Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your
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Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today, it's episode 121
Joanne Lockwood: with the title, Embracing Neurodiversity and
Joanne Lockwood: Queer Identity. And I have the absolute honor and
Joanne Lockwood: privilege to welcome Helen Davis. Helen supports
Joanne Lockwood: neurodivergent in adults and the organizations they
Joanne Lockwood: are in. When I asked Helen to describe her superpower, she said,
Joanne Lockwood: she has both a superpower and some Kryptonite.
Joanne Lockwood: And she thinks that having ADHD has helped her live more
Joanne Lockwood: than one life. Hello, Helen. Welcome to the show.
Helen Davies: Hi, Jo. Really fantastic to be here. Thank you. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Brilliant. We've had a bit of trouble in the green room. We've been all over
Joanne Lockwood: the place. We're into Zencast and out of Zencast and back into Zoom.
Joanne Lockwood: So these never go smoothly. But welcome them. I'm glad we finally
Joanne Lockwood: can see and hear each other, which is amazing. So,
Joanne Lockwood: Helen, embracing neurodiversity and queer
Joanne Lockwood: identities, Tell me a bit more about what you do and how we
Joanne Lockwood: can do that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, in terms of that specific
Helen Davies: point, I've noticed that there's a very, very high prevalence
Helen Davies: of neurodiversity within our queer communities. I'm not
Helen Davies: saying you have to be queer to be neurodiverse, but there tends to be a
Helen Davies: lot of people in neurodiverse who are queer. And so I
Helen Davies: think that that that therefore, as well as all the colors of a
Helen Davies: rainbow and the various identities that we have, that is
Helen Davies: very much part of the intersection that we also have and share.
Helen Davies: And practical wisdom supports neurodivergent adults, as you
Helen Davies: said, and in in all their glorious diversity,
Helen Davies: including about sex and gender as well and
Helen Davies: sexual orientation. So I myself are gender
Helen Davies: fluid, and I think it's really important for our queer
Helen Davies: community to know that there are safe spaces to go where they
Helen Davies: can, you know, disclose about their neurodiversity and actually
Helen Davies: get some help if that's what they need. You mentioned, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: the the intersection of neurodiversity, ADHD,
Joanne Lockwood: ASD, and Yeah. Queerness is is quite
Joanne Lockwood: prevalent, you might say. Yeah. But I and I don't wanna dive too much
Joanne Lockwood: into talk about the CAS report because that's Oh. That's been said a lot.
Joanne Lockwood: But that that seems to conflate the issue as being,
Joanne Lockwood: if you have neurodiversity, then you're not genuinely
Joanne Lockwood: gender dysphoric or or trans. But you're saying
Joanne Lockwood: there's a there's you could be both, and it's not a problem. You
Helen Davies: can easily be both. And I you know? And I'm
Helen Davies: part of the trans community, so I can very much consider both.
Helen Davies: And one didn't cause the other. I happen to be
Helen Davies: both. Yeah. I have. Yeah. There's
Helen Davies: a rabbit hole, isn't it? That whole cast report. I I think my
Helen Davies: concern is having had been lived in under
Helen Davies: section 28 when I first came out, And I remember the
Helen Davies: repression. I remember you didn't know if you say, if you were queer,
Helen Davies: that you, you know, if you get lose your job, you, you weren't
Helen Davies: certainly wouldn't mention it at school. You'd, you know, you'd get your head kicked
Helen Davies: in at certain places. You know, you have Jo really watch yourself.
Helen Davies: And I had thought we'd moved on decades, but it
Helen Davies: feels like literally that's reversing. And I guess I am very
Helen Davies: concerned for our trans young people who are
Helen Davies: having this level, I think, of institutional prejudice
Helen Davies: and transphobia, quite frankly. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But one one thing I'm you work in the NHS
Joanne Lockwood: or with the NHS or around the NHS. Yeah. We know that services
Joanne Lockwood: are underfunded. They're stretched. Is it just
Joanne Lockwood: that trans people have have crept up stealthily and quickly,
Joanne Lockwood: and and they're not geared up to support in the gender
Joanne Lockwood: services. Well, yeah. I mean, I guess, I also
Helen Davies: should add, as a caveat, I'm speaking as part, a person in the
Helen Davies: community rather than in my role. Of course. Yeah. That's an
Helen Davies: important distinction to make Joanne carry out these days. But I I
Helen Davies: mean, I I there's certainly a lot of, yeah, cuts
Helen Davies: these days and refocusing on what we're doing, trying to catch up
Helen Davies: post COVID and all that kind of stuff. I think there's some
Helen Davies: fundamental philosophy, philosophical differences. So if you're
Helen Davies: in a community and you want to, you know, you feel it's your right
Helen Davies: and your choice to change, you know, to towards the
Helen Davies: body that you actually feel is actually your true self.
Helen Davies: That's a choice and and a wish. And I think the trouble is is
Helen Davies: the a lot of the model in some in the gender services,
Helen Davies: there are more model, which is about you have to prove that you're trans enough,
Helen Davies: that you want it enough, and you have to live a certain way for a
Helen Davies: certain amount of time, which isn't about choice. That's about proving
Helen Davies: you tick enough boxes to warrant that proceed
Helen Davies: those procedures. And so that's like a fundamental
Helen Davies: philosophical difference of looking at us
Helen Davies: it and yeah, unfortunately given
Helen Davies: the current CAS report and the other changes, it doesn't look like it will
Helen Davies: change towards what we would prefer, which would be
Helen Davies: us to have agency over our own bodies. Yeah. I mean, we had the same
Joanne Lockwood: with the Gender Recognition Act review, the Scottish one
Joanne Lockwood: blocked by 35, the the one that Theresa May tried to
Joanne Lockwood: get going in 2018. It's kind of just at the point, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I, and maybe many others felt that the time
Joanne Lockwood: was coming, the time was right, I thought, wow, it's looking
Joanne Lockwood: optimistic. And then suddenly, the last 12 to 18
Joanne Lockwood: months. Yeah. And I th I think that's the
Helen Davies: hardest thing psychologically is we it felt like we were getting
Helen Davies: somewhere, you know, genuinely did. And then you're
Helen Davies: like, suddenly like the whole rug's been like whipped away.
Helen Davies: And then some, and, and I know that people are very concerned about
Helen Davies: that Equally, there's a lot of people in the healthcare profession
Helen Davies: who are very much, you know, all
Helen Davies: for inclusion, you know, on all levels, including
Helen Davies: about transgender services, who are wanting to make a difference, who are
Helen Davies: looking at inequalities. So health inequalities is also
Helen Davies: really actively being looked at, and, actually, I'm a clinical director for
Helen Davies: transgender health care. There's not a lot of well, I don't know if there's anyone
Helen Davies: else who is. And, you know, that's because, you know, we,
Helen Davies: we very much care about health inequalities, where I work as
Helen Davies: well. So I think there's there's much to do. It
Helen Davies: feels like it's an uphill bath. So and but
Helen Davies: there is there are places doing awareness training,
Helen Davies: trying to support people, putting in locally commissioned
Helen Davies: services for GPs, for annual health checks, doing
Helen Davies: different, like better initiatives to try and
Helen Davies: reassure the community that there are places where they can go
Helen Davies: and actually feel like they can get the care that they deserve. Because
Helen Davies: equally, I wouldn't personally want to go to any health
Helen Davies: practitioner who has a problem. You know, I don't it's mutual.
