WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:04.014 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the 00:00:04.052 --> 00:00:07.726 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have 00:00:07.748 --> 00:00:11.534 interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around 00:00:11.572 --> 00:00:15.306 the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally 00:00:15.338 --> 00:00:17.870 making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 00:00:19.010 --> 00:00:21.774 Join me in the future, then. Please do drop me a line to 00:00:21.812 --> 00:00:25.954 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, 00:00:26.082 --> 00:00:29.910 that's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You catch 00:00:31.130 --> 00:00:34.934 up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual 00:00:34.972 --> 00:00:38.698 places. So plug in the advance, grab a decaf and 00:00:38.704 --> 00:00:40.860 let's get going. Today is 00:00:41.950 --> 00:00:45.146 episode 98 with the title striving 00:00:45.168 --> 00:00:48.906 for fairness, and I have 00:00:48.928 --> 00:00:52.438 the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Pamela Permalloo Bass. Pamela 00:00:52.454 --> 00:00:55.594 is the EDI coach and consultant and 00:00:55.632 --> 00:00:59.274 when I asked Pamela to describe her superbass, she said, 00:00:59.322 --> 00:01:03.154 the skill of intently listening with empathy. Hello, 00:01:03.192 --> 00:01:06.066 Pamela. Welcome to the show. 00:01:07.270 --> 00:01:10.926 Hi, Jo. Hi. Thank you so much for inviting me and it's 00:01:10.958 --> 00:01:14.338 an absolute privilege to be here this morning, 00:01:14.504 --> 00:01:17.298 particularly at the start of the year. This is one of my first meetings of 00:01:17.304 --> 00:01:20.760 the year, so it feels very exciting. So thank you very much. 00:01:21.210 --> 00:01:25.046 Yeah, as we were saying in the green room before we've gone live that we 00:01:25.068 --> 00:01:28.502 haven't spoken for two or three years, it's been absolutely 00:01:28.556 --> 00:01:32.298 fantastic to catch up and have a good natter before we record the 00:01:32.304 --> 00:01:36.074 podcast. Yeah, absolutely. I think we needed more than the 00:01:36.112 --> 00:01:39.450 designated 30 minutes to have a proper catch up. We've had a 00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:43.118 good. Too many years have gone by. Yeah, 00:01:43.204 --> 00:01:46.590 they have. Anyway, we've caught up now. So, Pavana, 00:01:47.170 --> 00:01:50.400 tell me about striving for fairness. Why is that important to. 00:01:52.530 --> 00:01:56.178 Mean? You've known me for a good couple of years now and 00:01:56.264 --> 00:01:59.858 I've spent most of my life and my 00:01:59.944 --> 00:02:03.026 working career working in the field of diversity and 00:02:03.048 --> 00:02:06.754 inclusion. We're using the word diversity, equity, 00:02:06.802 --> 00:02:09.986 inclusion more and more now in organisational 00:02:10.018 --> 00:02:13.686 spaces. But 2030 years ago, it 00:02:13.708 --> 00:02:17.410 wasn't language that was used. And I like the word 00:02:17.500 --> 00:02:21.126 fairness because I think it really brings 00:02:21.158 --> 00:02:24.950 out what I've 00:02:25.030 --> 00:02:28.842 always strived to do on a daily basis, both in my work 00:02:28.896 --> 00:02:32.638 and in my personal life. And 00:02:32.804 --> 00:02:36.190 I think over the years, it's been great that more and more 00:02:36.260 --> 00:02:39.834 people and professionals are on board in the DNI 00:02:39.882 --> 00:02:43.554 space. Yeah, fairness is. 00:02:43.752 --> 00:02:47.460 I find sometimes it's a tough word because 00:02:48.550 --> 00:02:52.066 people want fairness and they also want 00:02:52.088 --> 00:02:55.934 meritocracy, but they don't always balance 00:02:55.982 --> 00:02:59.686 the two out fairly oxymoron. I 00:02:59.708 --> 00:03:03.462 appreciate. People have their own perception of what fair 00:03:03.516 --> 00:03:06.920 means, don't they? Yeah. And I think 00:03:08.890 --> 00:03:12.438 it's quite