this, I don't see that. I just treat everybody the same and I want to
Joanne Lockwood: go, no, I want you to see me for who I am. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: exactly what you're saying. I want you to see those cracks. I want you to
Joanne Lockwood: see where I've healed and all of those things that I've come through,
Joanne Lockwood: because that makes me me. That's the
Joanne Lockwood: power I have. We talked about superpowers at the beginning. My superpower is
Joanne Lockwood: I'm etched in gold, where I've healed myself and pulled myself
Joanne Lockwood: up. I think that's a great analogy.
Joanne Lockwood: I'll put that in the show notes so we can share that.
Joanne Lockwood: Fabulous. So going back to
Joanne Lockwood: the period of, excuse the euphemism, call it
Joanne Lockwood: your dark time, where you are not sure
Joanne Lockwood: whether tomorrow would come or not or whether you'd make different choices.
Joanne Lockwood: We often talk about the difference between being alone and lonely.
Joanne Lockwood: And you can be lonely in a room full of people,
Joanne Lockwood: and you can be alone and yet fulfilled and happy.
Joanne Lockwood: You are probably experiencing being lonely in
Joanne Lockwood: life, regardless of who you were surrounded by. 100%,
Greg Wasserman: like I said, no one knew.
Greg Wasserman: When I tell the story, there's no way you're a glass half full person.
Greg Wasserman: There's no way. It's a shock. And it's like,
Greg Wasserman: no, you get really good
Greg Wasserman: at putting up a front to allow
Greg Wasserman: society to see what you want society to see
Greg Wasserman: and not letting people truly in. Because
Greg Wasserman: if you did, there's the fear
Greg Wasserman: of what they would see, what you would feel.
Greg Wasserman: So you kept that all inside. So, yeah, it goes back to
Greg Wasserman: the early part of this conversation. Like,
Greg Wasserman: you feel so lonely because you don't know how to share
Greg Wasserman: those things. You are afraid you're not told and
Greg Wasserman: taught that you can share those things.
Greg Wasserman: Or if you're told, like, oh, I want you to share these things with me,
Greg Wasserman: then there's a judgement or there's a fix. It's easier to not
Greg Wasserman: share these things. So I'm going to continue to not share
Greg Wasserman: things about myself because I am
Greg Wasserman: fearful of the response that's going to be given and the response that's going to
Greg Wasserman: be given is you shouldn't feel those things. Or how could you?
Greg Wasserman: It's a standard. If you think about, we were talking offline about
Greg Wasserman: food, it's like
Greg Wasserman: if they comment about their weight, they're like, oh, but you're not fat. Or whatever
Greg Wasserman: the case may be. It's like you're not helping the situation because
Greg Wasserman: that's how they feel. You literally just told this person, don't feel the
Greg Wasserman: way you feel. You didn't validate how they're feeling. You
Greg Wasserman: are just trying to go like, well, compared to other people. Like, oh, you're so
Greg Wasserman: skinny, or whatever. It's like, we have that as a societal, and
Greg Wasserman: I'm just using weight and food because that came to mind when we're talking
Greg Wasserman: about it. But, yeah, we are so
Greg Wasserman: quick to, in that instance, not
Greg Wasserman: even me, too. It's just like, well, you're not. And it's like, I'm going to
Greg Wasserman: boost you up because you're tearing yourself down. But they're
Greg Wasserman: not tearing themselves down. That is how they feel. So how do we
Greg Wasserman: actually allow them to feel that? And what is it that they need to
Greg Wasserman: hear or feel?
Greg Wasserman: I'm in great shape. So when I tell people I'm out of shape, they're
Greg Wasserman: like, but you look great. I'm like, okay, looks is one thing,
Greg Wasserman: how I feel, what I'm used to.
Greg Wasserman: I worked out last night. I'm like, oh, this is kicking my butt.
