WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.690 --> 00:00:11.434 Welcome to inclusion bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.482 --> 00:00:15.322 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.386 --> 00:00:18.814 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.852 --> 00:00:21.962 inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.026 --> 00:00:25.734 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly it takes to create 6 00:00:25.772 --> 00:00:29.014 a world where everyone not only belongs, but 7 00:00:29.052 --> 00:00:32.726 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as 8 00:00:32.748 --> 00:00:36.482 we uncover the unseen, change the status quo 9 00:00:36.626 --> 00:00:40.202 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.336 --> 00:00:43.958 Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.054 --> 00:00:47.178 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.344 --> 00:00:50.780 reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.090 --> 00:00:54.702 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach 14 00:00:54.756 --> 00:00:58.510 out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:58.580 --> 00:01:02.414 to share your insights or to join me on the 16 00:01:02.452 --> 00:01:06.210 show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. 17 00:01:06.360 --> 00:01:09.730 It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with 18 00:01:09.800 --> 00:01:11.250 inclusion bites. 19 00:01:16.330 --> 00:01:19.558 And today is episode 107 with the 20 00:01:19.564 --> 00:01:23.062 title Voices Unleashed. And I have the 21 00:01:23.116 --> 00:01:26.150 absolute honour and privilege to welcome Helen Joy. 22 00:01:26.490 --> 00:01:30.246 Helen is a management development specialist and when I asked Helen 23 00:01:30.278 --> 00:01:33.994 to describe her superpower, she said it's her ability to 24 00:01:34.032 --> 00:01:37.514 build rapport and inspire people to make small changes 25 00:01:37.712 --> 00:01:41.546 that create big impacts. Hello, Helen, welcome to 26 00:01:41.568 --> 00:01:45.214 the show. Hello, Joanne, and thank you so much for having me 27 00:01:45.252 --> 00:01:49.054 on this beautifully cloudy, Grey Friday. It is great 28 00:01:49.092 --> 00:01:52.798 to have some sunshine in my life by spending some time with you. 29 00:01:52.884 --> 00:01:56.526 I know someone put on LinkedIn earlier. What was your ideal 30 00:01:56.558 --> 00:01:59.954 theme tune for the weekend? And I put, here comes the 31 00:01:59.992 --> 00:02:03.746 sun. And I thought then, Rob, it's a bit early in the year, we're only 32 00:02:03.768 --> 00:02:06.760 in February, but I can only 33 00:02:07.770 --> 00:02:11.270 dream. Yes, it's coming. It's coming just a little bit away. 34 00:02:11.420 --> 00:02:14.694 So, Helen, Voices Unleashed. Tell me 35 00:02:14.732 --> 00:02:17.442 more. Well, in most 36 00:02:17.516 --> 00:02:20.826 organisations, there is this mid 37 00:02:20.928 --> 00:02:24.778 level of managers who so often 38 00:02:24.864 --> 00:02:28.266 have the hardest job in the business. They are 39 00:02:28.448 --> 00:02:31.946 filtering messages that come down from above. They don't get to make the 40 00:02:31.968 --> 00:02:35.694 decisions. The decisions are made up there in those ivory towers of C 41 00:02:35.732 --> 00:02:38.958 suites, and they're cascaded down through varying layers of 42 00:02:38.964 --> 00:02:42.814 management. And then they come down to those mid managers who then 43 00:02:42.852 --> 00:02:46.450 have to transfer that knowledge and that change 44 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:50.194 or whatever's happening in the organisation to the people on the front 45 00:02:50.232 --> 00:02:53.682 line doing the role. They then have to absorb back 46 00:02:53.736 --> 00:02:57.414 up all of the things that might be wrong with that 47 00:02:57.452 --> 00:03:00.694 particular choice of direction, all the issues, all those 48 00:03:00.732 --> 00:03:04.482 things. But quite often, those middle managers 49 00:03:04.626 --> 00:03:07.926 are never heard, they're never asked, they're never listened 50 00:03:07.958 --> 00:03:11.514 to, they're never given the opportunity to 51 00:03:11.632 --> 00:03:15.018 actually share their knowledge and experience of what's happening 52 00:03:15.184 --> 00:03:18.902 and how things can be changed and adapted 53 00:03:19.046 --> 00:03:22.302 and for me, it's about making sure that those middle 54 00:03:22.356 --> 00:03:26.206 managers have the skills, the knowledge and the 55 00:03:26.228 --> 00:03:30.014 confidence to use those voices, to make sure 56 00:03:30.052 --> 00:03:33.806 that what's happening