WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:11.004 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:11.004 --> 00:00:14.844 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:14.844 --> 00:00:18.410 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the 4 00:00:18.410 --> 00:00:21.870 heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:25.935 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.935 --> 00:00:29.295 world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:29.295 --> 00:00:32.975 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:32.975 --> 00:00:36.460 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:40.220 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:44.074 Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.215 --> 00:00:47.114 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.574 --> 00:00:50.714 reflect, and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.410 --> 00:00:55.170 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:55.170 --> 00:00:56.070 to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.330 --> 00:01:02.945 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.725 --> 00:01:07.405 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.405 --> 00:01:11.030 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.850 --> 00:01:17.350 And today is episode 115 19 00:01:18.695 --> 00:01:22.295 with the title from stigma to strength, and I have 20 00:01:22.295 --> 00:01:26.075 the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Alexandra Parrott. 21 00:01:26.375 --> 00:01:30.150 Alexandra works in sales for 22 00:01:30.150 --> 00:01:33.910 an HR tech company that introduced the 1st team based 23 00:01:33.910 --> 00:01:36.810 psychological assessment tool to the talent market. 24 00:01:37.655 --> 00:01:41.494 When I asked Alexandra to describe her superpower, she said it is 25 00:01:41.494 --> 00:01:45.115 her empathy and fire within 26 00:01:45.350 --> 00:01:48.789 to make the world a safer place, one step at a 27 00:01:48.789 --> 00:01:52.409 time. Hello, Exandra. Welcome to the show. 28 00:01:52.704 --> 00:01:56.545 Hi, Jo. Thank you for meeting with me. That was a a groovy little 29 00:01:56.545 --> 00:02:00.325 song, that. I like that. Thank you. Yeah. I, 30 00:02:00.590 --> 00:02:03.070 yeah, I've recorded it a few years ago. I was supposed a few months ago, 31 00:02:03.070 --> 00:02:06.590 and it's, yeah. I I quite enjoyed that now. Yeah. Because gets the guest 32 00:02:06.590 --> 00:02:10.204 and get a bit jiggy before we start. Isn't it? Yeah. Very soothing voice as 33 00:02:10.204 --> 00:02:13.965 well, actually. Thank you. Yeah. People have often said I've got a bit of a 34 00:02:13.965 --> 00:02:16.864 late night radio voice. Who cares? 35 00:02:18.150 --> 00:02:21.510 Is that your dog your dog's joining in the the podcast as well? Well, she 36 00:02:21.510 --> 00:02:25.110 does like to get involved, to be honest. In in any form of conversation I 37 00:02:25.110 --> 00:02:28.685 have, she likes to have her say. And and why not? You know, I I 38 00:02:28.685 --> 00:02:32.365 think the the views of dogs are highly rated in 39 00:02:32.365 --> 00:02:36.045 terms of mental well-being, care, and, we 40 00:02:36.045 --> 00:02:39.890 know they can improve people's just whole 41 00:02:40.030 --> 00:02:43.310 whole feeling of well-being, don't they? So yeah. And she gets Why not? 42 00:02:43.370 --> 00:02:47.125 Jo Yeah. Maybe she liked the music. Maybe she liked the intro. Maybe that's 43 00:02:47.125 --> 00:02:50.905 what set her off. So 44 00:02:51.210 --> 00:02:54.890 we called this episode from stigma to strength. Tell me a bit more about yourself 45 00:02:54.890 --> 00:02:58.730 and and what what your passion is. Thank you. So, yeah, 46 00:02:58.730 --> 00:03:02.495 I suppose there's a few different angles from the stigma 47 00:03:02.495 --> 00:03:06.175 to strength. One that's personal and then one that's relevant to the 48 00:03:06.175 --> 00:03:09.730 neurodiversity movement, which I am a huge 49 00:03:09.730 --> 00:03:13.270 advocate of. So from a personal perspective, 50 00:03:13.570 --> 00:03:17.170 I've I've grown up with a lot of stigma associated with mental 51 00:03:17.170 --> 00:03:20.975 health and specific mental health condition, and I 52 00:03:20.975 --> 00:03:24.735 really wanted to use all of that negative energy to 53 00:03:24.735 --> 00:03:28.530 create something positive. And as you said earlier, try and make the world a 54 00:03:28.530 --> 00:03:32.070 safer place so that individuals that do face a lot of stigma 55 00:03:32.530 --> 00:03:35.510 feel a little bit more safe and welcomed and included. 