Greg Wasserman: I'm so out of shape right now. And then other people are like, well, compared
Greg Wasserman: to me, you look great. Those are the things that play with
Greg Wasserman: once we stop realising how a person's feeling, what they're
Greg Wasserman: thinking, and we validate that instead of trying to go like, oh, you're
Greg Wasserman: not. Or like, me, too. Yeah,
Greg Wasserman: that lonely feeling was there because you're like, no
Greg Wasserman: one's going to validate anything I'm saying right now.
Greg Wasserman: Who do I talk to? Yeah, I hear you.
Joanne Lockwood: You talk about having a workout last night. I am not
Joanne Lockwood: anyone's athlete. You look at me, I'm 58 years old.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm significantly, probably twice the weight I should
Joanne Lockwood: be for my height, certainly my age. And I
Joanne Lockwood: have a gym session each week. I have a personal trainer. We do an hour
Joanne Lockwood: together. And I don't pretend that I'm fit, but I do come
Joanne Lockwood: out of those sessions. She kicks my
Joanne Lockwood: butt, basically. She works me and works me and works me. So I come
Joanne Lockwood: out of that hour and I can't walk I can't breathe, I've got to sit
Joanne Lockwood: down, I got to recover. She goes, are you okay? I said, yeah, I'm happy.
Joanne Lockwood: Knackered. I've delivered, I've done what I wanted to do today
Joanne Lockwood: and I don't ever expect to be fit,
Joanne Lockwood: but I take pleasure in doing the best I can, going back
Joanne Lockwood: to the perfectionist thing or putting my whole self into something to
Joanne Lockwood: achieve. I don't want to walk away thinking, I left a bit. I want to
Joanne Lockwood: go walk away thinking, yes, you had everything today. And that was all I could
Joanne Lockwood: give. I think that's the sign of a good workout, that personal drive to
Joanne Lockwood: do all you can, regardless of compare with somebody. I don't need to compare myself
Joanne Lockwood: with somebody else. I don't care if I'm doing eight pounds and somebody else is
Joanne Lockwood: doing 16 pounds. It doesn't matter to me. I'm doing what I can do
Joanne Lockwood: to limit my ability. So, yeah, the comparison
Joanne Lockwood: is such a negative kind of emotion and
Joanne Lockwood: trait. We should judge ourselves by ourselves.
Joanne Lockwood: And when I set this new business up,
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, you talked about impostor syndrome or that feeling of not being good enough.
Joanne Lockwood: I started a new career, a new gender in a new
Joanne Lockwood: sector, and I had immense imposter syndrome. And what
Joanne Lockwood: I realised was I was evaluating myself against the standards
Joanne Lockwood: of others, not looking for my incremental improvement.
Joanne Lockwood: And as soon as I stopped comparing myself with
Joanne Lockwood: yesterday and started comparing myself with a month ago and two months
Joanne Lockwood: ago and a year ago, I realised that there was a differential,
Joanne Lockwood: but I was comparing myself at a micro level and not seeing much
Joanne Lockwood: improvement. So I think that's the important thing. When
Joanne Lockwood: people say, wow, you're doing great, you're moving on, you've come a long way.
Joanne Lockwood: You don't go and argue with them, you go, thank
Joanne Lockwood: you, really, thank you, and accept what they're
Joanne Lockwood: saying as validation and not
Joanne Lockwood: just fake platitudes and
Joanne Lockwood: sayings. Most people mean it. And that's what I had
Joanne Lockwood: to do. I had to learn to say thank you and
Joanne Lockwood: really absorb that to enable me
Joanne Lockwood: to sort of, kind of manage my impostor syndrome. I
Joanne Lockwood: think that's what I ended up doing. You gave
Greg Wasserman: me a thought that I'm going to have to ponder on, because
Greg Wasserman: if I say it, it's not fleshed out. I know in my
Greg Wasserman: head it doesn't make sense, but it's like when you're
Greg Wasserman: talking about comparison, it is truly a negative thing. And
Greg Wasserman: so I compared. I compared myself all
Greg Wasserman: the time. Self deprecation was my thing
Greg Wasserman: and taking a compliment was not something you could do,
Greg Wasserman: because if you have a perfectionist mindset, how could you take a complimeNt?
