WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:10.825 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:10.825 --> 00:00:14.424 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm 3 00:00:14.424 --> 00:00:18.240 Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the 4 00:00:18.240 --> 00:00:21.700 heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.705 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:25.705 --> 00:00:29.065 a world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:29.065 --> 00:00:32.825 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:32.825 --> 00:00:36.289 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:36.670 --> 00:00:40.050 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.430 --> 00:00:43.975 Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.114 --> 00:00:46.934 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.475 --> 00:00:50.510 reflect, and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.210 --> 00:00:54.970 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.970 --> 00:00:57.135 to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.195 --> 00:01:02.815 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.515 --> 00:01:07.300 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.300 --> 00:01:10.840 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.825 --> 00:01:17.005 And today is episode 122 19 00:01:18.665 --> 00:01:22.125 with the title From Silence to Advocacy. 20 00:01:22.740 --> 00:01:26.040 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Emma Riley. 21 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:30.280 Emma is the program governance and operation manager for the Global 22 00:01:30.755 --> 00:01:34.435 Privacy Office of RX. And when I asked Emma to 23 00:01:34.435 --> 00:01:38.115 describe her superpowers, she says she is articulate enough to 24 00:01:38.115 --> 00:01:41.830 speak in high stress situations. Well, let's hope today isn't 25 00:01:41.830 --> 00:01:45.670 that stressful. Hello, Emma. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. 26 00:01:45.670 --> 00:01:49.454 Thank you. Thank you for speaking with me. Absolute pleasure. We 27 00:01:49.454 --> 00:01:52.255 met recently, I think, at, an event in London, and, 28 00:01:53.134 --> 00:01:55.615 you told me some of your story, which we'll get on to in a minute. 29 00:01:55.615 --> 00:01:59.030 I'm really fascinated to find out more. So I called this episode from 30 00:01:59.030 --> 00:02:02.750 silence to advocacy. Do you wanna give me a bit of history of what 31 00:02:02.870 --> 00:02:06.496 where where you've been over the last few years, I guess. 32 00:02:06.496 --> 00:02:10.264 A few years, more like few decades. Short version. 33 00:02:10.264 --> 00:02:13.760 Yeah. So I I'm I'm gay, but I didn't really know that 34 00:02:13.760 --> 00:02:17.599 until sort of mid I 35 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:21.379 don't know. And end of my teens, really, beginning in my twenties. 36 00:02:21.745 --> 00:02:25.045 But I I had a history of being bullied a lot at school, 37 00:02:25.265 --> 00:02:29.025 so quite quite silent in that sense and that, I didn't get a lot 38 00:02:29.025 --> 00:02:32.650 of chance to sort of speak at that point. I then joined the military, the 39 00:02:32.650 --> 00:02:36.490 Royal Navy. And again, silence was very much part 40 00:02:36.490 --> 00:02:40.315 of my identity there because at the time that I joined, it 41 00:02:40.395 --> 00:02:43.995 was illegal to be gay in the military. So we can talk 42 00:02:43.995 --> 00:02:47.675 about what happened to me then, but basically what's happened since then is 43 00:02:47.675 --> 00:02:50.740 that I I've, tried to use 44 00:02:51.600 --> 00:02:55.120 my voice where I can to do a little bit of 45 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.640 good, to try and change what happened to me into something that 46 00:02:58.640 --> 00:03:02.385 actually does does something better for the world 47 00:03:02.385 --> 00:03:05.985 than actually what happened to me. I hate bullying in all forms, and so I 48 00:03:05.985 --> 00:03:09.489 try and challenge that when I can now. I I'm also ex forces. I I 49 00:03:09.489 --> 00:03:12.550 was in the I joined the RAF from school in 1981. 