Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for
Joanne Lockwood: the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I
Joanne Lockwood: have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and
Joanne Lockwood: generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive.
Joanne Lockwood: To join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: that's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You
Joanne Lockwood: can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify
Joanne Lockwood: and the usual places. So plug
Joanne Lockwood: in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get
Joanne Lockwood: going. Today is episode
Joanne Lockwood: 94 with the title beyond the
Joanne Lockwood: Closet, and I have the absolute honour and privilege to
Joanne Lockwood: welcome TJ Richards. TJ
Joanne Lockwood: described themselves as a programme manager and
Joanne Lockwood: LGBTQ plus network chair at Santander
Joanne Lockwood: and also chair of trustees at Q:Alliance.
Joanne Lockwood: And when I asked TJ to describe their superpower, they said,
Joanne Lockwood: is talking a superpower? Because they sure do love to do
Joanne Lockwood: it. Hey, TJ, how are you? Welcome to the show.
TJ Richards: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for allowing me
TJ Richards: to join you. I've been a huge fan of your show from the beginning
TJ Richards: and of know you and I have known each other for a couple of years,
TJ Richards: so really excited to be here. And
TJ Richards: when we talk about today's episode of beyond the
TJ Richards: Closet, I think that's such an amazing title because
TJ Richards: my journey, and I imagine a lot of other people's journey, is very similar,
TJ Richards: is that working out that you're in the closet in the first
TJ Richards: place and then that journey of figuring out how the hell you
TJ Richards: get out of the closet and what that looks like for you and how you
TJ Richards: live a life without those boundaries. And it's such an
TJ Richards: exciting topic. I'm really excited to be here today and talk to you about
TJ Richards: it.
Joanne Lockwood: For most people, and I say most, the majority, we've had a census,
Joanne Lockwood: we know that it's. Majority of people don't even realise there is
Joanne Lockwood: a closet or something to escape, do they? They
Joanne Lockwood: just wake up and they're always themselves.
TJ Richards: Yeah. And it's so amazing because it's not
TJ Richards: until you stop to ask yourself that question
TJ Richards: that you start to realise whether you are
TJ Richards: in a closet. And maybe closet is an outdated term, I don't
TJ Richards: know. Certainly the term I grew up with. But
TJ Richards: finding out, realising that actually you're operating within a set of
TJ Richards: boundaries that you've not necessarily chosen for yourself,
TJ Richards: and that could be your sexuality, that could be your gender
TJ Richards: identity, that could be just the social role that society has
TJ Richards: put on you based on your perception. To them
TJ Richards: all of those boundaries play into sort of how you operate
TJ Richards: in the world. And realising that actually I don't have
TJ Richards: to is quite liberating and revolutionary in
TJ Richards: a sense. And it's a journey I think many of us have gone on. And
TJ Richards: honestly, I wish the whole world would go on it, because it's a question we
TJ Richards: can all answer for ourselves. Whatever the answer is, who
TJ Richards: do I want to be in the world, and how do I be that
TJ Richards: person in a way that makes the world a better place? Like you
TJ Richards: said, that's the ultimate goal, to leave it a little bit
TJ Richards: better than we found it. Right? Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Essentially, you question whether closet is an outdated term. I suppose
Joanne Lockwood: when I was going through my self discovery and
Joanne Lockwood: exploration, I kind of used the metaphor around
Joanne Lockwood: the three phases. The first one was a cage, a zoo.
Joanne Lockwood: You're trapped behind the bars, living by somebody
Joanne Lockwood: else's rules, where you have no negotiation. You're trapped
Joanne Lockwood: in that cage, basically existing under someone else's
Joanne Lockwood: rules. And then the fire. Extreme I've talked about was
Joanne Lockwood: the plains of Africa. Wild, roaming
Joanne Lockwood: free. But then you're living in a world where you have got no
Joanne Lockwood: safety, you've got no guarantee of support, no family
Joanne Lockwood: around you. You're at a waterhole, being risked by eating by a
Joanne Lockwood: lion or an alligator or a crocodile jumping out at you. So I was always
Joanne Lockwood: trying to find what I called my safari park, which is kind of
Joanne Lockwood: this place you can exist where the boundaries were so great, you never hit
Joanne Lockwood: the fences, you got fed, you got looked
Joanne Lockwood: after, you got someone caring for you. If you were ill or sick, someone was
Joanne Lockwood: there. But you don't feel trapped because the
Joanne Lockwood: boundaries are so vast and bountiful. And then you
Joanne Lockwood: can exist in that world outside of the cage, and
Joanne Lockwood: not in the wild, in this safe zone. And that's what I was always trying
Joanne Lockwood: to find. I called it trying to find my safari park
Joanne Lockwood: existence.
TJ Richards: I've not thought about it in that way before, but I think you're right.
TJ Richards: There's a freedom to not having the bars around
TJ Richards: you, right? But there's
TJ Richards: risk to being completely on your own and
TJ Richards: exposed and unprotected as well. And
TJ Richards: that feeling, I think, of being completely on your own
TJ Richards: is unfortunately something that a lot of people in
TJ Richards: our community and outside of our community, but specifically for this
TJ Richards: topic, is something that a lot of us have gone through. I mean,
TJ Richards: I don't know about you, Jo, but when I came out to my
TJ Richards: family, it was a rocky road. And
TJ Richards: for a good while, we didn't
TJ Richards: talk because there was
TJ Richards: disbelief, maybe, or a full
TJ Richards: hearted belief that I was doing something that
TJ Richards: was putting my very soul in jeopardy. And it was their duty to
TJ Richards: tell me this over and over and over and over
TJ Richards: again. And I tried real hard
TJ Richards: and it's so hard to understand from. To be
TJ Richards: empathetic. From their point of view, they fully believed
TJ Richards: that I was making a mistake, that it was a phase,
TJ Richards: that I was doing something wrong and I fully believed the
TJ Richards: opposite. But if we had just shouted at each
TJ Richards: other and then shut down, that period of not talking would have
TJ Richards: never finished and there would have never been any progress. But
TJ Richards: that journey to
TJ Richards: allyship, right, like that journey, I had years
TJ Richards: to sit with the idea of, wow, I might
TJ Richards: be gay. And that was really, really hard. And it
TJ Richards: took me a long time to come to terms with it. And then I
TJ Richards: remember when I told my parents, in
TJ Richards: separate instances, because they were divorced,
TJ Richards: not being fully happy with the way that they responded, but
TJ Richards: also afterwards realising they had half a
TJ Richards: second to come to terms with that, whereas I had had years
TJ Richards: to think about it and come to terms with it and get used to the
TJ Richards: idea. And actually that allowed me to have a little bit of empathy
TJ Richards: for their perspective. I didn't agree with it, of course
TJ Richards: not, because I am me and I'm happy being me, but that
TJ Richards: space to grow, you have to give
TJ Richards: that space to think. And it's.
TJ Richards: I don't know where I was going with that. Jo, I told you, talking is
TJ Richards: a superpower. Staying on topic, not necessarily, but I think that it's
TJ Richards: that having that freedom to make that choice, but
TJ Richards: knowing that you've got a support network somewhere, family
TJ Richards: chosen family, community, whatever that is, I think
TJ Richards: that's so important. It also
Joanne Lockwood: respects the boundaries of society.
Joanne Lockwood: Social constructs. Not saying I want to be
Joanne Lockwood: constricted by social constructs, but I respect
Joanne Lockwood: there are constructs to follow. I will have a better experience in my
Joanne Lockwood: life if I'm willing to play some games
Joanne Lockwood: and compromise without impacting who I am.
Joanne Lockwood: I recognise that I have a responsibility to be a good citizen as well.