Greg Wasserman: Right? I'm not perfect. There's more I could do.
Greg Wasserman: I fed off of. Tell me what was wrong so I can
Greg Wasserman: fix it. Because if I knew what was wrong, that means I could go and
Greg Wasserman: try and become perfect, as opposed to accepting like, you were good
Greg Wasserman: enough or you did the best you could. It's like,
Greg Wasserman: no, tell me I could have done better. So how do I fix that?
Greg Wasserman: Especially in a corporate world,
Greg Wasserman: especially in the sales? Like, I want a hunter who's going to go out there
Greg Wasserman: and close all these business deals and so forth. It's like, when you're
Greg Wasserman: looking for that, you create a culture that's probably not healthy, but
Greg Wasserman: it's going to do great for your business. But your mental health of
Greg Wasserman: your employees is probably not great. So there's
Greg Wasserman: a balance there. But, yeah, comparison is such a negative
Greg Wasserman: trait, and we do it all the time, in
Greg Wasserman: everything we do. And social media doesn't help in that regard.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, the instaculture, the philtres, the
Joanne Lockwood: Snapchat, the pressure on
Joanne Lockwood: younger people today, being always on, always
Joanne Lockwood: compared. Chasing the likes, chasing the validation.
Greg Wasserman: Aren't you glad both of us didn't grow up with social media in that regard?
Greg Wasserman: Like, imagine where mental health would have been then. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: No phones, capturing photographs of everything we did. We got up
Joanne Lockwood: to stuff and it disappeared. It never existed. And I'm
Joanne Lockwood: glad I can't remember some of it because I did some crazy stuff. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure you did as well. And it's gone. And we can laugh about it around
Joanne Lockwood: the campfire, but we got no evidence. We can't post it all over social
Joanne Lockwood: media. But yes, it's a tough gig. And the mental health
Joanne Lockwood: of younger people is really impactful.
Joanne Lockwood: We see bullying because in my day. In your day, we went home,
Joanne Lockwood: we could escape it. We shut the front door. And unless we had people being
Joanne Lockwood: vicious and phoning us up and saying things, we largely had safe
Joanne Lockwood: zones where we weren't being. But now your phone
Joanne Lockwood: vibrates and it's a bully. It's a negativity. Or
Joanne Lockwood: even if we didn't talk to someone for a couple of days, that was the
Joanne Lockwood: worst it got. Or we maybe pinched them occasionally or poked them
Joanne Lockwood: or somethIng. That was our bullying of our day. But now it's
Joanne Lockwood: intense. And it's not just the circle around you. It's the
Joanne Lockwood: infinite amount of connections, the thousands and thousands and
Joanne Lockwood: thousands of people who can pile on to a stranger and
Joanne Lockwood: reinforce negativity so destructive these days.
Greg Wasserman: And to that point, the fact that it is an infinite amount
Greg Wasserman: of people that are influencing you, which makes it even more
Greg Wasserman: crucial that we are creating habits and
Greg Wasserman: mental structures within side all of
Greg Wasserman: us. So that, all right, a troll is a troll. It's
Greg Wasserman: not going to bother me because I accept people are going to be like
Greg Wasserman: that. And negative feedback is just as good as
Greg Wasserman: positive feedback. And those are someone's opinions, and that's perception. And
Greg Wasserman: I am who I am and I'm going to be there, and I like that.
Greg Wasserman: But we're not training the people appropriately.
Greg Wasserman: To philtre, that, and that's a hard thing.
Greg Wasserman: Yeah. And feedback. If I don't value your opinion as a
Joanne Lockwood: person, then I don't have to accept your feedback. I can
Joanne Lockwood: leave that present unopened, I can return it to sender. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't need to absorb your feedback into my life, or I
Joanne Lockwood: can frame it in such a way that, okay, that's one person's opinion. Okay,
Joanne Lockwood: if everybody gives me similar feedback, then maybe I should learn and
Joanne Lockwood: adapt and listen. But if it's a one off, out of context
Joanne Lockwood: with everything else, then it's just. I call it graffiti.
