Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your
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Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 116 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title, igniting change from the top. And
Joanne Lockwood: I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Mark Bateman.
Joanne Lockwood: Mark is the CEO of Wequill and author of
Joanne Lockwood: Disruptive Leadership. When I asked Mark to describe his
Joanne Lockwood: superpower, he said, he is incredibly insightful when
Joanne Lockwood: coaching others and able to build trust very quickly
Joanne Lockwood: and get to the root of the challenge, also
Joanne Lockwood: incredibly quickly. Hello, Mark. Welcome to Jo. Yeah.
Mark Bateman: Pleasure. Brilliant. I hear you're in Malta. That's a lovely part of the
Joanne Lockwood: world. Yes. I recommend it, especially if anybody's currently
Mark Bateman: under gray skies. Looking out the window here in,
Joanne Lockwood: sunny UK, not wind and rain and floods everywhere. So
Joanne Lockwood: oh, yeah. Envious. Envious. So, Mark,
Joanne Lockwood: igniting change for the top, tell me about that.
Mark Bateman: Jo I I I think I generally believe that leaders play
Mark Bateman: well, self evidenced really, but leaders play an incredibly important role in
Mark Bateman: not only our society, but our lives. And whether we are a leader or we
Mark Bateman: follow leaders, Leaders are those that influence
Mark Bateman: outcomes in some way. And it tends to be leaders that are top of
Mark Bateman: organizations. And therefore, really what the
Mark Bateman: leader or leadership team says, this is the direction we're going in, and
Mark Bateman: this is how we all want to behave together. This is the culture you want
Mark Bateman: to build. That tends to be what we tend to follow. So
Mark Bateman: very much changes both at the top, but also led from the top. Are
Joanne Lockwood: people born leaders? Well well, that's the age old question,
Mark Bateman: isn't it? You know, I did a master's in leadership coaching, and
Mark Bateman: it it was one of the really key questions that we looked at.
Mark Bateman: I think that some have a personality type or traits that are
Mark Bateman: maybe more suited, shall I say, to leadership. But
Mark Bateman: others find themselves in leadership positions that never in a 1000000 years
Mark Bateman: dreamt that they would be influencing others. So maybe there's an
Mark Bateman: aspect of both nature and nurture, but actually many
Mark Bateman: become leaders because they believe something powerful enough that they want
Mark Bateman: to drive change in some way, and they find themselves as a de facto leader
Mark Bateman: and then learn the skills of leadership in the process. Yes. And you say that,
Joanne Lockwood: become a de facto leader. A lot of people kind of end up, as you
Joanne Lockwood: say, in leadership through progression, through
Joanne Lockwood: opportunity. It's not always a tactical or
Joanne Lockwood: strategic move. It's sometimes top top of the pile stuff. You
Joanne Lockwood: know? You you're last one standing sometimes. For sure. Yeah. You you have
Mark Bateman: a you have a you see the world in a certain way or you have
Mark Bateman: a certain ability or capability or a frustration or an
Mark Bateman: anger or an excitement, and you take the lead. Literally, you influence.
Mark Bateman: So you desire to drive that change. And whether you've got a capital l or
Mark Bateman: a lowercase l, it doesn't really doesn't really matter. And it's not just in organizations
Mark Bateman: either. Right? It's any aspect of community, society, in the family.
Mark Bateman: You can be the oldest. You can be the youngest. It doesn't it doesn't actually
Mark Bateman: make any difference whatsoever. You could be a leader in one sphere and not a
Mark Bateman: leader in another. So it's not like you are the leader and or you're
Mark Bateman: not. It's very context driven as well. Yeah. I can relate to that. Sometimes I
Joanne Lockwood: wanna take my hat off and, sit at the back,
Joanne Lockwood: and sometimes I wanna march at the front and, and
Joanne Lockwood: inspire. You know, I I can it's a bit like playing some
Joanne Lockwood: pub games like pool or dart. Sometimes I wanna win, and sometimes I'm just
Joanne Lockwood: there for a laugh and and not I don't need to win. And No. Same
Joanne Lockwood: with leadership. I don't need to feel that I'm driving
Joanne Lockwood: everything. It's nice to have a back seat and the shoulders drive. Surely
Mark Bateman: as well that that's an aspect of good quality leadership is knowing when to lead
Mark Bateman: and when to step back. It's kind of an aspect of of self awareness, really.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah. So how how do how do
Joanne Lockwood: how do organizations identify potential leaders?
Joanne Lockwood: What sort of skills are they really looking for? Oh, great question.
Mark Bateman: So there's a for me, there's almost this discussion around what makes a manager and
Mark Bateman: what makes a leader. Right. And is there a difference between the 2? So you
Mark Bateman: start off in your career. At what point do you become a manager? Is it
Mark Bateman: capital M or a lowercase M or at what point do you become a leader?
Mark Bateman: So my my personal working definition is that a manager
Mark Bateman: manages what is, and a leader takes us to what is to be. Right? So
Mark Bateman: so a leader tends to be more future orientated, whereas a manager
Mark Bateman: is managing the current resources in order to achieve an objective that's already been
Mark Bateman: set. The lead is very much about the future. I think you can be a
Mark Bateman: leader from so we're really coming back to your first question. I think almost that
Mark Bateman: you cannot not even so much that you're born with it, but almost a sense
Mark Bateman: that you you your family can tell straight away. You're not happy. You wanna change
Mark Bateman: the world in some way. Right? And it Joanne be for a whole host of
Mark Bateman: different reasons versus, as you said earlier, you know, it's thrust upon you. You
Mark Bateman: just happen to be in, depending on your perspective, the right place or the wrong
Mark Bateman: place at the right or the wrong time. And suddenly, here you are. You've got
Mark Bateman: responsibilities to drive some kind of outcome. You know? If you
Mark Bateman: find yourself in a crisis situation, you're the only person who can find
Mark Bateman: the solution. You find yourself in a leadership role whether you want it or not.
Mark Bateman: So what makes a leader inside an organization, I think,
Mark Bateman: is is those that are able to
Mark Bateman: see something about the future that ultimately aligns where the organization's wanting
Mark Bateman: to go and then can affect change, can influence others to to achieve that
Mark Bateman: in some way. So you can be a leader without
Mark Bateman: having the title, for sure. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm sure you would you'll agree
Joanne Lockwood: with this, but we all are leaders of self, aren't we, in some of some
Joanne Lockwood: area? We're not. Then who's leading us? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lowercase l
Joanne Lockwood: or we we just follow us all the time. But Exactly. Yep. Yeah.
Mark Bateman: Yeah. So if we look at, I suppose, the evolution
Joanne Lockwood: of leadership, going back about a couple of 100 years,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, it's we've gone from that sort of army
Joanne Lockwood: hierarchy The hero. Command and control Yes. Type leader. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: To what the contemporary leadership model is is more soft skills,
Joanne Lockwood: more empathy, more compassion, more humanity. Yeah. And influence. I
Joanne Lockwood: I appreciate we've got different styles of leadership, top down, bottom up,
Joanne Lockwood: transformational, all those kind of different definitions. So you particularly
Joanne Lockwood: work, from my understanding, around empowering
Joanne Lockwood: female entrepreneurs, female business people, people in organizations
Joanne Lockwood: around gender equity. So how do you
Joanne Lockwood: think if we look at the yin and the yang of femininity and masculinity,
Joanne Lockwood: how do you think female leaders bring a different dynamic to
Joanne Lockwood: organizations? For sure. So to set a bit more context, so as the
Mark Bateman: CEO WeQual, we work with the world's largest companies to drive gender
Mark Bateman: equality. And to date, we work for about 350 global
Mark Bateman: companies. We work at that sort of board c suite minus 1, minus
Mark Bateman: 2 type level. We just launched a program right now for for mid managers.
Mark Bateman: And what's fascinating so I've personally coached in the last 4 years,
Mark Bateman: maybe about 300 women at that c suite minus 1 in these big
Mark Bateman: global corporates. And what I've been surprised by
Mark Bateman: what I've been extremely humbled, I have to say for starters, and that I found
Mark Bateman: myself in a position where I'm meeting these incredible leaders who
Mark Bateman: are genuinely driving positive change within their
Mark Bateman: companies and yet are also having to overcome the fact that they're in the
Mark Bateman: minority as as a woman. And
Mark Bateman: what's fascinating to see is the the journey they've had to take
Mark Bateman: to gain success within these typically male dominated environments.