50 00:03:13.890 --> 00:03:17.270 That time when Charles Diana got married. It was that July. 51 00:03:17.755 --> 00:03:21.515 I joined in October. So and I I remember it was very it 52 00:03:21.515 --> 00:03:25.194 was drummed into you right from the very beginning around drugs are bad, 53 00:03:25.194 --> 00:03:28.554 being gay is bad. There's a lot of things are bad. Yeah. Or we won't 54 00:03:28.730 --> 00:03:32.490 it's going to kill people, by the way, as well. So Yes. Yeah. 55 00:03:32.490 --> 00:03:35.130 There's the bad things you could do, but, actually, this is something you should you 56 00:03:35.130 --> 00:03:38.894 should be thinking about. And I always remember that that that there's sort 57 00:03:38.894 --> 00:03:42.254 of there's always this kind of humor about if you were gonna sit on someone 58 00:03:42.254 --> 00:03:44.734 else's bed, you had to make sure you have both feet on the floor, then 59 00:03:44.734 --> 00:03:47.660 it was okay. If you lift if you both have if if you well, you 60 00:03:47.660 --> 00:03:50.380 had to leave one foot on there. Otherwise, it's good to see. It was one 61 00:03:50.380 --> 00:03:53.180 it was one foot on the ground. You had to keep one foot on the 62 00:03:53.180 --> 00:03:56.834 ground, which is fine, I suppose, if you're in the the bottom bunk. But 63 00:03:56.834 --> 00:03:59.875 in in in a ship, you've got 3 bunks, 1 on top of the other. 64 00:03:59.875 --> 00:04:02.920 So if you're on the top bunk, you've got no hope. But it is definitely 65 00:04:02.920 --> 00:04:06.680 drilled into you in those days that, it was up it was 66 00:04:06.760 --> 00:04:10.200 there was no tolerance. And Oh, absolutely. When when I 67 00:04:10.200 --> 00:04:13.465 joined, literally, the first thing you do when you walk through the gates of Raleigh 68 00:04:13.465 --> 00:04:17.165 is you go in, you get, sat down in this big sort of group 69 00:04:17.544 --> 00:04:21.349 room, and you get handed your contract to sign. And in the contract, it 70 00:04:21.349 --> 00:04:24.789 says that, homosexuality is illegal. So when I'm 71 00:04:24.789 --> 00:04:28.535 there, 18 years old, I only turned 18 about 72 00:04:28.535 --> 00:04:32.134 3 weeks previous to joining. And I was I 73 00:04:32.134 --> 00:04:35.574 thought maybe I might be gay, but I wasn't sure. I'd never had any 74 00:04:35.574 --> 00:04:39.229 experience to actually confirm that. And and having spent 75 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:42.969 all my school years being bullied quite a lot, what I wanted was 76 00:04:42.969 --> 00:04:46.490 that sort of belonging that you can get as part of the 77 00:04:46.490 --> 00:04:50.044 military. I wanted to belong to that tribe. I wanted to serve my country. And 78 00:04:50.044 --> 00:04:53.884 so any thought of being gay was then straight 79 00:04:53.884 --> 00:04:57.390 off the table. That was not gonna be happening to me. So I, 80 00:04:57.390 --> 00:05:00.510 I, it is right in front of you the moment you walk through the door 81 00:05:00.510 --> 00:05:03.650 that that is not something you can be. But how did you 82 00:05:04.270 --> 00:05:07.875 cope? Yeah. I mean, you've got some more depth to the story, which you can 83 00:05:07.875 --> 00:05:11.335 tell me in a minute. But, so how how did you manage to 84 00:05:12.275 --> 00:05:16.110 suppress, repress? Because you you you you mentioned just now that you you you 85 00:05:16.110 --> 00:05:19.870 just, well, realize that sense of self later in life. So 86 00:05:19.870 --> 00:05:23.155 around the age of 18 is probably just where you start to figure stuff out. 87 00:05:23.475 --> 00:05:27.235 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, as I said, it it just I just wanted to 88 00:05:27.235 --> 00:05:30.650 serve my country. I wanted to belong. I wanted to be in that 89 00:05:30.889 --> 00:05:34.250 camaraderie that you can get in nursery because I'd 90 00:05:34.250 --> 00:05:38.030 just experienced that as part of my school life at all. 91 00:05:38.725 --> 00:05:42.245 So I just threw myself into the 92 00:05:42.245 --> 00:05:45.225 training and I threw myself into the work and I was, 93 00:05:45.900 --> 00:05:49.580 I did really well at it. I was part of the last class of women 94 00:05:49.580 --> 00:05:53.259 to be trained separately from men in the Rennes. And so I had the 95 00:05:53.259 --> 00:05:56.915 choice whether to volunteer for C or not, and I absolutely I was 96 00:05:56.995 --> 00:06:00.835 yes. That was an absolute yes for me straight away. So I then 97 00:06:00.835 --> 00:06:04.620 did my secondary training as a radio operator, HMS Mercury, and I was 98 00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:08.140 picked to be class leader of that class. And that was the first ever 99 00:06:08.140 --> 00:06:11.840 mixed sex class that went through HMS Mercury. 