WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.285 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.425 --> 00:00:15.205 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.345 --> 00:00:18.759 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.759 --> 00:00:22.460 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.695 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where 6 00:00:26.695 --> 00:00:30.375 everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not 7 00:00:30.375 --> 00:00:34.155 alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:38.620 challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate 9 00:00:38.839 --> 00:00:42.515 deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're 10 00:00:42.515 --> 00:00:45.975 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, 11 00:00:46.034 --> 00:00:49.175 let's connect, reflect, and inspire 12 00:00:49.394 --> 00:00:53.140 action together. Don't forget, you can be part of 13 00:00:53.140 --> 00:00:55.379 the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.418 --> 00:00:58.505 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.285 --> 00:01:02.885 to share your insights or to join me on the show. So 16 00:01:02.885 --> 00:01:06.450 adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:06.450 --> 00:01:09.910 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:13.730 --> 00:01:16.325 And today is episode 124 19 00:01:17.505 --> 00:01:20.884 with the title, Inclusive Healthcare for All. 20 00:01:21.665 --> 00:01:25.140 I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Ellen Edinburgh. 21 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.600 Ellen and their wife offer bespoke IND training for 22 00:01:29.600 --> 00:01:33.395 health and social care sector people. When I asked Ellen 23 00:01:33.395 --> 00:01:37.015 to describe their superpower, they said that they are part of 0.5% 24 00:01:37.555 --> 00:01:41.075 of the population, and not many people will ever know how that 25 00:01:41.075 --> 00:01:44.840 feels. They like to think that it gives them a unique time on this 26 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.140 planet. Hello, Ellen. Welcome to the show. 27 00:01:48.360 --> 00:01:51.500 Hello. Thank you for having me on a very early Monday morning. 28 00:01:52.365 --> 00:01:55.425 And you just got back from Spain, Malaga, I think you said. Mallorca. 29 00:01:56.285 --> 00:01:59.980 So, but it's blue skies in Leeds. Not the same 30 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.260 scenery, gotta gotta admit, but, still nice nonetheless. 31 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:07.485 Well, it's lovely to have you here. So, Ellen, Inclusive 32 00:02:07.545 --> 00:02:11.305 Healthcare for all, tell me about what you do with your wife. So, 33 00:02:11.625 --> 00:02:14.765 in Inclusive Health, we launched it January 31st 34 00:02:15.190 --> 00:02:18.569 precisely this year. So we are very new. We're very fresh. 35 00:02:19.030 --> 00:02:22.629 And I guess what we do in a nutshell, I guess our our 36 00:02:22.629 --> 00:02:26.105 tagline is foster inclusivity, elevating healthcare. 37 00:02:26.245 --> 00:02:30.005 So I've done in in inclusion diversity world now for 38 00:02:30.005 --> 00:02:33.790 about 9 years, which really is quite the early start 39 00:02:33.790 --> 00:02:37.250 of the I and D conversation in the UK. It still hasn't been around 40 00:02:37.310 --> 00:02:41.045 for for long, and I kind of, maybe we'll 41 00:02:41.045 --> 00:02:44.644 talk about it, but I've kind of bizarrely found myself in this world as many 42 00:02:44.644 --> 00:02:48.025 of us do, who have been there from kind of the early years. 43 00:02:48.610 --> 00:02:52.290 But I've been in I and d in in many different sectors. All 44 00:02:52.290 --> 00:02:56.069 sectors worked as a consultant and supported many different organisations 45 00:02:56.290 --> 00:02:59.735 from charity charities to massive large global organisations. 46 00:03:00.675 --> 00:03:04.515 And when you marry a doctor, which is a good decision and a 47 00:03:04.515 --> 00:03:08.260 bad decision, unfortunately, mostly bad, but it comes with some perks. I very 48 00:03:08.260 --> 00:03:11.220 rarely need to go to my GP because I can get some great advice at 49 00:03:11.220 --> 00:03:14.040 home, but you, you hear a lot of things. 