WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.555 --> 00:00:11.335 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.395 --> 00:00:15.110 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.349 --> 00:00:18.789 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.789 --> 00:00:22.410 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.110 --> 00:00:26.685 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where 6 00:00:26.685 --> 00:00:30.285 everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not 7 00:00:30.285 --> 00:00:33.850 alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.850 --> 00:00:37.289 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.289 --> 00:00:41.050 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.050 --> 00:00:44.855 in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:44.855 --> 00:00:48.695 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.695 --> 00:00:52.500 inspire action together. Don't forget, you 13 00:00:52.500 --> 00:00:55.880 can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 14 00:00:59.220 --> 00:01:02.825 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 15 00:01:03.525 --> 00:01:07.205 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 16 00:01:07.205 --> 00:01:10.820 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 17 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:17.380 And today is episode 123 18 00:01:18.744 --> 00:01:22.185 with the title Cultural Intelligence for 19 00:01:22.185 --> 00:01:26.024 Harnessing Diversity. And I have the absolute honor and 20 00:01:26.024 --> 00:01:29.820 privilege to welcome Ritika Wadhwa. Ritika 21 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.500 is an ethnic minority, immigrant, female founder, 22 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:37.825 and CEO of Prabhaav Global that specialises in using 23 00:01:37.825 --> 00:01:41.125 the transformative power of cultural intelligence 24 00:01:41.345 --> 00:01:44.700 for impactful leadership. When I asked Ritika to describe 25 00:01:45.259 --> 00:01:48.860 superpower, she said resilience. Hello, 26 00:01:48.860 --> 00:01:52.479 Ritika. Welcome to the show. Oh, thank you, Joanne. 27 00:01:52.539 --> 00:01:56.045 The honor is absolutely, completely, and 28 00:01:56.045 --> 00:01:59.645 100% mine. You know what a big fangirl I am of 29 00:01:59.645 --> 00:02:03.460 Joanne Lockwood. Oh, going bashful now and so. 30 00:02:04.720 --> 00:02:08.560 We met each other recently at a Professional Speaking Association meeting, but 31 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:12.185 also we caught up at the Culture Pioneer Awards, didn't we, with, 32 00:02:13.445 --> 00:02:17.285 HR's own Sift. That was a a great evening, wasn't it? It was. 33 00:02:17.285 --> 00:02:21.070 It was. I think I've well, I've I've been fangirling you from afar for a 34 00:02:21.070 --> 00:02:24.430 while. And so it was I've actually seen you in a lot 35 00:02:24.430 --> 00:02:28.110 of forums, but obviously you only noticed me at the 36 00:02:28.110 --> 00:02:31.855 PSA first and then at the HR zone. So I think our paths have crossed 37 00:02:31.855 --> 00:02:35.615 several times before that. And so meeting you in person was 38 00:02:35.615 --> 00:02:39.220 brilliant, but also being asked to be featured as a guest on your 39 00:02:39.220 --> 00:02:42.920 podcast is an absolute honor. Thank you. Thank you. 40 00:02:43.220 --> 00:02:46.595 Pratika then, tell me, cultural intelligence, 41 00:02:47.055 --> 00:02:50.755 how do we harness it for diversity? Tell us more about CQ. 42 00:02:52.335 --> 00:02:55.700 Oh, right. So where do I 43 00:02:55.700 --> 00:02:59.540 start? Tell us more about CQ. CQ CQ is 44 00:02:59.540 --> 00:03:02.865 cultural intelligence. Cultural intelligence 45 00:03:03.005 --> 00:03:06.685 technically is defined as the ability to work with 46 00:03:06.685 --> 00:03:10.370 people that are different from us. It is a capability 47 00:03:10.670 --> 00:03:14.430 that we can all build and scale very much 48 00:03:14.430 --> 00:03:17.915 like emotional intelligence, and it 49 00:03:17.915 --> 00:03:21.055 helps us to work in multicultural situations, 50 00:03:21.595 --> 00:03:25.135 to work with people that are different from us, to work and navigate 51 00:03:25.355 --> 00:03:28.940 situations that might not be familiar to us. There's 52 00:03:28.940 --> 00:03:32.720 IQ, there's EQ, and there's CQ. CQ is relatively 53 00:03:33.340 --> 00:03:37.125 the new baby on the block as we call it because it's been around 20 54 00:03:37.125 --> 00:03:40.965 plus years, but only in the last 12 or so years has 55 00:03:40.965 --> 00:03:44.500 there been a practical application to cultural intelligence. Cultural 