WEBVTT 00:00:00.330 --> 00:00:04.046 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for 00:00:04.068 --> 00:00:07.726 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I 00:00:07.748 --> 00:00:11.326 have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a 00:00:11.348 --> 00:00:15.022 conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and 00:00:15.076 --> 00:00:18.350 generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 00:00:19.330 --> 00:00:21.966 To join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to 00:00:21.988 --> 00:00:25.906 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, 00:00:26.098 --> 00:00:29.654 that's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You 00:00:29.772 --> 00:00:33.526 can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify 00:00:33.548 --> 00:00:36.818 and the usual places. So plug 00:00:36.994 --> 00:00:40.794 in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get 00:00:40.832 --> 00:00:44.502 going. Today is episode 00:00:44.566 --> 00:00:48.394 94 with the title beyond the 00:00:48.432 --> 00:00:51.886 Closet, and I have the absolute honour and privilege to 00:00:51.908 --> 00:00:55.482 welcome TJ Richards. TJ 00:00:55.546 --> 00:00:58.974 described themselves as a programme manager and 00:00:59.012 --> 00:01:02.714 LGBTQ plus network chair at Santander 00:01:02.842 --> 00:01:06.210 and also chair of trustees at Q:Alliance. 00:01:06.790 --> 00:01:10.162 And when I asked TJ to describe their superpower, they said, 00:01:10.296 --> 00:01:13.906 is talking a superpower? Because they sure do love to do 00:01:13.928 --> 00:01:17.538 it. Hey, TJ, how are you? Welcome to the show. 00:01:17.704 --> 00:01:21.526 Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for allowing me 00:01:21.548 --> 00:01:25.266 to join you. I've been a huge fan of your show from the beginning 00:01:25.378 --> 00:01:28.698 and of know you and I have known each other for a couple of years, 00:01:28.864 --> 00:01:32.140 so really excited to be here. And 00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:35.786 when we talk about today's episode of beyond the 00:01:35.808 --> 00:01:39.420 Closet, I think that's such an amazing title because 00:01:41.070 --> 00:01:44.638 my journey, and I imagine a lot of other people's journey, is very similar, 00:01:44.724 --> 00:01:48.094 is that working out that you're in the closet in the first 00:01:48.132 --> 00:01:51.966 place and then that journey of figuring out how the hell you 00:01:51.988 --> 00:01:55.554 get out of the closet and what that looks like for you and how you 00:01:55.592 --> 00:01:59.186 live a life without those boundaries. And it's such an 00:01:59.208 --> 00:02:02.946 exciting topic. I'm really excited to be here today and talk to you about 00:02:02.968 --> 00:02:03.540 it. 00:02:06.550 --> 00:02:10.194 For most people, and I say most, the majority, we've had a census, 00:02:10.242 --> 00:02:14.006 we know that it's. Majority of people don't even realise there is 00:02:14.028 --> 00:02:17.866 a closet or something to escape, do they? They 00:02:17.888 --> 00:02:21.660 just wake up and they're always themselves. 00:02:22.030 --> 00:02:25.754 Yeah. And it's so amazing because it's not 00:02:25.792 --> 00:02:28.940 until you stop to ask yourself that question 00:02:29.790 --> 00:02:33.502 that you start to realise whether you are 00:02:33.556 --> 00:02:37.166 in a closet. And maybe closet is an outdated term, I don't 00:02:37.188 --> 00:02:40.240 know. Certainly the term I grew up with. But 00:02:40.930 --> 00:02:44.466 finding out, realising that actually you're operating within a set of 00:02:44.488 --> 00:02:48.146 boundaries that you've not necessarily chosen for yourself, 00:02:48.328 --> 00:02:52.046 and that could be your sexuality, that could be your gender 00:02:52.078 --> 00:02:55.874 identity, that could be just the social role that society has 00:02:55.912 --> 00:02:59.638 put on you based on your perception. To them 00:02:59.804 --> 00:03:03.570 all of those boundaries play into sort of how you operate 00:03:03.650 --> 00:03:07.206 in the world. And realising that actually I don't have 00:03:07.228 --> 00:03:11.046 to is quite