in a business is actually for 57 00:03:33.828 --> 00:03:37.634 the benefit of everybody across the business. So 58 00:03:37.672 --> 00:03:41.438 that's one side of it. It's that making sure that they're heard, but it's 59 00:03:41.454 --> 00:03:45.250 also about those managers being able to create environments 60 00:03:45.610 --> 00:03:49.158 where their teams can genuinely thrive, where 61 00:03:49.244 --> 00:03:53.046 everybody in their team has got that sense of 62 00:03:53.068 --> 00:03:56.694 psychological safety, so they know that 63 00:03:56.732 --> 00:03:59.994 they can be who they are, they can bring their 64 00:04:00.112 --> 00:04:03.914 own uniqueness into that team and they 65 00:04:03.952 --> 00:04:07.786 are valued exactly for that. And everybody's voice in the 66 00:04:07.808 --> 00:04:11.646 organisation then gets heard, because nothing changes without all 67 00:04:11.668 --> 00:04:15.502 of those different perspectives. Your intro 68 00:04:15.556 --> 00:04:18.846 talks about challenging the status quo and that's what we 69 00:04:18.948 --> 00:04:22.606 need in organisations at the moment. And the status quo isn't going to 70 00:04:22.628 --> 00:04:26.226 change unless we listen to everybody, unless we get all of those 71 00:04:26.248 --> 00:04:29.794 different perspectives, all of those different thoughts and ideas and ways of 72 00:04:29.832 --> 00:04:33.634 doing things. So getting to hear those voices is 73 00:04:33.672 --> 00:04:37.206 so important. And that begins with building the confidence of those managers to be able 74 00:04:37.228 --> 00:04:40.786 to push those messages back up the chain and make sure that they're listened 75 00:04:40.818 --> 00:04:44.470 to. I've been a middle manager at the beginning of my career, 76 00:04:44.890 --> 00:04:48.234 probably without experience, without 77 00:04:48.352 --> 00:04:51.926 support. I think one of the challenges I find in organisations 78 00:04:51.958 --> 00:04:55.786 is we tend to promote people who are good at their 79 00:04:55.808 --> 00:04:59.318 jo, not fantastic at leading, inspiring 80 00:04:59.494 --> 00:05:03.182 and I'd probably use the term leader rather than manager. I always 81 00:05:03.236 --> 00:05:07.006 believe that you manage staff but you lead people. So I 82 00:05:07.028 --> 00:05:10.734 prefer that. I think we often promote people into those 83 00:05:10.772 --> 00:05:14.606 roles without the support, without developing them and 84 00:05:14.628 --> 00:05:18.306 say because they are great at what they do and they're looking for a 85 00:05:18.328 --> 00:05:22.174 pay rise or career development without actually putting them on the career development 86 00:05:22.222 --> 00:05:25.966 path first, or even surround them in cotton 87 00:05:25.998 --> 00:05:29.766 wool in their first year to help them develop, and we see 88 00:05:29.788 --> 00:05:33.414 that so often. So that's, for me, where the challenge in organisations lies is 89 00:05:33.452 --> 00:05:37.218 investing properly in that lower level, mid manager tier 90 00:05:37.314 --> 00:05:40.426 and without just expect them to pick it up and getting it right all the 91 00:05:40.448 --> 00:05:43.846 time. That is the biggest challenge 92 00:05:44.038 --> 00:05:47.690 in organisations. There's a statistic around 93 00:05:47.760 --> 00:05:51.478 82% of managers are what we're 94 00:05:51.494 --> 00:05:55.286 called accidental managers. There's a Gallup stat. 95 00:05:55.398 --> 00:05:58.686 I'm terrible for remembering where these stats come from. I can remember the stats, can 96 00:05:58.708 --> 00:06:02.538 never remember exactly who to credit them back to, but I've seen it in lots 97 00:06:02.554 --> 00:06:06.226 and lots of places and it's that 82% of accidental managers, so 98 00:06:06.248 --> 00:06:09.774 exactly, as you say, they're great at their jobs, but that doesn't 99 00:06:09.822 --> 00:06:13.666 make them instantly great at getting the best out of 100 00:06:13.688 --> 00:06:17.094 those people. And quite often they're not. At that 101 00:06:17.132 --> 00:06:20.694 point, they could be with the right support, with the right 102 00:06:20.732 --> 00:06:24.040 development, but businesses just don't invest 103 00:06:24.490 --> 00:06:28.294 in that. They seem to expect that people, you instantly give them that job 104 00:06:28.332 --> 00:06:31.946 title and suddenly they're bespoked with that job title and all the skills and 105 00:06:31.968 --> 00:06:35.414 abilities to do that. And they invest lots and lots at senior 106 00:06:35.462 --> 00:06:39.082 level in the C suite, in executive coaching and things like that. 107 00:06:39.216 --> 00:06:43.018 Lots of technical organisations invest huge amounts of money