WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.610 --> 00:00:11.402 Welcome to inclusion bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.466 --> 00:00:15.274 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.322 --> 00:00:18.814 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.852 --> 00:00:21.962 inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.026 --> 00:00:25.734 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:25.772 --> 00:00:28.982 a world where everyone not only belongs, but 7 00:00:29.036 --> 00:00:32.886 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:32.908 --> 00:00:36.402 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:36.546 --> 00:00:40.202 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.336 --> 00:00:43.910 Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:43.990 --> 00:00:47.146 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.328 --> 00:00:50.700 reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.090 --> 00:00:54.702 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach 14 00:00:54.756 --> 00:00:55.310 out to 15 00:00:55.380 --> 00:00:59.066 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 16 00:00:59.178 --> 00:01:02.960 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 17 00:01:03.430 --> 00:01:07.042 So just your earbuds and settle in. It's time 18 00:01:07.096 --> 00:01:10.382 to ignite the spark of inclusion with inclusion 19 00:01:10.446 --> 00:01:11.170 bites. 20 00:01:16.170 --> 00:01:19.606 And today is episode 108 with the 21 00:01:19.628 --> 00:01:23.302 title from resilience to inspiration. And I have the 22 00:01:23.356 --> 00:01:27.106 absolute honour and privilege to welcome Paris Bartholomew. Paris 23 00:01:27.138 --> 00:01:30.986 is a speaker, writer, lecturer and trainer. And when I 24 00:01:31.008 --> 00:01:34.198 asked Paris to describe her superpower, she said empathy, 25 00:01:34.294 --> 00:01:37.830 love, compassion and resilience. 26 00:01:37.910 --> 00:01:41.594 Hello, Paris, welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. Thank 27 00:01:41.632 --> 00:01:45.150 you so much for having me on the show, really, 28 00:01:45.220 --> 00:01:48.910 it's such a pleasure to be here. It's an honour for me. 29 00:01:49.060 --> 00:01:52.766 I've read some of the background of the show notes and I'm 30 00:01:52.798 --> 00:01:56.450 so looking forward to this conversation. So, yeah, welcome, Paris, 31 00:01:56.950 --> 00:02:00.322 from resilience to inspiration. Tell me more about 32 00:02:00.376 --> 00:02:04.100 yourself. Well, I suppose it's worth 33 00:02:04.550 --> 00:02:08.218 mentioning that I am a lived, experienced 34 00:02:08.254 --> 00:02:12.006 speaker. So what that means is that I spent the 35 00:02:12.028 --> 00:02:15.846 majority of my childhood within the british care system. I 36 00:02:15.868 --> 00:02:19.034 went into care at the age of six and after 37 00:02:19.152 --> 00:02:22.922 multiple placements, we're talking twelve 38 00:02:22.976 --> 00:02:26.522 placements over a 1314 year 39 00:02:26.576 --> 00:02:30.398 period. I left local authority care at the age of 18 with my 40 00:02:30.404 --> 00:02:34.094 own flat, my own independence, my life ahead of 41 00:02:34.132 --> 00:02:37.742 me, but maybe not in a very solid place, 42 00:02:37.876 --> 00:02:41.120 maybe not in a very comfortable, loving place. 43 00:02:41.970 --> 00:02:45.410 And I suppose for me it was about building identity, 44 00:02:45.830 --> 00:02:49.634 building resilience, learning how to 45 00:02:49.672 --> 00:02:53.314 interact with people and building trust with other 46 00:02:53.352 --> 00:02:57.174 humans. Things that I think a lot of people develop from a very young 47 00:02:57.212 --> 00:03:01.014 age. But just due to the many moves that I 48 00:03:01.052 --> 00:03:04.694 had during my childhood, it just made for a 49 00:03:04.732 --> 00:03:08.006 very unstable, traumatic time growing 50 00:03:08.038 --> 00:03:11.722 up. I'm just doing the maths here. So, six 51 00:03:11.776 --> 00:03:15.498 to 1812 placements, you're effectively moving 52 00:03:15.584 --> 00:03:19.386 every year. Yeah, there were some placements that 53 00:03:19.408 --> 00:03:23.054 were three to six months long and there were others that were just 54 00:03:23.092 --> 00:03:26.574 over a year. My longest placement was just under two 55 00:03:26.612 --> 00:03:30.080 