Helen Davies: No. I don't wanna see them. They don't wanna see me. And and, you know,
Helen Davies: officially you would, you know, no one would say that that there are there are
Helen Davies: these practitioners who are transphobic, but I think we can
Helen Davies: see that, you know, just as if we wish there wasn't other
Helen Davies: prejudicisms, there are going to be people in such a large
Helen Davies: workforce where that, where that's going to be the case. But a lot of,
Helen Davies: lots of work is to done to try and,
Helen Davies: you know, say that's not acceptable. And I'm part of a
Helen Davies: group of people who are 100% committed to make a difference
Helen Davies: to our trans community, as well as all the other people who
Helen Davies: need inclusion and deserve inclusion. So that's in terms
Helen Davies: of my health care side of things. I'm a I'm a great believer
Joanne Lockwood: that inherently people are good,
Joanne Lockwood: and inherently people feel they're doing the right thing. And that
Joanne Lockwood: just because their view is different, have a
Joanne Lockwood: different perspective, different lived experience, doesn't mean to say that they're a bad
Joanne Lockwood: person. I think sometimes we what we do is we jump to this polarized
Joanne Lockwood: debate Mhmm. Of you're over there and I'm over here. If you don't
Joanne Lockwood: agree with me, I I I won't accept you. And if you don't agree with
Joanne Lockwood: me, I won't accept you either. We end up being so far apart, we can't
Joanne Lockwood: actually have conversations, I think. That's what we're seeing in society at the
Joanne Lockwood: moment. It's this real polarization of perspectives.
Joanne Lockwood: And without whilst forgetting that everyone all people
Joanne Lockwood: really want is for everyone to have a good life. And Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I guess people are are worried, scared, confused, don't
Joanne Lockwood: understand, whatever it may be. Yeah. And, you know,
Helen Davies: all those things that you've also discussed, obviously, you know,
Helen Davies: They it's been, issues like, you know, like I said, going
Helen Davies: back to section 28 to the homophobia, to the aids
Helen Davies: pandemic that happened, you know, I remember those times vividly. I
Helen Davies: remember nursing the, you know, some, so this
Helen Davies: really lovely patient who was sadly an AIDS
Helen Davies: victim and he got a lot of homophobic. And I
Helen Davies: was there because back in the day, the basically the night staff
Helen Davies: weren't paying enough attention. So his partner paid for a private,
Helen Davies: you know, nurse to go and support his partner overnight. And that
Helen Davies: there were completely misunderstandings. And back then, people worried
Helen Davies: that they're gonna die from catching this. And now you're back in the
Helen Davies: day, it was like seen as the gay disease initially and stuff like that.
Helen Davies: So, you know, sadly, these difficult times have been here at different
Helen Davies: points. But when we look at neurodiversity as well, people,
Helen Davies: you know, it's another area of where people can feel
Helen Davies: excluded, where people can feel different. And that's the
Helen Davies: crossover, isn't it? You know, sometimes you can feel like you don't fit in or
Helen Davies: you're not accepted for and that there's some prejudice against
Helen Davies: you. And I I when I think back to my
Helen Davies: twenties, I can tell you now, there's no one year would've disclosed I'm dyslexic.
Helen Davies: I'd have thought I wouldn't get a Jo, bit like I wouldn't have disclosed I
Helen Davies: was, like, queer. It's like, no. You're alright. I want I needed work.
Helen Davies: Jo. So there were a couple of things you just didn't disclose, you know,
Helen Davies: or if you did, you didn't like discreetly. And
Helen Davies: interestingly, I came out as being queer, you know, over the
Helen Davies: decades a lot quicker than I came out as being neurodivergent,
Helen Davies: because it genuinely felt career limiting for a very long time.
Helen Davies: My you know, there's and even now, you know, you speak to people, they are
Helen Davies: fearful. Some people have bad experiences when they come out of
Helen Davies: being judged and some seem to find themselves suddenly being performance
Helen Davies: managed out of jobs. There's a lot of misunderstanding
Helen Davies: about neurodiversity and actually the benefits it can bring as
Helen Davies: well. You know? And so that's why, you know,
Helen Davies: I've, I've really been avidly trying to address
Helen Davies: in, you know, inequality all my life, obviously, in in
Helen Davies: health care. But I also I felt it was really important
Helen Davies: to deal with the inequality about being neurodivergent. When
Helen Davies: I worked at City University as a lecturer there, I made
Helen Davies: a point of saying I was a dyslexic tutor. Because
Helen Davies: at that point, you know, it was you you knew that people might
Helen Davies: frown upon you if you said you're a teacher in dyslexic, you
Helen Davies: know? And, and so there are I feel I mean, I look at
Helen Davies: the journey I've been both in the newer divergent world and the queer world, there
Helen Davies: are so many synergies. There really are. And, yeah, Jo. And
Helen Davies: so that's what practical wisdom is particularly supporting people who are neurodivergent,
Helen Davies: but or importantly, I also think the organizations, like you
Helen Davies: say, I agree with you. I don't think in people inherently bad,
Helen Davies: they might be misinformed that I want to help raise awareness.
Helen Davies: I want to help, you know, help change people's perspective for
Helen Davies: for the better for inclusion around, but particularly about
Helen Davies: the, ND world. You mentioned at the beginning, you you you
Joanne Lockwood: would call yourself queer, genderqueer,
Joanne Lockwood: gender fluid. Yeah. People have people have heard the term
Joanne Lockwood: trans woman. They've they've come into use to the term trans man.
Joanne Lockwood: They didn't believe trans man existed until recently. You
Joanne Lockwood: know? Yeah. I know. Well Trans women are obviously spot us a mile
Joanne Lockwood: off and then don't like us. So yeah. And we've heard about term non
Joanne Lockwood: binary recently that, again, people are kind of not sure about.
Joanne Lockwood: So how would you describe your gender fluidity? What does that mean to
Joanne Lockwood: you? Yeah. Well, it's interesting because initially, I I was
Helen Davies: like, oh, I like non binary. I'm not sure I have a particular, you
Helen Davies: know, gender I could read there. And then I found I was like, actually,
Helen Davies: Jo. Probably gender fluid is actually a better description.
Helen Davies: The thing is is that I'm I'm 54. I'm not gonna say I'm old, but
Helen Davies: I'm older. And back in the day, you didn't have all these different terms. You
Helen Davies: didn't have all these different labels. And I, you know, I just kind of didn't
Helen Davies: think about it until many decades later. And then I was
Helen Davies: like, oh, yeah. You know? And Brighton's got a very fantastic Brighton and
Helen Davies: Hoe Joanne Pride. And it I'm it made me really
Helen Davies: think about it when I got involved with that a little bit more. And I
Helen Davies: was like, oh, yeah, actually. But interesting, I also
Helen Davies: felt really shy. I did not want to come out
Helen Davies: again. I felt doing it once was fun enough. And I
Helen Davies: did know that whether it was nonbinary or gender fluid,
Helen Davies: that that, like, gender nonconforming was definitely me. I'd
Helen Davies: never felt that I was all one or the other. I just just
Helen Davies: didn't. And we you know, back in the day, we used to be called tomboys.
Helen Davies: And and, actually, in some ways for for me personally, that reflected
Helen Davies: the the the richness of having both genders
Helen Davies: really that I identified with. And that, and that is how I do
Helen Davies: feel now. Interestingly, she go on websites and if
Helen Davies: you, you even go to different women's events, you know, like,
Helen Davies: am I allowed anymore? You know, it does that happen? I
Helen Davies: actually found I never used to worry about that. And I've been involved with
Helen Davies: women's rights and issues for like decades. And then now I find
Helen Davies: myself nervous. And if, unless I see that trans women
Helen Davies: are welcome and so are people who still self identify,
Helen Davies: you know, who are gender nonconforming, then I don't go, you
Helen Davies: know, I'm like, and I know that there's a subdivide
Helen Davies: in our own communities about things as well. And I've just
Helen Davies: found it's more complicated being gender fluid. Like,
Helen Davies: people don't know what to do with you. They just don't.
