WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:10.805 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:10.805 --> 00:00:14.644 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:14.644 --> 00:00:18.180 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the 4 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:21.640 heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:21.860 --> 00:00:25.620 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:29.035 a world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:29.035 --> 00:00:32.795 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:32.795 --> 00:00:36.210 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:36.590 --> 00:00:39.970 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.350 --> 00:00:43.855 Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.075 --> 00:00:47.855 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, 12 00:00:48.235 --> 00:00:51.870 and inspire action together. Don't forget 13 00:00:52.410 --> 00:00:55.364 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.364 --> 00:00:57.135 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.195 --> 00:01:02.734 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.515 --> 00:01:07.310 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.310 --> 00:01:10.850 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.829 --> 00:01:17.325 And today, it's episode 121 19 00:01:18.665 --> 00:01:22.265 with the title, Embracing Neurodiversity and 20 00:01:22.265 --> 00:01:25.900 Queer Identity. And I have the absolute honor and 21 00:01:25.900 --> 00:01:29.440 privilege to welcome Helen Davis. Helen supports 22 00:01:29.580 --> 00:01:33.340 neurodivergent in adults and the organizations they 23 00:01:33.340 --> 00:01:37.104 are in. When I asked Helen to describe her superpower, she said, 24 00:01:37.484 --> 00:01:40.865 she has both a superpower and some Kryptonite. 25 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:45.480 And she thinks that having ADHD has helped her live more 26 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:49.180 than one life. Hello, Helen. Welcome to the show. 27 00:01:49.905 --> 00:01:53.745 Hi, Jo. Really fantastic to be here. Thank you. Yeah. 28 00:01:53.745 --> 00:01:56.785 Brilliant. We've had a bit of trouble in the green room. We've been all over 29 00:01:56.785 --> 00:02:00.299 the place. We're into Zencast and out of Zencast and back into Zoom. 30 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:04.220 So these never go smoothly. But welcome them. I'm glad we finally 31 00:02:05.565 --> 00:02:09.324 can see and hear each other, which is amazing. So, 32 00:02:09.324 --> 00:02:12.765 Helen, embracing neurodiversity and queer 33 00:02:12.765 --> 00:02:16.590 identities, Tell me a bit more about what you do and how we 34 00:02:16.590 --> 00:02:19.890 can do that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, in terms of that specific 35 00:02:19.950 --> 00:02:23.685 point, I've noticed that there's a very, very high prevalence 36 00:02:23.825 --> 00:02:27.584 of neurodiversity within our queer communities. I'm not 37 00:02:27.584 --> 00:02:30.980 saying you have to be queer to be neurodiverse, but there tends to be a 38 00:02:30.980 --> 00:02:34.819 lot of people in neurodiverse who are queer. And so I 39 00:02:34.819 --> 00:02:38.655 think that that that therefore, as well as all the colors of a 40 00:02:38.655 --> 00:02:42.335 rainbow and the various identities that we have, that is 41 00:02:42.335 --> 00:02:46.115 very much part of the intersection that we also have and share. 42 00:02:47.099 --> 00:02:50.940 And practical wisdom supports neurodivergent adults, as you 43 00:02:50.940 --> 00:02:54.560 said, and in in all their glorious diversity, 44 00:02:55.355 --> 00:02:58.715 including about sex and gender as well and 45 00:02:58.715 --> 00:03:02.555 sexual orientation. So I myself are gender 46 00:03:02.555 --> 00:03:06.190 fluid, and I think it's really important for our queer 47 00:03:06.190 --> 00:03:10.030 community to know that there are safe spaces to go where they 48 00:03:10.030 --> 00:03:13.864 can, you know, disclose about their neurodiversity and actually 49 00:03:13.925 --> 00:03:17.765 get some help if that's what they need. You mentioned, yeah, 50 00:03:17.765 --> 00:03:21.224 the the intersection of neurodiversity, ADHD, 51 00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:26.560 ASD, and Yeah. Queerness is is quite 52 00:03:26.780 --> 00:03:30.459 prevalent, you might say. Yeah. But I and I don't wanna dive too much 53 00:03:30.459 --> 00:03:34.295 into talk about the CAS report because that's Oh. That's been said a lot. 54 00:03:34.295 --> 00:03:37.435 But that that seems to conflate the issue as being, 55 00:03:38.135 --> 