56 00:03:44.500 --> 00:03:48.260 intelligence, very much like emotional intelligence, is formed of 4 57 00:03:48.260 --> 00:03:51.860 capabilities. The first capability is the CQ 58 00:03:51.860 --> 00:03:55.444 drive, the why, there's CQ 59 00:03:55.444 --> 00:03:59.065 knowledge, the what, CQ strategy, 60 00:03:59.765 --> 00:04:03.370 the how, and CQ action when you actually do 61 00:04:03.370 --> 00:04:07.069 something about all those capabilities. And so 62 00:04:07.209 --> 00:04:10.905 what cultural intelligence does is hold people accountable, 63 00:04:11.205 --> 00:04:14.885 hold leaders accountable for behavior change. Because I've seen a lot of 64 00:04:14.885 --> 00:04:18.180 frameworks, very, very interested in the field of 65 00:04:18.500 --> 00:04:21.320 diversity, equity, inclusion, personally and professionally. 66 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:25.560 And what I was most interested in is to hold 67 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:29.164 people, leaders more specifically, accountable 68 00:04:29.625 --> 00:04:33.465 from moving from intent to impact. And this is the framework that I 69 00:04:33.465 --> 00:04:37.290 thought absolutely does that because a lot of training courses 70 00:04:37.350 --> 00:04:40.950 out there and a lot of forms of intelligence, whether that's cultural 71 00:04:40.950 --> 00:04:44.745 competency, cultural awareness, whatever you wanna call it, sit in 72 00:04:44.745 --> 00:04:48.585 the CQ knowledge box where you get the information, but you're not really 73 00:04:48.585 --> 00:04:52.420 told what to do with it. For example, unconscious 74 00:04:52.420 --> 00:04:56.180 bias training increases discrimination, yeah, because we're not taught what to 75 00:04:56.180 --> 00:04:59.640 do with that unconscious bias. And this is why a cultural intelligence 76 00:04:59.940 --> 00:05:03.785 framework means you've got the CQ knowledge, but you're being 77 00:05:03.785 --> 00:05:07.545 taught on how to use that knowledge to plan for those interactions that 78 00:05:07.545 --> 00:05:11.280 are different, to be aware of how that interaction is going, 79 00:05:11.280 --> 00:05:15.120 and to self reflect on what about it worked or didn't. And we 80 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.965 know that the best learning comes from that self reflection, comes from 81 00:05:18.965 --> 00:05:22.325 sitting with the discomfort and asking yourself what went right or 82 00:05:22.325 --> 00:05:25.925 wrong. And last but not the least, I was really, really 83 00:05:25.925 --> 00:05:29.620 interested in exploring a body of thought, a framework, 84 00:05:29.760 --> 00:05:33.540 a theory, a research based topic on 85 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:37.405 how can people show up? How can leaders 86 00:05:37.545 --> 00:05:41.325 act in a way that is adaptable? Act in a way that is inclusive? 87 00:05:41.385 --> 00:05:44.850 Act in a way that they are able to work with those 88 00:05:44.850 --> 00:05:48.690 differences in in how they show up as an ally, in how they show up 89 00:05:48.690 --> 00:05:51.590 as a leader, in how they show up as an inclusive leader. 90 00:05:52.314 --> 00:05:56.014 So really that in a nutshell is cultural intelligence. 91 00:05:57.115 --> 00:06:00.750 In a nutshell. In a nutshell. Yeah. I I I studied 92 00:06:00.750 --> 00:06:04.590 CQ a fair bit, and I always think that, as you 93 00:06:04.590 --> 00:06:08.415 say, knowledge you can be have knowledge. You can have 94 00:06:08.415 --> 00:06:12.115 the have the desire to do well. But unless you've got that strategy, 95 00:06:12.895 --> 00:06:16.595 you're likely to be armed and dangerous. Little knowledge 96 00:06:17.230 --> 00:06:20.610 can obviously take you to the wrong direction. When you talk about intent and impact, 97 00:06:21.150 --> 00:06:24.755 I was thinking if we're not careful, our positive intent can actually 98 00:06:24.755 --> 00:06:28.355 be problematic and cause negative impact. So that's where we gotta 99 00:06:28.355 --> 00:06:32.115 really focus on the strategizing how we contextualize what 100 00:06:32.115 --> 00:06:35.919 we've learned, isn't it? Exactly that. And this is why the organization's 101 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:39.759 name is Prabhaav Global, and Prabhaav means 102 00:06:39.819 --> 00:06:43.525 Impact in Hindi. So as much as it's a bit 103 00:06:43.525 --> 00:06:47.365 of a tongue twister, when I started when I started thinking about 104 00:06:47.365 --> 00:06:51.090 the name for my organization, and I came up with the word Prabhaav, 105 00:06:51.090 --> 00:06:54.850 a lot of people with the right intention said, why don't you call 106 00:06:54.850 --> 00:06:58.544 