WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:11.005 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:11.005 --> 00:00:14.605 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm 3 00:00:14.605 --> 00:00:18.350 Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the 4 00:00:18.350 --> 00:00:21.890 heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.110 --> 00:00:25.904 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.904 --> 00:00:29.265 world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:29.265 --> 00:00:33.024 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:33.024 --> 00:00:36.469 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:36.769 --> 00:00:40.230 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.530 --> 00:00:44.095 Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.395 --> 00:00:48.095 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, 12 00:00:48.475 --> 00:00:51.990 and inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.610 --> 00:00:55.490 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.613 --> 00:00:57.425 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.405 --> 00:01:02.945 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.725 --> 00:01:07.390 So just your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.390 --> 00:01:11.090 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.905 --> 00:01:17.565 And today is episode 118 19 00:01:18.745 --> 00:01:22.360 with the title thriving through adversity. And I 20 00:01:22.360 --> 00:01:25.979 have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Oscar Hoyle. 21 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.899 Oscar is the CEO at Blossom 22 00:01:30.395 --> 00:01:33.695 LGBT CIC. They oversee 4 projects, 23 00:01:34.395 --> 00:01:37.935 a workplace mentoring scheme for young adults trying to get into work, 24 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:42.100 an arts and heritage scheme to help young people feel engaged 25 00:01:42.320 --> 00:01:45.920 within their community, and a social and well-being cafe 26 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:49.415 takeover, and also a business consultancy 27 00:01:49.475 --> 00:01:53.075 scheme. When I asked Oscar to describe their superpower and inspiration, they 28 00:01:53.075 --> 00:01:56.780 said that this is the amazing queer young adults that they 29 00:01:56.780 --> 00:02:00.320 see achieving absolutely amazing things 30 00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:04.480 in an incredibly scary and hostile environment. 31 00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:08.445 Hello, Oscar. welcome to the show. Thank you. 32 00:02:08.445 --> 00:02:11.825 It's a pleasure to to be here today and to say hello to you. 33 00:02:12.445 --> 00:02:15.750 Absolutely. Absolutely fantastic. We bumped into it probably 34 00:02:16.130 --> 00:02:19.730 within feet of each other many times, but probably never actually had a conversation before. 35 00:02:19.730 --> 00:02:23.445 So this is quite exciting. It is. And I think that's a reflection of 36 00:02:23.445 --> 00:02:27.285 the the small, weird, little world we have within the sort of 37 00:02:27.285 --> 00:02:30.505 LGBT and specifically trans inclusion space. Right? 38 00:02:31.269 --> 00:02:34.629 It it it yeah. It is. Yeah. Even though I often joke to people that 39 00:02:34.629 --> 00:02:38.470 there is no trans directory where we all know each 40 00:02:38.470 --> 00:02:41.905 other, we we all kind of we're one step removed. We all know 41 00:02:42.765 --> 00:02:46.605 of each other through people, if not directly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like 42 00:02:46.605 --> 00:02:50.170 a weird little family where everybody's an aunt that's once removed or 43 00:02:50.470 --> 00:02:53.690 Yes. It's a crazy haunted property. 44 00:02:54.950 --> 00:02:58.725 Yeah. Me too. Don't worry. But, Oscar, 45 00:02:59.745 --> 00:03:03.185 thriving through adversity is a pretty tough and hostile environment, as you 46 00:03:03.185 --> 00:03:06.980 said. Tell me more. Yeah. So when 47 00:03:06.980 --> 00:03:10.420 when I was kind of considering how what we could talk about, I thought it 48 00:03:10.420 --> 00:03:14.105 was so important that something that I'm really passionate 49 00:03:14.105 --> 00:03:17.945 about and that actually almost all of my career now centers around is 50 00:03:17.945 --> 00:03:21.450 the experiences of, you know, GEN-Z who are 51 00:03:21.450 --> 00:03:24.810 LGBTQIA+. And and with a 52 00:03:24.810 --> 00:03:28.330 quarter of LGBTQIA+ GEN-Z is going back in the 53 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:32.084 closet when they enter work. It became very apparent 54 00:03:32.084 --> 00:03:35.765 when I started my career at Blossom that there's an issue here 55 00:03:35.765 --> 00:03:39.349 that people don't just hide who they are for no reason. 