50 00:03:14.845 --> 00:03:17.565 And you meet a lot of other doctors and you hear a lot of more 51 00:03:17.565 --> 00:03:21.245 of the things. And the old organisation I used to work 52 00:03:21.245 --> 00:03:24.910 with used to work with NHS providers and trusts, but we 53 00:03:24.910 --> 00:03:28.270 never could necessarily give those healthcare 54 00:03:28.270 --> 00:03:31.970 professionals, specialist, I and D training in terms of 55 00:03:32.165 --> 00:03:35.845 getting some learning and practicing that in a healthcare setting with 56 00:03:35.845 --> 00:03:39.685 real understanding. And I thought, wait a second. I've got someone in my house that 57 00:03:39.685 --> 00:03:43.290 can help with that. And we just thought, why not give it a go? I 58 00:03:43.290 --> 00:03:46.250 think my dad was trying to get me to be self employed since I was 59 00:03:46.250 --> 00:03:50.010 about 18. And I thought, finally, I'll I'll I'll give it a 60 00:03:50.010 --> 00:03:52.955 stab. And it's one of those things where you think, I'll give it a go. 61 00:03:52.955 --> 00:03:56.555 If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least I've tried it. And look, 62 00:03:56.555 --> 00:04:00.370 my wife's a doctor. My wife's a patient. I'm a patient, 63 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:04.210 we're all patients. Right? It is the one thing we have in life, 64 00:04:04.210 --> 00:04:07.510 and I think COVID 19 was 65 00:04:08.050 --> 00:04:11.705 a great awakening call for many that have necessarily not had 66 00:04:11.705 --> 00:04:15.545 healthcare considerations or problems in the past where I thought it's all 67 00:04:15.545 --> 00:04:19.000 we have. All we have in this life is our time and our 68 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:22.600 health. And there's so many people that feel like they 69 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:26.315 can't access healthcare. And of course there's, there's many barriers people access 70 00:04:26.315 --> 00:04:29.855 in healthcare, but when it comes to inclusion, people's just identity 71 00:04:30.155 --> 00:04:33.910 is a massive barrier, with trust, with worry, with fear. 72 00:04:33.910 --> 00:04:37.530 And if we can help one patient feel included 73 00:04:37.910 --> 00:04:41.695 with a healthcare professional, they have a great conversation. And that means in the 74 00:04:41.695 --> 00:04:45.455 future, when they feel a lump or a bump or a worry, then they go 75 00:04:45.455 --> 00:04:49.300 back for a healthcare chat or a consideration. It could save 76 00:04:49.300 --> 00:04:53.060 their life, and our job is done, even if it's one patient. There's a lot 77 00:04:53.060 --> 00:04:56.759 in the press at the moment about IND, inclusion and diversity, equity, 78 00:04:57.139 --> 00:05:00.885 belonging. But we've seen, I think only this week, 79 00:05:00.885 --> 00:05:03.945 and where are we? Middle of May 2024. 80 00:05:05.205 --> 00:05:08.185 The UK is pushing back on 81 00:05:09.030 --> 00:05:12.729 diversity and inclusion consultants in the public sector. 82 00:05:13.030 --> 00:05:16.710 They're cutting budgets and looking through department department saying, why are 83 00:05:16.710 --> 00:05:20.375 we investing in IND? What's your take 84 00:05:20.375 --> 00:05:23.995 on the the value that IND initiatives 85 00:05:24.215 --> 00:05:27.990 bring to organisations? I get well, firstly, I think I just saw 86 00:05:27.990 --> 00:05:31.670 even just this morning before jumping on to call that civil servants, I and D 87 00:05:31.670 --> 00:05:35.475 roles are getting scrapped or pulled back. The NHS 88 00:05:35.775 --> 00:05:38.595 budget towards inclusion diversity initiatives 89 00:05:39.295 --> 00:05:42.910 is 0.04%. Of the whole budget. 90 00:05:43.690 --> 00:05:47.290 I think what's quite worrying and alarming is this stuff is life 91 00:05:47.290 --> 00:05:50.650 saving, but people don't see it as that. They still see it side of 92 00:05:50.650 --> 00:05:54.065 desk. And I think that's depending on the 93 00:05:54.065 --> 00:05:57.745 facilitators that they've had, trainers that they've had, if they haven't 94 00:05:57.745 --> 00:06:01.570 got that message across in terms of just the benefit it gives 95 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:05.470 and look, depending on who I ever speak to, I, I give them a different 96 00:06:05.470 --> 00:06:09.085 sales pitch for inclusion, diversity. For some people it's 97 00:06:09.245 --> 00:06:12.865 people's enough. The fact that they're making people's lives better is enough. 98 00:06:13.085 --> 00:06:16.365 For some people, you have to talk about how actually it makes them money. But 99 00:06:16.365 --> 00:06:19.710 when it comes to healthcare, I and D initiatives 100 00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:22.830 will save money and save lives. 101 00:06:23.770 --> 00:06:27.485 You know, in terms of specific, you know, smear 102 00:06:27.485 --> 00:06:30.925 programs for trans and non binary people go into specific sessions for that, whether 103 00:06:30.925 --> 00:06:34.610 it's trying to support people from people of color and 104 00:06:34.610 --> 00:06:38.130 people of communities in terms of donating blood or things like 105 00:06:38.130 --> 00:06:40.550 that. It's life saving stuff. 