WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:10.975 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:10.975 --> 00:00:14.495 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm 3 00:00:14.495 --> 00:00:18.170 Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into 4 00:00:18.170 --> 00:00:21.870 the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:25.935 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.935 --> 00:00:29.295 world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:29.295 --> 00:00:33.055 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:33.055 --> 00:00:36.420 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:36.800 --> 00:00:40.180 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:44.065 Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.364 --> 00:00:48.144 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, 12 00:00:48.524 --> 00:00:52.030 and inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.570 --> 00:00:55.530 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.629 --> 00:00:57.285 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.425 --> 00:01:02.965 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.665 --> 00:01:07.450 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.450 --> 00:01:10.990 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.945 --> 00:01:18.384 And today is episode 116 with the 19 00:01:18.384 --> 00:01:22.210 title, igniting change from the top. And 20 00:01:22.210 --> 00:01:25.590 I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Mark Bateman. 21 00:01:26.290 --> 00:01:29.970 Mark is the CEO of Wequill and author of 22 00:01:29.970 --> 00:01:33.565 Disruptive Leadership. When I asked Mark to describe his 23 00:01:33.565 --> 00:01:37.325 superpower, he said, he is incredibly insightful when 24 00:01:37.325 --> 00:01:40.625 coaching others and able to build trust very quickly 25 00:01:41.130 --> 00:01:44.590 and get to the root of the challenge, also 26 00:01:44.890 --> 00:01:48.515 incredibly quickly. Hello, Mark. Welcome to Jo. Yeah. 27 00:01:48.515 --> 00:01:52.195 Pleasure. Brilliant. I hear you're in Malta. That's a lovely part of the 28 00:01:52.195 --> 00:01:55.895 world. Yes. I recommend it, especially if anybody's currently 29 00:01:56.115 --> 00:01:59.690 under gray skies. Looking out the window here in, 30 00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:03.530 sunny UK, not wind and rain and floods everywhere. So 31 00:02:03.610 --> 00:02:06.750 oh, yeah. Envious. Envious. So, Mark, 32 00:02:07.765 --> 00:02:10.824 igniting change for the top, tell me about that. 33 00:02:11.898 --> 00:02:15.409 Jo I I I think I generally believe that leaders play 34 00:02:15.970 --> 00:02:19.730 well, self evidenced really, but leaders play an incredibly important role in 35 00:02:19.730 --> 00:02:23.569 not only our society, but our lives. And whether we are a leader or we 36 00:02:23.569 --> 00:02:27.075 follow leaders, Leaders are those that influence 37 00:02:27.075 --> 00:02:30.754 outcomes in some way. And it tends to be leaders that are top of 38 00:02:30.754 --> 00:02:34.275 organizations. And therefore, really what the 39 00:02:34.275 --> 00:02:38.080 leader or leadership team says, this is the direction we're going in, and 40 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.640 this is how we all want to behave together. This is the culture you want 41 00:02:40.640 --> 00:02:44.020 to build. That tends to be what we tend to follow. So 42 00:02:44.335 --> 00:02:47.935 very much changes both at the top, but also led from the top. Are 43 00:02:47.935 --> 00:02:51.695 people born leaders? Well well, that's the age old question, 44 00:02:51.695 --> 00:02:55.459 isn't it? You know, I did a master's in leadership coaching, and 45 00:02:55.459 --> 00:02:58.120 it it was one of the really key questions that we looked at. 46 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:02.905 I think that some have a personality type or traits that are 47 00:03:02.905 --> 00:03:06.585 maybe more suited, shall I say, to leadership. But 48 00:03:06.585 --> 00:03:10.200 others find themselves in leadership positions that never in a 1000000 years 49 00:03:10.200 --> 00:03:13.880 dreamt that they would be influencing others. So maybe there's an 50 00:03:13.880 --> 00:03:17.295 aspect of both nature and nurture, but actually many 51 00:03:17.515 --> 00:03:21.275 become leaders because they believe something powerful enough that they want 52 00:03:21.275 --> 00:03:24.900 to drive change in some way, and they find themselves as a de facto leader 53 00:03:24.900 --> 00:03:28.580 and then learn the skills of leadership in the process. Yes. And you say that, 54 00:03:28.580 --> 00:03:31.940 become a de facto leader. A lot of people kind of end up, as you 55 00:03:31.940 --> 00:03:35.735 say, in leadership through progression, through 56 00:03:35.735 --> 00:03:39.415 opportunity. It's not always a tactical or 57 00:03:39.415 --> 00:03:43.250 strategic move. It's sometimes top top of the pile stuff. You 58 00:03:43.250 --> 00:03:47.010 know? You you're last one standing sometimes. For sure. Yeah. You you have 59 00:03:47.010 --> 00:03:49.489 a you have a you see the world in a certain way or you have 60 00:03:49.489 --> 00:03:53.075 a certain ability or capability or a frustration or an 61 00:03:53.075 --> 00:03:56.855 anger or an excitement, and you take the lead. Literally, you influence. 