56 00:03:39.349 --> 00:03:43.110 Right? And when we talk about adversity at 57 00:03:43.110 --> 00:03:46.950 the moment, I see that in so many different directions for young adults at the 58 00:03:46.950 --> 00:03:50.435 start of their career. You know, you have a really hostile 59 00:03:50.655 --> 00:03:54.335 social and political climate for early stage 60 00:03:54.335 --> 00:03:57.940 career young adults. Yeah. Not only do you have the 61 00:03:57.940 --> 00:04:01.460 facts that the press is pretty hostile towards young people 62 00:04:01.460 --> 00:04:05.160 generally, you know, the narrative GEN-Z don't wanna work. GEN-Z are lazy. 63 00:04:05.485 --> 00:04:08.944 GEN-Z quit keep quitting jobs, and we can't work out why. 64 00:04:09.084 --> 00:04:12.625 Then when you add on that the the same hostile attitudes 65 00:04:12.970 --> 00:04:15.470 towards their identities as LGBTQIA+ 66 00:04:16.169 --> 00:04:19.915 people, often intersectional people who maybe 67 00:04:20.075 --> 00:04:23.755 experience disability or a person of color. These all 68 00:04:23.755 --> 00:04:27.515 add up to make a really, really difficult hostile environment 69 00:04:27.515 --> 00:04:30.599 for the young adults before they even get into the workplace. 70 00:04:31.539 --> 00:04:35.060 And then we see young adults get into the workplace. And, 71 00:04:35.060 --> 00:04:38.865 actually, there's a really clear generational divide here where 72 00:04:38.865 --> 00:04:42.485 where businesses and people who are working within an organisation 73 00:04:43.265 --> 00:04:47.080 are aren't necessarily gelling with the younger generation. And 74 00:04:47.080 --> 00:04:50.759 we've seen this for a long time. We spoke with millennials. But actually, what 75 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:54.475 we see through a piece of Ipsos research is that actually, 76 00:04:55.175 --> 00:04:58.775 gen z are considered to have or be the furthest removed 77 00:04:58.775 --> 00:05:02.395 from what we would consider traditional values within a society. 78 00:05:03.250 --> 00:05:06.930 So knowing that there's such a gap, there's a real 79 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:10.230 difficulty integrating this generation into the workforce. 80 00:05:11.695 --> 00:05:15.455 And, of course, you know, there are there's so many different experiences. I can't 81 00:05:15.455 --> 00:05:19.155 speak for everyone. But these two things I see as massive 82 00:05:19.294 --> 00:05:22.479 factors, yet throughout all of that, 83 00:05:22.940 --> 00:05:26.379 I see a generation of LGBTQA plus 84 00:05:26.379 --> 00:05:30.145 people who are, in often cases, absolutely 85 00:05:31.085 --> 00:05:33.985 smashing it when they have the tools to thrive. 86 00:05:34.445 --> 00:05:38.220 And big part of my work is giving them those tools. You 87 00:05:38.220 --> 00:05:41.980 know, I see young adults start their sort of 88 00:05:41.980 --> 00:05:45.485 journey with us. They're not in work. They're not in education. 89 00:05:46.345 --> 00:05:49.965 They feel incredibly shut out to actually 90 00:05:50.185 --> 00:05:53.979 seeing them go, hang on. Like, Oscar, this 91 00:05:53.979 --> 00:05:57.660 whole entry level work has been fantastic. But now how can I be a 92 00:05:57.660 --> 00:06:01.405 manager? And, you know, how can I set up my own organisation? I'm 93 00:06:01.405 --> 00:06:04.705 seeing a generation that's really hungry for success. 94 00:06:05.485 --> 00:06:09.005 And it's so interesting that despite being in such a 95 00:06:09.005 --> 00:06:12.660 hostile environment, despite not knowing any different to a hostile 96 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.780 environment for a lot of them, they still 97 00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:20.665 are absolutely, genuinely doing everything they 98 00:06:20.665 --> 00:06:24.345 can to succeed. There's a wow. A huge amount. But I'm 99 00:06:24.345 --> 00:06:28.160 picking up on that is, you know, it's it's just that it's that massive disconnect 100 00:06:29.180 --> 00:06:32.940 between young people, the GEN-Z's, and, 101 00:06:32.940 --> 00:06:36.445 as you say, the the incumbent workforce. So millennials, 102 00:06:37.145 --> 00:06:40.985 boomers, Gen X's like myself. And you said 103 00:06:40.985 --> 00:06:44.790 there's there's a there's a lack of relatability. And, yeah, I 104 00:06:44.830 --> 