Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your
Joanne Lockwood: sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into
Joanne Lockwood: the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal
Joanne Lockwood: transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a
Joanne Lockwood: world where everyone not only belongs Bites thrives?
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Joanne Lockwood: unseen, challenge the status quo, and share
Joanne Lockwood: stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive
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Joanne Lockwood: down after a long day, let's connect, reflect,
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Joanne Lockwood: you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to
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Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 106 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title, an ordinary bloke with an extraordinary
Joanne Lockwood: mission. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Stephen Whitten.
Joanne Lockwood: Stephen is the founder, Menebel
Joanne Lockwood: Menebel, even, speaker and professional emcee. When I
Joanne Lockwood: asked Stephen to describe his superpower, he said it is spreading joy
Joanne Lockwood: and saving the world see smile at a time. Hello, Stephen. Welcome to
Joanne Lockwood: the show. Joanne, hi. And I'm so keen to get
Stephen Whitton: stuck in. I interrupted you, so,
Stephen Whitton: apologies. Yes. It's absolutely I'm delighted to be here. The and that's my
Stephen Whitton: joyful radio voice, or I could be an ordinary
Stephen Whitton: bloke and just go, yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been it's brilliant. It's gonna
Stephen Whitton: be great. Bites alright. It's alright, Steve. I mean, I I yeah. I had to
Joanne Lockwood: have see eventually, I suppose. No.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm really excited. I mean, we've known each other now a couple of years and,
Stephen Whitton: Yeah. Yeah. I I'm looking forward to this conversation to find out more about you
Joanne Lockwood: and what makes you tick. Oooo Er and I suspect you're not just an ordinary
Joanne Lockwood: bloke on an extraordinary mission. There's more to you than that. So tell me more.
Stephen Whitton: Yeah. Do you know what? The ordinary bloke thing actually came from a mutual friend
Stephen Whitton: of ours, Jackie Handy. And we were having a chat one day, and I was
Stephen Whitton: talking about the challenges of life and where I'd come from and
Stephen Whitton: what had happened to me and all that stuff. And and she actually
Stephen Whitton: said to me, she said, you know what? Your your real superpower is that you,
Stephen Whitton: you know, you're an ordinary bloke. You're as you look, sound, and
Stephen Whitton: act like a very typical,
Stephen Whitton: you know, Bites, middle aged, hopefully, middle class. I
Stephen Whitton: don't know I don't know what that means anymore, but, you know, guy
Stephen Whitton: on the street, you're just ordinary. You could be working in a car dealership or
Stephen Whitton: in a supermarket or driving a bus
Stephen Whitton: or working in an office or running a big business, you know, just an
Stephen Whitton: ordinary, ordinary guy. But, yeah, you're right with what I hope
Stephen Whitton: is an extraordinary mission, which, came to me through
Stephen Whitton: some really dark Bites, actually, which I'll get on to in in a bit. But,
Stephen Whitton: yeah. So that's that's what I'm what I'm all about. And most recently, the latest
Stephen Whitton: sort of incarnation of of that journey and my evolution
Stephen Whitton: is exactly as you said in the intro, which is about now
Stephen Whitton: properly realizing that my my destiny, which I think is a step above
Stephen Whitton: purpose, but, you know, the ultimate one is the the destiny is about
Stephen Whitton: spreading joy and literally trying to do that
Stephen Whitton: one one smile at a time, you know, saving the world by one
Stephen Whitton: one person smiling at a time. So I love that. An
Joanne Lockwood: ordinary blow. Yeah. Yeah. As I know you, I I can see that in
Joanne Lockwood: you that you you are unremarkable package. But as
Joanne Lockwood: I say, I I know that that there's more to you than that. And, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, you're and I can see you driving a
Joanne Lockwood: bus, but I can really see you in a car dealership because isn't
Joanne Lockwood: that your background? Yeah. It is totally. I started in a car dealership when I
Stephen Whitton: was 18. Absolutely loved it. It was an act of rebellion because
Stephen Whitton: I'd gone through school, and I'd done quite well academically given that I
Stephen Whitton: was a a school that wasn't renowned for its academic
Stephen Whitton: prowess, very ordinary secondary modern school in Aylesbury in
Stephen Whitton: Buckinghamshire where I grew up, having moved out of London when I was a kid.
Stephen Whitton: And I went into the car trade, and my my parents at the time would
Stephen Whitton: have had me go into a factory or do something along their line
Stephen Whitton: of work. So because I went into something that, to them, was a lot more
Stephen Whitton: glamorous, that was was almost a sort of my first act
Stephen Whitton: of rebellion. Now interestingly, I I used to I
Stephen Whitton: rebelled at them because they said, oh, we'll get you a job at the factory
Stephen Whitton: we work in. And I said, I don't wanna work anywhere that's
Stephen Whitton: cold, damp, greasy, smelly, and full of
Stephen Whitton: blokes. So I ended up in a car dealership which was cold,
Stephen Whitton: damp, greasy, see full of blokes. But
Stephen Whitton: the act of rebellion was I got to drive flash cars and take the take
Stephen Whitton: them home occasionally and sort of, you know, rub it in my parents' face that
Stephen Whitton: there there was me at a young age, you know, a flash young man in
Stephen Whitton: the early eighties doing that stuff. I think I think you shared a photograph on
Joanne Lockwood: social media not so long ago of you sort of leaning on the bonnet
Joanne Lockwood: of, a car. Mhmm. I think you put the caption, me in my
Joanne Lockwood: younger days, the same smile, just more hair or something, wasn't it? I
Joanne Lockwood: was yeah. It was I think it was 4 I think I think it said
Stephen Whitton: something like 4 stone ago and a lot more hair. And it was a Ford
Stephen Whitton: Cortina that we had for sale on the Foraker, which kinda gives my age away
Stephen Whitton: a little bit as well. But yeah. And that's where it all started. And and
Stephen Whitton: despite my protestations of wanting to get away from the car
Stephen Whitton: industry, it still kinda drags you back in. Yeah. I I I
Joanne Lockwood: it must give me a lot of life skills. You know? It it you're quite
Joanne Lockwood: a a chatty, engaging, ordinary bloke.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I guess the car dealership gives you that kind of background
Joanne Lockwood: in talking the hind legs of a donkey and just engaging and talking,
Joanne Lockwood: having conversations. Well, it did, but I think I look back on it
Stephen Whitton: now, and I I think my main survival tactic as a
Stephen Whitton: child in what was a very vibrant, very opinionated,
Stephen Whitton: very working class family. And, I mean, in the early days, my parents see
Stephen Whitton: very young when they had see. So we had to live with my grandparents,
Stephen Whitton: and they still had offspring that were living at home. So there was, like, this
Stephen Whitton: sort of big group of adults and one small
Stephen Whitton: child that learned very quickly probably that in order to get
Stephen Whitton: the attention, I had to be as gobby as some of the adults. And so
Stephen Whitton: I think by the time I was 6 or 7, I was probably quite a
Stephen Whitton: quite an irritating, precocious little child.
Stephen Whitton: If I saw a walking radish shop, now I'd I'd walk away from. But
Stephen Whitton: yeah. So I think that's where it started, and I think the car industry then
Stephen Whitton: just promoted that and gave me a platform to be even
Stephen Whitton: worse. Was it mainly kind of dealerships for big
Joanne Lockwood: manufacturers, or was it the, the cars the car showroom on the
Joanne Lockwood: corner pumping out the sort of the canardlies, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like? Yeah. Well, it was it was worse than that. It was a a, you
Stephen Whitton: know, not quite a back street used car dealership, but it was a it was
Stephen Whitton: a used car dealer in a village that had probably
Stephen Whitton: 15 to 20 used cars in stock, and we had a Skoda franchise as well,
Stephen Whitton: another part of the business, which was just down the road. And, of course, back
Stephen Whitton: then, see Skoda well, that was back in the day where I had a terrible
Stephen Whitton: reputation. You know, it was one of those sort of eastern Lockwood countries that no
Stephen Whitton: one went anywhere near, except unless you wanted to buy a brand new car and
Stephen Whitton: you had no money to buy buy it with. So we did quite well with
Stephen Whitton: that. But then, yeah, I I moved out the motor trade for a couple of
Stephen Whitton: years and then went back into it working for Vauxhall
Stephen Whitton: Finance, which owned by General Motors, so Vauxhall's own finance
Stephen Whitton: company, doing collections and debt recovery and stuff like
Stephen Whitton: that. And they they must have thought, well, this guy's got some good dealer
Stephen Whitton: background. We're making him an area manager. So I became the youngest area manager they'd
Stephen Whitton: ever had and drove driving around in my Vauxhall Carlton, don't know if you
Stephen Whitton: remember those. I got that as a company car. So there was me, I think.
