WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.520 --> 00:00:10.945 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:10.945 --> 00:00:14.545 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm 3 00:00:14.545 --> 00:00:18.320 Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the 4 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:21.780 heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:25.920 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:29.734 world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? 7 00:00:29.955 --> 00:00:33.795 You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.795 --> 00:00:37.380 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.380 --> 00:00:41.220 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.220 --> 00:00:45.055 in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:45.055 --> 00:00:48.815 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.815 --> 00:00:52.050 inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.510 --> 00:00:55.469 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.570 --> 00:00:58.625 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.325 --> 00:01:02.865 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.645 --> 00:01:07.360 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.360 --> 00:01:10.900 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:17.305 And today is episode 117 19 00:01:18.725 --> 00:01:22.165 with the title infusing empathy. I have the 20 00:01:22.165 --> 00:01:25.680 absolute honor and privilege to welcome 2 guests today, 21 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.120 Rita Hallgató and Fiona Dawson. Rita and 22 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.500 Fiona are collaborators in D&I and storytelling. 23 00:01:33.285 --> 00:01:36.965 And when I asked Rita to describe her superpower, she said it is her 24 00:01:36.965 --> 00:01:40.665 impossible dreams and the strength of other women. 25 00:01:41.125 --> 00:01:44.840 And when I asked Fiona, she said this is her ability 26 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.439 to listen and make people feel heard. Hello, Fiona. 27 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.892 Hello, Rita. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. 28 00:01:52.095 --> 00:01:55.775 How are you? Joanne. Hey. Well, as I 29 00:01:55.775 --> 00:01:59.610 said, this is my first venture into a a threesome, 30 00:01:59.610 --> 00:02:03.450 I guess. We can call this my first, polyamorous podcast if you 31 00:02:03.450 --> 00:02:07.175 want. So let's see how it goes. Yeah. My 32 00:02:07.175 --> 00:02:10.215 my show notes have gone out the window. We're off piece today, so anything can 33 00:02:10.215 --> 00:02:13.995 happen. So Rita, Fiona, infusing empathy, 34 00:02:14.600 --> 00:02:17.820 who wants to go first? I'll jump in first, I think. 35 00:02:20.040 --> 00:02:23.855 Are you wanting to know how we infuse empathy? Go on. Tell 36 00:02:23.855 --> 00:02:27.375 me your story. Yeah. Tell tell me your story. You're a DIY story. Tell tell 37 00:02:27.375 --> 00:02:31.030 us more about yourself. So Rita and I started 38 00:02:31.230 --> 00:02:34.210 we realized that we are super our superpowers 39 00:02:34.990 --> 00:02:38.725 naturally come together to be able to have a really powerful 40 00:02:38.725 --> 00:02:42.565 impact when it comes to corporate DEI work. So my 41 00:02:42.565 --> 00:02:46.280 background was in corporate diversity, equity, inclusion, 42 00:02:46.340 --> 00:02:49.960 belonging, and accessibility. And then in 2010, 43 00:02:50.420 --> 00:02:53.880 I left the corporate environment and started off being an independent 44 00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:57.735 filmmaker. I have always recognized, of course, as many 45 00:02:57.735 --> 00:03:01.275 people do, the power of personal storytelling to be able to help build empathy 46 00:03:01.655 --> 00:03:04.715 and touch hearts of minds and, like, create change. So 47 00:03:05.160 --> 00:03:08.840 rather than lecturing people too much or, you 48 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.519 know, criticizing people for not understanding or calling them 49 00:03:12.519 --> 00:03:15.985 haters, Instead, my work kind of pulls away from 50 00:03:15.985 --> 00:03:19.765 that, and I create films that help people 51 00:03:20.145 --> 00:03:23.790 feel someone else's lived experience so that you can 52 00:03:23.790 --> 00:03:26.769 find things in common and therefore build empathy. 