56 00:03:36.305 --> 00:03:39.924 And that's why the neurodiversity movement really stood out to me 57 00:03:40.305 --> 00:03:43.765 because I was looking for a community 58 00:03:43.825 --> 00:03:47.480 that believed in the concept 59 00:03:47.480 --> 00:03:51.160 of turning negative stigma into something positive and seeing 60 00:03:51.160 --> 00:03:54.525 the strengths out out of something that 61 00:03:54.905 --> 00:03:57.965 has had a real negative impact on people's lives. 62 00:03:58.825 --> 00:04:02.500 And I was hoping that, you know, someone like me could belong to a 63 00:04:02.500 --> 00:04:06.099 community like that, and I didn't know what neurodiversity was or meant or what the 64 00:04:06.099 --> 00:04:09.885 umbrella term covered. So rather than just 65 00:04:09.885 --> 00:04:13.584 sort of googling it, I decided to sign up to a degree in it 66 00:04:14.285 --> 00:04:17.990 because that's the best way to learn about something and to 67 00:04:17.990 --> 00:04:21.670 understand myself and others better. So, yeah, I 68 00:04:21.670 --> 00:04:25.350 started the degree in January. I think, oh my gosh. That was a 69 00:04:25.350 --> 00:04:29.155 while back now. Yes. To learn a bit more about neurodiversity. 70 00:04:30.495 --> 00:04:33.875 So you you mentioned that you yourself have 71 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:38.440 experienced negative mental health for a lot of your a lot of your life. 72 00:04:38.440 --> 00:04:41.960 Mhmm. We find that there's still that yeah. We we this this is some 73 00:04:41.960 --> 00:04:44.764 stigma to strength, this episode, but there's a lot of stigma around 74 00:04:45.465 --> 00:04:49.305 mental health, neurodiversity, anything that people 75 00:04:49.305 --> 00:04:53.080 can't see, touch, and feel sometimes. You know? People don't are 76 00:04:53.080 --> 00:04:56.840 not aware. And I'm I'm 77 00:04:56.840 --> 00:05:00.675 sure you probably experienced people saying, well, you don't look like you've got a mental 78 00:05:00.675 --> 00:05:04.355 health condition or a mental health challenge. So people judging 79 00:05:04.355 --> 00:05:07.990 you, I guess, from from that, are they? Yeah. I think that's, there's 80 00:05:07.990 --> 00:05:11.770 there's this definite strength and weakness that comes with masking and camouflaging, 81 00:05:11.909 --> 00:05:15.325 which is a a topic that's very very prominent in the 82 00:05:15.325 --> 00:05:19.005 neurodivergent, world. And, yeah, it can 83 00:05:19.005 --> 00:05:21.810 work well in a sense that you really think that you can just get on 84 00:05:21.810 --> 00:05:25.510 through, and no one's gonna see the real me. So they're just gonna 85 00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:29.875 we're just gonna get through this to the point where, yeah, you either get or 86 00:05:29.875 --> 00:05:33.715 you don't look like you have x y zed. But and I think 87 00:05:33.715 --> 00:05:37.155 at the same time, kind of unrevealing the taking off the 88 00:05:37.155 --> 00:05:40.260 mask, you think that people are gonna question your capabilities? 89 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.400 Because in the world of business, people are often seen as just a number or 90 00:05:44.400 --> 00:05:48.035 a revenue generator, you know, a product of performance, 91 00:05:48.175 --> 00:05:51.775 and anything that has stigma associated with it comes 92 00:05:51.775 --> 00:05:55.555 with that that feeling or thought or that bias that 93 00:05:55.919 --> 00:05:59.539 that hinders your capabilities rather than seeing the strength behind. 94 00:05:59.840 --> 00:06:03.440 So yeah. As the world moved 95 00:06:03.440 --> 00:06:07.065 on, yes, You mentioned, I think, in the show notes, you were 19, where 96 00:06:07.065 --> 00:06:10.905 there was was first sort of uncovered, and you were 97 00:06:10.905 --> 00:06:14.400 able to talk about it and and not without giving your age away. That sounds 98 00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:18.000 like a few years ago. And I would talk to you guys. Do you 99 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.815 detect a different a different attitude in the workplace today? Depends which 100 00:06:21.815 --> 00:06:24.795 workplace you're in, I think. Some some are still miles behind. 