liberating and revolutionary in 00:03:11.068 --> 00:03:14.474 a sense. And it's a journey I think many of us have gone on. And 00:03:14.512 --> 00:03:17.546 honestly, I wish the whole world would go on it, because it's a question we 00:03:17.568 --> 00:03:21.354 can all answer for ourselves. Whatever the answer is, who 00:03:21.392 --> 00:03:24.702 do I want to be in the world, and how do I be that 00:03:24.756 --> 00:03:28.174 person in a way that makes the world a better place? Like you 00:03:28.212 --> 00:03:32.014 said, that's the ultimate goal, to leave it a little bit 00:03:32.052 --> 00:03:35.602 better than we found it. Right? Yeah. 00:03:35.656 --> 00:03:39.230 Essentially, you question whether closet is an outdated term. I suppose 00:03:39.390 --> 00:03:42.386 when I was going through my self discovery and 00:03:42.408 --> 00:03:45.830 exploration, I kind of used the metaphor around 00:03:45.980 --> 00:03:49.830 the three phases. The first one was a cage, a zoo. 00:03:50.330 --> 00:03:53.782 You're trapped behind the bars, living by somebody 00:03:53.836 --> 00:03:57.646 else's rules, where you have no negotiation. You're trapped 00:03:57.698 --> 00:04:01.174 in that cage, basically existing under someone else's 00:04:01.222 --> 00:04:05.020 rules. And then the fire. Extreme I've talked about was 00:04:05.390 --> 00:04:08.774 the plains of Africa. Wild, roaming 00:04:08.822 --> 00:04:12.554 free. But then you're living in a world where you have got no 00:04:12.592 --> 00:04:16.110 safety, you've got no guarantee of support, no family 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:19.886 around you. You're at a waterhole, being risked by eating by a 00:04:19.908 --> 00:04:23.726 lion or an alligator or a crocodile jumping out at you. So I was always 00:04:23.748 --> 00:04:27.538 trying to find what I called my safari park, which is kind of 00:04:27.704 --> 00:04:31.506 this place you can exist where the boundaries were so great, you never hit 00:04:31.528 --> 00:04:35.202 the fences, you got fed, you got looked 00:04:35.256 --> 00:04:38.774 after, you got someone caring for you. If you were ill or sick, someone was 00:04:38.812 --> 00:04:42.246 there. But you don't feel trapped because the 00:04:42.268 --> 00:04:45.958 boundaries are so vast and bountiful. And then you 00:04:45.964 --> 00:04:49.734 can exist in that world outside of the cage, and 00:04:49.772 --> 00:04:53.178 not in the wild, in this safe zone. And that's what I was always trying 00:04:53.184 --> 00:04:56.010 to find. I called it trying to find my safari park 00:04:56.590 --> 00:04:57.610 existence. 00:05:00.210 --> 00:05:03.120 I've not thought about it in that way before, but I think you're right. 00:05:03.890 --> 00:05:07.550 There's a freedom to not having the bars around 00:05:07.620 --> 00:05:10.826 you, right? But there's 00:05:10.858 --> 00:05:14.414 risk to being completely on your own and 00:05:14.452 --> 00:05:17.600 exposed and unprotected as well. And 00:05:20.050 --> 00:05:23.886 that feeling, I think, of being completely on your own 00:05:23.988 --> 00:05:27.686 is unfortunately something that a lot of people in 00:05:27.708 --> 00:05:31.014 our community and outside of our community, but specifically for this 00:05:31.052 --> 00:05:34.646 topic, is something that a lot of us have gone through. I mean, 00:05:34.748 --> 00:05:38.522 I don't know about you, Jo, but when I came out to my 00:05:38.576 --> 00:05:41.850 family, it was a rocky road. And 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.494 for a good while, we didn't 00:05:45.542 --> 00:05:47.900 talk because there was 00:05:49.890 --> 00:05:53.310 disbelief, maybe, or a full 00:05:53.380 --> 00:05:57.054 hearted belief that I was doing something that 00:05:57.092 --> 00:06:00.894 was putting my very soul in jeopardy. And it was their duty to 00:06:00.932 --> 00:06:04.402 tell me this over and over and over and over 00:06:04.456 --> 00:06:08.178 again. And I tried real hard 00:06:08.344 --> 00:06:12.066 and it's so hard to understand from. To be 00:06:12.088 --> 00:06:15.614 empathetic. From their point of view, they fully believed 00:06:15.662 --> 00:06:19.250 that I was making a mistake, that it