62 00:03:56.915 --> 00:04:00.194 So you desire to drive that change. And whether you've got a capital l or 63 00:04:00.194 --> 00:04:03.910 a lowercase l, it doesn't really doesn't really matter. And it's not just in organizations 64 00:04:03.910 --> 00:04:07.370 either. Right? It's any aspect of community, society, in the family. 65 00:04:07.750 --> 00:04:10.390 You can be the oldest. You can be the youngest. It doesn't it doesn't actually 66 00:04:10.390 --> 00:04:13.834 make any difference whatsoever. You could be a leader in one sphere and not a 67 00:04:13.834 --> 00:04:17.595 leader in another. So it's not like you are the leader and or you're 68 00:04:17.595 --> 00:04:21.399 not. It's very context driven as well. Yeah. I can relate to that. Sometimes I 69 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:25.159 wanna take my hat off and, sit at the back, 70 00:04:25.159 --> 00:04:28.884 and sometimes I wanna march at the front and, and 71 00:04:28.884 --> 00:04:32.724 inspire. You know, I I can it's a bit like playing some 72 00:04:32.724 --> 00:04:36.500 pub games like pool or dart. Sometimes I wanna win, and sometimes I'm just 73 00:04:36.500 --> 00:04:39.699 there for a laugh and and not I don't need to win. And No. Same 74 00:04:39.699 --> 00:04:43.220 with leadership. I don't need to feel that I'm driving 75 00:04:43.220 --> 00:04:47.035 everything. It's nice to have a back seat and the shoulders drive. Surely 76 00:04:47.035 --> 00:04:50.475 as well that that's an aspect of good quality leadership is knowing when to lead 77 00:04:50.475 --> 00:04:54.014 and when to step back. It's kind of an aspect of of self awareness, really. 78 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:58.120 Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah. So how how do how do 79 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:01.340 how do organizations identify potential leaders? 80 00:05:01.895 --> 00:05:04.955 What sort of skills are they really looking for? Oh, great question. 81 00:05:05.975 --> 00:05:09.400 So there's a for me, there's almost this discussion around what makes a manager and 82 00:05:09.400 --> 00:05:12.440 what makes a leader. Right. And is there a difference between the 2? So you 83 00:05:12.440 --> 00:05:15.720 start off in your career. At what point do you become a manager? Is it 84 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:18.620 capital M or a lowercase M or at what point do you become a leader? 85 00:05:18.925 --> 00:05:22.445 So my my personal working definition is that a manager 86 00:05:22.445 --> 00:05:26.180 manages what is, and a leader takes us to what is to be. Right? So 87 00:05:26.180 --> 00:05:29.940 so a leader tends to be more future orientated, whereas a manager 88 00:05:29.940 --> 00:05:33.620 is managing the current resources in order to achieve an objective that's already been 89 00:05:33.620 --> 00:05:37.035 set. The lead is very much about the future. I think you can be a 90 00:05:37.035 --> 00:05:39.995 leader from so we're really coming back to your first question. I think almost that 91 00:05:39.995 --> 00:05:43.275 you cannot not even so much that you're born with it, but almost a sense 92 00:05:43.275 --> 00:05:46.910 that you you your family can tell straight away. You're not happy. You wanna change 93 00:05:46.910 --> 00:05:49.949 the world in some way. Right? And it Joanne be for a whole host of 94 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:53.765 different reasons versus, as you said earlier, you know, it's thrust upon you. You 95 00:05:53.765 --> 00:05:57.205 just happen to be in, depending on your perspective, the right place or the wrong 96 00:05:57.205 --> 00:06:00.390 place at the right or the wrong time. And suddenly, here you are. You've got 97 00:06:00.550 --> 00:06:04.390 responsibilities to drive some kind of outcome. You know? If you 98 00:06:04.390 --> 00:06:08.125 find yourself in a crisis situation, you're the only person who can find 99 00:06:08.125 --> 00:06:11.645 the solution. You find yourself in a leadership role whether you want it or not. 100 00:06:11.645 --> 00:06:15.405 So what makes a leader inside an organization, I think, 101 00:06:15.405 --> 00:06:18.789 is is those that are able to 102 00:06:19.569 --> 00:06:23.409 see something about the future that ultimately aligns where the organization's wanting 103 00:06:23.409 --> 00:06:27.225 to go and then can affect change, can influence others to to achieve that 104 00:06:27.305 --> 00:06:31.065 in some way. So you can be a leader without 105 00:06:31.065 --> 00:06:34.880 having the title, for sure. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm sure you would you'll agree 106 00:06:34.880 --> 00:06:38.160 with this, but we all are leaders of self, aren't we, in some of some 107 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.920 area? We're not. Then who's leading us? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lowercase l 108 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.635 or we we just follow us all the time. But Exactly. Yep. Yeah. 109 00:06:45.635 --> 00:06:49.095 Yeah. So if we look at, I suppose, the evolution 110 00:06:49.475 --> 00:06:53.310 of leadership, going back about a couple of 100 years, 111 00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:56.530 you know, it's we've gone from that sort of army 112 00:06:56.830 --> 00:07:00.595 hierarchy The hero. Command and control Yes. Type leader. Yeah. 113 00:07:00.815 --> 00:07:04.655 To what the contemporary leadership model is is more soft skills, 114 00:07:04.655 --> 00:07:08.450 more empathy, more compassion, more humanity. Yeah. And influence. I 115 00:07:08.450 --> 00:07:11.830 I appreciate we've got different styles of leadership, top down, bottom up, 116 00:07:11.970 --> 00:07:15.410 transformational, all those kind of different definitions. So you particularly 117 00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:18.735 work, from my understanding, around empowering 118 00:07:19.275 --> 00:07:22.575 female entrepreneurs, female business people, people in organizations 119 00:07:22.955 --> 00:07:26.520 around gender equity. So how do you 120 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:30.060 think if we look at the yin and the yang of femininity and masculinity, 121 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:33.895 how do you think female leaders bring a different dynamic to 122 00:07:33.895 --> 00:07:37.575 organizations? For sure. So to set a bit more context, so as the 123 00:07:37.575 --> 00:07:41.175 CEO WeQual, we work with the world's largest companies to drive gender 124 00:07:41.175 --> 00:07:44.760 equality. And to date, we work for about 350 global 125 00:07:44.760 --> 00:07:48.600 companies. We work at that sort of board c suite minus 1, minus 126 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:52.225 2 type level. We just launched a program right now for for mid managers. 127 00:07:53.085 --> 00:07:56.845 And what's fascinating so I've personally coached in the last 4 years, 128 00:07:56.845 --> 00:08:00.300 maybe about 300 women at that c suite minus 1 in these big 129 00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:04.139 global corporates. And what I've been surprised by 130 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:07.725 what I've been extremely humbled, I have to say for starters, and that I found 131 00:08:07.725 --> 00:08:11.325 myself in a position where I'm meeting these incredible leaders who 132 00:08:11.325 --> 00:08:14.765 are genuinely driving positive change within their 133 00:08:14.765 --> 00:08:18.250 companies and yet are also having to overcome the fact that they're in the 134 00:08:18.250 --> 00:08:21.389 minority as as a woman. And 135 00:08:21.850 --> 00:08:25.545 what's fascinating to see is the the journey they've had to take 136 00:08:25.605 --> 00:08:29.065 to gain success within these typically male dominated environments. 137 00:08:30.005 --> 00:08:33.660 And as a man, and for those of us who are 138 00:08:33.660 --> 00:08:36.400 listening as men, we don't always realize 139 00:08:37.100 --> 00:08:40.780 what what we do or how we behave or how we act and the 140 00:08:40.780 --> 00:08:44.225 impact that can have on others. Others. The whole definition 141 00:08:44.525 --> 00:08:47.965 of a successful leader or even a successful manager or a 142 00:08:47.965 --> 00:08:51.520 successful business leader or a successful entrepreneur or a successful 143 00:08:51.520 --> 00:08:55.120 founder, anybody, success defines success typically is through that 144 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:58.845 historical lens, where if we go back 200 years, there's 145 00:08:58.845 --> 00:09:02.625 still some of those very strong masculine perceived traits 146 00:09:02.845 --> 00:09:06.660 as to what defines success. And you can see that even 147 00:09:06.660 --> 00:09:10.500 in funding conversations. When you look at, you know, for every dollar I come with 148 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:12.980 the exact stats, and I write about this in my book. Something like for every 149 00:09:12.980 --> 00:09:16.774 dollar that's invested in the US, a man might get 38¢ back. For 150 00:09:16.774 --> 00:09:20.535 every dollar invested in women, it's 70 something cents back. 151 00:09:20.535 --> 00:09:23.940 Right? So it's more than double the return. And yet women get much less than 152 00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:27.700 5% of all of all funding. And the similar for 153 00:09:27.700 --> 00:09:31.220 for, as they call it, in in in America, you know, men of color or 154 00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:34.964 women of color, so non white, non Caucasian men, is 155 00:09:34.964 --> 00:09:38.485 much less than 1%. So there is a perception of what 156 00:09:38.485 --> 00:09:42.190 success looks like, and it looks like a Sam Bankman Fried, for example. Right? 