Mark Bateman: And as a man, and for those of us who are
Mark Bateman: listening as men, we don't always realize
Mark Bateman: what what we do or how we behave or how we act and the
Mark Bateman: impact that can have on others. Others. The whole definition
Mark Bateman: of a successful leader or even a successful manager or a
Mark Bateman: successful business leader or a successful entrepreneur or a successful
Mark Bateman: founder, anybody, success defines success typically is through that
Mark Bateman: historical lens, where if we go back 200 years, there's
Mark Bateman: still some of those very strong masculine perceived traits
Mark Bateman: as to what defines success. And you can see that even
Mark Bateman: in funding conversations. When you look at, you know, for every dollar I come with
Mark Bateman: the exact stats, and I write about this in my book. Something like for every
Mark Bateman: dollar that's invested in the US, a man might get 38¢ back. For
Mark Bateman: every dollar invested in women, it's 70 something cents back.
Mark Bateman: Right? So it's more than double the return. And yet women get much less than
Mark Bateman: 5% of all of all funding. And the similar for
Mark Bateman: for, as they call it, in in in America, you know, men of color or
Mark Bateman: women of color, so non white, non Caucasian men, is
Mark Bateman: much less than 1%. So there is a perception of what
Mark Bateman: success looks like, and it looks like a Sam Bankman Fried, for example. Right?
Mark Bateman: The founder and c CEO of FTX. It's a Mark Zuckerberg. It's an Elon
Mark Bateman: Musk. It's a it's there's a very specific type that
Mark Bateman: we perceive to be associated with success, and that's been
Mark Bateman: driven through history. And that's where
Mark Bateman: the challenge lies because, actually, there's a better return if we
Mark Bateman: increase the diversity pool of those that are willing
Mark Bateman: to invest in. And that works at every level through an organization from the very
Mark Bateman: entry level right to the very, very top. Do you think there are agenda
Joanne Lockwood: divides in terms of, I don't know,
Joanne Lockwood: aspiration for leadership. Are men more willing to be go getters
Joanne Lockwood: at an earlier age? I look I look for example. So surely even
Mark Bateman: the term a go getter. Right? Where does that term even come from?
Mark Bateman: Right? I mean, I'm very driven. The women that we work with are very
Mark Bateman: driven, but the women that we work with that are very driven have had to
Mark Bateman: learn how to show up differently because if they appear
Mark Bateman: to behave like a Joanne, where it's okay to be a go getter, to be
Mark Bateman: ambitious, to be driven, for a man, that's okay. But for a
Mark Bateman: woman, there are all sorts of labels that they then receive. And
Mark Bateman: so they've had to learn how to navigate
Mark Bateman: the entry level 3 mid management levels. Once they get to the executive
Mark Bateman: level, depending on the culture of the company, that that that point, maybe
Mark Bateman: nobody sees them as a woman anymore. They're now just expects to operate as an
Mark Bateman: executive. But all the skills they've had to learn as they've risen through
Mark Bateman: those different grades, Like, you know, what to do when
Mark Bateman: they're the only woman in a room, what to do when a man shuts them
Mark Bateman: down, takes their ideas, the the the the, you know, the subject of mansplaining.
Mark Bateman: They're being told they're they're being too bitchy, too
Mark Bateman: ambitious, that they're not resilient enough, that they're too emotional. Whatever
Mark Bateman: it happens to be, that women are judged. Anybody,
Mark Bateman: interesting is that I understand the question, a go
Mark Bateman: getter. Right? For me, what's really interesting is if you
Mark Bateman: get any, any minority in a room, but I'm gonna focus on women because
Mark Bateman: that's the focus that we quote, they're be they're what they talk
Mark Bateman: about and how they behave is very, very different to the moment when a
Mark Bateman: man walks into a room. The moment and, you know, it's probably maybe common
Mark Bateman: sense. Maybe it's not. Maybe we've never thought about it. But the moment a man
Mark Bateman: walks into the room, the behavior changes, the conversation changes. Why is
Mark Bateman: that? What would it look like if it didn't? Why does
Mark Bateman: the conversation have to change? Just the men's behavior and language change where you could
Mark Bateman: argue maybe it does. Right? So I was watching something from the 19 sixties
Mark Bateman: where I think it was in Australia and a woman went into the pub and
Mark Bateman: said, oh, women allowed to go into the pub now. And these men were, that's
Mark Bateman: not right, is it? Oh, sorry. That was a northern accent, not an Australian accent.
Mark Bateman: But right. Well, that's not right, is it? Because now we can't swear or now
Mark Bateman: we so maybe men's behavior does change when a woman is in the room. But
Mark Bateman: from a position of leadership or from a perspective of leadership, what
Mark Bateman: defines successful leadership? And there is all this research coming out now that
Mark Bateman: shows that actually women tend to be better leaders than men for a number of
Mark Bateman: different reasons. One, because they've had to learn to be
Mark Bateman: more resilient because the the journey, the path to the top is far harder
Mark Bateman: for women than it is for a Joanne. True for any underrepresented minority.
Mark Bateman: Secondly, they have high emotion intelligence as a generalization.
Mark Bateman: So they're better with people. They're more empathetic. They take less
Mark Bateman: risky decisions for the company. So there were all these incredible
Mark Bateman: strengths that come with being a woman that are more Joanne that
Mark Bateman: feminine trait aspect that
Mark Bateman: most men, and I don't mean this in any critical way, but because of history,
Mark Bateman: we perceive it still as a weakness. She's too emotional.
Mark Bateman: Hang on. Wait a minute. Why am I she being emotional? And actually more importantly,
Mark Bateman: why is that a bad thing? Is it actually a bad thing? And I'm not
Mark Bateman: saying all women are emotional. I'm not saying that. Right? But we know if you
Mark Bateman: look at hormone cycles between men and women, we're pretty much steady. Right? Our testosterone
Mark Bateman: reduces slightly over time. For a woman, just look at their hormone cycle in 1
Mark Bateman: month. Poof. Right? So but is there a strength
Mark Bateman: that a woman brings by being more emotional that men
Mark Bateman: don't recognize that actually we feel almost
Mark Bateman: defensive about I mean, to shut down in some way because we're so logical and
Mark Bateman: rational and whatever happens to be. So there's a really interesting debate, I
Mark Bateman: think, to be had around this definition of successful leadership
Mark Bateman: when we talk about male traits and female. I've spent a good proportion of my
Joanne Lockwood: life in male company and and more latterly in more
Joanne Lockwood: female company. I I I've I've certainly seen a marked difference in
Joanne Lockwood: styles, as you as you mentioned, conversations. I also
Joanne Lockwood: believe that men change their their conversation. Men change the way they
Joanne Lockwood: behave when a woman walks in the room, so it's not just that way around.
Mark Bateman: Yeah. Men will suddenly become more polite or more
Joanne Lockwood: charming. Right. Maybe the the feudalistic
Joanne Lockwood: competitive alpha type traits tend to minimize a bit
Joanne Lockwood: because they're now into impress the woman mode as well. So I see there's
Joanne Lockwood: some kind of different traits come out. And so I
Joanne Lockwood: think playing on that, there's a there's a there's a necessity for a really great
Joanne Lockwood: balance of both the masculine and the feminine. Because
Joanne Lockwood: if if half the workforce, notionally, is gender mixed,
Joanne Lockwood: then having men in
Joanne Lockwood: leadership positions isn't necessarily going to build trust
Joanne Lockwood: and empowerment for women at lower levels. Having women in in
Joanne Lockwood: or only women in the leadership will make men feel there's
Joanne Lockwood: no aspirational yeah. So it's like this balance, isn't it? A 100%.
Mark Bateman: And you're gonna have a perspective on this that I couldn't possibly
Mark Bateman: begin to Joanne. Right? Because of the journey that you've been through.
Mark Bateman: But we see this time and time again is is that difference. And, you know,
Mark Bateman: I've heard so many women even talk to me where they've been invited into, for
Mark Bateman: example, a board meeting or an executive committee meeting, and they're the only
Mark Bateman: woman. Right? They walk into that room and how they experience it. And then
Mark Bateman: when they speak up, what they experience, and the room goes quiet, they
Mark Bateman: feel deeply uncomfortable, and they stop talking. This happened only with 1 one
Mark Bateman: lady, and and she left the meeting. And after she said to the whoever was
Mark Bateman: running them in the chair or the CEO, you know, what happened? So, well, we
Mark Bateman: invited you, but we didn't expect you to speak. It's like, oh my god. Like,
Mark Bateman: it it you know, this is happening day in, day out, day in, day out.