years and that was a large group home in 56 00:03:30.450 --> 00:03:34.274 onestead in east London. But the majority of my time, as 57 00:03:34.312 --> 00:03:38.050 you say, was very much, very short periods of time 58 00:03:38.200 --> 00:03:41.442 in foster families, group homes, independent living 59 00:03:41.496 --> 00:03:45.218 projects, you name it. I've stayed in hotels longer than some of 60 00:03:45.224 --> 00:03:48.822 those placements. It's bad enough moving 61 00:03:48.876 --> 00:03:52.466 home where you have to pack and unpack and become familiar 62 00:03:52.498 --> 00:03:56.150 with not only where you're living, but the surroundings, the people around 63 00:03:56.220 --> 00:03:59.690 you. It really is destabilising, isn't it, that kind of 64 00:03:59.760 --> 00:04:02.780 nomadic lifestyle? Absolutely. 65 00:04:03.390 --> 00:04:07.226 Very unstable. And I suppose when you're thinking about 66 00:04:07.248 --> 00:04:10.874 your childhood years and the things that you need to 67 00:04:10.912 --> 00:04:14.510 navigate naturally, like learning how to trust, learning 68 00:04:14.580 --> 00:04:18.238 how to build bonds and learning how to give and 69 00:04:18.244 --> 00:04:22.094 receive love, these are just things that I unfortunately was never able 70 00:04:22.132 --> 00:04:25.790 to develop over the years as a child. So it was about 71 00:04:25.860 --> 00:04:29.394 navigating some of that as an adult. Can I ask how you 72 00:04:29.512 --> 00:04:32.626 entered the care system in the first place at the age of six? How did 73 00:04:32.648 --> 00:04:36.146 that come about? Absolutely. Unfortunately, my birth 74 00:04:36.178 --> 00:04:39.206 mum was convicted of several accounts of 75 00:04:39.228 --> 00:04:43.030 abuse so severe that it did end up in the local 76 00:04:43.100 --> 00:04:46.710 press. I was hospitalised for a couple of weeks 77 00:04:46.780 --> 00:04:50.422 for assessments, tests and then released 78 00:04:50.486 --> 00:04:53.660 into an assessment centre, which, 79 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:58.090 without revealing my age, which 80 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:01.822 back in the 70s, was a very, 81 00:05:01.876 --> 00:05:05.514 very different system to what we're looking at now. So an assessment 82 00:05:05.562 --> 00:05:09.310 centre back then was full of children who 83 00:05:09.460 --> 00:05:13.306 had varying levels of behavioural and emotional 84 00:05:13.338 --> 00:05:16.914 problems? Yeah, it was a 85 00:05:16.952 --> 00:05:20.594 very traumatic time. It was a very uncertain time. But one 86 00:05:20.632 --> 00:05:24.386 thing I would say is that when you're a child, you know no different. 87 00:05:24.568 --> 00:05:28.402 You only know your reality. So as traumatic as it was, 88 00:05:28.536 --> 00:05:31.814 I just got on with it because it was all I knew. So the person 89 00:05:32.012 --> 00:05:35.766 who was there to protect you, there to nurture you, there to 90 00:05:35.788 --> 00:05:39.622 be an example to you, was the person causing you the pain 91 00:05:39.676 --> 00:05:43.226 and the distress. So when you were moving into the care system, 92 00:05:43.328 --> 00:05:47.066 you didn't come from a position of learnt love, if you 93 00:05:47.088 --> 00:05:50.422 like, learnt. You must have been very wary 94 00:05:50.566 --> 00:05:54.330 about people and contact authority figures. 95 00:05:54.690 --> 00:05:58.398 That's been really difficult for you as a young child. It was difficult. 96 00:05:58.564 --> 00:06:02.286 And I remember at the age of six, when I entered care, I 97 00:06:02.308 --> 00:06:06.046 remember being quite distrustful 98 00:06:06.158 --> 00:06:09.554 generally and wary, but at the same 99 00:06:09.592 --> 00:06:13.186 time loving my mum, regardless of the fact that she did all these 100 00:06:13.208 --> 00:06:16.834 horrible things. I knew when she went into prison that she had 101 00:06:16.872 --> 00:06:20.070 done something wrong. And I think the difference between 102 00:06:20.220 --> 00:06:23.686 myself and I do believe that this is some of where the 103 00:06:23.708 --> 00:06:27.398 resilience came in, is that other adults that I have met 104 00:06:27.484 --> 00:06:31.206 as part of my work, that were in the care system often blamed 105 00:06:31.238 --> 00:06:35.002 themselves for going into care. I didn't do that. I 106 00:06:35.056 --> 00:06:38.874 knew because of the conviction that it was very much something 107 00:06:38.912 --> 00:06:42.650 that was done to me that was wrong, something that was punishable 108 00:06:42.730 --> 00:06:46.506 and something that was extremely traumatic. 