157 00:09:42.190 --> 00:09:45.950 The founder and c CEO of FTX. It's a Mark Zuckerberg. It's an Elon 158 00:09:45.950 --> 00:09:49.625 Musk. It's a it's there's a very specific type that 159 00:09:49.625 --> 00:09:53.225 we perceive to be associated with success, and that's been 160 00:09:53.225 --> 00:09:56.920 driven through history. And that's where 161 00:09:56.920 --> 00:10:00.360 the challenge lies because, actually, there's a better return if we 162 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.120 increase the diversity pool of those that are willing 163 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:07.685 to invest in. And that works at every level through an organization from the very 164 00:10:07.825 --> 00:10:11.345 entry level right to the very, very top. Do you think there are agenda 165 00:10:11.345 --> 00:10:15.019 divides in terms of, I don't know, 166 00:10:15.019 --> 00:10:18.639 aspiration for leadership. Are men more willing to be go getters 167 00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:22.574 at an earlier age? I look I look for example. So surely even 168 00:10:22.875 --> 00:10:26.334 the term a go getter. Right? Where does that term even come from? 169 00:10:27.194 --> 00:10:30.900 Right? I mean, I'm very driven. The women that we work with are very 170 00:10:30.900 --> 00:10:34.740 driven, but the women that we work with that are very driven have had to 171 00:10:34.740 --> 00:10:38.520 learn how to show up differently because if they appear 172 00:10:39.285 --> 00:10:42.885 to behave like a Joanne, where it's okay to be a go getter, to be 173 00:10:42.885 --> 00:10:46.540 ambitious, to be driven, for a man, that's okay. But for a 174 00:10:46.540 --> 00:10:50.300 woman, there are all sorts of labels that they then receive. And 175 00:10:50.300 --> 00:10:53.600 so they've had to learn how to navigate 176 00:10:54.025 --> 00:10:57.705 the entry level 3 mid management levels. Once they get to the executive 177 00:10:57.705 --> 00:11:01.465 level, depending on the culture of the company, that that that point, maybe 178 00:11:01.465 --> 00:11:04.980 nobody sees them as a woman anymore. They're now just expects to operate as an 179 00:11:04.980 --> 00:11:08.660 executive. But all the skills they've had to learn as they've risen through 180 00:11:08.660 --> 00:11:12.435 those different grades, Like, you know, what to do when 181 00:11:12.435 --> 00:11:15.075 they're the only woman in a room, what to do when a man shuts them 182 00:11:15.075 --> 00:11:18.855 down, takes their ideas, the the the the, you know, the subject of mansplaining. 183 00:11:19.630 --> 00:11:22.850 They're being told they're they're being too bitchy, too 184 00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:26.830 ambitious, that they're not resilient enough, that they're too emotional. Whatever 185 00:11:26.830 --> 00:11:29.250 it happens to be, that women are judged. Anybody, 186 00:11:36.405 --> 00:11:40.120 interesting is that I understand the question, a go 187 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:43.720 getter. Right? For me, what's really interesting is if you 188 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.425 get any, any minority in a room, but I'm gonna focus on women because 189 00:11:47.425 --> 00:11:51.185 that's the focus that we quote, they're be they're what they talk 190 00:11:51.185 --> 00:11:54.800 about and how they behave is very, very different to the moment when a 191 00:11:54.800 --> 00:11:58.640 man walks into a room. The moment and, you know, it's probably maybe common 192 00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:01.440 sense. Maybe it's not. Maybe we've never thought about it. But the moment a man 193 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.985 walks into the room, the behavior changes, the conversation changes. Why is 194 00:12:04.985 --> 00:12:08.825 that? What would it look like if it didn't? Why does 195 00:12:08.825 --> 00:12:12.460 the conversation have to change? Just the men's behavior and language change where you could 196 00:12:12.460 --> 00:12:16.160 argue maybe it does. Right? So I was watching something from the 19 sixties 197 00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:19.105 where I think it was in Australia and a woman went into the pub and 198 00:12:19.105 --> 00:12:22.465 said, oh, women allowed to go into the pub now. And these men were, that's 199 00:12:22.465 --> 00:12:25.265 not right, is it? Oh, sorry. That was a northern accent, not an Australian accent. 200 00:12:25.265 --> 00:12:28.610 But right. Well, that's not right, is it? Because now we can't swear or now 201 00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:32.370 we so maybe men's behavior does change when a woman is in the room. But 202 00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:35.775 from a position of leadership or from a perspective of leadership, what 203 00:12:35.775 --> 00:12:39.455 defines successful leadership? And there is all this research coming out now that 204 00:12:39.455 --> 00:12:42.335 shows that actually women tend to be better leaders than men for a number of 205 00:12:42.335 --> 00:12:46.100 different reasons. One, because they've had to learn to be 206 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:49.860 more resilient because the the journey, the path to the top is far harder 207 00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:52.920 for women than it is for a Joanne. True for any underrepresented minority. 