Mark Bateman: So how is that impacting the business? And as you say, you know, these
Mark Bateman: companies that still there are still a number of executive committees within not only
Mark Bateman: UK FTSE companies, but globally. Right? So many global, especially
Mark Bateman: companies that are all men. And they actually that there may be and I
Mark Bateman: dare use the word token. There's a token woman on there, and they'll be the
Mark Bateman: company secretary. Right? Well, they'll sometimes they're they're invited as the guest
Mark Bateman: chair, whatever that means. Right? Because now they have a woman in the room. She
Mark Bateman: doesn't say anything. And by the way, can you make the coffees, please? Like, it's
Mark Bateman: like, you know, all those all those kind of,
Mark Bateman: Jo what I mean, I a stat that I I often roll
Mark Bateman: out is globally globally, this is. In fact, if I was
Mark Bateman: to say to you, listen, Jo, there's a 95% chance of rain when you're about
Mark Bateman: to go out to the shop. Right? Before you walk out your front door,
Mark Bateman: you would dress up for rain. Right? Lockwood be fully expecting it to rain. Well,
Mark Bateman: 95% of all CEOs globally are men. 95%,
Mark Bateman: which is practically like saying, it's all CEOs are men. And I'm super
Mark Bateman: conscious here. I'm running a business on gender equality. I do have a business partner,
Mark Bateman: Katie Litchfield, who founded the company. So there's a whole story there, but
Mark Bateman: that's not lost on me. You know? So how do we
Mark Bateman: what would the world look like even if we doubled the number
Mark Bateman: of CEOs that are women? But we got up to 15%
Mark Bateman: or 20% or even 30%. What what would that actually do? How
Mark Bateman: would that impact the culture inside those organizations? We know
Mark Bateman: from the research, and I've seen this on your website as well. So I know
Mark Bateman: you've spoken to this many times, but, you know, companies that have
Mark Bateman: greater equality. Right? And we're talking about gender here, but we know it
Mark Bateman: applies much broader than that. Improve revenues as
Mark Bateman: compared to the competition that don't. Improve revenues, profitability, employee
Mark Bateman: engagement, customer service. They make less risky
Mark Bateman: decisions, and they invest more in research and development. And on top of
Mark Bateman: that, those companies also gain more of a focus on ESG and CSR, I. E.
Mark Bateman: They become better for the environment. They be get become better for communities.
Mark Bateman: They're better governed in in terms of making sure there's no fraud. They're not gonna
Mark Bateman: drain the pension pots and corporate social responsibilities. The way I see
Mark Bateman: it is increase equality is better for business. It's better for
Mark Bateman: people, and it's better for planet. Boy, do we need that right now?
Mark Bateman: So what would it look like if we had anything approaching
Mark Bateman: 50% on the top leadership teams across the world? What what
Mark Bateman: would that look like? What would lee how would we change the definition of leadership
Mark Bateman: at that point? The the challenge sometimes is that
Joanne Lockwood: we we want women to aspire to leadership positions. We want women to
Joanne Lockwood: take on these roles. We want to create this equity. And I I can feel
Joanne Lockwood: a huge desire in in the world to do that. But when
Joanne Lockwood: women get there, it's not as
Joanne Lockwood: comfortable. You know? The the the money is still controlled by by men, often
Joanne Lockwood: the investment or whatever it is, people being judged harshly. We've seen a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: women arrive in the boardroom, and within
Joanne Lockwood: a short period of time, they feel very uncomfortable. You know, there's there's concrete cliff
Joanne Lockwood: or this cliff that, you know, you get there. You suddenly you're
Joanne Lockwood: you're being judged more harshly than your male counterparts. For sure. And also
Mark Bateman: research shows that it's called the leap pad effect where they have to take
Mark Bateman: more more almost lateral moves. They have to take more
Mark Bateman: more roles. So by the time they do gain that promotion, they're actually more
Mark Bateman: qualified than the men. They have more experience than the men,
Mark Bateman: but also they're often given an opportunity for a role that a
Mark Bateman: man wouldn't wanna take. Right? So let's say it's a really a really risky
Mark Bateman: turnaround situation. Right? Hey. We've got this great opportunity for you. We want you to
Mark Bateman: go and run, Chad. Right? And we want you to do this turnaround where we
Mark Bateman: want you to sell alcohol to all the village elder, but I'm kinda playing a
Mark Bateman: little bit. But you get the idea. Right? It's almost like the the poison chalice
Mark Bateman: is impossible. And not only is the pressure higher on a woman,
Mark Bateman: but actually often and it's called the glass ceiling for a reason. Often, they're also
Mark Bateman: given roles that men touch with a bargepole because men tend to have more
Mark Bateman: choice than women. And I'm not against men. I'm speaking as a man. Right?
Mark Bateman: We need men. But what does it look like? How do we better support
Mark Bateman: women to get those top positions for all the reasons that you've just outlined?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, we look at politicians around the world, Jacinda Ardern,
Joanne Lockwood: Thatcher, Truss, Theresa May, and
Joanne Lockwood: other strong female leaders around the world. The way we talk about them
Joanne Lockwood: and describe them is from very I'm going to
Joanne Lockwood: say misogynistic, and I don't mean that in a in a sort of horrible word,
Joanne Lockwood: but just that kind of male perspective, how we're judging on beauty, on
Joanne Lockwood: dress, and clothes, even other women Yeah. Judge judge them harshly about how they
Joanne Lockwood: look as well. And Yes. Men men could look like Boris
Joanne Lockwood: Johnson. And I'm not saying a word. Yep. And and
Joanne Lockwood: people think he's it looks a bit slobbish. Yep. But
Joanne Lockwood: it doesn't matter if if a woman looked It's true. Slobbish. Yep. She
Joanne Lockwood: would not succeed at all. A woman has to look, and this is this is
Joanne Lockwood: what's wrong about the whole thing. A woman has to look the part as well
Joanne Lockwood: as as well as be the part. And it's how it's how each of us
Mark Bateman: without even realizing are embodying that perspective,
Mark Bateman: that value set that is that is informed
Mark Bateman: and kinda programmed by the society that we're brought up in.
Mark Bateman: Right? And for many of us, it is unconscious. For some of us, it might
Mark Bateman: be conscious. For some of us, we're aware. We're trying to change it, but we
Mark Bateman: don't realize when we fall into that trap. Gosh. It's so easy. And women will
Mark Bateman: talk about this as well. You know, we we work in a lot of organizations
Mark Bateman: where they recognize that culture is kind of against
Mark Bateman: that it could just be against speaking up full stop. Right? And so therefore, it's
Mark Bateman: even harder for a woman to speak up. And so then it can create competition
Mark Bateman: between women who are already in the minority inside an organization. In one sense,
Mark Bateman: that suits the powers that be because the powers that be may be more
Mark Bateman: male. Right? So how do you create this sense of allyship? How do you create
Mark Bateman: this sense of of underrepresented minorities in this instance? Women
Mark Bateman: supporting each other, championing each other, advocating for each other, having each other's
Mark Bateman: backs because it's so much harder for anybody who's in the
Mark Bateman: minority. But minorities tend to judge each other harshly as well, don't they? I mean
Joanne Lockwood: But Yeah. Because of the way that it's been set up. Right? It's it's
Mark Bateman: unfair. And so it's it's it's a
Mark Bateman: really, you know, that's that's difficult to change, but
Mark Bateman: surely, it starts with awareness that it's happening. Because unless we're aware it's
Mark Bateman: happening, and even those with a capital l or a lowercase l as
Mark Bateman: leaders or managers having responsibility for others. Hang on a
Mark Bateman: second. Is this happening? How am I contributing to this? Is it
Mark Bateman: getting us the kind of results that we want? Could we improve the results that
Mark Bateman: we want by shifting how we perceive this issue, by creating a more
Mark Bateman: level playing field? What does that actually even mean? Is there competition between
Mark Bateman: minorities because of how the game has been set up? Or how
Mark Bateman: can we change the rules to that game? Like, these are not easy questions.