100 00:06:12.375 --> 00:06:16.055 So going through that as the class leader was a huge step up for an 101 00:06:16.055 --> 00:06:19.815 18 year old who was, you know, very unsure of herself at that point 102 00:06:19.815 --> 00:06:23.600 in time. But I mean, what an opportunity. And again, I did, 103 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:26.640 I did well in my schooling as far as that was concerned, and then came 104 00:06:26.640 --> 00:06:30.155 back to the IC training and went off to join HMS 105 00:06:30.215 --> 00:06:34.055 Cornwall, a Type 22 Batch 3 frigate, as the first group 106 00:06:34.055 --> 00:06:37.690 of women to go on board that ship, which was a hugely 107 00:06:37.690 --> 00:06:41.530 lucky draft actually. The other people in my class from Mercury 108 00:06:41.530 --> 00:06:44.970 went to, I think it was ARC Royal and then Vistimel, so our 109 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:48.305 aircraft carriers, And they didn't go, huge 110 00:06:48.845 --> 00:06:52.465 distance, but with the Cornwall, we did our basic operational 111 00:06:52.525 --> 00:06:56.070 sea training. And then we were lucky enough to do things like West Indies guard 112 00:06:56.070 --> 00:06:59.590 ships, so I got to see the Caribbean and 113 00:06:59.590 --> 00:07:03.415 America and so forth. So I was at risk extremely lucky with my draft. 114 00:07:03.575 --> 00:07:07.255 What what year is it when, Wim were finally 115 00:07:07.255 --> 00:07:11.015 allowed to to leave the show and get on a on a 116 00:07:11.015 --> 00:07:14.659 ship? There? What what year was that? It was basically 1990, which was when I 117 00:07:14.659 --> 00:07:18.340 joined. So I 1990? It it's 1919, 91 they were 118 00:07:18.340 --> 00:07:21.905 starting to put 1 on board ship. So Cornwall was were going through a 119 00:07:21.905 --> 00:07:25.525 refit as I came to the end of my secondary training. And so 120 00:07:25.905 --> 00:07:29.660 beginning of 91, I think it was, that I joined, 121 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:33.400 and, yeah, we were the first ones to to join. It was quite quite a 122 00:07:33.400 --> 00:07:37.205 thing with a lot of resistance to having women on board. So 123 00:07:37.205 --> 00:07:40.165 there's a lot of kind of overcome. I remember the, 124 00:07:41.044 --> 00:07:44.805 stuff in the press, the, the first sea lord will say this will 125 00:07:44.805 --> 00:07:48.570 never work and all this kind of stuff. It was kind of this is and 126 00:07:48.570 --> 00:07:51.470 then the ships weren't geared up for 127 00:07:52.330 --> 00:07:55.634 different people, were they? They were kind of, you're a float. You just get you 128 00:07:55.634 --> 00:07:59.474 just pile on top of each other. Suddenly, uh-oh, women, how to be 129 00:07:59.715 --> 00:08:03.264 they don't know how to communicate adequately with the languages. 130 00:08:04.430 --> 00:08:08.270 Yeah. Yeah. Well, you end up either being bullied. You 131 00:08:08.270 --> 00:08:11.765 get caught split, turtle, bike, 132 00:08:11.765 --> 00:08:15.605 whatever, or you you you kind of become one of the lads. It's sort of 133 00:08:15.605 --> 00:08:18.565 a little bit of both of those two things. So you end up having to 134 00:08:18.565 --> 00:08:22.290 try and hold your own space if you can. And there's somebody who'd 135 00:08:22.290 --> 00:08:25.970 been bullied and and was not particularly confident in their own 136 00:08:25.970 --> 00:08:29.430 self. So that was quite a difficult situation to go through. But I absolutely 137 00:08:29.810 --> 00:08:33.534 loved being on board ship. It was brilliant. And again, I 138 00:08:33.534 --> 00:08:37.054 was good at what I was doing. So I really enjoyed it a lot. Did 139 00:08:37.054 --> 00:08:40.195 you find over time, you were able to get respect? 140 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.680 I'd like to say yes. I unfortunately didn't quite find 141 00:08:45.680 --> 00:08:49.300 the sort of camaraderie that I was hoping for when I joined. 142 00:08:49.395 --> 00:08:53.155 I I loved what I was doing, but I I 143 00:08:53.155 --> 00:08:56.839 did end up in pretty much every place. I would get some 144 00:08:56.839 --> 00:08:59.740 kind of bullying. Like, for example, on board the ship, 145 00:09:00.920 --> 00:09:04.600 they in West Indies guardship, they put together, like, a a 146 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:08.444 local radio station. So, you know, somebody playing records 147 00:09:08.444 --> 00:09:12.285 or or whatever and doing a bit of DJing in between. And they 148 00:09:12.285 --> 00:09:15.970 did a pretend, what's it called, request for me, 149 00:09:16.350 --> 00:09:19.710 and they said, and here's one for Emma Riley, and it was, Tammy 150 00:09:19.710 --> 00:09:23.415 Wynette's Stand by Your Man. Of course, the first line is 151 00:09:23.475 --> 00:09:27.075 sometimes it's hard to be a woman and you just think, oh, 152 00:09:27.075 --> 00:09:30.675 goodness sake. And then later on when I was at, I think it was H. 153 00:09:30.675 --> 00:09:34.380 W. Cochrane. So I was doing guard at a communications center and just 154 00:09:34.380 --> 00:09:37.980 outside HMS Cochrane. And and in