in technical 108 00:06:43.114 --> 00:06:46.730 skills and abilities and inductions, but they completely forget 109 00:06:46.810 --> 00:06:50.334 that the biggest asset in their business is their people. And if their 110 00:06:50.372 --> 00:06:53.870 people aren't being led, managed, 111 00:06:53.950 --> 00:06:57.762 supported by people with the right skills to do that, that will 112 00:06:57.816 --> 00:07:01.182 always be the blocker from any significant 113 00:07:01.246 --> 00:07:04.930 growth, productivity development for that organisation. And 114 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:08.558 you create environments where people are not happy, and when people 115 00:07:08.584 --> 00:07:12.342 aren't happy, it impacts on every area of their life. It means that they 116 00:07:12.476 --> 00:07:16.294 don't want to be there, they underperform, they eventually leave, and 117 00:07:16.412 --> 00:07:20.218 you end up with this constant cycle that 118 00:07:20.304 --> 00:07:23.786 just by improving the skills and qualities of your 119 00:07:23.808 --> 00:07:27.386 managers, people want to work with you, they want to stay there, 120 00:07:27.568 --> 00:07:31.254 they want to be. We've all had those managers and leaders 121 00:07:31.302 --> 00:07:34.942 that we would do anything for. And when you question people about 122 00:07:34.996 --> 00:07:38.734 that, because I always talk about that when I'm doing a management programme, we always 123 00:07:38.772 --> 00:07:42.606 start by talking about leadership and management and that your job title might be 124 00:07:42.628 --> 00:07:46.338 manager, but you're there to lead that team. And whenever we talk about the 125 00:07:46.344 --> 00:07:50.146 characteristics of the managers that have brought the best out in you, lo and 126 00:07:50.168 --> 00:07:54.018 behold, they're all the skills of leaders every time. The 127 00:07:54.024 --> 00:07:57.318 other problem I found when I was in that zone, if you 128 00:07:57.324 --> 00:08:00.838 like, was I hadn't let go 129 00:08:01.004 --> 00:08:04.838 of my old job. I was still good at what I did. I was 130 00:08:04.924 --> 00:08:08.358 a good it technician, a good electronics engineer, I was a 131 00:08:08.444 --> 00:08:12.138 fantastic at installing servers and flying around the world and putting this 132 00:08:12.144 --> 00:08:15.994 stuff in and making it happen, then suddenly I had to care and 133 00:08:16.032 --> 00:08:19.802 motivate and worry about people, whereas my focus was on getting 134 00:08:19.856 --> 00:08:23.454 the job done. I didn't realise for many years that actually 135 00:08:23.572 --> 00:08:27.278 my job, my role, was actually motivating the people. 136 00:08:27.444 --> 00:08:31.150 And then whatever my role was other than that, 137 00:08:31.220 --> 00:08:34.506 was second, you come in the morning, your 138 00:08:34.548 --> 00:08:38.226 mission is to deploy your team, your troops, make sure 139 00:08:38.248 --> 00:08:41.698 they're happy, you do your toolbox talk, do whatever you do, you brief it, you 140 00:08:41.704 --> 00:08:45.314 do your agile, whatever scrum. And 141 00:08:45.352 --> 00:08:48.962 then, and only then, once you've dealt with everybody and got them 142 00:08:49.016 --> 00:08:52.694 motivated, then you can step back into your techie role or your 143 00:08:52.732 --> 00:08:56.390 senior accountant role, whatever it is, and do get on the tools again. 144 00:08:56.460 --> 00:09:00.154 I think that's the other trouble. We promote people without letting them 145 00:09:00.192 --> 00:09:03.754 let go or they don't want to let go. They didn't realise that. 146 00:09:03.872 --> 00:09:07.286 They thought it was just about being in charge, 147 00:09:07.478 --> 00:09:10.938 not having to worry about things. Well, that's it, isn't it? I'll tell you what 148 00:09:10.944 --> 00:09:14.766 to do and you'll do it. And that's that kind of shift of people. I 149 00:09:14.788 --> 00:09:18.526 think it's because people aren't given the real clarity about what their 150 00:09:18.548 --> 00:09:22.362 role involves, rather than it just be they're just told, yes, you're promoted, 151 00:09:22.426 --> 00:09:26.050 here's your pay rise, which everyone go, yeah, brilliant. Now I've sourced that, 152 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.282 the rest of it will just happen. And it doesn't, because we 153 00:09:29.336 --> 00:09:32.574 also motivating, driving, supporting, 154 00:09:32.622 --> 00:09:35.922 developing people. It's hard because 155 00:09:35.976 --> 00:09:39.560 everybody's different and everybody takes a different tweak and a different 156 00:09:40.010 --> 00:09:43.766 motivator and a different conversation and