208 00:12:53.524 --> 00:12:56.745 Secondly, they have high emotion intelligence as a generalization. 209 00:12:57.285 --> 00:13:00.885 So they're better with people. They're more empathetic. They take less 210 00:13:00.885 --> 00:13:04.710 risky decisions for the company. So there were all these incredible 211 00:13:04.770 --> 00:13:08.610 strengths that come with being a woman that are more Joanne that 212 00:13:08.610 --> 00:13:11.965 feminine trait aspect that 213 00:13:12.105 --> 00:13:15.725 most men, and I don't mean this in any critical way, but because of history, 214 00:13:16.425 --> 00:13:19.565 we perceive it still as a weakness. She's too emotional. 215 00:13:20.269 --> 00:13:23.950 Hang on. Wait a minute. Why am I she being emotional? And actually more importantly, 216 00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:27.390 why is that a bad thing? Is it actually a bad thing? And I'm not 217 00:13:27.390 --> 00:13:30.485 saying all women are emotional. I'm not saying that. Right? But we know if you 218 00:13:30.485 --> 00:13:34.265 look at hormone cycles between men and women, we're pretty much steady. Right? Our testosterone 219 00:13:34.485 --> 00:13:38.245 reduces slightly over time. For a woman, just look at their hormone cycle in 1 220 00:13:38.245 --> 00:13:41.850 month. Poof. Right? So but is there a strength 221 00:13:42.310 --> 00:13:46.070 that a woman brings by being more emotional that men 222 00:13:46.070 --> 00:13:49.865 don't recognize that actually we feel almost 223 00:13:49.865 --> 00:13:53.385 defensive about I mean, to shut down in some way because we're so logical and 224 00:13:53.385 --> 00:13:57.130 rational and whatever happens to be. So there's a really interesting debate, I 225 00:13:57.130 --> 00:14:00.830 think, to be had around this definition of successful leadership 226 00:14:00.890 --> 00:14:04.730 when we talk about male traits and female. I've spent a good proportion of my 227 00:14:04.730 --> 00:14:08.525 life in male company and and more latterly in more 228 00:14:08.525 --> 00:14:12.065 female company. I I I've I've certainly seen a marked difference in 229 00:14:12.365 --> 00:14:15.860 styles, as you as you mentioned, conversations. I also 230 00:14:16.160 --> 00:14:20.000 believe that men change their their conversation. Men change the way they 231 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.699 behave when a woman walks in the room, so it's not just that way around. 232 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:27.145 Yeah. Men will suddenly become more polite or more 233 00:14:27.145 --> 00:14:30.365 charming. Right. Maybe the the feudalistic 234 00:14:30.665 --> 00:14:34.350 competitive alpha type traits tend to minimize a bit 235 00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:38.190 because they're now into impress the woman mode as well. So I see there's 236 00:14:38.190 --> 00:14:41.885 some kind of different traits come out. And so I 237 00:14:41.885 --> 00:14:45.325 think playing on that, there's a there's a there's a necessity for a really great 238 00:14:45.325 --> 00:14:49.005 balance of both the masculine and the feminine. Because 239 00:14:49.005 --> 00:14:52.649 if if half the workforce, notionally, is gender mixed, 240 00:14:53.110 --> 00:14:56.709 then having men in 241 00:14:56.709 --> 00:14:59.690 leadership positions isn't necessarily going to build trust 242 00:15:00.345 --> 00:15:03.945 and empowerment for women at lower levels. Having women in in 243 00:15:04.185 --> 00:15:07.830 or only women in the leadership will make men feel there's 244 00:15:07.830 --> 00:15:11.610 no aspirational yeah. So it's like this balance, isn't it? A 100%. 245 00:15:11.910 --> 00:15:15.610 And you're gonna have a perspective on this that I couldn't possibly 246 00:15:15.670 --> 00:15:18.795 begin to Joanne. Right? Because of the journey that you've been through. 247 00:15:19.655 --> 00:15:23.015 But we see this time and time again is is that difference. And, you know, 248 00:15:23.015 --> 00:15:26.740 I've heard so many women even talk to me where they've been invited into, for 249 00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:30.180 example, a board meeting or an executive committee meeting, and they're the only 250 00:15:30.180 --> 00:15:33.925 woman. Right? They walk into that room and how they experience it. And then 251 00:15:33.925 --> 00:15:37.685 when they speak up, what they experience, and the room goes quiet, they 252 00:15:37.685 --> 00:15:41.285 feel deeply uncomfortable, and they stop talking. This happened only with 1 one 253 00:15:41.285 --> 00:15:44.600 lady, and and she left the meeting. And after she said to the