was a phase, 00:06:19.330 --> 00:06:22.774 that I was doing something wrong and I fully believed the 00:06:22.812 --> 00:06:26.486 opposite. But if we had just shouted at each 00:06:26.508 --> 00:06:30.186 other and then shut down, that period of not talking would have 00:06:30.208 --> 00:06:34.026 never finished and there would have never been any progress. But 00:06:34.208 --> 00:06:37.386 that journey to 00:06:37.408 --> 00:06:40.970 allyship, right, like that journey, I had years 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.926 to sit with the idea of, wow, I might 00:06:44.948 --> 00:06:48.638 be gay. And that was really, really hard. And it 00:06:48.644 --> 00:06:52.014 took me a long time to come to terms with it. And then I 00:06:52.052 --> 00:06:55.634 remember when I told my parents, in 00:06:55.672 --> 00:06:58.210 separate instances, because they were divorced, 00:06:59.510 --> 00:07:03.074 not being fully happy with the way that they responded, but 00:07:03.112 --> 00:07:06.386 also afterwards realising they had half a 00:07:06.408 --> 00:07:09.902 second to come to terms with that, whereas I had had years 00:07:10.056 --> 00:07:12.646 to think about it and come to terms with it and get used to the 00:07:12.668 --> 00:07:16.082 idea. And actually that allowed me to have a little bit of empathy 00:07:16.226 --> 00:07:19.994 for their perspective. I didn't agree with it, of course 00:07:20.032 --> 00:07:23.754 not, because I am me and I'm happy being me, but that 00:07:23.952 --> 00:07:27.706 space to grow, you have to give 00:07:27.728 --> 00:07:31.318 that space to think. And it's. 00:07:31.414 --> 00:07:33.998 I don't know where I was going with that. Jo, I told you, talking is 00:07:34.004 --> 00:07:37.786 a superpower. Staying on topic, not necessarily, but I think that it's 00:07:37.818 --> 00:07:41.662 that having that freedom to make that choice, but 00:07:41.716 --> 00:07:45.138 knowing that you've got a support network somewhere, family 00:07:45.224 --> 00:07:48.786 chosen family, community, whatever that is, I think 00:07:48.808 --> 00:07:51.906 that's so important. It also 00:07:52.008 --> 00:07:55.666 respects the boundaries of society. 00:07:55.778 --> 00:07:58.920 Social constructs. Not saying I want to be 00:07:59.530 --> 00:08:03.122 constricted by social constructs, but I respect 00:08:03.186 --> 00:08:07.014 there are constructs to follow. I will have a better experience in my 00:08:07.052 --> 00:08:10.790 life if I'm willing to play some games 00:08:10.950 --> 00:08:14.730 and compromise without impacting who I am. 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:18.538 I recognise that I have a responsibility to be a good citizen as well. 00:08:18.704 --> 00:08:22.446 And the world doesn't always revolve around me. I'd like it to, as we'd all 00:08:22.468 --> 00:08:25.886 would, but it doesn't revolve around me. I think what you're saying there about when 00:08:25.908 --> 00:08:29.530 you said you shared 00:08:29.610 --> 00:08:33.246 your sexuality, you shared your gender identity with people and 00:08:33.348 --> 00:08:35.934 they thought you were making the wrong decision. I mean, I had a similar challenge 00:08:35.982 --> 00:08:39.282 where I don't think people actually said I was making the wrong 00:08:39.336 --> 00:08:42.900 decision. It was more, what about them? 00:08:43.510 --> 00:08:47.046 So I've married, I've got two children. So my 00:08:47.068 --> 00:08:50.674 wife was concerned about how it would reflect 00:08:50.722 --> 00:08:54.546 on her, our marriage, her own sexuality, 00:08:54.738 --> 00:08:58.406 her own sense of identity and her aspirations and dreams of the 00:08:58.428 --> 00:09:01.820 future. So, quite rightly, she had a concern about her, 00:09:02.270 --> 00:09:06.074 and obviously, I thought it was all about me. I didn't realise it was 00:09:06.112 --> 00:09:09.674 actually about other people, that this transitioning malarkey. And my 00:09:09.712 --> 00:09:13.434 daughter, our daughter, she 00:09:13.472 --> 00:09:17.166 found it really, really difficult for many years, probably three or four years, and 00:09:17.188 --> 00:09:20.974 we didn't talk a lot in that period because she had