Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your
Joanne Lockwood: sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into
Joanne Lockwood: the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal
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Joanne Lockwood: world where everyone not only belongs but thrives?
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Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 119 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title, Leading with Authenticity.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome
Joanne Lockwood: Dr Shelley Jones-Holt. Shelley is a courageous leadership
Joanne Lockwood: coach, author, and speaker. When I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Shelley to describe her superpower, she said, it is her
Joanne Lockwood: ability to bring people together that think
Joanne Lockwood: about the world and have experienced society differently
Joanne Lockwood: and creating a safe space for them to be authentic with each other
Joanne Lockwood: so that they can take brave actions together. Hello,
Joanne Lockwood: Shelley. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Jo. It's awesome to be here. And number 119, that has
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to be a special number. Maybe we'll play those numbers or something.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, yeah. Completely. There must be some sort of fen
Joanne Lockwood: tui or some sort of alignment of the planets that, that's our number
Joanne Lockwood: today. Jo, yeah, absolutely fantastic. So, Shelley, we were chatting in the
Joanne Lockwood: green room before we came on, and we were talking about a lot of things.
Joanne Lockwood: And the thing that came out of it was about being authentic, this authenticity.
Joanne Lockwood: So how do we lead with authenticity? There there
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are so many ways, and I have to say that part of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the reason that I love the title leading with authenticity is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: because so many times we we experience leadership where
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people are, quote, unquote, trying to lead. And this
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: idea of leading with authenticity, it implies that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you are enough, and you are amazing just as you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are, and there shouldn't be a different way that we need to show
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: up to be, quote, unquote, authentic. And so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: many times people feel like they need to almost fake authenticity or they
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: need to, you know, oh, I'm trying to lead in this way. And it's like,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: well, just be yourself and be honest and open and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: transparent with what it is you're trying to do. And trust
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that if you are open and honest and transparent,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people will will feel that, will feed off of that, and that's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: how you will grow people to follow you. And it's also how you'll
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: build other leaders. Confident, authentic leaders breed
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and build confident, authentic leaders. And in this world right
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: now with the way things are, there are so many people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that are leading from a place of fear, or they're leading from a place
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of of feeling the need to please
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the hierarchy or please certain people in order to get opportunities
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that I truly believe that those who are truly at their
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: core authentic leaders, they're such a rare art form that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: those are going to be the leaders of tomorrow because they don't have to think
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about what it is they're doing. They're just being. And then as a result, they
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: lead from a place of being. So leading with authenticity,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it it requires courage, which we're gonna talk about in a moment. And there are
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: a lot of courageous things that we can do to lead, not just
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in the places we work, but leading where we live, leading where we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: learn, and leading where we earn in a way that we can be proud
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of that will truly change the world. So this idea of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: courageous authentic leadership is very near and dear to my heart, and I do
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: believe it authenticity or better yet,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the pulling off the cloaks of fear to to reveal authenticity
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: can be learned, which means that we're gonna have to unlearn some things to get
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: there. Yeah. I completely agree. I think I'm a great believer and
Joanne Lockwood: advocate, but leadership is a skill and a skill that could be
Joanne Lockwood: developed, nurtured, and learned as something we have to develop
Joanne Lockwood: always. We can't just I'm a leader now. I stop. It's
Joanne Lockwood: about continual improvement. When we look at leadership models
Joanne Lockwood: of past, though, we are often authoritarian,
Joanne Lockwood: ego driven. How and maybe some new leaders or
Joanne Lockwood: people emerging to the leadership field may be role modeling
Joanne Lockwood: different behaviors. Jo how can we make sure that we we are authentic
Joanne Lockwood: and not ego driven? Oh my goodness. Well, first of all, I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: would say that we have to recognize when we're being
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: inauthentic and the and the triggers that will
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: create that in in in that lack of authenticity, if you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: will. And so knowing that when you get into
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: prickly situations, when you get into difficult situations,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: unsure situations, or you're dealing with people who are different from
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: yourself that you typically may not may feel a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: little bit of trepidation with dealing with. And being honest
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and open with ourselves about that will help us
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: realize, oh, I may have a tendency to be inauthentic in
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: this place and space. Now that I can recognize
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that the propensity to be inauthentic, I can be intentional
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about interrupting that that feeling, that thought, and figure
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: out, like, what is my authentic place and space in this? What's my do I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have questions that I wanna ask that maybe I'm a little embarrassed about? How can
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I go about doing that? I think one of the biggest things that we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: can do, I operate using Dominique Ruiz's 4 agreements,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and it's something that I use. I help to help people build that safe
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: space with one another. And if you're unfamiliar with the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the, Four Agreements from Dom Miguel Ruiz, it's a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: book I highly recommend everyone have a copy
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of. It's one that I give my chill my own children. I have 8
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of them when they turn 13 almost as a rite of passage
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: because growing up black in America or black in the world, period.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: They're going to have to find ways to deal with the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: internal challenges that the external world will will bring them.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And so it's it helps them to find that center of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authenticity early so that when they get in those prickly
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: situations, they can identify that it okay. This is gonna be a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: situation where I'm gonna struggle to not be a pleaser
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: or to do what I you know, the system wants me to do as opposed
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to what I know is right by the people and recognizing that the system
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: sometimes will have us do things to people that are not good for people,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: but they're good for the system, which is a whole different conversation,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: but that's one of those situations that can lead to inauthenticity.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: If you have a foundation in being impeccable with your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: word, which is the first agreement, Not to take anything personal.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Recognize that what other people do is not about you.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: That is about them, and they have their own burdens that they're gonna have to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: figure out. Being able to not make assumptions and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: instead have the courage to ask a clarifying question,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: or as we like to say, have the courage to grill that beef up and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: eat it because it has to do with you. And if you don't have the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: courage to ask, then you need to let that go. Right? And
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: then the 4th agreement is just doing the best you can and recognizing your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: best is gonna be different moment to moment, situation to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: situation. Your best is gonna be different if you've just experienced a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: trauma or a death or quite frankly if you're just tired.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Your best is gonna be different, and we have to learn to forgive ourselves in
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: those moments. Being able to walk in those agreements is gonna
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: breed authenticity because I if you're doing something,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I'm not gonna take that on as something that has to do with me. I'm
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: gonna continue to be me. Speaking light and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: positivity into myself even when I make mistakes. That's about
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: me embracing the learning process of growing and being a a different
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: person tomorrow, a better person tomorrow than I was yesterday. The
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: ability to not make assumptions and either say to myself, either I'm
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: gonna have a the courage to you know let's say I'm meeting
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: someone for the first time or go up and have that conversation,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: or I may have a question about someone who is different and comes from a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: different cultural background. Do I have the courage to ask? You know?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Hey. Do you mind sharing with me a little bit about, you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know, your story around whatever versus all the assumptions
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and predictions that we make automatically, and then we act on
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: them and get embarrassed when we commit microaggressions.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Right? So it's it's a way of being, and I think
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: bringing in building authenticity is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: something that happens long before we get to the job, long before
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: we get to interacting with other people. It
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: starts in childhood. It starts in how we're raised, and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's at where I really do believe our leadership conversations need to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: shift into how we're growing and developing our young leaders
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of today who, if you've turned on TikTok or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Snapchat, you realize they have no problem being authentic and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: telling you about yourself or themselves for that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: matter. And that that's one of the challenges, isn't it? The the
Joanne Lockwood: word authentic means being true to yourself
Joanne Lockwood: and some of your your values and some of the driving forces.