whoever was 254 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.400 running them in the chair or the CEO, you know, what happened? So, well, we 255 00:15:47.400 --> 00:15:51.245 invited you, but we didn't expect you to speak. It's like, oh my god. Like, 256 00:15:51.245 --> 00:15:54.365 it it you know, this is happening day in, day out, day in, day out. 257 00:15:54.365 --> 00:15:57.830 So how is that impacting the business? And as you say, you know, these 258 00:15:57.830 --> 00:16:01.589 companies that still there are still a number of executive committees within not only 259 00:16:01.589 --> 00:16:05.270 UK FTSE companies, but globally. Right? So many global, especially 260 00:16:05.270 --> 00:16:09.035 companies that are all men. And they actually that there may be and I 261 00:16:09.035 --> 00:16:12.315 dare use the word token. There's a token woman on there, and they'll be the 262 00:16:12.315 --> 00:16:16.050 company secretary. Right? Well, they'll sometimes they're they're invited as the guest 263 00:16:16.209 --> 00:16:19.170 chair, whatever that means. Right? Because now they have a woman in the room. She 264 00:16:19.170 --> 00:16:22.690 doesn't say anything. And by the way, can you make the coffees, please? Like, it's 265 00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:25.269 like, you know, all those all those kind of, 266 00:16:26.965 --> 00:16:30.625 Jo what I mean, I a stat that I I often roll 267 00:16:30.625 --> 00:16:34.440 out is globally globally, this is. In fact, if I was 268 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.880 to say to you, listen, Jo, there's a 95% chance of rain when you're about 269 00:16:37.880 --> 00:16:41.555 to go out to the shop. Right? Before you walk out your front door, 270 00:16:41.555 --> 00:16:44.834 you would dress up for rain. Right? Lockwood be fully expecting it to rain. Well, 271 00:16:44.834 --> 00:16:48.360 95% of all CEOs globally are men. 95%, 272 00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:52.580 which is practically like saying, it's all CEOs are men. And I'm super 273 00:16:52.580 --> 00:16:55.704 conscious here. I'm running a business on gender equality. I do have a business partner, 274 00:16:55.704 --> 00:16:59.245 Katie Litchfield, who founded the company. So there's a whole story there, but 275 00:16:59.625 --> 00:17:03.279 that's not lost on me. You know? So how do we 276 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.039 what would the world look like even if we doubled the number 277 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.875 of CEOs that are women? But we got up to 15% 278 00:17:10.935 --> 00:17:14.775 or 20% or even 30%. What what would that actually do? How 279 00:17:14.775 --> 00:17:18.589 would that impact the culture inside those organizations? We know 280 00:17:18.589 --> 00:17:21.150 from the research, and I've seen this on your website as well. So I know 281 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:24.829 you've spoken to this many times, but, you know, companies that have 282 00:17:24.829 --> 00:17:28.515 greater equality. Right? And we're talking about gender here, but we know it 283 00:17:28.515 --> 00:17:32.355 applies much broader than that. Improve revenues as 284 00:17:32.355 --> 00:17:36.130 compared to the competition that don't. Improve revenues, profitability, employee 285 00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:39.490 engagement, customer service. They make less risky 286 00:17:39.490 --> 00:17:43.325 decisions, and they invest more in research and development. And on top of 287 00:17:43.325 --> 00:17:47.085 that, those companies also gain more of a focus on ESG and CSR, I. E. 288 00:17:47.085 --> 00:17:50.544 They become better for the environment. They be get become better for communities. 289 00:17:50.910 --> 00:17:54.590 They're better governed in in terms of making sure there's no fraud. They're not gonna 290 00:17:54.590 --> 00:17:58.270 drain the pension pots and corporate social responsibilities. The way I see 291 00:17:58.270 --> 00:18:01.835 it is increase equality is better for business. It's better for 292 00:18:01.835 --> 00:18:05.375 people, and it's better for planet. Boy, do we need that right now? 293 00:18:05.595 --> 00:18:09.330 So what would it look like if we had anything approaching 294 00:18:09.390 --> 00:18:13.070 50% on the top leadership teams across the world? What what 295 00:18:13.070 --> 00:18:16.910 would that look like? What would lee how would we change the definition of leadership 296 00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:20.664 at that point? The the challenge sometimes is that 297 00:18:20.804 --> 00:18:24.424 we we want women to aspire to leadership positions. We want women to 298 00:18:24.700 --> 00:18:27.740 take on these roles. We want to create this equity. And I I can feel 299 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:31.340 a huge desire in in the world to do that. But when 300 00:18:31.340 --> 00:18:34.945 women get there, it's not as 301 00:18:34.945 --> 00:18:38.705 comfortable. You know? The the the money is still controlled