Joanne Lockwood: And the world doesn't always revolve around me. I'd like it to, as we'd all
Joanne Lockwood: would, but it doesn't revolve around me. I think what you're saying there about when
Joanne Lockwood: you said you shared
Joanne Lockwood: your sexuality, you shared your gender identity with people and
Joanne Lockwood: they thought you were making the wrong decision. I mean, I had a similar challenge
Joanne Lockwood: where I don't think people actually said I was making the wrong
Joanne Lockwood: decision. It was more, what about them?
Joanne Lockwood: So I've married, I've got two children. So my
Joanne Lockwood: wife was concerned about how it would reflect
Joanne Lockwood: on her, our marriage, her own sexuality,
Joanne Lockwood: her own sense of identity and her aspirations and dreams of the
Joanne Lockwood: future. So, quite rightly, she had a concern about her,
Joanne Lockwood: and obviously, I thought it was all about me. I didn't realise it was
Joanne Lockwood: actually about other people, that this transitioning malarkey. And my
Joanne Lockwood: daughter, our daughter, she
Joanne Lockwood: found it really, really difficult for many years, probably three or four years, and
Joanne Lockwood: we didn't talk a lot in that period because she had to come
Joanne Lockwood: out to her network, her friends, her colleagues,
Joanne Lockwood: and she was now the daughter of a trans dad, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like. So I didn't appreciate all these different dynamics at
Joanne Lockwood: play. That wasn't about me, it was about how I impacted
Joanne Lockwood: others. And, as you said, you have to have a level of empathy and
Joanne Lockwood: compassion for what I've triggered,
Joanne Lockwood: caused, and not my fault, it just is. But I've been the
Joanne Lockwood: catalyst for all these changes. And then I found the challenge
Joanne Lockwood: was being the pain giver, but also the pain
Joanne Lockwood: fixer. I had to try and make it better or smooth it over,
Joanne Lockwood: but I was the problem and that was probably the hardest thing
Joanne Lockwood: I had to come to terms with. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely
TJ Richards: right, because it's that
TJ Richards: understanding. Sorry, it's that understanding
TJ Richards: that the words that are coming out of your mouth, the
TJ Richards: decision that you've made to be honest about yourself
TJ Richards: and who you are and who you need to be in the world to thrive
TJ Richards: and be happy, that has effects on other
TJ Richards: people. It does. And I remember
TJ Richards: one conversation being told,
TJ Richards: well, what about my grandkids? I'm never going to have grandkids now because
TJ Richards: of this. And I thought, well, that's because I hate children.
TJ Richards: Not because I don't hate children, I love children. I'm
TJ Richards: definitely not. I'm child free by choice. But
TJ Richards: it was that they had expectations and
TJ Richards: plans for their life that involved me, because
TJ Richards: we're loved ones. And I was changing that
TJ Richards: dynamic and there were ripple effects
TJ Richards: of that that needed to be worked through, and we were
TJ Richards: eventually able to work through those together
TJ Richards: and arrive at a better place. But it was
TJ Richards: that acknowledgment that there's
TJ Richards: a journey that our loved ones have to go on to
TJ Richards: grow, and some of them are already there. Right. You see, I love
TJ Richards: seeing stories like I'm on TikTok all the time, of young people
TJ Richards: coming out to their parents and their parents being like, yeah, but I love you,
TJ Richards: so it doesn't matter. And
TJ Richards: it warms my heart, in a way. That also breaks it with
TJ Richards: happiness. Right? Like, amazing. And I love
TJ Richards: seeing the potential of where our society and where
TJ Richards: humanity can go when we just open ourselves up and say, I love
TJ Richards: you. That's all that matters. You're happy, I'm
TJ Richards: happy, I love you. Let's carry on and live our lives. And
TJ Richards: that's the world I want. And I think that's the world that as
TJ Richards: a sort of inclusion, belonging
TJ Richards: activists that we're all working for, right? We
TJ Richards: want that for ourselves and for future
TJ Richards: generations. It's got to get better. It's got
TJ Richards: to. I won't let it go anywhere else.
Joanne Lockwood: It's funny what you're saying there, about watching TikToks, about people
Joanne Lockwood: coming out to their parents and things. I came out to my mum
Joanne Lockwood: and I think she was 76 at the time, and it was
Joanne Lockwood: a coffee shop in the local town. We sat there having a coffee and I
Joanne Lockwood: was beaten around the bush and started crying and then just blurted it
Joanne Lockwood: out, sort of thing. And
Joanne Lockwood: fair play to my mum, she handled it
Joanne Lockwood: pretty well and she just listened and we talked.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not sure how much understanding or context she had around
Joanne Lockwood: it, but she talked and we talked. And
Joanne Lockwood: if you try and find resources on coming out to your parents,
Joanne Lockwood: it's all got young people imagery and young family
Joanne Lockwood: imagery on it. There's no manual on coming out to your
Joanne Lockwood: 80 year old family. So I've printed out all these
Joanne Lockwood: brochures, all these downloads, all these pdfs, and brought them with me and left them
Joanne Lockwood: in an envelope with a letter in there, because you know the way it is,
Joanne Lockwood: you come out, you say something, and immediately the person's got more questions
Joanne Lockwood: or they've misheard or something like that. So I made sure there was a letter
Joanne Lockwood: tag everything I was going to say and all this supporting documentation. I said, look,
Joanne Lockwood: here's an envelope. When you get home, you got to want to
Joanne Lockwood: think about this and digest it. Here's everything you could possibly want.
Joanne Lockwood: And we met again a couple of weeks later. She'd obviously read this cover to
Joanne Lockwood: cover several times, and she was starting to get on message. She
Joanne Lockwood: wasn't quite ready to embrace me as me,
Joanne Lockwood: but she said, give me time and let's talk about this,
Joanne Lockwood: let's evolve this. And I think it took about six months for her
Joanne Lockwood: to finally, I suppose, to be brave
Joanne Lockwood: enough to have me openly be with
Joanne Lockwood: her. It took a couple of more years to tell my dad,
Joanne Lockwood: but I did. Eventually, I wrote him a letter, because he's very hard of
Joanne Lockwood: hearing, and so writing a letter was much easier to put it
Joanne Lockwood: in context. And bless him.
Joanne Lockwood: His reply was very supportive. However, it had
Joanne Lockwood: a don't be hasty, we can fix you
Joanne Lockwood: type undercut in it, which it was well
Joanne Lockwood: meaning, it wasn't nasty, it wasn't malicious. It
Joanne Lockwood: was just this belief that from his
Joanne Lockwood: perspective and his lived experience, that queer people were
Joanne Lockwood: broken. And that's how he saw it. But he
Joanne Lockwood: wasn't disappointed in me. He wasn't rejecting me. He just wanted to
Joanne Lockwood: be fixed. I didn't respond to that letter. I left it a
Joanne Lockwood: year and wrote him another letter and just say, look, this is where I am.
Joanne Lockwood: This is what I'm doing. This is the success I've had as
Joanne Lockwood: me. Some examples of businesses I've worked for, things I've done
Joanne Lockwood: and achieved, sort of. Say, you can be proud of me. I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: broken. I don't need fixing. I've made a life and we're
Joanne Lockwood: loving it. So, yeah, I think you just got to bear with people. And
Joanne Lockwood: I could have easily fallen out. I could have easily reacted badly.
Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, I suppose the thing I've learned is around this talking,
Joanne Lockwood: communicating compassion. And I suppose the biggest lesson is it's not all
Joanne Lockwood: about me. That's the biggest thing I learned.