00:03:41.810 if you have neurodiversity, then you're not genuinely 56 00:03:42.190 --> 00:03:45.410 gender dysphoric or or trans. But you're saying 57 00:03:46.030 --> 00:03:49.805 there's a there's you could be both, and it's not a problem. You 58 00:03:49.805 --> 00:03:53.564 can easily be both. And I you know? And I'm 59 00:03:53.564 --> 00:03:57.165 part of the trans community, so I can very much consider both. 60 00:03:57.165 --> 00:04:00.970 And one didn't cause the other. I happen to be 61 00:04:00.970 --> 00:04:04.430 both. Yeah. I have. Yeah. There's 62 00:04:04.890 --> 00:04:08.635 a rabbit hole, isn't it? That whole cast report. I I think my 63 00:04:08.635 --> 00:04:12.315 concern is having had been lived in under 64 00:04:12.315 --> 00:04:16.050 section 28 when I first came out, And I remember the 65 00:04:16.050 --> 00:04:19.730 repression. I remember you didn't know if you say, if you were queer, 66 00:04:19.730 --> 00:04:23.085 that you, you know, if you get lose your job, you, you weren't 67 00:04:23.145 --> 00:04:26.985 certainly wouldn't mention it at school. You'd, you know, you'd get your head kicked 68 00:04:26.985 --> 00:04:30.445 in at certain places. You know, you have Jo really watch yourself. 69 00:04:31.210 --> 00:04:34.970 And I had thought we'd moved on decades, but it 70 00:04:34.970 --> 00:04:38.730 feels like literally that's reversing. And I guess I am very 71 00:04:38.730 --> 00:04:42.455 concerned for our trans young people who are 72 00:04:42.455 --> 00:04:46.235 having this level, I think, of institutional prejudice 73 00:04:46.375 --> 00:04:49.035 and transphobia, quite frankly. Yeah. 74 00:04:50.259 --> 00:04:53.940 But one one thing I'm you work in the NHS 75 00:04:53.940 --> 00:04:57.705 or with the NHS or around the NHS. Yeah. We know that services 76 00:04:57.705 --> 00:05:00.845 are underfunded. They're stretched. Is it just 77 00:05:01.385 --> 00:05:05.005 that trans people have have crept up stealthily and quickly, 78 00:05:05.590 --> 00:05:09.030 and and they're not geared up to support in the gender 79 00:05:09.030 --> 00:05:12.685 services. Well, yeah. I mean, I guess, I also 80 00:05:12.685 --> 00:05:16.044 should add, as a caveat, I'm speaking as part, a person in the 81 00:05:16.044 --> 00:05:19.800 community rather than in my role. Of course. Yeah. That's an 82 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:23.560 important distinction to make Joanne carry out these days. But I I 83 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.345 mean, I I there's certainly a lot of, yeah, cuts 84 00:05:27.345 --> 00:05:31.104 these days and refocusing on what we're doing, trying to catch up 85 00:05:31.104 --> 00:05:34.625 post COVID and all that kind of stuff. I think there's some 86 00:05:34.625 --> 00:05:38.410 fundamental philosophy, philosophical differences. So if you're 87 00:05:38.410 --> 00:05:42.250 in a community and you want to, you know, you feel it's your right 88 00:05:42.250 --> 00:05:45.815 and your choice to change, you know, to towards the 89 00:05:45.815 --> 00:05:48.875 body that you actually feel is actually your true self. 90 00:05:49.495 --> 00:05:53.095 That's a choice and and a wish. And I think the trouble is is 91 00:05:53.095 --> 00:05:56.699 the a lot of the model in some in the gender services, 92 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.520 there are more model, which is about you have to prove that you're trans enough, 93 00:06:00.520 --> 00:06:03.719 that you want it enough, and you have to live a certain way for a 94 00:06:03.719 --> 00:06:07.555 certain amount of time, which isn't about choice. That's about proving 95 00:06:07.935 --> 00:06:11.765 you tick enough boxes to warrant that proceed 96 00:06:12.015 --> 00:06:14.900 those procedures. And so that's like a fundamental 97 00:06:15.760 --> 00:06:19.120 philosophical difference of looking at us 98 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.845 it and yeah, unfortunately given 99 00:06:22.845 --> 00:06:26.365 the current CAS report and the other changes, it doesn't look like it will 100 00:06:26.365 --> 00:06:30.180 change towards what we would prefer, which would be 101 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:33.940 us to have agency over our own bodies. Yeah. I mean, we had the same 102 00:06:33.940 --> 00:06:37.620 with the Gender Recognition Act review, the Scottish one 103 00:06:37.620 --> 00:06:41.345 blocked by 35, the the one that Theresa May tried to 104 00:06:41.345 --> 00:06:44.785 get going in 2018. It's kind of just at the point, yeah, 105 00:06:44.785 --> 00:06:48.509 I, and maybe many others felt that the time 106 00:06:48.509 --> 00:06:52.210 was coming, the time was right, I thought, wow, it's looking 107 00:06:52.270 --> 00:06:55.870 optimistic. And