Joanne Lockwood: But it's not licensed to say
Joanne Lockwood: and speak anything in in with the you know, using
Joanne Lockwood: it's but it's my authentic truth. I deserve to be able to say that. That's
Joanne Lockwood: not what it's about, is it? No. Not at all. That to me,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's, you know, taking authenticity to a place of being
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: mean and evil spirited. So being if your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentic self means that you wanna harm other people, then quite
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: frankly, there is something going on with you and your internal self that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: requires, you know, medical intervention because that's not a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: natural state and a naturally positive, healthy,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: productive way of being. I mean, if you wake up in the morning, you know,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: trying to figure out how I can harm people and hurt people's feelings with
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: my words today because they disagree with me, like, get some
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: help because that's not the way that, you know, quality
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentic debate happens. Now I could have differences
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of opinion. I can have differences in experiences,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and I can share my differences in a way that is still
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: respectful and in speaking your truth. So the other set
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of agreements that I didn't quite talk about come from a a a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: friend of ours by the name of Glenn Singleton who wrote
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: a a book about 30 years ago that he has, you know, reached
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: international fame called courageous conversations
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about race. And what he speaks about is the need
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to stay engaged in the conversations, to speak your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: truth, and speaking your truth can be done in a way
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's respectful and positive. I can speak about racialized
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: experiences being a black woman in America and how people who
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: identify as white have caused harm historically and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: currently without then pointing at every person who I think
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: identifies as white and talking about how they owe me or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: they did this, that, and the other. Those are very different
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: conversations. I can speak about history and its impact on
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: folks or even my current experience even if someone of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the with someone who shares an identity with those who I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: may see as villains in my story. But I don't have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to insult the other person or and they don't have to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: accept responsibility or blame or shame for that. It's my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: story. And there are people of African descent that have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: been the villains in other people's story. I don't take that on.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And so, again, this idea that I can be authentic, I can
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: speak my truth, and even if it harms other people, well, that's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: where you have to wonder, like, why would you wanna speak your truth in a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: way that harms? Now if it impacts someone and they
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: may take offense to it or they may feel some kind of way about it,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's very different from intending to cause harm and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: being disrespectful or or in any way
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what's the word I'm looking for? Irresponsible, if you will, with your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: words. And so this idea of speaking your truth does not come
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: without consequence. This idea of being your authentic
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: self does not mean that everybody is going to accept it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and and be willing to, you know, kinda tolerate
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: your truth. So you gotta be think about situate what we call
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: situational appropriateness. So the truth that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I'm going my true self around, let's say, my grandparents
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: versus my true self and authentic self around my girlfriends
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: versus my true self when, you know, I'm with someone who I just met
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and we're having, you know, a semi professional, semi personal
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: conversation, is gonna be very different, and that's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: okay. You know, we sit I think people mistake
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: speaking their truth with, oh, I don't have to take responsibility
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: for it afterwards, or I can also be situationally inappropriate,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and that is not the case. Leading with authenticity means
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I'm also aware of my surroundings and my impact on those
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: surroundings, and I want my truth to uplift. If I'm
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: telling a story about you know, let's say, I often tell the story
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about how I left the plantation when I left the, you know, w two world
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and what that meant for me. And for some people who are still
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: there, they may go, oh goodness. Well, I'm still on the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the, quote, unquote, plantation. Does that mean she looks down on me? And it's like,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it has nothing to do with that. That's my story. That was my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: experience. And I am allowed to walk in it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentically. And guess what? There are some people like my husband who
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: loves working in his w two world. Work it out. That
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that works for you. They're just different parts of our stories.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: So when we talk about leading with authenticity, I think there
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is a certain responsibility we have to be conscious
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of because it does not mean that you just get to say whatever you want,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: do whatever you want, and mistreat people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in any way you want because that's just being irresponsible and quite frankly
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: mean and evil, and that's not what we're about. You mentioned a couple of
Joanne Lockwood: things there. 1 was this, w two, and you
Joanne Lockwood: mentioned leaving the plantation. Can I can can you unpack a bit of
Joanne Lockwood: that? Because, it's not a phrase that I've heard of and many of our listeners
Joanne Lockwood: probably wouldn't have heard of those. So absolutely, Jo. I do
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I knew I was gonna lobby that one up, and I knew we're gonna have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to dunk that one. So I often will speak about
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: as an entrepreneur, and and I really do appreciate the freedoms
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: there, but also there's a lot of responsibility, I must say, that comes with being
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: an entrepreneur. I became an entrepreneur after
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: working about a little under 25 years in the school system here
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in America. And the reason I called it the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: plantation, it's not, you know, just a, you know, a funny term. But
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: when you think about what plantations meant to this country, what
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: was expected in plantations in this country, They for some
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people, they were a source of a lot of income. They were the source of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: great generational wealth. They were the source of happy memories,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and there was definitely an expected hierarchy or a systemic
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: hierarchy when you were on the plantation that everyone knew. And if you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: violated it in any way, there were measures that would be taken
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: regardless of race at this point to keep people in
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: line. And, unfortunately, many people don't
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: may may find it difficult to face the fact that our schools
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and sometimes our workplaces operate in much the same way.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And these spaces with their unwritten and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: written rules can be very oppressive to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people who don't fit the mold or who think differently or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: imagine us in an educational system, someone who's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: very autistic. And and I said r with a artistic with an
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: r. And, you know, they express themselves
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: very creatively, and yet the system is very
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: traditionalist. You take these tests. You answer these questions. You show me your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: knowledge in this way. Well, there are systems that at
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: play in the educational system very much like in the plantation
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that are not healthy for everyone. I was one of those people that did
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: not necessarily have the the always the healthiest
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: experience. Although I was very successful on the plantation, what
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it did for my my psyche and my mental health was
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: detrimental much like, you know, our plantations of the past. So the reason
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I called it the plantation is because it gives people a very
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: clear connection to the systems and the rules that operated
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and the way people then experience things differently. And, you know, if you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: did well in the PlayStation, you receive society's rewards, whether it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: be financial, whether it be societal. But if you didn't do well on