53 00:03:27.470 --> 00:03:31.069 That work that I started doing has kind of merged into a 54 00:03:31.069 --> 00:03:34.754 corporate space. And so last year, Rita and I were working 55 00:03:34.754 --> 00:03:38.435 on a really cool project together, making a short film 56 00:03:38.435 --> 00:03:42.220 for a client who has international operations, 57 00:03:42.920 --> 00:03:46.120 and we got to create a film together for this client to be able to 58 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:49.875 use for internal distribution. And we realized that 59 00:03:50.015 --> 00:03:53.855 our skill set and our background was just such a nice marriage 60 00:03:53.855 --> 00:03:57.295 as it were, where I'll let Rita talk about, you know, where she comes 61 00:03:57.295 --> 00:04:00.950 from. But we found that when we can put these two perspectives together, 62 00:04:01.170 --> 00:04:04.870 we have an opportunity to be able to work with corporations and corporate 63 00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:08.625 D&I programs in a pretty unique way and actually 64 00:04:08.765 --> 00:04:12.285 move corporations towards creating short form story 65 00:04:12.285 --> 00:04:15.700 content and focusing on values and 66 00:04:15.700 --> 00:04:18.839 lived experience in order to help employees 67 00:04:19.140 --> 00:04:22.514 internally understand one another despite their their 68 00:04:22.514 --> 00:04:26.034 perceived differences and help them realize they actually have a lot more in common 69 00:04:26.034 --> 00:04:29.290 than we realize on the surface. So it's, 70 00:04:29.690 --> 00:04:33.070 extremely rewarding work. We get 71 00:04:34.090 --> 00:04:37.390 to get to know people, like, at an emotional level, 72 00:04:38.315 --> 00:04:41.615 and help them be more intimate with their personal storytelling 73 00:04:41.835 --> 00:04:45.295 than people are typically afforded within a corporate environment. 74 00:04:45.355 --> 00:04:48.750 So it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Wow. I'm, 75 00:04:49.390 --> 00:04:53.150 I've got loads I wanna talk about there. Rita, do you wanna 76 00:04:53.150 --> 00:04:56.765 dovetail into, yeah, your part of that equation? Yeah. Just to add to 77 00:04:56.765 --> 00:05:00.605 that, like, I have been in the corporate HR international corporate 78 00:05:00.605 --> 00:05:03.345 HR world for over 15 years, 79 00:05:03.965 --> 00:05:07.520 and I've gone independent, last 80 00:05:07.520 --> 00:05:11.280 year, early last year. And I noticed that 81 00:05:11.280 --> 00:05:14.625 D&I obviously has been a hot topic in the corporate environment, 82 00:05:14.925 --> 00:05:18.444 even before that. And what I'm seeing is that we've not made 83 00:05:18.444 --> 00:05:21.860 enough progress. And sometimes it feels that we're going 84 00:05:21.860 --> 00:05:25.320 backwards, in D&I and in our initiatives 85 00:05:25.940 --> 00:05:29.780 and approach. And, you know, I might even say that we're 86 00:05:29.780 --> 00:05:33.565 approaching it wrong. We're focusing on the wrong targets. And 87 00:05:33.565 --> 00:05:37.324 I'm seeing a lot of businesses still in 2024 looking at 88 00:05:37.324 --> 00:05:41.060 diversity as the means, Whereas I think we should be, aiming 89 00:05:41.060 --> 00:05:44.900 to create an environment that's inclusive, equitable, accessible, that 90 00:05:44.900 --> 00:05:48.255 makes people feel they belong, which then would result in 91 00:05:48.315 --> 00:05:52.075 diversity. And whilst working in this project together with 92 00:05:52.075 --> 00:05:55.789 Fiona, we realized that, you know, we share the same 93 00:05:55.789 --> 00:05:58.930 values. We share the same view in how 94 00:05:59.550 --> 00:06:03.150 we see we would approach D&I in the corporate workplace. And I 95 00:06:03.150 --> 00:06:06.935 believe personal storytelling is exactly the means that 96 00:06:06.935 --> 00:06:10.635 companies can potentially use and and and build empathy 97 00:06:10.695 --> 00:06:14.170 and and and even compassion. So that's that's where we 98 00:06:14.170 --> 00:06:17.450 started collaborating. I love the way you used the word feel. And I'm a I'm 99 00:06:17.450 --> 00:06:20.890 a a passionate advocate and believer that people 100 00:06:20.890 --> 00:06:23.805 feel included. They feel belonging 101 00:06:24.425 --> 00:06:28.104 through culture, through the environment. Now I always say that 102 00:06:28.104 --> 00:06:31.630 inclusion is how you make people feel by how you treat them, so how we 103 00:06:31.630 --> 00:06:35.389 treat people in terms of how they they fit into the organization. And I also 104 00:06:35.389 --> 00:06:38.990 agree with what you said there about the DEI is the input, the output, and 105 00:06:38.990 --> 00:06:42.475 I would describe it as positive people experiences. You know, you have a positive 106 00:06:43.015 --> 00:06:46.855 experience of working with me, working the organization as a customer, as an 107 00:06:46.855 --> 00:06:50.539 employee, as a stakeholder, shareholder, whatever it may be. It's about focusing on 108 00:06:50.539 --> 00:06:54.380 that outcome because we all wanna be treated positively. And I 109 00:06:54.380 --> 00:06:57.900 think that's where we get caught up with the wokism or the anti woke stuff 110 00:06:57.900 --> 00:07:01.405 we get caught accused of. We're not trying to change the world. We just wanted 111 00:07:01.405 --> 00:07:05.025 my everyone have a a better experience in life and and workplace. 