a generic piece of language, fairness, because 00:03:12.524 --> 00:03:16.374 depending on your own experiences, whether 00:03:16.412 --> 00:03:20.158 it's cultural, societal, social, you'll have a 00:03:20.164 --> 00:03:23.520 different perspective of what fairness really means. But I think 00:03:24.770 --> 00:03:28.494 for me, when we're using fairness in the world we're in right 00:03:28.532 --> 00:03:32.110 now, in the UK, when we're looking at it from a UK perspective, 00:03:32.870 --> 00:03:35.890 I think we can link it to issues around 00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:39.266 socioeconomic status. We touched on 00:03:39.368 --> 00:03:43.106 privilege as a concept in the green room. And 00:03:43.128 --> 00:03:46.578 there's also aspects of fairness 00:03:46.674 --> 00:03:49.842 that really permeate in organisations, particularly 00:03:49.906 --> 00:03:53.634 organisations that are hierarchical. So I've 00:03:53.682 --> 00:03:56.614 spent about 15 years working in the 00:03:56.652 --> 00:04:00.394 NHS and more recently in substantive roles as a 00:04:00.432 --> 00:04:04.070 DNI director in the NHS with several 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:07.734 community based organisations. So the hierarchy 00:04:07.862 --> 00:04:10.960 within the NHS and how that plays out 00:04:11.330 --> 00:04:14.350 absolutely will have 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:18.320 different experiences for different people 00:04:19.090 --> 00:04:20.750 in those different roles. 00:04:22.370 --> 00:04:25.966 Yeah. I use the freedom principles. 00:04:26.078 --> 00:04:29.902 For those of you who aren't aware, the freedom principles. Freedom stands for fairness, respect, 00:04:30.046 --> 00:04:33.086 equity or equality, dignity and autonomy. 00:04:33.198 --> 00:04:36.390 So I'm a great believer that fairness 00:04:36.970 --> 00:04:40.786 is utmost, because when we're dealing 00:04:40.818 --> 00:04:44.566 with people, you have to believe in the process, you have to have an 00:04:44.588 --> 00:04:48.262 element of trust. So I need to know that I can trust 00:04:48.316 --> 00:04:52.026 you to treat me fairly, because if I haven't got that trust in 00:04:52.048 --> 00:04:55.786 you, no matter what you say next, I will never believe you or 00:04:55.888 --> 00:04:59.722 I won't have that psychological safety. I won't feel I can bring 00:04:59.776 --> 00:05:03.406 my whole self to work, whatever you mean by that. So fairness is very 00:05:03.428 --> 00:05:07.278 fundamental. I agree with you. Sometimes 00:05:07.444 --> 00:05:11.120 we end up battling each other's concept of fairness, don't we? 00:05:11.730 --> 00:05:15.380 And I think you touched on trust. That too is 00:05:15.750 --> 00:05:19.218 so hugely important in relationships and 00:05:19.304 --> 00:05:21.010 within organisations. 00:05:25.130 --> 00:05:28.854 Most of you will know around issues around 00:05:28.892 --> 00:05:32.646 discrimination that organisations affect. And the NHS is 00:05:32.668 --> 00:05:35.430 no different to other organisations. 00:05:36.330 --> 00:05:40.042 When we're thinking about actually who does speak up, 00:05:40.096 --> 00:05:43.098 who is listened to, how are things 00:05:43.264 --> 00:05:46.890 resolved and managed, 00:05:47.390 --> 00:05:51.210 having that trust in, whether it's your line manager 00:05:51.290 --> 00:05:54.574 or whether it's the executive director or your 00:05:54.612 --> 00:05:58.430 CEO, that's really important to know that 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:01.918 you are going to be listened to and you're going to be treated fairly, you're 00:06:01.924 --> 00:06:05.746 not going to be treated differently, you're not going to be treated differently because of 00:06:05.768 --> 00:06:09.474 your role or what you're raising or anything to do 00:06:09.512 --> 00:06:12.660 with a particular characteristic or your experience. 