it what it is on the tin? And I said, call it what 107 00:06:58.544 --> 00:07:02.145 it is on the tin for who? For me, Prabhav impact is what speaks to 108 00:07:02.145 --> 00:07:05.665 me in my heart. And that's what I'm really, really 109 00:07:05.665 --> 00:07:09.460 interested in. That impact. Whether the intent is positive or 110 00:07:09.460 --> 00:07:13.220 negative, we can't see it. What we feel is the impact of 111 00:07:13.220 --> 00:07:16.980 those words and actions that turn the intent into impact. And 112 00:07:16.980 --> 00:07:20.775 so that's what I'm interested in, how to use a theory, 113 00:07:20.775 --> 00:07:23.595 a framework that is foolproof 114 00:07:24.455 --> 00:07:27.940 to convert that intent into positive impact. When 115 00:07:27.940 --> 00:07:31.699 I talk to people, one of the biggest things, you know, the the barriers 116 00:07:31.699 --> 00:07:35.355 to inclusion is the fear of getting it wrong. People are 117 00:07:35.355 --> 00:07:39.195 so worried. We, you know, we live in this culture at 118 00:07:39.195 --> 00:07:42.975 the moment, a blame culture. We live in a culture where of 119 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.460 wokeness and antiwokeness and political divide 120 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.699 and people pushing back and people having their privilege challenged. 121 00:07:51.125 --> 00:07:54.665 And people get really scared about saying or doing the wrong thing 122 00:07:54.805 --> 00:07:58.565 for fear of being called out on the internet or getting in the newspaper 123 00:07:58.565 --> 00:08:02.180 for the wrong reasons. So how can CQ, cultural 124 00:08:02.180 --> 00:08:05.240 intelligence, help us navigate through that fear? 125 00:08:06.580 --> 00:08:09.880 I love that question. I want to answer that question 126 00:08:09.940 --> 00:08:13.604 with Martin Luther King's quote. People fail to get 127 00:08:13.604 --> 00:08:16.965 along because they fear each other. They fear each 128 00:08:16.965 --> 00:08:20.620 other because they don't know each other. They don't 129 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:24.140 know each other because they have not communicated with each 130 00:08:24.140 --> 00:08:27.105 other. So in a nutshell, it's all about the communication. 131 00:08:27.885 --> 00:08:31.405 And this is where CQ comes in. It sits at the heart. Cultural 132 00:08:31.405 --> 00:08:34.080 intelligence is about communicating, but 133 00:08:35.040 --> 00:08:38.020 communicating for impact. So what I mean by that is 134 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.185 how do we understand what outcomes we want to 135 00:08:43.185 --> 00:08:46.945 drive from any interaction? And getting to the core of that, 136 00:08:46.945 --> 00:08:50.705 what outcome do I want from my interaction with Joanne when I see 137 00:08:50.705 --> 00:08:54.550 you for the first time or when I'm in a meeting with you. Now what 138 00:08:54.550 --> 00:08:58.390 knowledge do I have about Joanne? Okay. And how am I going to use 139 00:08:58.390 --> 00:09:02.035 this knowledge to get the outcome that I want? 140 00:09:02.095 --> 00:09:05.615 And so with that, what we mean is people fear each other because they don't 141 00:09:05.615 --> 00:09:09.315 know each other, and this fear sits at that if if we can 142 00:09:09.520 --> 00:09:12.820 we can level up and increase the knowledge about the communities, 143 00:09:13.680 --> 00:09:17.345 the groups, those parts of society that we're not familiar with, 144 00:09:17.504 --> 00:09:21.345 that we don't know much about. If we can find ways to gain 145 00:09:21.345 --> 00:09:24.865 knowledge, whether that's through books, listening to podcasts like 146 00:09:24.865 --> 00:09:28.290 yours, being out there, watching movies, having those conversations, 147 00:09:29.550 --> 00:09:32.449 getting to know the human behind those 148 00:09:33.335 --> 00:09:37.175 biases and assumptions that we might have, will that take away that 149 00:09:37.175 --> 00:09:40.795 fear to some extent Jo that not that we are completely confident, 150 00:09:41.380 --> 00:09:45.160 but at least we can come from a place of curiosity. And so cultural 151 00:09:45.220 --> 00:09:48.795 intelligence can really help us. And for this, to 152 00:09:48.795 --> 00:09:52.635 answer your question a little more long winded way, I personally think 153 00:09:52.635 --> 00:09:56.395 that the why is really important. When people say that we fear and 154 00:09:56.395 --> 00:09:59.730 there's Joanne woke, there's this, there's that, what is it that we want 155 00:10:00.030 --> 00:10:03.870 from our lives and from society and from our employees and those 156 00:10:03.870 --> 00:10:07.365 around us? When our why