106 00:06:41.810 --> 00:06:44.845 And I think love it's fear. It's fear 107 00:06:45.625 --> 00:06:48.925 that privileged groups aren't heard about. And I often 108 00:06:49.911 --> 00:06:53.500 Joanne feel an energy. I've even had comments back that, well, I and d's 109 00:06:53.500 --> 00:06:57.180 only for certain amounts of people, certain groups of people that are 110 00:06:57.180 --> 00:07:00.960 quote unquote minority. I don't like that word. I prefer marginalized. 111 00:07:01.575 --> 00:07:04.955 And yes, there is sometimes a time and place to have specific 112 00:07:05.015 --> 00:07:08.855 outreach to small percentage groups of people, especially when it comes 113 00:07:08.855 --> 00:07:12.490 to healthcare, you know, specific testing or opportunities that says, 114 00:07:12.490 --> 00:07:16.169 look, it's just for people of this identity, because we know they have fears and 115 00:07:16.169 --> 00:07:19.995 worries coming into a bigger and wider setting. But the downside 116 00:07:20.295 --> 00:07:23.700 to that is when they don't have those spaces, they aren't gonna go for healthcare 117 00:07:23.700 --> 00:07:27.415 Joanne it's only gonna cost more for the future. There's a really interesting initiative at 118 00:07:27.415 --> 00:07:31.257 the moment that the NHS are doing, and it's kind of the first 119 00:07:31.257 --> 00:07:34.911 of the kind I've seen. There's something it's within our 120 00:07:34.911 --> 00:07:38.745 household as well. It affects us. There's something in the Jewish community called 121 00:07:38.745 --> 00:07:42.125 the BRCA gene. And it's, an increased, 122 00:07:42.745 --> 00:07:46.250 likelihood of getting cancer. My wife has 123 00:07:46.250 --> 00:07:49.770 it. Other people in her family have had it, and she 124 00:07:49.770 --> 00:07:53.230 sits around 85% opportunity of getting breast cancer. 125 00:07:53.735 --> 00:07:57.574 Unfortunately, as a result of a half sibling, Anna will have 126 00:07:57.574 --> 00:08:00.235 life saving surgery this year to reduce that possibility. 127 00:08:01.335 --> 00:08:05.060 That is an IND initiative, and there's a new program within 128 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:08.820 the NHS, which basically says that they are gonna be doing 129 00:08:08.820 --> 00:08:12.375 swabs for people with Jewish heritage, Jewish grandparents 130 00:08:12.514 --> 00:08:15.975 to see if they have this gene Jo they can do preventative treatment 131 00:08:16.435 --> 00:08:20.010 before cancer comes and it's too late. That will 132 00:08:20.010 --> 00:08:23.690 save so many lives. It will save so many families and 133 00:08:23.690 --> 00:08:27.095 relationships and households from grief. It will 134 00:08:27.095 --> 00:08:30.935 save children having their parents in their lives 135 00:08:30.935 --> 00:08:34.774 for more years. Like, that's what we're talking about here. And I and 136 00:08:34.774 --> 00:08:38.440 d helps everybody. It helps parents. 137 00:08:38.500 --> 00:08:42.280 It helps carers. You know, it helps people from different 138 00:08:42.900 --> 00:08:46.695 socio mobility backgrounds. It is not just for 139 00:08:46.755 --> 00:08:50.055 certain groups of people, but I think the media are doing a cracking 140 00:08:50.435 --> 00:08:54.090 job of saying, Jo, it's I and d's only about me and you. 141 00:08:54.310 --> 00:08:57.750 This 0.5%, 0.1, you know, this 1% of the 142 00:08:57.750 --> 00:09:01.190 population. And yes, there's a time and place where me and you need 143 00:09:01.190 --> 00:09:04.535 specific time and spaces and health appointments, etcetera, 144 00:09:05.155 --> 00:09:08.835 but it is for everybody. And so much of inclusive 145 00:09:08.835 --> 00:09:12.440 health. Yes. There's specific things that my wife from a doctor 146 00:09:12.580 --> 00:09:16.260 side is gonna bring in from considerations, but she's a 147 00:09:16.260 --> 00:09:18.894 a trainee GP. She's working hospices at the moment. She's worked in at the moment. 148 00:09:18.894 --> 00:09:22.435 She's worked in pediatrics, respiratory, you name it, surgery. 149 00:09:22.894 --> 00:09:26.675 So much of it is just a communication. It's just asking the right questions. 