00:06:48.430 I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a gen xer, so my my kids are 105 00:06:48.430 --> 00:06:52.255 are millennials. But I I I am aware of, 106 00:06:52.335 --> 00:06:56.095 you know, sort of the GEN-Z sort of, cohort coming 107 00:06:56.095 --> 00:06:59.775 through. And and it's it's tough being a young adult because I never I didn't 108 00:06:59.775 --> 00:07:03.569 have to grow up with a spotlight on me in 109 00:07:03.569 --> 00:07:07.030 terms of social media, in terms of it being expected 110 00:07:07.410 --> 00:07:10.965 to perform, to be popular in a way. And, you 111 00:07:10.965 --> 00:07:14.185 know, I think there's a huge amount now where 112 00:07:15.045 --> 00:07:18.005 young people have something that I never had. I I could go home at night, 113 00:07:18.005 --> 00:07:21.510 shut the front door, and I was pretty much safe Mhmm. 114 00:07:21.670 --> 00:07:25.270 Until the next day when I may get yeah. I have to face the world 115 00:07:25.270 --> 00:07:28.805 again. But young people today, they go at home, and they're 116 00:07:28.805 --> 00:07:32.245 even more unsafe than they are maybe in the in the real world because they 117 00:07:32.245 --> 00:07:35.660 got all of this social media pressure. Oh, I mean, a 118 00:07:35.660 --> 00:07:39.500 100%. You know, something that I rarely say, because every time 119 00:07:39.500 --> 00:07:43.294 I do, I get scouring looks from people, is that I am the 120 00:07:43.294 --> 00:07:47.055 1st year of GEN-Z, which, really does 121 00:07:47.055 --> 00:07:49.555 upset a lot of people, surprisingly. And 122 00:07:51.570 --> 00:07:55.110 being in such, you know, a chief executive 123 00:07:55.490 --> 00:07:59.135 of an organisation that's turning over roughly, you know, half 124 00:07:59.135 --> 00:08:02.595 a1000000 is a lot of responsibility for someone my age already. 125 00:08:04.175 --> 00:08:07.990 And then I I have a tendency to want to use social media because my 126 00:08:07.990 --> 00:08:11.770 generation has always used social media. Yet, 127 00:08:11.990 --> 00:08:15.615 I have a real difficult bad time balancing the two. And 128 00:08:15.615 --> 00:08:19.455 that's somebody who I believe as a person that's doing relatively well 129 00:08:19.455 --> 00:08:23.215 in in my career. I still sometimes put things up and I 130 00:08:23.215 --> 00:08:26.879 think, maybe I shouldn't have said that, or 131 00:08:26.939 --> 00:08:30.539 or finish a really stressful day at work and start doom 132 00:08:30.539 --> 00:08:34.255 scrolling through know, anti trans rhetoric on TikTok and 133 00:08:34.255 --> 00:08:37.955 think maybe that wasn't the best thing for my well-being 134 00:08:38.015 --> 00:08:41.830 today, but it's inescapable. And, you know, and 135 00:08:41.830 --> 00:08:45.450 I think, like you like you said, with this generational 136 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:49.545 divide is that progress has been 137 00:08:49.685 --> 00:08:53.524 so quick. If you look at where we were, where sort of the 138 00:08:53.524 --> 00:08:57.065 oldest generation that's currently in work started work versus 139 00:08:57.125 --> 00:09:00.610 where GEN-Z's are in terms of technology, in terms of 140 00:09:00.610 --> 00:09:04.310 culture, in terms of politics. The the landscape 141 00:09:04.529 --> 00:09:08.165 is vastly different. There are, of course, lots 142 00:09:08.165 --> 00:09:12.005 of similarities, but we we're 143 00:09:12.005 --> 00:09:15.780 seeing a generation that's, you know, always had tech, that's 144 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:19.240 always had access to the computers, that's always had access to a phone, 145 00:09:19.540 --> 00:09:23.365 and that expects everything to be quite instant and quite 146 00:09:23.365 --> 00:09:27.205 quick to the point where I employ people who are 147 00:09:27.205 --> 00:09:31.020 like, what do you mean you're gonna email me? The idea of 148 00:09:31.020 --> 00:09:34.860 an email is just completely redundant now, which is even a shock 149 00:09:34.860 --> 00:09:38.080 for me. So I think there's a massive gap 150 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:42.305 between sort of one end of the workforce and the other end of the 151 00:09:42.305 --> 00:09:45.745 workforce that I'm not sure that we're doing in a 152 00:09:45.745 --> 00:09:49.430 fantastic job at bridging, or at least that's what the 153 00:09:49.430 --> 00:09:52.570 people I work with are telling me. Yeah. I I spoke to intergenerational 154 00:09:53.830 --> 00:09:57.535 consultant experts in the past, and one of the things they've highlighted to me 155 00:09:57.535 --> 00:10:01.375 