00:06:13.270 --> 00:06:16.854 So I think it's all hand in hand, isn't it? All of these 00:06:16.892 --> 00:06:20.454 different. These key values that 00:06:20.492 --> 00:06:21.080 we. 00:06:24.090 --> 00:06:27.880 I mean, working in organisations such as the NHS, they're huge 00:06:29.130 --> 00:06:32.794 monoliths sometimes and made up of lots of 00:06:32.832 --> 00:06:36.362 disparate departments and different priorities, different 00:06:36.416 --> 00:06:40.206 care needs, different overheads. It must be really difficult to try 00:06:40.228 --> 00:06:43.662 and create change in a way that 00:06:43.716 --> 00:06:47.566 is meaningful because so many 00:06:47.588 --> 00:06:50.880 people have so many different views of what inclusion means. 00:06:51.410 --> 00:06:55.122 I was doing some work with, I think it was Morgan Bay, that area 00:06:55.176 --> 00:06:58.206 there, and they were doing a huge project on sticky 00:06:58.238 --> 00:07:01.586 floor where they recognised that a 00:07:01.608 --> 00:07:05.220 section of the demographic, of their employee base 00:07:05.690 --> 00:07:09.394 were never promoted, they were never getting past entry 00:07:09.442 --> 00:07:13.046 level positions, and the sticky floor was 00:07:13.068 --> 00:07:16.200 holding people back. And you could see quite clearly that 00:07:16.730 --> 00:07:19.850 people who are white escaped 00:07:20.270 --> 00:07:23.690 that lower tier, whereas people who are people of colour, 00:07:23.840 --> 00:07:26.982 low economic, socioeconomic status, even though they're perfectly 00:07:27.046 --> 00:07:30.854 qualified, able to devolve, for whatever reason, they didn't progress 00:07:30.902 --> 00:07:34.542 from the organisation in the same way. So it's about how do we create 00:07:34.596 --> 00:07:38.206 equity in the system to ensure we're amplifying people who 00:07:38.228 --> 00:07:41.840 are stuck or not seen or 00:07:42.470 --> 00:07:46.260 not viewed as capable for whatever reason. 00:07:47.350 --> 00:07:51.042 Yeah. I've been working 00:07:51.096 --> 00:07:54.642 in organisations for so long now and I remember when we first 00:07:54.696 --> 00:07:58.306 started looking at issues like that, your example of sticky 00:07:58.338 --> 00:08:01.478 floor issues, there was a lot of emphasis on 00:08:01.564 --> 00:08:03.880 individuals upskilling themselves, 00:08:05.450 --> 00:08:09.110 improving their cvs, getting better at interviews, 00:08:09.270 --> 00:08:13.082 et cetera, et cetera. And over time it 00:08:13.136 --> 00:08:16.458 became more and more clear that it was to do with 00:08:16.544 --> 00:08:19.922 systemic structures within organisations. 00:08:20.086 --> 00:08:23.566 And that is still the place where I still sit, sort of 00:08:23.588 --> 00:08:26.730 professionally, in my views 00:08:26.810 --> 00:08:29.934 of fairness and where it should sit, 00:08:30.052 --> 00:08:33.650 absolutely. Individuals play a part, 00:08:33.800 --> 00:08:36.930 but they are not key in dismantling 00:08:37.270 --> 00:08:40.834 unfairness within organisations. It has to be an 00:08:40.872 --> 00:08:44.210 organisational, structural decision 00:08:44.810 --> 00:08:47.990 to actively do things differently. 00:08:48.730 --> 00:08:52.406 So the work that I was involved in, in the NHS, when we 00:08:52.428 --> 00:08:55.560 looked at specific data sets, so, for example, 00:08:56.170 --> 00:08:59.526 we use a data tool called the Workforce Race 00:08:59.558 --> 00:09:02.874 Equality standard, and there's another data set called the 00:09:02.992 --> 00:09:06.730 Workforce Disability standard. And those two standards, 00:09:07.390 --> 00:09:10.814 historically, with regards to data recruitment and 00:09:10.852 --> 00:09:14.590 retention and promotion, they 00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:18.094 have always been the data set across pretty much all 00:09:18.132 --> 00:09:21.230 NHS organisations where there is huge 00:09:21.300 --> 00:09:24.820 disproportionality when we're comparing it to 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:30.946 white british employees, and even if you break it down 00:09:30.968 --> 00:09:34.650 to white british male employees or white british 00:09:34.830 --> 00:09:38.386 female