then suddenly, the last 12 to 18 108 00:06:55.870 --> 00:06:59.475 months. Yeah. And I th I think that's the 109 00:06:59.475 --> 00:07:03.075 hardest thing psychologically is we it felt like we were getting 110 00:07:03.075 --> 00:07:06.755 somewhere, you know, genuinely did. And then you're 111 00:07:06.755 --> 00:07:10.560 like, suddenly like the whole rug's been like whipped away. 112 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.160 And then some, and, and I know that people are very concerned about 113 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.845 that Equally, there's a lot of people in the healthcare profession 114 00:07:17.985 --> 00:07:21.664 who are very much, you know, all 115 00:07:21.664 --> 00:07:24.950 for inclusion, you know, on all levels, including 116 00:07:25.250 --> 00:07:29.090 about transgender services, who are wanting to make a difference, who are 117 00:07:29.090 --> 00:07:32.550 looking at inequalities. So health inequalities is also 118 00:07:32.914 --> 00:07:36.754 really actively being looked at, and, actually, I'm a clinical director for 119 00:07:36.754 --> 00:07:40.514 transgender health care. There's not a lot of well, I don't know if there's anyone 120 00:07:40.514 --> 00:07:44.070 else who is. And, you know, that's because, you know, we, 121 00:07:44.070 --> 00:07:47.670 we very much care about health inequalities, where I work as 122 00:07:47.670 --> 00:07:51.354 well. So I think there's there's much to do. It 123 00:07:51.354 --> 00:07:55.194 feels like it's an uphill bath. So and but 124 00:07:55.194 --> 00:07:59.000 there is there are places doing awareness training, 125 00:07:59.300 --> 00:08:02.740 trying to support people, putting in locally commissioned 126 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:06.195 services for GPs, for annual health checks, doing 127 00:08:06.195 --> 00:08:09.955 different, like better initiatives to try and 128 00:08:09.955 --> 00:08:13.510 reassure the community that there are places where they can go 129 00:08:13.670 --> 00:08:17.350 and actually feel like they can get the care that they deserve. Because 130 00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:20.710 equally, I wouldn't personally want to go to any health 131 00:08:20.710 --> 00:08:24.465 practitioner who has a problem. You know, I don't it's mutual. 132 00:08:24.925 --> 00:08:27.805 No. I don't wanna see them. They don't wanna see me. And and, you know, 133 00:08:27.805 --> 00:08:31.405 officially you would, you know, no one would say that that there are there are 134 00:08:31.405 --> 00:08:34.839 these practitioners who are transphobic, but I think we can 135 00:08:34.839 --> 00:08:38.519 see that, you know, just as if we wish there wasn't other 136 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:42.345 prejudicisms, there are going to be people in such a large 137 00:08:42.345 --> 00:08:46.025 workforce where that, where that's going to be the case. But a lot of, 138 00:08:46.025 --> 00:08:48.765 lots of work is to done to try and, 139 00:08:49.680 --> 00:08:53.520 you know, say that's not acceptable. And I'm part of a 140 00:08:53.520 --> 00:08:57.220 group of people who are 100% committed to make a difference 141 00:08:57.645 --> 00:09:01.325 to our trans community, as well as all the other people who 142 00:09:01.325 --> 00:09:05.085 need inclusion and deserve inclusion. So that's in terms 143 00:09:05.085 --> 00:09:08.720 of my health care side of things. I'm a I'm a great believer 144 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.860 that inherently people are good, 145 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:16.055 and inherently people feel they're doing the right thing. And that 146 00:09:16.055 --> 00:09:19.655 just because their view is different, have a 147 00:09:19.655 --> 00:09:23.495 different perspective, different lived experience, doesn't mean to say that they're a bad 148 00:09:23.495 --> 00:09:27.220 person. I think sometimes we what we do is we jump to this polarized 149 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:31.040 debate Mhmm. Of you're over there and I'm over here. If you don't 150 00:09:31.040 --> 00:09:33.985 agree with me, I I I won't accept you. And if you don't agree with 151 00:09:33.985 --> 00:09:37.745 me, I won't accept you either. We end up being so far apart, we can't 152 00:09:37.745 --> 00:09:41.360 actually have conversations, I think. That's what we're seeing in society at the 153 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.660 moment. It's this real polarization of perspectives. 