Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where
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Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show. So
Joanne Lockwood: adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 124
Joanne Lockwood: with the title, Inclusive Healthcare for All.
Joanne Lockwood: I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Ellen Edinburgh.
Joanne Lockwood: Ellen and their wife offer bespoke IND training for
Joanne Lockwood: health and social care sector people. When I asked Ellen
Joanne Lockwood: to describe their superpower, they said that they are part of 0.5%
Joanne Lockwood: of the population, and not many people will ever know how that
Joanne Lockwood: feels. They like to think that it gives them a unique time on this
Joanne Lockwood: planet. Hello, Ellen. Welcome to the show.
Ellen Edenbrow: Hello. Thank you for having me on a very early Monday morning.
Joanne Lockwood: And you just got back from Spain, Malaga, I think you said. Mallorca.
Ellen Edenbrow: So, but it's blue skies in Leeds. Not the same
Ellen Edenbrow: scenery, gotta gotta admit, but, still nice nonetheless.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, it's lovely to have you here. So, Ellen, Inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: Healthcare for all, tell me about what you do with your wife. So,
Ellen Edenbrow: in Inclusive Health, we launched it January 31st
Ellen Edenbrow: precisely this year. So we are very new. We're very fresh.
Ellen Edenbrow: And I guess what we do in a nutshell, I guess our our
Ellen Edenbrow: tagline is foster inclusivity, elevating healthcare.
Ellen Edenbrow: So I've done in in inclusion diversity world now for
Ellen Edenbrow: about 9 years, which really is quite the early start
Ellen Edenbrow: of the I and D conversation in the UK. It still hasn't been around
Ellen Edenbrow: for for long, and I kind of, maybe we'll
Ellen Edenbrow: talk about it, but I've kind of bizarrely found myself in this world as many
Ellen Edenbrow: of us do, who have been there from kind of the early years.
Ellen Edenbrow: But I've been in I and d in in many different sectors. All
Ellen Edenbrow: sectors worked as a consultant and supported many different organisations
Ellen Edenbrow: from charity charities to massive large global organisations.
Ellen Edenbrow: And when you marry a doctor, which is a good decision and a
Ellen Edenbrow: bad decision, unfortunately, mostly bad, but it comes with some perks. I very
Ellen Edenbrow: rarely need to go to my GP because I can get some great advice at
Ellen Edenbrow: home, but you, you hear a lot of things.
Ellen Edenbrow: And you meet a lot of other doctors and you hear a lot of more
Ellen Edenbrow: of the things. And the old organisation I used to work
Ellen Edenbrow: with used to work with NHS providers and trusts, but we
Ellen Edenbrow: never could necessarily give those healthcare
Ellen Edenbrow: professionals, specialist, I and D training in terms of
Ellen Edenbrow: getting some learning and practicing that in a healthcare setting with
Ellen Edenbrow: real understanding. And I thought, wait a second. I've got someone in my house that
Ellen Edenbrow: can help with that. And we just thought, why not give it a go? I
Ellen Edenbrow: think my dad was trying to get me to be self employed since I was
Ellen Edenbrow: about 18. And I thought, finally, I'll I'll I'll give it a
Ellen Edenbrow: stab. And it's one of those things where you think, I'll give it a go.
Ellen Edenbrow: If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least I've tried it. And look,
Ellen Edenbrow: my wife's a doctor. My wife's a patient. I'm a patient,
Ellen Edenbrow: we're all patients. Right? It is the one thing we have in life,
Ellen Edenbrow: and I think COVID 19 was
Ellen Edenbrow: a great awakening call for many that have necessarily not had
Ellen Edenbrow: healthcare considerations or problems in the past where I thought it's all
Ellen Edenbrow: we have. All we have in this life is our time and our
Ellen Edenbrow: health. And there's so many people that feel like they
Ellen Edenbrow: can't access healthcare. And of course there's, there's many barriers people access
Ellen Edenbrow: in healthcare, but when it comes to inclusion, people's just identity
Ellen Edenbrow: is a massive barrier, with trust, with worry, with fear.