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the plantation, you didn't weren't allowed society's rewards.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And part of my efforts to liberate myself from the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: plantation, it's also the mindset you have to have to survive and thrive in
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: these spaces. In order to survive and thrive on the plantation, people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: who look like me had to operate in ways that are oftentimes
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: completely counterintuitive to who they are, counterproductive to their
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: psyche and well-being. And, I mean, not that you would have any kind of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: understanding of what that would mean, Jo, because, of course, you've been in
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: spaces where if you're the only or if you're different, that's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: going to impact you, especially if you know that that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: difference is going to lead to you having struggles with being
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: successful. And so when I left the plantation about 5 years
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: ago, I have to say there was a period of time where leaving that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: w two security, leaving the benefits,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and I'm talking about the health benefits, the medical benefits, the vision
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: benefits. Like, there's all these benefits that they give you with staying safe
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: on these plantations within the system. That the minute you come
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: outside of that, they're like, yeah. You can leave, but you gotta take care of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: yourself on your own. It's kinda like what happened in, you know, the 18
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: sixties with the emancipation proclamation. It's like, okay. I'll free you, but now you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: gotta go figure this out on your own. And all of these
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: different scenarios diminish and deplete,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: sometimes create barriers to our abilities to lead
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentically. And so it after I left, I had a period
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of time where I had to figure out, like, who am I? What is it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that I really wanna do? Because the only me I knew professionally
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: was the me that had to survive in these spaces. And so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leaving that, you have this whole other world was like, I don't
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have to, you know, do whatever that is. I don't have to I don't have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to have a traditional workday. I don't have to start my day at 7 AM
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and end it at 5. If I wanna start my day at noon and it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: ends at 8, like, I can do that now. And so this even something
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: as small as that, being able to say not feel guilty to take
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: my kids to school or pick them up and take those breaks in time. Or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in the evening time, I'm gonna split out my day for how I'm gonna
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: work so that I can put my family first as opposed to,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: well, the boss said I have to be here during these times, and I have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to do x, y, and z. So, you know, I can't pick you up or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I can't go to this event. To me, that's all a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: way of living that keeps us from the freedoms that we say
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: this country and the world is all about. Excuse me. You mentioned,
Joanne Lockwood: as bless you. Sorry. You talked just looking
Joanne Lockwood: back a bit to authenticity again. You you mentioned, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: you're you're you're a mom. You've got your friends. You've got your girlfriends. You've got
Joanne Lockwood: your you've got your work. You got 8 different you got 8 children, I think
Joanne Lockwood: you said. And presumably, each one of those
Joanne Lockwood: children is a unique human being, and they have their own
Joanne Lockwood: sensitivities and their own ways of talking to them. So when we talk
Joanne Lockwood: about being authentic, there's a danger that you are
Joanne Lockwood: perceived as inauthentic because you're wearing these multiple
Joanne Lockwood: hats and you're swapping between characters. So which
Joanne Lockwood: one is the true you? And they can all be the true you.
Joanne Lockwood: They're just different versions of you. Yes. It's the the
Joanne Lockwood: core of you is your values and your core
Joanne Lockwood: drivers that are the key factors of your authenticity.
Joanne Lockwood: The fact you have to be situational, and you you talked about in
Joanne Lockwood: terms of intent and impact, it's about
Joanne Lockwood: context. You have to understand the context in which you're operating and
Joanne Lockwood: communicating. So how how could
Joanne Lockwood: leaders recognize that needs to switch
Joanne Lockwood: hats and to switch personality types to be situational?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Well, I think, first of all, in order to understand that, you have to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: understand that equity is one of my core values. And I define
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: equity using the Jeff Duncan on doctor I'm
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: sorry, doctor Jeff Duncan Andrade version, which is equity is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: getting people what they need, when they need it. And with his permission,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I've added in the way they need it delivered. And so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: at my core, if if I am leading a situation, whether I'm
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leading a multimillion dollar organization,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: whether I'm leading my business or my nonprofit, whether I'm leading
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the girl scout troop or my sorority, or whether I'm leading my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: home. My goal as a leader is to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: serve. Right? And so my and so in order to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: serve someone, you have to find out what they need. Imagine if you went
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to a restaurant and the and the server just came and said, I got you.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: It brings you whatever it is that they just wanted to bring you because that's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what they were serving that day. You feel like, well, why you give me a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: menu? Why did you like, what am I doing here?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Right? And that's often the times the way people experience
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: inauthentic or kind of blanket leadership, if you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: will. It's that people have these ideas of what they believe
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leadership should be, and then they go and be that thing.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Or even worse is they'll get their ideas of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what leadership should look like from those that they're not leading, I e
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: your higher ups. So you have some boss or somebody who's telling
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you this is what your people need. If you ever have a boss that's telling
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you what other people need, first of all, run. Because, you know, it's like,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: where is the data, the information that I can actually get what my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people need and be able to provide that to them?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: If you're truly leading for service, for equity, and getting people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what they need, when they need it, in the way you they need it delivered,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the first thing you'll recognize is that everybody doesn't even receive
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: information the same way. First, they don't need the same information or the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: same support, and they're not gonna receive it in the same way. So I'll take
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it to something as simple as parenting. Yes. I have 8 kids. 6 that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I birth, 2 are my free gifts with purchase. But I'll tell you the way
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that I sometimes have to talk with my 30 year
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: old and the way that I have to talk with my 7 year old who
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have very different needs of me is different from what my 23
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: year old who's in law school needs. So I might pick up the phone,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and my 23 year old needs to have a conversation about managing
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stress because he's in the middle of finals. And so he's gonna, you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know, wanna tap into that part of mom that is saying, hey. I need to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: manage stress. Like, what tips do I have? I'm also dealing with somebody who
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: has his own stresses and trials and tribulations.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: You kinda remind me of him, Jo, sometimes because he does. He wears the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: black nail polish, and he's just so different and eclectic.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: But, you know, he's his own man, and that's but he also has
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: his own challenges. I am as his mother, at at that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: moment when he says, mom, I need this, I need to figure out a way
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to get him what he needs. Conversely, in the next 15 minutes, my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: 7 year old could come in. And all he wants and needs is to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: figure out what he needs to do with his chores to get that little, you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know, box of Pringles that he wants. I know. So it's very simple to please
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: 7 year olds. He's like, mom, did I did I do all my chores? I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: took out the trash. I did this. I did. Can I have my Pringles in
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: my, you know, 15 minutes of video game time? So the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: conversation is very, very different with him. Now I'm gonna flip,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and 15 minutes later, I'm now talking to my 30 year old. She
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: wants to talk about life and maybe some things that are happening at work or,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you know, some things that are happening in her current relationship or, you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know, whatever it is. Again, I have to put on a different hat. She