Joanne Lockwood: Like you're driving down through a ghetto and you see all these
Joanne Lockwood: hate words sprayed on the wall and it's just someone being
Joanne Lockwood: angry at the world. You don't know who I am. Your words
Joanne Lockwood: aren't directed at me, you're just being angry at someone. A
Joanne Lockwood: stereotype like me. That's fine. I can drive by
Joanne Lockwood: Anglesco and I can ignore it. It's just graffiti. I don't
Joanne Lockwood: take it personally, but it does take a very strong mindset to
Joanne Lockwood: be able to philtre out that noise
Joanne Lockwood: and contextualise it as just junk, because many
Joanne Lockwood: people will bring that in, into their psyche and they'll want to argue, they
Joanne Lockwood: want to fight, they want to debate it, they want to bring it in. And
Joanne Lockwood: those emotions aren't productive either.
Joanne Lockwood: Being able to let things go and not get absorbed
Joanne Lockwood: by the negativity again, it's a trait I've
Joanne Lockwood: learned over the last few years, to be able to,
Joanne Lockwood: and I wouldn't say it's about putting a suit of armour on and protecting myself
Joanne Lockwood: all the time. It's around just being able to
Joanne Lockwood: philtre out the noise and move forward. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think a lot of people don't necessarily have that
Joanne Lockwood: ability, but it's helped my mental health no end to be able to
Joanne Lockwood: compartmentalise noise and just close it
Joanne Lockwood: down. You bring up an interesting point. We also struggle.
Greg Wasserman: We're defensive as a society. So
Greg Wasserman: if I give feedback, I'm going to go, like, hold on, now
Greg Wasserman: you're attacking me. So it's all a matter of I'm defensive. And so
Greg Wasserman: that's where the argument starts, as opposed to, like, hold on.
Greg Wasserman: What is this person trying to show me? What are they trying to tell me?
Greg Wasserman: Can we sit here and actually have a conversation? It's like, no, I'm going to
Greg Wasserman: get defensive and that is the ego getting attacked. Right.
Greg Wasserman: If I think about things in that regard. So if
Greg Wasserman: we can just realise it's a US together as opposed
Greg Wasserman: to me against you, we'll also be better in
Greg Wasserman: that regard. Yeah. And I often say
Joanne Lockwood: when people are coming at me wanting an argument and I just
Joanne Lockwood: say, I don't owe you an argument. I don't owe you a debate.
Joanne Lockwood: If you want to have this conversation, I'm not the person that's going to
Joanne Lockwood: sit here and want to engage in it. You can tell me
Joanne Lockwood: about my identity, you can tell me about what your belief is and you can
Joanne Lockwood: tell me about biology, you can tell me all these things. I go, I don't
Joanne Lockwood: owe you a discussion. I am. I'm me. I can't explain it.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not going to debate it with you. Sorry, but this conversation is not going
Joanne Lockwood: to give you productive for either of us. You just want to tell me you're
Joanne Lockwood: right and attack me. I don't need to get involved in that conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: So I think being able to step out of it sometimes and not
Joanne Lockwood: owe someone a debate, not get engaged in something where it's
Joanne Lockwood: nonproductive and it's not bottling it, it's not
Joanne Lockwood: avoiding the conversation. It's just saying this is not productive for
Joanne Lockwood: either of us. You just want to be right. Whatever I say,
Joanne Lockwood: we're not going to change each other's opinions. So I don't need to have a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation where you want to be right without listening to me. So
Joanne Lockwood: I can do that in the pub, in the bar, somewhere with somebody
Joanne Lockwood: else, I might enjoy it. Right.
Joanne Lockwood: Greg, we've been chatting now for an hour and a
Joanne Lockwood: half bit in the green room and an hour on here.