Helen Davies: Let alone which toilet you use to bake.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, use that one at 10 o'clock in the morning. Use that one at 3
Joanne Lockwood: o'clock in the afternoon. It's obvious that or or whatever. Which
Joanne Lockwood: which one's free? I mean, just just pick a door.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So I I remember dealing talking to a a
Joanne Lockwood: young person, when you say young,
Joanne Lockwood: early careers or in their twenties a couple of years ago,
Joanne Lockwood: and they identified as, non
Joanne Lockwood: binary. Mhmm. They were pretty pretty supportive
Joanne Lockwood: of the Women in Tech Forum in their organization and
Joanne Lockwood: across the world. And and they've then got this
Joanne Lockwood: message from the organizers or the people who ran it,
Joanne Lockwood: say, we understand, yeah, you you you're now you're a
Joanne Lockwood: non binary. Unfortunately, that means you're no longer allowed to
Joanne Lockwood: represent and speak on our stages because this is for women. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: she she we had a good chat about this. And I and I said, well,
Joanne Lockwood: it it it really is a a struggle. If you're assigned female at birth, you
Joanne Lockwood: still have an allegiance to, from a historic point of
Joanne Lockwood: view, to sensitivities of women. You understand
Joanne Lockwood: some of the the growing up issues that that women have.
Joanne Lockwood: If you're assigned male at birth, you it's
Joanne Lockwood: really awkward. So if you're not if you're not careful, the
Joanne Lockwood: women's network could welcome assigned male at birth people who are
Joanne Lockwood: nonbinary. If you said women and non
Joanne Lockwood: binary and gender fluid people are welcome within our
Joanne Lockwood: network, then people get really freaked out, but you're not a woman enough. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: If I let if I let you in, someone who identifies as
Joanne Lockwood: so I'm feeling a a fine man at birth could come in in stealth or
Joanne Lockwood: something and then take out space and take us out. So it's really complicated,
Joanne Lockwood: all this tentative body stuff, isn't it? Very complicated. It's yeah.
Helen Davies: Yeah. And it's difficult. I mean, but it's not just that, even if
Helen Davies: you think, for example, so I'm dating somebody
Helen Davies: who is a woman. So, so if I'm gender
Helen Davies: fluid, does that make me straight when I'm feeling masculine
Helen Davies: and lesbian when I'm not Do you know what I mean? It's
Helen Davies: like, do I change between that throughout the day? Other
Helen Davies: amusing things like we have father's days and mother's days And, like,
Helen Davies: my my my child was saying to me, but you're both, aren't you? I
Helen Davies: yeah. And they were like, oh, should I get you a father's day card? They
Helen Davies: were like, why not? I said, because I do the work at both.
Helen Davies: You're a single parent. You certainly do. So it it's just
Helen Davies: interesting because but things are so binary that you just
Helen Davies: you regularly do not fit in in
Helen Davies: in in in so many boxes. But there there are
Joanne Lockwood: people, as we know, out who are trying to enforce the frigidity
Joanne Lockwood: of this binary. And I I I I understand it. Yeah. As a woman
Joanne Lockwood: myself, I understand how women have had to
Joanne Lockwood: overcome oppression, marginalization, discrimination, less
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities. So there's a real desire to make sure that we don't
Joanne Lockwood: lose what it is to be a woman Yeah. In all of
Joanne Lockwood: this Jo that we we lose the the momentum
Joanne Lockwood: of equality and equity that we still lack in society. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's it's about that. That's that's the real struggle. Yeah.
Helen Davies: And and I and I know because I I you know, I I have
Helen Davies: heard people with their different perspectives as
Helen Davies: to, you know, what they think about that and how hard
Helen Davies: fought it was to gain any grounds on women's rights. You
Helen Davies: know? And and I I know that that's felt felt very
Helen Davies: strongly in certain sectors. And I think that that's very
Helen Davies: difficult because I don't want to diminish the struggles that people had,
Helen Davies: but equally I will, or, you know, trans women are women.
Helen Davies: That's, that's my point of view. I'm not changing that. It's
Helen Davies: like you said, we we're going to have opposing views with some people and it's,
Helen Davies: I guess, it's how we deal with those opposing views. Yeah. And the
Joanne Lockwood: government don't help. But but you don't need to comment on that, obviously. But yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: It's, Yep. It is. It's just a struggle at the moment. It's,
Joanne Lockwood: over opening the paper, you know, scrolling through news reports on your
Joanne Lockwood: phone. It it's everywhere. Jo, yeah. Can we talk a bit about
Joanne Lockwood: your your neurodivergence? How it how you
Joanne Lockwood: how did how did you I mean, you obviously realized at some point in your
Joanne Lockwood: life, you were queer, genderfluid, trans, however you wanna describe yourself,
Joanne Lockwood: at some point in your life. When did you first kinda figure out that
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiversity was a thing as well? Was that kind of early on? Well,
Helen Davies: yeah. So even in primary school, I knew I found things
Helen Davies: tricky. And I think my dad even had a chat with a
Helen Davies: teacher and said, you know, I think I think my daughter is, you
Helen Davies: know, dyslexic. And they went, yeah, probably. And they were like, but we
Helen Davies: don't like to pigeonhole kids. So therefore they didn't.
Helen Davies: So we did there was no assessment. I got extra lessons, which they
Helen Davies: called remedial lessons, lovely title. And,
Helen Davies: so I was that, you know, special education needs kid
Helen Davies: at primary school. And I went to secondary school. And
Helen Davies: when we they moved, they were like, oh, let's not put her in
Helen Davies: grammar school. She won't do very well when she'll struggle. So then they
Helen Davies: put me in the comprehensive, which found by me, by the way. But,
Helen Davies: and so I went there and I remember being in the bottom set for
Helen Davies: everything, but getting the classes really quickly and then sitting there
Helen Davies: bored for hours, like so long. And all my school
Helen Davies: reports would do better if they applied themselves or didn't
Helen Davies: daydream. You know, but actually it was so boring because I got
Helen Davies: it really fast. I just couldn't write it very clearly. I didn't know how
Helen Davies: to access my written side of things and,
Helen Davies: and, sequencing as well. It's not, it's not just
Helen Davies: about spelling mistakes. It's I actually understand things
Helen Davies: fast, the kind of writing it down and saying it back to
Helen Davies: you in a linear fashion has taken a lot of work
Helen Davies: because my thinking like is I used to Jo, I don't even think
Helen Davies: straight. So my thinking is all over the place, but I can actually
Helen Davies: make connections that other people can't, you
Helen Davies: know? Yeah. So it was interesting. I didn't actually get
Helen Davies: my dyslexia diagnosis until my mid twenties When
Helen Davies: I went to night school for a high national
Helen Davies: certificate in business and Joanne, and they did
Helen Davies: assessment then. And even before the assessment, they were like, oh, we don't think you're
Helen Davies: that dyslexic, but you know, let's do the assessment. And then she just came out,
Helen Davies: she went, oh, actually you're
Helen Davies: very dyslexic because the threshold of how I was
Helen Davies: achieving to what I could be achieving was huge. So the
Helen Davies: higher the frustration zone, the more it is a disability,
Helen Davies: basically, because you're not reaching your potential, whatever that be for
Helen Davies: you. But at that point I'd already passed my
Helen Davies: nursing exams. And I can tell you now, I only got into
Helen Davies: nursing because there was an entrance test. I had
Helen Davies: bugger all qualifications. I didn't do very well at school. I've got in
Helen Davies: on an entrance test by, a winning and a prayer.
Helen Davies: And then I was with this fantastic nursing set, many of them
Helen Davies: from Southern Islands. And we just talked, we talked all the time
Helen Davies: about all the conditions about what we were learning.
Helen Davies: And I didn't know that all those chats were helping me
Helen Davies: pass my exams, because I can tell you reading was doing nothing. It wasn't
Helen Davies: retaining at all, but I could recall all those conversations.