112 00:07:05.245 --> 00:07:08.970 So that that what you said there was really, really resonant. And, 113 00:07:09.370 --> 00:07:12.810 if you don't know, I mean, I I I've been both sides of the camera. 114 00:07:12.810 --> 00:07:16.090 Yeah. I've been I do a lot of professional speaking, a lot of stuff in 115 00:07:16.090 --> 00:07:19.735 corporates. I even took part in Channel 4 UK documentary 116 00:07:19.875 --> 00:07:23.635 a few years ago as well. So I'm used to having people sticking 117 00:07:23.635 --> 00:07:27.112 a lens in front of me and saying, how do you feel? And it's kind 118 00:07:27.112 --> 00:07:30.060 of It's a tough gig sometimes, isn't it, building that trust? 119 00:07:30.520 --> 00:07:34.360 Yeah. No. It it is. And, like, I and also for 120 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:38.165 your audience, I'll explain where I am in the world 121 00:07:38.545 --> 00:07:42.165 because my accent is very British, so I'm aware of Channel 4. 122 00:07:42.225 --> 00:07:45.970 But I have not lived in the UK since 1998, and 123 00:07:45.970 --> 00:07:49.810 I lived and volunteered in Bangladesh for 6 and a half months. I was in 124 00:07:49.810 --> 00:07:53.409 Portugal for a year, and then I ended up in Houston, Texas in the 125 00:07:53.409 --> 00:07:56.805 year 2000. So I've lived in the US now for 24 126 00:07:56.805 --> 00:08:00.645 years, eleven and a half years in Houston, moved to New York, 9 127 00:08:00.645 --> 00:08:03.305 total in New York and DC, and then back to Texas. 128 00:08:04.370 --> 00:08:08.130 So in my filmmaking work and capacity, I didn't 129 00:08:08.130 --> 00:08:11.785 go to film school. I just literally quit my job make my 130 00:08:11.785 --> 00:08:15.405 dreams come true, and there you go. And I had the good fortune 131 00:08:15.625 --> 00:08:18.985 of connecting with people, and I'll specifically name, like, Gabe 132 00:08:18.985 --> 00:08:22.240 Silverman and Jamie Coughlin at Side by Side Studios. 133 00:08:22.539 --> 00:08:26.219 They collaborated with me on the trans military project that I 134 00:08:26.219 --> 00:08:29.965 started in 2012, where we 135 00:08:29.965 --> 00:08:33.325 were sharing stories of active duty transgender service 136 00:08:33.325 --> 00:08:37.005 members in order to raise awareness that they were still banned from the 137 00:08:37.005 --> 00:08:40.650 US military, and that project lasted around 138 00:08:40.650 --> 00:08:44.330 8 years or so. And so it was through that experience of 139 00:08:44.330 --> 00:08:48.135 working with Gabe and Jamie that I learned some of the practical 140 00:08:48.195 --> 00:08:51.955 aspects of filmmaking. So I've somehow become a a direct a 141 00:08:51.955 --> 00:08:55.710 film director, but I love being on camera 142 00:08:55.710 --> 00:08:59.550 as well. Like you, Joanne love hosting stuff. Like, 143 00:08:59.550 --> 00:09:03.375 I'm working on an unscripted show that I that I host. But I 144 00:09:03.375 --> 00:09:07.075 think that when it comes to creating a space 145 00:09:07.215 --> 00:09:10.835 for people to feel comfortable sharing how they feel, 146 00:09:11.149 --> 00:09:14.850 Of course, the foundation of that is trust, and 147 00:09:14.990 --> 00:09:18.670 I had to had to learn, but also I think 148 00:09:18.670 --> 00:09:22.165 that I know my personality is 149 00:09:22.165 --> 00:09:25.845 that I do create a place where people can 150 00:09:25.845 --> 00:09:29.510 feel vulnerable because I am willing to be vulnerable too. 151 00:09:29.510 --> 00:09:33.270 Like, I'm willing to share parts of me, and I think that when we 152 00:09:33.270 --> 00:09:37.105 do that, it can be symbiotic. It's like a dance. Like, 153 00:09:37.345 --> 00:09:41.105 I love interviewing people because I 154 00:09:41.105 --> 00:09:44.865 love forgetting that the the cameras are around, 155 00:09:44.865 --> 00:09:48.490 the lights are around, and it's just me and that one or 156 00:09:48.490 --> 00:09:52.170 sometimes 2, 2 people that you're interviewing, but it's like a 157 00:09:52.170 --> 00:09:55.470 dance and, like and you're connecting with the eyes and, like, 158 00:09:55.785 --> 00:09:59.225 you just allow to that person and elicit