WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:10.974 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:10.974 --> 00:00:14.574 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm 3 00:00:14.574 --> 00:00:18.199 Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into 4 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:21.900 the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.119 --> 00:00:25.935 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.935 --> 00:00:29.715 world where everyone not only belongs Bites thrives? 7 00:00:30.015 --> 00:00:33.855 You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.855 --> 00:00:37.440 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:41.280 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:44.855 in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding 11 00:00:44.855 --> 00:00:48.075 down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, 12 00:00:48.535 --> 00:00:52.030 and inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.570 --> 00:00:55.530 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.621 --> 00:00:57.315 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.375 --> 00:01:02.995 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.695 --> 00:01:07.480 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.020 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.775 --> 00:01:19.295 And today is episode 106 with the 19 00:01:19.295 --> 00:01:22.674 title, an ordinary bloke with an extraordinary 20 00:01:23.055 --> 00:01:26.690 mission. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Stephen Whitten. 21 00:01:26.830 --> 00:01:30.210 Stephen is the founder, Menebel 22 00:01:30.430 --> 00:01:34.085 Menebel, even, speaker and professional emcee. When I 23 00:01:34.085 --> 00:01:37.625 asked Stephen to describe his superpower, he said it is spreading joy 24 00:01:37.845 --> 00:01:41.690 and saving the world see smile at a time. Hello, Stephen. Welcome to 25 00:01:41.690 --> 00:01:45.150 the show. Joanne, hi. And I'm so keen to get 26 00:01:45.370 --> 00:01:48.250 stuck in. I interrupted you, so, 27 00:01:49.104 --> 00:01:52.725 apologies. Yes. It's absolutely I'm delighted to be here. The and that's my 28 00:01:52.945 --> 00:01:56.790 joyful radio voice, or I could be an ordinary 29 00:01:56.790 --> 00:02:00.070 bloke and just go, yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been it's brilliant. It's gonna 30 00:02:00.070 --> 00:02:03.475 be great. Bites alright. It's alright, Steve. I mean, I I yeah. I had to 31 00:02:03.475 --> 00:02:07.314 have see eventually, I suppose. No. 32 00:02:07.314 --> 00:02:10.354 I'm really excited. I mean, we've known each other now a couple of years and, 33 00:02:10.675 --> 00:02:13.790 Yeah. Yeah. I I'm looking forward to this conversation to find out more about you 34 00:02:13.790 --> 00:02:17.470 and what makes you tick. Oooo Er and I suspect you're not just an ordinary 35 00:02:17.470 --> 00:02:21.250 bloke on an extraordinary mission. There's more to you than that. So tell me more. 36 00:02:21.925 --> 00:02:25.285 Yeah. Do you know what? The ordinary bloke thing actually came from a mutual friend 37 00:02:25.285 --> 00:02:28.645 of ours, Jackie Handy. And we were having a chat one day, and I was 38 00:02:28.645 --> 00:02:32.200 talking about the challenges of life and where I'd come from and 39 00:02:32.200 --> 00:02:35.959 what had happened to me and all that stuff. And and she actually 40 00:02:35.959 --> 00:02:39.454 said to me, she said, you know what? Your your real superpower is that you, 41 00:02:39.454 --> 00:02:43.215 you know, you're an ordinary bloke. You're as you look, sound, and 42 00:02:43.215 --> 00:02:46.320 act like a very typical, 43 00:02:47.100 --> 00:02:50.860 you know, Bites, middle aged, hopefully, middle class. I 44 00:02:50.860 --> 00:02:54.625 don't know I don't know what that means anymore, but, you know, guy 45 00:02:54.625 --> 00:02:58.305 on the street, you're just ordinary. You could be working in a car dealership or 46 00:02:58.305 --> 00:03:00.885 in a supermarket or driving a bus 47 00:03:02.170 --> 00:03:05.770 or working in an office or running a big business, you know, just an 48 00:03:05.770 --> 00:03:09.615 ordinary, ordinary guy. But, yeah, you're right with what I hope 49 00:03:09.615 --> 00:03:13.235 is an extraordinary mission, which, came to me through 50 00:03:13.375 --> 00:03:17.215 some really dark Bites, actually, which I'll get on to in in a bit. But, 51 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.599 yeah. So that's that's what I'm what I'm all about. And most recently, the latest 52 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.299 sort of incarnation of of that journey and my evolution 53 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.915 is exactly as you said in the intro, which is about now 54 00:03:29.215 --> 00:03:32.815 properly realizing that my my destiny, which I think is a step above 55 