TJ Richards: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's funny you saying you wrote a letter and
TJ Richards: had supporting documents. That's what I know of you, Jo. That's so,
TJ Richards: Jo. When I
TJ Richards: came out to my mother first, I said my parents
TJ Richards: were divorced, so I came out to my mother first. That was
TJ Richards: left a lot to be desired. And we didn't talk for a while after that,
TJ Richards: although we've moved on. But when I was so
TJ Richards: nervous and so scared of coming out to my dad and my
TJ Richards: stepmom, and I don't know why, because that side of the
TJ Richards: family is so queer. So
TJ Richards: queer. Like, I don't know if there's something in the water in Mississippi
TJ Richards: or it's just my grandma's amazing genes or what it
TJ Richards: was, but I had two gay uncles, I had
TJ Richards: queer cousins. So it
TJ Richards: wasn't something od or new or something that nobody knew
TJ Richards: about. But I was terrified. And
TJ Richards: I was living in England. I just transferred. I was in the US Air Force
TJ Richards: before I got kicked out. I was transferred over here.
TJ Richards: And it was right after September 11. So
TJ Richards: we were in the Middle east and I thought, right,
TJ Richards: I had a girlfriend at the time. I'm telling the story in terrible
TJ Richards: order. I had a girlfriend at the time called Tony, who's now my wife of
TJ Richards: over 20 years. But I was
TJ Richards: suddenly faced with the situation of
TJ Richards: if I were to die or be
TJ Richards: injured or if anything were to happen to me in what is a war
TJ Richards: zone, right? And I'm 1920 years
TJ Richards: old, they would tell my
TJ Richards: parents, but my parents didn't know Tony existed, so
TJ Richards: Tony would never know. And that was
TJ Richards: terrifying, right? And absolutely heartbreaking. So I thought, right, I've got to
TJ Richards: fix this. So I had friends on the base that
TJ Richards: knew, so in case something would happen, they would be able to tell Tony. And
TJ Richards: they were really supportive, right? They would come pick up letters so that
TJ Richards: Tony could send them across to me for free through the military network. It
TJ Richards: was absolutely lovely. And now I am showing my
TJ Richards: age. Jo, I found one book that was
TJ Richards: about coming out to your parents
TJ Richards: later in life, right? Like, not as a child. And it was
TJ Richards: Ellen DeGeneres's mom who had written a book
TJ Richards: about her life, and Ellen. And Ellen coming out
TJ Richards: to her and how she had grown and come to terms with
TJ Richards: it. And Amazon was just a bookstore
TJ Richards: back then, right? This is how old I am. And I
TJ Richards: ordered that book and I had it sent to my dad and my
TJ Richards: stepmom with. No, I chickened out. There was no
TJ Richards: note. Just this book turned up at their door. And then I gave
TJ Richards: it about a week. And I used my phone call to call
TJ Richards: home and my stepmom was like, oh, I got your
TJ Richards: book. And I was like, oh, cool. So
TJ Richards: what do you think? And she said, tJ, we've always known.
TJ Richards: And I was like, gosh, thank you.
TJ Richards: Love it. The support is there, clearly, but I
TJ Richards: kind of wish you'd told me because I've spent years
TJ Richards: terrified of this moment and you've just been waiting for me to
TJ Richards: find the strength to do it. So I have
TJ Richards: always teased her that you could have told me a few years ago and saved
TJ Richards: me some angst. But yeah, the Ellen DeGeneres book.
TJ Richards: Well, Ellen's mom's book, whose name I can't remember at the moment. Great
TJ Richards: resource. Probably a little out of date now. There's probably newer ones,
TJ Richards: but it helped me. That's wonderful.
Joanne Lockwood: No, I think it's a great story. I actually asked my mum, did
Joanne Lockwood: she have any idea or any inkling? And she said she had no idea. No
Joanne Lockwood: inkling. And majority of my friends, if
Joanne Lockwood: you had to do a vote, who's the least likely person in the friend group
Joanne Lockwood: to be trans? I would probably been top of the list. I was not a
Joanne Lockwood: candidate. I was not a candidate, which is probably why it shocks so many people.
Joanne Lockwood: I think my friends found it quite hard, because this is always this belief.
Joanne Lockwood: You've been living a lie, or every experience we've had has always
Joanne Lockwood: been this has been there. I never said something,
Joanne Lockwood: so it was quite hard at times. But
Joanne Lockwood: I've deliberately walked away from my male only groups and
Joanne Lockwood: friends because I don't feel that sense of
Joanne Lockwood: belonging. I'm not included. It's that belongingness.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not my space, it's not my place anymore. And I was
Joanne Lockwood: always fighting with it, but I was one of these dues.
Joanne Lockwood: It's like a small group, it's a 1520, my old
Joanne Lockwood: male friends in black tie, and I was in a dress,
Joanne Lockwood: completely welcomed. And we're driving home afterwards, I offered to give
Joanne Lockwood: a couple of them a lift back to the Isle of White Ferry, and one
Joanne Lockwood: of them said, thanks for your story, Jo,
Joanne Lockwood: as you probably realise, my daughter
Joanne Lockwood: is trans. And I said, well, I knew your
Joanne Lockwood: daughter when we used to go camping together as your son. And he
Joanne Lockwood: said, yeah, it's remarkable knowing you, knowing what you've been through, knowing the story, having
Joanne Lockwood: the conversation with you over those years. When my daughter came out as trans,
Joanne Lockwood: I was just so ready for it. It was actually so empowering.
Joanne Lockwood: And then the person in the other seat said, oh, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: my eldest has come out as nonbinary, and we're having this conversation in this
Joanne Lockwood: car. This is random car of my best friend, sort of thing.
Joanne Lockwood: And there's three quarters of us, that's four in the car. Three quarters
Joanne Lockwood: of us have a trans story or a nonbinary story.
Joanne Lockwood: And I suddenly thought, actually, I've got more in common with these people than I
Joanne Lockwood: ever imagined. I imagined that I was an outlier here, rather than
Joanne Lockwood: them all having a family or a close connection experience. And I
Joanne Lockwood: felt immediately connected to them in a way I never imagined. So I probably
Joanne Lockwood: prejudged them as being not understanding. But,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, the stories I hear all the time, I'm sure you do as well,
Joanne Lockwood: and you meet. Yeah,
TJ Richards: maybe prejudged. I mean, that's for you to decide. But I think what you
TJ Richards: probably did is jump started that journey
TJ Richards: for them, so that when that situation occurred
TJ Richards: later, they were able to link it back to, well, I've got
TJ Richards: a friend that's gone through something similar, I can empathise now,
TJ Richards: and I think the empathy is such an
TJ Richards: important part of just life, right, of being a good
TJ Richards: human, but also being a good ally is being able to
TJ Richards: see things from other people's perspective, to actually
TJ Richards: feel, put yourself in their situation and feel what they might
TJ Richards: be feeling. And then sit with that, because that can be quite
TJ Richards: uncomfortable sometimes, and then work out,
TJ Richards: what does that feel like for them and how can you support them? And sometimes
TJ Richards: that support is just being their friend, right? Like just being an
TJ Richards: open ear that people can talk to. And then suddenly
TJ Richards: life comes along and your kid tells you, hey,
TJ Richards: we need to have a conversation and you're prepared.
TJ Richards: Whereas when we were going through that, maybe
TJ Richards: that wasn't the case for our parents. So I feel like we're
TJ Richards: able to. In the positions that we've managed to attain in
TJ Richards: life, we're able to sort of push that needle just a little bit
TJ Richards: further for other people so that the doorways are more
TJ Richards: open for the next generation. And I think if
TJ Richards: that's all I accomplish in life, that's enough.