their 159 00:09:59.225 --> 00:10:03.065 story. And, you know, I'll share, you know, parts of me 160 00:10:03.065 --> 00:10:06.720 too, and it's like an exchange. You know? I don't think you could 161 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.480 expect someone just to pour their heart out if you're not willing to 162 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:14.295 pour your heart out too, And, of course, I have to create space where 163 00:10:14.295 --> 00:10:17.735 I'm not taking over. It's not too much of me, but somebody 164 00:10:17.735 --> 00:10:21.480 who's creating an environment, excuse me, 165 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:25.240 somebody who's creating an environment for somebody else to share has to be 166 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:28.855 able to share themselves as well. And, that's what 167 00:10:28.855 --> 00:10:32.375 I found in this work, you know, and if now, like, maybe 14 years 168 00:10:32.375 --> 00:10:36.080 of making films and it's, it's 169 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:39.839 very, very powerful, and I think that you you see the 170 00:10:39.839 --> 00:10:43.220 audience's reaction afterwards, and, like, with the trans military 171 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.875 work, we had the short film on the New York Times, and then the 172 00:10:46.875 --> 00:10:50.635 feature documentary premiered at South by Southwest, and so I went 173 00:10:50.635 --> 00:10:54.279 to a lot of different film festivals. And after watching those films, 174 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.819 like, the number of people in the audience that will come up to you afterwards, 175 00:10:58.680 --> 00:11:01.740 thank you for doing the work, and thank you for sharing the stories. 176 00:11:02.315 --> 00:11:05.995 And I had so many people who privately came 177 00:11:05.995 --> 00:11:09.595 out to me after watching the film. So you like, you're in a 178 00:11:09.595 --> 00:11:13.360 theater and, like, you're the the film director, and they're coming 179 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:17.200 up to meet you. And there were several people throughout the year 180 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:20.925 of touring with that film that would kinda take me aside 181 00:11:20.925 --> 00:11:24.445 and whisper that, you know, they're trans and they're early in their transition, and no 182 00:11:24.445 --> 00:11:28.080 one really knows. And thank you so much for sharing these stories because it 183 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.760 helps me see that I can be 184 00:11:31.760 --> 00:11:35.520 out. Like, I can be myself and, you know, our characters as they 185 00:11:35.520 --> 00:11:39.365 were, you know, who are real people, They their stories inspired 186 00:11:39.425 --> 00:11:42.965 other people and helped other people feel less alone. So 187 00:11:43.345 --> 00:11:47.160 it's it's really awesome to now, like, take that 188 00:11:47.300 --> 00:11:50.680 experience of being an independent filmmaker 189 00:11:51.300 --> 00:11:54.680 and take it into corporations because most people 190 00:11:55.745 --> 00:11:59.525 go to a corporation or go to some business for their job, 191 00:11:59.745 --> 00:12:03.265 and they spend more time there than they do at home. And 192 00:12:03.265 --> 00:12:06.950 so why would we not take this work into a 193 00:12:06.950 --> 00:12:10.630 business where people are? You know, I want to affect change, and so I've got 194 00:12:10.630 --> 00:12:14.285 to take it to where people are the majority of the time. And it's just 195 00:12:14.285 --> 00:12:18.045 a really beautiful experience. I've I've got so much I wanna dive into there, 196 00:12:18.045 --> 00:12:21.769 but let's let Rita chip in first before we, come back. Yeah. To 197 00:12:21.769 --> 00:12:25.470 just add to Fiona's words, I mean, corporate workspace 198 00:12:25.610 --> 00:12:29.215 is such an amazing place where personal 199 00:12:29.215 --> 00:12:32.995 storytelling can work in 2 ways. It can be educative, 200 00:12:33.375 --> 00:12:37.075 but not in like telling what people to do, but you know, using 201 00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:41.399 empathy and, you know, using personal stories to to share 202 00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:45.540 how people, you know, feel in their workplace. And there are a lot of businesses 203 00:12:45.540 --> 00:12:49.345 out there who are very inclusive, you know, who are very accessible. 