109 00:06:46.618 --> 00:06:49.706 But what's interesting about trauma is that you don't fully 110 00:06:49.898 --> 00:06:53.182 experience it until you learn what it is. And at 111 00:06:53.236 --> 00:06:56.946 6710, I didn't know what it was, and I think 112 00:06:56.968 --> 00:07:00.686 it wasn't till I got to around 1112. When I'm socialising 113 00:07:00.718 --> 00:07:04.142 with friends at school, when I'm going to friends homes for dinner, 114 00:07:04.286 --> 00:07:08.078 that's when you'll begin to realise that your life is very different to 115 00:07:08.104 --> 00:07:11.638 the average child in your school. So you must have been kind of considered a 116 00:07:11.644 --> 00:07:15.142 bit of an outsider, maybe mixing with people who are, 117 00:07:15.276 --> 00:07:18.586 in quotes, stable family homes. Was there 118 00:07:18.608 --> 00:07:22.330 any distrust of you or did people 119 00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:26.202 embrace you fully, if you like? Yeah, that's a good question, actually, 120 00:07:26.256 --> 00:07:29.770 because I think that people saw my life as actually 121 00:07:29.840 --> 00:07:33.358 quite advantageous in some ways. When you're a child, 122 00:07:33.524 --> 00:07:37.326 all you're thinking about is, oh, mum won't let 123 00:07:37.348 --> 00:07:41.086 me do this, or dad won't let me do that, or I want this and 124 00:07:41.108 --> 00:07:44.926 I want that. And I think a lot of my friends looked at my 125 00:07:44.948 --> 00:07:48.754 life and saw some of the things that we would probably define as 126 00:07:48.792 --> 00:07:52.546 being quite know. I got pocket money every week, some 127 00:07:52.568 --> 00:07:56.338 of my friends didn't, some of my friends didn't have money 128 00:07:56.424 --> 00:07:59.400 to sort of buy things that they wanted to buy. 129 00:07:59.770 --> 00:08:03.078 In one of the large group homes, we used to have 130 00:08:03.164 --> 00:08:06.934 clothing allowance, and I don't know if you're old enough to remember a shop called 131 00:08:06.972 --> 00:08:10.618 CNA, but that was my 132 00:08:10.704 --> 00:08:14.010 regular allowance shop, and we'd go there with our 133 00:08:14.080 --> 00:08:17.482 allowance and I could choose what I wanted. And 134 00:08:17.536 --> 00:08:21.306 again, in some of the areas that I lived, 135 00:08:21.338 --> 00:08:24.878 which were very working class, quite a lot of 136 00:08:24.884 --> 00:08:28.394 poverty, quite a lot of socioeconomic 137 00:08:28.442 --> 00:08:31.514 factors that made for very poverish 138 00:08:31.642 --> 00:08:35.326 circumstances. I went to school with children that couldn't 139 00:08:35.358 --> 00:08:39.202 afford new clothes. So as superficial as those things might 140 00:08:39.256 --> 00:08:42.802 be, if we think about the hierarchy of what we 141 00:08:42.856 --> 00:08:46.546 need as individuals, we need security, we need love, we need 142 00:08:46.568 --> 00:08:50.134 protection. I didn't have all of those things, but I did have some of the 143 00:08:50.172 --> 00:08:53.734 things that other children would look at, and so I was 144 00:08:53.772 --> 00:08:57.174 accepted in most of the arenas that I was 145 00:08:57.212 --> 00:09:00.506 in. Do you have siblings? Were you with anybody? 146 00:09:00.688 --> 00:09:04.374 I do. I have two sisters, but unfortunately we weren't 147 00:09:04.422 --> 00:09:07.926 placed together. I'm the oldest of three girls 148 00:09:08.038 --> 00:09:11.574 and both of my siblings went into care at different 149 00:09:11.632 --> 00:09:15.342 times. So my youngest sister who's eleven years 150 00:09:15.396 --> 00:09:19.006 younger than me, was entering the system at the time when I was 151 00:09:19.108 --> 00:09:22.638 leaving the system. So a lots of kind of 152 00:09:22.804 --> 00:09:26.450 separateness, but I was lucky enough to always 153 00:09:26.520 --> 00:09:29.618 know where they were and I was a confident child 154 00:09:29.704 --> 00:09:33.346 regardless of what was going on around the age of sort of 155 00:09:33.368 --> 00:09:36.630 1213 14. I was an outgoing child, I was a 156 00:09:36.700 --> 00:09:39.880 