all of those things, 157 00:09:43.788 --> 00:09:47.398 and suddenly we've got to think about 15 people's motivators rather than just our own. 158 00:09:47.484 --> 00:09:51.238 So it's so easy to drop back into the comfort zone of, 159 00:09:51.404 --> 00:09:55.066 as you say, on the tools or whatever that may be. Going back into that 160 00:09:55.088 --> 00:09:58.614 is like, well, I feel comfortable here because I know I'm great at this, whereas 161 00:09:58.662 --> 00:10:01.914 that bit is hard, so I'm going to avoid that. And all that happens is 162 00:10:02.032 --> 00:10:05.646 the problems get bigger and bigger and our team get more and more disillusioned because 163 00:10:05.668 --> 00:10:08.974 they're not getting what they need, whether they've had what they need from your 164 00:10:09.012 --> 00:10:12.794 predecessor or not, they have those expectations 165 00:10:12.842 --> 00:10:16.562 that you're going to deliver those. Yeah. Another thing I learned about 166 00:10:16.616 --> 00:10:20.334 myself is that I don't enjoy managing 167 00:10:20.382 --> 00:10:23.790 people on a day to day basis. I really don't. 168 00:10:23.950 --> 00:10:27.374 But I do enjoy being a senior 169 00:10:27.422 --> 00:10:31.270 manager, a senior leader, a director, where I have people, 170 00:10:31.340 --> 00:10:35.186 managers beneath me. And we can have kind of. You have shortcut 171 00:10:35.218 --> 00:10:38.760 conversations, don't you? You don't have to do all of the. Are you okay? 172 00:10:39.210 --> 00:10:41.258 Sorry. I'm not saying you don't have to do that, but you have to do 173 00:10:41.264 --> 00:10:44.998 it in a different way. They tend to be self starting achievers, 174 00:10:45.094 --> 00:10:48.922 getting on with stuff and then kind of their problem to 175 00:10:48.976 --> 00:10:52.526 communicate the plan downwards. And I think I need a level of 176 00:10:52.548 --> 00:10:56.266 obfuscation or separation between me and the coal 177 00:10:56.298 --> 00:11:00.080 face because I really don't enjoy that. 178 00:11:00.690 --> 00:11:04.498 I like to see big pictures and it's often hard to translate a 179 00:11:04.504 --> 00:11:08.194 big picture into everyday speak when you've got people who are too 180 00:11:08.232 --> 00:11:12.034 worried about where the widget goes. So I've learned that about 181 00:11:12.072 --> 00:11:15.874 myself. I don't think that's uncommon because 182 00:11:15.912 --> 00:11:19.670 again, like you say, the bit that's difficult about 183 00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:23.266 managing people on a day to day basis is you are, to a degree, you're 184 00:11:23.298 --> 00:11:27.014 carrying their problems in your head quite a lot 185 00:11:27.052 --> 00:11:30.274 because there are those people who are those ultimate 186 00:11:30.322 --> 00:11:34.106 nurturers who are just amazing at doing that one to one piece with the 187 00:11:34.128 --> 00:11:37.066 individuals in their team as well as the whole bit. And they love it and 188 00:11:37.088 --> 00:11:40.746 they thrive on that. But actually, I think those people are quite 189 00:11:40.848 --> 00:11:44.506 unusual because I think most of us, because I'm exactly the same as 190 00:11:44.528 --> 00:11:48.046 you, I spent a lot of my time talking to managers about how they do 191 00:11:48.068 --> 00:11:51.134 that, get the most out of doing that day to day bit. But I know 192 00:11:51.172 --> 00:11:55.006 for a fact I'm much better when I've got that separation. I can just 193 00:11:55.028 --> 00:11:57.266 go, okay, right, well, this is where we need to get to your job is 194 00:11:57.288 --> 00:12:01.106 to get them there, because that's me being 195 00:12:01.128 --> 00:12:04.626 able to go, right. You deal with the really hard bit and I'll do 196 00:12:04.648 --> 00:12:08.406 the forward thinking bit and not the 197 00:12:08.428 --> 00:12:11.974 tactics bit, but you kind of go off and actually do those 198 00:12:12.092 --> 00:12:15.846 dealing with 810 people's issues because, and 199 00:12:15.868 --> 00:12:18.358 I know there's getting older as well. The older I get, the less kind of 200 00:12:18.364 --> 00:12:22.040 patience of sometimes, but it's hard. 201 00:12:22.570 --> 00:12:26.266 It is. You've got three people want holiday at the same time. You got 202 00:12:26.288 --> 00:12:29.466 to have the same old argument at Christmas about who gets the three days off, 203 00:12:29.488 --> 00:12:33.294 who has to come in. They're all no win 204 00:12:33.332 --> 00:12:36.814 conversations. You got to try and deliver the bad 205 00:12:36.852 --> 00:12:40.474 news in the best way possible to people. And it is. It's exhausting 206 00:12:40.522 --> 00:12:43.854 managing