Helen Davies: And that's how I managed to pass my nursing. And if that not happened, I
Helen Davies: wouldn't be here with you now. I'm not a big reader.
Joanne Lockwood: I I I found that I was if I try to read a novel
Joanne Lockwood: or a nonfiction or or sort of a fiction or something, I'd be reading the
Joanne Lockwood: page, and I get to the bottom of the second page, and I go, I've
Joanne Lockwood: not I haven't got a clue what I just read. It would just it would
Joanne Lockwood: just I was I could read the words, but it just wasn't coming in. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But I'm but I can read technical
Joanne Lockwood: or things that are nonfiction, where I'm looking for instruction or looking stuff up
Joanne Lockwood: or reference information. Because my eyes are able to scan the page really, really
Joanne Lockwood: quickly, lock on to what I'm trying to find, and go, right. Got it. I
Joanne Lockwood: can extract data pages very quickly, but I
Joanne Lockwood: can't I can't read all the fluff. It's just like Yeah. That.
Joanne Lockwood: Just get me to the paragraph I need. So I can relate to that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Reading reading just doesn't work for me either, really. But
Helen Davies: No. And, I mean, now you have to read all the time for everything. So
Helen Davies: I read when I have to, and I can I got taught how to speed
Helen Davies: read, so you can pick up, do what you said, but I had to be
Helen Davies: taught that? And that that did help, but it doesn't help me retain it for
Helen Davies: ages or anything like that. You know, I have to really work at that. But
Helen Davies: luckily, you know, starting off a career in nursing, cause this week
Helen Davies: is 36 years being a nurse. Yeah.
Helen Davies: So I was like, you know, I, I
Helen Davies: learned by doing, you know, I, most of my career
Helen Davies: has been emergency care, which really fits with an ADHD profile
Helen Davies: as well. Cause we love drama. We love excitement.
Helen Davies: And so that's, it works then, you know, cause I'm on adrenaline, I'm
Helen Davies: excited. You're, you're kind of going to the next thing. You're purpose driven,
Helen Davies: You know, you're literally about trying to save as many lives as you can, you
Helen Davies: know, making a difference. So I hadn't didn't realize, and it was sheer
Helen Davies: luck that actually being in the NHS was the best thing for my neurospicy
Helen Davies: brain going. So, basically, it's all this stimulation and stuff. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: High high adrenaline and downtime and high adrenaline again. So Yeah.
Helen Davies: And I I loved it. I mean, I absolutely loved it. I I was, you
Helen Davies: know, I used to you you buzz. You properly buzz. It's exciting. It's
Helen Davies: really interesting. But also any good department is actually well
Helen Davies: organized. So you it's not just you also have to be able to organize at
Helen Davies: a high level, like your patients. And, and some of them, my roles were quite
Helen Davies: senior where you were overseeing like bed management for an
Helen Davies: entire hospital. And then the cardiac arrest leak would Jo, and you'd
Helen Davies: have to, in the middle of that, go and respond to a cardiac arrest
Helen Davies: and then pick up again, getting back to the bed bed allocation.
Helen Davies: So, you know, you had to also be able to
Helen Davies: understand enough structure and organizing as well
Helen Davies: as the the kind of the more physical elements of health
Helen Davies: care. I noticed from, reading some of the show notes that you put together for
Joanne Lockwood: me in advance that you you mentioned imposter syndrome. And
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Tell tell me how that manifests. Is that is that
Joanne Lockwood: in your gender, in your identity? Is that in
Joanne Lockwood: your neurodiversity, in sorry. In a spiciness, or or is it
Joanne Lockwood: evidence? In a lot of things. Like, being a parent,
Helen Davies: Am I effing it up? I really worry about feel guilty
Helen Davies: for nearly everything. But in in in
Helen Davies: so for example, in my, you know, clinical work, I'm
Helen Davies: a clinical director and I'm actually gone up the
Helen Davies: scale. We have these band things and it goes 9 and then it
Helen Davies: goes higher and I'm higher than a 9, which only there's not that
Helen Davies: many of us in the country, really. So I'm pretty senior nurse.
Helen Davies: I still think I'll be found out soon.
Helen Davies: Right? And you kind of yeah. You just think,
Helen Davies: oh, you know, and and you're like, well, maybe there's, like,
Helen Davies: nothing special about me, and anyone could do this job.
Helen Davies: And you kind of think I mean, I forever feel grateful for where I
Helen Davies: am, but you're you you kinda worry, did you did you earn
Helen Davies: it? You know, did you do enough to get where you are? Yeah. There's a
Helen Davies: bit of worry about that. And, you know, bearing in mind I now, like,
Helen Davies: run a neurodivergent support company, you know, it took me a
Helen Davies: couple of years to feel confident enough to call
Helen Davies: myself an expert because I was like, but there's so many other people who know
Helen Davies: so much more about it than me. You know, what if I
Helen Davies: don't know enough? Luckily, now we've helped a few 100
Helen Davies: people and we got really good feedback. I'm like, oh, it's
Helen Davies: okay. Maybe I'm alright. So it's things like
Helen Davies: that. It's not always about knowing everything though, is it? I mean, I I always
Joanne Lockwood: say that I don't have to know everything as long as I I've got a
Joanne Lockwood: method or a methodology. And people often describe me as
Joanne Lockwood: considered and measured because I've got a brain that will
Joanne Lockwood: think about sequences and how I would achieve something. I don't have to
Joanne Lockwood: know everything. I've got a phone. I've got Google. I've got other stuff. I can
Joanne Lockwood: I can assimilate lots of information and rationalize
Joanne Lockwood: it and give an opinion that I believe in? So and
Joanne Lockwood: I respect other views as well. So I think if you balance all that, and
Joanne Lockwood: you don't necessarily need to be an expert in everything. Just
Joanne Lockwood: you just have to know one thing more than somebody else is what I was
Joanne Lockwood: saying. Yeah. Yeah.
Helen Davies: Yeah. And, and, and I think as my whole life has been lived
Helen Davies: experience being neurodivergent, you know, I got a psychology and counseling
Helen Davies: degree. You know, people have been my hyper focus. Like I said, that's
Helen Davies: 36 years of working with people, you know, you know, I'm qualified
Helen Davies: lecturer as well. You know, I I'm actually doing quite a lot of things that
Helen Davies: really helped make me a good coach and
Helen Davies: trainer. And, and so I do now feel quite comfortable
Helen Davies: saying I'm actually really good at running workshops. And like you
Helen Davies: said, I don't need to know everything, but what I can do is, is I
Helen Davies: know the things in terms of what to deliver about the awareness, the
Helen Davies: common struggles that people have, the common things that help people.
Helen Davies: And you can take people on a journey because it's about the people before you.
Helen Davies: It's not like, you know, all about me. You know, the whole point is
Helen Davies: it's about supporting them and their understanding. And, you know, when
Helen Davies: you've got 1 in 5 or 1 in 7 people in neurodivergent, you can guarantee
Helen Davies: wherever I go, there's gonna be a few people out there, Whether they disclose
Helen Davies: or not is another thing. So it's about creating safe environments for
Helen Davies: people to feel that they can actually talk about it or or they can
Helen Davies: say they know somebody and what these issues are Jo that
Helen Davies: they're more out in the open. And that's my gift because I genuinely,
Helen Davies: am accepting nonjudgmental and care. You know, I I want to create
Helen Davies: these environments and I want to support people
Helen Davies: be empowered to to thrive, whatever that looks like for
Helen Davies: them. Yeah. I I get that. I I I was at a conference the other
Joanne Lockwood: week, and I was chatting to this, this lady over
Joanne Lockwood: coffee and just chatting away chatting away. And and towards the end of the conversation,
Joanne Lockwood: she said, oh, and I'm, you know, a divergent if you'd hadn't noticed.