in the women's 155 00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:41.805 block, there's a kinda in outboard. So everybody's, 156 00:09:41.805 --> 00:09:44.765 you know, you've got a little peg and you put it in out, whatever, and 157 00:09:44.765 --> 00:09:48.160 you have your name next to it. And every day I would come back to 158 00:09:48.160 --> 00:09:51.920 find the w from my WRO, as we were called then. So Wren 159 00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:55.455 Radio operator, the w would be wiped out every day, every day. Just 160 00:09:55.455 --> 00:09:59.215 little microaggressions that you'd call them that. I didn't know what it was at that 161 00:09:59.215 --> 00:10:02.355 point. It just made me feel outsider, 162 00:10:02.575 --> 00:10:06.140 basically. So there were some good people, but there was 163 00:10:06.140 --> 00:10:09.980 also that kind of stuff going on as well. Now all radio operators 164 00:10:09.980 --> 00:10:13.584 are just radio operators. There's there's no distinction now, is there? And Yeah. 165 00:10:13.584 --> 00:10:17.024 Exactly. I mean, in fact, the w officially got 166 00:10:17.024 --> 00:10:20.810 dropped not long after I left, I think. I'm not quite 167 00:10:20.810 --> 00:10:24.650 sure of the date. Yeah. Well, yeah, I I remember the similar sort of thing 168 00:10:24.650 --> 00:10:28.330 when I was in the air force around, the rafts WAFs, 169 00:10:28.330 --> 00:10:32.035 and and it was almost like 170 00:10:32.815 --> 00:10:36.335 we have to allow women in, but they don't do anything serious. You know, it 171 00:10:36.335 --> 00:10:39.830 was they were great in the war, code breaking, doing all the things that we've 172 00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:43.670 ever celebrated for, but actually, oh, actually firing 173 00:10:43.670 --> 00:10:47.235 a gun. Not sure about that. Oh, no. Rifle. Yeah. Well, that's this is why 174 00:10:47.235 --> 00:10:50.375 they were calling us, turtles. Because if 175 00:10:51.475 --> 00:10:54.855 you're a turtle, because if you're on your back, you fucked. Excuse me. 176 00:10:55.510 --> 00:10:59.190 That's the sort of level that they were at at that point in time. I'm 177 00:10:59.190 --> 00:11:02.730 sure it's a lot better now, but I'm sure also there are plenty 178 00:11:03.110 --> 00:11:06.935 that are just as like that nowadays. Never heard that slang before. 179 00:11:06.935 --> 00:11:10.615 That's that's awful, isn't it? Yeah. It's not nice. So 180 00:11:10.615 --> 00:11:14.250 you you you obviously had your your naval career, and you were enjoying it. 181 00:11:14.250 --> 00:11:17.610 You were good at what you did. You were presumably getting 182 00:11:17.610 --> 00:11:21.210 promoted, seen as excellent in what you were doing. I was doing 183 00:11:21.210 --> 00:11:25.005 doing quite well. But, yeah, fast forward. So that was 1990 I 184 00:11:25.005 --> 00:11:28.384 joined. So fast forward to 1993, I I 185 00:11:28.845 --> 00:11:32.660 was more sure of my sexuality. Basically, I sort 186 00:11:32.660 --> 00:11:36.200 of needed to confirm in my own head what I thought I might be. 187 00:11:36.580 --> 00:11:40.020 And so one evening I went out in London on my 188 00:11:40.020 --> 00:11:43.785 own with nobody else. Nobody knew I was going to do. And I basically 189 00:11:43.845 --> 00:11:47.625 went to a gay bar and got picked up 190 00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:51.339 sort of, I kissed a girl and I liked it. So it was like, 191 00:11:51.339 --> 00:11:55.020 okay, alright, so let's file that away. I'm still not intending to 192 00:11:55.020 --> 00:11:57.725 do anything about it. I'm still, you know, completely 193 00:11:58.585 --> 00:12:02.185 no no relationships, nothing like that. I'm still absolutely focused on 194 00:12:02.185 --> 00:12:05.785 wanting to serve and stay in the Royal Navy. But 195 00:12:05.785 --> 00:12:09.450 later on in 93, my father got 196 00:12:09.450 --> 00:12:13.050 really, really ill. So then my father's having 197 00:12:13.050 --> 00:12:16.495 quadruple bypass operation. He's having blackouts. I'm trying to support my mum 198 00:12:16.495 --> 00:12:20.015 going down to see him going in and out of hospital as that's all 199 00:12:20.015 --> 00:12:22.675 happening. And I'd found it 200 00:12:23.590 --> 00:12:27.430 harder and harder to deal with the sort of small bullying, but 201 00:12:27.430 --> 00:12:31.190 also to just hide who I was in my own self. 202 00:12:31.190 --> 00:12:32.745 It becomes incredibly stressful. 