people. And I don't think 207 00:12:43.892 --> 00:12:47.566 anybody does it with ease. There's always a challenge 208 00:12:47.598 --> 00:12:51.298 there. People are different every day, aren't they? Yeah. And you think 209 00:12:51.384 --> 00:12:55.042 the way that workplaces are these days in terms of hybrid working 210 00:12:55.096 --> 00:12:58.514 as well, when you could go in and you were physically with your team every 211 00:12:58.552 --> 00:13:02.342 day, it was easier to spot instantly if somebody wasn't quite themselves, 212 00:13:02.476 --> 00:13:05.414 because within half an hour you could usually tell if someone was in a bad 213 00:13:05.452 --> 00:13:08.986 mood, someone was in a bit down or something like that. And I 214 00:13:09.008 --> 00:13:12.634 think for managers who had really good, strong 215 00:13:12.672 --> 00:13:16.074 relationships with their team, shifting to hybrid has been easier than people that 216 00:13:16.112 --> 00:13:19.882 didn't. Because again, with people working at home, 217 00:13:20.016 --> 00:13:23.866 it's easy to put a brave face on for 20 minutes while 218 00:13:23.888 --> 00:13:27.454 you're on a call with your boss and then turn off and 219 00:13:27.572 --> 00:13:30.974 crumble in a way that you couldn't do when you're in the office. You either 220 00:13:31.012 --> 00:13:34.734 had to maintain that facade for the whole day, which is really hard, 221 00:13:34.932 --> 00:13:37.986 or somebody would spot it. And I think a lot of 222 00:13:38.168 --> 00:13:41.762 frustrations and challenges and issues that people are dealing with got 223 00:13:41.816 --> 00:13:44.674 spotted a lot quicker than they do now because 224 00:13:44.792 --> 00:13:48.390 managers more stressed, they're busier, they're having 225 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:52.070 to take all the skills that maybe they weren't always great at 226 00:13:52.220 --> 00:13:56.006 in the office and apply them in a completely different setup in 227 00:13:56.028 --> 00:13:59.338 a way that they don't always know how to manage. 228 00:13:59.504 --> 00:14:03.242 And some organisations do it really well, 229 00:14:03.376 --> 00:14:06.842 most don't. And I think where the ones that 230 00:14:06.896 --> 00:14:10.474 do are the ones that support their managers to learn the 231 00:14:10.512 --> 00:14:14.266 skills to manage remotely, because obviously, like 232 00:14:14.288 --> 00:14:17.246 you say, when you were in your old job, you were flying around all over 233 00:14:17.268 --> 00:14:20.766 the place and doing stuff like. So you got used to 234 00:14:20.868 --> 00:14:24.718 being remote and lots of people have got that knowledge and experience, but also a 235 00:14:24.724 --> 00:14:28.386 lot of people haven't. And I'd be so interesting, when you were 236 00:14:28.408 --> 00:14:32.126 flying around and being remote and doing all that stuff, how were you managed 237 00:14:32.158 --> 00:14:36.006 at that point and how did that work for you? I was kind 238 00:14:36.028 --> 00:14:39.654 of empowered with the project, so I would be 239 00:14:39.772 --> 00:14:43.238 touching base user management to be touching base. That's a 240 00:14:43.244 --> 00:14:46.626 bit you're. If you're 241 00:14:46.658 --> 00:14:50.150 in Hong Kong, Singapore, La, 242 00:14:50.300 --> 00:14:54.042 San Diego, then you've got eight hour time differences. You can't sit 243 00:14:54.096 --> 00:14:57.594 and say, I can't do anything until people come in because your day is gone 244 00:14:57.632 --> 00:15:01.414 and their days started sort of thing. So you had a level of empowerment. 245 00:15:01.542 --> 00:15:04.974 You get on the plane and all you would do is cheque 246 00:15:05.012 --> 00:15:08.814 in on a regular basis. This is back in the pre 247 00:15:08.852 --> 00:15:12.686 email, you weren't texting each other. This was a phone call. It had 248 00:15:12.708 --> 00:15:16.130 to be a phone call. And so it was a phone call, just not 249 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.794 necessarily every day. Every time there's a situation or a problem, but 250 00:15:19.832 --> 00:15:23.506 also we were hooking stuff up between 251 00:15:23.688 --> 00:15:27.490 them and the UK and so sometimes there was conversations happening 252 00:15:27.560 --> 00:15:31.206 anyway, but very often, and I was going to talk about this, it's about this 253 00:15:31.228 --> 00:15:35.014 asynchronous form of management where we look at the 254 00:15:35.052 --> 00:15:38.770 evolution of email. We started that, so we ping an email off, can you 255 00:15:38.780 --> 00:15:42.474 do this? Someone reads the email, does something and says, that's done. 256 00:15:42.512 --> 00:15:46.150 