Mark Bateman: Right? Well, they're certainly not easy to answer, but inclusive
Mark Bateman: leadership, he wants to maximize the potential of all people
Mark Bateman: everywhere. Absolutely, there should be an edge. My my belief is that
Joanne Lockwood: we're we're trying to tackle the problem too late. And what do
Joanne Lockwood: I mean by that? By the time people get into into
Joanne Lockwood: business, into into organizations in their twenties, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be, they've already been set expectations by society
Joanne Lockwood: throughout their formative years as a young as a young person to their
Joanne Lockwood: teens, into their twenties. So we're we're socializing people,
Joanne Lockwood: young girls, to be young girls and young men to be young
Joanne Lockwood: men without the equity at that level. And I always believe that
Joanne Lockwood: we actually need parenting classes on
Joanne Lockwood: how to instill empowerment into their young
Joanne Lockwood: girls in the same way we talk about parents teaching their children
Joanne Lockwood: about misogyny, around sexual misconduct, etcetera,
Joanne Lockwood: etcetera, educating the boys younger. But by the time you've
Joanne Lockwood: been socialized, you have so much limiting beliefs, so much impostor syndrome,
Joanne Lockwood: so much sense of being behind the curve by the time
Joanne Lockwood: you even get out of school into university into business. That I
Joanne Lockwood: think we've done a lot of the, yeah, the the
Joanne Lockwood: expectation setting, and then you have to exceed
Joanne Lockwood: that program. You have to break out of that socialization, and that I think that's
Joanne Lockwood: part of the challenge we gotta face. It is. And every every culture
Mark Bateman: has it. Right? Every country, every region,
Mark Bateman: even even smaller localities have this very
Mark Bateman: strong sense of within that culture, what is acceptable, what
Mark Bateman: is not, how somebody should behave, how somebody shouldn't, how they should speak,
Mark Bateman: how they should dress, not just on gender lines. Right? It can even be on
Mark Bateman: cast. It can be on how much money you have, which school you go to,
Mark Bateman: your accent, how you it's just a whole multiplicity of things.
Mark Bateman: So, you know, we're talking about broader societal change. And as you was as you
Mark Bateman: were speaking, it reminded me of some of the hot water that Disney's got into.
Mark Bateman: Right? As they've started to try and, in one sense,
Mark Bateman: redress this old historic pattern of what is a man and
Mark Bateman: the hero, and what is a woman is the feminine, and that that, you know,
Mark Bateman: the woman needs to be rescued. And and so as they've sought to change their
Mark Bateman: programming and now you will see it. Right? You will see
Mark Bateman: black women as the as the role, as the hero,
Mark Bateman: as the as the one you wanna follow in cartoons or in films. And
Mark Bateman: there's been incredible pushback, and Disney's gone through some really
Mark Bateman: challenging moments as a result of it. Because they're try they've kind of depending
Mark Bateman: on your perspective rightly or wrongly. Right? But as a as as an executive
Mark Bateman: team, they've decided, right, we're going in this direction. We want a more equitable world.
Mark Bateman: We want to role model the underrepresented. And then the
Mark Bateman: status quo, and this is the subject to my book, you know, disrupted
Mark Bateman: leadership is about challenging the status quo, not just about challenging, but changing
Mark Bateman: right to disrupt means you literally change the status quo. You change what
Mark Bateman: is into something else. And so that's something that Disney's tried to
Mark Bateman: do, but it created all out war for them. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, we look back to the, what, the 1930, 19
Joanne Lockwood: forties, and Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, those
Joanne Lockwood: kind of really strong, of the time, male and female
Joanne Lockwood: stereotypes. The dwarves, hi ho hi ho off to work and
Joanne Lockwood: Snow White stayed at home, cooked, cleaned, sang, and skipped for the, the animals in
Joanne Lockwood: the forest and things. So that was kind of the thing. And, oh, at the
Joanne Lockwood: apple falls asleep, needs man to rescue and save and kiss, make
Joanne Lockwood: up, off his back, ride off sunset Disney ending. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think it was was it Frozen was the first, Disney feature film
Joanne Lockwood: where there was a strong female lead that wasn't supported by a
Joanne Lockwood: male character. Right. And it was a basic, a matriarchal
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Female led film. And that was the that was their turning point, I believe.
Mark Bateman: Yeah. I remember my daughter singing those songs time and time again. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: You'd be right. Those that that sets the tone for society. Those what
Joanne Lockwood: you're growing up with, what you're seeing, the advertising, the pink and the blues.
Mark Bateman: It it really does. But I but actually and I it's something that
Mark Bateman: I'm still, in one sense, working through because do I actually believe we
Mark Bateman: will get to a situation where we have 50% CEOs being men
Mark Bateman: and 50% of CEOs being women? Right? Cause that's ultimately where the power lies. Right?
Mark Bateman: The CEO, the COO, chief operating officer, and the chief finance officer. But
Mark Bateman: 95% of CEOs are men. So what would it look like if
Mark Bateman: we increase that percentage? But, again, I
Mark Bateman: think we have to be really careful with this because there is the masculine and
Mark Bateman: there is the feminine, and there are traits that are more commonly associated with the
Mark Bateman: masculine. And there are traits that are more commonly associated with the feminine. It's not
Mark Bateman: that a man can't have feminine traits, and it's not a woman can't have masculine
Mark Bateman: traits. Right? That's we're all this very incredibly complex mix
Mark Bateman: of different aspects to us based on nature and nurture.
Mark Bateman: Right? But what but I'm really intrigued and and
Mark Bateman: I'm and every time I see a very senior
Mark Bateman: female leader working, and I'm sometimes have the joy
Mark Bateman: of almost being a in a room, but not act you know, being in the
Mark Bateman: back
Mark Bateman: It it takes my breath away. I'm like, wow. Like,
Mark Bateman: what? How did you do that? Like, I couldn't do it like that. I'd be
Mark Bateman: far more direct. I'd be far more like calling the shots. Here's what I want.
Mark Bateman: And they and and there's a there's a I know it's innate, actually, but
Mark Bateman: there is a a deep skill that's been learned either as a result of being
Mark Bateman: the feminine and also the result of being the minority, the one that has the
Mark Bateman: less power. They've had to learn how to
Mark Bateman: if I say play the game, there is an aspect to that because we're all
Mark Bateman: playing this game. Right? That they've had to learn how to influence, how to
Mark Bateman: drive results without going through the front door that a man might do. Right?
Mark Bateman: A woman might come through the kitchen window or through the back door. A man
Mark Bateman: goes through the front door in the main because that's the expectation. So what
Mark Bateman: the bit I'm trying to raise here is what does successful feminine leadership look like?
Mark Bateman: And, you know, a number of a number of b corps in the world and
Mark Bateman: b corps being those organizations that ultimately wanna do good for the world, not not
Mark Bateman: quite not for profit. And that's all third sector, if you like. Hugely successful
Mark Bateman: companies. Role models. A lot of them are run by
Mark Bateman: women. Wow. Gosh. And yet let's not let's
Mark Bateman: not think that women don't lead successful businesses. You know, in my
Mark Bateman: book, I interview Heather Sikorsky, she was at ABB. She's now at Schneider Electric.
Mark Bateman: She's she stood up a bit. She started a business within ABB that was
Mark Bateman: generating $2,000,000,000 in revenue. You know, she went and and automated
Mark Bateman: the largest chemical plant in Saudi Arabia where women aren't allowed to manage
Mark Bateman: anything. Like and and if you may ask, she's the kindest,
Mark Bateman: most feminine type of woman you might find, and yet she is able to drive
Mark Bateman: extraordinary results. But if you met her, you'd never know.
Mark Bateman: You'd never know. So there's something I think really remarkable
Mark Bateman: and wonderful and and something I would love to see more of is is
Mark Bateman: genuine feminine leaders, but they're still driving incredible results.
Mark Bateman: I say still. Why am I saying still? They are.
Mark Bateman: Right? They are. They're outperforming their male their male
Mark Bateman: counterparts. Is it, I I guess what you're saying there is
Joanne Lockwood: you you use the tools you have in your toolbox. A man
Joanne Lockwood: might use deep voice, power, masculine
Joanne Lockwood: traits. Someone might use, say, nurturing, compassion,
Joanne Lockwood: empathy, some of the soft skills in in more abundance.
Joanne Lockwood: So you're you're influencing your sphere of influence, your creation powers.
Mark Bateman: Sorry. Even if you say it like that, though, I think, again, we could we
Mark Bateman: can and I'm and I'm I'm questioning myself as I'm having this
Mark Bateman: conversation with you. Right? Compassion. What would you say? Compassion, empathy.
Mark Bateman: I can't remember the other one. What the other word was you Jo. It's true.