Joanne Lockwood: Amazing. And thank you for sharing
Joanne Lockwood: your story. When you said to me that you wanted to take part and you
Joanne Lockwood: had something you wanted to share, that was deep, I
Joanne Lockwood: had no real idea as to what you were going to say or how you're
Joanne Lockwood: going to say it, and I let it unfold and, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: thank you for trusting me. Thank you for coming here and saying what you said.
Joanne Lockwood: But also thank you for being,
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose, a friend. We've known each
Joanne Lockwood: other superficially through Slack and through a
Joanne Lockwood: product that you're a part of. I'm quite a fangirl of cast
Joanne Lockwood: magic and I'll be using it for the show notes for this episode.
Joanne Lockwood: So tell us more about cast magic, tell us more about how to get hold
Joanne Lockwood: of you and how to find out about the mean. Once
Greg Wasserman: again, thank you so much for making this a reality and
Greg Wasserman: having this conversation, giving me. I don't
Greg Wasserman: drink coffee, but a coffee chat over something that's very
Greg Wasserman: serious to me and why I want others.
Greg Wasserman: And that's what I love about what I do. So cast magic, it's
Greg Wasserman: platform that allows you to take any audio and video
Greg Wasserman: and repurpose it. So you can take this podcast, you
Greg Wasserman: can take your speaking engagements. What I love about
Greg Wasserman: what I do goes back to my thesis, life is about time,
Greg Wasserman: relationships. And so I get to connect with people like
Greg Wasserman: you through our slack community, through a product that is
Greg Wasserman: helping your business. And then I get to serve you and go like, how do
Greg Wasserman: I help you? How's this doing that? So I'm on
Greg Wasserman: LinkedIn. That is where most of my content lives. Every
Greg Wasserman: Monday I post three podcasts I think people should listen to.
Greg Wasserman: I am trying to constantly tell people on how to
Greg Wasserman: help their podcasting journey, how to help with their
Greg Wasserman: brand identity and a partnership person. So partnerships
Greg Wasserman: as well. It's kind of where I live. And this is the
Greg Wasserman: transition of 2024 into the ethos of how
Greg Wasserman: do I continue to tell a story to help people from a mental health standpoint?
Greg Wasserman: While it's now the trendy thing, it's something
Greg Wasserman: that is great. I can jump on because I know
Greg Wasserman: where I was a year ago and if I can just help one person
Greg Wasserman: feel less lonely
Greg Wasserman: and help one manager understand how to have a better
Greg Wasserman: conversation, that's all I need. That's so
Joanne Lockwood: powerful. Help one person have a
Joanne Lockwood: better outcome as a result of a conversation with you. I think that's
Joanne Lockwood: an easy thing so often not achieved by
Joanne Lockwood: many. But yeah, it's a good starting point. We're not trying to change the world.
Joanne Lockwood: If I can just change one person, we can all do that. We can all
Joanne Lockwood: influence the one, if you like, change ourselves, influence those around
Joanne Lockwood: us. So very powerful. Thank you. Amazing.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you to you, the listener, for getting this far. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: we've had been online now for about an hour and hour and five minutes. Thank
Joanne Lockwood: you for getting to the end. I really appreciate you and I hope you found
Joanne Lockwood: this conversation as insightful and powerful as I have,
Joanne Lockwood: please do subscribe. If you're not already subscribed to keep updated on
Joanne Lockwood: future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's
Joanne Lockwood: B-I-T-E-S. Please share the love, tell your friends, tell your
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues. I've got other exciting guests lined up over the
Joanne Lockwood: next few weeks and months, and it won't be long till we're at episode
Joanne Lockwood: 100. Yay. Fireworks. So I'm looking
Joanne Lockwood: forward to that episode, that milestone. Of course, if you want to be a
Joanne Lockwood: guest like our guest today, Greg and others I've had in the past, if you'd
Joanne Lockwood: like to come on the show and you just want to tell a story, you
Joanne Lockwood: want to have a conversation with me, please do drop me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: If you got any other suggestions. Also please let me know.
Joanne Lockwood: Finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It
Joanne Lockwood: has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today.
Joanne Lockwood: Catch you next time. Bye.