204 00:12:49.485 --> 00:12:52.705 You know, people feel they belong, and and it gives them the opportunity 205 00:12:53.005 --> 00:12:56.610 to show it to other people inside and outside of their 206 00:12:56.610 --> 00:12:59.910 company who I think, you know, you could benefit more from 207 00:13:00.370 --> 00:13:04.095 using personal storytelling. And on the other side, I think it 208 00:13:04.095 --> 00:13:07.875 helps businesses who are very early in their inclusive journey, 209 00:13:08.574 --> 00:13:12.095 to to learn more about, you know, how they how they could 210 00:13:12.095 --> 00:13:15.860 make make it more inclusive. And Fiona is amazing at that. Like, I mean, my 211 00:13:15.860 --> 00:13:19.400 surname literally means listener, but I'm not a listener. 212 00:13:19.780 --> 00:13:23.445 I'm not really good at that. And I sat through interviews 213 00:13:23.445 --> 00:13:27.225 with Fiona, you know, listening in the background as the executive producer. 214 00:13:27.845 --> 00:13:31.300 And the safe space she creates is amazing, and 215 00:13:31.540 --> 00:13:35.000 and it's truly truly amazing to to listen how she 216 00:13:35.140 --> 00:13:38.820 connects with with the people she interviews and and shares their 217 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:42.545 stories. Thank you, Rita. Yeah. Yeah. We have a a 218 00:13:42.545 --> 00:13:46.305 mutual virtual hug here. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So whereabouts in the 219 00:13:46.305 --> 00:13:49.850 world are are you, Rita? Are you Texas as well? Or are you, somewhere else? 220 00:13:49.904 --> 00:13:53.370 Jo. I'm actually based in I'm based in London, but I 221 00:13:53.610 --> 00:13:57.355 yeah. I'm originally Hungarian. So obviously, people can hear my 222 00:13:57.435 --> 00:14:01.035 accent. Some people can even guess that I'm having Eastern European accent, but I've 223 00:14:01.035 --> 00:14:04.875 lived in the UK for about 12 years and a year and 224 00:14:04.875 --> 00:14:08.110 a half in between in India. But yeah, I've spent 225 00:14:08.810 --> 00:14:12.650 almost a third of my life in the UK so far. So, yeah, I'm 226 00:14:12.650 --> 00:14:16.090 based in London. They were all kind of displaced because I was originally born in 227 00:14:16.090 --> 00:14:19.675 Singapore. I didn't live there for long, but I was originally born in Singapore. So 228 00:14:19.675 --> 00:14:23.515 I guess I'm not living in my country of birth either. And that 229 00:14:23.515 --> 00:14:27.110 that shared that shared sort of lived experience. It it's 230 00:14:27.570 --> 00:14:31.250 I think it's remarkable that you've you've you've both fallen into 231 00:14:31.250 --> 00:14:35.055 what you do and together. I'm I'm 232 00:14:35.055 --> 00:14:38.755 I'm conscious about the fact that, you know, Fiona, you live in Texas, which isn't, 233 00:14:39.535 --> 00:14:42.755 from an outsider's perspective, isn't the most tolerant 234 00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:46.990 of of administrations within the state. And, 235 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:50.245 Rita, your your Hungarian background, we we can all see a lot of 236 00:14:50.725 --> 00:14:54.425 challenges emanating from Hungary and certain 237 00:14:54.485 --> 00:14:57.464 Eastern European countries and the attitudes of old. 238 00:14:58.725 --> 00:15:02.470 So do do you find that you're having an 239 00:15:02.470 --> 00:15:06.170 uphill battle to push against maybe the infrastructure 240 00:15:06.230 --> 00:15:09.394 where you're based, or or do you find it's quite an Joanne open door you're 241 00:15:09.394 --> 00:15:12.755 working I got you a person on reach. Or a meet to get person. Got 242 00:15:12.755 --> 00:15:16.500 it. Yeah. I mean, I think the D&I space is an 243 00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:20.260 uphill battle. Like, you know, we've all seen that 244 00:15:20.260 --> 00:15:23.735 D&I budgets are being cut. And it's kind of, you know, the 245 00:15:23.735 --> 00:15:27.335 same uphill battle as in a lot of other things, but, in in the corporate 246 00:15:27.335 --> 00:15:30.795 world. But we're definitely seeing fellow 247 00:15:31.329 --> 00:15:35.089 practitioners, and D&I colleagues telling us, you know, how 248 00:15:35.089 --> 00:15:38.930 they would love to do a number of things, but they, they aren't able 249 00:15:38.930 --> 00:15:42.705 to because, you know, when when budgets are tight, unfortunately, 250 00:15:42.765 --> 00:15:46.445 D&I budgets are the first to to be cut, even within the people 251 00:15:46.445 --> 00:15:50.160 budgets. And and it's really sad to see, but 252 00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:53.759 at the same time, I think it it gives us power, more 253 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.579 power to fuel into myself, to to push back 254 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.775 and to maybe educate leaders that 255 00:16:00.915 --> 00:16:04.435 the way they've been thinking about D&I is not the right approach. 