101 00:06:25.335 --> 00:06:29.070 Actually, my the founder of the company sorry. I'm trying to fiddle with a 102 00:06:29.070 --> 00:06:32.909 pen subtly, and I just threw it across the desk. The founder of 103 00:06:32.909 --> 00:06:36.130 the company I work at now was actually the first person that I 104 00:06:36.590 --> 00:06:40.395 was open to about my mental health 105 00:06:40.615 --> 00:06:44.295 before joining and in the interview process. Helped that he's a 106 00:06:44.295 --> 00:06:48.139 psychologist and has a background in CBT and therapy and 107 00:06:48.139 --> 00:06:51.820 things like that, so I just naturally felt confident and comfortable enough to 108 00:06:51.820 --> 00:06:55.405 speak to him about it. But I do think that there are still workplaces that 109 00:06:55.405 --> 00:06:58.925 are miles behind, and it is not the workplace. It's the individuals that you interact 110 00:06:58.925 --> 00:07:02.604 with each day. Each of them will hold their own thoughts and 111 00:07:02.604 --> 00:07:06.210 feelings and bias and can make an 112 00:07:06.210 --> 00:07:09.590 entire workplace difficult because of that. Mhmm. 113 00:07:09.810 --> 00:07:13.175 Does does your work impact your mental 114 00:07:13.175 --> 00:07:16.935 health, or is it a way of, I 115 00:07:16.935 --> 00:07:20.695 don't know, having an outlet to do something different and distract your 116 00:07:20.695 --> 00:07:24.150 mind? Sometimes being busy, having an 117 00:07:24.150 --> 00:07:27.910 activity, engaging in something can can positively impact your 118 00:07:27.910 --> 00:07:30.810 mental health. But having a stressful job or having 119 00:07:31.414 --> 00:07:35.175 colleagues or a lack of psychological safety can make it a more 120 00:07:35.175 --> 00:07:38.534 negative experience. So are you do you find work as a positive experience 121 00:07:38.534 --> 00:07:42.370 generally? It's an interesting question because, in 122 00:07:42.370 --> 00:07:45.910 neurodiverse in the neurodiversity world, they often talk about 123 00:07:46.050 --> 00:07:49.815 how the environment around an individual can impact 124 00:07:49.955 --> 00:07:53.475 that individual. So they could either have a really negative 125 00:07:53.475 --> 00:07:56.915 experience. So let's say someone with ADHD or someone with 126 00:07:56.915 --> 00:08:00.330 autism or a mental health condition, They could join an environment 127 00:08:00.710 --> 00:08:04.550 and have a really positive experience and still have that condition, or they can 128 00:08:04.550 --> 00:08:08.175 join an environment and have a really negative experience, but they're still an individual with 129 00:08:08.175 --> 00:08:11.775 ADHD and autism. So it's almost like it's not the condition that 130 00:08:11.775 --> 00:08:15.580 is causing just causing that. It's the environment around them 131 00:08:15.580 --> 00:08:19.360 and the people around them. And I was actually always told 132 00:08:19.500 --> 00:08:23.225 with my mental health condition to to not have a stressful 133 00:08:23.225 --> 00:08:26.925 job. Try and find something that's not too fast paced, not too stressful, 134 00:08:27.145 --> 00:08:30.665 and they certainly would have included sales in that world 135 00:08:30.665 --> 00:08:34.220 of fast paced and stressful and a hinder to my 136 00:08:34.220 --> 00:08:37.980 mental health. But, again, I think it's it's less about the job 137 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:41.625 role and more about the environment around you, And that 138 00:08:41.625 --> 00:08:45.385 Thomas Armstrong speaks a lot about ideal jobs for 139 00:08:45.945 --> 00:08:49.540 that will make make an individual with ADHD or autism 140 00:08:49.540 --> 00:08:53.060 thrive because of their strengths, so their strengths would make them great at this 141 00:08:53.060 --> 00:08:56.500 job. And I think that's still a key element of, actually, the working 142 00:08:56.500 --> 00:09:00.194 environment around them is what can impact them, not 143 00:09:00.194 --> 00:09:03.795 necessarily the job itself. Yeah. I agree. I mean, even though I I 144 00:09:03.795 --> 00:09:07.460 work alone well, so my wife and I work together, but, yeah, we we we 145 00:09:07.540 --> 00:09:10.580 we're a micro business. But but I'm also, 146 00:09:11.220 --> 00:09:14.120 involved with the professional association, and I chair the board. 147 00:09:14.705 --> 00:09:18.545 And I'm very keen from a cultural perspective is that people can can 148 00:09:18.545 --> 00:09:21.825 bring that that whole self to work. That's I hate that buzzword because Oh, I 149 00:09:21.825 --> 00:09:25.660 know. People wouldn't doubt me. What's that mean? What's that mean? 150 00:09:25.660 --> 00:09:29.500 Yeah. Bring yourself to work. But I'm very keen that if I'm 151 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:32.515 having a a bad week or I'm having a bad day, or I just say 152 00:09:32.755 --> 00:09:36.595 stop, I can't, it there's too much buzz in my ears, too 153 00:09:36.595 --> 00:09:40.279 much noise. Just better press the pause button and say, look, give me give me 154 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.000 a couple of days. I just need to sort this out, sort my life out, 155 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.680 get this back on track. I can't over I don't wanna overload. So having 156 00:09:46.680 --> 00:09:49.935 having working with people around