Joanne Lockwood: I had noticed. We've been chatting we've been chatting for
Joanne Lockwood: 15 minutes. I haven't said a word yet. You were just going
Joanne Lockwood: girlfriend all over the place. She's a wonderful person, a
Joanne Lockwood: wonderful conversation. And, yeah, and it's
Joanne Lockwood: if you let people speak, let people share stories about themselves,
Joanne Lockwood: you find out a huge amount. I mean, it's fun to me. It's I love
Joanne Lockwood: doing this podcast. You know, I can have conversations with people I'd never have conversation
Joanne Lockwood: with. But, yeah, impostor syndrome, it's I I think I'm I've
Joanne Lockwood: been doing this this role now for about 8 years. Mhmm. And I
Joanne Lockwood: transitioned about 7 and a half, 8 years ago.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think in the early days, I was I had I had this massive
Joanne Lockwood: impostor syndrome about saying the word we, as in we
Joanne Lockwood: women or Uh-huh. Talking about, you know, as a as
Joanne Lockwood: a as an insight rather than an announcement. And that that took me ages.
Joanne Lockwood: And I still when I say those sort of things, I still have this
Joanne Lockwood: kind of looking around me if I'm in public there. Did anyone
Joanne Lockwood: give me a funny look by saying that? And so that that would probably I'll
Joanne Lockwood: probably never get rid of that. But, yeah, but being in EDI space,
Joanne Lockwood: again, it's it's just
Joanne Lockwood: every day you improve. You continue learning. When you look over your shoulder, you look
Joanne Lockwood: back and think, wow, 7 years ago. Believe me, I've come a long way. But
Joanne Lockwood: you look you look down at your feet, you think, I haven't moved. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: it's that's kind of that kind of thing, isn't it? And then as you say,
Joanne Lockwood: believing people are gonna call you out there. Oh, they're far better than me. They're
Joanne Lockwood: far good. Yeah. They they call you. They just feel nice. It's all it's all
Joanne Lockwood: fluff and bluster on on social media. They're they're just the same as I am.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. They're trying to figure it out as well. So There's a lot of trying
Helen Davies: to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, having seen, you you
Helen Davies: talking in the public spaces, I mean, like, you're you
Helen Davies: know, I I really love your approach and your story's so
Helen Davies: compelling, you know? So I'm really glad that you're in the space where you are
Helen Davies: in EDI and you are sharing those things. And, and you
Helen Davies: like, particularly, you can bring me, like you said, that open to a
Helen Davies: conversation about it to help people, you know, along their
Helen Davies: understanding journey. So I think that's very powerful, really. Yeah. Because
Joanne Lockwood: people are people are also scared of getting it wrong, aren't they? Oh, you must
Joanne Lockwood: as you're a devoted person, genderfluid person, a queer person Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: People must be really kind of wary around you. It was,
Joanne Lockwood: like, hyper hyper kind of concerned about did I get that wrong? Yeah.
Helen Davies: You can definitely I have. It was interesting. I have been in some
Helen Davies: meetings where we're trying to look at different inequality stuff, and and
Helen Davies: people, yeah, like proper nervous and and almost say
Helen Davies: nothing because they don't want to say something and get it wrong and
Helen Davies: and being really worried about that. And and
Helen Davies: that's unfortunate because if people are that worried, then,
Helen Davies: you know, that's all that they're focusing on instead of the difference that they
Helen Davies: could make, because they're, you know, they're open to thinking
Helen Davies: a certain way, and they could actually make changes that are more
Helen Davies: welcoming or make a difference to the client group that they're
Helen Davies: they're actually, you know, feeling a bit nervous about getting it wrong for.
Joanne Lockwood: That that reminds me of when we started talking before you before I press the
Joanne Lockwood: record button. I was saying, just checking your pronouns, and you and you
Joanne Lockwood: just sort of shrugged your shoulders at me and said, Annie. I went, how can
Joanne Lockwood: I work with Annie? I said, actually, Eddie, that's fine.
Joanne Lockwood: That's fine. I thought, you mean, I have to make a
Joanne Lockwood: decision about the pronouns I use for you. Yeah. Alright.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Oh, okay then. Okay. Where is she? That's fine if you're happy with that.
Joanne Lockwood: It was then so I wasn't nervous about asking you. I was kinda bouncing with
Joanne Lockwood: the call. It it wasn't a problem, but I can imagine people who are
Joanne Lockwood: less used to those type of conversations would have been really kind of
Joanne Lockwood: like, oh, my God. What do I do now? Yeah. And
Helen Davies: if you're being particularly cruel, you could bounce it around. That'd be quite funny, but
Helen Davies: I haven't. But yeah. It's like Is she? Tell me what Is
Helen Davies: she? Hey. No. She Let's see what happens. Just confuse
Helen Davies: people. Yeah. I, yeah, I genuinely don't don't
Helen Davies: mind actually. Jo, yeah. But that, you know, obviously it's such a personal thing,
Helen Davies: isn't it? Cause also, you know, I've got, you know, I've got friends
Helen Davies: and know sometimes they're identifying as they, and she,
Helen Davies: and other times that it's just they and that, you know, they, it
Helen Davies: can flex. So even with the same person, I think you can be on
Helen Davies: a journey that it can, it literally can be fluid as well. So
Helen Davies: just checking in is always handy, isn't it? Yeah. No. It's it's always good to
Joanne Lockwood: ask. I've I've got a a a professional friend
Joanne Lockwood: who I've only known as a as a woman. And
Joanne Lockwood: then probably a couple of years ago, they announced on
Joanne Lockwood: Facebook or LinkedIn that they were non binary, they, then,
Joanne Lockwood: pronouns. And I've got a lot of friends who know this person, and it's really
Joanne Lockwood: confusing for them because it it took because they knew them before in
Joanne Lockwood: their previous life and assigned their birth life. So they've they've gone
Joanne Lockwood: through a transition from male to female to non binary.
Joanne Lockwood: And they not all of them got the memo about the non binary.
Joanne Lockwood: So there's there's there's still they're still proud of themselves getting it right for
Joanne Lockwood: saying she when they've known them as he. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's it's and I'm sort of correcting and doing this all the time. It's like,
Joanne Lockwood: hey, can you see people look at me go, yeah. What? It's
Joanne Lockwood: like, their brains are being blown out. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It is it is it is kinda tricky for
Joanne Lockwood: for people outside of our echo chamber, isn't it? This Well, it depends.
Helen Davies: Is I thought that. But if you speak to any 20 year old,
Helen Davies: they don't find it tricky. Yeah. Yeah. That so I do also think
Helen Davies: there's, like, there's a certain threshold in
Helen Davies: the ages. Like, we we are making a meal of it,
Helen Davies: But but actually, the twenties were like, what? Like, they nip in and
Helen Davies: out all all that language and have even more expanded language about it
Helen Davies: that, you know, I I mean, I'm never gonna be cool with the kids in
Helen Davies: general. So but the you know, the they really don't
Helen Davies: have the same complexities we do about it. They just
Helen Davies: don't, which is A lot of its learned behavior, socialization, that
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Colonialism, religion. Well, that's kind of you can blame
Joanne Lockwood: everybody. Blame the Romans. So are the Romans.
Helen Davies: Yeah. The Romans. Yeah. What they have done for us? That's Monty
Joanne Lockwood: Python. Yeah. I I don't think our average listeners probably heard of Monty Python if
Joanne Lockwood: they're switching it gently. So you mentioned
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I don't wanna pry, but you mentioned that you got a family. And
Joanne Lockwood: you mentioned about your not only are you queer
Joanne Lockwood: in terms of identity, but then that that means your sexuality
Joanne Lockwood: becomes a a kind of a moving target as well. And I I often joke
Joanne Lockwood: with my wife about this as well, because
Joanne Lockwood: it doesn't really matter to us. You know? You got a
Joanne Lockwood: census form. You gotta tick a box. You know? Which is why I I tend
Joanne Lockwood: to use pansexual because it means you can't I don't have to
Joanne Lockwood: tell you anything. It just means anything's possible.