256 00:16:04.435 --> 00:16:07.735 And and because I think a lot of leaders expected 257 00:16:08.520 --> 00:16:12.360 initiatives to bring immediate results, and it 258 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:16.120 did not happen because the approach has been wrong. And it's not a 259 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.815 it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And I think that's where 260 00:16:19.815 --> 00:16:23.035 the early learnings, you know, for fellow D&I 261 00:16:23.175 --> 00:16:26.730 practitioners came from when, you know, we all started doing bits and 262 00:16:26.730 --> 00:16:30.410 pieces, and and we realized, you know, hang on. This isn't gonna bring 263 00:16:30.410 --> 00:16:33.975 meaningful change. And now we're facing this 264 00:16:33.975 --> 00:16:37.815 challenge that I think a lot of us now know how 265 00:16:37.815 --> 00:16:41.334 we would approach it or how we should approach it, but now we don't have 266 00:16:41.334 --> 00:16:44.699 the budget. So it's a bit of a catch 22 situation where 267 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.079 where I think we are finding our way to make this work in the corporate 268 00:16:49.079 --> 00:16:52.795 environment. But now a lot of the lot of the in 269 00:16:52.795 --> 00:16:56.154 house D&I practitioners don't have the budget. So, yeah, definitely an 270 00:16:56.154 --> 00:16:59.890 uphill an uphill battle. Yeah. We see I mean, I 271 00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:03.730 see a lot of rhetoric in the obviously, I'm UK based at the moment. A 272 00:17:03.730 --> 00:17:07.410 lot of rhetoric in the UK press around the government talking 273 00:17:07.410 --> 00:17:11.224 about D&I initiatives are a waste of money. They haven't 274 00:17:11.224 --> 00:17:15.065 delivered the benefits. All this kind of pushback. And I think even here, the 275 00:17:15.065 --> 00:17:18.890 same from the US in certain, you know, government issues. They're pushing back 276 00:17:18.890 --> 00:17:22.670 against EDI, D&I training. I think 277 00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:26.585 you you both made the point that people went into it without the 278 00:17:26.585 --> 00:17:30.265 right expectations, without the right momentum and 279 00:17:30.265 --> 00:17:33.970 longevity. They're not tracking it. They're seeing D&I as an overhead, which why we're seeing 280 00:17:33.970 --> 00:17:37.810 budget cuts. We're not seeing D&I as an investment. In the same way, we 281 00:17:37.810 --> 00:17:41.650 see maybe leadership development or the people space. It's always still seen 282 00:17:41.650 --> 00:17:45.305 as an investment often. So I think we need to move that narrative from 283 00:17:45.305 --> 00:17:48.905 seeing D&I as a cost and a hassle and and a 284 00:17:48.905 --> 00:17:51.945 wokeness and a and a and a sojourn we have to sort of fight our 285 00:17:51.945 --> 00:17:55.560 way through to actually leveraging productivity, 286 00:17:56.500 --> 00:18:00.260 happiness, discretionary effort, reduce 287 00:18:00.260 --> 00:18:03.785 hiring costs, reduce turnover, reduce onboarding, all these kind of 288 00:18:03.785 --> 00:18:07.625 immediate, which we can quote Gartner and McKinsey 289 00:18:07.625 --> 00:18:11.070 and all these stats that the cows come home. But a lot of companies just 290 00:18:11.070 --> 00:18:14.750 don't get it right, do they? And I think the storytelling you're approaching it with, 291 00:18:14.750 --> 00:18:18.590 for me, is key. Listening to the impact you're gonna 292 00:18:18.590 --> 00:18:22.255 have with people's lives. Yeah. When you say, Laffy, I know it's 293 00:18:22.255 --> 00:18:26.015 people coming up to you afterwards having experienced the 294 00:18:26.015 --> 00:18:29.810 content you're producing and with a tear in their eye with the 295 00:18:29.810 --> 00:18:33.570 story to tell back to you. That must be immensely empowering. Yeah. It 296 00:18:33.570 --> 00:18:37.395 is. Like, just, oh my gosh. Hearing you say those words until I got chills 297 00:18:37.395 --> 00:18:41.075 and getting emotional just thinking about it because it is. And you 298 00:18:41.075 --> 00:18:44.529 can't separate that experience from a 299 00:18:44.529 --> 00:18:48.210 workplace as well. Like, I think for traditionally, you know, 300 00:18:48.210 --> 00:18:51.784 workplace has been where, you know, leave your personal life at 301 00:18:51.784 --> 00:18:55.544 home, leave your feelings at home, leave everything else at home, work, go to work, 302 00:18:55.544 --> 00:18:59.130 you know, be a machine at work, and then and then go back 303 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:02.730 home, and, like, we know that doesn't exist anymore. You know, that model of the 304 00:19:02.730 --> 00:19:06.090 workplace, you know, is is gone, is 305 00:19:06.090 --> 00:19:09.515 vanished. And I think, like, going back to 306 00:19:09.515 --> 00:19:13.195 your point about where we are in the world, you know, I'm in 307 00:19:13.195 --> 00:19:16.550 Austin, Texas, so it's the capital of Texas. 