employees, there's a huge disproportionality. So it's 00:09:38.418 --> 00:09:42.102 a good piece of data set to really 00:09:42.156 --> 00:09:45.366 evidence how unfairness plays out in 00:09:45.388 --> 00:09:49.150 organisations. Yeah. When I was listening 00:09:49.170 --> 00:09:52.810 to the stats that I was a party to the presentation, 00:09:53.470 --> 00:09:57.114 I left the room with more questions and answers. I wanted to 00:09:57.152 --> 00:09:59.658 speak to people who were in those 00:09:59.824 --> 00:10:03.290 demographics where they weren't progressing and say, 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.194 what do you think the problem is? Because I was asking the people who do 00:10:07.232 --> 00:10:10.894 resident support? I said, well, what are the people who are getting stuck field? 00:10:11.092 --> 00:10:14.658 Well, we don't know, we just got the data. I said, well, surely we want 00:10:14.664 --> 00:10:18.402 to get into those examples and say, look, 00:10:18.536 --> 00:10:22.274 so you're in this role. Is there a reason why you 00:10:22.312 --> 00:10:25.854 perceive you haven't progressed? Is it a limiting 00:10:25.902 --> 00:10:29.598 belief impostor syndrome? Is it a lack of drive? 00:10:29.704 --> 00:10:33.014 Or is it just purely that they come to work, do a job, they're happy 00:10:33.052 --> 00:10:36.822 with what they've got, they don't have ambition. So we're trying to create 00:10:36.876 --> 00:10:40.586 systems and fixing systems where we haven't necessarily engaged with the people who 00:10:40.608 --> 00:10:44.438 are affected to ask them why they haven't progressed. 00:10:44.454 --> 00:10:47.754 As you said in the past, we were 00:10:47.952 --> 00:10:51.498 pushing the problem back to them and saying, you need to progress yourself, you need 00:10:51.504 --> 00:10:55.098 to work harder, you seek qualifications. And they obviously weren't. 00:10:55.274 --> 00:10:58.986 So is it a community thing, is it a limiting belief 00:10:59.018 --> 00:11:02.734 thing? Is it just a societal expectation thing? Or is there 00:11:02.772 --> 00:11:06.260 other genuine reasons why people are being pushed down and held back? 00:11:07.270 --> 00:11:11.106 I think it's a complicated answer and I 00:11:11.128 --> 00:11:14.910 think there are absolutely key themes that will 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.674 just think about NHS organisations specifically. There are key themes 00:11:18.722 --> 00:11:22.546 within NHS organisations as a whole, but then there'll 00:11:22.578 --> 00:11:26.406 be different reasons and specific 00:11:26.588 --> 00:11:30.054 cultural differences within different NHS 00:11:30.102 --> 00:11:32.300 organisations, whether it's to do with 00:11:32.990 --> 00:11:36.714 geography, the services that they have, 00:11:36.832 --> 00:11:40.570 the size of organisations. There's a lot of complex 00:11:40.650 --> 00:11:43.760 structural organisations out there as 00:11:46.770 --> 00:11:50.366 well. Even people who work in the NHS don't necessarily understand the 00:11:50.388 --> 00:11:54.230 architecture. But for everyday people, it's 00:11:54.250 --> 00:11:57.922 not something that we really consider. You just think of the NHS as a place 00:11:57.976 --> 00:12:01.810 we go to be treated, to be healed, 00:12:02.150 --> 00:12:05.954 cared for. It's a huge beast and it's incredibly 00:12:06.002 --> 00:12:09.826 complicated. So I think all of those different aspects 00:12:09.858 --> 00:12:13.366 of it gives different 00:12:13.468 --> 00:12:17.238 reasons why unfairness plays out. And 00:12:17.244 --> 00:12:20.700 I think you're absolutely right, Jo, that the more you 00:12:21.390 --> 00:12:24.954 become curious and learn about it, 00:12:25.152 --> 00:12:28.474 the more you think actually, hold on, I don't get this. This is just so 00:12:28.512 --> 00:12:32.222 much. There's so much that I want to know here, there's so much to 00:12:32.276 --> 00:12:36.110 unpick, there's far more questions. 