Joanne Lockwood: My my wife tends to use bisexual, but only because it it
Joanne Lockwood: it makes more sense to most people that she's a woman who was
Joanne Lockwood: married to a Joanne, who's now married to a woman. And it kinda it allows
Joanne Lockwood: them to go, okay, I get it now, without calling herself a lesbian. Because she's
Joanne Lockwood: not gay. She's also bi. Because she she'll
Joanne Lockwood: she'll she'll ogle The Rock on telly as much as she will,
Joanne Lockwood: me, if you like. So Yeah. Yeah. Jo, yeah, she's
Joanne Lockwood: she's kinda open to, all interactions. But, yeah, it's,
Joanne Lockwood: it's really hard when you try and map this into a 3 a 2 dimensional
Joanne Lockwood: scale, though, isn't it? Oh, it is as well. Because even if
Helen Davies: chats that I've had with, like, my partner and they're like, oh, so what
Helen Davies: do you what is it okay to say we're girlfriends?
Helen Davies: You know? Or what are the term? And then we kind of went, oh,
Helen Davies: because, you know, kind of partner straight off on a few first few dates
Helen Davies: sounds sounds a bit too heavy. Do you know what I mean? So this is
Helen Davies: horrible. I was like, oh, I don't know. You know? And then because
Helen Davies: there isn't quite the the language or if it is it for
Helen Davies: me, like, it just felt a bit odd. I think somebody said
Helen Davies: something like you can have, like, they friend or something, and I
Helen Davies: just friend or them friend. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, nah.
Helen Davies: But, you know, but for someone else, that might fit. But it was such
Helen Davies: a weird conversation to have. So yeah.
Helen Davies: It yeah. The I I don't think the language has caught up. But
Helen Davies: like you said, it it it's a tricky one to to navigate.
Helen Davies: And it's interesting, in terms of when you say about socialization,
Helen Davies: I was trying to explain to like my
Helen Davies: child the other day, you know, I can't remember how it came out, but I
Helen Davies: said, oh yeah, when I was younger, I, you you know, I did get a
Helen Davies: bit of issues for, you know, for, for being a lesbian. He was like,
Helen Davies: why? I don't get it. Why would they mean? And of
Helen Davies: course, like they've not come across that yet. You know, they don't
Helen Davies: understand that at primary school age and like, well, well, why would you do that?
Helen Davies: Why would you exclude people or treat people different? And they're like, oh, that doesn't
Helen Davies: sound very nice. And, and it's interesting, the ideas
Helen Davies: of young children, you know, where they are in this,
Helen Davies: you know, they're the until they're socialized, they're the kind of
Helen Davies: not then they just don't don't see it as an issue.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That phrase, hate is a learned behavior. It's not
Joanne Lockwood: inherent. It's you know, we have biases and safety mechanism,
Joanne Lockwood: protectionism, and all this sort of thing. But actually weaponize it is a is a
Joanne Lockwood: learned behavior, isn't it? It's not a Yeah. Not inherent.
Helen Davies: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely. But it is quite interesting
Helen Davies: though, is the other things that is quite in terms of
Helen Davies: neurodiversity as well. There are different family norms on that as
Helen Davies: well. So you might have Joanne entire neurospicy
Helen Davies: household, but if they haven't bothered to have a
Helen Davies: diagnosis for whatever reason, they may not identify as that.
Helen Davies: And then you'll have other people who, you know, realize
Helen Davies: that their child has just been diagnosed with ADHD.
Helen Davies: And then, like, oh, I have all those traits. Oh, does that mean I am?
Helen Davies: Because there's a lot of people from 30 plus who didn't
Helen Davies: equally have that language or that level of interest when we were at school,
Helen Davies: you know. And so that's also changed over the decades as well. And so you've
Helen Davies: got a lot of people who you're realizing because of members of their family
Helen Davies: or friends are getting diagnosis and they realize that they've got a
Helen Davies: lot of those traits that actually may be
Helen Davies: they have that as well. So so that's that's quite
Helen Davies: interesting because it's quite common for whole families to be
Helen Davies: neurodiverse, to be honest. Mhmm. There's a hereditary element to
Helen Davies: it. I'm certainly probably more is this
Joanne Lockwood: is there equivalent of gaydar for neurodiverse? End end
Joanne Lockwood: endal or something. Endal. I'm kind of Haven't seen it yet.
Helen Davies: No. I'm kind of more hyperaware when I'm around
Joanne Lockwood: people thinking, Ed, there's some
Joanne Lockwood: certain characteristics and certain ways of speaking, certain
Joanne Lockwood: ways of interactions and doing and all this. I think
Joanne Lockwood: it's probably ASD or some level of
Joanne Lockwood: autism, anything. And then you just you didn't bother
Joanne Lockwood: mentioning it. And then you you just learn to to put that into your
Joanne Lockwood: little toolset in your head saying, okay, that I need to make sure
Joanne Lockwood: that I'm explaining things differently or just be prepared or Yeah. We're gonna have a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation differently and or be prepared for a bit of hyperfocus or a
Joanne Lockwood: bit of bit of randomness going on here. Yeah. But
Joanne Lockwood: is there such a thing as as as this neurotypical we talk about?
Joanne Lockwood: You know, this this bell curve of normality where the actual
Joanne Lockwood: normal bit is is so narrow. Is it everybody's on kind of some sort
Joanne Lockwood: of diversion spectrum somewhere, aren't they? I mean, no one everyone could be
Helen Davies: Everybody is different, but I think people who are
Helen Davies: neurotypical is a term obviously where it's a majority of the population.
Helen Davies: So when there is still 1 in 5 or 1 in 7 who aren't,
Helen Davies: then then they're the people who read the
Helen Davies: side of the curve, basically, in terms of whatever normal is. And so the other
Helen Davies: thing is to think about is like to get a diagnosis, you have to have
Helen Davies: a full suite of the traits. So you could have
Helen Davies: some new trait, new traits, but if you don't have a full suite, you
Helen Davies: don't win the, win the Lockwood ND prize of that
Helen Davies: label. But if you but you could still be chat you know,
Helen Davies: struggling. So for for example,
Helen Davies: I do, like, for we're supporting people who are on the waiting
Helen Davies: list for autism and ADHD assessments. We're
Helen Davies: supporting one of the the Kent organizations. And the top four
Helen Davies: issues that both autistics and ADHD have is planning and
Helen Davies: organizing, is attention and focus, harnessing emotions,
Helen Davies: and also managing sleep. They're the really highly prevalent
Helen Davies: problems. That doesn't mean that other people in the population do not have
Helen Davies: those challenges, but those are very common difficult
Helen Davies: traits that they share, which is why we aimed at those
Helen Davies: particular traits. So I I've also stepped away.
Helen Davies: It's like, I think labels are useful for heuristics, but I make
Helen Davies: it a bit more simple. If you're struggling with this and you
Helen Davies: want some support, that's what we do, you know, so that you can
Helen Davies: do it by the the challenge rather than
Helen Davies: a label. Do you, we talked about the full suite, and I
Joanne Lockwood: I appreciate that. Yeah. You just say the the bowel curve has
Joanne Lockwood: upper quartile, upper percentile, and lower percentile, and the people in the middle.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's extremely difficult, as you say, to get the full
Joanne Lockwood: suite, you know, the the occasional chair, the the sofa,
Joanne Lockwood: and the footstool to to to get your diagnosis. But then the waiting lists are
Joanne Lockwood: incredibly long at the moment, aren't they? Gotcha. Mhmm.