is is is the it's incumbent on the older generation 156 00:10:01.375 --> 00:10:05.055 to reach down. We shouldn't be expecting the younger generation 157 00:10:05.055 --> 00:10:08.230 to reach up to us. So, you know, I I have to put the the 158 00:10:08.230 --> 00:10:11.830 work in to to understand the younger generation, not expect the 159 00:10:11.830 --> 00:10:15.345 younger generation to to meet me where I am. I think a lot of people 160 00:10:15.345 --> 00:10:17.745 forget that because what we see a lot of the stuff in the in the 161 00:10:17.745 --> 00:10:21.025 in the press, in the media, the toxic doomscrolling we do on Twitter and other 162 00:10:21.025 --> 00:10:24.440 places, is that it's it's the older generation 163 00:10:25.300 --> 00:10:28.980 basically telling the younger generation they don't know what they're doing. They're they're too immature. 164 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:32.805 How how can they possibly know what's going on? And I 165 00:10:33.925 --> 00:10:37.704 whether it's around gender identity, neurodivergency, 166 00:10:38.805 --> 00:10:42.490 whatever it may be, there's this there's this belief that 167 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:45.390 young people are not 168 00:10:46.170 --> 00:10:49.025 not mature enough to know who they are. 169 00:10:49.645 --> 00:10:53.085 Yeah. And and I think I I know where a lot of 170 00:10:53.085 --> 00:10:56.839 consultants come with that narrative that we need to make 171 00:10:56.839 --> 00:11:00.600 sure that we connect. You know, the older generation are reaching 172 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:04.040 down. But I think I approach almost all of my 173 00:11:04.040 --> 00:11:07.855 work slightly differently where I feel that, actually, 174 00:11:07.855 --> 00:11:10.915 it's it's a mutual collaboration. We're not 175 00:11:11.455 --> 00:11:15.199 trying to create workforces where people 176 00:11:15.199 --> 00:11:18.959 are, you know, dictating how things are done anymore. That's that's that's changed a lot 177 00:11:18.959 --> 00:11:22.480 in the last sort of few years. And I think this this sort of 178 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.165 culture of collaboration has to extend beyond 179 00:11:26.225 --> 00:11:29.925 getting work done and actually has to come into building 180 00:11:29.985 --> 00:11:33.765 teams and culture within an organisation. And I think, actually, 181 00:11:34.290 --> 00:11:37.810 whilst there's always gonna have to be an element of reaching down to bring people 182 00:11:37.810 --> 00:11:40.949 up, you know, when we talk about things like mentoring, 183 00:11:41.410 --> 00:11:45.045 sponsoring young adults, then, yeah, absolutely, that's reaching down. But I 184 00:11:45.045 --> 00:11:48.645 also think that, young adults have their 185 00:11:48.645 --> 00:11:52.405 part to play in developing a workplace as well 186 00:11:52.405 --> 00:11:55.930 and something that I think we need to move past sometimes 187 00:11:55.990 --> 00:11:59.050 with sort of DNI consultancy 188 00:12:00.070 --> 00:12:03.815 is this idea that it's them and us when actually it should 189 00:12:03.815 --> 00:12:07.495 be more about collaborating to create, you know, really 190 00:12:07.495 --> 00:12:10.795 healthy, and sort of community esque 191 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:14.500 spaces, which I think speaks a lot to what GEN-Z are looking 192 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:17.860 for. You know, we did a piece of research. We found 193 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:21.425 that, I I believe this was Ipsos again, found that on 194 00:12:21.425 --> 00:12:24.945 average, a GEN-Zer will leave their job within 12 months if they don't fit 195 00:12:24.945 --> 00:12:28.245 in with, like, the the ethics and culture of the workforce. 196 00:12:29.250 --> 00:12:32.930 When we spoke to the GEN-Z audience that we work with, it was even 197 00:12:32.930 --> 00:12:36.530 shorter. It was 6 months when they're LGBTQIA+ and 198 00:12:36.530 --> 00:12:39.835 GEN-Z, which shows that they 199 00:12:40.135 --> 00:12:43.275 younger people are quite quick to move out of a space. 