Ellen Edenbrow: And if we can help one patient feel included
Ellen Edenbrow: with a healthcare professional, they have a great conversation. And that means in the
Ellen Edenbrow: future, when they feel a lump or a bump or a worry, then they go
Ellen Edenbrow: back for a healthcare chat or a consideration. It could save
Ellen Edenbrow: their life, and our job is done, even if it's one patient. There's a lot
Joanne Lockwood: in the press at the moment about IND, inclusion and diversity, equity,
Joanne Lockwood: belonging. But we've seen, I think only this week,
Joanne Lockwood: and where are we? Middle of May 2024.
Joanne Lockwood: The UK is pushing back on
Joanne Lockwood: diversity and inclusion consultants in the public sector.
Joanne Lockwood: They're cutting budgets and looking through department department saying, why are
Joanne Lockwood: we investing in IND? What's your take
Joanne Lockwood: on the the value that IND initiatives
Joanne Lockwood: bring to organisations? I get well, firstly, I think I just saw
Ellen Edenbrow: even just this morning before jumping on to call that civil servants, I and D
Ellen Edenbrow: roles are getting scrapped or pulled back. The NHS
Ellen Edenbrow: budget towards inclusion diversity initiatives
Ellen Edenbrow: is 0.04%. Of the whole budget.
Ellen Edenbrow: I think what's quite worrying and alarming is this stuff is life
Ellen Edenbrow: saving, but people don't see it as that. They still see it side of
Ellen Edenbrow: desk. And I think that's depending on the
Ellen Edenbrow: facilitators that they've had, trainers that they've had, if they haven't
Ellen Edenbrow: got that message across in terms of just the benefit it gives
Ellen Edenbrow: and look, depending on who I ever speak to, I, I give them a different
Ellen Edenbrow: sales pitch for inclusion, diversity. For some people it's
Ellen Edenbrow: people's enough. The fact that they're making people's lives better is enough.
Ellen Edenbrow: For some people, you have to talk about how actually it makes them money. But
Ellen Edenbrow: when it comes to healthcare, I and D initiatives
Ellen Edenbrow: will save money and save lives.
Ellen Edenbrow: You know, in terms of specific, you know, smear
Ellen Edenbrow: programs for trans and non binary people go into specific sessions for that, whether
Ellen Edenbrow: it's trying to support people from people of color and
Ellen Edenbrow: people of communities in terms of donating blood or things like
Ellen Edenbrow: that. It's life saving stuff.
Ellen Edenbrow: And I think love it's fear. It's fear
Ellen Edenbrow: that privileged groups aren't heard about. And I often
Ellen Edenbrow: Joanne feel an energy. I've even had comments back that, well, I and d's
Ellen Edenbrow: only for certain amounts of people, certain groups of people that are
Ellen Edenbrow: quote unquote minority. I don't like that word. I prefer marginalized.
Ellen Edenbrow: And yes, there is sometimes a time and place to have specific
Ellen Edenbrow: outreach to small percentage groups of people, especially when it comes
Ellen Edenbrow: to healthcare, you know, specific testing or opportunities that says,
Ellen Edenbrow: look, it's just for people of this identity, because we know they have fears and
Ellen Edenbrow: worries coming into a bigger and wider setting. But the downside
Ellen Edenbrow: to that is when they don't have those spaces, they aren't gonna go for healthcare
Ellen Edenbrow: Joanne it's only gonna cost more for the future. There's a really interesting initiative at
Ellen Edenbrow: the moment that the NHS are doing, and it's kind of the first
Ellen Edenbrow: of the kind I've seen. There's something it's within our
Ellen Edenbrow: household as well. It affects us. There's something in the Jewish community called
Ellen Edenbrow: the BRCA gene. And it's, an increased,
Ellen Edenbrow: likelihood of getting cancer. My wife has
Ellen Edenbrow: it. Other people in her family have had it, and she
Ellen Edenbrow: sits around 85% opportunity of getting breast cancer.
Ellen Edenbrow: Unfortunately, as a result of a half sibling, Anna will have
Ellen Edenbrow: life saving surgery this year to reduce that possibility.