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't know it's true. It's a bad train. Yeah. So I think when we
Mark Bateman: use that, if we have a scale of 1 to a100, right,
Mark Bateman: where a man is we're saying a man is at 0 and a woman's at
Mark Bateman: a 100. Right? And then we see all the negative aspects of compassion
Mark Bateman: and nurture and forgive me. I forgot the the third word again. Right. But we,
Mark Bateman: but actually it's not like that. Right. If you look at the, the, the, the
Mark Bateman: data from, you know, psychometric traits, etcetera, personality traits, a
Mark Bateman: woman might be 52% and a man might be 48%. Right? We're not
Mark Bateman: talking not to a 100, but when we say, well, she's a very compassionate leader.
Mark Bateman: I think it's very
Mark Bateman: but they do it with compassion. It do you understand what I'm
Mark Bateman: saying? The the the differentiation Completely. Yeah. And it's about I
Joanne Lockwood: said, but it's around using where you score higher
Joanne Lockwood: as your toolbox. I'm not saying and I'm I'm not for one been suggesting here
Joanne Lockwood: that it's an absolute, you know, a 100% versus 0%.
Joanne Lockwood: But you attend you know, we look at this profiling and other personality profiling
Joanne Lockwood: types. We people have a stronger in red, green, or
Joanne Lockwood: yellow, or or blue, and we we tend to know what people are gonna be
Joanne Lockwood: stronger at. You know, the I'm not gonna go into nursing because I don't have
Joanne Lockwood: that level of compassion. Mhmm. But I would more like to go into I could
Joanne Lockwood: do coaching and mentoring mode because I I do have enough empathy to do that.
Joanne Lockwood: But I'm not one who wants to be yeah. I don't I don't wanna get
Joanne Lockwood: into the nursing side where you need more compassion. I'm not heavy on
Joanne Lockwood: that. So I think, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's looking at the skills you
Joanne Lockwood: have and valuing them differently. And I think as you point as you called it
Joanne Lockwood: out just now actually, we're we're associating these
Joanne Lockwood: words with femininity, these words with masculinity as almost a
Joanne Lockwood: positive trait and a negative trait. Everybody has a blend of those.
Joanne Lockwood: Is it is it because men have been socialized in such a way to minimize
Joanne Lockwood: those traits that they're not expected to be compassionate or nurturing?
Joanne Lockwood: They're kind of Oh, I've got I I think that so depends
Mark Bateman: on the macro and the micro. And what I mean by that is, you know,
Mark Bateman: if your father is somebody who is very hard and harsh, for
Mark Bateman: example, and you're the son, it might be that then you
Mark Bateman: also become harder and harsher because that's the example that's been set to you
Mark Bateman: as to what a man is. Whereas if you've been brought up in an environment
Mark Bateman: where your father is actually very gentle and soft, but can fight.
Mark Bateman: Right? So it's not that he's gentle and soft. It's it's
Mark Bateman: that he he has developed that aspect of his personality
Mark Bateman: such that he is gentle and soft, but you would want him in your corner
Mark Bateman: if there's a fight because he's gonna knock the living daylights out of somebody. Right?
Mark Bateman: So I think it very much depends on on your upbringing. It
Mark Bateman: depends on the local culture that you're in. By local culture, I mean, the school
Mark Bateman: you go to, the neighborhood that you're in, you know, what the gangs are doing.
Mark Bateman: Like, it just depends so much, but I but
Mark Bateman: when we're talking about mature leadership, right,
Mark Bateman: so we're not talking about 5 year old or 15 year old or 25 year
Mark Bateman: old. We're talking about if you're getting into your forties, fifties, and
Mark Bateman: sixties, You know, I I generally believe that
Mark Bateman: as leaders and, again, leaders are those who have an influence over others to achieve
Mark Bateman: an outcome. Right? This is a very broad definition. I think it
Mark Bateman: becomes incumbent upon us. And this is again, where I talk to
Mark Bateman: in my book about what does great leadership look like
Mark Bateman: and, and, and great leadership is where we are willing to ask
Mark Bateman: ourselves the difficult questions where we're open to feedback,
Mark Bateman: critical cutting negative feedback, and
Mark Bateman: and we take it because we recognize it's gonna help us become better
Mark Bateman: leaders. We're constantly wanting to grow and develop
Mark Bateman: and challenge ourselves because we're about a purpose bigger than ourselves that we want to
Mark Bateman: bring other people along with us on the journey. And
Mark Bateman: I think then we start to mature as leaders. And as we start to mature
Mark Bateman: as leaders, we start to see the the the importance
Mark Bateman: of a diverse team that bring you know, and
Mark Bateman: diverse in all of its different facets because we recognize that's what we
Mark Bateman: need to succeed. And so how do I, as a leader, bring a diverse team
Mark Bateman: together? Am I hiring people that are in my own image that sound like me,
Mark Bateman: talk like me, that I believe are my definition of success. Am I willing to
Mark Bateman: challenge that? Am I willing to give opportunities and take risks? Because
Mark Bateman: it's outside of my own comfort zone, because I haven't seen it before. Am I
Mark Bateman: willing to go and get mentoring or get a coach or get someone who's gonna
Mark Bateman: challenge my mindset, my my my beliefs,
Mark Bateman: my my thoughts, my attitudes. Where they're saying, wait a minute, Mark. Why did you
Mark Bateman: hire that? As an example, and I'm I have to very carefully I don't name
Mark Bateman: any names. I was speaking to a CEO. I say of a FTSE company. Right?
Mark Bateman: UK listed company. How much can I say? So he had an all male
Mark Bateman: executive committee, and I know that wasn't his intention. And
Mark Bateman: he generally wanted to have women on his executive
Mark Bateman: committee, but they're all men. Now the FTSE,
Mark Bateman: there's there's a report that just came out, I think, last month.
Mark Bateman: The number of all male executive committees now within FTSE companies is
Mark Bateman: actually quite small, but they're still there. This company
Mark Bateman: is one of those, so nobody can guess who it is. And I said to
Mark Bateman: him, well, hang on. Why? Wait. That's that's not good enough.
Mark Bateman: Like, you're saying that you want women on your executive committee, but you
Mark Bateman: don't have women on your executive. And he said, well, Mark, I
Mark Bateman: tried With respect, you haven't because you
Mark Bateman: haven't. Right? And it's incumbent upon leaders
Mark Bateman: to drive Joanne. And he'd had a
Mark Bateman: one of the power roles come and said, oh, we had women on the short
Mark Bateman: list, but they went the Joanne outvoted and then and then he said,
Mark Bateman: Joanne had to take our investors into consideration. Oh, that's a very
Mark Bateman: telling statement. Right? So the outgoing
Mark Bateman: CXO, whoever the c suite role member was, was liked by
Mark Bateman: investors. He was white. You know? He was Oxbridge educated,
Mark Bateman: comes from a certain background, speaks in a certain way. So let's call
Mark Bateman: him Michael. Right? So Michael, this was the
Mark Bateman: outgoing CX. I, and okay, now we're going to, we need
Mark Bateman: a new CXO. Okay. Let's find another Michael. That's
Mark Bateman: always the easiest way because we have in our mind, and it's it's a
Mark Bateman: human condition. Right? And that doesn't in one sense, there's no implied criticism
Mark Bateman: other than if you're a great leader, you're a mature
Mark Bateman: leader. You understand the absolute
Mark Bateman: requisite need to challenge yourself and your thinking around
Mark Bateman: the diversity that you need and your leadership team to drive the results?
Mark Bateman: This is the whole separate aspect in terms of competitive sustainability over
Mark Bateman: the long term and how you outperform your competitors over the long term. I can
Mark Bateman: talk about that in a second if that's helpful. But just as an example, right,
Mark Bateman: he had an idea in his mind, not only of what he needed, but also
Mark Bateman: what the external world needed, the investors needed. And it was somebody that's
Mark Bateman: looked like and sounded like a Michael. Right? Okay.
Joanne Lockwood: It's like the old adage. You know, you don't get fired for buying IBM. You
Joanne Lockwood: know? You don't get fired for hiring a man. It's kind of the Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: If you hire a woman, then in in it's there's an
Joanne Lockwood: implicit perception there of you're hiring because
Joanne Lockwood: she's a woman. You're hiring for 2nd best. You're taking a risk.
Joanne Lockwood: You're putting a limb out there rather than having some
Joanne Lockwood: confident hire, is it? Well, it and you are all of those things. Right?
Mark Bateman: Because the moment you break away from the way things have been done previously, you
Mark Bateman: are taking a risk. You are. Hello? On you.