you where you can just without have to go into 157 00:09:49.935 --> 00:09:53.694 detail, just say, give me 5, give me a day, give me 2 days. Just 158 00:09:54.334 --> 00:09:57.720 I'm I'm I'm here. Just give me some space. You don't you do offer to 159 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:01.560 help me. I'm I'm I'm fine. Just need to say, okay. I'm here 160 00:10:01.560 --> 00:10:05.404 if you need me. Bye. And it's it's it's so when you talk about 161 00:10:05.404 --> 00:10:09.165 the environment, the the colleagues, the environment, the culture in which you 162 00:10:09.165 --> 00:10:12.925 work, it's it's better to have those conversations without them being 163 00:10:12.925 --> 00:10:16.560 huge conversations all the time, isn't it? Just knowing that that's not another anxiety you've 164 00:10:16.560 --> 00:10:20.240 got across. A 100000%. My colleague from 165 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.000 my previous role, worked for SAP, and my colleague, Hannah 166 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:27.765 Oakford, she was the one that actually spoke about making the world 167 00:10:28.005 --> 00:10:31.365 like, different corners of the world a safer place, and she also had a tagline 168 00:10:31.365 --> 00:10:34.690 of bringing your worst self to work. Like, we want you to feel like you 169 00:10:34.690 --> 00:10:37.730 can bring your worst self to work. And I suppose that is a spin on 170 00:10:37.730 --> 00:10:41.350 the authentic self because there's nothing worse than 171 00:10:41.730 --> 00:10:45.454 having, you know, something that's going on, whether there's Joanne actual 172 00:10:45.454 --> 00:10:49.055 thing going on or it's just a feeling that you're sat in, and you're really 173 00:10:49.055 --> 00:10:52.880 trying to force yourself to work and force yourself to play this, 174 00:10:52.880 --> 00:10:56.500 you know, play this role or have this mask on. 175 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:01.280 Actually, I've I've experienced that myself. I I lost my mum 2 years ago, and 176 00:11:01.280 --> 00:11:04.975 I'd just come back from maternity leave. And I was 177 00:11:04.975 --> 00:11:08.495 so stressed. I was like, I've just taken maternity leave, and I've just come 178 00:11:08.495 --> 00:11:12.060 back. I can't then take off any more time for 179 00:11:12.060 --> 00:11:15.740 compassion leave or anything. I wanted to take time off before she passed 180 00:11:15.740 --> 00:11:19.495 because I knew it was happening. And, actually, the workplace, it 181 00:11:19.495 --> 00:11:22.955 was a brand new manager that had taken over whilst I was on mat leave, 182 00:11:23.015 --> 00:11:25.655 and he was like, this is just a job at the end of the of 183 00:11:25.655 --> 00:11:29.399 the day. Like, we're we're just selling software. You take the 184 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:33.000 time to do what you need to do. And I 185 00:11:33.079 --> 00:11:36.545 I'd never sort of I hadn't had many managers before that. But 186 00:11:36.545 --> 00:11:40.385 just that one sentence that they said to me, I knew 187 00:11:40.385 --> 00:11:43.930 that I didn't have to worry because, you know, that the 188 00:11:43.930 --> 00:11:47.690 job was was irrelevant at that point. Ideally, as a 189 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:51.310 salesperson, you just come in and you start making revenue, but it was the manager 190 00:11:51.485 --> 00:11:54.704 and the working environment around me that made me feel 191 00:11:55.084 --> 00:11:58.865 safe. And and, yeah, that was invaluable 192 00:11:59.325 --> 00:12:02.670 at that point in my life, for sure. Yeah. I could completely relate to that. 193 00:12:02.670 --> 00:12:06.110 About a year well, just over a year, probably or 14 months 194 00:12:06.110 --> 00:12:09.550 ago, all four of our parents, so 195 00:12:09.550 --> 00:12:13.265 Marie's mom and dad, my mom and dad, had a 196 00:12:13.265 --> 00:12:17.025 spell in the hospital. And at one stage, we had 197 00:12:17.025 --> 00:12:20.550 a parent in different wards on different floors of the same 198 00:12:20.550 --> 00:12:24.250 hospital, and we were visiting them up and down the lift. And 199 00:12:24.631 --> 00:12:28.345 Jo just if if if we had both been working for 200 00:12:28.345 --> 00:12:31.945 an employer, we both kind of felt that we would 201 00:12:31.945 --> 00:12:35.790 have pushed their patients probably to 202 00:12:35.790 --> 00:12:39.230 the edge. Because at some point, you have a job to do, and and no 203 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:43.070 matter how flexible an employer can be, they also have 204 00:12:43.070 --> 00:12:46.815 to there has to be some boundary somewhere, doesn't there? And what 205 00:12:47.055 --> 00:12:50.495 but the ability to just get up and go 206 00:12:50.495 --> 00:12:53.720 now when when we needed to without having to explain. 