150 00:09:27.420 --> 00:09:31.180 You know, she had an appointment as a GP. Someone came 151 00:09:31.180 --> 00:09:34.480 in with an with an issue with their with their testicles, 152 00:09:35.235 --> 00:09:39.075 and had never been asked about their sexuality and the relationships they had. But 153 00:09:39.075 --> 00:09:42.529 from what they were describing, it was vital to 154 00:09:42.529 --> 00:09:46.209 know who their sexual partner was and no one had ever 155 00:09:46.209 --> 00:09:49.589 asked. And it was a guy in his late sixties and they just assumed 156 00:09:50.175 --> 00:09:53.715 through fear of offending someone again, quote, unquote 157 00:09:53.775 --> 00:09:57.235 offending someone by asking that question. It was a simple question of, 158 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:01.560 are you sexually active? Who do you sleep with? What parts do you 159 00:10:01.560 --> 00:10:04.920 use? That was a vital question to help that 160 00:10:04.920 --> 00:10:08.435 person. And that was no extra health care in terms of 161 00:10:08.435 --> 00:10:12.214 doctor or knowledge. It was just an open ended question 162 00:10:12.595 --> 00:10:16.279 with no fear and no worry, and that really changed the 163 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.040 direction that my my wife then supported him. And it made 164 00:10:20.040 --> 00:10:23.800 things very clear of what those problems could be. That's all it was, was a 165 00:10:23.800 --> 00:10:27.384 question. That's it. It's all we're trying. That's part of the problem, isn't it? 166 00:10:27.384 --> 00:10:30.444 We we're we're lumping I and d, 167 00:10:30.824 --> 00:10:34.505 inclusion, diversity, diversity, inclusion, equity, whichever the buzzwords you 168 00:10:34.505 --> 00:10:38.300 want to use, into kind of 169 00:10:38.300 --> 00:10:41.520 activist Right. Activities, hashtag 170 00:10:42.435 --> 00:10:46.195 type activities, celebration activities. It's the 171 00:10:46.195 --> 00:10:49.795 party that's going on, you know, organizing these things. It's it's 172 00:10:49.795 --> 00:10:53.640 very infrequently equated to direct action 173 00:10:53.640 --> 00:10:57.400 the way you described there, where what we're looking at is root cause 174 00:10:57.400 --> 00:11:00.945 analysis based on people's lived experience, people's 175 00:11:01.085 --> 00:11:03.985 inherent characteristics, looking at the inequity 176 00:11:04.845 --> 00:11:08.440 that they may be feeling in in a process, and they're making 177 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:12.279 change to process to make sure they get equity. And that's 178 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:15.954 the I and d good side. So when they're talking about in the in the 179 00:11:15.954 --> 00:11:19.095 news, in the in the media, whatever it is about cutting these budgets back, 180 00:11:19.795 --> 00:11:23.475 what they're trying to they're lumping altogether in this 181 00:11:23.475 --> 00:11:27.240 this wokeness of society, costing loads of money to 182 00:11:27.540 --> 00:11:31.300 to promote minority people. Yeah. And and and 183 00:11:31.300 --> 00:11:35.035 again, it's it's whoever's leading that agenda is doing a 184 00:11:35.035 --> 00:11:38.875 cracking job because it as I I'm sure you're feeling it as 185 00:11:38.875 --> 00:11:42.700 anyone listening that is self employed, you know, I'm, I'm fairly new 186 00:11:42.700 --> 00:11:46.540 to it. And people are saying it's blooming different this year. The 187 00:11:46.540 --> 00:11:49.995 work is a bit different. You know, a lot of LGBTQ plus 188 00:11:49.995 --> 00:11:53.595 people, usually June saves them financially because of 189 00:11:53.595 --> 00:11:57.089 pride and people are worried and people aren't getting the the 190 00:11:57.089 --> 00:12:00.870 call outs that they thought they were gonna get. And it's very different 191 00:12:01.010 --> 00:12:03.890 from from this year to last year, and I don't know what your experiences are 192 00:12:03.890 --> 00:12:07.695 with that. So someone's doing a cracking job in terms of of of having 193 00:12:07.695 --> 00:12:11.455 that fear and worry. And, again, I think it's that division that we're asking 194 00:12:11.455 --> 00:12:14.540 more, and I think a lot of people, that's the message they're receiving at the 195 00:12:14.540 --> 00:12:18.380 moment is that we're asking for above and beyond. We're asking for this 196 00:12:18.380 --> 00:12:21.760 and this and that and that. We're not we're just asking for 197 00:12:22.085 --> 00:12:25.685 the basics, the absolute basics, a 198 00:12:25.685 --> 00:12:29.205 curious question, or if a question needs to be asked and 199 00:12:29.205 --> 00:12:33.000 it's, it could feel a bit awkward, just the framing about that. Still ask 200 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:36.760 the question, be like, I'm sorry. I've got to ask this. And, you know, 201 00:12:36.760 --> 00:12:40.465 even that awareness of the sensitivity around it, you know, we're we're really 202 00:12:40.465 --> 00:12:43.985 not asking for much. We just wanna be seen. And I know this sounds silly 203 00:12:43.985 --> 00:12:47.025 in a bit of a you know, I I was just speaking to you before 204 00:12:47.025 --> 00:12:50.780 we joined this that I've just been away. We never book a hotel because of 205 00:12:50.780 --> 00:12:54.140 fear and worry. I've had top surgery. I've