00:03:32.815 --> 00:03:36.650 purpose, but, you know, the ultimate one is the the destiny is about 56 00:03:36.650 --> 00:03:40.490 spreading joy and literally trying to do that 57 00:03:40.490 --> 00:03:44.235 one one smile at a time, you know, saving the world by one 58 00:03:44.235 --> 00:03:47.755 one person smiling at a time. So I love that. An 59 00:03:47.755 --> 00:03:51.595 ordinary blow. Yeah. Yeah. As I know you, I I can see that in 60 00:03:51.595 --> 00:03:55.370 you that you you are unremarkable package. But as 61 00:03:55.370 --> 00:03:58.170 I say, I I know that that there's more to you than that. And, you 62 00:03:58.170 --> 00:04:01.785 know, you're and I can see you driving a 63 00:04:01.785 --> 00:04:05.465 bus, but I can really see you in a car dealership because isn't 64 00:04:05.465 --> 00:04:09.065 that your background? Yeah. It is totally. I started in a car dealership when I 65 00:04:09.065 --> 00:04:12.650 was 18. Absolutely loved it. It was an act of rebellion because 66 00:04:12.950 --> 00:04:16.630 I'd gone through school, and I'd done quite well academically given that I 67 00:04:16.630 --> 00:04:20.075 was a a school that wasn't renowned for its academic 68 00:04:20.135 --> 00:04:23.975 prowess, very ordinary secondary modern school in Aylesbury in 69 00:04:23.975 --> 00:04:27.515 Buckinghamshire where I grew up, having moved out of London when I was a kid. 70 00:04:28.055 --> 00:04:31.560 And I went into the car trade, and my my parents at the time would 71 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:35.240 have had me go into a factory or do something along their line 72 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:39.075 of work. So because I went into something that, to them, was a lot more 73 00:04:39.075 --> 00:04:42.915 glamorous, that was was almost a sort of my first act 74 00:04:42.915 --> 00:04:46.400 of rebellion. Now interestingly, I I used to I 75 00:04:46.400 --> 00:04:48.960 rebelled at them because they said, oh, we'll get you a job at the factory 76 00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:51.940 we work in. And I said, I don't wanna work anywhere that's 77 00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:56.095 cold, damp, greasy, smelly, and full of 78 00:04:56.095 --> 00:04:59.695 blokes. So I ended up in a car dealership which was cold, 79 00:04:59.695 --> 00:05:03.530 damp, greasy, see full of blokes. But 80 00:05:03.530 --> 00:05:07.290 the act of rebellion was I got to drive flash cars and take the take 81 00:05:07.290 --> 00:05:10.955 them home occasionally and sort of, you know, rub it in my parents' face that 82 00:05:10.955 --> 00:05:13.995 there there was me at a young age, you know, a flash young man in 83 00:05:13.995 --> 00:05:17.675 the early eighties doing that stuff. I think I think you shared a photograph on 84 00:05:17.675 --> 00:05:21.319 social media not so long ago of you sort of leaning on the bonnet 85 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.919 of, a car. Mhmm. I think you put the caption, me in my 86 00:05:24.919 --> 00:05:28.625 younger days, the same smile, just more hair or something, wasn't it? I 87 00:05:28.625 --> 00:05:31.105 was yeah. It was I think it was 4 I think I think it said 88 00:05:31.105 --> 00:05:34.840 something like 4 stone ago and a lot more hair. And it was a Ford 89 00:05:34.840 --> 00:05:38.280 Cortina that we had for sale on the Foraker, which kinda gives my age away 90 00:05:38.280 --> 00:05:41.975 a little bit as well. But yeah. And that's where it all started. And and 91 00:05:41.975 --> 00:05:45.655 despite my protestations of wanting to get away from the car 92 00:05:45.655 --> 00:05:49.270 industry, it still kinda drags you back in. Yeah. I I I 93 00:05:49.350 --> 00:05:52.630 it must give me a lot of life skills. You know? It it you're quite 94 00:05:52.630 --> 00:05:56.070 a a chatty, engaging, ordinary bloke. 95 00:05:56.070 --> 00:05:59.615 Yeah. And I guess the car dealership gives you that kind of background 96 00:05:59.615 --> 00:06:03.295 in talking the hind legs of a donkey and just engaging and talking, 97 00:06:03.295 --> 00:06:07.110 having conversations. Well, it did, but I think I look back on it 98 00:06:07.110 --> 00:06:10.870 now, and I I think my main survival tactic as a 99 00:06:10.870 --> 00:06:14.410 child in what was a very vibrant, very opinionated, 100 00:06:15.305 --> 00:06:19.071 very working class family. And, I mean, in the early days, my parents see 101 00:06:19.145 --> 00:06:22.925 very young when they had see. So we had to live with my grandparents, 102 00:06:23.145 --> 00:06:26.850 and they still had offspring that were living at home. So there was, like, this 103 00:06:26.850 --> 00:06:30.530 sort of big group of adults and one small 104 00:06:30.530 --> 00:06:34.345 child that learned very quickly probably that in order to get 105 00:06:34.345 --> 00:06:38.105 the attention, I had to be as gobby as some of the adults. And so 106 00:06:38.105 --> 00:06:41.340 I think by the time I was 6 or 7, I was probably quite a 107 00:06:41.580 --> 00:06:44.960 quite an irritating, precocious little child. 