207 00:12:54.340 --> 00:12:58.100 So it gives obviously, we we had income challenges. We had to 208 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:01.334 earn a living as a freelancer, as a as a self employed person, but we 209 00:13:01.334 --> 00:13:04.774 had we weren't constrained by somebody else's 210 00:13:04.774 --> 00:13:08.235 rule. And when Marie's mom eventually passed away 211 00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:12.490 just over a year ago, we she was able to take all the time she 212 00:13:12.490 --> 00:13:16.090 needed, and we as a family were able to do that. She could able to 213 00:13:16.090 --> 00:13:19.835 support her dad and and work and so on. And we we just we sat 214 00:13:19.835 --> 00:13:23.675 here one night, and it's apparently Jo difficult working 215 00:13:23.675 --> 00:13:27.310 for an organization. Or or the organization that Marie used to work 216 00:13:27.310 --> 00:13:31.070 for especially because they were well, I'm not saying they were 217 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:34.715 terrible, but they just weren't very progressive. They weren't maybe kind of 218 00:13:35.275 --> 00:13:39.035 a a rule based HR world where this is the rule. This is what you 219 00:13:39.035 --> 00:13:42.255 get. Any more than that, it's unpaid or it's 220 00:13:42.810 --> 00:13:46.650 conversations about, are you going back to work? So, yeah, you're right. The environment 221 00:13:46.650 --> 00:13:49.790 plays a huge thing, and not having to have that worry 222 00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:54.285 is is hugely, supportive of it. And I I think 223 00:13:54.285 --> 00:13:58.065 as well, like, the the experiences that we're covering are experiences 224 00:13:58.204 --> 00:14:01.839 that anyone can have, whether they've got a mental health condition or neurodivergent 225 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:05.579 or not. And it's the concept that inclusion really is an 226 00:14:05.579 --> 00:14:09.345 individual led world because, you know, you 227 00:14:09.345 --> 00:14:12.464 can try and be inclusive to people with mental health conditions and to people with 228 00:14:12.464 --> 00:14:16.200 neurodivergent conditions, but then there's so many things that can 229 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:19.420 happen in one's life that will completely change the course 230 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:23.775 of their life, and and they will need some leeway and breathing space 231 00:14:23.775 --> 00:14:27.615 from their employer. And you can't preempt or preplan for that. You 232 00:14:27.615 --> 00:14:30.675 have to just, you know, work with each individual 233 00:14:31.350 --> 00:14:35.050 as an individual, which is the same for the the neurodivergent 234 00:14:35.350 --> 00:14:39.029 world, to be honest, because I think there's I can 235 00:14:39.029 --> 00:14:42.615 see things happening in the world, but it's still very 236 00:14:42.615 --> 00:14:46.214 much focused on a stereotypical profile of 237 00:14:46.214 --> 00:14:49.814 what an individual with ADHD looks like, for example. And there's a 238 00:14:49.814 --> 00:14:52.780 famous quote, and I can't, for the life of me, remember 239 00:14:53.640 --> 00:14:57.480 who said it, but it's this quote itself has stuck with me, that if 240 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:01.165 you meet one person with autism, you've only met one person with autism, 241 00:15:01.625 --> 00:15:05.305 and you can extend that across the neurodiverse space. And I think, 242 00:15:05.305 --> 00:15:08.990 again, there's so much focus and energy 243 00:15:08.990 --> 00:15:12.830 and effort to be neuro neuroinclusive as a workspace, but 244 00:15:12.830 --> 00:15:16.265 they're really just looking at the conditions underneath the neurodiversity 245 00:15:16.405 --> 00:15:20.245 umbrella umbrella rather than the individuals. And if you take a step 246 00:15:20.245 --> 00:15:24.089 back, it's like, okay. Yes. It's a different space to learn about, different 247 00:15:24.089 --> 00:15:27.550 worlds to learn about. They're still individuals with their own individual 248 00:15:27.610 --> 00:15:31.390 experiences and challenges. Not everybody not everybody with ADHD 249 00:15:31.450 --> 00:15:34.805 needs a fidget spinner, for example, and then they're gonna be absolutely 250 00:15:34.865 --> 00:15:38.165 fine. It's it's an individual's 251 00:15:38.465 --> 00:15:41.765 journey. Yeah. Although I 252 00:15:42.225 --> 00:15:45.270 I went I I sat in on a a training session or no. It was 253 00:15:45.270 --> 00:15:49.050 a it was