by by men, often 302 00:18:38.705 --> 00:18:41.904 the investment or whatever it is, people being judged harshly. We've seen a lot of 303 00:18:41.904 --> 00:18:45.730 women arrive in the boardroom, and within 304 00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:48.850 a short period of time, they feel very uncomfortable. You know, there's there's concrete cliff 305 00:18:48.850 --> 00:18:51.910 or this cliff that, you know, you get there. You suddenly you're 306 00:18:52.575 --> 00:18:56.175 you're being judged more harshly than your male counterparts. For sure. And also 307 00:18:56.175 --> 00:18:59.775 research shows that it's called the leap pad effect where they have to take 308 00:18:59.775 --> 00:19:03.400 more more almost lateral moves. They have to take more 309 00:19:03.860 --> 00:19:07.220 more roles. So by the time they do gain that promotion, they're actually more 310 00:19:07.220 --> 00:19:10.835 qualified than the men. They have more experience than the men, 311 00:19:11.535 --> 00:19:15.215 but also they're often given an opportunity for a role that a 312 00:19:15.215 --> 00:19:19.020 man wouldn't wanna take. Right? So let's say it's a really a really risky 313 00:19:19.020 --> 00:19:22.300 turnaround situation. Right? Hey. We've got this great opportunity for you. We want you to 314 00:19:22.300 --> 00:19:25.825 go and run, Chad. Right? And we want you to do this turnaround where we 315 00:19:25.825 --> 00:19:28.784 want you to sell alcohol to all the village elder, but I'm kinda playing a 316 00:19:28.784 --> 00:19:31.825 little bit. But you get the idea. Right? It's almost like the the poison chalice 317 00:19:31.825 --> 00:19:35.620 is impossible. And not only is the pressure higher on a woman, 318 00:19:35.620 --> 00:19:39.059 but actually often and it's called the glass ceiling for a reason. Often, they're also 319 00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:42.615 given roles that men touch with a bargepole because men tend to have more 320 00:19:42.615 --> 00:19:46.455 choice than women. And I'm not against men. I'm speaking as a man. Right? 321 00:19:46.455 --> 00:19:50.030 We need men. But what does it look like? How do we better support 322 00:19:50.030 --> 00:19:53.730 women to get those top positions for all the reasons that you've just outlined? 323 00:19:54.350 --> 00:19:57.315 Yeah. I mean, we look at politicians around the world, Jacinda Ardern, 324 00:19:57.855 --> 00:20:01.455 Thatcher, Truss, Theresa May, and 325 00:20:01.455 --> 00:20:05.235 other strong female leaders around the world. The way we talk about them 326 00:20:05.639 --> 00:20:09.320 and describe them is from very I'm going to 327 00:20:09.320 --> 00:20:12.905 say misogynistic, and I don't mean that in a in a sort of horrible word, 328 00:20:13.145 --> 00:20:16.825 but just that kind of male perspective, how we're judging on beauty, on 329 00:20:16.825 --> 00:20:20.585 dress, and clothes, even other women Yeah. Judge judge them harshly about how they 330 00:20:20.585 --> 00:20:24.420 look as well. And Yes. Men men could look like Boris 331 00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:28.180 Johnson. And I'm not saying a word. Yep. And and 332 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:32.005 people think he's it looks a bit slobbish. Yep. But 333 00:20:32.005 --> 00:20:35.845 it doesn't matter if if a woman looked It's true. Slobbish. Yep. She 334 00:20:35.845 --> 00:20:39.445 would not succeed at all. A woman has to look, and this is this is 335 00:20:39.445 --> 00:20:43.190 what's wrong about the whole thing. A woman has to look the part as well 336 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.550 as as well as be the part. And it's how it's how each of us 337 00:20:46.550 --> 00:20:50.010 without even realizing are embodying that perspective, 338 00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:53.245 that value set that is that is informed 339 00:20:54.024 --> 00:20:57.485 and kinda programmed by the society that we're brought up in. 340 00:20:57.705 --> 00:21:00.664 Right? And for many of us, it is unconscious. For some of us, it might 341 00:21:00.664 --> 00:21:03.250 be conscious. For some of us, we're aware. We're trying to change it, but we 342 00:21:03.250 --> 00:21:07.010 don't realize when we fall into that trap. Gosh. It's so easy. And women will 343 00:21:07.010 --> 00:21:09.669 talk about this as well. You know, we we work in a lot of organizations 344 00:21:09.809 --> 00:21:13.625 where they recognize that culture is kind of against 345 00:21:14.245 --> 00:21:17.524 that it could just be against speaking up full stop. Right? And so therefore, it's 346 00:21:17.524 --> 00:21:20.580 even harder for a woman to speak up. And so then it can create competition 347 00:21:20.580 --> 00:21:24.340 between women who are already in the minority inside an organization. In one sense, 348 00:21:24.340 --> 00:21:27.845 that suits the powers that be because the powers that be may be more 349 00:21:27.845 --> 00:21:31.605 male. Right? So how do you create this sense of allyship? How do you create 350 00:21:31.605 --> 