got 2 scars on my 206 00:12:54.140 --> 00:12:57.815 chest. I wanna swim in a pool. I wanna lay out, and I 207 00:12:57.815 --> 00:13:01.495 worry about how people look at me or perceive our relationship. So we always have 208 00:13:01.495 --> 00:13:05.255 to spend more on booking somewhere private for us. And 209 00:13:05.255 --> 00:13:08.950 when we booked it, we mentioned that we were celebrating 210 00:13:08.950 --> 00:13:12.550 our anniversary to basically see how the host will feel about 211 00:13:12.550 --> 00:13:16.295 us, to get a a vague idea, to be like, we're just putting out there, 212 00:13:16.295 --> 00:13:20.055 we are LGBTQ plus. And she gave us a bottle of 213 00:13:20.055 --> 00:13:23.595 Prosecco and said it was your it's your anniversary. And she remembered months later 214 00:13:24.030 --> 00:13:27.790 that I felt so seen and acknowledged in an island I've 215 00:13:27.790 --> 00:13:31.555 never been. Even that was massive. You 216 00:13:31.555 --> 00:13:35.235 know? Even just to be like, I see your relationship, and I appreciate it, 217 00:13:35.235 --> 00:13:38.755 meant everything. Yeah. I I hear that comp I see what you're saying there 218 00:13:38.755 --> 00:13:42.270 completely. And I suppose I'm I'm old enough and ugly 219 00:13:42.270 --> 00:13:46.110 enough and resilient enough to not even think about that anymore. You know, 220 00:13:46.110 --> 00:13:49.775 my wife and I were in Bournemouth for a party weekend. We 221 00:13:49.775 --> 00:13:53.295 checked into the hotel. I didn't even give it a thought there'd be a problem. 222 00:13:53.295 --> 00:13:56.915 I guess I've traded off a 50 of 223 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:58.020 in hotels. And the thing is, I don't think I've changed. 224 00:14:04.145 --> 00:14:07.685 Obviously, I look different to other people, and our relationship with my wife has changed 225 00:14:07.905 --> 00:14:11.605 since my gender transition. But I don't I don't feel different 226 00:14:12.170 --> 00:14:16.010 inherently. So I I forget that I should have a problem, and therefore I don't, 227 00:14:16.010 --> 00:14:19.690 if you like if that makes sense. I don't I've never never socialized myself 228 00:14:19.690 --> 00:14:23.365 into into that sense of of self doubt, which means that 229 00:14:23.404 --> 00:14:27.245 Yeah. I wonder I don't see the problems. Without getting I 230 00:14:27.245 --> 00:14:29.805 feel like I'm gonna take you off Joanne a tangent now. I wonder if there's 231 00:14:29.805 --> 00:14:33.620 an element of I was raised as female 232 00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:37.300 on this planet and didn't really acknowledge my non 233 00:14:37.300 --> 00:14:41.015 binary identity until kind of mid COVID. So for many, 234 00:14:41.015 --> 00:14:44.635 many years, I identified as a woman on this Joanne. And 235 00:14:45.495 --> 00:14:48.955 with that, you are very aware of certain things. 236 00:14:49.890 --> 00:14:53.650 You know, I had top surgery coming on 2 years soon, and 237 00:14:53.650 --> 00:14:57.490 I can now post my nipples on Instagram, which was a really weird 238 00:14:57.490 --> 00:15:01.235 feeling because for years I was told I couldn't do that. And now I'm like, 239 00:15:01.235 --> 00:15:04.535 oh, my nipples are on the Internet. And I know that sounds ridiculous, 240 00:15:05.315 --> 00:15:08.695 but, like, I was I was told for years to hide myself 241 00:15:09.060 --> 00:15:12.500 of what I could and couldn't do in society. And what's really 242 00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:16.260 fascinating is I used to get misgendered as 243 00:15:16.260 --> 00:15:19.985 a man a lot before my top surgery, and 244 00:15:19.985 --> 00:15:23.345 I've never had it once post top surgery. So I'm now flat 245 00:15:23.345 --> 00:15:26.705 chested, and I've never been misgendered as a man 246 00:15:26.705 --> 00:15:30.160 once. And my wife has thinks it's 247 00:15:30.160 --> 00:15:33.920 because I don't hold space. I 248 00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:37.380 still, you know, that classic thing of men don't move out the way in pavements. 