Stephen Whitton: I was like 22, 23, and I was driving around the
Stephen Whitton: Vauxhall Carlton. I thought I was Billy Bigg Wattsit, and which, of course, then
Stephen Whitton: it rubbed it on in my parents' face even more. Was that debt debt
Joanne Lockwood: collection and repos and stuff, was it? That's what I started off doing with
Stephen Whitton: them. And then after a year, I got promoted into an area manager's
Stephen Whitton: job, and I totally I just did not have a clue what I was
Stephen Whitton: doing. I mean, it it was it was shockingly
Stephen Whitton: bad, really. You know, arse from elbow is is an understatement. I just
Stephen Whitton: did not have a clue. How I blagged my way
Stephen Whitton: through that is anyone's guess. But, hey, I Lockwood good. I was driving a lovely
Stephen Whitton: car. Eventually did the but the light bulb did go on eventually, and I did
Stephen Whitton: get to work out what I was doing. And then that then progressed me
Stephen Whitton: into another, what, another another 10 or 11 years
Stephen Whitton: working in that kind of environment before I stepped out and went self employed
Stephen Whitton: and started doing training and all that sort of stuff. And then, of course, as
Stephen Whitton: you know training to the motor industry? Yeah. Predominantly.
Stephen Whitton: Yeah. Predominantly, which was, you know, again, despite
Stephen Whitton: my stations, I always think at the time, I was like, well, I
Stephen Whitton: wanna get out of the car industry, but the more you do, the more you
Stephen Whitton: realize that your credibility is within that one sector in the
Stephen Whitton: main doing that type of work anyway. And,
Stephen Whitton: actually, when you go into other organizations, you think that,
Stephen Whitton: you know, it's the it's the same crap, different wallpaper,
Stephen Whitton: basically. Tell me a bit about Ben Abel, because that figures it
Joanne Lockwood: in sort of towards the end of your story. Mhmm. That then we can figure
Joanne Lockwood: out how you got from where you were to there and and talk about Bites
Joanne Lockwood: about the jo. You know? How did you discover that you you needed
Joanne Lockwood: to bring joy to the world because you didn't necessarily have it yourself? Is that
Joanne Lockwood: is that how it turned out? Well, yeah. I mean, this is this is the
Stephen Whitton: bit where it takes a bit of a dip, so brace yourselves.
Stephen Whitton: Effectively, what happened was I jo back a tiny bit. I knew as
Stephen Whitton: a teenager bear in mind, I was a teenager in the early
Stephen Whitton: eighties, sort of 81, 82, that I
Stephen Whitton: I knew I was curious about my sexuality. But
Stephen Whitton: back then, we didn't talk about Bites, and
Stephen Whitton: those that did came out fully as as gay
Stephen Whitton: or hid it and didn't say or do anything. But I
Stephen Whitton: know that there were other boys of my age that were curious as well.
Stephen Whitton: And, you know, because of the sort of, dare I say,
Stephen Whitton: heteronormative part of that, managed to create a life that was
Stephen Whitton: that was normal in in the face of the the society, if you
Stephen Whitton: like. So yeah. So project forward 30 odd
Stephen Whitton: years working in the car industry. I'd been I'd got
Stephen Whitton: married, married, and I met and married the prettiest girl in the village when I
Stephen Whitton: was working in the car dealership. We got married very young. We had 2 children
Stephen Whitton: fairly quickly. We had the mortgage. We had the house. We had all the bits
Stephen Whitton: and pieces. And the car industry and everything I was doing in it
Stephen Whitton: facilitated that. But working in that industry also meant that you
Stephen Whitton: were under pressure, stressed, anxious about where your next
Stephen Whitton: paycheck was coming from, how big it was gonna be, and all that stuff. And,
Stephen Whitton: with all that in mind, eventually, that that was a bubble
Stephen Whitton: that ended up bursting and in the most unpleasant,
Stephen Whitton: horrible way that I can imagine. And, you know, to this day, I still
Stephen Whitton: live with the regret and the and the hate for what happened there and and,
Stephen Whitton: you know, the the, remorse for what my now
Stephen Whitton: ex wife and my one child in particular feel that I
Stephen Whitton: did by coming out, by declaring the truth, and being authentically
Stephen Whitton: My marriage disintegrated. My family broke up, and I came
Stephen Whitton: out at the same time. So it was like, well, there's nothing else that
Stephen Whitton: can go what could possibly go wrong now? Or we'll just throw
Stephen Whitton: bankruptcy into that mix as well. Oh, hang on a minute. Here comes a solicitor
Stephen Whitton: with some divorce papers. That'll do the trick. But yeah, so
Stephen Whitton: that's where I went. And then during the course of 2020, I realized that I
Stephen Whitton: wasn't the only person of a certain age in the car industry that had had
Stephen Whitton: those issues. So I reached out to some leaders and said, look, got this idea.
Stephen Whitton: I think we need to support our colleagues. What do you think? And immediately
Stephen Whitton: picked up some fantastic supporters and some great
Stephen Whitton: people who became advocates and ambassadors for us. And so
Stephen Whitton: that's how the the men able movement began. So so I'll answer
Stephen Whitton: your question. Yeah. So you
Joanne Lockwood: say you look back on it, and it was a dark time,
Joanne Lockwood: and things didn't go as smoothly as you'd hoped. You
Joanne Lockwood: said you had some sort of regrets or certainly around your
Joanne Lockwood: your your family, if you like. So on reflection, where where
Joanne Lockwood: what could you have done differently, or where did it go wrong? Was it the
Joanne Lockwood: stress you were under? Was it just? Yeah. I mean, well, I've I
Stephen Whitton: I mean, I suppose re yeah. Regret's a big word, isn't it?
Stephen Whitton: What I think I should have done was to have
Stephen Whitton: been brave enough and big enough to have owned it when I was 18, and
Stephen Whitton: be honest with, you know, the people around me.
Stephen Whitton: But at that time, I was fearful, you know. And the fact that that it
Stephen Whitton: was, you know, not not a completely sort of totally gay or totally
Stephen Whitton: straight thing, that it was easy for me to sort of cover one part of
Stephen Whitton: that up and and just do and outside of that, you know, I'm
Stephen Whitton: not gonna that sound you know, my ex wife will say that's
Stephen Whitton: manipulative and all that. It it's not. It genuinely is the case that I've
Stephen Whitton: met her, fell in love with her, loved her, and adored her deeply.
Stephen Whitton: And so at that point, was like, no. This is you know, Bites let's put
Stephen Whitton: that other bit in a in a box and leave it there. But, of course,
Stephen Whitton: it didn't stay there, did it? It simmered away and you know? And then
Stephen Whitton: when the conversation happened, when it literally was timed with the
Stephen Whitton: pandemic and the business collapsing and having all of that as well. I I
Stephen Whitton: didn't get the reaction from a few people, including my ex
Stephen Whitton: wife, that I thought I would have done. I don't know why. I don't know
Stephen Whitton: why I had believed or naively thought that she would be like, oh, okay. That's
Stephen Whitton: fine. You know? Well, now I just know something more about you that I didn't
Stephen Whitton: know before. Let's go to Tesco's. I didn't I didn't expect that,
Stephen Whitton: but I didn't expect the reaction that I did get. Mhmm. What that did
Stephen Whitton: do was see me down a very dark path of thinking Wellbeing.