154 00:09:45.680 --> 00:09:49.195 And without whilst forgetting that everyone all people 155 00:09:49.575 --> 00:09:53.335 really want is for everyone to have a good life. And Yeah. 156 00:09:53.495 --> 00:09:56.950 I guess people are are worried, scared, confused, don't 157 00:09:56.950 --> 00:10:00.730 understand, whatever it may be. Yeah. And, you know, 158 00:10:00.950 --> 00:10:04.490 all those things that you've also discussed, obviously, you know, 159 00:10:04.904 --> 00:10:08.665 They it's been, issues like, you know, like I said, going 160 00:10:08.665 --> 00:10:11.964 back to section 28 to the homophobia, to the aids 161 00:10:12.310 --> 00:10:15.750 pandemic that happened, you know, I remember those times vividly. I 162 00:10:15.750 --> 00:10:19.530 remember nursing the, you know, some, so this 163 00:10:20.085 --> 00:10:23.445 really lovely patient who was sadly an AIDS 164 00:10:23.445 --> 00:10:27.285 victim and he got a lot of homophobic. And I 165 00:10:27.285 --> 00:10:30.970 was there because back in the day, the basically the night staff 166 00:10:30.970 --> 00:10:34.750 weren't paying enough attention. So his partner paid for a private, 167 00:10:34.810 --> 00:10:38.425 you know, nurse to go and support his partner overnight. And that 168 00:10:38.425 --> 00:10:42.185 there were completely misunderstandings. And back then, people worried 169 00:10:42.185 --> 00:10:45.945 that they're gonna die from catching this. And now you're back in the 170 00:10:45.945 --> 00:10:49.510 day, it was like seen as the gay disease initially and stuff like that. 171 00:10:49.510 --> 00:10:53.190 So, you know, sadly, these difficult times have been here at different 172 00:10:53.190 --> 00:10:56.570 points. But when we look at neurodiversity as well, people, 173 00:10:57.654 --> 00:11:01.334 you know, it's another area of where people can feel 174 00:11:01.334 --> 00:11:05.070 excluded, where people can feel different. And that's the 175 00:11:05.070 --> 00:11:08.670 crossover, isn't it? You know, sometimes you can feel like you don't fit in or 176 00:11:08.670 --> 00:11:12.350 you're not accepted for and that there's some prejudice against 177 00:11:12.350 --> 00:11:16.035 you. And I I when I think back to my 178 00:11:16.035 --> 00:11:19.495 twenties, I can tell you now, there's no one year would've disclosed I'm dyslexic. 179 00:11:19.875 --> 00:11:22.870 I'd have thought I wouldn't get a Jo, bit like I wouldn't have disclosed I 180 00:11:22.870 --> 00:11:26.170 was, like, queer. It's like, no. You're alright. I want I needed work. 181 00:11:26.638 --> 00:11:30.225 Jo. So there were a couple of things you just didn't disclose, you know, 182 00:11:30.305 --> 00:11:33.824 or if you did, you didn't like discreetly. And 183 00:11:33.824 --> 00:11:37.660 interestingly, I came out as being queer, you know, over the 184 00:11:37.819 --> 00:11:41.199 decades a lot quicker than I came out as being neurodivergent, 185 00:11:41.660 --> 00:11:45.120 because it genuinely felt career limiting for a very long time. 186 00:11:45.485 --> 00:11:48.445 My you know, there's and even now, you know, you speak to people, they are 187 00:11:48.445 --> 00:11:52.285 fearful. Some people have bad experiences when they come out of 188 00:11:52.285 --> 00:11:56.090 being judged and some seem to find themselves suddenly being performance 189 00:11:56.090 --> 00:11:58.830 managed out of jobs. There's a lot of misunderstanding 190 00:11:59.850 --> 00:12:03.290 about neurodiversity and actually the benefits it can bring as 191 00:12:03.290 --> 00:12:06.935 well. You know? And so that's why, you know, 192 00:12:06.935 --> 00:12:10.535 I've, I've really been avidly trying to address 193 00:12:10.535 --> 00:12:14.170 in, you know, inequality all my life, obviously, in in 194 00:12:14.170 --> 00:12:17.790 health care. But I also I felt it was really important 195 00:12:18.010 --> 00:12:21.725 to deal with the inequality about being neurodivergent. When 196 00:12:21.725 --> 00:12:25.565 I worked at City University as a lecturer there, I made 197 00:12:25.565 --> 00:12:29.240 a point of saying I was a dyslexic tutor. Because 198 00:12:29.459 --> 00:12:33.300 at that point, you know, it was you you knew that people might 199 00:12:33.300 --> 00:12:36.765 frown upon you if you said you're a teacher in dyslexic, you 200 00:12:36.765 --> 00:12:40.605 know? And, and so there are I feel I mean, I look at 201 00:12:40.605 --> 00:12:44.285 the journey I've been both in the newer divergent world and the queer world, there 202 00:12:44.285 --> 00:12:48.100 are so many synergies. There really are. And, yeah, Jo. And 203 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:51.800 so that's what practical wisdom is particularly supporting people who are neurodivergent, 204 00:12:52.100 --> 00:12:55.825 but or importantly, I also think the organizations, like you 205 00:12:55.825 --> 00:12:59.585 say, I agree with you. I don't think in people inherently bad, 206 00:12:59.585 --> 00:13:02.780 they might be misinformed that I want to help raise awareness. 