108 00:06:45.820 --> 00:06:48.940 If I saw a walking radish shop, now I'd I'd walk away from. But 109 00:06:49.604 --> 00:06:52.884 yeah. So I think that's where it started, and I think the car industry then 110 00:06:52.884 --> 00:06:56.324 just promoted that and gave me a platform to be even 111 00:06:56.324 --> 00:06:59.830 worse. Was it mainly kind of dealerships for big 112 00:06:59.830 --> 00:07:03.350 manufacturers, or was it the, the cars the car showroom on the 113 00:07:03.350 --> 00:07:06.845 corner pumping out the sort of the canardlies, if you 114 00:07:06.845 --> 00:07:10.605 like? Yeah. Well, it was it was worse than that. It was a a, you 115 00:07:10.605 --> 00:07:14.430 know, not quite a back street used car dealership, but it was a it was 116 00:07:14.430 --> 00:07:18.210 a used car dealer in a village that had probably 117 00:07:19.215 --> 00:07:22.915 15 to 20 used cars in stock, and we had a Skoda franchise as well, 118 00:07:23.215 --> 00:07:26.655 another part of the business, which was just down the road. And, of course, back 119 00:07:26.655 --> 00:07:30.110 then, see Skoda well, that was back in the day where I had a terrible 120 00:07:30.169 --> 00:07:33.850 reputation. You know, it was one of those sort of eastern Lockwood countries that no 121 00:07:33.850 --> 00:07:37.095 one went anywhere near, except unless you wanted to buy a brand new car and 122 00:07:37.095 --> 00:07:40.935 you had no money to buy buy it with. So we did quite well with 123 00:07:40.935 --> 00:07:44.135 that. But then, yeah, I I moved out the motor trade for a couple of 124 00:07:44.135 --> 00:07:47.680 years and then went back into it working for Vauxhall 125 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.120 Finance, which owned by General Motors, so Vauxhall's own finance 126 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.545 company, doing collections and debt recovery and stuff like 127 00:07:54.545 --> 00:07:58.385 that. And they they must have thought, well, this guy's got some good dealer 128 00:07:58.385 --> 00:08:02.100 background. We're making him an area manager. So I became the youngest area manager they'd 129 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:05.860 ever had and drove driving around in my Vauxhall Carlton, don't know if you 130 00:08:05.860 --> 00:08:09.295 remember those. I got that as a company car. So there was me, I think. 131 00:08:09.295 --> 00:08:12.975 I was like 22, 23, and I was driving around the 132 00:08:12.975 --> 00:08:16.740 Vauxhall Carlton. I thought I was Billy Bigg Wattsit, and which, of course, then 133 00:08:16.740 --> 00:08:20.340 it rubbed it on in my parents' face even more. Was that debt debt 134 00:08:20.340 --> 00:08:24.020 collection and repos and stuff, was it? That's what I started off doing with 135 00:08:24.020 --> 00:08:27.695 them. And then after a year, I got promoted into an area manager's 136 00:08:27.755 --> 00:08:31.275 job, and I totally I just did not have a clue what I was 137 00:08:31.275 --> 00:08:34.929 doing. I mean, it it was it was shockingly 138 00:08:34.990 --> 00:08:38.830 bad, really. You know, arse from elbow is is an understatement. I just 139 00:08:38.830 --> 00:08:42.495 did not have a clue. How I blagged my way 140 00:08:42.495 --> 00:08:46.175 through that is anyone's guess. But, hey, I Lockwood good. I was driving a lovely 141 00:08:46.175 --> 00:08:49.890 car. Eventually did the but the light bulb did go on eventually, and I did 142 00:08:49.890 --> 00:08:53.570 get to work out what I was doing. And then that then progressed me 143 00:08:53.570 --> 00:08:56.954 into another, what, another another 10 or 11 years 144 00:08:56.954 --> 00:09:00.714 working in that kind of environment before I stepped out and went self employed 145 00:09:00.714 --> 00:09:03.834 and started doing training and all that sort of stuff. And then, of course, as 146 00:09:03.834 --> 00:09:06.860 you know training to the motor industry? Yeah. Predominantly. 147 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:11.080 Yeah. Predominantly, which was, you know, again, despite 148 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:14.845 my stations, I always think at the time, I was like, well, I 149 00:09:14.845 --> 00:09:18.605 wanna get out of the car industry, but the more you do, the more you 150 00:09:18.605 --> 00:09:22.445 realize that your credibility is within that one sector in the 151 00:09:22.445 --> 00:09:26.110 main doing that type of work anyway. And, 152 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:29.810 actually, when you go into other organizations, you think that, 153 00:09:30.084 --> 00:09:33.065 you know, it's the it's the same crap, different wallpaper, 154 00:09:33.524 --> 00:09:37.285 basically. Tell me a bit about Ben Abel, because that figures it 155 00:09:37.285 --> 00:09:40.940 in sort of towards the end of your story. Mhmm. That then we can figure 156 00:09:40.940 --> 00:09:44.220 out how you got from where you were to there and and talk about Bites 157 00:09:44.220 --> 00:09:48.015 about the jo. You know? How did you discover that you you needed 158 00:09:48.015 --> 00:09:51.295 to bring joy to the world because you didn't necessarily have it yourself? Is that 159 00:09:51.295 --> 00:09:54.255 is that how it turned out? Well, yeah. I mean, this is this is the 160 00:09:54.255 --> 00:09:57.075 bit where it takes a bit of a dip, so brace yourselves. 