talkative child and I very much wanted to 157 00:09:40.490 --> 00:09:44.150 represent myself and I would camp outside 158 00:09:44.220 --> 00:09:48.006 social services office and say, I'm not moving until you tell me where my 159 00:09:48.028 --> 00:09:51.450 sister is. That was very demanding 160 00:09:51.870 --> 00:09:55.574 and not easy. It wasn't easy for some of the families 161 00:09:55.622 --> 00:09:59.258 that I lived with. Didn't work out because I wasn't the sort of child 162 00:09:59.424 --> 00:10:02.974 that was able to assimilate well into a family because I 163 00:10:03.012 --> 00:10:06.830 just didn't have the things that I needed 164 00:10:06.900 --> 00:10:10.446 to understand how to give and receive love. How did that 165 00:10:10.468 --> 00:10:13.914 manifest? Was it frustration, anger, disruptive 166 00:10:13.962 --> 00:10:17.780 behaviour, that kind of things? Was it? It was some of that. 167 00:10:18.150 --> 00:10:21.970 Some of it was over compliance. So it was extremes. 168 00:10:22.630 --> 00:10:26.086 I remember, for example, I lived in a white family 169 00:10:26.268 --> 00:10:30.118 in the area near Margate, Seaside town. I was the 170 00:10:30.124 --> 00:10:33.702 only black child in the school. I was the only 171 00:10:33.756 --> 00:10:37.334 child in that family. And it was very 172 00:10:37.372 --> 00:10:41.126 difficult because I knew nothing about my heritage. I 173 00:10:41.148 --> 00:10:44.794 didn't understand the fact that I was black. Yes. I knew I was different. Yes. 174 00:10:44.832 --> 00:10:48.602 Obviously, it was obvious to me that I was different in many ways, but because 175 00:10:48.656 --> 00:10:52.302 my cultural needs were not being met, it was very difficult for me to then 176 00:10:52.356 --> 00:10:55.966 look positively at what it meant to be a black child. 177 00:10:56.148 --> 00:10:59.738 And that made me angry. And that anger did manifest 178 00:10:59.834 --> 00:11:03.646 as bad behaviour, as aggressive behaviour, yeah. If 179 00:11:03.668 --> 00:11:06.978 you were the only black child in a school and it was in a 180 00:11:06.984 --> 00:11:10.420 foster family, they would have had very little experience 181 00:11:10.950 --> 00:11:14.574 of racism. Or as you say, your cultural 182 00:11:14.622 --> 00:11:18.258 needs, your nourishment as a 183 00:11:18.264 --> 00:11:21.986 young black girl, if you like, and what you needed growing up, you needed role 184 00:11:22.018 --> 00:11:25.494 models, you needed someone who could bounce off of and 185 00:11:25.532 --> 00:11:28.930 respect and look up to. And you had none of that. We're living in a 186 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:32.666 white environment. Yeah, absolutely. You've hit the 187 00:11:32.688 --> 00:11:36.426 nail on the head around the lack of role models because that was 188 00:11:36.448 --> 00:11:40.206 something that I found a bit later on was very 189 00:11:40.228 --> 00:11:43.774 helpful in the formation of my identity and 190 00:11:43.812 --> 00:11:47.258 understanding culturally, racially, ethnically, 191 00:11:47.434 --> 00:11:50.638 what I was about. I think what was really difficult 192 00:11:50.724 --> 00:11:54.358 for those particular foster parents, as you've said, they didn't 193 00:11:54.394 --> 00:11:58.050 understand racism. They didn't understand and it was difficult 194 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.730 for them because they weren't armed with what they needed to protect 195 00:12:01.800 --> 00:12:05.598 me. The school did what they could, but again, when you're 196 00:12:05.614 --> 00:12:09.378 in an environment where they've never had to put these things in place before, 197 00:12:09.544 --> 00:12:12.646 and now you've come along, it's very much a case of, well, what do we 198 00:12:12.668 --> 00:12:16.418 do here? How do we navigate this? Yeah. And I certainly didn't 199 00:12:16.434 --> 00:12:19.270 have the answers at that age. It's 200 00:12:20.030 --> 00:12:23.786 hard for me to create a link to your lived experience because it 201 00:12:23.808 --> 00:12:27.594 is so detached from my reality. And I can 202 00:12:27.632 --> 00:12:31.386 feel the way you're talking about describing it. It must have been 203 00:12:31.408 --> 00:12:35.086 really, you were ten years old and some twelve years old or 204 00:12:35.108 --> 00:12:38.942 younger. So did you exit the care 