200 00:12:43.495 --> 00:12:46.930 And it's actually worrying when you think that, you know, 201 00:12:46.930 --> 00:12:50.690 roughly 1 in 4 GEN-Z is our LGBTQIA+. That's a quarter of the 202 00:12:50.690 --> 00:12:54.444 workforce every 6 months when you look at GEN-Z. And I think 203 00:12:54.444 --> 00:12:58.204 that we all have a part to play in developing a culture 204 00:12:58.204 --> 00:13:01.665 that we wanna work within a business. You say yeah. I 205 00:13:02.650 --> 00:13:05.310 I grew up in a generation where my parents 206 00:13:06.330 --> 00:13:10.075 effectively had a job for life. They were they didn't they didn't 207 00:13:10.075 --> 00:13:13.855 move around much. They didn't travel much. They kind of lived and worked 208 00:13:14.475 --> 00:13:17.915 a bus ride away or a walk away, yeah, in a dockyard, in the government, 209 00:13:17.915 --> 00:13:21.636 in the council, in a in a big traditional company. And they they kind 210 00:13:21.636 --> 00:13:25.321 of stayed there for life. I got I was probably the one of the 211 00:13:25.321 --> 00:13:28.635 first generation where you probably expect 4 or 5 years and then move on 4 212 00:13:28.635 --> 00:13:31.915 or 5 years, and it was frowned upon if you move too quickly. And I've 213 00:13:31.915 --> 00:13:34.654 seen recent stats from The REC, The Recruitment 214 00:13:35.630 --> 00:13:39.390 Employement Confederation, where they talk around tenure moving 215 00:13:39.390 --> 00:13:42.830 down to 2a half, 3 years. So what we're saying here is is 216 00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:46.625 GEN-Z's are looking for, well, potentially 6 to 12 months worth 217 00:13:46.625 --> 00:13:50.325 of tenure. What what could organisations do to 218 00:13:50.464 --> 00:13:53.540 to try and get, I suppose, 18 to 24 months? 219 00:13:54.180 --> 00:13:58.019 Because presumably, they're moving on because they they want something more. What what is the 220 00:13:58.019 --> 00:14:01.765 more they want? Yeah. So Deloitte did a piece of 221 00:14:01.765 --> 00:14:05.285 research, and they classified gen z as an 222 00:14:05.285 --> 00:14:08.585 activist generation with regards to 223 00:14:08.930 --> 00:14:12.290 the way that they act both in their workforce and as a society. And I 224 00:14:12.290 --> 00:14:16.130 think you only have to look at TikTok to to see that's really 225 00:14:16.130 --> 00:14:19.925 true. Everyone has this issue, the social issue they care 226 00:14:19.925 --> 00:14:23.765 about whether or not they're working in the same directions. You 227 00:14:23.765 --> 00:14:27.445 know, actually, you still have a social issue and and it being not a 228 00:14:27.445 --> 00:14:30.810 very progressive one. But GEN-Z as a whole 229 00:14:31.189 --> 00:14:34.889 care a lot about their personal morals and ethics, 230 00:14:35.430 --> 00:14:39.055 and I think that creating a workforce where 231 00:14:41.915 --> 00:14:45.700 the the culture aligns with that moral and ethics 232 00:14:45.760 --> 00:14:49.520 is really important. But I also think that getting 233 00:14:49.520 --> 00:14:52.880 D&I right, so diversity and inclusion, as much as we might 234 00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:56.545 think, it's just often processes. Actually, 235 00:14:56.545 --> 00:15:00.245 GEN-Z is the most racially diverse, ethnically diverse 236 00:15:00.384 --> 00:15:04.180 generation on record as well. So I think to 237 00:15:04.660 --> 00:15:08.020 to really attract and retain GEN-Z, we're talking about 238 00:15:08.020 --> 00:15:11.800 developing cultures here which go beyond getting work done 239 00:15:12.585 --> 00:15:16.345 and really starting to bring the belonging part of 240 00:15:16.345 --> 00:15:19.885 what has been D&I, ED&I, 241 00:15:20.769 --> 00:15:24.370 EDB&I. Actually, this the belonging part is 242 00:15:24.370 --> 00:15:27.970 becoming increasingly important in a workplace because they want to 243 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:31.725 feel part of something bigger and something that aligns 244 00:15:31.725 --> 00:15:35.345 with who they are and their values and morals. And I think that that 245 00:15:35.725 --> 00:15:39.470 really helps to retain people. You know, I see within 246 00:15:39.470 --> 00:15:43.090 my work only a small team, a team of 247 00:15:43.150 --> 00:15:46.505 8. And when we did our last 248 00:15:46.565 --> 00:15:50.325 cultural survey where everyone anonymously feeds back on the 249 00:15:50.325 --> 00:15:54.069 working conditions in the organisation, All of my 250 00:15:54.069 --> 00:15:57.910 staff rated the fact that they loved work 10 stars 251 00:15:57.910 --> 00:16:01.665 out of 10 stars. We worked really hard, but it's the 252 00:16:01.665 --> 00:16:05.204 opportunity. It's the fact that we're working in a direction that aligns 253 00:16:05.264 --> 00:16:09.089 with their personal ethics and morals, which I think makes such a difference. And 254 00:16:09.089 --> 00:16:12.929 that's the fundamentals, isn't it? You you you need to be able to be 255 00:16:13.089 --> 00:16:16.930 well, the