308 00:19:17.170 --> 00:19:20.850 I actually happen to be in a WeWork that's on congress, and I 309 00:19:20.850 --> 00:19:24.630 can see the state capital from from this building. 310 00:19:25.125 --> 00:19:28.825 And so I am faced with the politicians in Texas 311 00:19:28.885 --> 00:19:32.265 on a daily basis, and I 312 00:19:32.405 --> 00:19:36.080 personally love being in this place in the world 313 00:19:36.140 --> 00:19:39.820 because I feel there is so much great work to 314 00:19:39.820 --> 00:19:43.545 be done. I do work with, Equality Texas. 315 00:19:43.545 --> 00:19:46.985 Like, that's the one not the nonprofit that my company, Freeline 316 00:19:46.985 --> 00:19:50.350 Productions, does work for, and we're helping 317 00:19:50.350 --> 00:19:54.110 educate, entertain, and inspire through personal storytelling with 318 00:19:54.110 --> 00:19:57.549 Equality Texas. And I think 319 00:19:57.549 --> 00:20:01.285 that talking about both in the 320 00:20:01.285 --> 00:20:04.885 UK and in the US and states across the 321 00:20:04.885 --> 00:20:08.150 US, how, like, DEI is being canceled and gotten rid of, 322 00:20:09.190 --> 00:20:12.870 I personally believe it's not going away. It's just 323 00:20:12.870 --> 00:20:16.605 shifting and it's got, you know, it's gonna probably be labeled something else. 324 00:20:17.005 --> 00:20:20.845 But when you're talking about people development and leadership, you can't 325 00:20:20.845 --> 00:20:24.605 have a leadership training if you don't talk about the just diversification of 326 00:20:24.605 --> 00:20:28.409 your workforce. Like, from stats here in the 327 00:20:28.409 --> 00:20:31.629 US, like, 1 in 5 Gen z 328 00:20:31.769 --> 00:20:35.505 identifies as LGBT. You know, the future is 329 00:20:35.505 --> 00:20:39.045 very queer. Not only here in the US is it very queer, 330 00:20:39.425 --> 00:20:43.185 you know, white people by numbers are gonna be 331 00:20:43.185 --> 00:20:46.840 less than 50%. I mean and that's just a fact, but 332 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:50.820 we're all, like, spiritual beings having a human experience. We just happen to be put 333 00:20:50.820 --> 00:20:54.645 into different human needs. So, you know, so it's like, if 334 00:20:54.645 --> 00:20:58.325 you want to be a leader, you're gonna have to educate yourself on 335 00:20:58.325 --> 00:21:02.140 what these humans are going to look like and 336 00:21:02.140 --> 00:21:05.900 behave like and be culturally raised in order to 337 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:09.040 have a successful workforce, in order to have a successful business. 338 00:21:09.645 --> 00:21:13.005 And, you know, Rita and I know, like, studies show that when you have an 339 00:21:13.005 --> 00:21:16.420 inclusive environment, it's better for your bottom line. Like, 340 00:21:16.580 --> 00:21:20.260 we've known that for a long time. But instead of going, oh, it's 341 00:21:20.260 --> 00:21:24.020 better for the bottom line. Therefore, I need to hire this many, you 342 00:21:24.020 --> 00:21:27.825 know, black people, this many gay people, you know, this many 343 00:21:27.825 --> 00:21:31.184 people living with disability. And if I get them all together in a room, then 344 00:21:31.184 --> 00:21:34.565 we're gonna make lots of money. And, of course, we know that's rubbish. 345 00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:39.120 It doesn't work like that. Like, you've got to be able to be 346 00:21:39.120 --> 00:21:42.740 less afraid of bringing vulnerability, 347 00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:46.875 kindness, courage, empathy, 348 00:21:48.375 --> 00:21:51.914 joy, fear, sadness, grief, 349 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.400 all these things that we all experience. Let's 350 00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:00.160 talk about them at work as well. I mean and that's when 351 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.595 you start to create a space where people can be seen and 352 00:22:03.595 --> 00:22:07.355 heard. A lot of people say they don't like labels, and