Stephen Whitton: And I don't mean to trigger anyone who's listening here, but, you know, there were
Stephen Whitton: a couple of points where I thought fast moving train's got more appeal than dealing
Stephen Whitton: with this rubbish. And it's only when you get there that you think,
Stephen Whitton: that's not me, you know. People often ask me, would I do think differently if
Joanne Lockwood: I had my life again? Things like this. And I I always say that I
Joanne Lockwood: I love I love my family. My coming out story
Joanne Lockwood: was not a smooth ride, but it the result has been very
Joanne Lockwood: positive. But people often say, yeah, what would you do differently? I said, well, I
Joanne Lockwood: wouldn't change a thing because I've got 2 fantastic children that
Joanne Lockwood: wouldn't be alive, wouldn't be in my life now, wouldn't be amazing, had I
Joanne Lockwood: done something different at the age of 18, 17, or 15, or or 10, or
Joanne Lockwood: whatever years old. So Yeah. I I have to say, I would not
Joanne Lockwood: change a thing. Mhmm. Because otherwise, I I wish they'd
Joanne Lockwood: erase you if you like. And I think that's that always keeps me focused
Joanne Lockwood: that, yeah, I I've had a whole life. I've had a big life. I'm sure
Joanne Lockwood: you've had a an amazing life doing what you Wellbeing,
Joanne Lockwood: building that family. But it's it's difficult to regret your child's
Joanne Lockwood: birth. Oh, yeah. No. And I don't I don't regret that at all. I mean,
Stephen Whitton: I think I still would Happen gone ahead and, you know, that would have happened.
Stephen Whitton: But what it would have done is given me the chance, you know, to make
Stephen Whitton: the right choices way back then, and also give my my now
Stephen Whitton: ex wife, as I say, the the chance to make an informed decision as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Bites not easy when everything comes together, you see the pandemic,
Joanne Lockwood: the business failing, your awakening to your own
Joanne Lockwood: identity, and something to do about that. Bites everything kind of car
Joanne Lockwood: crashes at once sometimes, doesn't it? And you just you wanna just start
Joanne Lockwood: again. Well, yeah. That was exactly it. That was exactly
Stephen Whitton: it. And, you know, to be my age, you know, at the time,
Stephen Whitton: what, 53, to then be facing,
Stephen Whitton: you know, financial ruin, which some would argue was
Stephen Whitton: self imposed, but also, you know, that disintegration
Stephen Whitton: of of a loving family environment
Stephen Whitton: and, you know, losing the person that you would hope to have grown old
Stephen Whitton: with. You know, all of that together. And that's not a woe is me story.
Stephen Whitton: That's just a that's a accepting getting to a point of accepting
Stephen Whitton: that's the realistic situation that happened. You know, there's lots
Stephen Whitton: of other stuff that, obviously, I wouldn't share that, obviously, she knows about
Stephen Whitton: that. You know, she would argue, well, that was that was the crux of it
Stephen Whitton: all. Because, again, that's the other thing that the motor trade does is it
Stephen Whitton: the divorce rates are very high because paint in
Stephen Whitton: the bits in between the lines what you want. But suffice to
Stephen Whitton: say, when you put a lot of people together in the same environment, and
Stephen Whitton: they're stressed and anxious and under pressure,
Stephen Whitton: they can have a tendency to take
Stephen Whitton: solace in each other. You know what I'm saying?
Stephen Whitton: And so, of course, you throw that into the mix as well, and and suddenly,
Stephen Whitton: Bites, yeah, it's it's a bit of a hotbed for, you know,
Stephen Whitton: all sorts of stuff to to happen. I'm sure that's not unique to the car
Stephen Whitton: industry. I hear a lot about that in other industries as well. But, you
Stephen Whitton: know, yeah, all of that and everything, as you say, collapsed
Stephen Whitton: at the beginning of 2020, and that was my year to go well. I
Stephen Whitton: either genuinely do go off and reinvent myself as a bus driver and
Stephen Whitton: go and do something else or think seriously about what can I do? And
Stephen Whitton: once I'd started the ball rolling with the men able, and I could see that,
Stephen Whitton: actually, yeah, this is I've got something here. This is where it started to feel
Stephen Whitton: that I was now fulfilling my purpose for the first time ever. Emanable,
Joanne Lockwood: just tell us a bit about what sparked it. I mean, you've given us a
Joanne Lockwood: bit of hint, you know, what what was the kind of the big idea? What's
Joanne Lockwood: its purpose? And who do you does it have most success with at
Joanne Lockwood: the moment? So it was it was coming from the point
Stephen Whitton: of, I know I need to I want to do something that supports
Joanne Lockwood: predominantly men in the industry, but then realizing very quickly that, actually, this isn't a
Stephen Whitton: see
Stephen Whitton: then then the industry has a big problem with recruiting in its own likeness. It
Stephen Whitton: also has a big problem with diversity and inclusion. There's lots of work going on
Stephen Whitton: in likeness. It also has a big problem with diversity and inclusion. There's lots of
Stephen Whitton: work going on in this area, but it's still a very male dominated
Stephen Whitton: masculine industry. And as a result, we're
Stephen Whitton: not attracting the right people. We're not gate we're not keeping the right
Stephen Whitton: people. So this point about mental health became
Stephen Whitton: rapidly about diversity and inclusion and inclusivity
Stephen Whitton: and equity and everything else. And I then coined a
Stephen Whitton: phrase which was, if we want to achieve diversity and inclusion
Stephen Whitton: in the automotive industry, we have to address men's mental
Stephen Whitton: health. Because what's going on there and the reason that we have homophily, which
Stephen Whitton: is the, you know, recruiting in your own likeness, the reason that
Stephen Whitton: we have that is that there are an awful lot of men who have progressed
Stephen Whitton: into senior positions, and out of fear or
Stephen Whitton: lack of confidence or low self esteem or whatever it is, what they
Stephen Whitton: do because they don't wanna take a risk and they don't wanna put their own
Stephen Whitton: situation in jeopardy, what they end up doing is they continue
Stephen Whitton: to recruit people who look, sound, and act like them. So
Stephen Whitton: someone comes along who's a bit different, a bit quirky,
Stephen Whitton: doesn't look like them, hasn't got the same background, doesn't dress like them,
Stephen Whitton: whatever it might be. So that person comes Belonging, and suddenly that
Stephen Whitton: poses a, oh, that's gonna be a challenge. You know?
Stephen Whitton: Actually, what I want is somebody who can drop in the seat and get up
Stephen Whitton: to speed quickly. Now that doesn't work either because what we end up with in
Stephen Whitton: the car industry is a revolving door and people that go from business to
Stephen Whitton: business to business. And and I've said it a few Bites. We get, you know,
Stephen Whitton: a guy will go for a job and he's see, you know, he wears as
Stephen Whitton: a badge of honor the fact that he's done 18 months with that business and
Stephen Whitton: 6 months with that one and 2 years there and 3 years there. Well,
Stephen Whitton: that's not a badge of honor. That's telling that's telling you something. That's a pattern.