TJ Richards: Right. I want to say about
Joanne Lockwood: back when you were in the military
Joanne Lockwood: and your partner girlfriend at the time,
Joanne Lockwood: Tony, and that need to ensure that they had a
Joanne Lockwood: level of protection, whatever that may be, or respect or
Joanne Lockwood: whatever, about the relationship, I can resonate with that because
Joanne Lockwood: our parents are getting to the elderly stage. So my mum's in
Joanne Lockwood: mid 80s, my dad's 90 ish, Marie's dad is 90
Joanne Lockwood: ish, and her mum passed away February this
Joanne Lockwood: year. So we've been through this care home,
Joanne Lockwood: we've been through this hospitalisation, we've been through power of attorneys,
Joanne Lockwood: we've been through wills and probate and all this kind of stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: What it made us realise is that if we want to have
Joanne Lockwood: agency in our later life, we have to do something about it
Joanne Lockwood: now. Otherwise whoever's left
Joanne Lockwood: may not have their wishes respected. Marie's faced with
Joanne Lockwood: the thing of me not being around and her having to defend my
Joanne Lockwood: memory in a certain way against death,
Joanne Lockwood: registration, all these kind of things, burials or whatever it may be, or
Joanne Lockwood: dementia in a care home, and making sure that my identity
Joanne Lockwood: and my being is respected in that situation. So we have to
Joanne Lockwood: make decisions now around protecting our
Joanne Lockwood: status and my status, if you like,
Joanne Lockwood: beyond what I really felt I needed to do for me. I no
Joanne Lockwood: longer do it for me. I'm doing it because why do I need a gender
Joanne Lockwood: recognition certificate? I don't need it, but what I need to do is
Joanne Lockwood: make sure that I have it for the future. And there are other things.
Joanne Lockwood: Making sure that it doesn't become a question
Joanne Lockwood: that Marie has to answer in 20 years time when
Joanne Lockwood: I can't. And that's the frustration of not being
Joanne Lockwood: the default, isn't it? It's not being the maturity. It's having to double
Joanne Lockwood: think everything absolutely. And
TJ Richards: that having to think about your loved
TJ Richards: ones, how can you support them when
TJ Richards: they have to make these difficult decisions? And maybe you're not there or you're
TJ Richards: not compass mentors. I know Tony and I regularly talk
TJ Richards: about our life in the care home, right? Like, we're constantly talking
TJ Richards: about how we're going to have an amazing life in a care home eventually,
TJ Richards: with sponge baths and the works. But the reality for
TJ Richards: so many people is that they go into
TJ Richards: a care home, and I've heard so many stories of
TJ Richards: them having to go back into the closet because the situation that
TJ Richards: they suddenly find themselves in, against their will, in some
TJ Richards: respects, is that they don't have
TJ Richards: that support network anymore. They're not supported, they don't feel safe being
TJ Richards: out. Or maybe their partner isn't acknowledged when they come to
TJ Richards: visit. And in fact, I was talking about this with a
TJ Richards: friend, Matt Riley, years ago, who's since gone on to start, I
TJ Richards: think, tonic housing, which is an lgbt retirement
TJ Richards: community, and I'm all over that. Can you
TJ Richards: imagine that would be like, the utopia? If I have to
TJ Richards: go into a home, to go into one surrounded by my community,
TJ Richards: supported, to still be myself and not have to worry about
TJ Richards: that. My identity being acknowledged,
TJ Richards: respected, understood, on top of everything else that I'm dealing
TJ Richards: with is the utopia. I have no idea how I got off on that
TJ Richards: topic. Jo, I told you're going to need a leash for me. No, it's
Joanne Lockwood: fine. I'm visualising the sponge bath
Joanne Lockwood: and hoping it's the right kind of sponge bath and not purgatory.
TJ Richards: I'll leave it up to your imagination things. You get bored when you get old,
TJ Richards: I reckon. I think you're probably right. You're probably
Joanne Lockwood: right. You mentioned
Joanne Lockwood: you're chair of the
Joanne Lockwood: LGBTQ plus network at your organisation.
Joanne Lockwood: What challenges do you find working with
Joanne Lockwood: organisations at that sort of level to bring sort of
Joanne Lockwood: queer representation into their policy, marketing, product, whatever
Joanne Lockwood: it may? So I'm the
TJ Richards: network co chair for Santander's lgbt network
TJ Richards: embrace and I've done it for, I think, about seven years
TJ Richards: now. My other co chair, Darren Carrison, has been there
TJ Richards: since the beginning and we make a great team and I
TJ Richards: think the challenge has been
TJ Richards: understanding and being able to
TJ Richards: honour that line between
TJ Richards: my personal view of total revolution, take over the
TJ Richards: world, and also understanding that people move at a pace,
TJ Richards: right. I can't make people run before they can
TJ Richards: walk. I can't dominate the world and make it the
TJ Richards: place I want it to be without taking people along on the journey, right?
TJ Richards: Not that I'm ever going to be a dictator. This isn't
TJ Richards: that. But it's that understanding that
TJ Richards: change takes time. Much like we were talking about that journey to
TJ Richards: allyship, right? It takes time for people to
TJ Richards: understand and move. And sometimes
TJ Richards: I have to respect that there's processes involved
TJ Richards: to update a policy and it can't be done at a snap of a finger,
TJ Richards: even though I'm like, but it's just three words.
TJ Richards: It's that having to temper my
TJ Richards: enthusiasm to bring it to a level where people
TJ Richards: can actually follow along and we can make that progress and make it in a
TJ Richards: sustainable way. Right. If you push the needle too far, it will start to
TJ Richards: pull back. So you have to do it slow and steady, even pace. And
TJ Richards: for me, I think it's just the impatience. I want a
TJ Richards: world where everyone is allowed to be themselves and
TJ Richards: not allowed expected, celebrated to
TJ Richards: be themselves. And that's just the expectation.
TJ Richards: There's not coming out, there's not anything special. We are just people who
TJ Richards: are living our lives and that's all it ever needs to
TJ Richards: be. We're not there yet. There's so much
TJ Richards: work left to do and it feels like every day,
TJ Richards: watching the news, as much as I may try to avoid
TJ Richards: it, that there's more and more piling on the plate of the work
TJ Richards: that we need to do. And some of it is work that I'm sure we've
TJ Richards: already done. And it's coming back onto our plate because it feels
TJ Richards: like maybe there's a backward slide,
TJ Richards: but it's the impatience for
TJ Richards: me. I just want everything fixed now, Jo. I want it all
TJ Richards: now. Like Viola and Willy Wonka and the
TJ Richards: chocolate factory. I want it now.
Joanne Lockwood: Violet Beauregarde bought it. Violet, Viola is
TJ Richards: my Venus fly up. Sorry, is she
Joanne Lockwood: the chewing gum person? She's the chewing gum one, isn't she? That has the blueberry
Joanne Lockwood: chewing gum and swells right up like a balloon. Yeah, that's the one
Joanne Lockwood: with a rich daddy. That's the one, yeah, they all have rich daddies. And if
Joanne Lockwood: I remember rightly so, I'm a consumer, I'm a
Joanne Lockwood: customer, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: trans. And I accept that
Joanne Lockwood: organisations will get it wrong.
Joanne Lockwood: But the frustration thing is I work with a lot of large
Joanne Lockwood: organisations like yourselves, like other banks, like other comms companies. And I
Joanne Lockwood: know that most of the companies out there, the household names, have staff
Joanne Lockwood: networks, have ergs, have inclusion policies, have trans
Joanne Lockwood: nonbinary, queer inclusion ethos.
Joanne Lockwood: I know that the intent and the corporate mission is wholly
Joanne Lockwood: behind getting it right, but it's that frustration isn't it? You
Joanne Lockwood: walk in, you make a phone call and everything goes wrong and
Joanne Lockwood: it's like, what? Come on. Yes, I've got
Joanne Lockwood: a deep voice. I'm sorry, I've got a deep voice, but what else can you
Joanne Lockwood: ask me? And I think I had a challenge with
Joanne Lockwood: Santander a few years ago, which you helped me out with. I also had
Joanne Lockwood: a challenge with Metrobank. And this is not to name a shame or to call
Joanne Lockwood: you out, but what it highlighted was, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: privileged because I know you. I
Joanne Lockwood: reached out on LinkedIn or sent you an email with Metrobank.