is clear, it's easier for us to 157 00:10:07.365 --> 00:10:11.204 navigate that path and to be more confident in those 158 00:10:11.204 --> 00:10:14.970 interactions than just come come from a place of fear. Yeah. I think I think 159 00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:17.470 you're Jo right. You talked about 160 00:10:19.530 --> 00:10:22.510 getting to know people. I think what happens sometimes in these 161 00:10:22.985 --> 00:10:26.745 debates that become unproductive, toxic, whichever word you like to 162 00:10:26.745 --> 00:10:29.325 use, we start to dehumanize, 163 00:10:30.670 --> 00:10:33.890 and we can see a history of dehumanization language 164 00:10:34.829 --> 00:10:37.970 throughout the generations and centuries where 165 00:10:39.445 --> 00:10:42.885 the out group becomes labeled and 166 00:10:42.885 --> 00:10:45.785 stereotyped with a with with some sort of dehumanized 167 00:10:46.485 --> 00:10:50.080 view. I'm good. I'm normal, but 168 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:53.760 they're not. They're bad. They're different. And then you you 169 00:10:53.760 --> 00:10:57.555 you sort of associate this word. I mean, we see a lot of 170 00:10:57.555 --> 00:11:01.315 this with, using Donald Trump as an example, the way he 171 00:11:01.315 --> 00:11:05.154 refers to his, his challenges for the presidency. You know, 172 00:11:05.154 --> 00:11:08.810 the dehumanizing always puts a negative label in front of their 173 00:11:08.810 --> 00:11:12.490 name, things like this to try and turn people's heads or 174 00:11:12.490 --> 00:11:16.265 minds against somebody with that repetitive. I think we yeah. So we 175 00:11:16.345 --> 00:11:20.105 we've seen that in many wars. We're seeing it happen in the Middle East at 176 00:11:20.105 --> 00:11:23.680 the moment where two sides dehumanize each other. Once 177 00:11:23.680 --> 00:11:26.820 something is not human, it's far easier to discriminate 178 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.279 or eradicate or exterminate. It re it really is, 179 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:34.975 isn't it? It really is because if you don't have names, you don't 180 00:11:34.975 --> 00:11:38.335 have faces, it's it's a certain set of society or certain 181 00:11:38.335 --> 00:11:42.140 religion or certain way of doing things that I'm not familiar 182 00:11:42.140 --> 00:11:45.980 with. That's got to be wrong because this is not this is not how I 183 00:11:45.980 --> 00:11:49.524 do things. I mean religion goes a big way. One of the biggest 184 00:11:50.464 --> 00:11:54.165 con biggest backlash I get is whenever I talk about religion. 185 00:11:54.385 --> 00:11:58.150 It is it it divides it feels to me that it 186 00:11:58.150 --> 00:12:01.370 divides more than any other facet of humanity. 187 00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:05.845 And so how do we navigate that? 188 00:12:05.845 --> 00:12:09.605 How do we continuously work within that 189 00:12:09.605 --> 00:12:13.340 system to ensure that individuals are treated 190 00:12:13.340 --> 00:12:17.120 as humans, that groups are treated as humans. And I I personally 191 00:12:17.180 --> 00:12:21.015 think that the more I work within this field, the more 192 00:12:21.015 --> 00:12:24.635 I come across people that are culturally intelligent. 193 00:12:24.855 --> 00:12:28.700 I see them being able to do this effectively. 194 00:12:28.760 --> 00:12:32.360 But you've got to you've got to open up to the idea before 195 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:35.855 you, go down that road. So the the first step on this journey is is 196 00:12:35.935 --> 00:12:39.615 as you say, was CQ Drive. And I 197 00:12:39.615 --> 00:12:43.410 I think you're quite right. You said before that even comes 198 00:12:43.410 --> 00:12:47.110 your why, doesn't it? Because the why gives you the drive. 199 00:12:47.730 --> 00:12:51.415 So what gave you your why to to embark 200 00:12:51.415 --> 00:12:54.935 on this, journey of of enlightenment, if you 201 00:12:54.935 --> 00:12:58.235 like? Enlightenment. Wow. Epiphany more like. 202 00:12:58.535 --> 00:13:02.149 Yes. Absolutely. Only took me 25 years to 203 00:13:02.149 --> 00:13:05.829 get to where I am. Right? When I say 25 years, 25 years of working 204 00:13:05.829 --> 00:13:08.889 life, you know, a lot longer before that. But 205 00:13:09.545 --> 00:13:13.324 what it really was is I want to I want to share that actually 206 00:13:13.384 --> 00:13:16.745 from the time that I was born, when I was born in 207 00:13:16.745 --> 00:13:20.399 India, up until now, even today, it 208 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.779 very much feels like systems were put in place 