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: may even be talking about, oh, I'm thinking about buying a house. What does that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: mean? Gotta put on a different hat. My point of being
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentic leaders is that if you're gonna be an authentic
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leader who is based in equity, you have to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know the people that you serve and do what's necessary to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: meet those people where they are and get them what they need when they need
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it in the way they need it delivered. As a superintendent, my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: assistant superintendents had different needs than some of my directors,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: than some of my principals, and some of them are meant to serve each other.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And so sometimes it's a matter of building up whether it's skills,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: whether it's capacity, whether it's courage, whatever it is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that people need to build within themselves, you've gotta look at, okay,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what are the skills or capacities they need? That's one piece of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: information you need in order to lead with authenticity. And then how did the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what part of me do they need? How do they need me to deliver it?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: How does it need to be said? How are they gonna receive this in the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: best way? Perhaps what experiences that they had that I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: may need to take into account? Because the way that, let's say, I'm
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: going to support my my very strong
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: willed yet Muslim leader who is just coming out of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Ramadan, and so she may be a little disjointed at work because she's had
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: a hue like, kind of when we when those of us who are Christian come
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: back from Christmas break, you wouldn't want your boss then come and say,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: okay. Now what's going on with this 10 point project that you've been off for
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: 3 weeks? And, you know, give you a little bit of time to kind of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: get acclimated. So the way I'm gonna approach that person, let's say
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: right now, may be very different from how I approach
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: an equally competent, but might be a little bit more
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: mousy and a little bit more sensitive in their receipt of information from the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: boss. So the way I'm gonna approach my strong will leader who's coming
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: out of of a religious celebration, and so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: her mind might not be fully focused. He might little little bit a chance to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: acclimate versus the way I'm gonna approach my person over here who
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: has a very different personality. And they may need the same thing.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Let's say they need the same training or they need the same, you know,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: cultural connection that I need to help them make. But the way I'm gonna
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: approach one person is gonna be very different how I'm gonna approach the other.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I might or might not do it together. These are the pieces of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentic leadership. She's gonna need a side of doctor Shelley
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that meaning the person who is a bit more sensitive, I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: can't come directly at her. I might have to explain the situation and tell a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: story and help her see how she's capable of doing this
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and really able to do this well, and then, you know, kinda drop on her.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And these are the things that I want you to work on. This person here
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: may want it. She very strong willed, very direct. It's like, just give it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to me, and I'll figure it out. So I might come in. It might be
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: a very much quicker, shorter conversation, be directly to the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: point. I need you to work on how you're talking with our
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: customers who may have strong accents. I've noticed on a few of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: your calls or your conversations that you may you tend to get a little
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: impatient with people with accents, so I need you to think about that. Now
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: she's got something to think about. Could have the same recommendation or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: thought or conversation with the this person over here, and I'm gonna
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: approach it very differently. I'm still me. I'm still
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leaning with authenticity, but my approach is the words I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: use, the trainings that I do are gonna be totally different because
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: my 2 people have very different needs. And I think that's a piece that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people believe. If I'm not doing giving people everything
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the same way, which is equality, it's not equity,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: then I'm not being authentic. I'm not, you know, whatever it is that the story
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that people tell in their heads. And so I think this piece about
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: understanding your audience is huge. Go ahead. Yeah. To pick up on
Joanne Lockwood: that, you talk about your the different people in your team. We have
Joanne Lockwood: to, as a leader, recognize you know, you
Joanne Lockwood: talk about equity, and equity is not just around someone having a
Joanne Lockwood: disability or workplace need. It's also about equity around
Joanne Lockwood: personality types. Some people need to be bought into conversations.
Joanne Lockwood: Some people need to have the dial turned down a bit. It will yeah, give
Joanne Lockwood: other people the microphone for a second, or other people need to
Joanne Lockwood: have a more emotional, less logical connection. So as a leader, we're
Joanne Lockwood: also expecting not only this this contextual
Joanne Lockwood: switching between different modes in different parts of our life, but also
Joanne Lockwood: the context around the different personality types and different needs
Joanne Lockwood: of our team to get the best out of each one of them. So, again,
Joanne Lockwood: how do we learn these skills? How do I mean, it's we we we
Joanne Lockwood: say that leadership is a skill to be nurtured and developed. So what
Joanne Lockwood: can, an aspiring leader who listens to this podcast today
Joanne Lockwood: think about how can they they can bring those skills to play in everyday
Joanne Lockwood: life? The first thing I'll say to folks is get to know
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the people that you're working with and not just their skill
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: sets and what's on their resume. Who are they as human
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: beings? And the reason that oftentimes this is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: counterintuitive is because to go back to that plantation conversation.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: On the plantation where we are, you know,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: sometimes creating automatons and Autobots and you're expected to do
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: this, that, and the other, then personality and uniqueness is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: not valued. You're you're you know, how you feel about something is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: not a value. What is a value is your productivity.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Well, what we have learned since then about people is that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people are more productive in environments where they feel
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: welcomed. They feel appreciated. They feel like people know them, where they
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know that the exceptions that they bring with their
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: exceptional personalities and such and and their exceptional situations
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are going to be considered and appreciated. And that's how you're
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: going to get folks. You know, I often get people who will ask me, well,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Shelly, you know, you can get the folks that really do want to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: work with you. And I'm like, yes. Because they know I believe in them, and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that same person knows that if something is going on in their lives
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: where they need an exception or they need someone to understand, I want
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: them to feel like they can come to me and let me know, and we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: can work through that. And so I would say to any
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: new leader or any leader who's looking at shifting their ways or your team
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is just not quite operating in the way that you would like them
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to, I would ask them, like, what do you know about your people? What do
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you know about their likes, their dislikes, what it is that motivates
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: them and moves them? I think we've gotten into this space that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: COVID has really illuminated for us where you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know, I remember hearing this even when I would started working. You know? I know
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it was only 10 minutes ago, but but, you know, over 25 years ago, when
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I started in the workforce, it was, you know, when you come to work, you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: need to be a professional, and you need to do things like this, and you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: need to wear your hair like this. I remember getting my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: braids done once, and then getting called for an interview.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And my mentor now my joy, I had just paid $200 to get my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: hair braided, and then they called me, like, a week later for an
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: interview. And my mentor was like, no. You have to now take that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: $200 hairstyle out and wear your hair a certain