205 00:12:38.996 --> 00:12:42.240 system at 18 with a good education, 206 00:12:42.770 --> 00:12:46.590 with the tools for life, or you lacked 207 00:12:46.670 --> 00:12:50.178 some of that? I was lucky enough to, 208 00:12:50.344 --> 00:12:53.586 as I said earlier, have the confidence and 209 00:12:53.768 --> 00:12:57.202 strength, maybe courage even, to be quite 210 00:12:57.256 --> 00:13:00.966 demanding about what I wanted. And when I got to the age of 15, I 211 00:13:00.988 --> 00:13:04.790 said to my social worker, I've had enough, I've had enough. We are 212 00:13:04.940 --> 00:13:08.706 nine placements in. I am tired, 213 00:13:08.818 --> 00:13:12.022 I am fed up, and I want something different for myself. 214 00:13:12.156 --> 00:13:15.466 And the only option that I can see at this point is 215 00:13:15.568 --> 00:13:19.066 independence and freedom. Can I have a flat? Can I just get on with my 216 00:13:19.088 --> 00:13:22.230 life? And my social worker said, you're 15, of course you can't have a flat, 217 00:13:22.310 --> 00:13:26.094 but what I can do is meet you halfway. She said, I really 218 00:13:26.132 --> 00:13:29.694 want you to just give this foster system a chance one more 219 00:13:29.732 --> 00:13:32.922 time. So at 15, I had my final foster 220 00:13:32.986 --> 00:13:36.626 placement, which again, didn't really work out. It was with a 221 00:13:36.648 --> 00:13:40.094 black family, it was a single parent family, a lovely 222 00:13:40.142 --> 00:13:42.820 woman who I'm still in contact with, actually. 223 00:13:43.830 --> 00:13:47.462 And it didn't work out because I was hell bent on 224 00:13:47.516 --> 00:13:51.094 independence and freedom, just like most 15 year olds, actually, 225 00:13:51.212 --> 00:13:54.994 I don't think I was very different in that respect. So I then moved 226 00:13:55.122 --> 00:13:58.966 into a Bernardo's semi independent living project. It was just 227 00:13:58.988 --> 00:14:02.778 before my 16th birthday and I was able to have my own room. 228 00:14:02.864 --> 00:14:06.666 A member of staff, a residential social worker, would come in 229 00:14:06.688 --> 00:14:10.234 on in the evenings at around 06:00 p.m. And they would be there till six 230 00:14:10.272 --> 00:14:14.042 in the morning just in case anybody needed them. And there were 231 00:14:14.096 --> 00:14:17.454 around, I think, eight or nine rooms. Everybody had their own 232 00:14:17.492 --> 00:14:21.210 room and we had a small allowance every week and we had to pay rent. 233 00:14:21.290 --> 00:14:25.074 And it was a taste of freedom for me. I was at college, I was 234 00:14:25.112 --> 00:14:28.706 doing performing arts. I knew where I wanted to go in my 235 00:14:28.728 --> 00:14:32.562 life. And this taste of freedom really gave me 236 00:14:32.696 --> 00:14:36.494 a little bit of an insight into what I wanted 237 00:14:36.552 --> 00:14:40.294 for myself. And I grabbed it with both hands, I paid 238 00:14:40.332 --> 00:14:43.718 my rent on time. I went to college, I 239 00:14:43.884 --> 00:14:47.618 finished my course and then I went into another placement 240 00:14:47.714 --> 00:14:51.354 at the age of 17 before getting my flat at 18. And by the time 241 00:14:51.392 --> 00:14:55.034 I got my flat, I felt a little lost, a little 242 00:14:55.072 --> 00:14:58.282 confused. But I'd had two to three 243 00:14:58.336 --> 00:15:01.766 years of so called adultness. 244 00:15:01.878 --> 00:15:05.638 I'd had an opportunity to find my feet. So 245 00:15:05.664 --> 00:15:08.974 by the time I got my flat at 18, I was ready. I was ready 246 00:15:09.012 --> 00:15:12.554 for that independence. And I say I'm lucky because I know a lot of young 247 00:15:12.612 --> 00:15:15.620 people are not ready at that age. Yeah, I think 248 00:15:16.150 --> 00:15:19.694 we called this episode resilience. 