249 00:15:37.520 --> 00:15:40.465 They'll, you know, they they won't move out the way left or right. They just 250 00:15:40.465 --> 00:15:43.905 walk in a straight line. My wife's really determined that now we walk in a 251 00:15:43.905 --> 00:15:47.640 straight line. We don't move out the way, but I still do. I don't 252 00:15:47.640 --> 00:15:51.320 take up space on the plane and spread my legs wide, as I saw a 253 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:54.200 man doing the other day, and a woman felt so uncomfortable, she moved because it 254 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:57.824 was a half empty plane. You know, I'm re and and I 255 00:15:58.144 --> 00:16:01.925 that conditioning of me growing up of the space I should and shouldn't take, 256 00:16:02.144 --> 00:16:05.860 I think that plays in my mind when I still go on holidays, because I've 257 00:16:05.860 --> 00:16:09.540 I've still got that fear and worry. I think there is on the 258 00:16:09.540 --> 00:16:12.760 plus side, you know, to other people in the community, 259 00:16:13.675 --> 00:16:17.435 some people may not see me as non binary, right? They still might think 260 00:16:17.435 --> 00:16:21.195 I'm a butch woman. But there's a privilege with that 261 00:16:21.195 --> 00:16:25.019 because Wouldn't be as accepted, you know? So there are there are ups and 262 00:16:25.019 --> 00:16:25.519 downs, 263 00:16:31.625 --> 00:16:35.065 wouldn't be as accepted, you know? So there are there are ups and 264 00:16:35.065 --> 00:16:38.745 downs, but, we often look we we we didn't book a whole we 265 00:16:38.745 --> 00:16:42.050 didn't book a honeymoon for quite a while, because we couldn't decide where we wanted 266 00:16:42.050 --> 00:16:45.810 to be. Because we think about not only we're also very aware of our white 267 00:16:45.810 --> 00:16:49.385 privilege, you know, I there there was a friend of mine who went on a 268 00:16:49.385 --> 00:16:52.825 honeymoon to a country where it's illegal to be LGBTQ plus. And I thought, what 269 00:16:52.825 --> 00:16:56.505 are you doing? You know, just because you are safe as a tourist on that 270 00:16:56.505 --> 00:17:00.240 resort, you're giving money to a country that if you were born there, you'd 271 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.920 have a very different life. So when we book a holiday, it's not just 272 00:17:03.920 --> 00:17:07.714 where's the weather, where is it nice. It's where will we be 273 00:17:07.714 --> 00:17:11.315 okay as tourists? Secondly, where would it be okay if we were born 274 00:17:11.315 --> 00:17:14.830 there? You know, Spain is now 5th in Europe in terms of being LGBTQ 275 00:17:15.290 --> 00:17:19.130 plus. We're now 14th as a country. So I was probably safer 276 00:17:19.130 --> 00:17:22.570 in New York than I was here, which is quite scary when this is 277 00:17:22.570 --> 00:17:26.105 home. Yeah. I know it's we we went to Melbourne, 278 00:17:26.244 --> 00:17:30.005 Australia, before lockdown, and I 279 00:17:30.005 --> 00:17:33.800 was very conscious about the route we took. I 280 00:17:33.800 --> 00:17:37.560 didn't feel comfortable stopping off at Dubai Mhmm. With route 281 00:17:37.560 --> 00:17:41.005 or flying Emirates. So we ended up going via Hong Kong because I decided Hong 282 00:17:41.005 --> 00:17:44.845 Kong was the least worst option to to transit through. 283 00:17:44.845 --> 00:17:47.850 I didn't wanna go through China. I didn't wanna go through Emirates. And 284 00:17:48.448 --> 00:17:51.429 Jo, yeah, I was very conscious of that. Jo, yeah, I am about where I 285 00:17:51.429 --> 00:17:55.190 can go. I was born in Singapore. I know that Singapore now changed 286 00:17:55.190 --> 00:17:58.774 its law, and it's very much more LGBTQ friendly. 287 00:17:59.875 --> 00:18:03.715 But where I lived was in Malaysia, which is over the Causeway. And in Malaysia, 288 00:18:03.715 --> 00:18:07.290 it's still punishable by death, I believe, If you're queer, 289 00:18:07.290 --> 00:18:10.730 maybe Joanne. I don't know. Yeah. So it certainly is a a same sex couple 290 00:18:10.730 --> 00:18:14.250 as we are now. That would be frowned upon. So, yeah, I'm I'm hyphen aware 291 00:18:14.250 --> 00:18:17.755 of the my ability to travel is 292 00:18:18.215 --> 00:18:21.655 now different than it was. Oh. I I I was at a 293 00:18:21.655 --> 00:18:25.090 barbecue yes yesterday, and someone I know is moving to 294 00:18:25.090 --> 00:18:28.930 Australia because of her partner's job. And they were talking about flying 295 00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:32.610 with guitar and stopping guitar. And I'm just like, you 296 00:18:32.610 --> 00:18:34.905 don't you don't realize. 297 00:18:36.245 --> 00:18:39.845 And she is within our group. There's loads of 298 00:18:39.845 --> 00:18:42.665 LGBTQ plus people, loads of non binary and trans people. 