Stephen Whitton: So MEN ABLE set out with that initial men's mental health
Stephen Whitton: thing, rapidly became about diversity and inclusion. As
Stephen Whitton: rapidly now, we evolved that to become about mental wealth, not
Stephen Whitton: mental health, because that's about in everything around getting people to have
Stephen Whitton: the right energy and the right approach to this. And like I said, in the
Stephen Whitton: most recent few days or weeks, we're
Stephen Whitton: starting to talk more about, well, well, what brings you joy? You know, let's
Stephen Whitton: let's not focus on the dark down stuff because no one wants to talk
Stephen Whitton: about that. But let's focus on what you can do to be more positive and
Stephen Whitton: upbeat. All male or engineering or workshoppy type
Joanne Lockwood: environments or dealership environments that you described tend to be, as you
Joanne Lockwood: say, a bit filled by a monoculture, a typical
Joanne Lockwood: ordinary bloke type. And the environment can all Change
Joanne Lockwood: environments can be quite toxic. And survivor of the fittest, the alpha
Joanne Lockwood: male, and everyone sort of falling in behind. You know, you see you see the
Joanne Lockwood: stereotypes. It's it's quite a cruel environment if you're if you're
Joanne Lockwood: different. And I think, you know, maybe not maybe not today, but certainly not
Joanne Lockwood: too distant past. Being queer, being gay, being bi
Joanne Lockwood: was a was a weakness that people used to latch on. I've heard of
Joanne Lockwood: stories about people locking people in cupboards and things because they were gay
Joanne Lockwood: or, you know, in the in the all in the aim of of banter and
Joanne Lockwood: all good fun and a bit of a laugh. Oh, a 100%. I mean, I
Stephen Whitton: still hear the odd little story about it, but the the the key one is
Stephen Whitton: the microaggressions. You know, it's the questions and it's the
Stephen Whitton: comments that get aimed at at you, and I've never
Stephen Whitton: had any of that. And part of that is because I recognized
Stephen Whitton: that I was probably a part of that engine of of throwing out
Stephen Whitton: that banter, in inverted commas. But also, that
Stephen Whitton: ordinary bloke thing is actually, I see that to to effect,
Stephen Whitton: because I'll start off a talk or a conversation with a group,
Stephen Whitton: and I'll, you know, I'll just act and look and sound as I
Stephen Whitton: am. But I'll wear a pink shirt with matching
Stephen Whitton: socks and pink laces. And notice that 1 or 2
Stephen Whitton: people in the room have have clocked that and go, hang on a minute. This
Stephen Whitton: is this guy's a bit different. And then I'll flash my rainbow
Stephen Whitton: bracelet, and I'll, you know, act up being a bit camp and throw a
Stephen Whitton: few gay innuendos in there and suddenly just say to them,
Stephen Whitton: look, I'm in the most masculine environment you could be in, but I really don't
Stephen Whitton: give a shit. I don't care. You know, you can throw whatever you want
Stephen Whitton: at me, but just do not throw that banter and that stuff at
Stephen Whitton: a 17 year old person, boy or girl, who's come to work
Stephen Whitton: in your business to to to do an apprenticeship because they wanna, you
Stephen Whitton: know, work with cars. And suddenly, they find that they're in an environment
Stephen Whitton: where, you know, that conversation over coffee. Have you got a girlfriend
Stephen Whitton: then, Jamie? Come on, are you out are you out on you out on Saturday
Stephen Whitton: night? You're gonna pull a few birds? And so Jamie now can't say,
Stephen Whitton: well, no, actually, because, you know, I'm gay and I've got a boyfriend.
Stephen Whitton: Because the the environment is is too
Stephen Whitton: if it's not toxic, it's certainly not safe to to do that.
Stephen Whitton: If you are like I was, a 17, 18 year old lad who, 1,
Stephen Whitton: is questioning it, and 2, thinks this is
Stephen Whitton: this is dangerous for me to, you know, they not dangerous in a
Stephen Whitton: physical harm way, although that could be the case, but dangerous certainly
Stephen Whitton: mentally. A really tough culture to kind of overcome
Joanne Lockwood: because it's so ingrained and so part of the
Joanne Lockwood: way it is, if you like. And it's not not surprised that, you know, you
Joanne Lockwood: you almost have to fix the problem before you can change the problem. It's that
Joanne Lockwood: chicken and egg, isn't it? How do you how do you dilute the culture
Joanne Lockwood: with difference when difference is driven out? Well, you asked me at the
Stephen Whitton: beginning of of that. I was conscious. I didn't quite answer the question previously, which
Stephen Whitton: was about how what successes are we having with that. The point
Stephen Whitton: is that where we got to was that to go out there and be the
Stephen Whitton: and say, look, the culture needs to change. This is about culture. You know? And
Stephen Whitton: I've got a real it it was a great phrase used by a politician a
Stephen Whitton: few weeks ago, which is jo one likes the guy that shouts iceberg. And for
Stephen Whitton: the last 3 years, I've been that guy that's shouting iceberg,
Stephen Whitton: whilst parts of the car industry have been, well, let's just get our
Stephen Whitton: deck chairs back in the right place, you know, in an in a
Stephen Whitton: sink on a sinking ship sort of thing. And as a
Stephen Whitton: result, we're now talking about, oh, we're not recruiting the right enough people. We're not
Stephen Whitton: keeping the right people. We're not doing this. We're not doing that. So one of
Stephen Whitton: the things that I did with Men Abel was created an accreditation program
Stephen Whitton: called Well-being Winners. And what we do with that is we go in and we
Stephen Whitton: do an assessment, and we look at this from a perspective of well-being.
Stephen Whitton: Now one of my great supporters actually said that the problem you've got,
Stephen Whitton: Steve, is that you're going to a you're going to an industry
Stephen Whitton: with a solution to a problem they don't perceive they have. And I was like,
Stephen Whitton: wow. Yeah. Bites and that stuck with me because the point is what they
Stephen Whitton: do and there's a there's a charity that the industry relies on
Stephen Whitton: that's they're great. They do a great job. But what we've got is big
Stephen Whitton: companies that will happily pay big lumps of money to them every
Stephen Whitton: year and put posters on the wall saying, if, you know, if you've got a
Stephen Whitton: problem, ring this number. Or they'll have a charity
Stephen Whitton: cake sale or whatever it might be. But what they're not getting to is the
Stephen Whitton: crux of the issue that at a management level, you're still employing
Stephen Whitton: guys like me who were who are
Stephen Whitton: aggressive bullies, you know, have got take the wrong
Stephen Whitton: kind of approach, if that makes sense. Now I like to think that's
Stephen Whitton: changing, but it's not changing quickly. Yeah. I well, I've
Joanne Lockwood: I've done some work with big organizations, the
Joanne Lockwood: defense contractors and car manufacturers, and they have they have a very
Joanne Lockwood: similar problem with the the shop floor, the hourly paid as opposed to
Joanne Lockwood: salary people that that culture is is so deep and
Joanne Lockwood: so ingrained that even even now, and these big Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: these are big organizations who have major
Joanne Lockwood: DNI programs, HR teams, big corporaty type
Joanne Lockwood: environments, and they still struggle to to to to evolve the culture. I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: I said they haven't made any difference, but it's it is the iceberg yet
Joanne Lockwood: or the ship. How do you turn around the supertanker and avoid the
Joanne Lockwood: iceberg? It's you gotta stop first before you can go backwards
Joanne Lockwood: or before you can before you can maneuver. And it that's the that's the real
Joanne Lockwood: Change is it's almost generational to make some of these changes. It it it is
Joanne Lockwood: generational. And I and I've said as well that, you know, take the car industry.
Joanne Lockwood: When you're geared
Stephen Whitton: And if you are the kind of person that's grown
Stephen Whitton: up in one industry, you probably only know of 1 or 2 ways to deliver
Stephen Whitton: those objectives. And that's where we get the familiarity,
Stephen Whitton: the the the same old, same old. And, you know, very
Stephen Whitton: few people are prepared to take a bit of a risk and go, let's try
Stephen Whitton: something a bit different here. Let's try this a different way. Let's employ some different
Stephen Whitton: people. You know, I saw I was went and had a a breakfast with somebody
Stephen Whitton: the other day in a garden center, and the waitress, you know, one side of
Stephen Whitton: her hair was blue, the other side was was pink. She was wearing dungarees,
Stephen Whitton: and she had what looked like a paper clip hanging out of her ear. I
Stephen Whitton: do not and I thought to myself, she she'd be great in front of customers
Stephen Whitton: because she was wonderful with us. And I thought, I don't know any
Stephen Whitton: managers in the industry I've described that would
Stephen Whitton: go, I'm gonna employ her as a car salesperson. Especially not in the
Joanne Lockwood: premium tier, you know, the BMW, the Mercedes, the Audi, the
Joanne Lockwood: Bentley. It just wouldn't happen, would it? I hope. I hope.