old adage of bringing yourself to work, psychological safety. It's 256 00:16:16.930 --> 00:16:20.535 about being celebrated with who you are, and the belongingness 257 00:16:20.755 --> 00:16:24.275 resonates in the mission of the organisation as well. So you're not you're not having 258 00:16:24.275 --> 00:16:27.575 to compromise your own personal values, and that's yeah. 259 00:16:27.890 --> 00:16:31.170 Absolutely. But I think also to touch on what you said around, you know, your 260 00:16:31.170 --> 00:16:35.010 parents' generation having a job for life. If you think about it, 261 00:16:35.010 --> 00:16:38.485 gen z are the 1st generation but are really going into the 262 00:16:38.485 --> 00:16:42.245 workforce, maybe millennials actually. And you're saying to them, you're gonna work your 263 00:16:42.245 --> 00:16:45.785 entire life, and you're probably never gonna own a house. You're probably not gonna retire, 264 00:16:46.245 --> 00:16:49.370 and you're probably not gonna have that much money to live comfortably. You're probably gonna 265 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:53.130 earn about £30,000, which will about cover the council tax bill if you 266 00:16:53.130 --> 00:16:56.975 live in parts of the southeast of England. You know, I think 267 00:16:56.975 --> 00:17:00.115 because of that, because there isn't the prospect of 268 00:17:00.574 --> 00:17:04.174 almost using work to catapult your social and personal 269 00:17:04.174 --> 00:17:07.740 life, there's more of a need to integrate the 2 270 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:11.339 now. Do I mean, my my perception, I could be completely wrong, is 271 00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:14.240 that gen z are are multiple 272 00:17:15.255 --> 00:17:18.395 income generators. You know, they have their own they monetize 273 00:17:18.695 --> 00:17:22.190 gaming, monetize personal brand. They they have 274 00:17:22.190 --> 00:17:25.309 cottage industries. They're on Etsy. They're producing stuff. They're 275 00:17:25.710 --> 00:17:29.470 so their, yeah, their their day job is just part of 276 00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:33.304 their portfolio of of income generation opportunities, isn't it? 277 00:17:33.705 --> 00:17:37.465 Massively. Really. So many of the young adults that I work 278 00:17:37.465 --> 00:17:41.300 with, you know, one of them at the moment has been working really 279 00:17:41.300 --> 00:17:44.900 hard to get into the law industry. He's also a dog 280 00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:48.200 walker in the evenings, he's also selling 281 00:17:48.684 --> 00:17:52.285 little pendants that they make on Etsy, and I I think that's really common. I 282 00:17:52.285 --> 00:17:56.044 remember when I was starting out, you know, over the last sort of 283 00:17:56.125 --> 00:17:59.670 I've been doing this job now for coming up 5 years, but prior to that, 284 00:17:59.670 --> 00:18:03.110 we'd always have a day job and a gay job, which should be, you know, 285 00:18:03.110 --> 00:18:06.475 daytime corporate jobs, selling bathrooms for the most part, and 286 00:18:06.475 --> 00:18:10.315 then in the evenings was paid as a a youth worker 287 00:18:10.315 --> 00:18:13.700 for LGBTQIA+ young people. And I think, 288 00:18:14.179 --> 00:18:17.700 yeah, the idea of just doing one thing at a time is is gone as 289 00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:21.465 well because it's it's not it's not affordable to do 290 00:18:21.465 --> 00:18:25.304 that, really. No. I'm well, as a Gen X, I 291 00:18:25.304 --> 00:18:28.810 value my portfolio business, if you like. I 292 00:18:29.210 --> 00:18:32.510 I feel much more empowered now than I ever did in my 293 00:18:32.570 --> 00:18:36.190 traditional, old fashioned one job mentality. Mhmm. 294 00:18:36.410 --> 00:18:40.145 I love the ability to pick something up, do something with it, pick something else 295 00:18:40.145 --> 00:18:43.365 up, and have 10 different things on the go all the time. And it's, 296 00:18:43.904 --> 00:18:47.350 it's immensely empowering putting your eggs in multiple 297 00:18:47.350 --> 00:18:50.610 baskets rather than just having, this one income stream. Jo 298 00:18:51.990 --> 00:18:55.765 we we look at what's going on, you know, socially, politically, if you 299 00:18:55.765 --> 00:18:59.605 like. We I turned on gender identity, and I mentioned it briefly about 300 00:18:59.605 --> 00:19:03.080 neurodiversity. There is a we're scaring 301 00:19:03.139 --> 00:19:06.840 adults, aren't we, with these things? Adults get really scared that there's 302 00:19:07.059 --> 