Or can you clarify? That's not an interactive conversation or synchronous 257 00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:49.782 asynchronous. And now with teams with Slack 258 00:15:49.926 --> 00:15:53.594 WhatsApp, all these sort of messaging tools, we're now far more 259 00:15:53.632 --> 00:15:57.422 comfortable having one liner asynchronous conversations to fire 260 00:15:57.476 --> 00:16:01.214 people off. And that's, again, a different management style. If you need 261 00:16:01.252 --> 00:16:04.830 me, call me. If you don't get on. I think 262 00:16:04.900 --> 00:16:08.194 that's how it was for me. It was empowerment and 263 00:16:08.232 --> 00:16:11.954 responsibility, knowing. And I knew myself what 264 00:16:11.992 --> 00:16:14.926 I had to achieve by the end of the week because the flight is booked 265 00:16:14.958 --> 00:16:18.114 on Friday and I have to be on it sort of thing. Write a very 266 00:16:18.152 --> 00:16:21.814 clear project plan, get in, do this, do this, do this, get 267 00:16:21.852 --> 00:16:25.606 out. And if it was going badly, then I'd have to report that quickly because 268 00:16:25.628 --> 00:16:29.322 I'd need someone to change my flight and push back the next schedule. So, yeah, 269 00:16:29.376 --> 00:16:32.762 I think it was empowerment, trust and personal 270 00:16:32.816 --> 00:16:36.566 responsibility to communicate back. And I think know if you think about Daniel 271 00:16:36.598 --> 00:16:40.246 Pink's model for motivation, where it's autonomy, 272 00:16:40.278 --> 00:16:43.898 mastery and purpose. And so for you there, that autonomy 273 00:16:44.074 --> 00:16:47.838 was a great way of making sure, like you say, you've got 274 00:16:47.924 --> 00:16:51.774 those boundaries and those parameters that you've got to deliver in and 275 00:16:51.892 --> 00:16:55.134 you know that you're trusted and that you're valued and that you can deliver that 276 00:16:55.172 --> 00:16:58.994 and that you've got support if you need it. And I think where we are 277 00:16:59.032 --> 00:17:02.754 now, I think, like you say, with the advance of technology, there 278 00:17:02.792 --> 00:17:05.586 is almost for someone that just feel like they have to be checking in all 279 00:17:05.608 --> 00:17:09.186 the time and they feel like that's their job. And actually it's the complete opposite 280 00:17:09.218 --> 00:17:12.662 of what we need as humans in terms of being able to have 281 00:17:12.716 --> 00:17:16.534 that desire to deliver and to do our very best 282 00:17:16.572 --> 00:17:19.690 at something because we're constantly being kind of micromanaged. 283 00:17:21.470 --> 00:17:24.970 I did some work with a client earlier this year when we were talking 284 00:17:25.040 --> 00:17:28.794 about time management and prioritisation, and 285 00:17:28.912 --> 00:17:32.302 we talked about how they communicate and they had 15 different 286 00:17:32.356 --> 00:17:36.170 methods of communication and it was chaos 287 00:17:36.330 --> 00:17:40.046 because everybody was using something different and 288 00:17:40.068 --> 00:17:43.514 getting frustrated that everyone was. So we ended up. They put together a communication charter 289 00:17:43.562 --> 00:17:47.214 of how they would communicate, when they would communicate, which method they'd use for 290 00:17:47.252 --> 00:17:50.660 whichever purpose, and which ones they were just going to bin. As a business, 291 00:17:51.110 --> 00:17:54.146 they're clearly not going to stop people using them from their private lives. But as 292 00:17:54.168 --> 00:17:58.018 a business, this is how we communicate. And it's then down to you to 293 00:17:58.024 --> 00:18:01.414 talk to your manager about how often you need that and for your manager to 294 00:18:01.452 --> 00:18:04.790 start to and work out how you develop that trust, 295 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:08.566 because it can feel, I don't know if you've ever had it. I've had it 296 00:18:08.588 --> 00:18:12.330 sometimes with clients where you're kind of working on something and they're constantly kind of, 297 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.660 what about this? What about that. What about the other? And it's like, just 298 00:18:16.030 --> 00:18:19.834 absolutely want you to be involved. But let me get to this 299 00:18:19.872 --> 00:18:23.650 point first, and then we'll talk about it and then discuss anything. We're 300 00:18:23.670 --> 00:18:27.454 too easily accessible now. But also, it's too easy to 301 00:18:27.492 --> 00:18:31.214 avoid all of those interactions if you want to, which is the other end 302 00:18:31.252 --> 00:18:35.038 of it sometimes for managers, which is that we