00:12:36.180 --> 00:12:39.918 And I have spent 15 years asking those questions. And the 00:12:39.924 --> 00:12:43.722 work that I'm doing now as a consultant, I'm working with NHS 00:12:43.786 --> 00:12:47.554 organisations, going into very sort of specific 00:12:47.672 --> 00:12:51.346 pieces of work with them, which is quite different to the 00:12:51.368 --> 00:12:54.370 type of work I was doing in my substantive role. 00:12:56.150 --> 00:12:59.822 People always say that data tells a story, and I think I'm always frustrated, 00:12:59.966 --> 00:13:03.750 but we never actually hear the story. We hear the headlines, we hear 00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:07.462 the opening chapter, but we never actually dive down. I think that 00:13:07.516 --> 00:13:11.258 was the frustration I felt and I think you're echoing the 00:13:11.264 --> 00:13:14.666 same thing, is that we've got lots of data, we know lots of 00:13:14.848 --> 00:13:18.406 startings of the story, but we don't actually have the real answers. 00:13:18.438 --> 00:13:22.062 And that's the challenge, I think, in most EDI work 00:13:22.196 --> 00:13:26.046 is trying to uncover the story and what are the inequities, what are the 00:13:26.068 --> 00:13:29.710 challenges? And yes, a lot of it is 00:13:29.780 --> 00:13:33.070 systemic and based on historical 00:13:33.750 --> 00:13:37.426 privilege and power structures. But how do we 00:13:37.448 --> 00:13:41.138 break out that cycle is the challenge we all face in this sort 00:13:41.144 --> 00:13:44.820 of EDI sector, if you like. 00:13:46.730 --> 00:13:50.418 One of the things, and you'll probably be in agreement 00:13:50.514 --> 00:13:53.542 that the more we look at our 00:13:53.596 --> 00:13:57.254 society, again, we're looking at talking about 00:13:57.292 --> 00:14:00.902 UK specific societies, our society, 00:14:00.966 --> 00:14:04.794 right now, and look at inequity and how that plays out in our 00:14:04.832 --> 00:14:07.862 society, it absolutely will resemble 00:14:07.926 --> 00:14:11.502 organisations. So you can't detract from what is 00:14:11.556 --> 00:14:14.240 happening out there right now. 00:14:15.170 --> 00:14:18.798 And I think that's hugely important to constantly remember 00:14:18.884 --> 00:14:22.362 that. Yeah, we just look at what's going on 00:14:22.516 --> 00:14:24.980 in the political sphere at the moment where 00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:29.010 the language being used around 00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:32.210 refugees entering our shores, 00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:36.534 fleeing from terror, fleeing for their lives 00:14:36.572 --> 00:14:40.310 in many cases, how the dehumanising language 00:14:40.650 --> 00:14:44.278 used to describe them, and then the government is 00:14:44.364 --> 00:14:48.086 looking to turn the boat around and ship them to 00:14:48.108 --> 00:14:51.958 Rwanda. And I don't want to be guilty 00:14:51.974 --> 00:14:54.938 of having a bias against Rwanda. I don't know the country, I don't know the 00:14:54.944 --> 00:14:58.502 people. I think there's a kind of a political 00:14:58.646 --> 00:15:02.438 demonization of Rwanda as a country, saying it's third world, it can't 00:15:02.454 --> 00:15:05.998 be any good, we're dumping our rubbish somewhere. I 00:15:06.004 --> 00:15:09.566 think that could be disrespectful of a country. So I don't want to get into 00:15:09.588 --> 00:15:13.166 the debate whether Miranda. It's just the language the government's 00:15:13.198 --> 00:15:16.500 using to sort of devalue these people 00:15:16.950 --> 00:15:20.514 and seeing them as not 00:15:20.552 --> 00:15:22.100 worthy of our support 00:15:24.310 --> 00:15:27.926 wing mentality, isn't it? Yeah, no, it absolutely is. And 00:15:28.108 --> 00:15:31.574 it feels like it's an opportunity to 00:15:31.612 --> 00:15:35.334 sidetrack the conversation, because when we think about actually 00:15:35.452 --> 00:15:39.142 how much money has been spent on the Rwanda deal and the cost 00:15:39.196 --> 00:15:43.018 of that so far and actually how many people have gone to Rwanda, I 00:15:43.024 --> 00:15:46.266 think the latest figure is there's been more home secretaries that have gone to 00:15:46.288 --> 00:15:48.890 Miranda than actual refugees. 