Ellen Edenbrow: That is an IND initiative, and there's a new program within
Ellen Edenbrow: the NHS, which basically says that they are gonna be doing
Ellen Edenbrow: swabs for people with Jewish heritage, Jewish grandparents
Ellen Edenbrow: to see if they have this gene Jo they can do preventative treatment
Ellen Edenbrow: before cancer comes and it's too late. That will
Ellen Edenbrow: save so many lives. It will save so many families and
Ellen Edenbrow: relationships and households from grief. It will
Ellen Edenbrow: save children having their parents in their lives
Ellen Edenbrow: for more years. Like, that's what we're talking about here. And I and
Ellen Edenbrow: d helps everybody. It helps parents.
Ellen Edenbrow: It helps carers. You know, it helps people from different
Ellen Edenbrow: socio mobility backgrounds. It is not just for
Ellen Edenbrow: certain groups of people, but I think the media are doing a cracking
Ellen Edenbrow: job of saying, Jo, it's I and d's only about me and you.
Ellen Edenbrow: This 0.5%, 0.1, you know, this 1% of the
Ellen Edenbrow: population. And yes, there's a time and place where me and you need
Ellen Edenbrow: specific time and spaces and health appointments, etcetera,
Ellen Edenbrow: but it is for everybody. And so much of inclusive
Ellen Edenbrow: health. Yes. There's specific things that my wife from a doctor
Ellen Edenbrow: side is gonna bring in from considerations, but she's a
Ellen Edenbrow: a trainee GP. She's working hospices at the moment. She's worked in at the moment.
Ellen Edenbrow: She's worked in pediatrics, respiratory, you name it, surgery.
Ellen Edenbrow: So much of it is just a communication. It's just asking the right questions.
Ellen Edenbrow: You know, she had an appointment as a GP. Someone came
Ellen Edenbrow: in with an with an issue with their with their testicles,
Ellen Edenbrow: and had never been asked about their sexuality and the relationships they had. But
Ellen Edenbrow: from what they were describing, it was vital to
Ellen Edenbrow: know who their sexual partner was and no one had ever
Ellen Edenbrow: asked. And it was a guy in his late sixties and they just assumed
Ellen Edenbrow: through fear of offending someone again, quote, unquote
Ellen Edenbrow: offending someone by asking that question. It was a simple question of,
Ellen Edenbrow: are you sexually active? Who do you sleep with? What parts do you
Ellen Edenbrow: use? That was a vital question to help that
Ellen Edenbrow: person. And that was no extra health care in terms of
Ellen Edenbrow: doctor or knowledge. It was just an open ended question
Ellen Edenbrow: with no fear and no worry, and that really changed the
Ellen Edenbrow: direction that my my wife then supported him. And it made
Ellen Edenbrow: things very clear of what those problems could be. That's all it was, was a
Ellen Edenbrow: question. That's it. It's all we're trying. That's part of the problem, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: We we're we're lumping I and d,
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, diversity, diversity, inclusion, equity, whichever the buzzwords you
Joanne Lockwood: want to use, into kind of
Joanne Lockwood: activist Right. Activities, hashtag
Joanne Lockwood: type activities, celebration activities. It's the
Joanne Lockwood: party that's going on, you know, organizing these things. It's it's
Joanne Lockwood: very infrequently equated to direct action
Joanne Lockwood: the way you described there, where what we're looking at is root cause
Joanne Lockwood: analysis based on people's lived experience, people's
Joanne Lockwood: inherent characteristics, looking at the inequity
Joanne Lockwood: that they may be feeling in in a process, and they're making
Joanne Lockwood: change to process to make sure they get equity. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: the I and d good side. So when they're talking about in the in the
Joanne Lockwood: news, in the in the media, whatever it is about cutting these budgets back,
Joanne Lockwood: what they're trying to they're lumping altogether in this
Joanne Lockwood: this wokeness of society, costing loads of money to
Joanne Lockwood: to promote minority people. Yeah. And and and