to come 00:09:21.012 --> 00:09:24.190 out to her network, her friends, her colleagues, 00:09:24.530 --> 00:09:28.146 and she was now the daughter of a trans dad, if you 00:09:28.168 --> 00:09:31.634 like. So I didn't appreciate all these different dynamics at 00:09:31.672 --> 00:09:35.246 play. That wasn't about me, it was about how I impacted 00:09:35.278 --> 00:09:38.678 others. And, as you said, you have to have a level of empathy and 00:09:38.684 --> 00:09:42.418 compassion for what I've triggered, 00:09:42.594 --> 00:09:46.374 caused, and not my fault, it just is. But I've been the 00:09:46.412 --> 00:09:50.006 catalyst for all these changes. And then I found the challenge 00:09:50.038 --> 00:09:53.722 was being the pain giver, but also the pain 00:09:53.776 --> 00:09:57.340 fixer. I had to try and make it better or smooth it over, 00:09:58.030 --> 00:10:01.662 but I was the problem and that was probably the hardest thing 00:10:01.716 --> 00:10:05.518 I had to come to terms with. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely 00:10:05.604 --> 00:10:07.200 right, because it's that 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:12.026 understanding. Sorry, it's that understanding 00:10:12.058 --> 00:10:15.314 that the words that are coming out of your mouth, the 00:10:15.352 --> 00:10:18.978 decision that you've made to be honest about yourself 00:10:19.064 --> 00:10:22.174 and who you are and who you need to be in the world to thrive 00:10:22.222 --> 00:10:25.766 and be happy, that has effects on other 00:10:25.788 --> 00:10:28.840 people. It does. And I remember 00:10:29.530 --> 00:10:32.822 one conversation being told, 00:10:32.956 --> 00:10:36.774 well, what about my grandkids? I'm never going to have grandkids now because 00:10:36.812 --> 00:10:40.454 of this. And I thought, well, that's because I hate children. 00:10:40.572 --> 00:10:44.326 Not because I don't hate children, I love children. I'm 00:10:44.358 --> 00:10:47.500 definitely not. I'm child free by choice. But 00:10:48.190 --> 00:10:51.470 it was that they had expectations and 00:10:51.620 --> 00:10:54.240 plans for their life that involved me, because 00:10:55.570 --> 00:10:58.622 we're loved ones. And I was changing that 00:10:58.676 --> 00:11:02.486 dynamic and there were ripple effects 00:11:02.538 --> 00:11:06.194 of that that needed to be worked through, and we were 00:11:06.232 --> 00:11:09.700 eventually able to work through those together 00:11:10.150 --> 00:11:13.554 and arrive at a better place. But it was 00:11:13.592 --> 00:11:17.406 that acknowledgment that there's 00:11:17.438 --> 00:11:21.014 a journey that our loved ones have to go on to 00:11:21.052 --> 00:11:24.774 grow, and some of them are already there. Right. You see, I love 00:11:24.812 --> 00:11:28.662 seeing stories like I'm on TikTok all the time, of young people 00:11:28.716 --> 00:11:32.346 coming out to their parents and their parents being like, yeah, but I love you, 00:11:32.368 --> 00:11:34.700 so it doesn't matter. And 00:11:36.190 --> 00:11:39.562 it warms my heart, in a way. That also breaks it with 00:11:39.616 --> 00:11:43.054 happiness. Right? Like, amazing. And I love 00:11:43.252 --> 00:11:46.814 seeing the potential of where our society and where 00:11:46.852 --> 00:11:50.574 humanity can go when we just open ourselves up and say, I love 00:11:50.612 --> 00:11:53.958 you. That's all that matters. You're happy, I'm 00:11:53.994 --> 00:11:57.794 happy, I love you. Let's carry on and live our lives. And 00:11:57.832 --> 00:12:01.458 that's the world I want. And I think that's the world that as 00:12:01.544 --> 00:12:04.606 a sort of inclusion, belonging 00:12:04.798 --> 00:12:08.454 activists that we're all working for, right? We 00:12:08.492 --> 00:12:11.462 want that for ourselves and for future 00:12:11.516 --> 00:12:15.014 generations. It's got to get better. It's got 00:12:15.052 --> 00:12:17.640 to. I won't let it go anywhere else. 00:12:18.810 --> 00:12:22.474 It's funny what you're saying there, about watching TikToks, about people 00:12:22.512 --> 00:12:26.246 coming out to their parents and things. I came out to my mum 00:12:26.438 --> 00:12:30.218 and I think she was 76 at the time, and it was 00:12:30.224 --> 00:12:33.118 a coffee shop in the local town. We sat there having a coffee and I 00:12:33.124 --> 00:12:36.846 was beaten around the bush and started crying and then just blurted it 00:12:36.868 --> 00:12:39.120 out, sort of thing. And 00:12:40.770 --> 00:12:44.322 fair play to my mum, she handled it 00:12:44.456 --> 00:12:48.306 pretty well and she just listened and we talked. 