00:15:49.710 --> 00:15:53.306 So if society 00:15:53.418 --> 00:15:57.034 and the people that were interested in the political 00:15:57.082 --> 00:16:00.782 debate around this were interested in 00:16:00.836 --> 00:16:04.382 the cost of this particular exercise, 00:16:04.526 --> 00:16:07.986 and if that money was to go into, I don't 00:16:08.008 --> 00:16:11.426 know, housing, into services like the 00:16:11.448 --> 00:16:15.254 NHS, or into know key 00:16:15.292 --> 00:16:18.680 services policing. Actually, 00:16:20.170 --> 00:16:23.670 to me, it feels like, firstly, it's a 00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:26.918 complete waste of money, but it also is 00:16:27.084 --> 00:16:30.838 sidetracking from all the other underfunded 00:16:31.014 --> 00:16:34.220 resourcing that's going into the public sector, which 00:16:35.470 --> 00:16:38.922 is so much needed, really, in 00:16:38.976 --> 00:16:41.520 particular, some very key areas in our country. 00:16:43.730 --> 00:16:47.294 It must have a psychological impact on 00:16:47.332 --> 00:16:50.794 people where they're hearing you said, quite rightly, 00:16:50.922 --> 00:16:54.506 what's going on in society is the 00:16:54.548 --> 00:16:58.318 macro, and that impacts the micro, if you like, of the organisation or what's 00:16:58.334 --> 00:17:01.966 going on inside organisations and people's psychology and mental 00:17:01.998 --> 00:17:05.666 health. You're hearing all of this dehumanising language, this 00:17:05.688 --> 00:17:08.886 demonising language, these stereotypes, these biases, the 00:17:08.908 --> 00:17:12.742 xenophobic type remarks that stem from Brexit. We've got 00:17:12.876 --> 00:17:16.406 a population who seem to be leaning, and certainly a 00:17:16.428 --> 00:17:19.020 mainstream media, who lean towards 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:24.474 stealing jobs from the british, whoever they may 00:17:24.512 --> 00:17:28.362 be, some sort of ethnic sort of 00:17:28.416 --> 00:17:32.266 superiority around white people being denied opportunity. We 00:17:32.288 --> 00:17:35.230 talk here, we're talking about fairness and equity. 00:17:36.210 --> 00:17:39.994 Is the everyday white person feeling 00:17:40.042 --> 00:17:43.866 marginalised and that's why they're fighting 00:17:43.898 --> 00:17:46.740 back, is that kind of thing. What's going on? 00:17:47.590 --> 00:17:51.058 So, again, there's been a lot of work around 00:17:51.224 --> 00:17:54.722 white working class boys, specifically in 00:17:54.776 --> 00:17:57.400 urban areas, and I think that's been going on 00:17:58.170 --> 00:18:01.782 definitely in all of my time in the NHS. Whether 00:18:01.836 --> 00:18:05.158 that's really sort of played out in policy change, 00:18:05.324 --> 00:18:08.634 I'm not sure, because my experience is not in education. 00:18:08.752 --> 00:18:11.180 So I would like to believe 00:18:12.110 --> 00:18:15.830 that there is work in identified 00:18:15.910 --> 00:18:19.738 areas in my sphere of career. So in the 00:18:19.744 --> 00:18:23.246 NHS, it's definitely been an area, hasn't been a focus, 00:18:23.348 --> 00:18:26.766 which I think absolutely should. I think when the 00:18:26.788 --> 00:18:30.586 Equality act came on board, socioeconomic 00:18:30.618 --> 00:18:34.318 was going to be a protected characteristic, but it got thrown out at the last. 00:18:34.484 --> 00:18:37.890 I think it was literally a couple of months before the act came into 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.810 play. And I think if that was part of the work around 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.666 diversity and inclusion and baked 00:18:45.698 --> 00:18:49.350 in, into the sort of process, we would have absolutely looked 00:18:49.420 --> 00:18:53.094 at white working class boys. And I say 00:18:53.132 --> 00:18:56.310 boys. It's actually a specific group that's been identified 