203 00:12:40.665 --> 00:12:44.290 I is huge. So so by the time I got to the 204 00:12:44.290 --> 00:12:48.130 sort of it must have been September 1993, I was 205 00:12:48.130 --> 00:12:51.395 in a not a great mental state. So 206 00:12:52.015 --> 00:12:55.795 I was working in the communication center in HMS Faz Lane up in Scotland, 207 00:12:56.015 --> 00:12:59.850 the submarine base. And one day, myself 208 00:12:59.850 --> 00:13:02.890 and the person I was sharing a room with in the block, we just went 209 00:13:02.890 --> 00:13:06.645 out for a drink in Helensborough and I 210 00:13:06.945 --> 00:13:10.385 we'd we'd had a few drinks. I thought she was my friend. And so I 211 00:13:10.385 --> 00:13:13.125 said, I think I might be gay somewhere in the conversation. 212 00:13:13.905 --> 00:13:17.550 And she was pretty, supportive at that point. So I had 213 00:13:17.550 --> 00:13:21.089 this really kind of euphoric moment where I thought, okay, I've said it out loud 214 00:13:21.310 --> 00:13:23.975 and it's going to be okay. I don't have to do anything about it. I've 215 00:13:23.975 --> 00:13:27.255 said, I'm not going to do anything. I still want to serve. I understand the 216 00:13:27.255 --> 00:13:31.035 rules kind of thing. And so I kind of came out of that evening 217 00:13:31.255 --> 00:13:34.700 a little bit on a high, if that makes sense. And then it was, 218 00:13:36.140 --> 00:13:39.600 yeah. Next morning, get up, get dressed, get downstairs. You're under arrest. 219 00:13:39.740 --> 00:13:41.567 And what she'd done of course is phone up the military police and dubbed me 220 00:13:41.567 --> 00:13:42.685 in for being gay to them. So I had the SOB. I had Yeah. 221 00:13:49.065 --> 00:13:50.900 Especially when you're asleep and they wake you up like that. Yeah. I was Yeah. 222 00:13:50.900 --> 00:13:54.340 Especially when you're asleep and they wake you up like that. Yeah. I was 223 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:58.180 terrified. I mean, because you know the rules. So you know if they're 224 00:13:58.180 --> 00:14:01.774 going to be able to prove that you are going or that even that they 225 00:14:02.394 --> 00:14:06.154 prove enough to themselves that they think you are going. That's 226 00:14:06.154 --> 00:14:09.100 it. It's all over. And this is all I've ever wanted to do since the 227 00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:12.460 age of about 13, 14. That's what I decided I was going to do with 228 00:14:12.460 --> 00:14:16.220 my life. So, yeah, they, they, I got 229 00:14:16.220 --> 00:14:19.955 up, I got downstairs and I got dressed. And then I was interviewed for, I 230 00:14:19.955 --> 00:14:23.315 don't know how many hours, 3, 4 hours or something. You know, the old tape 231 00:14:23.315 --> 00:14:27.130 recorder interviewed 2 SOB officers and a chief friend 232 00:14:27.130 --> 00:14:30.750 who was supposedly my support during this interview. 233 00:14:31.529 --> 00:14:35.315 And, I mean, I can't remember the questions they 234 00:14:35.315 --> 00:14:38.915 asked, but it was just continuous pressure to admit that you were 235 00:14:38.915 --> 00:14:42.740 gay. And at one point I just got so upset that they 236 00:14:42.740 --> 00:14:46.020 stopped the tape and said, okay, let's have a 15 minute break and you can 237 00:14:46.020 --> 00:14:49.435 calm down. And I must have said something to that chief friend 238 00:14:49.835 --> 00:14:53.615 in the break that was incriminating in some way because 239 00:14:53.675 --> 00:14:57.250 the moment I remember the moment the SIB came back in the 240 00:14:57.250 --> 00:15:01.010 room, and they turned on the tape, and the g friend was like, 241 00:15:01.010 --> 00:15:04.050 right. During the break, Emmer Riley said this, that, and the other. And you just 242 00:15:04.050 --> 00:15:07.135 think that's it. She's not my support. I am completely 243 00:15:07.755 --> 00:15:11.595 alone in this. It's just a joke that they have 244 00:15:11.595 --> 00:15:15.300 somebody there to supposedly support you. Then none of nobody's 245 00:15:15.300 --> 00:15:18.820 interested in that. They just wanna get that conviction. So after 246 00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:22.415 that, they take you up to your room to go and search through all your 247 00:15:22.415 --> 00:15:26.035 belongings. And Looking for what? What are they looking for? 248 00:15:26.255 --> 00:15:29.670 Well, this is the thing. Being gay. Oh, oh, 249 00:15:29.670 --> 00:15:32.970 well. You see, you say that in a joking way, but literally, 250 00:15:33.430 --> 00:15:36.985 we're standing outside the door, these 2 SAB officers and this 251 00:15:37.464 --> 00:15:41.225 gnarkey chief friend. And one of the officers says, so do 252 00:15:41.225 --> 00:15:45.065 you have any, electrical equipment? I'm 253 00:15:45.065 --> 00:15:48.639 thinking, what? So I to my credit, I said something 254 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:52.320 along the lines of, well, if you mean dildos or vibrators, no, but please do 255 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.795 search the rest of the block. I'm sure you'll find some. And thanks for how 256 00:15:55.795 --> 00:15:59.334 how on earth is that in any way proof of lesbianism 257 00:15:59.955 --> 00:16:03.795 that you might have some electrical equipment, especially in a women's block. 