don't know if there's 303 00:18:35.054 --> 00:18:38.866 a problem sometimes until it's too late, because it's easy for people to 304 00:18:38.968 --> 00:18:42.370 hide if they want to. Yeah. And I think sometimes 305 00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:46.130 when you talked earlier about the cascading down and 306 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:49.586 what can happen is in that cascade, 307 00:18:49.778 --> 00:18:53.222 the critical parts of the information or the plan aren't always 308 00:18:53.276 --> 00:18:56.722 passed down as well. You're given this precy 309 00:18:56.866 --> 00:19:00.646 where people at the top know exactly what the long term goal is, but 310 00:19:00.668 --> 00:19:03.562 by the time it gets down to the person at the bottom, it just says, 311 00:19:03.696 --> 00:19:07.514 step forward. It doesn't say why or how or what the purpose of stepping forward 312 00:19:07.552 --> 00:19:11.386 is. And I remember doing a leadership development training with Hoskins at 313 00:19:11.408 --> 00:19:14.926 the time. This was late 80s, early ninety s. And I 314 00:19:14.948 --> 00:19:18.542 remember we were given a task to lead 315 00:19:18.596 --> 00:19:22.366 our team to build a bridge between two desks. And so 316 00:19:22.388 --> 00:19:25.746 we were given a bit of information. We said, okay, team, we need you to 317 00:19:25.768 --> 00:19:29.042 build a desk with this box of Lego or Meccano over. Across this 318 00:19:29.096 --> 00:19:32.610 desk. And some of the people built this really nice 319 00:19:32.760 --> 00:19:36.514 rope bridge, this swing thing. And then people did 320 00:19:36.552 --> 00:19:40.194 this and they did that. And then we, 321 00:19:40.232 --> 00:19:43.238 as sort of like the leaders, got this next bit of information. We need to 322 00:19:43.244 --> 00:19:46.966 be able to drive a car over that bridge. So we had to go back 323 00:19:46.988 --> 00:19:50.294 to them and say, right, okay, the plans changed, the goalposts changed it. We actually 324 00:19:50.332 --> 00:19:53.146 need to. So you need to take down the rope bridge. Now it is drive 325 00:19:53.168 --> 00:19:56.890 a car over it. Anyway, this carried on, carried on, carried on. And the final 326 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.282 thing we found out was the bridge is actually over some 327 00:20:00.336 --> 00:20:04.134 water and boats go under the bridge and sometimes the bridge 328 00:20:04.182 --> 00:20:07.258 needs to lift up in order to get the boat under it. Of course, none 329 00:20:07.274 --> 00:20:10.942 of the designs catered for that part of the plan. So it's all about 330 00:20:10.996 --> 00:20:14.174 recognising as leaders, we need to communicate the 331 00:20:14.212 --> 00:20:17.874 goal and buy people into the shared success of the 332 00:20:17.912 --> 00:20:21.554 project and the outcome, not think, oh, I can't trust them with this just 333 00:20:21.592 --> 00:20:25.382 yet, because that'll blow their minds. And then we protect people 334 00:20:25.436 --> 00:20:28.550 and that ends up with this communication gap. 335 00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:32.790 Absolutely. And I do stuff around change 336 00:20:32.860 --> 00:20:35.880 management and using ad car to 337 00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:39.730 the ad car model that some people may or may not have heard of, is 338 00:20:39.820 --> 00:20:43.162 really simple, it's really easy, and it's just five steps that take 339 00:20:43.216 --> 00:20:46.106 you from awareness through to 340 00:20:46.128 --> 00:20:49.814 reinforcement. And it's all about communication, it's 341 00:20:49.862 --> 00:20:53.674 all about right up at the beginning. The more you communicate with people, the more 342 00:20:53.712 --> 00:20:57.434 you tell them and give them and share with them, the more aware 343 00:20:57.482 --> 00:21:01.294 they are, the more likely they are to engage with that. But there's this 344 00:21:01.412 --> 00:21:04.914 thinking, I don't know what happens as people get further and further up the 345 00:21:04.952 --> 00:21:08.180 tree. I'm using my hands. Nobody else can see this, can they? 346 00:21:09.750 --> 00:21:13.166 That people kind of lose the ability to see people's 347 00:21:13.198 --> 00:21:16.886 capability further down the line. And actually, the more you 348 00:21:16.908 --> 00:21:20.710 communicate and share pre change, the more 349 00:21:20.860 --> 00:21:24.294 different perspectives you get inside. And the more 350 00:21:24.332 --> 00:21:28.006 people you get talking about what that might look like and what the 351 00:21:28.028 --> 00:21:31.146 impact can be, the more