161 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:02.070 Effectively, what happened was I jo back a tiny bit. I knew as 162 00:10:02.070 --> 00:10:05.665 a teenager bear in mind, I was a teenager in the early 163 00:10:05.665 --> 00:10:09.505 eighties, sort of 81, 82, that I 164 00:10:09.505 --> 00:10:13.160 I knew I was curious about my sexuality. But 165 00:10:13.160 --> 00:10:16.300 back then, we didn't talk about Bites, and 166 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.460 those that did came out fully as as gay 167 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:24.785 or hid it and didn't say or do anything. But I 168 00:10:24.785 --> 00:10:27.925 know that there were other boys of my age that were curious as well. 169 00:10:28.385 --> 00:10:31.750 And, you know, because of the sort of, dare I say, 170 00:10:31.750 --> 00:10:35.510 heteronormative part of that, managed to create a life that was 171 00:10:35.510 --> 00:10:39.175 that was normal in in the face of the the society, if you 172 00:10:39.175 --> 00:10:42.935 like. So yeah. So project forward 30 odd 173 00:10:42.935 --> 00:10:46.470 years working in the car industry. I'd been I'd got 174 00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:50.230 married, married, and I met and married the prettiest girl in the village when I 175 00:10:50.230 --> 00:10:53.910 was working in the car dealership. We got married very young. We had 2 children 176 00:10:53.910 --> 00:10:57.175 fairly quickly. We had the mortgage. We had the house. We had all the bits 177 00:10:57.175 --> 00:11:00.715 and pieces. And the car industry and everything I was doing in it 178 00:11:00.775 --> 00:11:04.535 facilitated that. But working in that industry also meant that you 179 00:11:04.535 --> 00:11:08.230 were under pressure, stressed, anxious about where your next 180 00:11:08.449 --> 00:11:11.730 paycheck was coming from, how big it was gonna be, and all that stuff. And, 181 00:11:12.335 --> 00:11:15.775 with all that in mind, eventually, that that was a bubble 182 00:11:15.775 --> 00:11:19.555 that ended up bursting and in the most unpleasant, 183 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:23.480 horrible way that I can imagine. And, you know, to this day, I still 184 00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:27.540 live with the regret and the and the hate for what happened there and and, 185 00:11:27.540 --> 00:11:31.315 you know, the the, remorse for what my now 186 00:11:31.315 --> 00:11:34.834 ex wife and my one child in particular feel that I 187 00:11:34.834 --> 00:11:38.070 did by coming out, by declaring the truth, and being authentically 188 00:11:46.645 --> 00:11:50.405 My marriage disintegrated. My family broke up, and I came 189 00:11:50.405 --> 00:11:54.165 out at the same time. So it was like, well, there's nothing else that 190 00:11:54.165 --> 00:11:57.720 can go what could possibly go wrong now? Or we'll just throw 191 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:01.160 bankruptcy into that mix as well. Oh, hang on a minute. Here comes a solicitor 192 00:12:01.160 --> 00:12:04.915 with some divorce papers. That'll do the trick. But yeah, so 193 00:12:04.915 --> 00:12:08.435 that's where I went. And then during the course of 2020, I realized that I 194 00:12:08.435 --> 00:12:12.089 wasn't the only person of a certain age in the car industry that had had 195 00:12:12.089 --> 00:12:15.529 those issues. So I reached out to some leaders and said, look, got this idea. 196 00:12:15.529 --> 00:12:19.305 I think we need to support our colleagues. What do you think? And immediately 197 00:12:19.365 --> 00:12:22.584 picked up some fantastic supporters and some great 198 00:12:22.964 --> 00:12:26.610 people who became advocates and ambassadors for us. And so 199 00:12:26.610 --> 00:12:30.450 that's how the the men able movement began. So so I'll answer 200 00:12:30.450 --> 00:12:34.290 your question. Yeah. So you 201 00:12:34.290 --> 00:12:37.725 say you look back on it, and it was a dark time, 202 00:12:37.725 --> 00:12:41.565 and things didn't go as smoothly as you'd hoped. You 203 00:12:41.565 --> 00:12:45.310 said you had some sort of regrets or certainly around your 204 00:12:45.529 --> 00:12:49.290 your your family, if you like. So on reflection, where where 205 00:12:49.449 --> 00:12:51.769 what could you have done