258 00:16:03.795 --> 00:16:07.330 I mean, really. But yeah, they, they went 259 00:16:07.330 --> 00:16:11.090 through everything and actually evidence wise about the 260 00:16:11.090 --> 00:16:14.704 only things they got were, I had a few letters to a pen pal 261 00:16:14.704 --> 00:16:18.385 who was outside the Royal Navy, where I had spoken about the fact that I 262 00:16:18.385 --> 00:16:22.165 thought I might be gay. So, okay, there's a piece of real evidence. Right? 263 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:26.060 The other two pieces of evidence that I remember are, 264 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:30.545 the suede album cover. And I don't know if you 265 00:16:30.545 --> 00:16:34.305 remember the first suede album cover, but it was basically 2 people kissing, a 266 00:16:34.305 --> 00:16:38.030 sort of a CPF photo of 2 people kissing. And there was this 267 00:16:38.110 --> 00:16:41.810 big debate on at the time about, is it a man and woman, 2 women, 268 00:16:42.270 --> 00:16:45.970 2 men, who, who is this? And so they took that as evidence 269 00:16:46.165 --> 00:16:49.045 Now, as it happens, it is actually 2 women, one of whom is in a 270 00:16:49.045 --> 00:16:52.805 wheelchair, but nobody really knew that at that point in time. So a 271 00:16:52.805 --> 00:16:56.570 Suede album cover was, was evidence. The best 272 00:16:56.570 --> 00:16:59.630 one was that they confiscated my Julian Clary 273 00:17:00.170 --> 00:17:03.865 mincing to her video. Because again, anybody who 274 00:17:03.865 --> 00:17:06.765 watches Julien Clary obviously must be gay. 275 00:17:07.304 --> 00:17:10.905 Right? I laugh about this now. At the time, it 276 00:17:10.905 --> 00:17:14.440 was so humiliating and so terrifying. And, and 277 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.800 actually what they were looking for is not only proof that I was gay, but 278 00:17:17.800 --> 00:17:21.365 they were looking for names. Yeah. They wanted other people, didn't they? They they 279 00:17:21.365 --> 00:17:25.204 wanted other people. Witch hunt it was such a witch hunt era. And 280 00:17:25.204 --> 00:17:28.910 having spoken to other veterans now in the last couple 281 00:17:28.910 --> 00:17:32.130 of years, who've gone through similar similar 282 00:17:32.350 --> 00:17:36.110 experiences, I mean, I can tell you stories like, there was one poor 283 00:17:36.110 --> 00:17:39.845 gentleman I I spoke to who he'd been thrown out because of 284 00:17:39.845 --> 00:17:43.605 his sexuality, and they'd found another military person's 285 00:17:43.605 --> 00:17:47.450 name and his belongings, gone after this chap and this poor 286 00:17:47.450 --> 00:17:51.050 chap that they'd gone after committed suicide. So this man has been 287 00:17:51.050 --> 00:17:54.215 thrown out. He's lost his livelihood, his life, his identity, 288 00:17:54.615 --> 00:17:58.135 etcetera, etcetera. And now has to not only deal with the shame of 289 00:17:58.135 --> 00:18:01.960 that, but also carry the guilt of that other 290 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.480 man's death on his conscience for the rest of his life. It's the mental 291 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.540 cruelty is astounding. 292 00:18:09.524 --> 00:18:13.365 So you'd find out what the motivation was for your 293 00:18:13.365 --> 00:18:17.205 friend to, was there a motivation? Was there a 294 00:18:17.205 --> 00:18:20.190 kind of a I I never spoke to her again. 295 00:18:20.890 --> 00:18:24.490 They moved me out of the the room with it, of 296 00:18:24.490 --> 00:18:28.175 course, but still in the same block. Of course, I'm still in the same base. 297 00:18:28.175 --> 00:18:31.695 I'm still eating in the same mess, though I'm not working in the same place 298 00:18:31.695 --> 00:18:35.460 as I'd say. Everybody knows what's going on, and pretty 299 00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:38.900 much everybody keeps their distance from you. There were a couple of 300 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:42.375 people who were who were really kind to me that I 301 00:18:42.375 --> 00:18:46.215 remember. But most people don't want to be tied with the same brush. They 302 00:18:46.215 --> 00:18:49.914 wanna, you know, keep that distance. But no, I never spoke to 303 00:18:50.230 --> 00:18:53.610 that person to find out why they did what they did. In fact, 304 