Ellen Edenbrow: again, it's it's whoever's leading that agenda is doing a
Ellen Edenbrow: cracking job because it as I I'm sure you're feeling it as
Ellen Edenbrow: anyone listening that is self employed, you know, I'm, I'm fairly new
Ellen Edenbrow: to it. And people are saying it's blooming different this year. The
Ellen Edenbrow: work is a bit different. You know, a lot of LGBTQ plus
Ellen Edenbrow: people, usually June saves them financially because of
Ellen Edenbrow: pride and people are worried and people aren't getting the the
Ellen Edenbrow: call outs that they thought they were gonna get. And it's very different
Ellen Edenbrow: from from this year to last year, and I don't know what your experiences are
Ellen Edenbrow: with that. So someone's doing a cracking job in terms of of of having
Ellen Edenbrow: that fear and worry. And, again, I think it's that division that we're asking
Ellen Edenbrow: more, and I think a lot of people, that's the message they're receiving at the
Ellen Edenbrow: moment is that we're asking for above and beyond. We're asking for this
Ellen Edenbrow: and this and that and that. We're not we're just asking for
Ellen Edenbrow: the basics, the absolute basics, a
Ellen Edenbrow: curious question, or if a question needs to be asked and
Ellen Edenbrow: it's, it could feel a bit awkward, just the framing about that. Still ask
Ellen Edenbrow: the question, be like, I'm sorry. I've got to ask this. And, you know,
Ellen Edenbrow: even that awareness of the sensitivity around it, you know, we're we're really
Ellen Edenbrow: not asking for much. We just wanna be seen. And I know this sounds silly
Ellen Edenbrow: in a bit of a you know, I I was just speaking to you before
Ellen Edenbrow: we joined this that I've just been away. We never book a hotel because of
Ellen Edenbrow: fear and worry. I've had top surgery. I've got 2 scars on my
Ellen Edenbrow: chest. I wanna swim in a pool. I wanna lay out, and I
Ellen Edenbrow: worry about how people look at me or perceive our relationship. So we always have
Ellen Edenbrow: to spend more on booking somewhere private for us. And
Ellen Edenbrow: when we booked it, we mentioned that we were celebrating
Ellen Edenbrow: our anniversary to basically see how the host will feel about
Ellen Edenbrow: us, to get a a vague idea, to be like, we're just putting out there,
Ellen Edenbrow: we are LGBTQ plus. And she gave us a bottle of
Ellen Edenbrow: Prosecco and said it was your it's your anniversary. And she remembered months later
Ellen Edenbrow: that I felt so seen and acknowledged in an island I've
Ellen Edenbrow: never been. Even that was massive. You
Ellen Edenbrow: know? Even just to be like, I see your relationship, and I appreciate it,
Ellen Edenbrow: meant everything. Yeah. I I hear that comp I see what you're saying there
Joanne Lockwood: completely. And I suppose I'm I'm old enough and ugly
Joanne Lockwood: enough and resilient enough to not even think about that anymore. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: my wife and I were in Bournemouth for a party weekend. We
Joanne Lockwood: checked into the hotel. I didn't even give it a thought there'd be a problem.
Joanne Lockwood: I guess I've traded off a 50 of
Joanne Lockwood: in hotels. And the thing is, I don't think I've changed.
Joanne Lockwood: Obviously, I look different to other people, and our relationship with my wife has changed
Joanne Lockwood: since my gender transition. But I don't I don't feel different
Joanne Lockwood: inherently. So I I forget that I should have a problem, and therefore I don't,
Joanne Lockwood: if you like if that makes sense. I don't I've never never socialized myself
Joanne Lockwood: into into that sense of of self doubt, which means that
Ellen Edenbrow: Yeah. I wonder I don't see the problems. Without getting I
Ellen Edenbrow: feel like I'm gonna take you off Joanne a tangent now. I wonder if there's
Ellen Edenbrow: an element of I was raised as female
Ellen Edenbrow: on this planet and didn't really acknowledge my non
Ellen Edenbrow: binary identity until kind of mid COVID. So for many,
Ellen Edenbrow: many years, I identified as a woman on this Joanne. And
Ellen Edenbrow: with that, you are very aware of certain things.