Joanne Lockwood: And, yeah, she'd be Yeah. You know, she'd be brilliant. She'd be brilliant. On the
Joanne Lockwood: used car forecourt, maybe, but not on the, not in the
Joanne Lockwood: premium brands. And I I just worked with a a global
Joanne Lockwood: clothing brand. And I was at I was
Joanne Lockwood: at at the bar the night before the the main do, and people were
Joanne Lockwood: talking about their branch recruitment see. And they said, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I saw something the other way the other day. And they just weren't our
Joanne Lockwood: brand. They had this and they had that. And I thought, wow. You've you've judged
Joanne Lockwood: that personal appearance because that they didn't meet your
Joanne Lockwood: culture, your brand. I mean, you know, you argue about these brands and
Joanne Lockwood: culture fit and all these kind of things. But somehow, you have to, in order
Joanne Lockwood: to to break the mold, you have to you have to break the mold. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's that's sounds like an oxymoron. But you you have to be decisive that
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne looking for chain because you'd be surprised how many
Joanne Lockwood: customers go, wow. Well done. Fantastic. Fabulous. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. She's just like my daughter. She's just like my son. Yeah. And I
Joanne Lockwood: do do you think we we we value and and I I use the
Joanne Lockwood: phrase gifted jerk for one of a better way of describing it is that you
Joanne Lockwood: get people who are maybe top salespeople, you know, the the the jet that
Joanne Lockwood: had the king of the hill. You know, the almost invincible Joanne fire
Joanne Lockwood: them because they are they they are lifeblood. They keep the the
Joanne Lockwood: ship afloat. But they are then allowed to get away with everything they do. You
Joanne Lockwood: know, we can't see anything to them because they're they're our top salesman. And, of
Joanne Lockwood: course, as long as you give permission for that person to continue and not
Joanne Lockwood: challenge them or risk them walking, then you're never gonna break that change, are
Joanne Lockwood: you? I do you know what? I see that a lot, and I've heard that
Stephen Whitton: a lot over the years. And even recently with one of the one of the,
Stephen Whitton: you know, really progressive businesses that we're working with, They took the
Stephen Whitton: well-being winners. They're doing everything that we've asked them to do, but there's
Stephen Whitton: still an element of, see have I've got one Safety, and it
Stephen Whitton: always begins with the phrase, yes, but. Right? But, yes, but I've got
Stephen Whitton: one sales exec, one salesman who sell you know, he's got
Stephen Whitton: lots of floors, and he may not do this and do that, but he sells
Stephen Whitton: 25 cars a month. You know. And then you go, well, yeah, but what what's
Stephen Whitton: the trail of destruction that he's leaving? Because his
Stephen Whitton: customer service measurements are crap. His profitability
Stephen Whitton: is rubbish. His part exchange appraisals
Stephen Whitton: are poorly done. And, yes, he might sell
Stephen Whitton: 25 cars a month, but actually, how many potential customers
Stephen Whitton: is he pissing off in the meantime? Because he won't talk to them
Stephen Whitton: unless they're actually gonna buy a car that day. And so you're getting customers coming
Stephen Whitton: in who are not having a great experience, and they're going to shop
Stephen Whitton: somewhere else or eventually shopping somewhere on shopping online,
Stephen Whitton: you know. So it's almost an interesting thing. You you as an industry
Joanne Lockwood: have got to call that out and make an independent stand and
Joanne Lockwood: say, yeah, this this this this person isn't working, and
Joanne Lockwood: then give them a bad reference. Yeah. Yeah. But it
Stephen Whitton: it's an iceberg. I know. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwood: know. Do you know what I mean? It's it's that. And, you
Stephen Whitton: know, and I think the point about the, you know, the the lovely girl that
Stephen Whitton: that served me last week with the the blue and pink hair is that
Stephen Whitton: what will happen in if she went for a job at one of these play
Stephen Whitton: places. And I gotta see, not all, because there are a lot of very progressive
Stephen Whitton: ones that, you know, they're they're not I'm tarring them all with the same brush.
Stephen Whitton: It's not all the same. But the vast majority would look at her, and
Stephen Whitton: they would they wouldn't embrace the difference.
Stephen Whitton: They'd see the deficit, which is a phrase that I think Harvard used around this
Stephen Whitton: whole thing about DEI, and I love that. I just think that is so true
Stephen Whitton: that we don't embrace what's different and unique and
Stephen Whitton: beautiful about this person. All we see is there's a Decaf
Stephen Whitton: deficit. see, but I can't put her in front of customers because they they
Stephen Whitton: will make a judgement. No, they won't. You know? The 90 year old
Stephen Whitton: bloke who comes in and she doesn't look anything like he's used
Stephen Whitton: to, well, they're gonna if they're gonna make a judgment, they're gonna make a judgment
Stephen Whitton: about anything. So they're gonna make a judgment about a girl with pink
Stephen Whitton: or blue hair. Equally, they're gonna make a judgment about a 57 year old
Stephen Whitton: guy guy with pink socks and pink laces, which is why I do
Stephen Whitton: it. When I when I I first came out,
Joanne Lockwood: going back to 2007, so Bites 7 or 8 years ago,
Joanne Lockwood: I well, I was scratching around Belonging for some some income as
Joanne Lockwood: you do. You first go out on your own. I was, one of my
Joanne Lockwood: network called out for Belonging for an associate who could help them with
Joanne Lockwood: this workplace ergonomics. You know, where you you measure the chairs and you
Joanne Lockwood: get people to sit at their desk right, and you can lower things and raise
Joanne Lockwood: things, get the right Change. And she wanted to build up a little
Joanne Lockwood: team of people who could do the the the ergonomic
Joanne Lockwood: assessments for her. So she put a shout out on Facebook or our network, and
Joanne Lockwood: I said, oh, I'd have to give that a go. I fancy a bit of
Joanne Lockwood: that. And a few weeks later, she wrote back and said, Jo, could we have
Joanne Lockwood: a coffee? I was, oh, great. So we had see evidence coffee and she said,
Joanne Lockwood: Jo, it's it's not me. It's not me. I I I I think you're great,
Joanne Lockwood: but I'm worried about my customers. What will they think of you if you turn
Joanne Lockwood: up? I went, oh, what do you mean? She said, well, you're Joanne. And what
Joanne Lockwood: if they what if they they they won't they won't tell me that that that
Joanne Lockwood: there's a problem. They'll just they'll just stop buying from me because of
Joanne Lockwood: you. And I and I said, well, that's in your
Joanne Lockwood: head, not in their head. And I I coined this phrase, Bites discrimination
Joanne Lockwood: by proxy. It's not me. It's what it's what other people will think that it
Joanne Lockwood: reflect on me. Actually, it's your own insecurity. And I said,
Joanne Lockwood: well, how about I strip that around? What if they go, wow, you've got Jo.
Joanne Lockwood: She's amazing. You've got trans people as well. We've got queer people. see
Joanne Lockwood: you you're brilliant. You sent me into a university. You sent me into a public
Joanne Lockwood: sector. You see the great DI policy. So you you just frame me
Joanne Lockwood: as a as a as a challenge, not as an asset, someone who could potentially
Joanne Lockwood: turn customers on and not off. And see was so blocked
Joanne Lockwood: by the what will people think of her, because it reflected on her.