00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:57.909 as I've done a few bits of speaking, particularly in 305 00:18:57.909 --> 00:19:01.545 schools actually, they ask so what would you do if you ever met that 306 00:19:01.545 --> 00:19:05.225 person again? How do you feel about them? And I I kind of vacillate 307 00:19:05.225 --> 00:19:08.925 between, on the one hand, you know, being generous, 308 00:19:09.450 --> 00:19:13.130 they were following the rules. They did what they were supposed to 309 00:19:13.130 --> 00:19:16.730 do, which is tell the military police that there was a 310 00:19:16.730 --> 00:19:20.315 gay in their midst, terrifying as that may be. 311 00:19:20.934 --> 00:19:24.295 And on the other hand, you just wonder what threat was I 312 00:19:24.295 --> 00:19:28.049 seriously? Supposedly a national security threat because if 313 00:19:28.049 --> 00:19:30.929 if I'm gay, then I can be blackmailed. Well, the only reason you can be 314 00:19:30.929 --> 00:19:34.745 blackmailed was because you've got a ruling place. You're not supposed to be gay. 315 00:19:34.905 --> 00:19:38.425 And all this nonsense about gay people being able to, in 316 00:19:38.425 --> 00:19:41.085 positions of power what's the word? 317 00:19:42.899 --> 00:19:46.519 Make a junior do their will, you know, 318 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:50.398 bring them into gay. Well, coerced them. Thank you. That's word I was looking for. 319 00:19:50.398 --> 00:19:53.865 Convert. The worst that means they convert. Yeah. Correct. Gay gay world. 320 00:19:53.865 --> 00:19:57.544 Right? It's an utter nonsense because when you're looking at the 321 00:19:57.544 --> 00:20:01.260 differences between males and females, you know, there's just as much 322 00:20:01.260 --> 00:20:05.039 chance a male officer or a female officer will do the same to a junior 323 00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:08.905 of whatever sex as there is if they're gay. It it the whole thing is 324 00:20:08.905 --> 00:20:12.424 an absolute nonsense. Yeah. I I was, I've also 325 00:20:12.424 --> 00:20:15.565 experienced the SIB for for different reasons at the time. 326 00:20:16.040 --> 00:20:19.800 And as a result of someone reporting me 327 00:20:19.800 --> 00:20:23.415 for something, when and I won't go into that in on this podcast. I've probably 328 00:20:23.415 --> 00:20:26.215 done it on a previous one, but, yeah, I I also was interviewed, 329 00:20:27.895 --> 00:20:31.570 with 2 scary men, basically, pointing, 330 00:20:31.570 --> 00:20:35.030 shouting, stomping their fists on the table Yeah. Telling me, 331 00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:38.690 confess now. It'd be much easier. We're gonna have you in the end if you 332 00:20:38.690 --> 00:20:41.775 don't get it over and done with. You know, if you just if you just 333 00:20:41.775 --> 00:20:44.495 come out with it now, this will all be over, and we can move on. 334 00:20:44.495 --> 00:20:48.015 It's like Yeah. There's a bunch of amount of pressure and bullying to make 335 00:20:48.015 --> 00:20:51.760 you conformally. And I was only I was 18 at the 336 00:20:51.760 --> 00:20:55.380 time. I was kinda scared. You know, I'd done something wrong. Yeah. I had. 337 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.985 Like, you I knew it was wrong. It's part of those 10 338 00:20:58.985 --> 00:21:02.505 rules you shan't do when you're in the forces. And Yeah. 339 00:21:02.745 --> 00:21:06.345 And, again, the blackmail and the all these sort of things and people feeling like 340 00:21:06.345 --> 00:21:09.929 that. And, yeah, it's it's a scary time, isn't it? And 341 00:21:09.929 --> 00:21:13.450 I I ended up I ended up exiting the forces 342 00:21:13.450 --> 00:21:17.115 via a little town in in Essex called Cofdister. So I 343 00:21:17.115 --> 00:21:20.955 spent a few days, which is the, Oh. That that's the that's the 344 00:21:20.955 --> 00:21:24.735 military prison or the Yes. Place you exit the military if you've been convicted. 345 00:21:24.794 --> 00:21:28.370 So, yeah, I I got, charged 346 00:21:28.590 --> 00:21:32.429 and taken in front of the station commander, hat off, march in, get, told 347 00:21:32.429 --> 00:21:35.655 you of punishment, walk out. I didn't elect the court martial. I was, 348 00:21:36.054 --> 00:21:39.815 I thought it's not gonna get any better than this, so just get get rid 349 00:21:39.815 --> 00:21:43.575 of me. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a tough time when you're that young when 350 00:21:43.575 --> 00:21:46.770 you're, yeah. Okay. I'm I'm not trying to sit here and say I've I was 351 00:21:46.770 --> 00:21:50.390 innocent. I on the scale of things, what I did was not 352 00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:54.175 huge. I mean, what you did was with you you kissed 1 girl and said 353 00:21:54.255 --> 00:21:57.935 Well, yeah. And that's and that's that's that's the extent. Literally nothing else. 354 00:21:57.935 --> 00:22:01.455 Yeah. I I think it that that's the thing that seems to 355 00:22:01.455 --> 00:22:05.100 mark particularly the the cases about against 356 00:22:05.100 --> 00:22:08.860 gays in military is the the mental cruelty and so 357 00:22:08.860 --> 00:22:11.580 forth that goes with it. I mean, for me, there was all of that that 358 00:22:11.580 --> 00:22:15.054 had happened, but then then they sent me home to tell my parents. That 359 00:22:15.054 --> 00:22:18.654 was that was pretty horrific. A forced coming out. 360 00:22:18.654 --> 00:22:22.350 So they sent me home, And, you know, I have to tell 361 00:22:22.350 --> 00:22:25.650 my parents that not only am I going to likely 362 00:22:26.590 --> 00:22:30.050 exit the Royal Navy, and they are so proud of me serving, 363 00:22:30.404 --> 00:22:33.865 you know. But also that I'm gay, and I'm absolutely terrified. 364 00:22:34.404 --> 00:22:36.825 Absolutely terrified. I I remember, 365 00:22:37.900 --> 00:22:41.179 viscerally the the room where I was sitting when I was trying to tell my 366 00:22:41.179 --> 00:22:45.020 parents all about this. And and I spoke to my mom, you know, in the 367 00:22:45.020 --> 00:22:48.555 last, again, in the last couple of years and say, how how was 368 00:22:48.555 --> 00:22:52.395 I? Because there's only so much you can hold on to from these 369 00:22:52.395 --> 00:22:56.230 days. And she said, it took me about 5 or 6 hours 370 00:22:56.230 --> 00:22:59.450 to stop crying long enough to actually tell them what was going on, 371 00:22:59.990 --> 00:23:03.475 which yeah. Horrific. So 372 00:23:03.775 --> 00:23:07.615 I I go back up to the base and survived the last couple of 373 00:23:07.615 --> 00:23:10.575 weeks or however long it was. And then you go up to captain's table, and 374 00:23:10.575 --> 00:23:14.350 it's your judgment is given, and it's discharged. Sure. 375 00:23:14.350 --> 00:23:17.390 Your services are no longer required. And they, 376 00:23:18.554 --> 00:23:22.255 I've got one of those. Yeah. They're redundant. May may redundant, basically. 377 00:23:22.635 --> 00:23:26.480 Basically, yes. So, I mean, in many ways, I my my 378 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:30.180 exit was a lucky one because it was an honorable discharge, quote unquote. 379 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:33.975 I didn't get the red writing at the top for dishonorable discharge. So that didn't 380 00:23:33.975 --> 00:23:37.655 affect my future employment or anything like that. As far as that 381 00:23:37.655 --> 00:23:41.420 part of it is concerned. I mean, they made me sign a piece 382 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:45.200 of paper to say that I wasn't going to challenge the decision. 383 00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:49.180 And so I did sign it, but I said the only reason I'm not 384 00:23:49.180 --> 00:23:53.005 challenging the decision now is because my father is so ill. Because, again, 385 00:23:53.005 --> 00:23:56.685 you gotta remember, my father's just had a quadruple bypass, so 386 00:23:56.685 --> 00:24:00.145 he's not in the best of health as all of this stuff is going on. 387 00:24:00.830 --> 00:24:04.670 And then that was it, 26th November 1993, handy 388 00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:08.510 kit bag, which I basically unceremoniously dumped it 389 00:24:08.510 --> 00:24:12.325 all on the on the quartermaster's floor as I left. And 390 00:24:12.325 --> 00:24:15.685 I kept everything that wasn't on my kit list. So I have a really random 391 00:24:15.685 --> 00:24:19.330 assortment of bits and pieces. Like, I think I've got a tie, a 392 00:24:19.330 --> 00:24:23.010 shirt, a cap, and a greatcoat. The greatcoat, I 393 00:24:23.010 --> 00:24:26.845 only wore for the first time last year to march with fighting 394 00:24:26.845 --> 00:24:30.465 with pride to the cenotaph as part of the remembrance day parade. 395 00:24:31.164 --> 00:24:34.540 That's that's how long it's taken me to even put that on. 396 00:24:34.780 --> 00:24:38.540 So, yeah, it was it was pretty horrific. And then I go 397 00:24:38.540 --> 00:24:42.300 home. My parents collected me. My parents hated what was going 398 00:24:42.300 --> 00:24:45.924 on to me, and they absolutely hated how they were treated at the 399 00:24:45.924 --> 00:24:49.465 gates because they were totally given the silent treatment, 400 00:24:49.684 --> 00:24:53.370 like personal non grata. They didn't want anything to do with my parents. And there 401 00:24:53.370 --> 00:24:56.890