Ellen Edenbrow: You know, I had top surgery coming on 2 years soon, and
Ellen Edenbrow: I can now post my nipples on Instagram, which was a really weird
Ellen Edenbrow: feeling because for years I was told I couldn't do that. And now I'm like,
Ellen Edenbrow: oh, my nipples are on the Internet. And I know that sounds ridiculous,
Ellen Edenbrow: but, like, I was I was told for years to hide myself
Ellen Edenbrow: of what I could and couldn't do in society. And what's really
Ellen Edenbrow: fascinating is I used to get misgendered as
Ellen Edenbrow: a man a lot before my top surgery, and
Ellen Edenbrow: I've never had it once post top surgery. So I'm now flat
Ellen Edenbrow: chested, and I've never been misgendered as a man
Ellen Edenbrow: once. And my wife has thinks it's
Ellen Edenbrow: because I don't hold space. I
Ellen Edenbrow: still, you know, that classic thing of men don't move out the way in pavements.
Ellen Edenbrow: They'll, you know, they they won't move out the way left or right. They just
Ellen Edenbrow: walk in a straight line. My wife's really determined that now we walk in a
Ellen Edenbrow: straight line. We don't move out the way, but I still do. I don't
Ellen Edenbrow: take up space on the plane and spread my legs wide, as I saw a
Ellen Edenbrow: man doing the other day, and a woman felt so uncomfortable, she moved because it
Ellen Edenbrow: was a half empty plane. You know, I'm re and and I
Ellen Edenbrow: that conditioning of me growing up of the space I should and shouldn't take,
Ellen Edenbrow: I think that plays in my mind when I still go on holidays, because I've
Ellen Edenbrow: I've still got that fear and worry. I think there is on the
Ellen Edenbrow: plus side, you know, to other people in the community,
Ellen Edenbrow: some people may not see me as non binary, right? They still might think
Ellen Edenbrow: I'm a butch woman. But there's a privilege with that
Ellen Edenbrow: because Wouldn't be as accepted, you know? So there are there are ups and
Ellen Edenbrow: downs,
Ellen Edenbrow: wouldn't be as accepted, you know? So there are there are ups and
Ellen Edenbrow: downs, but, we often look we we we didn't book a whole we
Ellen Edenbrow: didn't book a honeymoon for quite a while, because we couldn't decide where we wanted
Ellen Edenbrow: to be. Because we think about not only we're also very aware of our white
Ellen Edenbrow: privilege, you know, I there there was a friend of mine who went on a
Ellen Edenbrow: honeymoon to a country where it's illegal to be LGBTQ plus. And I thought, what
Ellen Edenbrow: are you doing? You know, just because you are safe as a tourist on that
Ellen Edenbrow: resort, you're giving money to a country that if you were born there, you'd
Ellen Edenbrow: have a very different life. So when we book a holiday, it's not just
Ellen Edenbrow: where's the weather, where is it nice. It's where will we be
Ellen Edenbrow: okay as tourists? Secondly, where would it be okay if we were born
Ellen Edenbrow: there? You know, Spain is now 5th in Europe in terms of being LGBTQ
Ellen Edenbrow: plus. We're now 14th as a country. So I was probably safer
Ellen Edenbrow: in New York than I was here, which is quite scary when this is
Ellen Edenbrow: home. Yeah. I know it's we we went to Melbourne,
Joanne Lockwood: Australia, before lockdown, and I
Joanne Lockwood: was very conscious about the route we took. I
Joanne Lockwood: didn't feel comfortable stopping off at Dubai Mhmm. With route
Joanne Lockwood: or flying Emirates. So we ended up going via Hong Kong because I decided Hong
Joanne Lockwood: Kong was the least worst option to to transit through.
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't wanna go through China. I didn't wanna go through Emirates. And
Joanne Lockwood: Jo, yeah, I was very conscious of that. Jo, yeah, I am about where I
Joanne Lockwood: can go. I was born in Singapore. I know that Singapore now changed
Joanne Lockwood: its law, and it's very much more LGBTQ friendly.
Joanne Lockwood: But where I lived was in Malaysia, which is over the Causeway. And in Malaysia,
Joanne Lockwood: it's still punishable by death, I believe, If you're queer,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe Joanne. I don't know. Yeah. So it certainly is a a same sex couple
Joanne Lockwood: as we are now. That would be frowned upon. So, yeah, I'm I'm hyphen aware
Joanne Lockwood: of the my ability to travel is
Joanne Lockwood: now different than it was. Oh. I I I was at a
Ellen Edenbrow: barbecue yes yesterday, and someone I know is moving to
Ellen Edenbrow: Australia because of her partner's job. And they were talking about flying
Ellen Edenbrow: with guitar and stopping guitar. And I'm just like, you
Ellen Edenbrow: don't you don't realize.