differently, or where did it go wrong? Was it the 206 00:12:51.769 --> 00:12:55.545 stress you were under? Was it just? Yeah. I mean, well, I've I 207 00:12:55.545 --> 00:12:58.845 I mean, I suppose re yeah. Regret's a big word, isn't it? 208 00:12:59.385 --> 00:13:03.220 What I think I should have done was to have 209 00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:06.900 been brave enough and big enough to have owned it when I was 18, and 210 00:13:06.900 --> 00:13:10.365 be honest with, you know, the people around me. 211 00:13:10.665 --> 00:13:14.185 But at that time, I was fearful, you know. And the fact that that it 212 00:13:14.185 --> 00:13:18.030 was, you know, not not a completely sort of totally gay or totally 213 00:13:18.030 --> 00:13:21.390 straight thing, that it was easy for me to sort of cover one part of 214 00:13:21.390 --> 00:13:24.990 that up and and just do and outside of that, you know, I'm 215 00:13:24.990 --> 00:13:28.564 not gonna that sound you know, my ex wife will say that's 216 00:13:28.785 --> 00:13:32.545 manipulative and all that. It it's not. It genuinely is the case that I've 217 00:13:32.545 --> 00:13:35.690 met her, fell in love with her, loved her, and adored her deeply. 218 00:13:36.390 --> 00:13:40.070 And so at that point, was like, no. This is you know, Bites let's put 219 00:13:40.070 --> 00:13:43.135 that other bit in a in a box and leave it there. But, of course, 220 00:13:43.275 --> 00:13:46.955 it didn't stay there, did it? It simmered away and you know? And then 221 00:13:46.955 --> 00:13:50.650 when the conversation happened, when it literally was timed with the 222 00:13:50.810 --> 00:13:54.650 pandemic and the business collapsing and having all of that as well. I I 223 00:13:54.650 --> 00:13:58.330 didn't get the reaction from a few people, including my ex 224 00:13:58.330 --> 00:14:01.345 wife, that I thought I would have done. I don't know why. I don't know 225 00:14:01.345 --> 00:14:05.105 why I had believed or naively thought that she would be like, oh, okay. That's 226 00:14:05.105 --> 00:14:07.985 fine. You know? Well, now I just know something more about you that I didn't 227 00:14:07.985 --> 00:14:11.660 know before. Let's go to Tesco's. I didn't I didn't expect that, 228 00:14:11.660 --> 00:14:15.500 but I didn't expect the reaction that I did get. Mhmm. What that did 229 00:14:15.500 --> 00:14:19.264 do was see me down a very dark path of thinking Wellbeing. 230 00:14:19.264 --> 00:14:22.865 And I don't mean to trigger anyone who's listening here, but, you know, there were 231 00:14:22.865 --> 00:14:26.545 a couple of points where I thought fast moving train's got more appeal than dealing 232 00:14:26.545 --> 00:14:29.780 with this rubbish. And it's only when you get there that you think, 233 00:14:30.400 --> 00:14:33.920 that's not me, you know. People often ask me, would I do think differently if 234 00:14:33.920 --> 00:14:37.214 I had my life again? Things like this. And I I always say that I 235 00:14:37.214 --> 00:14:40.654 I love I love my family. My coming out story 236 00:14:40.654 --> 00:14:44.255 was not a smooth ride, but it the result has been very 237 00:14:44.255 --> 00:14:47.890 positive. But people often say, yeah, what would you do differently? I said, well, I 238 00:14:47.890 --> 00:14:51.410 wouldn't change a thing because I've got 2 fantastic children that 239 00:14:51.410 --> 00:14:55.225 wouldn't be alive, wouldn't be in my life now, wouldn't be amazing, had I 240 00:14:55.225 --> 00:14:58.504 done something different at the age of 18, 17, or 15, or or 10, or 241 00:14:58.504 --> 00:15:02.220 whatever years old. So Yeah. I I have to say, I would not 242 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:06.060 change a thing. Mhmm. Because otherwise, I I wish they'd 243 00:15:06.060 --> 00:15:09.660 erase you if you like. And I think that's that always keeps me focused 244 00:15:09.660 --> 00:15:12.855 that, yeah, I I've had a whole life. I've had a big life. I'm sure 245 00:15:12.855 --> 00:15:16.375 you've had a an amazing life doing what you Wellbeing, 246 00:15:16.375 --> 00:15:20.140 building that family. But it's it's difficult to regret your child's 247 00:15:20.140 --> 00:15:23.740 birth. Oh, yeah. No. And I don't I don't regret that at all. I mean, 248 00:15:23.740 --> 00:15:26.880 I think I still would Happen gone ahead and, you know, that would have happened. 