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: way for the interview. And I just remember being devastated. Like, what in the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: world does my hairstyle have to do with
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: me being capable? I mean, I went to Berkeley for for goodness sake.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Like, really? This is what we're worried about? And
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the truth of the matter was it was very true. And so, you know,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: now we're getting into a place where people are no longer going to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: be comfortable just showing up and doing what you tell them to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: do. But if they know you know them, if they know you care,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: if they know you're concerned about the fact that they come to work
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to create a living for their family, not the other way around that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: they're working and then they have these lives on the side. If we can
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: create spaces like that, they're getting to know one another. Storytelling
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is a huge piece of new leaders or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people that wanna lead with authenticity. Find out people's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stories. And when you find those stories out, you'll understand what
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: motivates them. You'll understand what's beneath them. You'll you'll know their
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: even their favorite coffee order or their tea order. Like, make
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: time to get to know folks because the time you spend on the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: front end getting to know them, I promise you, mark my words,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you will get that back on the back end in the amount of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: productivity that they will have because they're gonna work for you. Just
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: like my babies in school when I would teach, my kids would do well
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: because miss Jones was asking them to, not because they love math.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Many of them couldn't stand math, but because they wanted to make me
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: proud, they would do these things, you know, and make sure that they did
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: well. Your people in your that you're leading are are
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: oftentimes the same way. They would do well not just because it's,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you know, the right thing to do, but because they they appreciate you as their
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leader, and they wanna make sure that, you know, you look good, they look
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: good, all the things. But you may have taken a couple days to get
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Jo them in the beginning. You talked about, yeah, your hair being in braids.
Joanne Lockwood: You've been to Berkeley and and so you you're you're a grown up. You're
Joanne Lockwood: a grown up, aren't you? So you've been around a bit, you know, off on
Joanne Lockwood: and off the plantation. You've been around a bit. So what we end up doing,
Joanne Lockwood: and this is not specific specifically around leadership, we end
Joanne Lockwood: up covering or masking or hiding part of our identity,
Joanne Lockwood: and which can be a problem because it becomes very
Joanne Lockwood: cumbersome in our in our cognitive load. You know, we we think
Joanne Lockwood: about psychological safety as a concept. The principal
Joanne Lockwood: foundation layer of that is inclusion safety, not having to
Joanne Lockwood: cover, mask, or hide who we are, so we
Joanne Lockwood: can let our authenticity out. Okay. Contextual,
Joanne Lockwood: we can't speak everything. We have to have a reasonable adjustment here to
Joanne Lockwood: to what's polite. But it's a it's a I mean, presumably,
Joanne Lockwood: you've you've faced this this need to pass
Joanne Lockwood: as well, probably in terms of not
Joanne Lockwood: being too much of a black woman. You know, the angry, shouty black
Joanne Lockwood: woman, the stereotype that you probably hear all the time. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And, of course, as soon as you raise your voice, you're playing into that trope
Joanne Lockwood: and stereotype and people and you'll say, oh, I've gotta minimize. I've
Joanne Lockwood: gotta not speak out. I've gotta hide myself. And
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's the mental I call them the mental gymnastics. That's the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: mental gymnastics at Invisible Work that many of our
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: minoritized people are doing on a daily basis that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: quite frankly, it leads to lack of effective
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: productivity. If I have to spend a a portion of my time
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: trying to figure out which side of me you wanna see and how
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to become that person even amidst microaggressions
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and people saying and doing things under their breath. Because believe me,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the same things that happened to folks in high school and middle school, we had
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that one person that was, you know, bothering you, but not but the teacher didn't
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: see, and so all they see is you blow up. The same kind of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: nonsense happens in the workplace, unfortunately. It
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: happens in schools. It happens in community meetings. Like, as my son would
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: say, people will people, and they're just gonna, you know, do their people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: thing. And so as leaders, if we can
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: model and bring to the table this idea that I want you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to come as your best self. And so whatever the conditions
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are in this space that we need to create to bring out your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: best self, let's do that. And you see
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: many companies nowadays that are considering that when Google
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and I'm not saying Google is the epitome of, you know,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: an ideal company when it comes to they're still on their journey, let's just
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: say. Right? But when Google first came out and they had, you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: know, childcare and ping pong tables and workout
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: gyms and all of these different amenities
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to make people feel comfortable in the space and be most productive.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: There were a lot of folks that were like, oh my goodness. They're just wasting
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: money and throwing it away and all of these different
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: speculations and opinions about that. Well, nowadays, folks are
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: realizing if I want folks that are gonna be creatively
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: minded and that creativity might come to them
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: at 11 o'clock at night, I want folks to feel like
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: they can do that and bring that creativity to the table. I don't
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: want all of these barriers and impediments to get in the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: way. And what many leaders have to realize is that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: oftentimes you are the biggest impediment to the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentic leadership you seek. Meaning that if you're not showing up
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: authentically, if you're playing the game, if you're playing the role, if you're
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: playing into the system, one of the worst things we can do as
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leaders is when we're explaining something to someone about a change
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: or something they need to do is use the crutch of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: policy or that's the way we've always done it as a way to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: convince people that this is the right thing or the the correct and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: appropriate path moving forward as opposed to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: instead say, okay. This is the problem that we have to face. How can
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: we best approach this together, and what do you need from me
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in order to create the the the optimal environmental
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: conditions to make this happen? That's a very different
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: approach than here's the project, here's the policy, here's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the expectation, you know, here's the deadline, Make
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that happen. Right? And and so we have to have this idea
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of authentic leadership being something that starts with
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: us, and it starts with us pulling off that cloak of vulnerability
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and being able to say to to a team, which I've said many times, hey,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: folks. This needs to happen because, you know, we've seen
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the data. We've seen the the metrics. This change needs to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: happen. Now how we go about doing this change and the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: time frame that we work this in, this is where I need your thoughts and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: your creativity because I don't want this change happening
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to now ripple effect into other issues. Will you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: all take this on and help me look at different possibilities, and then
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: we'll be figure out how we're gonna move forward together versus
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: here's the change that needs to happen. Here's what I expect you to do.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: One is a much more dictatorial inauthentic approach that doesn't take
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: into account the experiences of those closest to the work. The other one is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: much more vulnerable because I don't know what they're gonna come up with.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I am not in control. I'm literally handing
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: over control to those that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are, you know, closer to the work. Again, fostering
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that authentic approach to leadership by
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: modeling it as opposed to just talking about it. There's a word you used
Joanne Lockwood: earlier, which I Joanne feel the undercurrents of it in in our
Joanne Lockwood: conversation at the moment. It's it was microaggressions.