299 00:18:43.299 --> 00:18:46.980 And look, I appreciate to get to Australia. There's only so many places you 300 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:50.784 can stop and go in so many airlines, but. You 301 00:18:50.784 --> 00:18:54.465 know, it's, I, I see a lot of people just go into Dubai and there's, 302 00:18:54.465 --> 00:18:58.145 there's, there's numerous things going on over there, which aren't great. But yeah, 303 00:18:58.145 --> 00:19:01.549 it's, it's, it's, I think, being LGBTQ 304 00:19:01.850 --> 00:19:05.610 plus, being trans, being non binary, you're so aware 305 00:19:05.610 --> 00:19:09.315 of your body in every space, to the point where I 306 00:19:09.315 --> 00:19:12.835 don't think we realize just how traumatic and heavy that is because we're just so 307 00:19:12.835 --> 00:19:15.955 used to it. Yeah. But I was to what you said about your nipples. I 308 00:19:15.955 --> 00:19:18.760 mean, I I'm I'm more conscious about my nipples now that I yeah. I used 309 00:19:18.760 --> 00:19:22.520 to fork on the beach for that show on, and now I wouldn't do that. 310 00:19:22.520 --> 00:19:26.195 And, and you talked about minimizing And whilst, as you I 311 00:19:26.195 --> 00:19:29.255 said, I'm old enough and ugly enough and resilient enough, but I I I minimize. 312 00:19:29.875 --> 00:19:33.635 I I let people pass on the pavement. I will walk out of the 313 00:19:33.635 --> 00:19:37.020 way. I will stop and let someone offer a man 314 00:19:37.020 --> 00:19:40.860 pass. And if someone opens the door for me, I'm I I I accept it 315 00:19:40.860 --> 00:19:44.184 with grace. And the other day, I was I was checking to a hotel. There's 316 00:19:44.184 --> 00:19:47.385 a big staircase, and I was I got up the first step, and this man 317 00:19:47.385 --> 00:19:50.525 comes, oh, excuse me. Let me take your back upstairs for you. 318 00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:55.070 Great. Brilliant. How valid how validating is that? You see, when someone opened 319 00:19:55.070 --> 00:19:58.290 the door for me, and it's Joanne Malamore was like, nope. You first. 320 00:19:59.825 --> 00:20:03.345 I make a point of making them go first. But, yeah, it's it's 321 00:20:03.345 --> 00:20:06.965 interesting, isn't it? Like, the the the the the difference 322 00:20:07.024 --> 00:20:10.770 of of of how we're experiencing a similar but 323 00:20:10.770 --> 00:20:14.610 different journey. Yeah. I'm very aware that we're now talking about 324 00:20:14.610 --> 00:20:18.105 nipples, which is probably what what were you expecting on a Monday morning. 325 00:20:18.804 --> 00:20:22.565 Honestly, we we I've talked about all things on this, I've talked 326 00:20:22.565 --> 00:20:26.320 about, trans health care and surgery before, and we've got very detailed 327 00:20:26.540 --> 00:20:30.060 and what that means to people. Jo, yeah, now it's it's 328 00:20:30.060 --> 00:20:33.725 important that we these conversations are had because we shouldn't be embarrassed. 329 00:20:33.784 --> 00:20:37.544 And that's what happens when we look at conversations around things like 330 00:20:37.544 --> 00:20:41.360 menopause. They've been buried for years. We we now need 331 00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:45.100 to have those conversations about menopause with an intersectional gender 332 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.575 gender diversity lens on them as well. You know, the intersect of people are non 333 00:20:48.575 --> 00:20:52.415 binary Joanne trans trans feminine, trans masculine people, which is 334 00:20:52.415 --> 00:20:56.100 blowing people's brains out there. Well, I thought I had menopause sorted, but you've put 335 00:20:56.100 --> 00:20:59.860 another dimension on it for me. And then we Right. We're gonna talk about gender 336 00:20:59.860 --> 00:21:03.320 neutral packaging and taking the femininity imagery 337 00:21:03.700 --> 00:21:06.615 away from period products and and the whole, 338 00:21:07.335 --> 00:21:11.015 gynecological kind of process is excluding, you know, people 339 00:21:11.015 --> 00:21:14.820 like yourself, people who are transmasculate, who have 340 00:21:14.820 --> 00:21:17.860 needs these services, and we're not careful what we're doing to experience people through the 341 00:21:17.860 --> 00:21:21.540 language we're using. I mean, I am 342 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:25.445 I've I'm turning 29, so I've I've had my second 343 00:21:25.445 --> 00:21:28.664 smear now, because of my age. It starts at 25. 344 00:21:28.885 --> 00:21:32.520 And first time was COVID, and I had a 345 00:21:32.520 --> 00:21:35.180 mask and that an that anonymousness helped, 346 00:21:36.040 --> 00:21:39.480 with going for that other GP. But this time I chose specifically go to, 347 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:43.705 an LGBTQ plus, kind of sexual health partnership 348 00:21:44.565 --> 00:21:48.085 in Leeds as a charity that works with the sexual health clinic and they do 349 00:21:48.085 --> 00:21:51.830 a specific trans and non binary opening session. So you 350 00:21:51.830 --> 00:21:55.590 feel acknowledged straight away and the only, you know, questions will be asked in 351 00:21:55.590 --> 00:21:58.970 a considered way. But what's, what's ironic 352 00:21:59.110 --> 00:22:02.055 is I'm, I'm also talking to my GP at the moment and trying to help 353 