207 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.080 I want to help, you know, help change people's perspective for 208 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:10.635 for the better for inclusion around, but particularly about 209 00:13:10.635 --> 00:13:14.395 the, ND world. You mentioned at the beginning, you you you 210 00:13:14.395 --> 00:13:17.455 would call yourself queer, genderqueer, 211 00:13:18.290 --> 00:13:21.590 gender fluid. Yeah. People have people have heard the term 212 00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:25.650 trans woman. They've they've come into use to the term trans man. 213 00:13:25.650 --> 00:13:29.355 They didn't believe trans man existed until recently. You 214 00:13:29.355 --> 00:13:33.115 know? Yeah. I know. Well Trans women are obviously spot us a mile 215 00:13:33.115 --> 00:13:36.770 off and then don't like us. So yeah. And we've heard about term non 216 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:39.990 binary recently that, again, people are kind of not sure about. 217 00:13:40.450 --> 00:13:44.050 So how would you describe your gender fluidity? What does that mean to 218 00:13:44.050 --> 00:13:47.764 you? Yeah. Well, it's interesting because initially, I I was 219 00:13:47.764 --> 00:13:51.524 like, oh, I like non binary. I'm not sure I have a particular, you 220 00:13:51.524 --> 00:13:55.310 know, gender I could read there. And then I found I was like, actually, 221 00:13:55.328 --> 00:13:59.170 Jo. Probably gender fluid is actually a better description. 222 00:13:59.630 --> 00:14:03.230 The thing is is that I'm I'm 54. I'm not gonna say I'm old, but 223 00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:06.985 I'm older. And back in the day, you didn't have all these different terms. You 224 00:14:06.985 --> 00:14:10.505 didn't have all these different labels. And I, you know, I just kind of didn't 225 00:14:10.505 --> 00:14:14.230 think about it until many decades later. And then I was 226 00:14:14.230 --> 00:14:17.830 like, oh, yeah. You know? And Brighton's got a very fantastic Brighton and 227 00:14:17.830 --> 00:14:21.430 Hoe Joanne Pride. And it I'm it made me really 228 00:14:21.430 --> 00:14:24.605 think about it when I got involved with that a little bit more. And I 229 00:14:24.605 --> 00:14:28.205 was like, oh, yeah, actually. But interesting, I also 230 00:14:28.205 --> 00:14:31.920 felt really shy. I did not want to come out 231 00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:35.760 again. I felt doing it once was fun enough. And I 232 00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:39.520 did know that whether it was nonbinary or gender fluid, 233 00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:43.335 that that, like, gender nonconforming was definitely me. I'd 234 00:14:43.335 --> 00:14:47.095 never felt that I was all one or the other. I just just 235 00:14:47.095 --> 00:14:50.190 didn't. And we you know, back in the day, we used to be called tomboys. 236 00:14:50.810 --> 00:14:54.350 And and, actually, in some ways for for me personally, that reflected 237 00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:57.915 the the the richness of having both genders 238 00:14:57.915 --> 00:15:01.455 really that I identified with. And that, and that is how I do 239 00:15:01.595 --> 00:15:05.275 feel now. Interestingly, she go on websites and if 240 00:15:05.275 --> 00:15:09.020 you, you even go to different women's events, you know, like, 241 00:15:09.020 --> 00:15:12.860 am I allowed anymore? You know, it does that happen? I 242 00:15:12.860 --> 00:15:16.685 actually found I never used to worry about that. And I've been involved with 243 00:15:16.685 --> 00:15:20.444 women's rights and issues for like decades. And then now I find 244 00:15:20.444 --> 00:15:24.204 myself nervous. And if, unless I see that trans women 245 00:15:24.204 --> 00:15:27.910 are welcome and so are people who still self identify, 246 00:15:28.050 --> 00:15:31.810 you know, who are gender nonconforming, then I don't go, you 247 00:15:31.810 --> 00:15:35.415 know, I'm like, and I know that there's a subdivide 248 00:15:35.555 --> 00:15:39.315 in our own communities about things as well. And I've just 249 00:15:39.315 --> 00:15:42.959 found it's more complicated being gender fluid. Like, 250 00:15:42.959 --> 00:15:46.019 people don't know what to do with you. They just don't. 251 00:15:47.285 --> 00:15:49.385 Let alone which toilet you use to bake. 252 00:15:51.445 --> 00:15:54.165 Oh, use that one at 10 o'clock in the morning. Use that one at 3 253 00:15:54.165 --> 00:15:57.820 o'clock in the afternoon. It's obvious that or or whatever. Which 254 00:15:57.820 --> 00:16:00.960 which one's