Ellen Edenbrow: And she is within our group. There's loads of
Ellen Edenbrow: LGBTQ plus people, loads of non binary and trans people.
Ellen Edenbrow: And look, I appreciate to get to Australia. There's only so many places you
Ellen Edenbrow: can stop and go in so many airlines, but. You
Ellen Edenbrow: know, it's, I, I see a lot of people just go into Dubai and there's,
Ellen Edenbrow: there's, there's numerous things going on over there, which aren't great. But yeah,
Ellen Edenbrow: it's, it's, it's, I think, being LGBTQ
Ellen Edenbrow: plus, being trans, being non binary, you're so aware
Ellen Edenbrow: of your body in every space, to the point where I
Ellen Edenbrow: don't think we realize just how traumatic and heavy that is because we're just so
Ellen Edenbrow: used to it. Yeah. But I was to what you said about your nipples. I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, I I'm I'm more conscious about my nipples now that I yeah. I used
Joanne Lockwood: to fork on the beach for that show on, and now I wouldn't do that.
Joanne Lockwood: And, and you talked about minimizing And whilst, as you I
Joanne Lockwood: said, I'm old enough and ugly enough and resilient enough, but I I I minimize.
Joanne Lockwood: I I let people pass on the pavement. I will walk out of the
Joanne Lockwood: way. I will stop and let someone offer a man
Joanne Lockwood: pass. And if someone opens the door for me, I'm I I I accept it
Joanne Lockwood: with grace. And the other day, I was I was checking to a hotel. There's
Joanne Lockwood: a big staircase, and I was I got up the first step, and this man
Joanne Lockwood: comes, oh, excuse me. Let me take your back upstairs for you.
Joanne Lockwood: Great. Brilliant. How valid how validating is that? You see, when someone opened
Ellen Edenbrow: the door for me, and it's Joanne Malamore was like, nope. You first.
Ellen Edenbrow: I make a point of making them go first. But, yeah, it's it's
Ellen Edenbrow: interesting, isn't it? Like, the the the the the difference
Ellen Edenbrow: of of of how we're experiencing a similar but
Ellen Edenbrow: different journey. Yeah. I'm very aware that we're now talking about
Ellen Edenbrow: nipples, which is probably what what were you expecting on a Monday morning.
Joanne Lockwood: Honestly, we we I've talked about all things on this, I've talked
Joanne Lockwood: about, trans health care and surgery before, and we've got very detailed
Joanne Lockwood: and what that means to people. Jo, yeah, now it's it's
Joanne Lockwood: important that we these conversations are had because we shouldn't be embarrassed.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's what happens when we look at conversations around things like
Joanne Lockwood: menopause. They've been buried for years. We we now need
Joanne Lockwood: to have those conversations about menopause with an intersectional gender
Joanne Lockwood: gender diversity lens on them as well. You know, the intersect of people are non
Joanne Lockwood: binary Joanne trans trans feminine, trans masculine people, which is
Joanne Lockwood: blowing people's brains out there. Well, I thought I had menopause sorted, but you've put
Joanne Lockwood: another dimension on it for me. And then we Right. We're gonna talk about gender
Joanne Lockwood: neutral packaging and taking the femininity imagery
Joanne Lockwood: away from period products and and the whole,
Joanne Lockwood: gynecological kind of process is excluding, you know, people
Joanne Lockwood: like yourself, people who are transmasculate, who have
Joanne Lockwood: needs these services, and we're not careful what we're doing to experience people through the
Joanne Lockwood: language we're using. I mean, I am
Ellen Edenbrow: I've I'm turning 29, so I've I've had my second
Ellen Edenbrow: smear now, because of my age. It starts at 25.