00:12:48.488 --> 00:12:52.242 I'm not sure how much understanding or context she had around 00:12:52.296 --> 00:12:55.780 it, but she talked and we talked. And 00:12:57.110 --> 00:13:00.482 if you try and find resources on coming out to your parents, 00:13:00.626 --> 00:13:04.230 it's all got young people imagery and young family 00:13:04.300 --> 00:13:08.054 imagery on it. There's no manual on coming out to your 00:13:08.092 --> 00:13:11.686 80 year old family. So I've printed out all these 00:13:11.708 --> 00:13:15.546 brochures, all these downloads, all these pdfs, and brought them with me and left them 00:13:15.568 --> 00:13:18.234 in an envelope with a letter in there, because you know the way it is, 00:13:18.272 --> 00:13:22.122 you come out, you say something, and immediately the person's got more questions 00:13:22.176 --> 00:13:25.114 or they've misheard or something like that. So I made sure there was a letter 00:13:25.242 --> 00:13:28.526 tag everything I was going to say and all this supporting documentation. I said, look, 00:13:28.548 --> 00:13:32.382 here's an envelope. When you get home, you got to want to 00:13:32.436 --> 00:13:36.126 think about this and digest it. Here's everything you could possibly want. 00:13:36.308 --> 00:13:39.106 And we met again a couple of weeks later. She'd obviously read this cover to 00:13:39.128 --> 00:13:42.866 cover several times, and she was starting to get on message. She 00:13:42.888 --> 00:13:46.418 wasn't quite ready to embrace me as me, 00:13:46.584 --> 00:13:50.230 but she said, give me time and let's talk about this, 00:13:50.300 --> 00:13:54.006 let's evolve this. And I think it took about six months for her 00:13:54.028 --> 00:13:57.266 to finally, I suppose, to be brave 00:13:57.298 --> 00:14:00.946 enough to have me openly be with 00:14:00.988 --> 00:14:04.330 her. It took a couple of more years to tell my dad, 00:14:04.830 --> 00:14:08.026 but I did. Eventually, I wrote him a letter, because he's very hard of 00:14:08.048 --> 00:14:11.838 hearing, and so writing a letter was much easier to put it 00:14:11.844 --> 00:14:15.600 in context. And bless him. 00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:20.174 His reply was very supportive. However, it had 00:14:20.212 --> 00:14:23.918 a don't be hasty, we can fix you 00:14:24.004 --> 00:14:27.202 type undercut in it, which it was well 00:14:27.256 --> 00:14:30.866 meaning, it wasn't nasty, it wasn't malicious. It 00:14:30.888 --> 00:14:34.642 was just this belief that from his 00:14:34.696 --> 00:14:38.294 perspective and his lived experience, that queer people were 00:14:38.332 --> 00:14:42.166 broken. And that's how he saw it. But he 00:14:42.188 --> 00:14:45.958 wasn't disappointed in me. He wasn't rejecting me. He just wanted to 00:14:45.964 --> 00:14:49.206 be fixed. I didn't respond to that letter. I left it a 00:14:49.228 --> 00:14:52.858 year and wrote him another letter and just say, look, this is where I am. 00:14:52.944 --> 00:14:56.474 This is what I'm doing. This is the success I've had as 00:14:56.512 --> 00:15:00.314 me. Some examples of businesses I've worked for, things I've done 00:15:00.352 --> 00:15:04.006 and achieved, sort of. Say, you can be proud of me. I'm not 00:15:04.048 --> 00:15:07.738 broken. I don't need fixing. I've made a life and we're 00:15:07.754 --> 00:15:10.800 loving it. So, yeah, I think you just got to bear with people. And 00:15:11.330 --> 00:15:14.830 I could have easily fallen out. I could have easily reacted badly. 00:15:15.330 --> 00:15:19.090 But, yeah, I suppose the thing I've learned is around this talking, 00:15:19.160 --> 00:15:22.946 communicating compassion. And I suppose the biggest lesson is it's not all 00:15:22.968 --> 00:15:25.650 about me. That's the biggest thing I learned. 