a workshop day with another company once, and they put out 254 00:15:49.590 --> 00:15:53.375 fidget spinners and and tactile play toys, those 255 00:15:53.375 --> 00:15:56.895 sort of things, on the tables and then and I found myself with a fidget 256 00:15:56.895 --> 00:16:00.699 spinner. And what I realized by the end of the day is because I had 257 00:16:00.699 --> 00:16:04.379 the fidget spinner and I was playing with it all the time. I didn't pick 258 00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:08.165 my phone up. Jo I kinda learned or realized to 259 00:16:08.165 --> 00:16:12.005 myself that my phone had become my fidget spinner. The playing with 260 00:16:12.005 --> 00:16:15.685 it, the the the reclusing into it, the the the rhythmic, the 261 00:16:15.685 --> 00:16:19.430 doomscrolling, whatever it may be. I I found out, Ross, I didn't 262 00:16:19.430 --> 00:16:22.837 appreciate that I needed to have that kind of something in my Joanne. 263 00:16:23.830 --> 00:16:27.645 The fidget spinner worked. And my wife, Marie, she she says I 264 00:16:27.865 --> 00:16:30.505 I I play with my nails a lot and clicking them and and and sort 265 00:16:30.505 --> 00:16:33.545 of she said, oh, I'm always fiddling my nose. She she keeps saying, stop it. 266 00:16:33.545 --> 00:16:36.800 Stop playing me now. Stop playing me. I said, well, no. 267 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:41.500 I can't promise not to stop playing around now because it kind of 268 00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:44.880 my brain wants to do it. And, you know, I'm not saying it's stimming or 269 00:16:45.555 --> 00:16:48.275 or or pitch particularly in that sort of air in that sort of zone, but 270 00:16:48.275 --> 00:16:51.815 it's definitely I I've got a need to have something going on. 271 00:16:54.430 --> 00:16:57.710 I don't know. That that that's very similar to having a, as I say, some 272 00:16:57.710 --> 00:17:01.285 sort of stimulation or something for the brain. When the 273 00:17:01.285 --> 00:17:04.805 brain's idle, it needs something to be doing in the background. Otherwise, it just runs 274 00:17:04.805 --> 00:17:08.025 away or just, like, crazy. So Yeah. Yeah. I completely relate to that. And 275 00:17:08.325 --> 00:17:11.589 having a lab the art really have a fidget spinner, to be honest, because I 276 00:17:11.589 --> 00:17:14.810 I did I've I've learned to fidget below the camera 277 00:17:15.589 --> 00:17:19.365 level, so it's not obvious, But I do it with a pen, and the pen 278 00:17:19.365 --> 00:17:23.145 flies. So to be honest, I probably could do with investing in 1. 279 00:17:24.565 --> 00:17:28.230 Yeah. And, yeah, when I was growing up, people 280 00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:32.070 would sit there and doodle in their notepads, wouldn't they? They'd be drawing always 281 00:17:32.070 --> 00:17:35.755 doodling something, always writing something when the teacher's talking. What are you doing? I'm just 282 00:17:35.755 --> 00:17:39.275 doodling. What are you doodling for? Pay attention. It's like but that's the same sort 283 00:17:39.275 --> 00:17:43.035 of thing, but we just didn't have an appreciation of this need 284 00:17:43.035 --> 00:17:46.490 for the the brain to have a another outlet somehow. And, 285 00:17:46.889 --> 00:17:50.330 yeah, I've actually, look at my desk. It's messy, and I've I've got I've got 286 00:17:50.330 --> 00:17:54.125 these dice, which you you know Yeah. If you're listening to the podcast, you 287 00:17:54.125 --> 00:17:57.805 can't see them. But they're 2. They're fitness dice, and one's got the number of 288 00:17:57.805 --> 00:17:59.725 reps on it, and one's got the exercise you have to do. So if you 289 00:17:59.725 --> 00:18:02.909 roll the dice, it says how many crunches you gotta do. Not that I would 290 00:18:02.909 --> 00:18:06.669 do, but I I often sit and play with these. Well, a couple of Duracell 291 00:18:06.669 --> 00:18:10.505 batteries on my desk because I'm often playing with these Duracell batteries. But it's 292 00:18:10.585 --> 00:18:14.424 it it is. It's having that that stimulation as a as a 293 00:18:14.424 --> 00:18:17.804 proper toy or or something else. And, yeah, 294 00:18:18.669 --> 00:18:22.270 when you raised that and mentioned it, I completely relate to it. Yeah. No. 295 00:18:22.270 --> 00:18:25.870 Exactly. And I think, there's a lot of there's a lot of ways that we 296 00:18:25.870 --> 00:18:29.375 can make the working environment more inclusive to 297 00:18:29.375 --> 00:18:32.755 everyone because the whole working from your desk, 9 to 5, 298 00:18:33.215 --> 00:18:36.870 in the office 5 days a week, you know, expected to do 299 00:18:36.870 --> 00:18:40.309 x, y, zed. Everybody works in different ways. 300 00:18:40.309 --> 00:18:44.070 Everybody's brain needs different things. And that's 301 00:18:44.070 --> 00:18:47.575 sort of the main concept of neurodiversity, is 302 00:18:47.575 --> 00:18:51.274 to look less at conditions and traits and more at 303 00:18:51.495 --> 00:18:54.930 the value in having diverse minds and different minds 304 00:19:04.184 --> 00:19:07.885 you're excluded, sort of thing. And I do think 305 00:19:08.424 --> 00:19:12.025 working environments are a little bit more flexible than they were because we're sat at 306 00:19:12.025 --> 00:19:15.690 our desks at home, fiddling with whatever is on our 307 00:19:15.690 --> 00:19:19.529 desk. I I I do 308 00:19:19.529 --> 00:19:22.915 wonder. You know, we talk about people who have neurodivergency 309 00:19:23.215 --> 00:19:26.975 or neurospicy, whatever whatever phrase 310 00:19:26.975 --> 00:19:30.755 you you people say these days. But I often wonder who who is 311 00:19:31.870 --> 00:19:35.330 neurotypical? Who is that one person on the bell curve of normality 312 00:19:35.790 --> 00:19:39.090 that is typical? What does what does what does neurotypical mean? 313 00:19:39.945 --> 00:19:43.705 I I'm not die I haven't been diagnosed with autism, ADHD. I don't 314 00:19:43.705 --> 00:19:47.225 particularly think I've got an extreme case of anything if I have 315 00:19:47.225 --> 00:19:50.980 it, But I have traits and go, yeah. I do 316 00:19:50.980 --> 00:19:53.720 that. Yeah. I do that. But I wouldn't want to 317 00:19:54.419 --> 00:19:58.144 declare myself or identify the origin. 318 00:19:58.144 --> 00:20:01.745 But I often think, well, what is it, really? Is it 319 00:20:01.745 --> 00:20:05.140 just this broad spectrum where 320 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:08.899 everybody's on it somewhere, and it's just towards the edges, 321 00:20:08.899 --> 00:20:12.340 you have different different needs? And we just have to make sure that we're treating 322 00:20:12.340 --> 00:20:15.845 people fairly, because who is typical? Who is normal these 323 00:20:15.845 --> 00:20:18.885 days? Well, I think that's a really good point because I think outside of the 324 00:20:18.885 --> 00:20:22.270 self advocacy groups of, say, individuals with autism, which 325 00:20:22.670 --> 00:20:26.350 are thriving communities that are doing incredible work and 326 00:20:26.350 --> 00:20:30.190 same with ADHD, dyslexia and everything I feel like neurodiversity is a 327 00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:32.475 social movement that is finally battling against the sense of norm. And the more battling 328 00:20:32.475 --> 00:20:36.235 against the sense of norm. And the more reading that I do in this degree, 329 00:20:36.235 --> 00:20:39.780 the more that I'm like, yeah, actually, what is normal? And where did 330 00:20:39.940 --> 00:20:43.460 even come from? Why do we always have to fit in this box? And 331 00:20:43.460 --> 00:20:47.240 Professor Amanda Kirby and, Melanie Francis, they have a Do It Solutions 332 00:20:47.540 --> 00:20:50.965 organization and they said, we're all neurodiverse. They make that 333 00:20:50.965 --> 00:20:54.645 statement because, yeah, neurodiversity is the concept of us all 334 00:20:54.645 --> 00:20:58.325 having different minds operating in different ways, thinking, feeling, 335 00:20:58.325 --> 00:21:01.809 behaving, And and and that's that's 336 00:21:01.809 --> 00:21:05.590 how, you know, the world thrives. If we were all the same, gosh. 337 00:21:06.385 --> 00:21:09.525 Well, we Yeah. Long conversation, would we? 338 00:21:10.945 --> 00:21:13.205 No. And, you know, you think about 339 00:21:15.120 --> 00:21:18.820 things like Myers Briggs and those sort of personality testing and dyspophobia. 340 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.375 Whether you're a fan of those or not, you know, the concept of 341 00:21:22.375 --> 00:21:26.135 introverts, extroverts, all those kind of theories, Carl Jung and all 342 00:21:26.135 --> 00:21:29.860 these sort of people. You think about this sort of personality 343 00:21:29.860 --> 00:21:32.919 types. And I know you work for a psychological assessment organization. 344 00:21:33.620 --> 00:21:37.220 But that really is just realizing that people's brains think 345 00:21:37.220 --> 00:21:40.845 differently. And we're trying to we're trying to work out this 346 00:21:40.845 --> 00:21:44.145 is your type of thinking style. This is your type of personality. 