209 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.705 for someone like me to have a very different experience. And 210 00:13:27.705 --> 00:13:31.305 so that right there is the why. Because from the time that I was born 211 00:13:31.305 --> 00:13:34.845 as a woman, as a girl in a patriarchal India, 212 00:13:35.680 --> 00:13:39.460 40 something years ago to then moving to the UK 213 00:13:39.520 --> 00:13:42.900 and to Canada where it became that I'm a woman of color, 214 00:13:43.280 --> 00:13:47.084 that I'm an immigrant, that I have a funny accent, that 215 00:13:47.084 --> 00:13:50.865 I'm fresh off the board. So many other facets of me 216 00:13:51.084 --> 00:13:54.890 that really was not something that was chosen. It wasn't 217 00:13:55.050 --> 00:13:57.930 I didn't choose to be born as a woman. I didn't choose to be born 218 00:13:57.930 --> 00:14:00.329 in the color of skin that I was born in. And I'm very proud of 219 00:14:00.329 --> 00:14:04.005 that. Don't get me wrong. But then systems were put in place for someone like 220 00:14:04.005 --> 00:14:07.605 me to have a very different experience of life and what I was 221 00:14:07.605 --> 00:14:11.320 capable of achieving. Right? And so I've 222 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.160 had to fight that system, and this is why resilience is the superpower. I've had 223 00:14:15.160 --> 00:14:18.460 to fight that system from the day I was born until today. 224 00:14:18.805 --> 00:14:21.545 As an entrepreneur, I'm still fighting that system. 225 00:14:23.365 --> 00:14:27.065 And so that's the why, because I want to leave a legacy. 226 00:14:27.910 --> 00:14:31.350 I want to leave a legacy for those that look like me, for those that 227 00:14:31.350 --> 00:14:35.030 were that have no choices in the way they were born, where they were 228 00:14:35.030 --> 00:14:38.865 born, how they were born, all of those facets to to where we don't 229 00:14:38.865 --> 00:14:42.545 have a choice. I don't want someone like me to waste, and I 230 00:14:42.545 --> 00:14:46.279 say waste, 20 something years of their life before they 231 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:49.399 get to the full circle moment of, I'm really proud of who I am and 232 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:53.180 I can achieve whatever I want to achieve. It's taken me 233 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:56.955 25 years of working in boardrooms where 234 00:14:56.955 --> 00:15:00.495 I made myself small. I made myself 235 00:15:01.035 --> 00:15:04.475 fit in. I made myself try to 236 00:15:04.475 --> 00:15:08.300 please powers that wouldn't be pleased no matter what I did to 237 00:15:08.300 --> 00:15:12.140 now get to the point where it's like, no. You know what? Try 238 00:15:12.140 --> 00:15:15.935 and take away any part of my identity now. Try and question any part of 239 00:15:15.935 --> 00:15:19.775 my identity now. No. So it's that part of that legacy for those 240 00:15:19.775 --> 00:15:23.620 coming behind me, including my own 2 daughters. But equally, how 241 00:15:23.620 --> 00:15:27.300 that makes me feel, that why is very much I haven't felt better 242 00:15:27.300 --> 00:15:30.760 about myself and the skin I'm in than 243 00:15:31.144 --> 00:15:34.665 now, which is when I've embraced that totality of my living 244 00:15:34.665 --> 00:15:38.505 experience and who I am. So the why really is that. And I'm driven into 245 00:15:38.505 --> 00:15:42.070 boardrooms and into conversations with senior leaders and 246 00:15:42.070 --> 00:15:45.450 challenge them to say, how are you making 247 00:15:45.670 --> 00:15:49.215 your organization, your team, the space you occupy 248 00:15:49.755 --> 00:15:52.735 inclusive for people like my like me, and that's why. 249 00:15:53.515 --> 00:15:57.340 This is very reasonable. I think that's a great motivation to 250 00:15:57.420 --> 00:16:00.540 change the world one person at a time or one mind at a time or 251 00:16:00.540 --> 00:16:04.060 one Conversation at a time. One conversation. Yeah. 252 00:16:04.060 --> 00:16:07.795 Whatever. I think people often get frustrated that they can't fix the 253 00:16:07.795 --> 00:16:11.635 world now. And it's that's that's the that's the problem. Sometimes you feel like 254 00:16:11.635 --> 00:16:15.470 you Jo you're taking one step forward and not just 2 backwards, but sometimes 5 255 00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:18.930 backwards. Because for every time you you make a difference, 256 00:16:19.389 --> 00:16:22.990 you see another example of somewhere you need to make a difference somewhere else, and 257 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:26.515 it's just watching the TV and