Joanne Lockwood: I think a lot of DNI hires, you can trace
Joanne Lockwood: back to that. If I hire a queer bloke, well, they think I'm queer
Joanne Lockwood: type thing, isn't it? Sort of, you know, what what yeah. What's wrong with you
Joanne Lockwood: if you hire someone who's queer with big socks? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Stephen Whitton: And I'd you know, I still see elements of that,
Stephen Whitton: pockets of that. I mean, in the last year or so, as you know, because
Stephen Whitton: I've talked to you about some of this, I've done some bits and and some
Stephen Whitton: events and some keynotes and emceeing some conferences, where
Stephen Whitton: I've been I've been very open about Bites, you know. I talk openly about
Stephen Whitton: my TikTok handle that I created was the bisexual granddad,
Stephen Whitton: you know. Well, some people will like that, some won't. You know that I use
Stephen Whitton: a bit of innuendo occasionally, and some of that's a bit close to Julian
Stephen Whitton: Clary esque type of innuendo. And I have a
Stephen Whitton: very firm view that if I use an innuendo and someone takes that to mean
Stephen Whitton: have a smutty or dirty meaning, well, that's in their mind, not mine,
Stephen Whitton: you know? And and so that's that's got me more and more to
Stephen Whitton: a place of thinking, well, at the end of the day, I kinda screwed up
Stephen Whitton: the life that I had. That was on a trajectory to be looking
Stephen Whitton: and feeling everything like a typically successful,
Stephen Whitton: you know, upper upper working class family kind of
Stephen Whitton: life. Screwed that up, lost the people closest to
Stephen Whitton: me, went down that dark route of I could just throw it all in
Stephen Whitton: if I want to, and got to a place of like, well, what choice have
Stephen Whitton: I got left now? You know, as I as I wrote on a post a
Stephen Whitton: couple of years ago, I've got no more f's to give when
Stephen Whitton: I'd completely run out of money and everything else. I ran out of
Stephen Whitton: those f's to give. You know what I mean? Right? So
Stephen Whitton: and that's where I'm I've built back up from and gone, well, now my mission
Stephen Whitton: is to spread joy one smile at a time. You know,
Stephen Whitton: if somebody said to me, oh, you're wearing pink socks and pink laces, I go,
Stephen Whitton: oh, yeah. No. They're great, aren't they? And then they go with the shirt. And
Stephen Whitton: I won't show you the color of my pants, you know, and have a little
Stephen Whitton: bit of Joanne, suddenly went all camp there when I did that, you know, Bites,
Stephen Whitton: and, and I'll make a thing of it. And and what it's done, actually, what
Stephen Whitton: I'm getting is, is a great response from people. And, actually,
Stephen Whitton: particularly in the motor trade, and I'm I'm becoming quite known for it.
Stephen Whitton: And if that is what I have to do as an ordinary
Stephen Whitton: bloke to give other people permission to be
Stephen Whitton: themselves, And that gradually, one smile at a time,
Stephen Whitton: gets joy back into the industry and back into what we're doing and gets them
Stephen Whitton: recruiting the right people, keeping the right people, then, you know,
Stephen Whitton: I'm probably not gonna achieve it in my lifetime, but it's it's certainly not
Stephen Whitton: a bad place to be on the journey compared to where I was.
Joanne Lockwood: It's extremely stressful living your life by other people's rules.
Joanne Lockwood: First of all, there's so many rules out there that people different people will have
Joanne Lockwood: different rules. And when you're covering, masking, hiding,
Joanne Lockwood: suppressing who you are, it's extremely exhausting. You know, we talked about yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: You touched on psychological safety earlier. You talked on the you know, we talked about
Joanne Lockwood: bringing your whole see to work, these kind of things. When you're when you're having
Joanne Lockwood: to be this other person for for other people's convenience,
Joanne Lockwood: for their comfortability. Bites it's a dark place, and it's it's a
Joanne Lockwood: no win. And I I I always love the quote that, Chris Evans, the,
Joanne Lockwood: the the BBC broadcaster who he popped on to Top Gear for a while. He
Joanne Lockwood: always said, you know, he's you gotta be Marmite. Half the world will love you
Joanne Lockwood: and half the world will hate you. The people who love you really, really
Joanne Lockwood: love you. Mhmm. And I I always think this is a great way
Joanne Lockwood: of of only getting inquiries people who want to do business with
Joanne Lockwood: you. Yeah. True. If half the world don't like me or don't
Joanne Lockwood: know what I stand for, who I am, that's great. I I don't have to
Joanne Lockwood: listen to them. I don't have to have that lecture. Yeah. Whereas people
Joanne Lockwood: engage with me love me for who I am, and I so I I often
Joanne Lockwood: say I'm very privileged that I go go through with the world as a as
Joanne Lockwood: a trans woman. University meeting people who I get on really
Joanne Lockwood: well with, who have a lot of time for me. Mhmm. So I think polarizing
Joanne Lockwood: the audience is is a good thing. I think being being unashamedly
Joanne Lockwood: you with your pink socks, with your with whatever color underpants you're wearing
Joanne Lockwood: that day on the inside, maybe not on the outside. You
Joanne Lockwood: you you get more work. And I I wouldn't you rather have work
Joanne Lockwood: for who you are rather than for who they want you to be? Oh, 100%.
Stephen Whitton: I mean, I I got invited to, an event about 18
Stephen Whitton: months ago, and it was at the Royal Air Force
Stephen Whitton: Club in Piccadilly. Now I thought, right, this is gonna be like stepping
Stephen Whitton: back in time. Right? And I I did have at one point a hankering to
Stephen Whitton: go in the Royal Air Force and never did. Bites, anyway, along came the memo,
Stephen Whitton: you know, with the the requirements, you know, here's how you, you know,
Stephen Whitton: how you dress and all the rest of it. And it was very, very strict.
Stephen Whitton: It meant lounge, lounge suits, and the
Stephen Whitton: tie must be worn at all times in the building. So I looked at it,
Stephen Whitton: and I thought, do you know what? At one point in my life, in my
Stephen Whitton: career, I had probably 200 ties in my
Stephen Whitton: collection. And I was known for wearing ties
Stephen Whitton: that were, you know, a bit out there and all the rest of it. And
Stephen Whitton: I thought, I am not gonna go to this event in a gray suit with
Stephen Whitton: a gray pinstripe tie and just look and sound like everyone
Stephen Whitton: else. So I found the loudest, brightest
Stephen Whitton: blue and pink paisley tie that I could find,
Stephen Whitton: all of that. And I go, yeah. Look at see rainbow badge I'm wearing on
Stephen Whitton: this on this jacket as well.
Stephen Whitton: And, funnily enough, I was it was accepted in the end, but it it was
Stephen Whitton: almost a bit of a statement on my part that, you know, if I have
Stephen Whitton: to abide by your rules, I'm gonna do that in my own way. Mhmm. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I I look back, and do you think all these dress codes, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: all the as you say, black tie, white tie, wing
Joanne Lockwood: collar, buff and down collars, all these kind of things, and patent shoes,
Joanne Lockwood: oxford. Yeah. All this kind of yeah. You think about all this and you
Joanne Lockwood: think, so as a transfer, what's my dress code? You know? I'm I'm already I'm
Joanne Lockwood: already turning up an address. I mean, that breaks half the mold and half the
Joanne Lockwood: rules that you you were imagining. So I didn't think,
Joanne Lockwood: Wellbeing, you know, I'm gonna say the f word. Yeah. Fuck it. You know, who
Joanne Lockwood: cares? You know? What's the point in trying to conform to a rule that I
Joanne Lockwood: don't fit into in the 1st place? So Yeah. Yeah. But yep. Bites
Joanne Lockwood: it takes I don't know. Takes certain
Joanne Lockwood: maturity or or certain stage of your life where you are able to just
Joanne Lockwood: as you say, there are no more f's to give in this situation where you've
Joanne Lockwood: plateaued and found that you, and that you're prepared to just
Joanne Lockwood: be that you without without who cares who judges you now? I
Joanne Lockwood: I don't judge me what you like. I I don't have to listen to your
Joanne Lockwood: opinion or even respect it. I just go find that that's it says
Joanne Lockwood: more about you than it does about me. Yeah. But you get to that stage
Joanne Lockwood: in life where where you can live that way, can't you? And it was taking
Joanne Lockwood: you a while to realize that. Yeah. And I think anyone who who, you know,
Stephen Whitton: we're I think I'm a bit older than you, aren't I, but we're similar age
Stephen Whitton: group, aren't we? And, you know, anyone who's grown up in
Stephen Whitton: the areas that we did, you know, you grew up being compliant to that, you
Stephen Whitton: know, looking, acting, sounding in a certain way based on the people
Stephen Whitton: around you. And, you know, and and like you say, I've I've, you know, I
Stephen Whitton: made a Belonging out of that. I made a lifetime out of doing exactly what
Stephen Whitton: I thought was expected. And, you know, if I have to wear a suit and
Stephen Whitton: I have to wear a tie, then I'm gonna wear something that no one else
Stephen Whitton: is wearing that looks a bit more flamboyant than anyone else's.