249 00:15:19.742 --> 00:15:23.586 And to inspiration, your lived experience over 250 00:15:23.608 --> 00:15:27.394 those years from the age of six taught you that necessity 251 00:15:27.442 --> 00:15:30.982 of resilience, having to cope with meeting different 252 00:15:31.036 --> 00:15:34.690 families, different schools, a lack of stability 253 00:15:34.770 --> 00:15:38.486 in your life. Yes, you rebelled. Yes, you were probably angry, yes, you were 254 00:15:38.508 --> 00:15:42.346 frustrated, but it gave you those life skills, if you 255 00:15:42.368 --> 00:15:46.170 like, to be able to stand in your own 2ft. And when you were ready, 256 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.866 you were ready. Yeah, I was ready. I 257 00:15:49.888 --> 00:15:53.626 remember I had this lovely little brown philofax 258 00:15:53.658 --> 00:15:57.306 that I bought from wh Smiths. I got it out of my pocket 259 00:15:57.338 --> 00:16:01.166 money and I was probably not even 15 at 260 00:16:01.188 --> 00:16:05.038 the time. And I had these lists that were all colour coded and 261 00:16:05.044 --> 00:16:08.674 they were all about what I wanted for myself. It was like a 262 00:16:08.712 --> 00:16:12.242 plan, it was almost like a life plan. 263 00:16:12.376 --> 00:16:15.894 And it was about where I wanted to be. And as much as I was 264 00:16:15.932 --> 00:16:19.654 angry, as much as I was hurt, as much 265 00:16:19.692 --> 00:16:23.254 as I felt quite sorry for myself in some ways, I 266 00:16:23.292 --> 00:16:26.930 also had hope. And I never lost 267 00:16:27.090 --> 00:16:30.906 that little bit of hope that my life would get better as long as I 268 00:16:30.928 --> 00:16:34.454 was in the driving seat, because I, for many years, felt 269 00:16:34.502 --> 00:16:38.058 that there was very little control over where I went, 270 00:16:38.224 --> 00:16:42.074 when I went and who I went with. That sense of control was 271 00:16:42.112 --> 00:16:45.920 really important for me because it just meant that I could begin building 272 00:16:46.450 --> 00:16:50.138 my identity, building all the things that I felt that was lacking. 273 00:16:50.234 --> 00:16:53.890 Statistically, people who are careleavers tend not 274 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:57.506 to succeed in life, enter maybe the 275 00:16:57.528 --> 00:17:01.314 prison system or homelessness or joblessness or. 276 00:17:01.432 --> 00:17:04.990 How did you break that cycle of the contextual 277 00:17:05.070 --> 00:17:08.774 expectation of who you are? Because you must have had 278 00:17:08.812 --> 00:17:12.438 challenges where you were seeking employment or 279 00:17:12.524 --> 00:17:16.246 whatever it may be, where you had that lived experience, people maybe 280 00:17:16.348 --> 00:17:19.554 would have had some prejudice against you. A mistrust 281 00:17:19.602 --> 00:17:23.434 maybe? Absolutely. And I learned from a very 282 00:17:23.472 --> 00:17:27.066 early age that there were times to tell the truth and there were times where 283 00:17:27.088 --> 00:17:30.662 you maybe needed to be creative with the truth. And I didn't 284 00:17:30.806 --> 00:17:34.586 always say that I was care experience. Sometimes I didn't 285 00:17:34.618 --> 00:17:38.126 need to. But sometimes I was able to use that to my 286 00:17:38.148 --> 00:17:41.562 advantage. So when I applied to do my first degree 287 00:17:41.706 --> 00:17:45.422 and there was an element of social work within 288 00:17:45.476 --> 00:17:49.166 the degree, it was a combined degree of social work teaching. 289 00:17:49.278 --> 00:17:52.994 I used my care experience because they said, well, you need to be 21 290 00:17:53.032 --> 00:17:56.434 to come onto this course. And I was 19 going on 291 00:17:56.472 --> 00:18:00.280 20. And I said, okay, I'm not 21, but I can 292 00:18:00.730 --> 00:18:04.246 explain to you how I have got more 293 00:18:04.348 --> 00:18:07.720 experience than your average 21 year old. My life experience 294 00:18:08.330 --> 00:18:11.986 up until this point is probably a bit 295 00:18:12.028 --> 00:18:15.114 more than the average 21 year old. And I was very open about my care 296 00:18:15.152 --> 00:18:18.906 experience at that interview for my degree. And 297 00:18:18.928 --> 00:18:22.174 I got onto that course and I was the youngest person on the course and 298 00:18:22.212 --> 00:18:26.026 qualified with a first degree and then went on to do a master's 299 00:18:26.058 --> 00:18:29.886 in psychology, philosophy combined. And I enjoyed learning. 300 00:18:30.068 --> 00:18:33.722 I enjoyed education. When I was a child, 301 00:18:33.796 --> 00:18:37.154 books were my escape. Books were my way of 302 00:18:37.272 --> 00:18:40.946 escaping the reality of my existence. I used books as a 303 00:18:40.968 --> 00:18:44.706 way of forgetting the traumatic environment that I 304 00:18:44.728 --> 00:18:48.278 was in and almost transporting myself into the characters in the 305 00:18:48.284 --> 00:18:52.066 books. And for that reason, learning was fun because I enjoyed 306 00:18:52.098 --> 00:18:55.942 reading and I enjoyed acquiring knowledge. And I was a curious child. 