00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:30.246 Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's funny you saying you wrote a letter and 00:15:30.268 --> 00:15:33.654 had supporting documents. That's what I know of you, Jo. That's so, 00:15:33.692 --> 00:15:37.400 Jo. When I 00:15:38.010 --> 00:15:41.758 came out to my mother first, I said my parents 00:15:41.794 --> 00:15:45.402 were divorced, so I came out to my mother first. That was 00:15:45.536 --> 00:15:49.034 left a lot to be desired. And we didn't talk for a while after that, 00:15:49.072 --> 00:15:52.622 although we've moved on. But when I was so 00:15:52.676 --> 00:15:55.934 nervous and so scared of coming out to my dad and my 00:15:55.972 --> 00:15:59.646 stepmom, and I don't know why, because that side of the 00:15:59.668 --> 00:16:03.182 family is so queer. So 00:16:03.236 --> 00:16:07.070 queer. Like, I don't know if there's something in the water in Mississippi 00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:10.786 or it's just my grandma's amazing genes or what it 00:16:10.808 --> 00:16:14.610 was, but I had two gay uncles, I had 00:16:14.760 --> 00:16:18.166 queer cousins. So it 00:16:18.188 --> 00:16:21.590 wasn't something od or new or something that nobody knew 00:16:21.660 --> 00:16:25.366 about. But I was terrified. And 00:16:25.388 --> 00:16:29.014 I was living in England. I just transferred. I was in the US Air Force 00:16:29.142 --> 00:16:32.186 before I got kicked out. I was transferred over here. 00:16:32.368 --> 00:16:36.106 And it was right after September 11. So 00:16:36.128 --> 00:16:39.660 we were in the Middle east and I thought, right, 00:16:41.710 --> 00:16:45.434 I had a girlfriend at the time. I'm telling the story in terrible 00:16:45.482 --> 00:16:48.526 order. I had a girlfriend at the time called Tony, who's now my wife of 00:16:48.548 --> 00:16:52.160 over 20 years. But I was 00:16:52.790 --> 00:16:55.780 suddenly faced with the situation of 00:16:56.630 --> 00:17:00.194 if I were to die or be 00:17:00.232 --> 00:17:03.522 injured or if anything were to happen to me in what is a war 00:17:03.576 --> 00:17:07.014 zone, right? And I'm 1920 years 00:17:07.052 --> 00:17:10.134 old, they would tell my 00:17:10.172 --> 00:17:13.926 parents, but my parents didn't know Tony existed, so 00:17:13.948 --> 00:17:16.854 Tony would never know. And that was 00:17:17.052 --> 00:17:20.850 terrifying, right? And absolutely heartbreaking. So I thought, right, I've got to 00:17:20.860 --> 00:17:24.538 fix this. So I had friends on the base that 00:17:24.624 --> 00:17:28.058 knew, so in case something would happen, they would be able to tell Tony. And 00:17:28.064 --> 00:17:31.726 they were really supportive, right? They would come pick up letters so that 00:17:31.748 --> 00:17:35.486 Tony could send them across to me for free through the military network. It 00:17:35.508 --> 00:17:39.166 was absolutely lovely. And now I am showing my 00:17:39.188 --> 00:17:42.994 age. Jo, I found one book that was 00:17:43.032 --> 00:17:45.810 about coming out to your parents 00:17:46.950 --> 00:17:50.466 later in life, right? Like, not as a child. And it was 00:17:50.568 --> 00:17:54.002 Ellen DeGeneres's mom who had written a book 00:17:54.056 --> 00:17:57.814 about her life, and Ellen. And Ellen coming out 00:17:57.852 --> 00:18:01.286 to her and how she had grown and come to terms with 00:18:01.308 --> 00:18:04.786 it. And Amazon was just a bookstore 00:18:04.898 --> 00:18:08.326 back then, right? This is how old I am. And I 00:18:08.428 --> 00:18:11.446 ordered that book and I had it sent to my dad and my 00:18:11.468 --> 00:18:15.066 stepmom with. No, I chickened out. There was no 00:18:15.088 --> 00:18:18.746 note. Just this book turned up at their door. And then I gave 00:18:18.768 --> 00:18:22.222 it about a week. And I used my phone call to call 00:18:22.276 --> 00:18:25.646 home and my stepmom was like, oh, I got your 00:18:25.668 --> 00:18:28.320 book. And I was like, oh, cool. So 00:18:29.570 --> 00:18:33.410 what do you think? And she said, tJ, we've always known. 