free? I mean, just just pick a door. 255 00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:05.415 Yeah. So I I remember dealing talking to a a 256 00:16:05.415 --> 00:16:07.195 young person, when you say young, 257 00:16:09.015 --> 00:16:12.075 early careers or in their twenties a couple of years ago, 258 00:16:12.615 --> 00:16:16.320 and they identified as, non 259 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.779 binary. Mhmm. They were pretty pretty supportive 260 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:23.440 of the Women in Tech Forum in their organization and 261 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.025 across the world. And and they've then got this 262 00:16:27.025 --> 00:16:30.485 message from the organizers or the people who ran it, 263 00:16:30.705 --> 00:16:34.340 say, we understand, yeah, you you you're now you're a 264 00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:37.860 non binary. Unfortunately, that means you're no longer allowed to 265 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:41.495 represent and speak on our stages because this is for women. Yeah. And 266 00:16:41.495 --> 00:16:44.875 she she we had a good chat about this. And I and I said, well, 267 00:16:45.255 --> 00:16:49.080 it it it really is a a struggle. If you're assigned female at birth, you 268 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.840 still have an allegiance to, from a historic point of 269 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.540 view, to sensitivities of women. You understand 270 00:16:56.680 --> 00:17:00.144 some of the the growing up issues that that women have. 271 00:17:00.685 --> 00:17:04.525 If you're assigned male at birth, you it's 272 00:17:04.525 --> 00:17:08.200 really awkward. So if you're not if you're not careful, the 273 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.640 women's network could welcome assigned male at birth people who are 274 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.135 nonbinary. If you said women and non 275 00:17:15.135 --> 00:17:18.815 binary and gender fluid people are welcome within our 276 00:17:18.815 --> 00:17:22.640 network, then people get really freaked out, but you're not a woman enough. Yeah. 277 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.126 If I let if I let you in, someone who identifies as 278 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.195 so I'm feeling a a fine man at birth could come in in stealth or 279 00:17:30.195 --> 00:17:33.955 something and then take out space and take us out. So it's really complicated, 280 00:17:33.955 --> 00:17:37.420 all this tentative body stuff, isn't it? Very complicated. It's yeah. 281 00:17:37.660 --> 00:17:41.500 Yeah. And it's difficult. I mean, but it's not just that, even if 282 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:44.800 you think, for example, so I'm dating somebody 283 00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:48.935 who is a woman. So, so if I'm gender 284 00:17:48.935 --> 00:17:52.315 fluid, does that make me straight when I'm feeling masculine 285 00:17:53.415 --> 00:17:57.050 and lesbian when I'm not Do you know what I mean? It's 286 00:17:57.050 --> 00:18:00.570 like, do I change between that throughout the day? Other 287 00:18:00.570 --> 00:18:04.284 amusing things like we have father's days and mother's days And, like, 288 00:18:04.284 --> 00:18:08.125 my my my child was saying to me, but you're both, aren't you? I 289 00:18:08.284 --> 00:18:11.520 yeah. And they were like, oh, should I get you a father's day card? They 290 00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:13.940 were like, why not? I said, because I do the work at both. 291 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:20.335 You're a single parent. You certainly do. So it it's just 292 00:18:20.335 --> 00:18:23.955 interesting because but things are so binary that you just 293 00:18:24.255 --> 00:18:27.740 you regularly do not fit in in 294 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:31.500 in in in so many boxes. But there there are 295 00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:34.640 people, as we know, out who are trying to enforce the frigidity 296 00:18:35.424 --> 00:18:39.105 of this binary. And I I I I understand it. Yeah. As a woman 297 00:18:39.105 --> 00:18:42.784 myself, I understand how women have had to 298 00:18:42.784 --> 00:18:46.610 overcome oppression, marginalization, discrimination, less 299 00:18:46.610 --> 00:18:50.130 opportunities. So there's a real desire to make sure that we don't 300 00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:53.695 lose what it is to be a woman Yeah. In all of 301 00:18:53.695 --> 00:18:57.395 this Jo that we we lose the the momentum 