Joanne Lockwood: I delivered a trans awareness session to them three months
Joanne Lockwood: previously, so I knew the head of people. So I was straight onto
Joanne Lockwood: LinkedIn to the head of people and the people who organised that, the staff network.
Joanne Lockwood: So I was able to make my problem disappear by
Joanne Lockwood: going round the roadblock. The front door
Joanne Lockwood: says, no, you can't. You must go to branch
Joanne Lockwood: with id before we can validate you and take you
Joanne Lockwood: forward. And I said, these aren't the droids you're looking for.
Joanne Lockwood: And you wouldn't ask anybody else for this information. Why have you
Joanne Lockwood: chosen to pick on me? Well, we don't believe who you are. Okay,
Joanne Lockwood: because my voice. Is that what you're saying? You don't believe me because of my
Joanne Lockwood: voice. So you are discriminating against me under the
Joanne Lockwood: Equality act. But the risk profile kicks in. The risk management profile
Joanne Lockwood: kicks in, and that people are risk averse, aren't they? And that's what's going on
Joanne Lockwood: here. Absolutely. And
TJ Richards: the rampant amount of consumer risk happening
TJ Richards: in the market at the moment is gobsmackingly
TJ Richards: large. So I understand the need
TJ Richards: to protect customers to make sure that they're not
TJ Richards: being scammed and things aren't being stolen from
TJ Richards: them. But there is that balance with
TJ Richards: also treating your customers like
TJ Richards: people and understanding that we don't
TJ Richards: all sound the same. And
TJ Richards: I've had exactly the same situation not too long
TJ Richards: ago with another company who I won't name because I can't remember if it was
TJ Richards: exactly them or not, but where essentially
TJ Richards: they just didn't believe that I was who I said I was because
TJ Richards: my voice didn't match their perception of who I should sound like. And that was
TJ Richards: so frustrating, because how can
TJ Richards: I prove it over the phone? Right? I am me. I have my security questions.
TJ Richards: Ask me. I'll tell you about my mom. I'll tell you my life story. What
TJ Richards: do you want? And I think that is
TJ Richards: the challenge, because there's that balance between
TJ Richards: risk and safety and how do we
TJ Richards: confirm that in a world that is increasingly
TJ Richards: more and more filled with people who are lying and
TJ Richards: telling, that difference is hard, and I get it, but
TJ Richards: I think we can do better. I always think there's more we can do
TJ Richards: and the processes sometimes
TJ Richards: leave a little bit to be desired. Right, but what I
TJ Richards: love about Santander, and even about your story
TJ Richards: there, is that even if you're raising it with
TJ Richards: a person to say, right, this is my problem, we need to fix it.
TJ Richards: It's my job as a network
TJ Richards: lead at Santander and I imagine the head of people at Metro bank
TJ Richards: did exactly the same. Right, how did we get here and
TJ Richards: how can we fix this so that it doesn't happen to other people? And
TJ Richards: it's that sort of deeper analysis of
TJ Richards: understanding what's gone wrong and how can we make it better? That
TJ Richards: constantly happens in the background and there are so many processes
TJ Richards: in every organisation that I don't know that that work will ever be
TJ Richards: done, but the fact that they're always willing to
TJ Richards: listen to me when I say, hey, why don't we talk about this? Because this
TJ Richards: answer feels wrong. So how did we get here? Their heart's in
TJ Richards: the right place and I can work with that. And I found that
TJ Richards: even when we were working through your situation, we were able to
TJ Richards: resolve it because people were open to going, oh, you're right, this isn't the right
TJ Richards: outcome for our customers and we need to make things better.
TJ Richards: So it's always work to be done,
TJ Richards: never. The.
Joanne Lockwood: For those who are listening, you've probably heard the term calling it out. There's
Joanne Lockwood: also another term called calling it in, which is you don't just shout,
Joanne Lockwood: you educate. And I think going through the experience with
Joanne Lockwood: yourselves and also the Metro bank and many other organisations I've worked through
Joanne Lockwood: that. My outcome isn't around compensation
Joanne Lockwood: or wanting someone to prostrate themselves off the floor and
Joanne Lockwood: apologise. My outcome is Always education.
Joanne Lockwood: Education, and someone should learn from this and the process will be better
Joanne Lockwood: next time. And I'm prepared to give you my time and effort and
Joanne Lockwood: my experience on this to help educate. And I think
Joanne Lockwood: that's why I try not to get angry, I try to do it through the
Joanne Lockwood: education route, which is not always easy.
Joanne Lockwood: Again, if you're listening to this and you've heard the expression microaggression, putting the
Joanne Lockwood: burden back onto the person that's been discriminated against or
Joanne Lockwood: burdened is not always a great idea. But if not me,
Joanne Lockwood: then who's going to say something? So sometimes you just have to sort
Joanne Lockwood: of say, okay, I found a gap, let me fix it. Let me get
Joanne Lockwood: in here and help solve it. But it's
Joanne Lockwood: burdensome, though, isn't it? It can be. And
TJ Richards: what's that phrase? Have I got the spoons for it today? And there are some
TJ Richards: days I don't have the spoons. And then there are other days
TJ Richards: where I'm like, right, I feel like this is my job, I need to
TJ Richards: make this better so that it doesn't affect other people
TJ Richards: and whether that's. We had a situation a while ago now where
TJ Richards: we were going into a supermarket and
TJ Richards: we were on our way. We were on a road trip, right, and we just
TJ Richards: needed to grab some bits, snacks for the road, because road snacks are
TJ Richards: important and use the loo. And Tony came
TJ Richards: in with me. We went into the women's loo because there were only women's and
TJ Richards: men's options. Fine. And we were stopped by a
TJ Richards: cleaner who was mopping the floors right
TJ Richards: outside and said to my wife, you can't come in there. You can't go in
TJ Richards: there. And that moment of
TJ Richards: being like, do I have the spoons? To
TJ Richards: argue, what are we going to do? And you have that
TJ Richards: split second to make that decision, how are you going to deal with it? And
TJ Richards: sometimes you don't have the spoons. And I think that's okay. In this case, we
TJ Richards: did have the spoons. And, like you, I knew the right
TJ Richards: people to talk to in that organisation to fix that situation. And it
TJ Richards: ended up with the company involved going through some
TJ Richards: training around diversity and inclusion and actually just letting
TJ Richards: people use the loo like it's okay. So, yeah,
TJ Richards: I think helping people, knowing people helps, but the role
TJ Richards: of the people is that it's their job to fix it then,
TJ Richards: or to put things in place so that that's less likely to happen
TJ Richards: again. Nobody's perfect, but we need to make it
TJ Richards: better. As you're talking now, I'm sniggering, if you've
Joanne Lockwood: listened to this, you can't see me sniggering, because it brought back a story that
Joanne Lockwood: I experienced pre Covid
Joanne Lockwood: three or four years ago as I'm a member of an ex armed
Joanne Lockwood: forces club in the UK in London. So I'm ex
Joanne Lockwood: RAF and I was going in and as
Joanne Lockwood: I was going through the front door, someone started shouting out, excuse me,
Joanne Lockwood: sir. Excuse me, sir. And I was just ignoring it,
Joanne Lockwood: thinking I'm not going to play their game. So I just ignored it. And eventually
Joanne Lockwood: they said, excuse me, without the sir on the end. And I turned around and
Joanne Lockwood: said, what? And he said, whatever it was
Joanne Lockwood: I needed to do, I said, it's not sir, it's madam. By
Joanne Lockwood: the way, not happy with you shouting sir at me,
Joanne Lockwood: but yeah, whatever. So we dealt with the problem. So I went to the reception
Joanne Lockwood: and said, look, can I just speak to the person
Joanne Lockwood: that handles this kind of complaint, please, whoever it may be? And they came down
Joanne Lockwood: and see me and they said. And I said, look, I'm not trying to make
Joanne Lockwood: a big deal of this. All I want to do is just try and create
Joanne Lockwood: some education here that they just dropped the sir off the end of
Joanne Lockwood: the. Off the end of the sentence, say, excuse me, and just talked
Joanne Lockwood: about degenerating conversations with things. And he said, well, we do all this quality stuff
Joanne Lockwood: and we have our regular EDI training. And I
Joanne Lockwood: said, well, clearly it's not working, so I'd
Joanne Lockwood: like you to sort of take it more seriously and have a conversation. And we're
Joanne Lockwood: just wrapping up the conversation and this person turned around to me
Joanne Lockwood: and said, thank you, sir, that was really useful. And I went
Joanne Lockwood: and we paused at that point there. I looked at him, he
Joanne Lockwood: looked at me and I said, so you've just proved the point.