00:19:10.865 this explosion. How can we help adults to understand it? Or sorry. Older 303 00:19:10.865 --> 00:19:13.745 adults, not young you know, not young people, young adults. How do we how do 304 00:19:13.745 --> 00:19:16.865 we help older people get used to the idea that this is the reality of 305 00:19:16.865 --> 00:19:20.539 the world? Yeah. Well, I almost see this 306 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:25.100 this anti woke narrative as almost being 307 00:19:25.395 --> 00:19:29.235 the the culture that a fear of not understanding has created. I mean, 308 00:19:29.235 --> 00:19:32.915 even to the point that actually the the meaning of woke is to be 309 00:19:32.915 --> 00:19:36.629 socially engaged and aware of others, it's actually not bad thing, 310 00:19:36.629 --> 00:19:40.309 but, like, even that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what it actually 311 00:19:40.309 --> 00:19:44.005 means to be woke. I think the reality is is that these 312 00:19:44.245 --> 00:19:48.025 identities have always been here. You know, we can trace being 313 00:19:48.085 --> 00:19:51.765 trans back to the origins of humanity. We can we can 314 00:19:51.765 --> 00:19:55.470 see, you know, trans goddesses and gods 315 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:59.010 within Mesopotamia, within ancient Egypt, within 316 00:19:59.710 --> 00:20:03.155 Rome. But for some reason, 317 00:20:03.535 --> 00:20:07.294 often, I think that that hasn't been on on the front 318 00:20:07.294 --> 00:20:10.940 foot. You know? Whether that's because of Section 28, whether that's because of 319 00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:14.620 criminalization, cultural norms, that it's 320 00:20:14.620 --> 00:20:18.220 just that whilst these identities have always existed, they've always been 321 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:21.384 considered on the fringe. I think that where 322 00:20:22.085 --> 00:20:25.764 it's coming more into the forefront is because people 323 00:20:25.764 --> 00:20:29.419 have more of an opportunity to explore, to be 324 00:20:29.419 --> 00:20:32.779 themselves. We see such higher numbers of GEN-Z 325 00:20:32.779 --> 00:20:35.915 identifying within sort of different marginalizing 326 00:20:36.535 --> 00:20:40.315 categories. Whether that's the right term to use, I'm still not a 100% 327 00:20:40.455 --> 00:20:44.260 confident. And I think to bring people along on the 328 00:20:44.260 --> 00:20:48.100 journey, it's it's about creating empathy and compassion for 329 00:20:48.100 --> 00:20:51.794 these people. I I think that's the main thing that we're often 330 00:20:51.794 --> 00:20:55.475 missing in all of these conversations is that when I 331 00:20:55.475 --> 00:20:59.315 think when you know somebody who is trans or when you know somebody who's 332 00:20:59.315 --> 00:21:02.930 neurodiverse, you often have a 333 00:21:02.930 --> 00:21:06.770 little bit more compassion to what it means to be that. Whether 334 00:21:06.770 --> 00:21:10.365 or not you understand it doesn't necessarily matter. But the fact 335 00:21:10.365 --> 00:21:14.145 that you know, you know, Oscar, the nonbinary, is actually 336 00:21:14.205 --> 00:21:17.404 a lovely person as as long as you feed them and and don't give them 337 00:21:17.404 --> 00:21:20.779 water after midnight or whatever it is. Is actually a lovely person. 338 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.340 All of a sudden, this this horrifying 339 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:29.465 narrative that is, you know, trans people are harming children starts to 340 00:21:29.465 --> 00:21:32.524 fade into the background because you know somebody who is 341 00:21:32.825 --> 00:21:36.264 trans, who is a nice person, who actually means the 342 00:21:36.264 --> 00:21:40.060 world to a lot of people. That sounds like I was really 343 00:21:40.060 --> 00:21:43.740 sort of blowing smoke there. That's not it's just an example. No. I didn't have 344 00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.880 to use myself or my own name. But I think that is 345 00:21:48.005 --> 00:21:51.684 how we can really help to change the tide is to, you 346 00:21:51.684 --> 00:21:55.450 know, educate, but also to build empathy and compassion. No. I I don't 347 00:21:55.450 --> 00:21:58.330 think you're blowing smoke there. I think what what you're doing is you're trying to 348 00:21:58.330 --> 00:22:01.760 do what we all need to do is humanize the conversations Mhmm. 349 00:22:02.010 --> 00:22:05.855 By bringing a real name, a real person, a real lived experience into this 350 00:22:05.855 --> 00:22:09.235 conversation. But saying, like, you know, you can't just create this dehumanisation, 351 00:22:09.535 --> 00:22:13.279 this this this this myths and tropes that keep getting rolled 352 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:16.880 out as as this nebulous group of activists. You know, if you look 353 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.860 at they're all we're always described as trans activists. 