turning the news on, listening 258 00:16:27.935 --> 00:16:30.835 to Question Time on the BBC, whatever it may be, and you see 259 00:16:31.295 --> 00:16:35.040 examples day in, day out where people should 260 00:16:35.040 --> 00:16:38.880 know better and should to do better don't for 261 00:16:38.880 --> 00:16:42.480 whatever reason. A political end, I guess, without getting too political 262 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:46.134 here. So how can we try and educate 263 00:16:47.555 --> 00:16:50.274 leaders in that way then? Because, you know, you gotta start you say you start 264 00:16:50.274 --> 00:16:52.670 with the why, but the first bit is the the drive, and then we're gonna 265 00:16:52.670 --> 00:16:56.270 get the knowledge. How do people acquire that knowledge? When I work with 266 00:16:56.270 --> 00:17:00.115 leaders, in fact, the workshop that I had even this morning, is very much 267 00:17:00.175 --> 00:17:03.935 about I know my why, but I'm gonna have to unpack their why. Because 268 00:17:03.935 --> 00:17:07.770 everyone's why is different. And unless you're not unless you're clear about your why. Now 269 00:17:07.770 --> 00:17:10.570 let's be honest here. If your why if you're getting to work, and I'm talking 270 00:17:10.570 --> 00:17:14.250 about call lots of corporates that I've worked in, you're coming to work because 271 00:17:14.250 --> 00:17:17.855 ROI is important to you, that profitability is important, cost savings is 272 00:17:17.855 --> 00:17:21.615 important. Sure. Innovation is important. Sure. That's all fine. 273 00:17:21.615 --> 00:17:25.154 Let's admit it. Let's admit to that, that that's your why 274 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.960 Or that you want to you you've had an experience of someone you you love 275 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.720 dearly that has been marginalized. Someone you know, your own experience of 276 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.184 being marginalized. Whatever the reason, and you want to make the world a better place. 277 00:17:37.205 --> 00:17:40.725 If you are not clear about your why, you're not gonna be able to persist 278 00:17:40.725 --> 00:17:43.705 on this journey that we call diversity and inclusion. 279 00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:48.180 So let's assume for the sake of this 280 00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:51.700 conversation that a leaders, a CEO of a 281 00:17:51.700 --> 00:17:55.485 big multinational company, their why is ROI. 282 00:17:55.785 --> 00:17:59.625 Okay? Their why is financial stability, profitability. Now 283 00:17:59.625 --> 00:18:03.380 you've got to ask yourself, are you going to be able to get 284 00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:07.220 to that space without diversity and inclusion? And by that, we 285 00:18:07.220 --> 00:18:10.955 mean diversity because it brings the unique perspective that you need for 286 00:18:10.955 --> 00:18:14.575 innovation, and inclusion Jo that those that are 287 00:18:14.794 --> 00:18:18.394 there with unique perspectives are able to speak up and give those unique 288 00:18:18.394 --> 00:18:22.179 perspectives. Because if you're not gonna do it, your competition is gonna 289 00:18:22.179 --> 00:18:26.020 do it. So the business case for doing this, and 290 00:18:26.020 --> 00:18:29.805 I'm talking about leaders that are either heart led or head led. 291 00:18:30.105 --> 00:18:33.945 The business case for those head led leaders is a no brainer right 292 00:18:33.945 --> 00:18:37.485 now. CQ is a critical capability for navigating 293 00:18:37.705 --> 00:18:41.080 today's increasingly global and diverse business environment. 294 00:18:41.620 --> 00:18:44.840 It's so important that we made it one of our core behaviors 295 00:18:45.780 --> 00:18:49.264 at PwC. This is by the CEO of 296 00:18:49.264 --> 00:18:52.945 PwC a while ago. Right? 297 00:18:52.945 --> 00:18:56.544 So that's the why. Now how do we go about gaining knowledge? That's the easier 298 00:18:56.544 --> 00:19:00.340 part. You've understood your why. Which cultures do you interact 299 00:19:00.340 --> 00:19:03.780 with the most? And by culture, I mean gender, I mean 300 00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:07.625 nationality, I mean sexuality, I mean ability, I mean 301 00:19:07.625 --> 00:19:11.304 religion. Everything that makes us who we are. Which 302 00:19:11.304 --> 00:19:15.065 cultures do you interact with the most as a leader? That onus is now up 303 00:19:15.065 --> 00:19:18.870 to you to get the knowledge about how those cultures are 304 00:19:18.870 --> 00:19:22.550 similar or different from the way you are. There's books