307 00:18:56.076 --> 00:18:58.790 You mentioned at the beginning about your queerness. 308 00:19:00.250 --> 00:19:03.786 We start to form our identity at the age of six or seven, don't we? 309 00:19:03.808 --> 00:19:07.494 So, right, the age you were going through, the trauma with your mother, 310 00:19:07.542 --> 00:19:11.146 you had started to kind of discover who you are, think about who you 311 00:19:11.168 --> 00:19:14.986 are. And this would have been without ageing you. This 312 00:19:15.008 --> 00:19:18.558 would have been the. It wasn't an easy time to be queer in 313 00:19:18.564 --> 00:19:22.394 the, in the care system and without role models 314 00:19:22.442 --> 00:19:25.970 and being with white families. As a black woman, how did you 315 00:19:26.040 --> 00:19:29.826 find that queerness came out, or was 316 00:19:29.848 --> 00:19:33.220 it suppressed until you were 18? I 317 00:19:33.590 --> 00:19:37.382 did not see myself as queer until I was well into my twenty 318 00:19:37.436 --> 00:19:40.502 s. I was so busy navigating the 319 00:19:40.636 --> 00:19:44.280 real basic aspects of 320 00:19:44.650 --> 00:19:48.402 being a child. Puberty, adolescence, 321 00:19:48.546 --> 00:19:52.186 friends, socialising, all of that kind of. And then the 322 00:19:52.208 --> 00:19:56.038 care experience of the moves, the many, many moves and the adaptation 323 00:19:56.134 --> 00:19:59.546 that that meant. Some of the families I lived with were very religious, so I 324 00:19:59.568 --> 00:20:02.814 was navigating this religious environment that 325 00:20:02.852 --> 00:20:06.686 said, men and women get together and then they have 326 00:20:06.708 --> 00:20:10.414 a child. And I never questioned any of that because 327 00:20:10.452 --> 00:20:13.870 I was so busy questioning my sheer existence. 328 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:19.166 I didn't navigate sexuality. I dated boys, 329 00:20:19.278 --> 00:20:22.834 I enjoyed the company of young 330 00:20:22.872 --> 00:20:26.514 men and didn't question any of that until I was well 331 00:20:26.552 --> 00:20:30.360 into my twenty s. And I remember there was a show called the Vanessa show, 332 00:20:30.810 --> 00:20:34.486 and me and a couple of friends, we applied to get on 333 00:20:34.508 --> 00:20:38.214 this show. And I'll never forget, the episode was all 334 00:20:38.252 --> 00:20:42.042 about gay marriage. And this was in the 80s when, as you said, 335 00:20:42.176 --> 00:20:45.866 queerness was so unacceptable. And Vanessa had this 336 00:20:45.888 --> 00:20:49.498 show all about gay marriage. And I remember one of my friends 337 00:20:49.664 --> 00:20:53.386 who was in the audience at the time stood up and said, it's Adam 338 00:20:53.418 --> 00:20:57.166 and Eve, not Adam and Steve. And I just turned round and looked at them 339 00:20:57.188 --> 00:21:00.974 and went, what did you just say? I 340 00:21:01.012 --> 00:21:04.594 was absolutely horrified that I had a friend 341 00:21:04.712 --> 00:21:08.290 that had that view and at no point 342 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:11.966 had we had any conversations about sexuality, 343 00:21:12.078 --> 00:21:15.714 dating, relationship. It was just assumed in 344 00:21:15.752 --> 00:21:19.446 my mind that people respected and loved each other and that it was 345 00:21:19.468 --> 00:21:23.074 all about who you was and not about who you slept 346 00:21:23.122 --> 00:21:26.950 with. And it shocked me to the core. And it probably 347 00:21:27.100 --> 00:21:30.374 was around that time that I started exploring my 348 00:21:30.412 --> 00:21:33.994 relationships with women. And I remember writing a short piece 349 00:21:34.112 --> 00:21:37.754 entitled all the good things about being in care, all the good things 350 00:21:37.792 --> 00:21:41.258 about not having a mum and dad that loved me 351 00:21:41.344 --> 00:21:44.958 and kind of raised me. And one of those things on that list was the 352 00:21:44.964 --> 00:21:48.142 fact that coming out was easy. I didn't need to 353 00:21:48.196 --> 00:21:51.978 worry about how people were going to see me. I didn't 354 00:21:51.994 --> 00:21:55.746 need to