Stephen Whitton: And I always did that. And Bites you see, now I'm just at the nah.
Stephen Whitton: Just do you know what? All that time spent wondering what other people were thinking
Stephen Whitton: and who was judging me. Well, how did that turn out? Well, it didn't. I
Stephen Whitton: lost everything. So now I'm at the well, I am
Stephen Whitton: what I am. If you don't like that, jog on.
Joanne Lockwood: You talked about bringing joy to the world and, how
Joanne Lockwood: that is kind of your new new passion. Yep. As you said, saving
Joanne Lockwood: the world once a while at a time. How do you define joy?
Joanne Lockwood: What does joy mean to you then? Well, do you know what? I bounced this
Stephen Whitton: around a few friends over the weekend, and I had one one my best friend
Stephen Whitton: came back and said, oh, see said, I'm not sure about the word joy or
Stephen Whitton: joyful, he said. Because it come comes up with words of
Stephen Whitton: connotations of sort of I I guess see was getting that sort of a sexual
Stephen Whitton: nature and, you know, passion and all of that. And I was like, wow.
Stephen Whitton: That that works even more for me. I think joy is
Stephen Whitton: about, you know, doing well, doing what makes you Happen, you know, doing
Stephen Whitton: what makes you happy. And it doesn't matter even if your circumstances are
Stephen Whitton: such that, you know, financially, you have to be in a certain
Stephen Whitton: place or you have to be in a certain job. You know, you can still
Stephen Whitton: find ways of of having joy or giving joy
Stephen Whitton: or participating in joy with other people and, or
Stephen Whitton: whatever it might be. So, you know, I see people leaving what
Stephen Whitton: might be a fairly mundane job and then going and, you know, coaching a a
Stephen Whitton: child's football team in the evening, you know, and they do that because it gives
Stephen Whitton: them immense joy. You and I are involved in the Professional Speaking
Stephen Whitton: Association and, you know, as as much as that may have its challenges at
Stephen Whitton: times, it gives us immense joy. We're around people
Stephen Whitton: who give freely and generously of of of the joy in their
Stephen Whitton: lives. And, yeah, I mean, for me, I I made that commitment to
Stephen Whitton: myself a year ago to only do what gives me joy.
Stephen Whitton: So if you're gonna ask me to turn up and, you know, to an event,
Stephen Whitton: and you're then gonna start telling me what I can wear, what I can say,
Stephen Whitton: what I can do, how I have to have to act, that is going
Stephen Whitton: to suck the joy out of see, and I'm
Stephen Whitton: gonna get to a point where I'm like, I don't do I really wanna do
Stephen Whitton: this? Yeah. Yeah. No. No. You no. You're
Joanne Lockwood: right. I always think about joy as being words are popping into my head
Joanne Lockwood: off, freedom. And what do I mean by freedom? It's not unbounded
Joanne Lockwood: freedom, but it's it's it's freedom within broad
Joanne Lockwood: parameters. And I when I was going through my my
Joanne Lockwood: my exploration and journey and coming out, I talked about the
Joanne Lockwood: concept of cage, Safety park, and Serengeti.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. So the Cage is where you're living under see of acid rules. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: you're by permission, having to behave, having to live in that restricted
Joanne Lockwood: environment. Serengeti is where you're you're off piste. You're living in in the wild, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, trying to fight fight for your space in the water or not getting eaten
Joanne Lockwood: by a lion or something or risk of poachers killing you or
Joanne Lockwood: cutting your tusks off, whatever it may be. And the safari park is kind of
Joanne Lockwood: Bites of half and half where you've got fences, but they're miles apart.
Joanne Lockwood: There's no predators in your cage if you like. Someone chucks meat
Joanne Lockwood: over and you can you can feast on that or whatever, whatever you eat. And
Joanne Lockwood: you've got you've got mates, friends, and people to keep you happy.
Joanne Lockwood: And so you but you've you're the as I say, the fence is so far
Joanne Lockwood: apart, you don't bump into them. Or if you do, it does it they
Joanne Lockwood: don't seem that restrictive anymore because you've got plenty of other ground. So my
Joanne Lockwood: joy was finding my safari park, and that's the that's the analogy I used, was
Joanne Lockwood: to escape the cage. Live within societal
Joanne Lockwood: rules broadly, because I don't wanna be anarchic and go and live in the
Joanne Lockwood: wild, Mhmm. And finding this safari park where I could coexist
Joanne Lockwood: with others with huge great fences around, but
Joanne Lockwood: no but no but no perceived barriers to the way I wanted to live. And
Joanne Lockwood: jo I completely understand your your concept of of of joy.
Joanne Lockwood: And I also Happen discovered sufficiency as a term as well.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't need everything. I don't need to acquire
Joanne Lockwood: bigger, faster, thicker, whatever it may be, whatever analogy.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm looking for sufficient sufficient resources
Joanne Lockwood: food, money, comfort, love, house, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: see, to enable that that joy of freedom in my safari park, if
Joanne Lockwood: you like. So, yeah, it it's reevaluating what's important, I think.
Joanne Lockwood: The earliest stage of my life was on this big up climb where you you
Joanne Lockwood: want stuff, don't you? You go on bigger. I want to be impressive people with
Joanne Lockwood: all this stuff. And now I just joy is freedom and sufficiency for
Joanne Lockwood: me. Yeah. I love that. I'm probably gonna nick that Safety Park analogy if I
Stephen Whitton: may, but, Published a blog. You're welcome to to read it.
Stephen Whitton: When when I I to see, I poked this word joyful out to a few
Stephen Whitton: friends, and loads of them came back as, oh my god. That is so you.
Stephen Whitton: Yes. It's very much what you're about. But my my best friend who I I
Stephen Whitton: trust, you know, more than anyone came back and he went, yeah. I'm not sure
Stephen Whitton: about the word joyful. It means bliss, pleasure, peace, and passion.
Stephen Whitton: So I wrote I just wrote back and went, exactly.
Stephen Whitton: So he wasn't sure about the word joyful, but he answered the question for me.
Stephen Whitton: He was like, well, it's exactly what I'm getting at. And, I mean, I've I've
Stephen Whitton: my exam an example I would use is that two and a half years ago,
Stephen Whitton: I moved out of a very nice, large, detached house in
Stephen Whitton: a very nice area, you know, post the divorce, and
Stephen Whitton: moved into a a small rented flat, you know, that overlooks a car
Stephen Whitton: wash. And I remember when I was back in the house
Stephen Whitton: and we were there 20 years in that house, every Christmas would be
Stephen Whitton: the usual sort of let's go around and give the neighbors their Christmas cards.