00:22:02.055 --> 00:22:05.895 them with their kind of trans policies and, and training and stuff. And 354 00:22:05.895 --> 00:22:09.640 I was still getting calls from them with miss so and so, and I'm like, 355 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:13.580 why why do I need a title? Also, I've been told 356 00:22:13.800 --> 00:22:17.240 I got the call a week or 2 later after being at the GP, and 357 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.145 and they say, oh, yeah. I can I can see you've had that Joanne it's 358 00:22:19.145 --> 00:22:22.665 come back negative? So why are you ringing me again? And then that misgen like, 359 00:22:22.665 --> 00:22:26.200 why can't we how is this Ellen? Like, again, people think 360 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.960 we're being nitpicky, but lots of people don't like titles for 361 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.560 lots of different reasons. You know, we we have our first name for a 362 00:22:33.560 --> 00:22:37.255 reason. And, again, why do we need pink 363 00:22:37.255 --> 00:22:40.775 packaging for every sanitary product? You know, just a 364 00:22:40.775 --> 00:22:44.380 packet. Like, it it again, it it so much 365 00:22:44.380 --> 00:22:47.900 it's like with disabilities. Was that famous little 366 00:22:47.900 --> 00:22:51.580 cartoon image? It's been snowing, the snow on the steps and the 367 00:22:51.580 --> 00:22:55.414 snow on the ramp, and they scrape the snow off the steps first. But if 368 00:22:55.414 --> 00:22:58.934 you just do it on the ramp, everyone can use it. You know, they was 369 00:22:58.934 --> 00:23:02.480 talking about, if you think about on streets in the UK, the 370 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.320 ramps that go down with the bumps, that's for people to use to to 371 00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:09.300 to see where the end of the roads are, but it helps people with prams. 372 00:23:09.885 --> 00:23:13.245 It helps people that are elderly, maybe just use a stick with mobility or for 373 00:23:13.245 --> 00:23:16.705 different reasons, mobility aids. It doesn't just 374 00:23:17.669 --> 00:23:20.870 help people that are like a wheelchair users. It helps so many more people and 375 00:23:20.870 --> 00:23:24.710 that's inclusion and diversity. When we're changing these policies, we're not doing 376 00:23:24.710 --> 00:23:28.105 it. You know, I I've looked at so many policies and given 377 00:23:28.105 --> 00:23:31.705 suggestions. It's completely intersectional. It's considering, 378 00:23:31.705 --> 00:23:35.130 it's advocating for fathers. It's people that adopt and 379 00:23:35.130 --> 00:23:38.890 carers of all different ages, because caring now, I think Jo many people 380 00:23:38.890 --> 00:23:42.524 have just assumed it's people with with children. But we didn't think 381 00:23:42.524 --> 00:23:46.044 about the aging population. We're thinking about kind of 382 00:23:46.044 --> 00:23:49.870 millennials and now caring for their parents and loved ones. We've 383 00:23:49.870 --> 00:23:53.630 all, I've always seen it from so broad, you know, even with inclusive 384 00:23:53.630 --> 00:23:57.010 health now. I think there's a lot of LGBTQ plus people, 385 00:23:57.405 --> 00:24:01.085 who do just specific LGBTQ plus training and things like that, but we 386 00:24:01.085 --> 00:24:04.845 really wanted to broaden it. Don't get me wrong. I think as you've 387 00:24:04.845 --> 00:24:08.470 kind of hinted with things at the moment, the most 388 00:24:08.470 --> 00:24:12.310 inquiries we are getting are LGBTQ plus with, with 389 00:24:12.310 --> 00:24:15.665 healthcare at the moment. And I guess for anyone listening who is 390 00:24:15.665 --> 00:24:19.365 LGBTQ plus, who has loved ones that are LGBTQ plus, 391 00:24:19.905 --> 00:24:23.505 you're hearing certain things in the media, but I promise you there's more 392 00:24:23.505 --> 00:24:27.270 people in health care that are trying to advocate this stuff than you are being 393 00:24:27.270 --> 00:24:30.710 told to believe. We are still getting a lot of interest from 394 00:24:30.710 --> 00:24:34.365 trusts, from health care charities that are wanting to 395 00:24:34.365 --> 00:24:36.945 be proactive with trans and non binary patients. 396 00:24:38.445 --> 00:24:42.010 So try and not take everything. So for example, the 397 00:24:42.010 --> 00:24:45.530 NHS rainbow badge, for those that are listening aren't aware of 398 00:24:45.530 --> 00:24:49.345 that, You might have seen the badge. It simply started as a project 399 00:24:49.345 --> 00:24:53.125 in which you just wore a lanyard. You put this badge on it that basically 400 00:24:53.265 --> 00:24:56.630 hinted that you will be considerate of LGBTQ plus 401 00:24:56.630 --> 00:25:00.309