00:18:33.910 --> 00:18:37.490 And I was like, gosh, thank you. 00:18:37.560 --> 00:18:41.346 Love it. The support is there, clearly, but I 00:18:41.368 --> 00:18:45.154 kind of wish you'd told me because I've spent years 00:18:45.272 --> 00:18:48.534 terrified of this moment and you've just been waiting for me to 00:18:48.572 --> 00:18:52.374 find the strength to do it. So I have 00:18:52.412 --> 00:18:55.058 always teased her that you could have told me a few years ago and saved 00:18:55.074 --> 00:18:58.870 me some angst. But yeah, the Ellen DeGeneres book. 00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:02.522 Well, Ellen's mom's book, whose name I can't remember at the moment. Great 00:19:02.576 --> 00:19:06.010 resource. Probably a little out of date now. There's probably newer ones, 00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:09.814 but it helped me. That's wonderful. 00:19:09.862 --> 00:19:13.706 No, I think it's a great story. I actually asked my mum, did 00:19:13.728 --> 00:19:16.686 she have any idea or any inkling? And she said she had no idea. No 00:19:16.708 --> 00:19:20.558 inkling. And majority of my friends, if 00:19:20.564 --> 00:19:23.454 you had to do a vote, who's the least likely person in the friend group 00:19:23.492 --> 00:19:26.706 to be trans? I would probably been top of the list. I was not a 00:19:26.728 --> 00:19:30.420 candidate. I was not a candidate, which is probably why it shocks so many people. 00:19:33.190 --> 00:19:36.702 I think my friends found it quite hard, because this is always this belief. 00:19:36.766 --> 00:19:40.502 You've been living a lie, or every experience we've had has always 00:19:40.556 --> 00:19:43.990 been this has been there. I never said something, 00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:46.520 so it was quite hard at times. But 00:19:48.170 --> 00:19:51.526 I've deliberately walked away from my male only groups and 00:19:51.548 --> 00:19:55.178 friends because I don't feel that sense of 00:19:55.184 --> 00:19:58.966 belonging. I'm not included. It's that belongingness. 00:19:58.998 --> 00:20:02.686 It's not my space, it's not my place anymore. And I was 00:20:02.708 --> 00:20:06.410 always fighting with it, but I was one of these dues. 00:20:06.570 --> 00:20:10.174 It's like a small group, it's a 1520, my old 00:20:10.212 --> 00:20:13.390 male friends in black tie, and I was in a dress, 00:20:13.730 --> 00:20:17.474 completely welcomed. And we're driving home afterwards, I offered to give 00:20:17.512 --> 00:20:20.498 a couple of them a lift back to the Isle of White Ferry, and one 00:20:20.504 --> 00:20:24.302 of them said, thanks for your story, Jo, 00:20:24.366 --> 00:20:27.678 as you probably realise, my daughter 00:20:27.854 --> 00:20:31.302 is trans. And I said, well, I knew your 00:20:31.356 --> 00:20:35.206 daughter when we used to go camping together as your son. And he 00:20:35.228 --> 00:20:39.046 said, yeah, it's remarkable knowing you, knowing what you've been through, knowing the story, having 00:20:39.068 --> 00:20:42.700 the conversation with you over those years. When my daughter came out as trans, 00:20:43.230 --> 00:20:46.710 I was just so ready for it. It was actually so empowering. 00:20:46.870 --> 00:20:50.220 And then the person in the other seat said, oh, yeah, 00:20:50.910 --> 00:20:54.734 my eldest has come out as nonbinary, and we're having this conversation in this 00:20:54.772 --> 00:20:58.254 car. This is random car of my best friend, sort of thing. 00:20:58.372 --> 00:21:02.106 And there's three quarters of us, that's four in the car. Three quarters 00:21:02.138 --> 00:21:05.520 of us have a trans story or a nonbinary story. 