Helen Davies: Yeah. That's a really, really big challenge, which is why Fair Play to
Helen Davies: NHS camp because they're actually doing something about supporting
Helen Davies: people while they're on the waiting list. Because unfortunately, the need is
Helen Davies: massively outstripped like the, the services that like
Helen Davies: significantly and that's everywhere up and down the country. So there there
Helen Davies: that is also being looked at at national level. But in the meantime, I
Helen Davies: think it's really good that bases like NHS, Kent are
Helen Davies: actually supporting their communities and offering things
Helen Davies: to to support the waiting list as well. So I think, you know, applaud what
Helen Davies: they're doing. But, yes, they're astronomical waiting lists.
Helen Davies: Yeah. What worries me is that
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of people are going undiagnosed. A lot of people are
Joanne Lockwood: living suspecting, as you say. I've I've met
Joanne Lockwood: several people who ended up going through diagnosis because their
Joanne Lockwood: their child was being diagnosed. Yeah. And then as as that
Joanne Lockwood: process came to light, listen to how the
Joanne Lockwood: clinician, physician was talking to this person around their diagnosis. They went,
Joanne Lockwood: hang on a minute. That's me as well. That's me as well. That's me as
Joanne Lockwood: well. So we've got lots of older generation who are
Joanne Lockwood: just coming out now, aren't they? Yes. They really
Helen Davies: are. They really are. And, and it's really quite a big thing for
Helen Davies: people. And, you know, it doesn't stop there when you actually find out you
Helen Davies: are, there's also a sense of loss of what could have had
Helen Davies: happened and didn't, or what should have happened, for example. So there's a
Helen Davies: grieving process with it too, because you suddenly think if I had
Helen Davies: help, what would have my life been like? You know, so that
Helen Davies: that can also happen as well. And yeah.
Helen Davies: So it can be a tricky one and sometimes it can feel like it gets
Helen Davies: worse before it gets better. Because also having a diagnosis isn't
Helen Davies: the same as actually having support. You know,
Helen Davies: you you once you know where your specific issues are,
Helen Davies: then you can target that to try and get the support that you need.
Helen Davies: So, actually, the diagnosis does one thing, but, actually, you're then on a
Helen Davies: journey to try and think about what things would help you
Helen Davies: specifically. Yeah. I I often think I don't know if this is the
Joanne Lockwood: wrong way or right way of looking at it. I I think if you look
Joanne Lockwood: at our prehistoric evolution, when
Joanne Lockwood: when was writing and mathematics a requirement in in, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, living in in those times? You know? I think, well,
Joanne Lockwood: surely the weird ones are the people who who can read and write and spell.
Joanne Lockwood: Because that's that's kind of a learned behavior. And who says being able
Joanne Lockwood: to, be able to read and write is is is
Joanne Lockwood: our human norm? Communication, obviously, is. But,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, we have people who are artistic. They cave paint. We have people who
Joanne Lockwood: are accurate. They could throw a spear straight. We have people who are good at
Joanne Lockwood: nurturing. We have people who are good at this. And I think society is trying
Joanne Lockwood: to create these these constructs of normality. Mhmm. And,
Joanne Lockwood: again, we're trying to fit people into these little boxes. And, again, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: not trying to get anything away from someone who has no divergent or ND or
Joanne Lockwood: or whatever this whatever their their their superpower or super spiciness
Joanne Lockwood: is. But we we we wanna fit people into defined
Joanne Lockwood: spectrums of things rather than to say that, okay. You
Joanne Lockwood: you you don't read about that great, but, hey. Wow. You're an amazing person
Joanne Lockwood: doing this, this, and this, and this. We're taught we often miss, isn't it? Yeah.
Helen Davies: And I think that's, you know, you hit the nail on head about inclusivity.
Helen Davies: What if we actually just talk about the difference is
Helen Davies: normal to be expected, you know, that actually we're
Helen Davies: looking at what people's strengths are, the things that they find tricky,
Helen Davies: you know, and that we're just kind of managing to get everyone
Helen Davies: to not just thrive, but, but also
Helen Davies: work in harmony with each other to, to do the thing, whatever it
Helen Davies: is they're trying to do at work or at home, or, you know, that,
Helen Davies: that they're actually it's embraced because, you know, the whole
Helen Davies: point Is about communities. That's what we did have in the katodes, you
Helen Davies: know, you know, working together towards a common goal and
Helen Davies: surely working towards together, like a common goal, like sustainability,
Helen Davies: for example, is definitely worthwhile rather
Helen Davies: than having many, many labels and advisory
Helen Davies: approaches. Yeah. I I suppose our humanity though is all
Joanne Lockwood: about bias and stereotypes and our brain functions, how we process stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: Isn't it? So as much as we could sit back here and be enlightened,
Joanne Lockwood: I I know I know that I'm a judgmental person, the same as
Joanne Lockwood: everybody else. It's It's it's what you do with that judgment that matters, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: How do you put that judgment filter in? How do you stop it coming out
Joanne Lockwood: of your mouth or stopping it occupying your brain? And you can have
Helen Davies: unconscious bias for sure. I I guess, you know, yeah,
Helen Davies: it's it's having some awareness and that that you might have an
Helen Davies: unconscious bias that, you know, you that you can think about,
Helen Davies: you know, inclusivity and what you're actively doing to
Helen Davies: embody it in the workplace, for example, or the club. It doesn't
Helen Davies: always have to be just the workplace. There's plenty other organizations
Helen Davies: that we are involved with and institutions.
Helen Davies: So, yeah, I think it's just having awareness of those things
Helen Davies: and actually the function sometimes of these labels, which
Helen Davies: is the other need for it is that it's a heuristic. It's a way of
Helen Davies: describing things, you know, stereotypes are there for a reason, because there's a
Helen Davies: collection of things that come together that help in one word
Helen Davies: helped. You know, I say the word ADHD, then people get a
Helen Davies: rough idea that that person's probably impulsive, might be a bit late
Helen Davies: for meetings or, you know, they'll have a there'll be certain characteristics that
Helen Davies: people associate with that term. And so it does have a
Helen Davies: function in terms of that's perspective.
Helen Davies: One of the things I think is important though, is I guess,
Helen Davies: is how you also find each other, how you find your tribe.
Helen Davies: Because if you feel like you're the only person, you know, not just the only
Helen Davies: guy in the village, but the only ND in the village, then you actually, you
Helen Davies: can feel very alone and it can feel very difficult. And you
Helen Davies: almost feel like you're weird and not validated
Helen Davies: in who you are. One of the biggest outcomes that we had
Helen Davies: from our, coaching that we did over the last, you know, 6
Helen Davies: months plus was that people felt validated and hurt.
Helen Davies: And that they actually, some of their ways of coping were actually
Helen Davies: completely fine and actually really good and useful for them to
Helen Davies: use. I mean, the other thing that I'm wanting to launch and
Helen Davies: we are launching from middle next month, so mid May,
Helen Davies: is we are launching something called the neurodivergent champion scheme.
Helen Davies: And I'm really excited about that because that's the whole idea is
Helen Davies: that you can have neurodivergent people who are
Helen Davies: championing happy to be visible. You can have allies
Helen Davies: who are happy to be visible, and that there's an emblem that goes with
Helen Davies: it, and they can put that on their web page, whatever their organization
Helen Davies: is. They can, like, put it on their footer if it's just an
Helen Davies: individual, you know, where wherever they want to display it. And then you can
Helen Davies: actually know that that person is, you know, ND or
Helen Davies: ND friendly, and if you can approach them,
Helen Davies: because then you actually know that you feel safe. Because
Helen Davies: like I said, a lot of people don't feel like they can be out and
Helen Davies: then they can actually got a safe place to go. So that's something that
Helen Davies: we're also gonna have a charter that people sign up to, but that's something
Helen Davies: we're launching, yeah, very soon, because I think it's important
Helen Davies: for there to be visibility and for there to be role models and for
Helen Davies: people you can approach when you're, you know, not sure in your journey.