Joanne Lockwood: And this mask and covering, meeting societal expectations, and
Joanne Lockwood: having to be inauthentic for somebody else is also
Joanne Lockwood: part of a living up to the microaggressions that have been put on
Joanne Lockwood: you. So can you explain to people, maybe you've not heard that expression,
Joanne Lockwood: how you perceive what a microaggression is and how it manifests sometimes?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so in order to understand microaggressions, there's
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: 2 other terms that folks have to understand. 1
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is stereotypes, and the other is implicit bias.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: So here's how this this train goes. We
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have stereotypes about people who are different than ourselves.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: We also have stereotypes that are about those
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: who are like us. So me being, you know, just to say a few of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: my identities, I identify as a woman. I identify as
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Christian. I identify as being a descendant of the survivors of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the middle passage, which ethnically would be considered African
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: American. So these are just a few of my identities.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Right? And there are also stereotypes or beliefs that people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have, whether they be about women, about African American women, etcetera.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And stereotypes, many folks think that, you know, oh, if it's a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: positive stereotype, it's good. It's a it's a okay thing, and the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: negative stereotypes are the only bad things. Here's the deal.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Any kind of preconceived notion about who a person is that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: does not take into account that individual is not okay.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: It is considered wrong. It is bad. Is it unhealthy? Right?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: So stereotypes, no matter if they are the positive stereotypes,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: like, you know, Asians are good at math and black people are good at
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: athletics, again, those Joanne be very negative because if you happen to be
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of Asian descent and not good at math, then what does that make you? Right?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: If you happen to be of African descent and you're not as good at athletics,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: then what does that mean? And so stereotypes,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: all of which are not good, but everyone does this.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: So we all have to fight against these stereotypes that we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are taught and are are are exposed
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to at very early ages. The reason we have to fight against
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: them is because unchecked, your stereotypes lead to implicit
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: biases. And these are unconscious beliefs that we have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about people who that may or may not be
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: correct. But if you are if you do not check your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: implicit biases, which are unconscious again, it's that unconscious
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: thought that when brought conscious, sometimes you feel a little bit of shame around.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Like, oh, okay. I know black all black women, you know, are not angry,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: but I just saw this lady who was a little upset, and I went to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that angry black woman trope. Right? I gotta check my biases
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: on that because just because someone is of African descent and happens to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: a female and gets upset at the situation does not mean they're an angry black
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: woman. Just be and and so and you can go do that with any of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the stereotypes that literally lead to implicit biases.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: When we have unconscious or implicit biases that we have not
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: checked, we act on them. And where the and oftentimes, we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: act on them unconsciously. This when those actions
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: oftentimes are clouded in this idea of wanting to be
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: positive. So it becomes a compliment that is cloaked in
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the stereotype. So for example, I've actually had
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: people say to me at a meeting where I did not speak
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: or I spoke very measured, they would say, oh my gosh. You speak so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: well. You're so measured and calm in your demeanor. What
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: they're really saying in that microaggressive comment is, I have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stereotypes about Lockwood as being loud and angry and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and uncontrolled, and you did not fit that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stereotype for that box. Congratulations for not fitting my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: box. And not realizing that that microaggressive
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: comment is actually an insult cloaked in the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: fact that I don't fit your stereotypes and unconscious biases.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: They cut microaggressions can appear very, very
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: innocent. For example, saying to a woman who's blonde, oh my
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: gosh. You're so much smarter than I thought you would be.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: So, basically, when I walked in here, you thought I was a dumb blonde.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And because now I've opened my mouth and it's and helped you see that I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: don't fit that stereotype, you believe that that's a complimentary
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: action that I've made and have decided to go the extra step of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: making that compliment, which is actually microaggressive because it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: reminds me that when I walked in here, you didn't think I was an
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: intelligent woman, and now I had to prove myself once again.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And so microaggressions are one of the most dangerous types of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: actions that go unchecked, unnoticed, and quite
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: frankly uncalled out in the work in schools, in workplaces,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and all kinds of arena. It's a simple I had one that happened
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: today. My daughter was getting her braces off. And the woman
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: who appeared to identify as white and I could tell she was trying to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: connect. Right? So let me just give you that preface. I could
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: definitely tell she was working to connect, but in the course of connection
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: with my daughter who's 14 and me, every other word was
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: right, girlfriend? Oh, girlfriend. You're gonna be fine. And and so after a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: while, I'd say, well, she's yes. She is a girl, but she's not your friend.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I'm not understanding why you're using that term. Oh, well, I was
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: using it as a term of endearment. For whom? Right? And so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: until I brought it to her conscious level, she had to face the fact,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: well, you're black women, and I thought that that would be a way to connect
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: as opposed to saying, hey. As black women, what's the best way I can
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: connect with you? Because I don't wanna be insulting, but I tend to call people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: girlfriend. So I don't want you to be offended by that and think that it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: has something that's racially motivated behind it. Because when I saw her go to the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: other clients, she didn't call them out now. I'm one of them, girlfriend. So
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it what it it was actually a way that you believed.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Again, a way that she thought she was connecting, but because I'm conscious
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: enough to understand it, you it was definitely
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: microaggressive. Now did I wanna make a big scene? Absolutely
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: not. But these microaggressions are are different
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: things that remember I talked earlier about the mental gymnastics
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that oftentimes minoritized populations have to go through. So now I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have to sit there and process the fact that every third word is a microaggression.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: And, you know, so any mistake that she made is she made a little mistake
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: one time. I'm like, oh, okay. So is that what because you sitting up here,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you know, dealing with girlfriend as opposed to, what do you call her, trust fund
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: baby? Like, what what what are the the different terms that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: we have for people based on their identity. Right? And
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: so, again, often innocent, often not
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: intending to cause harm, but they are the result of implicit
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: biases that have gone unchecked, that are the result of stereotypes
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that you've learned over the years that have gone unchecked. So the solution
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is we have to check our biases, which means we have to check our
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stereotypes and really be conscious of the ideas
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that we have about people who especially those who are different, that we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: may act on unconsciously and can lead us to being part of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the problem versus part of the solution. Does that help, you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: think? Yeah. I yeah. I think that's a a pretty good summary of,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, my understanding of my questions as well. I was also thinking as
Joanne Lockwood: you're talking around leadership, as
Joanne Lockwood: leaders, we're also led. So we we we play both roles. We'll
Joanne Lockwood: we we lead and we we we are we are led. And not
Joanne Lockwood: every great leader is good at being led. Is is that's
Joanne Lockwood: also a skill to make yourself as easy to be led
Joanne Lockwood: as possible because sometimes we we put all the
Joanne Lockwood: responsibility for our management and our
Joanne Lockwood: and to be led on the other person, whereas I also think as,
Joanne Lockwood: having spent 60 odd nearly 60 years on this
Joanne Lockwood: planet, I recognize that part of that responsibility is also mine.