302 00:18:57.855 --> 00:19:01.650 of equality and equity that we still lack in society. So 303 00:19:01.650 --> 00:19:05.490 it's it's about that. That's that's the real struggle. Yeah. 304 00:19:05.490 --> 00:19:08.930 And and I and I know because I I you know, I I have 305 00:19:08.930 --> 00:19:12.715 heard people with their different perspectives as 306 00:19:12.715 --> 00:19:16.395 to, you know, what they think about that and how hard 307 00:19:16.395 --> 00:19:20.040 fought it was to gain any grounds on women's rights. You 308 00:19:20.040 --> 00:19:23.660 know? And and I I know that that's felt felt very 309 00:19:23.800 --> 00:19:27.495 strongly in certain sectors. And I think that that's very 310 00:19:27.495 --> 00:19:31.195 difficult because I don't want to diminish the struggles that people had, 311 00:19:32.055 --> 00:19:35.740 but equally I will, or, you know, trans women are women. 312 00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:39.580 That's, that's my point of view. I'm not changing that. It's 313 00:19:39.580 --> 00:19:43.260 like you said, we we're going to have opposing views with some people and it's, 314 00:19:43.260 --> 00:19:47.005 I guess, it's how we deal with those opposing views. Yeah. And the 315 00:19:47.005 --> 00:19:50.785 government don't help. But but you don't need to comment on that, obviously. But yeah. 316 00:19:51.005 --> 00:19:54.610 It's, Yep. It is. It's just a struggle at the moment. It's, 317 00:19:54.930 --> 00:19:58.610 over opening the paper, you know, scrolling through news reports on your 318 00:19:58.610 --> 00:20:02.174 phone. It it's everywhere. Jo, yeah. Can we talk a bit about 319 00:20:02.174 --> 00:20:05.955 your your neurodivergence? How it how you 320 00:20:06.815 --> 00:20:10.350 how did how did you I mean, you obviously realized at some point in your 321 00:20:10.350 --> 00:20:14.110 life, you were queer, genderfluid, trans, however you wanna describe yourself, 322 00:20:14.110 --> 00:20:17.810 at some point in your life. When did you first kinda figure out that 323 00:20:18.165 --> 00:20:22.005 neurodiversity was a thing as well? Was that kind of early on? Well, 324 00:20:22.005 --> 00:20:25.365 yeah. So even in primary school, I knew I found things 325 00:20:25.365 --> 00:20:28.940 tricky. And I think my dad even had a chat with a 326 00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:32.620 teacher and said, you know, I think I think my daughter is, you 327 00:20:32.620 --> 00:20:36.315 know, dyslexic. And they went, yeah, probably. And they were like, but we 328 00:20:36.315 --> 00:20:39.935 don't like to pigeonhole kids. So therefore they didn't. 329 00:20:40.475 --> 00:20:44.250 So we did there was no assessment. I got extra lessons, which they 330 00:20:44.250 --> 00:20:47.530 called remedial lessons, lovely title. And, 331 00:20:47.850 --> 00:20:51.375 so I was that, you know, special education needs kid 332 00:20:51.455 --> 00:20:55.295 at primary school. And I went to secondary school. And 333 00:20:55.295 --> 00:20:58.755 when we they moved, they were like, oh, let's not put her in 334 00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:03.010 grammar school. She won't do very well when she'll struggle. So then they 335 00:21:03.010 --> 00:21:06.585 put me in the comprehensive, which found by me, by the way. But, 336 00:21:06.585 --> 00:21:10.025 and so I went there and I remember being in the bottom set for 337 00:21:10.025 --> 00:21:13.625 everything, but getting the classes really quickly and then sitting there 338 00:21:13.625 --> 00:21:17.360 bored for hours, like so long. And all my school 339 00:21:17.360 --> 00:21:20.960 reports would do better if they applied themselves or didn't 340 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:24.615 daydream. You know, but actually it was so boring because I got 341 00:21:24.615 --> 00:21:28.055 it really fast. I just couldn't write it very clearly. I didn't know how 342 00:21:28.055 --> 00:21:31.890 to access my written side of things and, 343 00:21:32.030 --> 00:21:35.710 and, sequencing as well. It's not, it's not just 344 00:21:35.710 --> 00:21:39.150 about spelling mistakes. It's I actually understand things 345 00:21:39.150 --> 00:21:42.895 fast, the kind of writing it down and saying it back to 346 00:21:42.895 --> 00:21:46.195 you in a linear fashion has taken a lot of work 347 00:21:47.110 --> 00:21:50.550 because my thinking like is I used to Jo, I don't even think 348 00:21:50.550 --> 00:21:54.170 straight. So my thinking is all over the place, but I can actually 349 00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:57.865 make connections that other people can't, you 350 00:21:57.865 --> 00:22:01.545 know? Yeah. So it was interesting. I didn't actually get 351 00:22:01.545 --> 00:22:05.340 