00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:09.186 And I suddenly thought, actually, I've got more in common with these people than I 00:21:09.208 --> 00:21:12.882 ever imagined. I imagined that I was an outlier here, rather than 00:21:12.936 --> 00:21:16.786 them all having a family or a close connection experience. And I 00:21:16.808 --> 00:21:20.294 felt immediately connected to them in a way I never imagined. So I probably 00:21:20.332 --> 00:21:24.166 prejudged them as being not understanding. But, 00:21:24.188 --> 00:21:27.378 yeah, the stories I hear all the time, I'm sure you do as well, 00:21:27.484 --> 00:21:29.580 and you meet. Yeah, 00:21:32.030 --> 00:21:35.594 maybe prejudged. I mean, that's for you to decide. But I think what you 00:21:35.632 --> 00:21:39.254 probably did is jump started that journey 00:21:39.302 --> 00:21:42.666 for them, so that when that situation occurred 00:21:42.698 --> 00:21:46.446 later, they were able to link it back to, well, I've got 00:21:46.468 --> 00:21:50.302 a friend that's gone through something similar, I can empathise now, 00:21:50.436 --> 00:21:54.274 and I think the empathy is such an 00:21:54.312 --> 00:21:57.714 important part of just life, right, of being a good 00:21:57.752 --> 00:22:01.380 human, but also being a good ally is being able to 00:22:02.550 --> 00:22:05.982 see things from other people's perspective, to actually 00:22:06.136 --> 00:22:09.846 feel, put yourself in their situation and feel what they might 00:22:09.868 --> 00:22:13.606 be feeling. And then sit with that, because that can be quite 00:22:13.628 --> 00:22:16.600 uncomfortable sometimes, and then work out, 00:22:17.690 --> 00:22:21.130 what does that feel like for them and how can you support them? And sometimes 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.826 that support is just being their friend, right? Like just being an 00:22:24.848 --> 00:22:28.534 open ear that people can talk to. And then suddenly 00:22:28.582 --> 00:22:32.190 life comes along and your kid tells you, hey, 00:22:32.260 --> 00:22:35.770 we need to have a conversation and you're prepared. 00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:39.422 Whereas when we were going through that, maybe 00:22:39.476 --> 00:22:43.226 that wasn't the case for our parents. So I feel like we're 00:22:43.258 --> 00:22:46.914 able to. In the positions that we've managed to attain in 00:22:46.952 --> 00:22:50.562 life, we're able to sort of push that needle just a little bit 00:22:50.616 --> 00:22:54.274 further for other people so that the doorways are more 00:22:54.312 --> 00:22:58.134 open for the next generation. And I think if 00:22:58.172 --> 00:23:01.238 that's all I accomplish in life, that's enough. 00:23:01.404 --> 00:23:04.680 Right. I want to say about 00:23:05.450 --> 00:23:08.250 back when you were in the military 00:23:08.990 --> 00:23:12.074 and your partner girlfriend at the time, 00:23:12.112 --> 00:23:15.786 Tony, and that need to ensure that they had a 00:23:15.808 --> 00:23:19.402 level of protection, whatever that may be, or respect or 00:23:19.456 --> 00:23:23.120 whatever, about the relationship, I can resonate with that because 00:23:23.650 --> 00:23:27.406 our parents are getting to the elderly stage. So my mum's in 00:23:27.428 --> 00:23:31.262 mid 80s, my dad's 90 ish, Marie's dad is 90 00:23:31.316 --> 00:23:34.674 ish, and her mum passed away February this 00:23:34.712 --> 00:23:38.450 year. So we've been through this care home, 00:23:38.520 --> 00:23:42.254 we've been through this hospitalisation, we've been through power of attorneys, 00:23:42.302 --> 00:23:45.902 we've been through wills and probate and all this kind of stuff. 00:23:46.056 --> 00:23:49.382 What it made us realise is that if we want to have 00:23:49.436 --> 00:23:53.174 agency in our later life, we have to do something about it 00:23:53.212 --> 00:23:56.040 now. Otherwise whoever's left 00:23:56.970 --> 00:24:00.458 may not have their wishes respected. Marie's faced with 00:24:00.464 --> 00:24:04.314 the thing of me not being around and her having to defend my 00:24:04.352 --> 00:24:08.054 memory in a certain way against death, 00:24:08.102 --> 00:24:11.742 registration, all these kind of things, burials or whatever it may be, or 00:24:11.876 --> 00:24:15.674 dementia in a care home, and making sure that my identity 00:24:15.722 --> 00:24:19.566 and my being is respected in that situation. So we have to 00:24:19.588 --> 00:24:23.262 make decisions now around protecting our 00:24:23.316 --> 00:24:25.600 status and my status, if you like, 00:24:26.710 --> 00:24:30.546 beyond what I really felt I needed to do for me. I no 00:24:30.568 --> 00:24:34.126 longer do it for me. I'm doing it because why do I need a gender 00:24:34.158 --> 00:24:37.926