Mark Bateman: It's on you. You're fine with that. Hello? What do you think comes with this
Mark Bateman: role as a leader of this organization? Did you wanna repeat the hit the the
Mark Bateman: the patterns of the past and become like a Kodak or or a
Mark Bateman: Nokia even though this anyway or, like, whoever big or block like, these
Mark Bateman: big organizations that just got into level 1 thinking, tick
Mark Bateman: box exercise. We know what success looks like. Let's just keep rolling
Mark Bateman: that particular wheel. And before you realize it, you're you're
Mark Bateman: you're in a burning house and it's and it's it's all gone.
Mark Bateman: Right? You as a leader, it is incumbent upon you to ask the really
Mark Bateman: challenging questions, which is an aspect of diversity. So I
Mark Bateman: could Jo I come on to the That's it. Yeah. So I was gonna ask
Joanne Lockwood: you a question about is the recruitment process set up
Joanne Lockwood: correctly? I'm I'm a big fan of anonymized hiring, work
Joanne Lockwood: based samples Yeah. Jumping the CV Yeah. Getting that to your
Joanne Lockwood: final 5 for that actually knowing who they are until until you start
Joanne Lockwood: getting into the final 5 and meeting them. Mhmm. That would that would have learned
Joanne Lockwood: a lot more broader a broader demographic to come through, in my
Joanne Lockwood: opinion. Yeah. I mean, I I remember I was speaking with, again, one
Mark Bateman: of the women. She was the CEO of a of a company. And
Mark Bateman: she's going, Mark, I'm not sure that we we've gotta be careful. We don't do
Mark Bateman: positive. Gosh. She had a really interesting Positive discrimination. You wanna
Joanne Lockwood: take positive action? So, yeah. So she had a really interesting ethical dilemma
Mark Bateman: inside her business, but we started talking about
Mark Bateman: positive discrimination. And she said, actually, Mark, we need positive discrimination.
Mark Bateman: And here's why. Because when you have a minority, they're in a minority for a
Mark Bateman: reason. How are you gonna bring the balance
Mark Bateman: in unless you positively discriminate the other way?
Mark Bateman: And, gosh, I can hear the screams now. Right? Oh my god. Can't do
Mark Bateman: that. What what do you mean you can't do that? Like, if
Mark Bateman: you have, let's talk in maybe more masculine
Mark Bateman: language. You have a football team and you have a team of 11
Mark Bateman: strikers. Right? And you got we just want the best
Mark Bateman: players, and that's why we have 11 strikers on the team. We can score
Mark Bateman: lots of goals, but we always lose every game because we've got no goalkeepers, defenders,
Mark Bateman: or midfielders. Okay? Well, then you need to positively discriminate, don't
Mark Bateman: you? You need to go out and hire a goalkeeper. He may not be able
Mark Bateman: to shoot a goal, but you need a goalkeeper who can defend a goal.
Mark Bateman: That's positive discrimination, surely. No. It's not. It's
Mark Bateman: wisdom. It's how to build a diverse team. It's not positive
Joanne Lockwood: discrimination. It's you know, which is unlawful in many territories. It's positive action.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's using different techniques. It's about the attraction phase, the
Joanne Lockwood: the the recruitment marketing, the employer branding, all these kind of things Yep. Encourage,
Joanne Lockwood: favor of the the demographic you're looking to attract. I think that
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. In in terms of the marketing, I think if you anonymize, you can
Mark Bateman: True. You can get people in for their process. But insurance is a challenge. Now
Joanne Lockwood: if you're looking for Yep. If you're looking for a FTSE 500
Joanne Lockwood: CFO, the majority of FTSE 500 CFOs are
Joanne Lockwood: probably men. They are. So if you're looking for a CFO for with that
Joanne Lockwood: credentials, your your talent pool is likely to be highly biased
Joanne Lockwood: towards men with attractive But that may be true, but this is really interesting. And
Mark Bateman: this is actually why our business partner Katie set up WeQual to start with. So
Mark Bateman: she used to work at the Financial Times, and she set up the Feet forums.
Mark Bateman: And these were executive level events, primarily for UK listed companies.
Mark Bateman: And every time she ran an event, there always meant turning up. So once
Mark Bateman: she left the Feet, she had a black book of CEOs and chairs, and she
Mark Bateman: said to them, hey. Listen. Where are the women? And they asked, okay. If you
Mark Bateman: can find them, we'll hire them. Jo okay. Now at the same time, the UK
Mark Bateman: government had just done the report, right? That Hamtai Alexander report, which was that
Mark Bateman: there were 5,000 women reporting into executives,
Mark Bateman: executive committee roles within just the Foot CLA. And just the
Mark Bateman: recent study that came out a month ago is over 5,000. So over
Mark Bateman: 5,000 women, 5,000
Mark Bateman: women reporting into direct reports to members of the executive committee.
Mark Bateman: It's not that they're not there. They're there, which is why we run the equal
Mark Bateman: awards because we identify these women that are ready for the step up to the
Mark Bateman: c suite. And it we're approaching 40% now of those women that have been actually
Mark Bateman: promoted. They're there. But there is still this bias. There is
Mark Bateman: still this perspective perception, call it
Mark Bateman: what you will, that we have to overcome, which is why we need sorry? We
Joanne Lockwood: want the person who's in in that ex ex Jo role, not the one
Joanne Lockwood: reporting to the ex co. We're not we're not looking to step down when we're
Joanne Lockwood: looking to to that is that is that part of the challenge? We're not looking
Joanne Lockwood: for potential talent. We're looking for demonstrable talent.
Mark Bateman: We no. But the challenge the the challenge is, though, if you've got a a
Mark Bateman: CFO and a FTSE 100 company, for example, they may wanna go to
Mark Bateman: FTSE 20 company. Right? Because you don't wanna go and do the same job
Mark Bateman: you've just done ever. Right? Because that's just boring. So you
Mark Bateman: always wanna stretch role. So promotion is always a stretch.
Mark Bateman: So alright. Maybe if you're, you know, the world's largest
Mark Bateman: company, you don't want a first time CFO. Okay. I I
Mark Bateman: can understand that. But if they've been the CFO of a region, that's maybe doing
Mark Bateman: 10,000,000,000 in whatever currency, and they're a woman,
Mark Bateman: but you pick somebody who's not got that experience because they're a
Mark Bateman: man, that's clearly not in the best interest of your
Mark Bateman: business. And there are plenty of women in those kind of roles. Jo,
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, when when I talk about it seems like allyship and privilege and
Joanne Lockwood: those those kind of things, it's about the people who hold the power, who hold
Joanne Lockwood: the privilege. It's their responsibility to open the door.
Joanne Lockwood: So women can knock, but the door has to open, and the person
Joanne Lockwood: behind the door is generally a Joanne, has to open that door. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That that's the challenge. Jo how do how do
Joanne Lockwood: we mentor and coach men to be more
Joanne Lockwood: welcoming? You know, like you talked about the in this person who couldn't make
Joanne Lockwood: the decision to hire a CXO who was female. How do we educate
Joanne Lockwood: those men to make those other decisions, not in a brave way, but in
Joanne Lockwood: a kind of matter of fact way? Well, I I think there's 2 aspects to
Mark Bateman: it. 1, dare I say, and I I don't mean to minimize this, but education.
Mark Bateman: Right? Because I don't think I still think today, most are not aware
Mark Bateman: of the the better improved KPIs you're gonna
Mark Bateman: gain by having a more diverse team. Right. And that starts with
Mark Bateman: gender. So the more diverse your team, the more likely you are to outperform your
Mark Bateman: competitors. Is it going to cause you a problem? Of course it is. Because you're
Mark Bateman: going to have diverse perspectives in the room. It might take you that little bit
Mark Bateman: longer to get to a decision because you're gonna have diverse perspectives. But when
Mark Bateman: you do reach that decision, it's gonna be more thought through. It's gonna actually be
Mark Bateman: better for your business. Right? So the first part is the educational piece.
Mark Bateman: The second part, and certainly, you know, a number of the large corporates are doing
Mark Bateman: this now primarily because they have to release pay gap data. They've got targets in
Mark Bateman: their own reports in terms of where they wanna be by gender representation throughout the
Mark Bateman: organization, but also at the top, is the importance of sponsorship,
Mark Bateman: mentorship. Now, you know, again, as a as a business, we have something called We
Mark Bateman: Call Executives where we bring together women from all these different global
Mark Bateman: companies through an a number of monthly development sessions.
Mark Bateman: And there's a number of themes that we talk to time and time and time
Mark Bateman: again about how a woman can take that step up to the executive committee.