I can understand that, 353 00:22:07.355 --> 00:22:11.200 but labels help you find each other. You know, I'm a very out and 354 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.580 proud bisexual, cisgender, immigrant 355 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.405 woman living with a non apparent disability, and I'm gonna give those 356 00:22:18.405 --> 00:22:21.945 labels so that somebody who's also living with one of those identities 357 00:22:22.405 --> 00:22:26.165 knows that I can relate to potentially to their experience, and we can talk about 358 00:22:26.165 --> 00:22:29.740 it. And and that's that's what we I think we need to to bring into 359 00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:33.500 that environment. So, you know, one more thing I'll 360 00:22:33.500 --> 00:22:35.885 say, then I'll stop talking because I really just feel like I'm going off in 361 00:22:35.885 --> 00:22:39.725 multiple angles. I just think that we're living in a 362 00:22:39.725 --> 00:22:43.265 time of the universe, of the world, of society, 363 00:22:43.800 --> 00:22:47.420 where there are massive shifts happening. There's a big change, 364 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:51.085 and change is extremely scary to lots of people. And 365 00:22:51.085 --> 00:22:53.905 so if us as d DEI practitioners, 366 00:22:55.085 --> 00:22:58.925 storytellers, people who build empathy, if we can help 367 00:22:58.925 --> 00:23:02.390 carry people through change and help decrease that fear, 368 00:23:02.530 --> 00:23:06.130 then I think that, you know, we'll create places where everybody 369 00:23:06.130 --> 00:23:09.855 can, be happy and live in joy. And with you, yeah, I mean, 370 00:23:09.855 --> 00:23:13.294 we we should all be queer meat sacks. I think that's probably a good way 371 00:23:13.294 --> 00:23:16.195 to look at it, isn't it? Yeah. Exactly. 372 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.040 Yeah. And, and Kionna talked about, yeah, Kionna talked about 373 00:23:21.040 --> 00:23:24.340 society. And I think it's super important to 374 00:23:24.914 --> 00:23:28.755 remind ourselves that corporations have the ability and 375 00:23:28.755 --> 00:23:32.515 power to influence broader changes in the society. And I 376 00:23:32.515 --> 00:23:36.290 think we, or people in corporations and especially people in 377 00:23:36.290 --> 00:23:40.130 leadership tend to forget that, that, you know, 378 00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:43.975 everything starts somewhere, and big companies 379 00:23:44.034 --> 00:23:47.794 have that power. And leading by example is super 380 00:23:47.794 --> 00:23:51.340 important in businesses because that's where 381 00:23:51.340 --> 00:23:55.100 we're able to make broader changes and, you know, changing 382 00:23:55.100 --> 00:23:58.684 the society from the individual's perspective is is a lot 383 00:23:58.684 --> 00:24:02.365 more difficult. But if you look at, you know, the big enterprises and the 384 00:24:02.365 --> 00:24:06.125 way they make changes in their policies that affect, you know, their 385 00:24:06.125 --> 00:24:09.730 employees could have easily a broader 386 00:24:09.789 --> 00:24:13.470 impact on the society. So that's why I believe that 387 00:24:13.470 --> 00:24:17.265 we do have to focus on educating and 388 00:24:17.265 --> 00:24:21.105 helping corporations to really bring those changes and 389 00:24:21.105 --> 00:24:24.670 not just pay the lip service because that's where we 390 00:24:24.670 --> 00:24:28.350 can then influence bigger bigger changes and and not 391 00:24:28.350 --> 00:24:31.390 just, you know, in the UK or in the US, but in places like Hungary 392 00:24:31.390 --> 00:24:35.225 as well or in, you know, other other countries. We've we've seen examples 393 00:24:35.365 --> 00:24:39.205 where the power of the corporate voice, if you 394 00:24:39.205 --> 00:24:43.039 like, for want of a better word, corporate allyship. We've seen it with in Florida 395 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:46.880 with Disney. We've seen it with the bathroom bill in the US where 396 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:50.555 corporations basically pulled out. Was it South Carolina for a while and 397 00:24:50.635 --> 00:24:54.475 said, we're not gonna operate here if you're gonna have these discriminatory tactics. We've 398 00:24:54.475 --> 00:24:57.995 seen people putting pressure on Bermuda and places like that where 399 00:24:57.995 --> 00:25:01.710 ships are are registered, where they ban gay marriage. So we've seen 400 00:25:01.710 --> 00:25:05.230 that going on. We've seen other regimes being, you know, if you 401 00:25:05.230 --> 00:25:08.830