my dyslexia diagnosis until my mid twenties When 352 00:22:05.340 --> 00:22:09.100 I went to night school for a high national 353 00:22:09.100 --> 00:22:12.799 certificate in business and Joanne, and they did 354 00:22:13.995 --> 00:22:16.563 assessment then. And even before the assessment, they were like, oh, we don't think you're 355 00:22:16.563 --> 00:22:18.154 that dyslexic, but you know, let's do the assessment. And then she just came out, 356 00:22:18.154 --> 00:22:21.750 she went, oh, actually you're 357 00:22:21.750 --> 00:22:25.510 very dyslexic because the threshold of how I was 358 00:22:25.510 --> 00:22:29.110 achieving to what I could be achieving was huge. So the 359 00:22:29.110 --> 00:22:32.554 higher the frustration zone, the more it is a disability, 360 00:22:33.255 --> 00:22:36.855 basically, because you're not reaching your potential, whatever that be for 361 00:22:36.855 --> 00:22:40.350 you. But at that point I'd already passed my 362 00:22:40.350 --> 00:22:44.110 nursing exams. And I can tell you now, I only got into 363 00:22:44.110 --> 00:22:47.405 nursing because there was an entrance test. I had 364 00:22:47.805 --> 00:22:51.645 bugger all qualifications. I didn't do very well at school. I've got in 365 00:22:51.645 --> 00:22:55.425 on an entrance test by, a winning and a prayer. 366 00:22:55.730 --> 00:22:59.490 And then I was with this fantastic nursing set, many of them 367 00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:03.250 from Southern Islands. And we just talked, we talked all the time 368 00:23:03.250 --> 00:23:06.495 about all the conditions about what we were learning. 369 00:23:06.955 --> 00:23:10.795 And I didn't know that all those chats were helping me 370 00:23:10.795 --> 00:23:14.550 pass my exams, because I can tell you reading was doing nothing. It wasn't 371 00:23:14.550 --> 00:23:18.010 retaining at all, but I could recall all those conversations. 372 00:23:18.790 --> 00:23:22.070 And that's how I managed to pass my nursing. And if that not happened, I 373 00:23:22.070 --> 00:23:25.835 wouldn't be here with you now. I'm not a big reader. 374 00:23:25.835 --> 00:23:29.595 I I I found that I was if I try to read a novel 375 00:23:29.595 --> 00:23:33.330 or a nonfiction or or sort of a fiction or something, I'd be reading the 376 00:23:33.330 --> 00:23:36.290 page, and I get to the bottom of the second page, and I go, I've 377 00:23:36.290 --> 00:23:38.850 not I haven't got a clue what I just read. It would just it would 378 00:23:38.850 --> 00:23:42.645 just I was I could read the words, but it just wasn't coming in. Yeah. 379 00:23:42.645 --> 00:23:45.545 But I'm but I can read technical 380 00:23:46.645 --> 00:23:50.405 or things that are nonfiction, where I'm looking for instruction or looking stuff up 381 00:23:50.405 --> 00:23:54.110 or reference information. Because my eyes are able to scan the page really, really 382 00:23:54.110 --> 00:23:57.550 quickly, lock on to what I'm trying to find, and go, right. Got it. I 383 00:23:57.550 --> 00:24:01.285 can extract data pages very quickly, but I 384 00:24:01.285 --> 00:24:04.885 can't I can't read all the fluff. It's just like Yeah. That. 385 00:24:04.885 --> 00:24:08.509 Just get me to the paragraph I need. So I can relate to that. 386 00:24:08.509 --> 00:24:11.950 Yeah. Reading reading just doesn't work for me either, really. But 387 00:24:12.269 --> 00:24:15.309 No. And, I mean, now you have to read all the time for everything. So 388 00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:18.875 I read when I have to, and I can I got taught how to speed 389 00:24:18.875 --> 00:24:21.995 read, so you can pick up, do what you said, but I had to be 390 00:24:21.995 --> 00:24:25.830 taught that? And that that did help, but it doesn't help me retain it for 391 00:24:25.830 --> 00:24:29.510 ages or anything like that. You know, I have to really work at that. But 392 00:24:29.510 --> 00:24:33.205 luckily, you know, starting off a career in nursing, cause this week 393 00:24:33.205 --> 00:24:36.705 is 36 years being a nurse. Yeah. 394 00:24:37.085 --> 00:24:40.765 So I was like, you know, I, I 395 00:24:40.765 --> 00:24:44.530 learned by doing, you know, I, most of my career 396 00:24:44.530 --> 00:24:48.289 has been emergency care, which really fits with an ADHD profile 397 00:24:48.289 --> 00:24:50.789 as well. Cause we love drama. We love excitement. 398 00:24:52.095 --> 00:24:55.935 And so that's, it works then, you know, cause I'm on adrenaline, I'm 399 00:24:55.935 --> 00:24:59.635 excited. You're, you're kind of going to the next thing. You're purpose driven, 400 00:24:59.860 --> 00:25:03.380 You know, you're literally about trying to save as many lives as you can, you 401 00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:07.140