00:18:57.870 --> 00:19:01.338 up to 18 and then post 25. So 00:19:01.504 --> 00:19:03.660 there's quite a lot of research around that 00:19:05.070 --> 00:19:08.218 and looking at that and how that plays out into 00:19:08.304 --> 00:19:12.080 organisations, whether it's around people 00:19:13.490 --> 00:19:17.258 finding it difficult, finding jobs or are in work, and they're 00:19:17.274 --> 00:19:20.670 having the same issues as you've described in 00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:24.494 Mez's side around sticky know, we look at ethnicity 00:19:24.542 --> 00:19:27.874 when we tend to look at ethnicity and disability, when we look at 00:19:27.992 --> 00:19:31.486 promotions and again, absolutely missed 00:19:31.518 --> 00:19:34.660 opportunity to not look at white working class 00:19:35.130 --> 00:19:38.950 groups and their journey around career progressions 00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:43.846 in organisations. I 00:19:43.868 --> 00:19:46.680 think it's an area that 00:19:47.690 --> 00:19:51.514 it feels like it's on the sideline, really. I think people like 00:19:51.552 --> 00:19:55.318 us in this field of work, we're aware of it, but we don't 00:19:55.334 --> 00:19:59.180 get necessarily asked to do that work. Yeah, 00:19:59.710 --> 00:20:03.520 it's tough sometimes in the EDI space because by 00:20:04.050 --> 00:20:07.422 amplifying and giving equity to certain 00:20:07.476 --> 00:20:11.182 demographics, it almost feels like sometimes you're pulling other people 00:20:11.236 --> 00:20:15.006 back because that's the perception they have, even though equity is 00:20:15.028 --> 00:20:18.818 all about amplifying and not pulling other people back. So you're trying 00:20:18.824 --> 00:20:21.874 to bring people up to the same level rather than bring people down to your 00:20:21.912 --> 00:20:25.394 level. You always feel like you're losing 00:20:25.442 --> 00:20:28.200 something by somebody else getting more. 00:20:29.530 --> 00:20:33.266 And again, organisations will resource different pieces 00:20:33.298 --> 00:20:36.978 of work or there would be different pieces of work that are perceived 00:20:36.994 --> 00:20:40.666 as more important at that one time. So the 00:20:40.688 --> 00:20:43.770 balance has always been when we're looking at 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.466 DNI is looking at all of 00:20:47.488 --> 00:20:51.326 the groups. So again, just sort of giving my example of 00:20:51.348 --> 00:20:55.086 the NHS, one of the things I always looked at 00:20:55.108 --> 00:20:58.634 when I worked in organisations was the workforce 00:20:58.682 --> 00:21:02.526 demographics. So looking at workforce demographics, looking at, and then I 00:21:02.548 --> 00:21:05.954 looked at the census demographics and seeing how that married up. 00:21:05.992 --> 00:21:09.666 And most good organisations tended to marry up 00:21:09.768 --> 00:21:13.426 and be similar to their communities because, you know, if it's similar to the 00:21:13.448 --> 00:21:17.234 community, it will be similar to the patient community. Generally 00:21:17.282 --> 00:21:20.566 speaking, there's huge disparities in 00:21:20.588 --> 00:21:24.086 that. Again, it 00:21:24.188 --> 00:21:27.942 opens that space into understanding where the priorities 00:21:28.006 --> 00:21:31.674 are for those organisations if their workforce is 00:21:31.712 --> 00:21:34.540 not reflective of their local community. 00:21:36.110 --> 00:21:39.210 Yeah, I was into some housing associations 00:21:39.630 --> 00:21:43.386 probably last year, the year before, where they were really struggling 00:21:43.498 --> 00:21:47.194 to find good people in their hourly 00:21:47.242 --> 00:21:50.880 paid roles of care workers. And 00:21:51.410 --> 00:21:54.862 the analysis they did identified the fact that most of their care 00:21:54.916 --> 00:21:58.202 homes and service provision 00:21:58.266 --> 00:22:01.842 locations tends to be in affluent type 00:22:01.896 --> 00:22:05.426 neighbourhoods and areas. And most of the people they wanted to 