Joanne Lockwood: Clearly your EDI training is a tick box and doesn't work because
Joanne Lockwood: it's just misgender me in this conversation, having had a conversation about
Joanne Lockwood: misgendering. And he went, write it a sheet. He went, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: really sorry, I'll write up a complaint against myself as well. I said, but no,
Joanne Lockwood: it's not about that. It's about meaningful change. But,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I recognise that my voice id,
Joanne Lockwood: my voice print is in the male range and it's really hard
Joanne Lockwood: for humans to sort of override some of these primary senses and
Joanne Lockwood: responses. We're so ingrained. So I get it.
Joanne Lockwood: But it just highlighted that people believe they're doing the
Joanne Lockwood: EDI tick box every year training. It's not
Joanne Lockwood: meaningful, it's not embedding it, it's not diving into
Joanne Lockwood: lived experience. And that's what I think we need to uplift in society
Joanne Lockwood: is better lived experience training and experiential
Joanne Lockwood: stuff. And I think that links back
TJ Richards: to what you were saying about your friends.
TJ Richards: They may have been on an EDI course at work, they may
TJ Richards: know tangentially about EDI and
TJ Richards: those sort of theories, but I think
TJ Richards: for humans in general, until you
TJ Richards: live through that, until you have some lived experience of
TJ Richards: interacting with people who aren't the same as you,
TJ Richards: that's when it drives it home for you. And that's why I think it's so
TJ Richards: important for going out
TJ Richards: and meeting other people, talking to other people, whether that's
TJ Richards: university, college, those are great examples of when people, a lot of people
TJ Richards: first sort of mix outside of their little bubble for the first time.
TJ Richards: And that's why I think education can be such a
TJ Richards: powerful agency for change.
TJ Richards: Right, and for inclusion, because suddenly people are interacting with someone who has a
TJ Richards: different life experience than them, and maybe they use different
TJ Richards: pronouns, or maybe they're like me. I said
TJ Richards: earlier, I am a woman. Like a tomato is a fruit.
TJ Richards: Yes, but also kind of.
TJ Richards: So I understand that
TJ Richards: people have that journey to go on, and I think the key to that
TJ Richards: is talking and interacting with
TJ Richards: other people in a genuine way and having the spoons at the
TJ Richards: time to have those conversations, like you said,
TJ Richards: and make that change in those tiny incremental
TJ Richards: moments, they build up to suddenly your mate going,
TJ Richards: oh, yeah, my daughter came out as Trans, and I was perfectly okay with it
TJ Richards: because I dealt. I'd gone through this before and I knew what
TJ Richards: it meant. Those incremental changes build up.
TJ Richards: A snowflake is a blizzard. I love that. I'm a great
Joanne Lockwood: believer. A snowflake on its own will hit the ground and melt. A snowflake with
Joanne Lockwood: a billion friends is an avalanche. It creates change and
Joanne Lockwood: landscapes move. So, yeah, I'm a great believer. Call me a
Joanne Lockwood: snowflake all you like, but I stand with others. I'm all right.
TJ Richards: Absolutely. I was out with a friend
Joanne Lockwood: the other day and we were talking about the Rishi Sunak
Joanne Lockwood: baiting he did. A man's a man, a woman's a woman.
Joanne Lockwood: And I listened to it and I said, you're
Joanne Lockwood: right, I am a woman. You're right. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't disagree with what you've just said. A woman's a woman. I am a woman.
Joanne Lockwood: So I found it very difficult to get angry with that statement, because I
Joanne Lockwood: agree with it. I'm a woman. I pay my taxes.
Joanne Lockwood: As far as HMRC are concerned, as far as my doctor's concerned, as far as
Joanne Lockwood: my dentist, my Vat registration, my company's house,
Joanne Lockwood: everything I have treats me as a woman, identify me as a
Joanne Lockwood: woman. Passport, driver licence, everything. So legally, as far as I'm
Joanne Lockwood: concerned, and as far as the government concerned, I'm a woman. So a woman's a
Joanne Lockwood: woman. I agree. We don't need to get into
Joanne Lockwood: adjectives and splitting hairs about what
Joanne Lockwood: constitutes. You say your definition of
Joanne Lockwood: womanhood is different to other people's definitions of womanhood,
Joanne Lockwood: or nonbinaryhood or however you assign yourself and describe yourself,
Joanne Lockwood: so we all have our different nuances. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think I'm a realist that a lot of gender is a social
Joanne Lockwood: construct anyway. It's based time and
Joanne Lockwood: space, experience of a man, a woman, a
Joanne Lockwood: nonbinary person, queer person today is different to 200 years ago.
Joanne Lockwood: It's different in the UK than it is in South America, for example.
Joanne Lockwood: The role responsibilities and the expectations of gender are different.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, gender expression,
Joanne Lockwood: gender conformity is a social construct. Gender identity for
Joanne Lockwood: me is innate. It's the same. My
Joanne Lockwood: identity is innate as my sexuality and
Joanne Lockwood: other things about me. But how I perform, how I meet the
Joanne Lockwood: expectations of society, is a complete construct. That's what people get
Joanne Lockwood: hung up about. That's what the debate is. We're debating the construct which is
Joanne Lockwood: made up shit, isn't it? We made this shit up. We could change this shit,
Joanne Lockwood: but it's. Great because if we made it up, it means we can make up
TJ Richards: something new. Right? There's an opportunity in that. There's a
TJ Richards: hopefulness in that for me, because even though
TJ Richards: I rail at any constructs being put on
TJ Richards: me, I also recognise that
TJ Richards: because it's made up, we can just make up something new. And that sounds so
TJ Richards: much easier, right? We can just make up something new and it's not that easy.
TJ Richards: I get it. My impatience coming out again. But
TJ Richards: there's a hopefulness there that we could. That we could
TJ Richards: incrementally make those steps and change it.