worry about a mum or a dad that loved me, that 355 00:21:55.928 --> 00:21:59.314 expected me to be a certain way. There were no 356 00:21:59.352 --> 00:22:03.140 expectations put on me. I was able to be who I wanted to be. 357 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:07.846 Do you still have contact with your sisters? Are you kind of close? And 358 00:22:08.028 --> 00:22:11.606 very close. Like I said, 359 00:22:11.708 --> 00:22:14.870 I was that naughty, mouthy, confident, 360 00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:19.110 slightly passive aggressive individual that would camp outside social services 361 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:22.842 and say, look, I'm not moving. Where's my sister? We have. Have 362 00:22:22.896 --> 00:22:26.746 such a close relationship and I'm so grateful that they are 363 00:22:26.768 --> 00:22:30.586 a part of my life. I've got nieces, I've got nephews. I don't have 364 00:22:30.608 --> 00:22:34.254 any of my own children, so I love being an auntie. I 365 00:22:34.292 --> 00:22:38.094 love having my nephew over during the summer holidays and then at the end 366 00:22:38.132 --> 00:22:41.950 saying off, you know, when my 367 00:22:42.020 --> 00:22:45.586 nephew Thomas was a baby, it was just brilliant. He'd start crying, I'll just hand 368 00:22:45.608 --> 00:22:49.426 him straight. Know. My relationship with 369 00:22:49.448 --> 00:22:53.294 my sisters means the world to me and I honestly 370 00:22:53.342 --> 00:22:56.486 don't know what I would do if I didn't have them in my life. Do 371 00:22:56.508 --> 00:23:00.262 you forgive your mum? Absolutely. I had to for my own 372 00:23:00.316 --> 00:23:03.590 mental health, for my own strength. 373 00:23:04.250 --> 00:23:08.086 It took a long time. I was angry when she 374 00:23:08.108 --> 00:23:11.274 came out of prison, the contact that we had was so 375 00:23:11.312 --> 00:23:14.390 sporadic. She would just turn up out of the blue 376 00:23:14.550 --> 00:23:18.266 sometimes and I often wouldn't know when she would be there and when 377 00:23:18.288 --> 00:23:21.974 she wouldn't. And that upset me. I would visit 378 00:23:22.022 --> 00:23:24.894 her and there would be times when she would just open the front door, say, 379 00:23:24.932 --> 00:23:27.454 what do you want? And close the front door. I mean, it was very, very 380 00:23:27.492 --> 00:23:31.230 difficult, but what I had to do, and this 381 00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:35.214 is the run up to forgiving her, I had to accept that she wasn't going 382 00:23:35.252 --> 00:23:38.530 to be the person I wanted her to be. And I honestly believe 383 00:23:38.600 --> 00:23:41.874 that part of that resilience that I've got is 384 00:23:41.912 --> 00:23:45.394 about accepting my life for what it was, 385 00:23:45.512 --> 00:23:48.726 accepting the things that I could control and the things that I can't. And I 386 00:23:48.748 --> 00:23:52.294 couldn't control my childhood and I can't control the past, but what I can 387 00:23:52.332 --> 00:23:55.974 control is my responses to those things. And my 388 00:23:56.012 --> 00:23:59.750 response to my mum was anger. I had it out with her, 389 00:23:59.820 --> 00:24:03.194 I did. And she was unable to say 390 00:24:03.232 --> 00:24:07.066 sorry. She was unable to accept what she did, regardless of her 391 00:24:07.088 --> 00:24:10.106 prison sentence. And it took a while, but I had to say, well, you know 392 00:24:10.128 --> 00:24:13.678 what? She won't. And that's going to have to be fine. It's going to have 393 00:24:13.684 --> 00:24:17.390 to be just fine. So I did forgive her for myself, not for her. 394 00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:20.686 So you've kind of taken the power back, if you like. 395 00:24:20.788 --> 00:24:24.578 Definitely taken the power back, taken back the control 396 00:24:24.744 --> 00:24:28.450 and really put myself in the driving seat of my life bit by bit. 397 00:24:28.600 --> 00:24:32.302 So, talking about your life. So you, 18, 398 00:24:32.446 --> 00:24:36.066 independent, in a flat, carving your own way in the world, 399 00:24:36.248 --> 00:24:39.926 looking after your sisters from a distance and as much as you can, keeping in 400 00:24:39.948 --> 00:24:43.622 touch, doing your degree, doing your masters, then 401 00:24:43.676 --> 00:24:47.474