00:22:05.448 --> 00:22:08.100 attract to work in those places were 00:22:09.190 --> 00:22:13.014 some many miles away where they lived, and 00:22:13.052 --> 00:22:16.530 the transport links between where people were living in their target 00:22:16.610 --> 00:22:20.106 demographic for people to recruit. The transport links were 00:22:20.128 --> 00:22:23.546 poor or expensive, so people who they wanted to 00:22:23.568 --> 00:22:26.170 attract couldn't actually afford 00:22:27.790 --> 00:22:30.974 time and money to come to work at that 00:22:31.012 --> 00:22:34.654 location when they're being paid minimum wage or 00:22:34.692 --> 00:22:38.174 living wage. So they 00:22:38.212 --> 00:22:42.026 identified the fact they needed to put on a kind of a staff bus, collect 00:22:42.058 --> 00:22:45.618 people in the mornings, bus people in, because that way, 00:22:45.784 --> 00:22:49.060 that equity, if you like, would relieve it. But 00:22:49.430 --> 00:22:53.134 as you're saying there, it's important to look at your demographic 00:22:53.182 --> 00:22:56.806 of your territory, your locale, and then lay on top of 00:22:56.828 --> 00:23:00.566 that, the demographic of your staff and the people you 00:23:00.588 --> 00:23:03.702 serve, and make sure there's an alignment there, otherwise you find this 00:23:03.756 --> 00:23:07.094 disconnect. The people you want 00:23:07.132 --> 00:23:10.906 to work in your organisation can't afford to work 00:23:10.928 --> 00:23:14.490 there because there's no way getting to work every day. 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.154 Well, I think that example is a great one because public transport is 00:23:18.192 --> 00:23:21.978 expensive now, so if people are on minimum wage and then they're 00:23:21.984 --> 00:23:25.214 going to have to fork out for the transport cost to get to and from 00:23:25.252 --> 00:23:28.986 work, where if they can get a job much closer 00:23:29.018 --> 00:23:32.738 to where they live. Yeah. These are the sort of 00:23:32.744 --> 00:23:36.002 things that organisations need to consider when they're thinking 00:23:36.056 --> 00:23:36.660 about 00:23:40.230 --> 00:23:43.330 who they want to work in their organisation. There's so many nuances 00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:47.160 and not really understanding those types of things 00:23:47.610 --> 00:23:50.870 with regards to the areas that you're serving. 00:23:52.010 --> 00:23:55.190 I just don't think organisations necessarily 00:23:56.570 --> 00:24:00.214 have the chance to really think through all of this first. It tends to be 00:24:00.252 --> 00:24:03.338 something that they'll think about afterwards when they think, oh, well, actually, hold on a 00:24:03.344 --> 00:24:06.970 minute, we can't get anybody, or in that particular 00:24:07.040 --> 00:24:10.718 example, it could be only middle class, affluent people 00:24:10.804 --> 00:24:14.058 are applying for work here, or they're 00:24:14.074 --> 00:24:17.806 volunteering because they don't money. The 00:24:17.828 --> 00:24:21.546 people who you want to apply aren't applying 00:24:21.578 --> 00:24:25.426 because it's too expensive to work there and the people who would be able 00:24:25.448 --> 00:24:29.042 to get there easily wouldn't want a job because it's low paid 00:24:29.096 --> 00:24:31.940 work and they don't see that as something fitful for them. 00:24:33.590 --> 00:24:36.846 Again, getting the data and asking the questions, why aren't these people 00:24:36.888 --> 00:24:40.662 applying and what's the barriers? Because we can also look 00:24:40.716 --> 00:24:44.370 into the nature of people who are in that demographic 00:24:44.450 --> 00:24:48.038 where they are taking hourly paid, low paid work, unskilled or 00:24:48.124 --> 00:24:51.670 partially skilled work. They probably have childcare, they have care responsibilities, 00:24:51.750 --> 00:24:54.940 they have multiple challenges around 00:24:55.310 --> 00:24:58.826 maybe the single parent, maybe they're in a dysfunctional family. There's a whole load of 00:24:58.848 --> 00:25:02.554