TJ Richards: Because society isn't set in stone. It's
TJ Richards: constantly changing, constantly evolving. We're not in
TJ Richards: the UK, we're not the same society now that we were when
TJ Richards: I moved here in 2001, just in that instance,
TJ Richards: things have changed pre Covid versus post Covid or
TJ Richards: during COVID All of these things. Constant change,
TJ Richards: constant evolution. And that means constant opportunity
TJ Richards: for betterment. Do you think some people
Joanne Lockwood: just. And I don't want to be stereotypical or judgmental here,
Joanne Lockwood: even if it does sound like I am, but I find that some
Joanne Lockwood: people want to be righteous and police
Joanne Lockwood: people back into their lane or into their box or into
Joanne Lockwood: their definition of right and wrong. And they're intolerant, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like, of their rule set being breached, whereas I
Joanne Lockwood: think you listen to what you're saying. I certainly. I
Joanne Lockwood: think once you've breached those rule sets, you realise
Joanne Lockwood: that they're social contracts, they're made up, and then you can be
Joanne Lockwood: more adaptable and more flexible about other rules. You go,
Joanne Lockwood: actually, that's just made up. We can unmake it. We can
Joanne Lockwood: remake it, we can paint it a different colour and it's still fine. But some
Joanne Lockwood: people never challenge themselves to escape their rule set
Joanne Lockwood: of programming. Yeah, I do agree. And I
TJ Richards: think linking that back to your safari analogy
TJ Richards: earlier, it is scary
TJ Richards: coming out of a safe, enclosed space where maybe it
TJ Richards: is bars, but you know where they're at. You know what the expectations are and
TJ Richards: you know what to do to thrive in that world. You might not like it,
TJ Richards: but you know what the expectations are. You step out of that comfort zone,
TJ Richards: you start questioning things and challenging things. There's
TJ Richards: a fear in that and I see that a
TJ Richards: lot when I experience some of that.
TJ Richards: Hatred is not the right word, that's too strong, I think. But some
TJ Richards: of that pushback that I see in different
TJ Richards: areas of society, around people just being who they are and being
TJ Richards: allowed to just live, I think some of that
TJ Richards: pushback is a fear based response of,
TJ Richards: if you can question things, where does it end? And
TJ Richards: that is such an intriguing question, because where does
TJ Richards: it end? For me, that's a question of
TJ Richards: endless inevitability, possibility,
TJ Richards: solutions, making things better.
TJ Richards: But until you get to that
TJ Richards: mindset, it's scary. And I
TJ Richards: try to have empathy even for that, because
TJ Richards: there must be some fear there about living
TJ Richards: outside of where you've always been, right? Stepping outside of
TJ Richards: your comfort zone is uncomfortable. And for some people that
TJ Richards: allowing us the option
TJ Richards: or acknowledging that we have the option to do
TJ Richards: that, questions their decisions to
TJ Richards: not do that. And I think there is fear there. And that's where
TJ Richards: I try to let my empathy come in. Sometimes
TJ Richards: it's harder than others, I'm not going to lie, but
TJ Richards: I think people generally think of themselves as good
TJ Richards: people and operate from that viewpoint.
TJ Richards: And so I try to give them a little bit of love and understanding,
TJ Richards: even on the hard days, such hard days.
Joanne Lockwood: Sometimes I just think if anyone's listening to
Joanne Lockwood: this, who would identify maybe as cis
Joanne Lockwood: straight? Have you ever actually sat there and tried to challenge
Joanne Lockwood: or ask the question who am I? Or why am I? And something I
Joanne Lockwood: realised going back when I was going through my
Joanne Lockwood: questioning, trying to figure myself out, was I was trying
Joanne Lockwood: to solve the problem, I was trying to understand why
Joanne Lockwood: or how, or what being trans meant and how
Joanne Lockwood: it affected me. And I was saying to myself, well, I'm an
Joanne Lockwood: intelligent human being, I must be able to square this circle, I must
Joanne Lockwood: be able to round this off, I must be able to fix it, I must
Joanne Lockwood: be able to go right, I've solved the problem, I'm now okay, I don't need
Joanne Lockwood: to do this. I rationalised it out. Did you go
Joanne Lockwood: through this sort of, kind of, there must be a solution here somewhere sort
Joanne Lockwood: of phase? Yeah, I did. And it was
TJ Richards: funny. I mean funny, it's funny now. It was traumatic at the
TJ Richards: time. This whole podcast, Jo,
TJ Richards: is about me revealing my age to people.
TJ Richards: I very vividly recall in the mid ninety
TJ Richards: s, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years
TJ Richards: old. And there was a show on tv
TJ Richards: called Zena Warrior Princess, right? And
TJ Richards: it was a show that was a lesbian awakening for a lot of women
TJ Richards: my age. And I remember I
TJ Richards: watched it religiously every week. And
TJ Richards: I identified with the taking the lead, being
TJ Richards: assertive, finding a problem, fixing a problem, making
TJ Richards: things better, getting a happy ending. And
TJ Richards: there was a lot of queer subtext in that show.
TJ Richards: But I remember that it inspired me, but it also terrified
TJ Richards: me. And that being terrified was the part that I was like, I need
TJ Richards: to fix it. And my solution at the time,
TJ Richards: I had read a book, I don't remember which book. I'm
TJ Richards: sure somebody will write in and tell us that
TJ Richards: basically one of the premises that was made was fake it until you
TJ Richards: make it, whatever you pretend to be for long enough, you will become.
TJ Richards: And in that sort of context, it was a warning,
TJ Richards: if you pretend to be the bad guy for long enough, you'll turn into the
TJ Richards: bad guy. I think was the point of the story. But I took it
TJ Richards: as if I pretend to be straight
TJ Richards: for long enough, I will be. And so
TJ Richards: I found the problem. I'd found a solution. And then my
TJ Richards: implementation of the solution was to lay in bed every night in my
TJ Richards: room, in the dark, close my eyes and
TJ Richards: chant, it's okay to be gay, but it's not for me.
TJ Richards: It's okay to be gay, but it's not for me. And I would repeat it
TJ Richards: out loud and in my head, in the dark, in my little bedroom,
TJ Richards: until I fell asleep, sometimes in tears. Part
TJ Richards: of me thinks, looking back,
TJ Richards: how sad that was, that I was
TJ Richards: imposing my own bars on myself because of fear. Part
TJ Richards: of me is also a little bit proud that even in my fear, I wasn't
TJ Richards: being homophobic. It's like, it's okay to be gay, it's just not for
TJ Richards: me. So I definitely tried to
TJ Richards: fix it. My solution was chanting. It was ineffective.
TJ Richards: I was definitely gay. That didn't
TJ Richards: change. Neither did my love for Zena. Still a huge fan.
TJ Richards: But yeah, it's that chanting, that
TJ Richards: trying to fix it, trying to lean really hard into other things
TJ Richards: to cover it up. I went to military
TJ Richards: boarding school. I went to a military university. I
TJ Richards: joined the military, all of these things to try and take my mind
TJ Richards: off of the fact that maybe I'm gay
TJ Richards: and how terrifying that concept was and
TJ Richards: then having those bars removed. When
TJ Richards: I was kicked out of the military, they eventually found out that I was
TJ Richards: gay. And at the time, that was illegal. So
TJ Richards: suddenly finding myself without those constraints and being able to explore
TJ Richards: was a blessing. In the end, I was able to find myself.
TJ Richards: And I love my life now. I'm happy. I'm thriving. What is
TJ Richards: the movie? 30, flirty and thriving? I'm definitely not 30,
TJ Richards: but I love my life now. And it was because those
TJ Richards: bars, I was able to escape those bars, whether
TJ Richards: on my own or because the bars were taken off of me, I was able
TJ Richards: to find a new place. And I think that was
TJ Richards: the point of it. Hopefully.
Joanne Lockwood: Hopefully it sounds by listening to you there that the
Joanne Lockwood: hardest coming out you've done in your life is coming out to
Joanne Lockwood: yourself. God, yes. Absolutely.