354 00:22:20.795 --> 00:22:24.155 If you look at the pictures that are shown, it's always people with banners, 355 00:22:24.155 --> 00:22:27.915 placards with flags around them, not people sitting around a desk trying 356 00:22:27.915 --> 00:22:31.750 to have sensible conversations, and it's it's framing doctors 357 00:22:31.750 --> 00:22:34.730 and professors looking all smart over here, and 358 00:22:35.270 --> 00:22:38.835 activists being angry and shouting and being disruptive, and 359 00:22:38.835 --> 00:22:42.355 anarchic over here. And I it's it's playing into that. The 360 00:22:42.355 --> 00:22:45.940 voices of sanity is the establishment. It's 361 00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:49.720 young people being young people being radical. Yeah. 362 00:22:50.100 --> 00:22:52.820 And, you know, I I have to say, I do have a little bit of 363 00:22:52.820 --> 00:22:56.335 a soft spot for direct action. But I think 364 00:22:56.955 --> 00:23:00.655 I honestly feel as if, you know, why is it that 365 00:23:01.355 --> 00:23:05.080 politicians, regardless of party, the 366 00:23:05.080 --> 00:23:08.680 media choose to pick on trans 367 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.820 people, on people with disabilities, on migrants. 368 00:23:12.040 --> 00:23:15.465 And it's because we're small. We're a small 369 00:23:15.525 --> 00:23:19.285 demographic of people, so there is much less of us to go 370 00:23:19.285 --> 00:23:22.820 around, which means it's much harder to build empathy and compassion 371 00:23:22.820 --> 00:23:26.179 into the conversations, and it's very much easier to 372 00:23:26.179 --> 00:23:30.020 profile a whole community. You know, when you make up less than 1% of 373 00:23:30.020 --> 00:23:33.635 the population, it's not that likely that a 374 00:23:33.635 --> 00:23:37.315 lot of people will know a trans 375 00:23:37.315 --> 00:23:40.919 person. And I think that's where the media, 376 00:23:41.059 --> 00:23:44.419 as much as right now, it can be, say, hostile against 377 00:23:44.419 --> 00:23:47.940 us, can also be one of our best tools in building that 378 00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:51.655 empathy and compassion and, you you know, especially things doesn't 379 00:23:51.655 --> 00:23:55.115 necessarily have to be television, but I feel 380 00:23:55.335 --> 00:23:58.190 TikTok, Dylan Mulvaney has a huge 381 00:23:58.890 --> 00:24:02.730 following. Regardless of what you think about what they the 382 00:24:02.730 --> 00:24:05.309 content they put out, what they put into this world, 383 00:24:06.225 --> 00:24:09.905 they are a role model. And they're a role model of a 384 00:24:09.905 --> 00:24:13.685 trans person and a a very early stage trans experience 385 00:24:14.625 --> 00:24:18.370 that actually people are witnessing for the first time, and 386 00:24:18.370 --> 00:24:21.510 that in itself is building compassion and empathy. So, 387 00:24:21.730 --> 00:24:25.525 yeah, whilst we were sort of talking at the start around 388 00:24:25.525 --> 00:24:28.965 how media is quite harmful for for 389 00:24:28.965 --> 00:24:32.645 GEN-Z, it's also a fantastic opportunity for them as 390 00:24:32.645 --> 00:24:36.080 well. Yeah. And as soon as Dylan popped up 391 00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:39.760 on whatever platform it was advertising swimwear or 392 00:24:39.760 --> 00:24:43.455 whatever, beer and all these other things, It's the the 393 00:24:43.455 --> 00:24:47.135 hate machine kicks in, and it's that's the reality of of 394 00:24:47.135 --> 00:24:50.860 putting a head above the parapet as a queer person these days. When 395 00:24:50.860 --> 00:24:54.620 Dylan wore the I don't know if it's Nike or Nike. So excuse 396 00:24:54.620 --> 00:24:57.740 me if I say it wrong. But when Dylan wore the Nike leggings and it 397 00:24:57.740 --> 00:25:01.544 upset, you know, Twitter, go woke, go broke was the 398 00:25:01.544 --> 00:25:05.005 narrative that popped up. Nike actually saw a spike in profits 399 00:25:05.784 --> 00:25:09.500 and ended that quarter higher than 400 00:25:09.500 --> 00:25:13.340 was expected on the stock market. So it's 401 00:25:13.340 --> 00:25:17.120