Mark Bateman: And there are absolutely some things that women Joanne, and I would argue
Mark Bateman: should be doing to help them take that next step up. Right? Be very
Mark Bateman: deliberate. Be very intentional. Don't be afraid of coming across as ambitious. Be really
Mark Bateman: clear about what the role that you want. Have the conversation with your line manager.
Mark Bateman: Be clear about where your gaps are. Tackle where the gaps are,
Mark Bateman: get a board role externally because that's gonna give you experience that you can bring
Mark Bateman: back into your own business. Except there's a number of different things, but
Mark Bateman: sponsorship is, as you say, so important. And,
Mark Bateman: yes, a woman's sponsor is great. There's very few of those.
Mark Bateman: So find male sponsors, men on the board
Mark Bateman: or on the executive committee. These are obviously in large companies. If you're in a
Mark Bateman: smaller company, who's at your top team that you can reach
Mark Bateman: out to and say, hey. Listen. I I either wanna be where you are,
Mark Bateman: or I want this role that's way more senior than I am now. I
Mark Bateman: love what you're doing, but I need support. And I'm I'm just wondering, would you
Mark Bateman: be willing to be my mentor? Or actually, sorry, in this instance,
Mark Bateman: my sponsor. Because a sponsor will advocate for the person when they're not
Mark Bateman: in the room. Right? They will identify development opportunities
Mark Bateman: and open the door for you to take them and invite you to people and
Mark Bateman: bring you into a room in a way you could never do yourself. That is
Mark Bateman: the power of sponsorship. And so a lot of these big organizations do have
Mark Bateman: more formal sponsorship programs now for that very reason.
Mark Bateman: But the world is a big place, and that doesn't cover everybody. So
Joanne Lockwood: No. So how how do you work with,
Joanne Lockwood: aspiring women to because some
Joanne Lockwood: of it's mindset and some of it's opportunity. So how how do you coach
Joanne Lockwood: and nurture women to have belief and accelerate their own
Joanne Lockwood: careers? But, I mean, there's always 2 parts to it. Right? It's the system and
Mark Bateman: there's you. Right? And you talked earlier on about, okay, but we can be
Mark Bateman: the leader of our own lives. And now it probably come also coming down to
Mark Bateman: more to my personal philosophy as well. Right? Which is life is really, really
Mark Bateman: short. How you're gonna make sure that you drive the impact or have
Mark Bateman: leave the legacy that you want to leave? Well, first of all, you probably need
Mark Bateman: to have an idea of what legacy you want. And not everybody knows the answer
Mark Bateman: to that question. It depends how old we are. It depends what stage of our
Mark Bateman: career. It depends how much personal development we've done. It depends what traumas we've been
Mark Bateman: through. All sorts of all sorts of things. Right? Different life crisis moments, etcetera.
Mark Bateman: But I genuinely believe that being
Mark Bateman: clear about I mean, you talked about superpowers before, for example.
Mark Bateman: So being really clear about what your superpowers are, why do
Mark Bateman: you have those superpowers? And in order to achieve
Mark Bateman: what and where do your superpowers become your kryptonite?
Mark Bateman: What is it you want to do? It's about 70% of the women
Mark Bateman: that, that we meet, that I meet, I'll say to them, well, what's your next
Mark Bateman: step? Don't know. I feel like I got hit by accident. I
Mark Bateman: feel like I already overperforming. There may be an aspect of imposter syndrome.
Mark Bateman: Again, it's not that men don't have it, but when women seem to have it
Mark Bateman: more primarily because of the game they've had to play to get to where they've
Mark Bateman: got to. Right? They're all men. They're in the minority. They've been judged more critically,
Mark Bateman: more harshly. They have to pretend to be something. They're really not. They have to
Mark Bateman: be more masculine in their behaviors than they may want. So they don't feel that
Mark Bateman: they're being their authentic selves, etcetera. Okay. But
Mark Bateman: if you could, what would you do if you had a magic piece of paper
Mark Bateman: and a magic pen and whatever you write down on this magic piece of paper,
Mark Bateman: this magic pen is possible. Turn down the inner critic. What would you
Mark Bateman: write? What's your dream? And for all of us, I
Mark Bateman: genuinely believe it's about impact in some way. We wanna make a difference,
Mark Bateman: likely a positive difference, and it may be in our immediate circle of our family.
Mark Bateman: It may be a slightly wider circle of our extended family or our community or
Mark Bateman: within an organization or for a particularly social demographic
Mark Bateman: group or whatever it happens to be. Right? We wanna make a difference. Write
Mark Bateman: it down. Write the difference down that you wanna
Mark Bateman: make. Be really clear about it. Is it gonna take you time? If you've never
Mark Bateman: thought about it, for sure. If you thought about it, it probably still gonna take
Mark Bateman: your time. And it's a constant distillation process, and you constantly revisit
Mark Bateman: as you gain life experience. Right? But write it
Mark Bateman: down. Where is it? I what what why do I believe I'm on this
Mark Bateman: planet ultimately in the years that I have, which
Mark Bateman: goes like that so quick. All right. So once I start
Mark Bateman: getting an idea, then I ask myself a very simple question. Am I on that
Mark Bateman: path? Is that the direction I'm heading? And if I'm
Mark Bateman: working inside a company and I realize I wanna save the world, but I'm I'm
Mark Bateman: sucking oil out the ground, and it's it doesn't it doesn't vibe with my values,
Mark Bateman: well, then leave and go find an organization that does.
Mark Bateman: Right? So find a context, an environment, an organization
Mark Bateman: that supports you in your purpose. And that's ultimately where we
Mark Bateman: get engagement inside organizations is if we can map personal purpose
Mark Bateman: with organizational purpose. You're gonna get more engaged employees than that. Okay.
Mark Bateman: And now what what's the journey? What's the step? What's the next step?
Mark Bateman: Where's the gap? How are you gonna achieve more of
Mark Bateman: why you're on this planet? Because it's so short your time
Mark Bateman: here. It's not worth following somebody else, trying to impress
Mark Bateman: somebody else, trying to seek validation from others, trying to
Mark Bateman: gain a sense of status or ego from others.
Mark Bateman: Right? It is about taking responsibility for our lives, which is where that l,
Mark Bateman: that leadership, you said it right to the outset. We we lead our own lives.
Mark Bateman: What that means, we take responsibility for our own lives regardless of the cards
Mark Bateman: that have been dealt. That's difficult. That's challenging. There's
Mark Bateman: also, I think, a freedom and a power that comes with that. It's it's a
Joanne Lockwood: game at play here where in order
Joanne Lockwood: to succeed at these higher levels, you have to com
Joanne Lockwood: commit yourself, your soul, your whole being
Joanne Lockwood: to achieving these goals. You know, you often hear this. You've gotta show
Joanne Lockwood: commitment to become partner. You know, you gotta be doing this. You gotta be networking.
Joanne Lockwood: You gotta be out. You gotta be dining. You gotta be socializing. Gotta
Joanne Lockwood: play golf. Yeah. Does that And I see that dies unfairly I guess.
Joanne Lockwood: Right? I I no. I think it it depends on who you are and why
Mark Bateman: you're doing it. Because it because I've coached, for example, many bankers, investment
Mark Bateman: bankers here, you know, are making a killing financially, but they feel
Mark Bateman: that they've entirely lost their soul because they're doing it purely for the pursue
Mark Bateman: pursuing pursuant pursuing of money.
Mark Bateman: Joanne
Mark Bateman: more money than it could ever dreamt of. But now they wanna do something that's
Mark Bateman: to them more purposeful, but they feel locked inside that environment.
Mark Bateman: So I'm going, well, listen, life's really short, Steve,
Mark Bateman: right? Steve life's really short. And, and, and if you're feeling
Mark Bateman: like this, it's going to be harming you. Right? It's harming you spiritually. It's harming
Mark Bateman: you emotionally. It's harming you physically. It's be harming your relationships because
Mark Bateman: ultimately you're giving of your energy and time towards something that you no longer believe
Mark Bateman: in. Get really clear about what you do believe in and then make the difficult
Mark Bateman: choices. Leave the comfort zone because life's for living. And that's true
Mark Bateman: on on on any level. Right? Some people go out and dine and work all
Mark Bateman: the house because they absolutely love it. Like, Elon Musk loves what he does even
Mark Bateman: though it it it also has a lot of cost to it.
Mark Bateman: Right? And I I don't mean to set him up as an example, but,
Mark Bateman: you know, he don't compare ourselves with an Elon Musk because that's just
Mark Bateman: not fair on anybody. In our own lives, why are we doing what we're
Mark Bateman: doing? And are we truly being true to our own sense of purpose?