Ellen Edenbrow: And first time was COVID, and I had a
Ellen Edenbrow: mask and that an that anonymousness helped,
Ellen Edenbrow: with going for that other GP. But this time I chose specifically go to,
Ellen Edenbrow: an LGBTQ plus, kind of sexual health partnership
Ellen Edenbrow: in Leeds as a charity that works with the sexual health clinic and they do
Ellen Edenbrow: a specific trans and non binary opening session. So you
Ellen Edenbrow: feel acknowledged straight away and the only, you know, questions will be asked in
Ellen Edenbrow: a considered way. But what's, what's ironic
Ellen Edenbrow: is I'm, I'm also talking to my GP at the moment and trying to help
Ellen Edenbrow: them with their kind of trans policies and, and training and stuff. And
Ellen Edenbrow: I was still getting calls from them with miss so and so, and I'm like,
Ellen Edenbrow: why why do I need a title? Also, I've been told
Ellen Edenbrow: I got the call a week or 2 later after being at the GP, and
Ellen Edenbrow: and they say, oh, yeah. I can I can see you've had that Joanne it's
Ellen Edenbrow: come back negative? So why are you ringing me again? And then that misgen like,
Ellen Edenbrow: why can't we how is this Ellen? Like, again, people think
Ellen Edenbrow: we're being nitpicky, but lots of people don't like titles for
Ellen Edenbrow: lots of different reasons. You know, we we have our first name for a
Ellen Edenbrow: reason. And, again, why do we need pink
Ellen Edenbrow: packaging for every sanitary product? You know, just a
Ellen Edenbrow: packet. Like, it it again, it it so much
Ellen Edenbrow: it's like with disabilities. Was that famous little
Ellen Edenbrow: cartoon image? It's been snowing, the snow on the steps and the
Ellen Edenbrow: snow on the ramp, and they scrape the snow off the steps first. But if
Ellen Edenbrow: you just do it on the ramp, everyone can use it. You know, they was
Ellen Edenbrow: talking about, if you think about on streets in the UK, the
Ellen Edenbrow: ramps that go down with the bumps, that's for people to use to to
Ellen Edenbrow: to see where the end of the roads are, but it helps people with prams.
Ellen Edenbrow: It helps people that are elderly, maybe just use a stick with mobility or for
Ellen Edenbrow: different reasons, mobility aids. It doesn't just
Ellen Edenbrow: help people that are like a wheelchair users. It helps so many more people and
Ellen Edenbrow: that's inclusion and diversity. When we're changing these policies, we're not doing
Ellen Edenbrow: it. You know, I I've looked at so many policies and given
Ellen Edenbrow: suggestions. It's completely intersectional. It's considering,
Ellen Edenbrow: it's advocating for fathers. It's people that adopt and
Ellen Edenbrow: carers of all different ages, because caring now, I think Jo many people
Ellen Edenbrow: have just assumed it's people with with children. But we didn't think
Ellen Edenbrow: about the aging population. We're thinking about kind of
Ellen Edenbrow: millennials and now caring for their parents and loved ones. We've
Ellen Edenbrow: all, I've always seen it from so broad, you know, even with inclusive
Ellen Edenbrow: health now. I think there's a lot of LGBTQ plus people,
Ellen Edenbrow: who do just specific LGBTQ plus training and things like that, but we
Ellen Edenbrow: really wanted to broaden it. Don't get me wrong. I think as you've
Ellen Edenbrow: kind of hinted with things at the moment, the most
Ellen Edenbrow: inquiries we are getting are LGBTQ plus with, with
Ellen Edenbrow: healthcare at the moment. And I guess for anyone listening who is
Ellen Edenbrow: LGBTQ plus, who has loved ones that are LGBTQ plus,
Ellen Edenbrow: you're hearing certain things in the media, but I promise you there's more
Ellen Edenbrow: people in health care that are trying to advocate this stuff than you are being
Ellen Edenbrow: told to believe. We are still getting a lot of interest from
Ellen Edenbrow: trusts, from health care charities that are wanting to
Ellen Edenbrow: be proactive with trans and non binary patients.