347 00:21:44.605 --> 00:21:48.130 What role is gonna work best for you? Where are you gonna struggle? And I 348 00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:51.970 guess what you're doing in your psychological testing around teams is which stars 349 00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:55.270 are gonna clash, which stars are gonna accelerate each other, 350 00:21:55.570 --> 00:21:59.285 group think, challenge, stand out. So it's 351 00:21:59.285 --> 00:22:02.745 looking for the dynamics and team to get a balance. So I think 352 00:22:03.285 --> 00:22:06.990 neurodivergency is is just recognizing what we've been talking all along 353 00:22:07.370 --> 00:22:11.210 about these different personality types and different interests and how we react to the 354 00:22:11.210 --> 00:22:14.835 world. And, yeah, I I I fully accept there are people who 355 00:22:14.835 --> 00:22:18.615 have, on the ASD, who have 356 00:22:18.835 --> 00:22:22.350 more extremes, more complex needs, more 357 00:22:22.350 --> 00:22:26.129 support needed. But most people are kind of able 358 00:22:26.350 --> 00:22:29.924 to come with life or whatever the way they do once they understand 359 00:22:30.544 --> 00:22:33.345 who they are. And I think some of that is just down to self acknowledgement, 360 00:22:33.345 --> 00:22:36.990 isn't it, where you you figure out what who you are, what 361 00:22:36.990 --> 00:22:40.590 matters to you, what impacts you, how you can support yourself, and then how you 362 00:22:40.590 --> 00:22:43.950 can advocate for what I need with others. I think that have it creating that 363 00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:47.595 voice, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, growing up in a world of stigma, you 364 00:22:47.595 --> 00:22:51.195 lose that sense of self advocacy and self esteem. It's something that we really have 365 00:22:51.195 --> 00:22:54.700 to work even harder than others on to to build it up. 366 00:22:54.940 --> 00:22:58.399 And I've actually heard some amazing stories outside of the workplace 367 00:22:58.539 --> 00:23:01.899 of individuals that have more extreme forms on the ASD spectrum 368 00:23:01.899 --> 00:23:02.399 and, 369 00:23:07.035 --> 00:23:10.830 a nonverbal and have autism, and and they have been 370 00:23:10.830 --> 00:23:14.530 placed in an environment that has been adjusted to them 371 00:23:15.070 --> 00:23:18.750 and it's had an incredibly 372 00:23:18.750 --> 00:23:22.565 positive impact to the point where some, not that this would work for all, 373 00:23:22.565 --> 00:23:26.085 but some children that are non verbal with autism have even 374 00:23:26.085 --> 00:23:29.460 spoken and said a word when they've been placed in an 375 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:32.520 environment that is sort of adjusted and built around 376 00:23:32.820 --> 00:23:36.419 them. But, yeah, in terms of the personality test, 377 00:23:36.419 --> 00:23:40.025 it was strange. I was doing reading for my degree 378 00:23:40.085 --> 00:23:43.845 in neurodiversity, and it was the first time that my both 379 00:23:43.845 --> 00:23:47.225 worlds came together because there was information about personality 380 00:23:47.284 --> 00:23:50.950 tests and the concept of the norm and and how this all came about. And 381 00:23:50.950 --> 00:23:54.390 the Myers Briggs personality test in particular, the origins of 382 00:23:54.390 --> 00:23:57.215 it were questionable. 383 00:23:58.154 --> 00:24:01.674 I really had no idea where they'd all come from. I suppose you don't just 384 00:24:01.674 --> 00:24:04.715 sort of sit back and think about that in a in a day to day 385 00:24:04.715 --> 00:24:07.310 life, And it was really just testing 386 00:24:08.570 --> 00:24:12.350 the how safe the organization 387 00:24:12.650 --> 00:24:16.355 would be to hire this individual from a kind 388 00:24:16.355 --> 00:24:20.055 of mental health perspective. And 389 00:24:20.915 --> 00:24:24.679 it it did get me thinking about how accessible and inclusive some 390 00:24:24.679 --> 00:24:28.480 of the personality test world is. I mean, we go from the 391 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:32.215 big five and I think I've kind of joined the company with a 392 00:24:32.215 --> 00:24:35.654 more inclusive, accessible lens of trying to make that talent 393 00:24:35.654 --> 00:24:39.495 assessment space a world where you can have, like, 394 00:24:39.495 --> 00:24:43.210 strength profiles and not look at whether an individual's 395 00:24:43.210 --> 00:24:46.570 good or bad or if they're right or wrong or can or can't perform a 396 00:24:46.570 --> 00:24:50.005 job, which is what most competency based assessments do. 397 00:24:50.625 --> 00:24:54.385 But as you said, it's it's being more strategic in in the world 398 00:24:54.385 --> 00:24:58.210 of hiring and selection. And looking at the team that you have today 399 00:24:58.210 --> 00:25:01.970 and the different kind of personalities and preferences and 400 00:25:01.970 --> 00:25:05.774 values, thinking, okay. Actually, let's let's find 401 00:25:05.774 --> 00:25:09.475