Joanne Lockwood: I Joanne be I can be easy to lead or difficult to lead.
Joanne Lockwood: And, and I want to make the the job of my leader
Joanne Lockwood: as simple as possible. And maybe that's me playing into
Joanne Lockwood: a bias. If I'm easy to deal with, I'll get more
Joanne Lockwood: favors. I'll get more influence, and I'll be Yep. I'll be have have have
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities. So as leaders, we wanna
Joanne Lockwood: we wanna encourage our people to be led well as well, don't we?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Absolutely. I often say, as a leader, you are the lead
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: follower. And if you can wrap your mind
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: around that, it go kind of goes back to what the example I gave of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: how we present problems or challenges to our team.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Am I presenting the challenge with me having thought am I am I upper
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: level team, if you will, having thought of all the solutions and then
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: bringing it to our down level folks to implement,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: then you, I mean, you might call that leadership, but it's actually
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: dictatorship. You're dictating to people what you wanna have done, and then you want
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: them to do it. Leadership is a bit different. Leadership
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: involves bringing out the best ideas from those closest to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the work and creating the pathway. The reason you're in front is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you're paving the way and making the environment
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: safe and palatable for folks to come and do the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: real work. The best example I Joanne give, and I just realized
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what this work with is is curling. So you think about the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: person that's pushing the the big disk thing. I don't know what these things are
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: called. So forgive my language, those of you who are laughing at me that are
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: curling experts. But there are some people with some brooms in the front,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and then they're pushing this big round donut looking thing Stone. With a
Joanne Lockwood: stick stone or something. Yeah. There you go. See, I knew I wasn't out
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of the word. So Yeah. So the bro the brooms are making room for the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stone and the person there's someone behind the stone that's pushing the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stone forward. So you would think that the person who is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: most important in this, not to say that there's, you know, levels of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: importance, but one would think and and focus on the person who's moving the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stone. I would argue the people that are leading and paving the way
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and make and are really critical to this process are the people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in front with the brooms. Right? Especially the one with that first
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: broom because you noticed that there are 2 brooms that are going this way. If
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that first broom doesn't clear out enough of the debris or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: whatever it is that they're clearing out on the ice to where that second
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: broom is doing more of the polishing and paving the way for the stone to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: come down, no matter which way you wanna work this, that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: stone is not going to be able to move. Right? That person with
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the first broom is the leader. So the leader technically that isn't
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: doing the biggest part of the work. I mean, isn't doing what most people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: notice as the most important job, which is moving the stone because that's the the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: goal is to get the stone across whatever threshold. I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: mean, don't I'm not gonna act like I understand the sport. I just watched it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and went, that's what leaders do. Right? But that first person with the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: broom has the most important job. They are the leader of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: this effort. They're gonna tell you what direction to go. They're gonna assess
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the ice in front and go, oh, maybe we need to go a little bit
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: more to the left or a little bit more to the right based on what
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I'm seeing. Like, they're going to clear that path as best as they
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: can. So then that person, that vice leader, if you will, that second leader
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's coming by, they're gonna follow the path of the first one because
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: they're not gonna clear a different path. They're gonna go right behind that first person,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and then the stone has to follow in that direction to be
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: most effective. That's exactly what leadership is. It's it's clearing
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the way for the real people that are closest to the work to do that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: work, and we have to be out in front, but
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: also know exactly what's necessary in order to do that. Yeah. And just
Joanne Lockwood: picking up on your current analogy there, if you actually watch what
Joanne Lockwood: happens, what happens is the, they have a
Joanne Lockwood: strategy meeting. They're Yes. They do. The the
Joanne Lockwood: groomers and the the thrower, they're
Joanne Lockwood: they're working out what their game strategy is. They they look at they look at
Joanne Lockwood: the problem. Right? We're gonna lose. What do we need to win? We need
Joanne Lockwood: to move that one out the way. Exactly. We set our 1
Joanne Lockwood: here and put a block in there. Well, this is a block shot. This is
Joanne Lockwood: an attack shot. So they're having this little strategy meeting. So the the entire
Joanne Lockwood: team is behind the mission. Yes. 1st who launches the
Joanne Lockwood: stone, knows how far they want how hard they
Joanne Lockwood: want to to to shove it or something to to deliver it. And then the
Joanne Lockwood: as you say, the the 2 brushes are trying to angle it to get the
Joanne Lockwood: trajectory onto that final drop spot on there. So that's the
Joanne Lockwood: it's it's not a one person thing, but as you say, there's a leader there
Joanne Lockwood: who's taking responsibility for the steering based on the trajectory,
Joanne Lockwood: based on the plan. And, yeah, it's a it's a complex mission, not
Joanne Lockwood: just throw it and hope. Throw it. Exactly. And
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: so when we talk about leadership, you know, I have to say you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have to be that person that is willing because let's say that the person
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in front, that that leader doesn't agree with where they or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the person who threw the stone throws it in the wrong direction. You're gonna have
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to change course immediately, and so that leader has to be the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: one to do that work. Again, not to beat up the curling analogy
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: too much, but when we talk about lee knowing how to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: follow, that is such an important part of leadership and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and being able to trust your team when they tell you this or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is or is it going to work. Oftentimes, as a coach and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: a consultant, I go into teams, and I'm usually coaching the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leadership. And one of the first things I ask them is, who is the expert
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: on what we're trying to solve? And they'll and often times, they'll
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: pause. I'm like, we need to get the expert on the call for whatever this
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: problem's got. You're the leader, but you may not be the expert. Right? If
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: we're trying to solve a problem that has to do with your human
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: resources team, well, then who is your human resources expert
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that can help us understand a little bit more about what's happening on the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: ground level to ensure that we have a very clear picture of what we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: need to move forward. And then part of a great part of, of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: a integral part of leadership is then going back to those frontline
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: workers and those frontline folks and having those conversations so that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the decisions you make, you know, are reflective
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of the needs of those closest to the work. And that so that would be
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the last thing I would wanna kinda bring about is that leadership
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is nothing but decision making. And the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: decisions we make around people, around
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: how do we move forward, around how we treat how we create
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the culture of how people are treated. Those decisions are some of the most
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: critical parts of leadership, and sometimes we have people that are leaving
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: those decisions on the table or by the wayside. But the decisions
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you make are very critical, and if you can make decisions in the best
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: interest of those that are following you, you'll always have people, right,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: willing and able, to follow your leadership. That takes us back to one
Joanne Lockwood: of the first words you said at the beginning, which was, courage.