to read. There's podcasts to 305 00:19:22.550 --> 00:19:25.835 listen to. There's conversations to be had. There's innumerable 306 00:19:26.535 --> 00:19:30.215 resources out there. There is no excuse for a 307 00:19:30.215 --> 00:19:33.735 leader now to say I don't know about this because we've got the we've got 308 00:19:33.735 --> 00:19:37.100 the Internet. You've got social media. Who are you following 309 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.400 on your social media feed that is vastly different from your lived 310 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.205 experience? So how are you constantly learning and 311 00:19:45.205 --> 00:19:48.265 gaining that knowledge? How are you understanding about the cultural 312 00:19:48.565 --> 00:19:52.010 values of the team members that you work with on a 313 00:19:52.010 --> 00:19:55.610 regular basis? I've had so many instances from 314 00:19:55.610 --> 00:19:59.365 leaders that will say, but you know what? I've said 315 00:19:59.365 --> 00:20:02.345 to my team, challenge me at any time. I love feedback. 316 00:20:03.045 --> 00:20:06.665 That's the only way I can get better. And look, I'm opening up myself vulnerably 317 00:20:06.725 --> 00:20:10.520 to feedback at any point. I'm saying, have you understood who's 318 00:20:10.520 --> 00:20:14.280 reporting into you? Maybe they come from cultures that are high power distance or low 319 00:20:14.280 --> 00:20:17.985 power low high power distance. Hierarchy means a lot to them, 320 00:20:17.985 --> 00:20:21.825 which means they are not okay to challenge their boss or someone that's 321 00:20:21.825 --> 00:20:25.600 senior to them in the organization. So by saying that you 322 00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:29.040 want to be challenged, doesn't mean you're really opening the platform 323 00:20:29.040 --> 00:20:32.885 for constructive dialogue. And so that CQ knowledge 324 00:20:32.885 --> 00:20:36.725 box sits in really getting under the skin of what you think 325 00:20:36.725 --> 00:20:40.299 is acceptable and familiar to you, and it might not be for others, but it 326 00:20:40.299 --> 00:20:42.720 isn't wrong. So how are you navigating that? 327 00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:47.895 I think that's important what you say there. It's leaders who 328 00:20:47.895 --> 00:20:51.255 who say that. It's the same to me as my door is always 329 00:20:51.255 --> 00:20:55.020 open. Mhmm. It's a very passive form of 330 00:20:55.020 --> 00:20:58.780 communication saying, it's your problem to come and talk to me. As 331 00:20:58.780 --> 00:21:02.355 a leader, it's our job to to 332 00:21:02.355 --> 00:21:05.795 lean in, to reach out, to be active and 333 00:21:05.795 --> 00:21:08.775 deliberate about our allyship and our our learning. 334 00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:13.440 And you say, if you think about power dynamics, not everybody is 335 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.125 comfortable. Not everybody wants to say, I wanna knock on your 336 00:21:17.125 --> 00:21:20.904 door and disturb you. It's only a little thing. I say, just that 337 00:21:21.125 --> 00:21:24.804 little and often, how's it going today? Is everything working alright? Was was any 338 00:21:24.804 --> 00:21:28.230 blockers? Anything I can help with? How was the weekend? And just those 339 00:21:28.230 --> 00:21:32.070 conversations become used to having conversation with people. I don't expect everyone to come 340 00:21:32.070 --> 00:21:35.795 to you. And you might be listening to this saying, well, I've got 30, 40, 341 00:21:35.795 --> 00:21:39.415 50 people reporting to me. I can't do that with everybody. Well, 342 00:21:40.035 --> 00:21:43.815 you can. You can if you want to. Maybe not every day, 343 00:21:44.035 --> 00:21:47.750 but just gently cycle around, speak to people, talk to 344 00:21:47.750 --> 00:21:51.210 people, get the lowdown. If you hear someone's having some struggles, 345 00:21:52.275 --> 00:21:55.635 make a special effort. But, yeah, just to sit back and say, my door's always 346 00:21:55.635 --> 00:21:59.315 open. Come find me. It's like I agree. I agree. I think, you know, even 347 00:21:59.315 --> 00:22:02.919 if you look I mean, that concept of leadership. I'm a big fan of servant 348 00:22:02.919 --> 00:22:06.600 leadership. So I I really believe that a 349 00:22:06.600 --> 00:22:10.355 title doesn't make a leader. It is about what what the 350 00:22:10.355 --> 00:22:13.795 leader does with the title. So it's how do you 351 00:22:13.795 --> 00:22:17.335 gain not gain. How do you earn the respect 352 00:22:17.795 --> 00:22:21.460 of those that report into you? How do you 353 