Mark Bateman: And the moment we take responsibility for our own lives, that's actually when we start
Mark Bateman: becoming disruptive because we're willing to challenge the status quo. We're willing to
Mark Bateman: cause conflict. We're willing to fall out with people. We're willing to make difficult decisions.
Mark Bateman: We're willing to do things that other people think is a bad idea
Mark Bateman: because we know that's the difference that we want to make. It steps
Mark Bateman: out of safety. It steps outside of comfort. That's where
Mark Bateman: disruption takes place. And so when where the whole subject of today's talk
Mark Bateman: was change from the top. Right? As leaders of an organization
Mark Bateman: as well, how are you ensuring that that you as a leader
Mark Bateman: are being purposeful, that your organization is being purposeful,
Mark Bateman: that it's doing good, not just in terms of yes, shareholder return or
Mark Bateman: or profitability, but actually it's good for people and it's good planet. That's
Mark Bateman: really difficult. It requires great leadership. It requires you asking yourself the
Mark Bateman: really difficult questions, really being self aware about
Mark Bateman: why you're doing what you're doing, how you're engaging other people, have you built
Mark Bateman: a diversity, all all of this. I mean, if we and this is not
Joanne Lockwood: criticism. It's more of a, observation. The business
Joanne Lockwood: is geared up around patriarchal expectations. It is a
Joanne Lockwood: it's a it's a man's world, you know, created by men largely. Uh-huh.
Joanne Lockwood: And there's many women I speak to, many women who I
Joanne Lockwood: hear stories from, have come to the realization they can't have it all.
Joanne Lockwood: They can't grow a family, nurture a family,
Joanne Lockwood: not just their maybe their offspring, but also their parents, their siblings, and,
Joanne Lockwood: still that family environment Mhmm. And commit both
Joanne Lockwood: feet all in, Texas Texas holding them style all in Mhmm.
Joanne Lockwood: On a career that men can in the same way. So
Joanne Lockwood: women come to realize that they can't have it all, and it
Joanne Lockwood: and you can't compete by not being all in in a in a male only
Joanne Lockwood: environment. True. And and I again, for me,
Mark Bateman: the really important question is to get really clear about what your purpose I mean,
Mark Bateman: I you know, I've coached women who who and and and this is not set
Mark Bateman: an expectation of this is how women should be. Not at all. These are so
Mark Bateman: rare at some true. You know, a a top VP will give birth, and
Mark Bateman: then 2 months later, be on a plane from America to Japan to run a
Mark Bateman: meeting and then get back for their older daughter's play at school at 4 o'clock
Mark Bateman: on a like, that's just, it's actually listening to almost
Mark Bateman: insane. Right? These are very rare people.
Mark Bateman: Don't try and be like them instead, be really clear about
Mark Bateman: yourself. What's important to you. And that might be important to
Mark Bateman: you and you may have a clear purpose and then you'll make it happen. Right.
Mark Bateman: But don't do something just because society expects
Mark Bateman: you to, or because there's a pressure to be, take responsibility for
Mark Bateman: your own life. Be really clear about the purpose and the impact that you want
Mark Bateman: to have. And if that as a woman or as a dad or
Mark Bateman: a mom or whoever is to ensure that your family has a really secure base
Mark Bateman: that you're there for them, commit to that with
Mark Bateman: pride. And there'll be a period when your children grow up that maybe you have
Mark Bateman: to figure out what you're gonna do next. Okay? Well, then go through that process.
Mark Bateman: But be really clear, you know, own own what you're doing. Take
Mark Bateman: responsibility for it. Declare us to your own purpose. Jo we'd we'd call
Joanne Lockwood: this episode ignite the change from the top. So we see
Joanne Lockwood: maybe you you give an example of b corps. We see examples of
Joanne Lockwood: of great female CXOs and CEOs
Joanne Lockwood: and chairs, setting the culture from the top
Joanne Lockwood: where you don't have to sacrifice your life
Joanne Lockwood: for for the organization. And I'm a great believer that
Joanne Lockwood: if if in order to remove the stigma and
Joanne Lockwood: the the challenge of of of succeeding, you have to
Joanne Lockwood: enable men to benefit
Joanne Lockwood: from that as well because flexible working For sure.
Joanne Lockwood: Succeeding without sacrifice becomes the norm
Joanne Lockwood: then that men could aspire to, then women won't be seen as
Joanne Lockwood: second best because they're they're not fully committed, not
Joanne Lockwood: both feet in, if you like. Yep. So how do how do we get that
Joanne Lockwood: culture into organizations where those male attributes we talked
Joanne Lockwood: about, you know, go getting, that that we wanna minimize that. And you say, some
Joanne Lockwood: women want it all. They they want they're prepared to jet off to Japan, come
Joanne Lockwood: back, look after their kids. But how can I how can I have both of
Joanne Lockwood: those? How can I how can I do both? I just don't wanna compromise. I
Joanne Lockwood: think it's, honestly, it's every single one of us has to figure that
Mark Bateman: out. And I I know that's might sound a bit lame, but it's true. Right?
Mark Bateman: We we have to take responsibility for our lives. We have one life.
Mark Bateman: And my my core challenge in that is what is it you will really, truly,
Mark Bateman: honestly want? And then be open about it. Be honest about it. Talk with
Mark Bateman: your partner about it. You know, many of these women that make it to stop
Mark Bateman: is their husbands or their partners, and most of them are married. It's their partners
Mark Bateman: actually that then take make decisions to leave their work to
Mark Bateman: support their wife or their partner because the wife or their partner now has the
Mark Bateman: the bigger, more paying, more lucrative career. So it's
Mark Bateman: unique to every situation. For sure it is.
Mark Bateman: Yeah. There's the I mean, the for example, one of our one of our clients
Mark Bateman: is Sanofi, and they they give equal maternity cover to men and to
Mark Bateman: women. And as you were just talking, then it took me back. So I've got
Mark Bateman: a 31 and a 28 year old, 2 daughters. And I remember
Mark Bateman: when my youngest, my oldest daughter was first born, and I think I
Mark Bateman: took 2 weeks off, which was the maximum I could take off at the time.
Mark Bateman: And, you know, as a dad, that was a wrench then to go back to
Mark Bateman: work for sure. Because I I wanted to support my wife
Mark Bateman: because she was a new mom and she was breastfeeding with all of the joys
Mark Bateman: and tribulations that comes with that, and also my my
Mark Bateman: my daughter. Right? And then my second daughter was born. So
Mark Bateman: I think that's a broader societal challenge as well. But how are
Mark Bateman: we gonna get changed? We're gonna get changed by
Mark Bateman: individuals who decide that there's a change that they want to see, and
Mark Bateman: that drives them. And as a result of that, drive in
Mark Bateman: them, they take a leadership role, capital l or little l, in
Mark Bateman: making that Joanne. And it has always been thus, and it
Mark Bateman: will always be thus. It's down to us. Mark, thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. Brilliant conversation. How could people get hold of you to find out more?
Mark Bateman: Thank you. So I'm on LinkedIn. Definitely follow me on LinkedIn, and you'll
Mark Bateman: see both what I'm doing personally, both in terms of the book, but also see
Mark Bateman: a weak wall. As a company, if you're a if you're a big company, you
Mark Bateman: wanna better support your women, do look us up. Weakwall.com,
Mark Bateman: wequal.com. We have programs for
Mark Bateman: both executive level women and mid managers. We also run quarterly
Mark Bateman: think tanks, which are open events. So for example, never mind.
Mark Bateman: We run quarterly think tanks. So depending when this podcast comes out, have a look
Mark Bateman: at our website. You can register for those events. You can find my personal
Mark Bateman: website atmarkdashbateman.com. And
Mark Bateman: if you're interested in my book, my book is called disruptive leadership
Mark Bateman: using fire to drive purposeful change. Fire
Mark Bateman: is always disruptive for good or for bad. And so I talk
Mark Bateman: about how you can ignite purposeful
Mark Bateman: change by starting a fire, growing a fire, protecting your fire whilst
Mark Bateman: ensuring you don't burn out. So if you're interested in that, have a look on
Mark Bateman: Amazon, Barnes and Noble, available in all those locations.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Thank you. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your
Joanne Lockwood: ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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Joanne Lockwood: Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off
Joanne Lockwood: for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that
Joanne Lockwood: challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's
Joanne Lockwood: to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time.
Joanne Lockwood: Catch you on the next bite.