chance there is of that being something that actually is 352 00:21:31.168 --> 00:21:34.826 going to work. Because when decisions are made completely in a 353 00:21:34.848 --> 00:21:38.646 bubble about, based on statistics, spreadsheets, 354 00:21:38.838 --> 00:21:42.062 data with no thought or 355 00:21:42.196 --> 00:21:45.694 consideration put into the reality behind the 356 00:21:45.732 --> 00:21:49.386 figures that are spewed out of whichever software, it's 357 00:21:49.418 --> 00:21:53.166 never going to be something that can be delivered, that there will always 358 00:21:53.188 --> 00:21:56.926 be better ways to do, better ways to add. But we just don't, as organisations, 359 00:21:56.958 --> 00:22:00.574 we so often just don't. Like you say, we're too scared of frightening 360 00:22:00.622 --> 00:22:04.446 people, when actually the more people hear rumours about what's 361 00:22:04.478 --> 00:22:08.218 going on without any consolidation of those rumours, the worse 362 00:22:08.334 --> 00:22:12.086 the fears. And there's a word, but my menopausal brain can't think 363 00:22:12.108 --> 00:22:15.366 of it. The conjecture. It's not conjecture, but it's that kind of 364 00:22:15.388 --> 00:22:18.838 thing. But the worse it gets. And I 365 00:22:18.844 --> 00:22:22.458 think the day that big organisations recognise that 366 00:22:22.544 --> 00:22:25.914 change can be done in a different way, they'll be so much 367 00:22:25.952 --> 00:22:29.414 smoother, so much easier. No wonder there's such a massive 368 00:22:29.462 --> 00:22:33.246 change or industry in people coming in and consulting on 369 00:22:33.268 --> 00:22:36.974 this, because just being honest and open with people, 370 00:22:37.092 --> 00:22:40.000 people are far more capable than they're given credit for. 371 00:22:40.850 --> 00:22:44.206 And they want to be trusted, they want to be able to take responsibility, they 372 00:22:44.228 --> 00:22:48.046 want to be able to bring some of their own creativity. And I appreciate we've 373 00:22:48.078 --> 00:22:51.746 got. There's lots of psychological models about type x and 374 00:22:51.768 --> 00:22:55.506 type Y people, or whatever it is, and some people like to be 375 00:22:55.528 --> 00:22:59.094 given a task with very tight bounds and said, do this, 376 00:22:59.212 --> 00:23:02.646 put screw a into hole b, do it and 377 00:23:02.668 --> 00:23:06.214 repeat. Some people are artisans, some people are artists, some people 378 00:23:06.252 --> 00:23:09.894 are technicians and creative and they want 379 00:23:09.932 --> 00:23:13.738 parameters, not straitjackets. And it's recognising as a 380 00:23:13.744 --> 00:23:17.498 leader. The different management styles you have to adopt with different people 381 00:23:17.584 --> 00:23:21.046 to get the best out of them. And some people are high maintenance 382 00:23:21.238 --> 00:23:24.262 and some people are low maintenance and some people react 383 00:23:24.326 --> 00:23:27.930 differently. I know if you don't give someone a tight boundary, 384 00:23:28.090 --> 00:23:30.638 they'll break down and go, I don't know what's expected. I can't handle this. I 385 00:23:30.644 --> 00:23:34.458 don't know what's expected of me. Other people over manage, they rebel and go, hang 386 00:23:34.474 --> 00:23:38.318 on a minute, I know what I'm doing. And you end up having to diffuse 387 00:23:38.334 --> 00:23:41.106 these conflicts. And I think that's the biggest challenge as a leader is recognising that 388 00:23:41.128 --> 00:23:44.290 people are different and really are different and surprise you. 389 00:23:44.360 --> 00:23:47.750 Yeah. As a manager or a leader, 390 00:23:48.090 --> 00:23:51.926 the time that you invest in getting to know and 391 00:23:51.948 --> 00:23:55.382 understanding your people and having the 392 00:23:55.436 --> 00:23:59.122 awareness that go into those conversations without an agenda, 393 00:23:59.186 --> 00:24:02.762 just go in and sit down and get to know them as people, as 394 00:24:02.816 --> 00:24:06.662 individuals and not as their job title, 395 00:24:06.806 --> 00:24:10.646 but just sitting down and saying, right, I'm your new manager. 396 00:24:10.758 --> 00:24:14.586 Tell me about yourself, tell me about you, tell me about what you enjoy, 397 00:24:14.688 --> 00:24:17.406 tell me about what you don't enjoy, tell me about what you want to do 398 00:24:17.428 --> 00:24:20.378 more of, tell me what your plans, what do you want? And some people don't 399 00:24:20.394 --> 00:24:24.026 want to share that stuff in work. They don't want to share anything beyond, I'm 400 00:24:24.058 --> 00:24:26.386 here to do my job and I want to just do my job and go 401 00:24:26.408 --> 00:24:29.730