249 00:15:27.365 --> 00:15:30.644 But what it would have done is given me the chance, you know, to make 250 00:15:30.644 --> 00:15:34.485 the right choices way back then, and also give my my now 251 00:15:34.485 --> 00:15:38.060 ex wife, as I say, the the chance to make an informed decision as well. 252 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:41.500 Mhmm. Bites not easy when everything comes together, you see the pandemic, 253 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:45.665 the business failing, your awakening to your own 254 00:15:45.665 --> 00:15:49.345 identity, and something to do about that. Bites everything kind of car 255 00:15:49.345 --> 00:15:52.830 crashes at once sometimes, doesn't it? And you just you wanna just start 256 00:15:52.830 --> 00:15:56.510 again. Well, yeah. That was exactly it. That was exactly 257 00:15:56.510 --> 00:16:00.270 it. And, you know, to be my age, you know, at the time, 258 00:16:00.270 --> 00:16:03.555 what, 53, to then be facing, 259 00:16:04.095 --> 00:16:07.855 you know, financial ruin, which some would argue was 260 00:16:07.855 --> 00:16:11.660 self imposed, but also, you know, that disintegration 261 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.940 of of a loving family environment 262 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:19.160 and, you know, losing the person that you would hope to have grown old 263 00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:22.524 with. You know, all of that together. And that's not a woe is me story. 264 00:16:22.524 --> 00:16:26.204 That's just a that's a accepting getting to a point of accepting 265 00:16:26.204 --> 00:16:29.889 that's the realistic situation that happened. You know, there's lots 266 00:16:29.889 --> 00:16:33.410 of other stuff that, obviously, I wouldn't share that, obviously, she knows about 267 00:16:33.410 --> 00:16:36.610 that. You know, she would argue, well, that was that was the crux of it 268 00:16:36.610 --> 00:16:39.575 all. Because, again, that's the other thing that the motor trade does is it 269 00:16:40.935 --> 00:16:44.640 the divorce rates are very high because paint in 270 00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:48.000 the bits in between the lines what you want. But suffice to 271 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.840 say, when you put a lot of people together in the same environment, and 272 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.895 they're stressed and anxious and under pressure, 273 00:16:55.675 --> 00:16:58.975 they can have a tendency to take 274 00:16:59.195 --> 00:17:02.390 solace in each other. You know what I'm saying? 275 00:17:03.090 --> 00:17:06.310 And so, of course, you throw that into the mix as well, and and suddenly, 276 00:17:06.310 --> 00:17:10.105 Bites, yeah, it's it's a bit of a hotbed for, you know, 277 00:17:10.105 --> 00:17:13.304 all sorts of stuff to to happen. I'm sure that's not unique to the car 278 00:17:13.304 --> 00:17:17.144 industry. I hear a lot about that in other industries as well. But, you 279 00:17:17.144 --> 00:17:20.829 know, yeah, all of that and everything, as you say, collapsed 280 00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:24.650 at the beginning of 2020, and that was my year to go well. I 281 00:17:24.650 --> 00:17:28.454 either genuinely do go off and reinvent myself as a bus driver and 282 00:17:28.454 --> 00:17:32.294 go and do something else or think seriously about what can I do? And 283 00:17:32.294 --> 00:17:35.335 once I'd started the ball rolling with the men able, and I could see that, 284 00:17:35.335 --> 00:17:39.159 actually, yeah, this is I've got something here. This is where it started to feel 285 00:17:39.220 --> 00:17:42.840 that I was now fulfilling my purpose for the first time ever. Emanable, 286 00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:46.205 just tell us a bit about what sparked it. I mean, you've given us a 287 00:17:46.205 --> 00:17:49.165 bit of hint, you know, what what was the kind of the big idea? What's 288 00:17:49.165 --> 00:17:52.924 its purpose? And who do you does it have most success with at 289 00:17:52.924 --> 00:17:56.510 the moment? So it was it was coming from the point 290 00:17:56.510 --> 00:17:59.970 of, I know I need to I want to do something that supports 291 00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:02.265 predominantly men in the industry, but then realizing very quickly that, actually, this isn't a 292 00:18:02.364 --> 00:18:02.444 see 293 00:18:08.665 --> 00:18:11.566 then then the industry has a big problem with recruiting in its own likeness. It 294 00:18:11.566 --> 00:18:11.945 also has a big problem with diversity and inclusion. There's lots of work going on 295 00:18:11.945 --> 00:18:15.770 in likeness. It also has a big problem with diversity and inclusion. There's lots of 296 00:18:15.770 --> 00:18:19.470 work going on in this area, but it's still a very male dominated 297 00:18:19.770 --> 00:18:23.275 masculine industry. And as a result, we're 298 00:18:23.275 --> 00:18:26.795 not attracting the right people. We're not gate we're not keeping the right 299 00:18:26.795 --> 00:18:30.460 people. So this point about mental health became 300 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:34.240 rapidly about diversity and inclusion and inclusivity 301 00:18:34.620 --> 00:18:38.380 and equity and everything else. And I then coined a 302 00:18:38.380 --> 00:18:42.115 phrase which was, if we want to achieve diversity and