00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:25.140 earn their confidence? How do you earn their trust? And that to 354 00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:28.855 me is leadership because that's what will get the best out of people that 355 00:22:29.154 --> 00:22:32.755 work with you and for you. The other interesting element to this is 356 00:22:32.755 --> 00:22:36.520 that old school thought of leadership and the oh, you know, the door is 357 00:22:36.520 --> 00:22:40.200 open, speak up, give me feedback, give me challenge. It all comes from a great 358 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:43.924 place of intention for sure. But what's the next generation 359 00:22:44.065 --> 00:22:47.765 looking for? The next gen the the the the millennial, 360 00:22:47.904 --> 00:22:51.664 those coming behind us, their understanding of leadership and how they want to be 361 00:22:51.664 --> 00:22:55.370 led is vastly different from the way the world has been working so 362 00:22:55.370 --> 00:22:59.130 far. So how are leaders adapting to that? And that's again where the 363 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:02.855 heart of cultural intelligence sits. You've you spent as you say, you spent the 364 00:23:02.855 --> 00:23:04.475 early part of your life in India. 365 00:23:06.534 --> 00:23:09.595 I'm just curious, and this is this is curiosity. How 366 00:23:11.549 --> 00:23:15.090 how different was it for you to start again 367 00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:19.250 effectively with with in a new culture, a different 368 00:23:19.825 --> 00:23:23.585 majority faith, a different majority language, even the 369 00:23:23.585 --> 00:23:27.184 food. It's it's the television. Everything is 370 00:23:27.184 --> 00:23:30.960 different. And how does that feel to 371 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.800 be someone embarking on this second part of their life or the 372 00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:38.585 next part of their journey to is it exciting, or 373 00:23:38.585 --> 00:23:42.185 is it daunting? What a great question, Joanne. And, you 374 00:23:42.185 --> 00:23:45.545 know, I've thought about it in so many ways over so many years 375 00:23:45.545 --> 00:23:49.289 now. And I'm able to recalibrate it so differently from if 376 00:23:49.289 --> 00:23:53.130 you'd asked me this question even 10 years ago. Okay? And 377 00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:56.875 I say this because now that I've done this work 378 00:23:56.875 --> 00:24:00.715 and within I've spoken to so many people within this field of diversity, equity, 379 00:24:00.715 --> 00:24:04.260 inclusion. I have some amazing friends, you know, my tribe, and 380 00:24:04.260 --> 00:24:08.020 really gone deep into what all of this means. When I first arrived 381 00:24:08.020 --> 00:24:10.920 in the UK, as much as it was daunting 382 00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:15.225 and it was actually not great, and that's 383 00:24:15.225 --> 00:24:18.765 a polite word to to use, but I was grateful. 384 00:24:19.305 --> 00:24:22.810 At that point, even when people mocked my accent 385 00:24:23.270 --> 00:24:26.630 or the fact that when I arrived into this country, I had 386 00:24:26.630 --> 00:24:30.345 significant work experience in the in in India. I had a 387 00:24:30.345 --> 00:24:34.184 university degree. I had a postgraduate degree, but I didn't get a 388 00:24:34.184 --> 00:24:37.705 job in this country. I just didn't. They just they would refuse to even look 389 00:24:37.705 --> 00:24:41.130 at my CV 25 something years ago. And I had to 390 00:24:41.130 --> 00:24:44.669 start after months of looking at 100 of rejection 391 00:24:44.730 --> 00:24:48.110 letters. I started from scratch as a sales executive, really. 392 00:24:48.365 --> 00:24:52.125 Anyone that could have me would have me. And I was 393 00:24:52.125 --> 00:24:55.185 grateful. That is the result of post colonization, 394 00:24:55.725 --> 00:24:59.210 that anything white. The fact that I am in London, 395 00:25:00.070 --> 00:25:03.430 the fact that I can actually visit Buckingham Palace anytime I 396 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:06.975 wanted, It was so ingrained in us 397 00:25:07.034 --> 00:25:10.715 that everything white is so good that just to be part, just to 398 00:25:10.715 --> 00:25:14.330 get a job and work with white people, I felt grateful. 399 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:18.470 It was those years were almost, wow. I've got white 400 00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:21.850 friends, and I can go spend time with them and, 401 00:25:22.165 --> 00:25:26.005