Joanne Lockwood: It's kind of like the, pronouns. It's kind of like
Helen Davies: Yeah. The flag. And we've also got,
Joanne Lockwood: the sunflower landyards and things as well, haven't we, where we get people
Joanne Lockwood: so it's it's allowing people. It's signposting for
Joanne Lockwood: allies, to be an ally, to know where your safe spaces are.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And to help people interact with you in a more positive way, I
Joanne Lockwood: guess. Yeah. And the sunflower is great because, like, you can wear that the the
Helen Davies: lanyards and everything to say, like, I need help or be aware that there's a,
Helen Davies: you know, there's an issue that might be a hidden disability. So I think it's,
Helen Davies: that's got a really important function. Many of my friends use that
Helen Davies: as well. I think the neurodiversion champion scheme is kind of
Helen Davies: akin, but different to that because it's actually saying, I'm
Helen Davies: proud. I'm neurodiverse. Come here.
Joanne Lockwood: You can't see this, listeners. I've I've got my sunflower
Joanne Lockwood: leggings on today, and these actually have a a
Joanne Lockwood: charitable donation when you buy them as well to support the course. Very good.
Joanne Lockwood: But but it yeah. It is. I I I think this is what kind
Joanne Lockwood: of worries people who are kind of not in the club,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, not in the, not in the inner circle, not in the echo chamber
Joanne Lockwood: of EDI, and neurodiversity, and and gender diversity, whatever it may be
Joanne Lockwood: with disability, is that that let's go back to this fear of getting it
Joanne Lockwood: wrong. There's always there's always language. There's always protocols. There's always
Joanne Lockwood: kind of signposting that goes on and say, hang on a minute. What about me?
Joanne Lockwood: What about me? I've I've I've I've got needs as well. And it it's
Joanne Lockwood: and it all seems to be as they and I'm sorry for the language, but
Joanne Lockwood: pandering to the minorities is kind of the language. We hear this all the
Joanne Lockwood: time, don't we? And it's Yeah. Yeah. It's not pandering. It's just going, how can
Joanne Lockwood: I show you respect? How can I understand who you are? How can
Joanne Lockwood: I what can I do to help? I think that's called equity,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? Equity. Yay. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: But the new generation, the gen z's, the gen alphas, as you said,
Joanne Lockwood: they kinda got all this stuff. They got it off pat, and they they almost
Joanne Lockwood: do it like a little bio is when they meet each other. They go, hi.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm Jake. I'm I'm trans, non binary, neurodiverse, ADHD,
Joanne Lockwood: and Asperger's, and this, and the other thing. And they oh, okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Cool. Yeah. Fine. Yeah. And they often equate it Jo if
Joanne Lockwood: you're if you're old enough to remember modems. No. Dial up the Internet.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah? Because there used to be this screeching noise in there. And I that was
Joanne Lockwood: all this protocol of establishing how fast they could speak to each other if
Joanne Lockwood: there's error correction noise kind of thing. And so that's what we're doing. Yeah. The
Joanne Lockwood: younger guys are now sort of doing this little screechy noise to each other going,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, I got it now we can now communicate. And Yeah. Us Gen
Joanne Lockwood: Z, Gen X, boomers and later millennials are It's
Joanne Lockwood: kinda still trying still trying to connect at 1900 and and the the ball
Joanne Lockwood: trade's wrong. Yeah.
Helen Davies: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's part of the language
Helen Davies: evolving as well. Isn't it over time, you know, which is why,
Helen Davies: you know, 30 plus in a, cool, cool in the back foot
Helen Davies: and beginning to catch up. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm starting to feel more in common with my mom these days. I I do
Joanne Lockwood: Gen Z's because I've kind of got used to being with my
Joanne Lockwood: mum. I mean, well, how old do I? I'm I'm not far off
Joanne Lockwood: 60. So I've I've I've lived a fair bit and been to be
Joanne Lockwood: perfect a few things. But yeah. And I I I find it
Joanne Lockwood: refreshing, though, just the younger generation, the attitude of society, the way it's
Joanne Lockwood: evolving. Mhmm. I I I kinda warm to
Joanne Lockwood: it. It's it's where I wanna be. I I I wanna be
Joanne Lockwood: only 50 years younger again. I'm gonna go. This is this this world is
Joanne Lockwood: getting better every year. Yeah. No. I do love
Helen Davies: the approach. And and when you speak to people, it's really great. And, you know,
Helen Davies: yeah, it it's it's really good. Not just the Brighton Bobbles
Helen Davies: that does that. No. No. So
Joanne Lockwood: you you got as well as being a clinical director, Joanne 9
Joanne Lockwood: upwards, you know, one of the few in the country. So you got your
Joanne Lockwood: own? Is it a charity, Practical Wisdom? Is it charity or CIC? It's not for
Helen Davies: profit. So yeah, or everything is clamped back in. Yeah. Brilliant.
Joanne Lockwood: And so do you wanna just give us an update about
Joanne Lockwood: what what it what it does and how people can get hold of you and,
Joanne Lockwood: and interact? Yeah. So we we
Helen Davies: currently, do a couple of things. So we support people on the waiting
Helen Davies: list, and we can also support organizations as well
Helen Davies: with, particularly neurodiverse challenges. So we can run groups or
Helen Davies: do evergreen products that support things like managing
Helen Davies: attention and focus, planning and organizing. Like
Helen Davies: I said, the harnessing emotion, not many wanna doing that one.
Helen Davies: And also, you know, harnessing sleep, which is, you know, a little
Helen Davies: tricky to improve your sleep at times. So yeah. So we help with those. We've
Helen Davies: got a few other courses coming online as well. So there there's that
Helen Davies: aspect, which is about speed supporting people, individual
Helen Davies: neurodiversity individually to thrive. So that's like our ND thrive
Helen Davies: suite. And then obviously I do public speaking and
Helen Davies: awareness. I also do something that's for teams, which is about an
Helen Davies: organization trying to get the best harmony they Joanne,
Helen Davies: out of their teams that is neuroinclusive because actually
Helen Davies: when people aren't disclosing, if we make it a bit more neuroinclusive
Helen Davies: all around, they win, but also you can enhance productivity
Helen Davies: overall. So that that's kind of the natural rhythm thing we
Helen Davies: do. And lastly is the neurodivergent champions scheme. It's
Helen Davies: free, and you can be completely involved with that. If you, as an
Helen Davies: individual or your club or your organization is interested in
Helen Davies: that, and you could you're happy to sign up to the charter, then you're you're
Helen Davies: very, very welcome to be a part of that when we're launching that
Helen Davies: as from mid May. And you can contact us on
Helen Davies: hello at practical wisdom dot UK.
Helen Davies: There's no cut no co. So it's fellow at practical wisdom dot
Helen Davies: UK. And, yeah, we're more than happy to help you.
Joanne Lockwood: You're on LinkedIn. So Helen Davis. That's
Joanne Lockwood: Davis with an I e s at the end. That's it. Uh-huh.
Joanne Lockwood: Written Davies, but pronounced Davis. Helen
Joanne Lockwood: Davis. Practical wisdom, and
Joanne Lockwood: superstar NHS above level 9, clinical direct.
Helen Davies: Yeah. Who only got there because of all the help they got. So yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And you're gonna get caught out one day and, and you'll you'll
Joanne Lockwood: hold your head in shame for being Yeah. Just you. Sorry.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm just me. That's okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Helen, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have a conversation with
Joanne Lockwood: you today. It is been an absolute Jo, and so so
Helen Davies: lovely to able to talk to you. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank
Helen Davies: you so much. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your
Joanne Lockwood: ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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