Joanne Lockwood: So as leaders, you know, you said that as a
Joanne Lockwood: leader, decision making and inspiring, pointing
Joanne Lockwood: people in the right direction, using the using the brushes to get the stone in
Joanne Lockwood: the right place. It take it takes courage because not everyone's gonna
Joanne Lockwood: agree with you. No. How do how do aspiring leaders prepare
Joanne Lockwood: themselves for that? Well, again, I go this is where the academic
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in me goes to what is the definition of courage. And so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: courage literally mean being courageous, literally
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: means, Webster's definition, pushing past
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: fear. That's what courage is. And so in order to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: push past it, you gotta be able to identify it. And so that it it
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: case me back to what I was saying in the beginning, knowing yourself, knowing
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: who you are, knowing your triggers, and knowing your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: fears. Right? Yes. I do a lot of work
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: on diversity, equity, inclusion, leadership all across and
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: with a lot of different identities. Right? And there is this thought
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: process because you work in this space that has to do
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: around leadership and, cultivating spaces that
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are healthy and productive for diverse people that I know
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: everything there is to know about every diverse identity. Well, let me be very
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: clear. I am still on the journey to liberation myself, and there are
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: several identities I'm still learning about. For example, many of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: us, at least in the calif in California and me being new
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to the Michigan area, I had no idea
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about the Muslim holiday of Eid. No clue. No
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: clue it existed. I knew about ram I had heard the word Ramadan.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Let me not say I knew about it. I'd heard the word Ramadan. And even
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: as a school leader, I knew it was a religious event. I knew and I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: was more concerned with what people need. And to be honest, I really didn't
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: learn too much about the event because I'm like, okay. Tell me what you need.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: What is it? How is it that I can best serve and help? Well, being
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: on this side of it and not having to lead the organization, I had time
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to really learn about the the celebration
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and what it meant. And my kids actually go to a school that is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: predominantly Muslim. So they had, you know, last Wednesday off. They
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: have different holidays that, the traditional Christian
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: calendar, which at first, I'll I'll admit I was like,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: oh my goodness. Like, a random Wednesday that they're off. Like, what's going on here?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Well, when I started to delve a little bit deeper, I'm like, oh my gosh.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: This is amazing. This is wonderful. Again, I wasn't
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: aware of what I didn't know. I didn't know my own the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: gaps in my own thinking, my own experiences. But because I'm a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: person who's open to learn, I was able to find, you know, this
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: whole other appreciation for culture I did I didn't recognize,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: but I also knew I had a lot to learn. Right? That's one example
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of what you know, being a leader really is about knowing yourself
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and knowing, you know, the areas that you may not be as familiar with
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: and doing the work of learning those. I've also, as a leader, I've been
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: very transparent about the growth that I have in the area of our
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: LGBTQIA populations. I'm still learning. Right? I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: identify as a heterosexual woman. That means I don't understand all
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of the different letters and what they mean and how people's experiences
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: could be shifted based on where they sit and how they experience the
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: world. That's an area of growth. I'm very conscious and open
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about it. If folks wanna help me learn, I am on the journey to learn.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: That's not anybody else's responsibility, though. And so,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: to teach me, it's my responsibility to learn. So if we
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are truly going to be those folks that wanna
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: create that the world that we wanna see, we have to take
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: responsibility for our own learning and our own triggers and recognize you're
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: gonna make mistakes. It's not it's not if. It's when you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: screw it up, quite frankly. And how can you apologize ahead of time and go,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you know what? I used the wrong term. I used the wrong
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: pronoun. My apologies for that. I am on the journey. I'm really dedicated to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: growth and learning. How we, you know, create those
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: environments where we speak our truth and are able to
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: walk in that. That's where the true leadership, I think, is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: going to sit for the future. And the more that we can get people
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: courageous enough to not just admit what you know, but also admit what
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you don't know and push past the fear of, oh, I'm gonna be judged or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: they're not gonna see me as a leader or whatever fears that you, whatever story
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: you've written in your head that you're the victim of, because that tends to be
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what we do. We we are so all of us can be the victim of
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: our own story. Whatever that story is, push past it.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Lead from a place of courageousness and find your authenticity
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: there. Find who you really are in that place of courageousness, and I
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: promise you, you'll always have people ready and willing to follow your
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leadership. Geri, thank you. Absolutely fantastic. What a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation. Thank you so much. How do people get ahold of you? Well,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I am definitely on LinkedIn, so please follow my LinkedIn.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I'm also on Facebook at doctor Shelly Jones
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Holt. You can find my company, Leadership Legacy Consulting,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: online at www.leadershiplegacyconsulting.com.
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I wanna help you build a legacy of your leadership that you
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Joanne be proud of. What will people say about you when you leave?
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: What will they say about you when you have the impact you've
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: created on the space? Will people have to survive your leadership, or
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: will they thrive because of your leadership? And so we talk
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: about courageous leadership development, coaching, and support. That is
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: what we do. And we are firm believers that leadership,
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: it happens where you live, where you learn, and where you earn. And so
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: because of that, the fact that leadership, authentic, courageous
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: leadership begins at home, we also have our nonprofit, which
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: is Family Legacy 5. You can reach us online
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: at familylegacy5.com or on our
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Facebook page, family legis our Facebook group. I'm sorry. Family
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Legacy 5. And this is where we focus on courageous
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: family leadership that leads to our children being
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the people that we know and that they can be. And so give me a
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: call. I'd be happy to help you. If not, you know, for
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: services, but just to have a chat and to get to know one another. I'm
Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: open to that as well, and it's been great getting to know you, Jo. Thanks,
Joanne Lockwood: Shelley. As we bring this conversation to a
Joanne Lockwood: close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to
Joanne Lockwood: you, our listener, for lending your ear and
Joanne Lockwood: heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's
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