00:21:35.225 this sense of of underrepresented minorities in this instance? Women 351 00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:39.280 supporting each other, championing each other, advocating for each other, having each other's 352 00:21:39.280 --> 00:21:42.880 backs because it's so much harder for anybody who's in the 353 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.505 minority. But minorities tend to judge each other harshly as well, don't they? I mean 354 00:21:46.585 --> 00:21:50.105 But Yeah. Because of the way that it's been set up. Right? It's it's 355 00:21:50.105 --> 00:21:53.820 unfair. And so it's it's it's a 356 00:21:53.820 --> 00:21:57.600 really, you know, that's that's difficult to change, but 357 00:21:58.195 --> 00:22:01.554 surely, it starts with awareness that it's happening. Because unless we're aware it's 358 00:22:01.554 --> 00:22:05.155 happening, and even those with a capital l or a lowercase l as 359 00:22:05.155 --> 00:22:09.000 leaders or managers having responsibility for others. Hang on a 360 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.679 second. Is this happening? How am I contributing to this? Is it 361 00:22:12.679 --> 00:22:15.725 getting us the kind of results that we want? Could we improve the results that 362 00:22:15.725 --> 00:22:19.485 we want by shifting how we perceive this issue, by creating a more 363 00:22:19.485 --> 00:22:22.930 level playing field? What does that actually even mean? Is there competition between 364 00:22:22.930 --> 00:22:26.770 minorities because of how the game has been set up? Or how 365 00:22:26.770 --> 00:22:30.505 can we change the rules to that game? Like, these are not easy questions. 366 00:22:30.505 --> 00:22:33.965 Right? Well, they're certainly not easy to answer, but inclusive 367 00:22:34.185 --> 00:22:38.025 leadership, he wants to maximize the potential of all people 368 00:22:38.025 --> 00:22:41.770 everywhere. Absolutely, there should be an edge. My my belief is that 369 00:22:41.770 --> 00:22:45.530 we're we're trying to tackle the problem too late. And what do 370 00:22:45.530 --> 00:22:49.205 I mean by that? By the time people get into into 371 00:22:49.205 --> 00:22:52.904 business, into into organizations in their twenties, whatever it may 372 00:22:52.965 --> 00:22:56.750 be, they've already been set expectations by society 373 00:22:57.610 --> 00:23:01.210 throughout their formative years as a young as a young person to their 374 00:23:01.210 --> 00:23:04.715 teens, into their twenties. So we're we're socializing people, 375 00:23:05.655 --> 00:23:09.175 young girls, to be young girls and young men to be young 376 00:23:09.175 --> 00:23:12.809 men without the equity at that level. And I always believe that 377 00:23:12.809 --> 00:23:16.649 we actually need parenting classes on 378 00:23:16.649 --> 00:23:20.250 how to instill empowerment into their young 379 00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:23.855 girls in the same way we talk about parents teaching their children 380 00:23:23.915 --> 00:23:27.355 about misogyny, around sexual misconduct, etcetera, 381 00:23:27.355 --> 00:23:31.040 etcetera, educating the boys younger. But by the time you've 382 00:23:31.040 --> 00:23:34.660 been socialized, you have so much limiting beliefs, so much impostor syndrome, 383 00:23:35.040 --> 00:23:38.765 so much sense of being behind the curve by the time 384 00:23:38.765 --> 00:23:42.605 you even get out of school into university into business. That I 385 00:23:42.605 --> 00:23:45.965 think we've done a lot of the, yeah, the the 386 00:23:45.965 --> 00:23:49.630 expectation setting, and then you have to exceed 387 00:23:49.630 --> 00:23:53.150 that program. You have to break out of that socialization, and that I think that's 388 00:23:53.150 --> 00:23:56.885 part of the challenge we gotta face. It is. And every every culture 389 00:23:56.885 --> 00:24:00.265 has it. Right? Every country, every region, 390 00:24:00.565 --> 00:24:04.100 even even smaller localities have this very 391 00:24:04.100 --> 00:24:07.860 strong sense of within that culture, what is acceptable, what 392 00:24:07.860 --> 00:24:11.620 is not, how somebody should behave, how somebody shouldn't, how they should speak, 393 00:24:11.620 --> 00:24:15.045 how they should dress, not just on gender lines. Right? It can even be on 394 00:24:15.045 --> 00:24:18.825 cast. It can be on how much money you have, which school you go to, 395 00:24:18.885 --> 00:24:22.380 your accent, how you it's just a whole multiplicity of things. 396 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:26.060 So, you know, we're talking about broader societal change. And as you was as you 397 00:24:26.060 --> 00:24:29.135 were speaking, it reminded me of some of the hot water that Disney's got into. 398 00:24:29.295 --> 00:24:33.055 Right? As they've started to try and, in one sense, 399 00:24:33.055 --> 00:24:36.870 redress this old historic pattern of what is a man and 400 00:24:36.870 --> 00:24:39.430 the hero, and what is a woman is the feminine, and that that, you know, 401 00:24:39.430 --> 00:24:43.110