inclusion 303 00:18:42.115 --> 00:18:45.794 in the automotive industry, we have to address men's mental 304 00:18:45.794 --> 00:18:49.570 health. Because what's going on there and the reason that we have homophily, which 305 00:18:49.570 --> 00:18:53.330 is the, you know, recruiting in your own likeness, the reason that 306 00:18:53.330 --> 00:18:56.184 we have that is that there are an awful lot of men who have progressed 307 00:18:56.184 --> 00:18:59.945 into senior positions, and out of fear or 308 00:18:59.945 --> 00:19:03.669 lack of confidence or low self esteem or whatever it is, what they 309 00:19:03.669 --> 00:19:07.110 do because they don't wanna take a risk and they don't wanna put their own 310 00:19:07.110 --> 00:19:10.809 situation in jeopardy, what they end up doing is they continue 311 00:19:10.870 --> 00:19:14.475 to recruit people who look, sound, and act like them. So 312 00:19:14.475 --> 00:19:18.015 someone comes along who's a bit different, a bit quirky, 313 00:19:18.235 --> 00:19:21.970 doesn't look like them, hasn't got the same background, doesn't dress like them, 314 00:19:21.970 --> 00:19:25.650 whatever it might be. So that person comes Belonging, and suddenly that 315 00:19:25.650 --> 00:19:29.125 poses a, oh, that's gonna be a challenge. You know? 316 00:19:29.125 --> 00:19:32.085 Actually, what I want is somebody who can drop in the seat and get up 317 00:19:32.085 --> 00:19:35.845 to speed quickly. Now that doesn't work either because what we end up with in 318 00:19:35.845 --> 00:19:39.500 the car industry is a revolving door and people that go from business to 319 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:43.100 business to business. And and I've said it a few Bites. We get, you know, 320 00:19:43.100 --> 00:19:45.985 a guy will go for a job and he's see, you know, he wears as 321 00:19:45.985 --> 00:19:48.945 a badge of honor the fact that he's done 18 months with that business and 322 00:19:48.945 --> 00:19:52.600 6 months with that one and 2 years there and 3 years there. Well, 323 00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:55.980 that's not a badge of honor. That's telling that's telling you something. That's a pattern. 324 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.395 So MEN ABLE set out with that initial men's mental health 325 00:20:00.395 --> 00:20:03.835 thing, rapidly became about diversity and inclusion. As 326 00:20:03.835 --> 00:20:07.435 rapidly now, we evolved that to become about mental wealth, not 327 00:20:07.435 --> 00:20:11.230 mental health, because that's about in everything around getting people to have 328 00:20:11.230 --> 00:20:14.590 the right energy and the right approach to this. And like I said, in the 329 00:20:14.590 --> 00:20:18.235 most recent few days or weeks, we're 330 00:20:18.235 --> 00:20:21.855 starting to talk more about, well, well, what brings you joy? You know, let's 331 00:20:21.995 --> 00:20:25.750 let's not focus on the dark down stuff because no one wants to talk 332 00:20:25.750 --> 00:20:28.710 about that. But let's focus on what you can do to be more positive and 333 00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:32.149 upbeat. All male or engineering or workshoppy type 334 00:20:32.149 --> 00:20:35.905 environments or dealership environments that you described tend to be, as you 335 00:20:35.905 --> 00:20:39.525 say, a bit filled by a monoculture, a typical 336 00:20:40.145 --> 00:20:43.789 ordinary bloke type. And the environment can all Change 337 00:20:43.789 --> 00:20:47.549 environments can be quite toxic. And survivor of the fittest, the alpha 338 00:20:47.549 --> 00:20:50.990 male, and everyone sort of falling in behind. You know, you see you see the 339 00:20:50.990 --> 00:20:54.534 stereotypes. It's it's quite a cruel environment if you're if you're 340 00:20:54.534 --> 00:20:58.375 different. And I think, you know, maybe not maybe not today, but certainly not 341 00:20:58.375 --> 00:21:01.870 too distant past. Being queer, being gay, being bi 342 00:21:02.010 --> 00:21:05.610 was a was a weakness that people used to latch on. I've heard of 343 00:21:05.610 --> 00:21:09.345 stories about people locking people in cupboards and things because they were gay 344 00:21:09.345 --> 00:21:12.705 or, you know, in the in the all in the aim of of banter and 345 00:21:12.705 --> 00:21:15.950 all good fun and a bit of a laugh. Oh, a 100%. I mean, I 346 00:21:15.950 --> 00:21:19.550 still hear the odd little story about it, but the the the key one is 347 00:21:19.550 --> 00:21:22.990 the microaggressions. You know, it's the questions and it's the 348 00:21:22.990 --> 00:21:26.775 comments that get aimed at at you, and I've never 349 00:21:26.775 --> 00:21:30.395 had any of that. And part of that is because I recognized 350 00:21:31.175 --> 00:21:34.789 that I was probably a part of that engine of of throwing out 351 00:21:34.789 --> 00:21:38.549 that banter, in inverted commas. But also, that 352 00:21:38.549 --> 00:21:42.005 ordinary bloke thing is actually, I see that to to effect, 353 00:21:42.165 --> 00:21:45.925 because I'll start off a talk or a conversation with a group, 354 00:21:45.925 --> 00:21:49.365 and I'll, you know, I'll just act and look and sound as I 355 00:21:49.365 --> 00:21:52.970 am. But I'll wear a pink shirt with matching 356 00:21:53.030 --> 00:21:56.790 socks and pink laces. And notice that 1 or 2 357 00:21:56.790 --> 00:21:59.785 people in the room have have clocked that and go, hang on a minute. This 358 00:21:59.785 --> 00:22:03.325 is this guy's a bit different. And then I'll flash my rainbow 359 00:22:03.385 --> 00:22:06.919 bracelet, and I'll, you know, act up being a bit camp and throw a 360 00:22:06.919 --> 00:22:10.679 few gay innuendos in there and suddenly just say to them, 361 00:22:10.679 --> 00:22:14.440 look, I'm in the most masculine environment you could be in, but I really don't 362 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:18.135 give a shit. I don't care. You know, you can throw whatever you want 363 00:22:18.135 --> 00:22:21.975 at me, but just do not throw that banter and that stuff at 364 00:22:21.975 --> 00:22:25.799 a 17 year old person, boy or girl, who's come to work 365 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.559 in your business to to to do an apprenticeship because they wanna, you 366 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:33.355 know, work with cars. And suddenly, they find that they're in an environment 367 00:22:33.355 --> 00:22:37.115 where, you know, that conversation over coffee. Have you got a girlfriend 368 00:22:37.115 --> 00:22:40.509 then, Jamie? Come on, are you out are you out on you out on Saturday 369 00:22:40.509 --> 00:22:44.269 night? You're gonna pull a few birds? And so Jamie now can't say, 370 00:22:44.269 --> 00:22:47.475 well, no, actually, because, you know, I'm gay and I've got a boyfriend. 371 00:22:47.775 --> 00:22:50.515 Because the the environment is is too 372 00:22:51.615 --> 00:22:55.450 if it's not toxic, it's certainly not safe to to do that. 373 00:22:55.450 --> 00:22:59.290 If you are like I was, a 17, 18 year old lad who, 1, 374 00:22:59.290 --> 00:23:02.875 is questioning it, and 2, thinks this is 375 00:23:02.875 --> 00:23:06.715 this is dangerous for me to, you know, they not dangerous in a 376 00:23:06.715 --> 00:23:10.390 physical harm way, although that could be the case, but dangerous certainly 377 00:23:10.390 --> 00:23:13.850 mentally. A really tough culture to kind of overcome 378 00:23:13.990 --> 00:23:17.750 because it's so ingrained and so part of the 379 00:23:17.750 --> 00:23:21.235 way it is, if you like. And it's not not surprised that, you know, you 380 00:23:21.235 --> 00:23:24.035 you almost have to fix the problem before you can change the problem. It's that 381 00:23:24.035 --> 00:23:26.855 chicken and egg, isn't it? How do you how do you dilute the culture 382 00:23:27.899 --> 00:23:31.659 with difference when difference is driven out? Well, you asked me at the 383 00:23:31.659 --> 00:23:35.340 beginning of of that. I was conscious. I didn't quite answer the question previously, which 384 00:23:35.340 --> 00:23:39.005 was about how what successes are we having with that. The point 385 00:23:39.005 --> 00:23:41.805 is that where we got to was that to go out there and be the 386 00:23:42.045 --> 00:23:45.805 and say, look, the culture needs to change. This is about culture. You know? And 387 00:23:45.805 --> 00:23:48.750 I've got a real it it was a great phrase used by a politician a 388 00:23:48.750 --> 00:23:52.430 few weeks ago, which is jo one likes the guy that shouts iceberg. And for 389 00:23:52.430 --> 00:23:55.410 the last 3 years, I've been that guy that's shouting iceberg, 390 00:23:56.005 --> 00:23:59.765 whilst parts of the car industry have been, well, let's just get our 391 00:23:59.765 --> 00:24:03.500 deck chairs back in the right place, you know, in an in a 392 00:24:03.500 --> 00:24:07.260 sink on a sinking ship sort of thing. And as a 393 00:24:07.260 --> 00:24:10.620 result, we're now talking about, oh, we're not recruiting the right enough people. We're not 394 00:24:10.620 --> 00:24:14.375 keeping the right people. We're not doing this. We're not doing that. So one of 395 00:24:14.375 --> 00:24:18.054 the things that I did with Men Abel was created an accreditation program 396 00:24:18.054 --> 00:24:21.250 called Well-being Winners. And what we do with that is we go in and we 397 00:24:21.250 --> 00:24:24.470 do an assessment, and we look at this from a perspective of well-being. 398 00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:28.290 Now one of my great supporters actually said that the problem you've got, 399 00:24:28.290 --> 00:24:32.125 Steve, is that you're going to a you're going to an industry 400 00:24:32.664 --> 00:24:36.424 with a solution to a problem they don't perceive they have. And I was like, 401 00:24:36.424 --> 00:24:40.170