Stephen Whitton: And, you know, if you happen to catch 1 in the street as they were
Stephen Whitton: coming home and parking their car, you know, you'd go to stop and have a
Stephen Whitton: bit of a conversation. Joanne
Stephen Whitton: this, or I'm going see, or I've gotta run here, or whatever. And I never
Stephen Whitton: really noticed that before until I came here to this block of flats
Stephen Whitton: where there are a fairly transient population of people
Stephen Whitton: coming in and out renting. It's it's a lovely block of flats, beautiful flats, nice
Stephen Whitton: area, but it's got a good proportion of renters. I moved
Stephen Whitton: in here and on in on the 1st October, and on the
Stephen Whitton: 1st December, one of my neighbors knocked on the door and gave me
Stephen Whitton: a Christmas card and a bottle of wine, and she came in and we sat
Stephen Whitton: and had a chat for 2 hours. And I thought, in 20 years living in
Stephen Whitton: that really nice area where we were all competing over who's, you
Stephen Whitton: know, who's got the cleanest curtains, who drives the nice nicest car,
Stephen Whitton: who went on the best holiday, didn't have any of that, moved to this place
Stephen Whitton: that's a lot more grounded and a lot more people not competing for for
Stephen Whitton: attention, and and everyone's just looking out for each other. It was lovely.
Stephen Whitton: So hence, I'm I'm in on the safari park thing. I I
Joanne Lockwood: wonder that I'm just curious. This is me just checking
Joanne Lockwood: my bias about it. So the people you sent the the request
Joanne Lockwood: for how does jo sound to you, were they mainly
Joanne Lockwood: male identifying? No. Actually, an well, no. Just one of them
Stephen Whitton: was. I just wonder, because is there a connotation where where men
Joanne Lockwood: aren't allowed to use the word joy? Is is it is it a feminine
Joanne Lockwood: connotation? That's a good point. That's a really good point. Yeah, possibly.
Stephen Whitton: But it was my my business mentor on Saturday morning, actually, who
Stephen Whitton: said to me that he sees that the thread that runs
Stephen Whitton: between my three the three elements of my business, see
Stephen Whitton: men, Abel, me as a speaker, me as an MC, the thread that runs through
Stephen Whitton: those are great experiences. Now he said, I'm not
Stephen Whitton: overly keen on the word great. You have to think of another word for great,
Stephen Whitton: and it was me that came up with the word joyful. So for me, that
Stephen Whitton: that's the thread that joins all 3 of them together. So whether you're
Stephen Whitton: an employer looking to up the ante on well-being in your business, that's
Stephen Whitton: about creating joyful experiences. Hiring me as a speaker
Stephen Whitton: is about inspiring people to have great experiences or as
Stephen Whitton: an emcee creating a great event. And when I put that into a summary
Stephen Whitton: and sent that out to all my friends, interesting that most of my friends are
Stephen Whitton: women, isn't it? Which I it's fascinating. But anyway, I don't know if there's anything
Stephen Whitton: there. But when I sent that all out, yes, you're right. The only one who
Stephen Whitton: came back and questioned joyful was my male best friend.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I I quite relate to the word. And, essentially,
Joanne Lockwood: you you you talk about joyful experiences. I mean, I I my
Joanne Lockwood: mantra or the my kind of thing I I I promote is
Joanne Lockwood: positive people experiences. So, yeah, it's not great. I use I use the word
Joanne Lockwood: positive, and it's around creating that positive
Joanne Lockwood: experience of interacting with me, interacting with your customers,
Joanne Lockwood: interacting with your potential candidates in the hiring process,
Joanne Lockwood: your stakeholders, whatever it may be. So, yeah, it's making sure that every
Joanne Lockwood: interaction you have from a people perspective is positive.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. You know, taking that analogy to you, then we're
Joanne Lockwood: joyful. And I think that's that's a really positive well, that's a
Joanne Lockwood: joyful way of looking at the world. Yeah. Wellbeing one
Stephen Whitton: thing I did, I had to run a conference Joanne an awards night,
Stephen Whitton: actually, before Christmas. And, one of the little things I do with my
Stephen Whitton: introduction is it involves a bit of confetti and glitter.
Stephen Whitton: And the event Happen, I met up with one of them for lunch last
Stephen Whitton: week, and and she said to me she said, you know, the hotel
Stephen Whitton: were cursing you that and still are because
Stephen Whitton: everywhere they look, they keep finding your glitter and your
Stephen Whitton: confetti. And I said, I know. Even on the diet, although I just threw a
Stephen Whitton: handful of it up on stage, it went everywhere. It just seemed to find its
Stephen Whitton: way into the gents, into the all over the stairs, and so on and so
Stephen Whitton: on. So I said, well, that's what happens when you spread a little sparkle in
Stephen Whitton: a little stardust. Right? Who knows where it's gonna end up?
Stephen Whitton: Doesn't mean I'm gonna stop doing it. Well, I've seen your MC
Joanne Lockwood: gig, and I've seen you on stage, and you always sort of reach into your
Joanne Lockwood: suit pocket or your trouser pocket, and you pull out some sparkles and
Joanne Lockwood: and cast them. And do do you do you walk through life with glitter and
Joanne Lockwood: sparkles in your pocket just in case? Well, I more more and more times,
Stephen Whitton: I think to myself I should do, but there's gonna be a place where I'm
Stephen Whitton: gonna do that, and it's, you know, it's gonna land in someone's coffee, or
Stephen Whitton: it's I'm gonna hack somebody off. But, yeah.
Stephen Whitton: It wouldn't be a bad thing, actually. It was what a great experiment to try.
Stephen Whitton: I mean, try it on the tube or on a train or Yeah. Maybe if
Joanne Lockwood: you've got biodegradable sort of, you know, modern wedding
Joanne Lockwood: confetti sort of thing that doesn't stain and doesn't, Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Doesn't damage the planet or something maybe. Yeah. No. No. All of this is. The
Stephen Whitton: only thing I would say is that my flat is also full of it because,
Stephen Whitton: obviously, where I've done exactly what you've said and put it in the pockets of
Stephen Whitton: trousers and jeans and so on is that I've now see to have it everywhere.
Stephen Whitton: So it it it finds its way into the washing machine and
Stephen Whitton: under furniture. It's bad enough if you leave a
Joanne Lockwood: tissue in the pocket of a of a dress Oh, I know. And wash that.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, imagine, yeah, sort of having sparkles in the pocket of all your trousers.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That's gonna be a real colorful experience. Yeah. When
Stephen Whitton: you shake that out after taking out the see blow dryer or whatever, it's yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: see, it's been absolutely fascinating. I mean, I'm I'm glad we're friends, and I'm I'm
Joanne Lockwood: glad we get to see Dua on a regular basis. So it's been an honor
Joanne Lockwood: to have you on the show today and hear about you bringing joy. And you
Joanne Lockwood: may say you're just an ordinary bird. I don't think you're an ordinary bird. You
Joanne Lockwood: you you Happen done extraordinary things. You've overcome extraordinary
Joanne Lockwood: challenges in your life, and I'm sure you still will. And and you've
Joanne Lockwood: done that with a smile and with a purpose to bring joy. So
Joanne Lockwood: thank you so much. How Joanne people get hold of you? Well well, thank you,
Stephen Whitton: Veer. It's very kind words as well, and the feeling's mutual, Joanne. You know, I
Stephen Whitton: think the world of yours, you know. So, thank you for giving me the opportunity.
Stephen Whitton: But, yeah, if anyone wants to get in touch, I'm all over LinkedIn,
Stephen Whitton: spreading stardust all over that platform at stephenjwitton.
Stephen Whitton: That's Stephen with a "ph", and Whitten is W-H-I-T-T-O-N. My
Stephen Whitton: website is https://menable.org. That's menable.org.
Stephen Whitton: Or my main website, which needs to change because it doesn't reflect the
Stephen Whitton: sparkly stuff we've just been talking about, is, stephenjwitton.co.uk.
Stephen Whitton: So, I'm very up for having chats and sprinkling a bit of
Stephen Whitton: stardust on whoever needs it. Thank you. As we
Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my
Joanne Lockwood: deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing
Joanne Lockwood: community, driving real change. Share this journey with
Joanne Lockwood: friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices
Joanne Lockwood: that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a
Joanne Lockwood: vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.