TJ Richards: And I don't know why I was talking about
TJ Richards: this in my therapy session recently. I love therapy,
TJ Richards: recommend it for everybody. But it was that
TJ Richards: my father's side of the family, and I was living with my dad at the
TJ Richards: time, so queer. So, you know, there were
TJ Richards: so many. There are so many queer and
TJ Richards: ally people in that side of the family. And I don't know if there's
TJ Richards: something in the water in Pascagoula, Mississippi, if maybe
TJ Richards: it's the swamp air, maybe it's just my grandma's great genes,
TJ Richards: I don't know. But the family is. We could have had our own
TJ Richards: pride parade in the early 90s, right? And
TJ Richards: so I should have
TJ Richards: known. I feel now I should have known that it
TJ Richards: was okay. But because it was me, it was that
TJ Richards: chant. And even looking back and analysing that chant, I came up
TJ Richards: with, it's okay to be gay, but it's not for me. Well, why not?
TJ Richards: Why not? What was the fear? And the fear was
TJ Richards: that it would close doors for,
TJ Richards: you know, at the time, I was adamant. I was be. I was going
TJ Richards: to go into the military. I was going to be a test pilot. I was
TJ Richards: going to transfer to NASA. I was going to join the astronaut programme, and I
TJ Richards: was going to go to Mars. These were the things that were
TJ Richards: happening, and none of that could happen if I was gay.
TJ Richards: Because it was illegal to be gay in the military. It was couldn't. We had
TJ Richards: don't ask, don't tell at the time, which essentially meant
TJ Richards: they wouldn't come out and ask you, TJ, are you
TJ Richards: gay? But if anyone found out I was gay,
TJ Richards: that counted as telling. So I essentially had to
TJ Richards: be in the closet or risk being outed and then
TJ Richards: kicked out, which was eventually what happened. Because it turns out I'm terrible being in
TJ Richards: the closet. Once I accepted who I was absolutely awful
TJ Richards: at it. Never been so happy to fail at something in my life
TJ Richards: in the end. But traumatic at the
TJ Richards: time. Absolutely traumatic. Because the thing that I was
TJ Richards: holding on to was what my future was going to be and how it was
TJ Richards: going to look. And that was being taken
TJ Richards: away because of an innate part of me, just because
TJ Richards: of who I was in love with and who I loved. And it
TJ Richards: didn't seem fair and it wasn't fair. It was
TJ Richards: Bs. It was no good. It
TJ Richards: forced me to question things and to answer things that I
TJ Richards: hadn't allowed myself to in the past. So in
TJ Richards: the know, it worked out. But God, it
TJ Richards: was a long road getting there. I think we need a queer
Joanne Lockwood: mission to Mars now. We need to start a campaign.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, because I think you'd look so cool on the martian
Joanne Lockwood: surface with your blue hair, red background,
Joanne Lockwood: you'd be rocking it. Absolutely. We
Joanne Lockwood: have some rainbow patches and we'll have a rainbow flag on
Joanne Lockwood: Mars.
TJ Richards: Listeners can't see it, but I have got a rainbow NASA pin
TJ Richards: on my desk. Even now, I still like to dream.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, I suppose the sadness of your story there
Joanne Lockwood: is balanced by the fact that had you joined with those
Joanne Lockwood: aspirations today, you would probably
Joanne Lockwood: succeed and not be afraid to do that. I mean, I know that
Joanne Lockwood: in the US you're one election away
Joanne Lockwood: from it, going back again into the problems and
Joanne Lockwood: what we see in Florida and the south and Texas
Joanne Lockwood: and other states that are kind of,
Joanne Lockwood: I guess, red states in american politics language.
Joanne Lockwood: There was some really worrying precedents being set
Joanne Lockwood: around legislation.
Joanne Lockwood: You said don't say gay. It's not just don't say gay, it's being
Joanne Lockwood: illegal. It's being actively outed and
Joanne Lockwood: ostracised around trans kids, all this kind of stuff. And we see that
Joanne Lockwood: leaking into the UK as well, don't we? We see a lot of this. We
Joanne Lockwood: do far right rhetoric and I mentioned Rishi
Joanne Lockwood: Sunat speech, but we see the chair of the Equality Human Rights Commission,
Joanne Lockwood: we see our home secretary, we see our health secretary, we see
Joanne Lockwood: the problematic guidance that's been put out around
Joanne Lockwood: supporting young trans people in schools and education.
Joanne Lockwood: Sometimes it feels like we're just under threat and under battle every day,
Joanne Lockwood: just existing, doesn't it? It does. And
TJ Richards: so many of our community are just
TJ Richards: exhausted right when
TJ Richards: the essence of our existence is
TJ Richards: debated and air quotes around debated
TJ Richards: because we're just existing. We're just people living our
TJ Richards: lives. What is the debate that is
TJ Richards: exhausting? And
TJ Richards: when you see progress, I think certainly
TJ Richards: I did, and maybe a lot of people as well, allowed myself to become
TJ Richards: extremely hopeful. Oh, we're just on the other side of the rainbow
TJ Richards: bridge, right? We're almost there. We've almost made it. And then you see
TJ Richards: that pendulum start to swing back, and it
TJ Richards: starts in other places, and then you see things start to leak over
TJ Richards: here, and it's exhausting, and
TJ Richards: it's terrifying, because at the end of the
TJ Richards: day, the only agenda
TJ Richards: that I'm pushing is to let
TJ Richards: me and my friends exist peacefully, right? We
TJ Richards: just want to live our lives. I want to be
TJ Richards: treated like a normal human being and allowed to
TJ Richards: seek my own happiness. That's all I want. I don't feel like that's
TJ Richards: asking for something revolutionary. But more
TJ Richards: and more, it feels like other people see
TJ Richards: that as treasonous, almost.
TJ Richards: And it's an interesting place to
TJ Richards: be in, in history. And I remain
TJ Richards: forever a Pollyanna. And I
TJ Richards: am convinced that there are enough good people in the world that
TJ Richards: are standing together and will
TJ Richards: staunch the flow of
TJ Richards: backwardsness that will help us to move forward,
TJ Richards: or at least stop the slide and then move forward.
TJ Richards: And I have to have that hope, because otherwise, what is there?
TJ Richards: I think it's going to be an interesting
TJ Richards: time, and I reckon in 100 years, they'll be studying this period in
TJ Richards: history, and I hope
TJ Richards: they're studying it from a place of happiness that we made the right
TJ Richards: choice and that we chose love
TJ Richards: and acceptance, and not that we
TJ Richards: chose to put more bars on people's closets
TJ Richards: and force them into smaller and smaller cages.
TJ Richards: I have that hope. Thank you, TJ. That was a really
Joanne Lockwood: powerful way to finish this episode. And if you're listening
Joanne Lockwood: today, drop a comment in, tell us what you think. I'd love to
Joanne Lockwood: hear your thoughts. That was a really powerful close by, TJ. So,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, share your thoughts as well, TJ, thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. That was truly amazing. It's been an
Joanne Lockwood: honour to spend an hour and a half or so just chatting with you and
Joanne Lockwood: getting to know you better. How could people get hold of
Joanne Lockwood: you, connect on LinkedIn, something like that? Would that work? Absolutely. You can
TJ Richards: find me on LinkedIn. TJ Richards. I think there's
TJ Richards: only one of me, certainly only one of me with blue hair. So if you
TJ Richards: just look for the blue streak down the middle of the fake mohawk,
TJ Richards: that'll be me. Fabulous. Fabulous.
Joanne Lockwood: And finally, just a thank you to you for listening in. I couldn't do this
Joanne Lockwood: without your support. Get to the end saying hi.
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Joanne Lockwood: I've got loads of other guests coming up. We're going to hit our hundredth episode
Joanne Lockwood: soon, and I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by them over the next few
Joanne Lockwood: weeks, months, or even hopefully, years. Of course, if you'd like to be a guest,
Joanne Lockwood: I'd love to have you on, so drop any feedback and suggestions to me.
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood at
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood.
Joanne Lockwood: It has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch
Joanne Lockwood: you next time. Bye.