Ellen Edenbrow: So try and not take everything. So for example, the
Ellen Edenbrow: NHS rainbow badge, for those that are listening aren't aware of
Ellen Edenbrow: that, You might have seen the badge. It simply started as a project
Ellen Edenbrow: in which you just wore a lanyard. You put this badge on it that basically
Ellen Edenbrow: hinted that you will be considerate of LGBTQ plus
Ellen Edenbrow: people. It then became a bit more formal and people can do now a bit
Ellen Edenbrow: more looking at the data and what services they do and
Ellen Edenbrow: don't provide, to where with a bit more pride and reassurance of patients.
Ellen Edenbrow: And we've been told in LGBTQ plus history, not that February has been
Ellen Edenbrow: scrapped. It hasn't fully been scrapped. It's
Ellen Edenbrow: still happening. It's just happening in a different way.
Ellen Edenbrow: So I'm also not saying everything's wonderful in the healthcare, but there
Ellen Edenbrow: are a lot of people with reduced budgets, with reduced time.
Ellen Edenbrow: They are still trying their very best with this conversation and every
Ellen Edenbrow: trust is different and every trust can kind of do their
Ellen Edenbrow: own thing. So if that's kind of reassuring to anyone listening, I
Ellen Edenbrow: promise people are still caring about this stuff. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: What you see in the the mainstream media that
Joanne Lockwood: is is right of center isn't necessarily is we know it's
Joanne Lockwood: sensationalized. We know it's blown up a promotion. It is
Joanne Lockwood: worrying that the the pervasiveness of
Joanne Lockwood: this kind of negative messaging is exhausting. I mean, you probably feel
Joanne Lockwood: it. Maybe it's because of the way I set my search up and have I
Joanne Lockwood: opened things like MSN or these dashboards Yeah. Or the or the
Joanne Lockwood: negative articles I see day in, day out. And it's it's like a tone, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, it's almost like every time, so here we go again. Here we go again.
Joanne Lockwood: And also the the Joanne communities, and I
Joanne Lockwood: hate we're not really community. We're just a group of people who happen to share
Joanne Lockwood: the same oppression. That's kind of what goes on.
Joanne Lockwood: We amplify the negative stuff as well. Have you seen this stuff on there? Have
Joanne Lockwood: you seen I get more negativity out of some of the the
Joanne Lockwood: transgender forums I want on Facebook and I do if I if I didn't go
Joanne Lockwood: on there. So I think to a certain extent, we are impacting our own
Joanne Lockwood: mental health by by amplifying some of the
Joanne Lockwood: content within our own communities. And I think that that in a way,
Joanne Lockwood: it's I've got, you know, put the filter on sometimes and not dive in there.
Ellen Edenbrow: Yeah. I mean, look, Lou, it's it's been an interesting time to set
Ellen Edenbrow: up this business with my identity of being non binary and with the news
Ellen Edenbrow: in literally the past couple of weeks. We've had the CAS report come out.
Ellen Edenbrow: We've had news that they're thinking about doing private rooms for trans
Ellen Edenbrow: patients. Supposedly, again, I heard
Ellen Edenbrow: literally just 2 weeks ago that new hospital
Ellen Edenbrow: designs, they're looking at giving everyone a private room rather than the
Ellen Edenbrow: ward thing. So, you know, that could be the future of that anyway, which
Ellen Edenbrow: again, I think would benefit everyone's health. I I I've actually I
Joanne Lockwood: I I sent I sent the news about, you know, the they wanna keep wards
Joanne Lockwood: single sex, Jo they if if you if you turn to a trans person, they're
Joanne Lockwood: they're gonna put you in a private room. I was thinking, where's the
Joanne Lockwood: downside to that? I mean, I'm like I'd like to lie. I prefer I'm I
Ellen Edenbrow: I But, it depends, I guess, where those private
Ellen Edenbrow: rooms are connected to if they're in, like, a women's section or a
Ellen Edenbrow: men's section, etcetera. And I I had my,
Joanne Lockwood: gallbladder out during COVID, actually. I was I had to be
Joanne Lockwood: swabbed and stuff, and they let me in. And they wheeled me into this female
Joanne Lockwood: ward. And then 30 seconds later, they wheeled me out, said, oh, you shouldn't be
Joanne Lockwood: in here. This is a this is a women's ward. And I went, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And where else will I go? And so I I started trying to question this
Joanne Lockwood: person pushing me out out of the room with the on the trolley. And they
Joanne Lockwood: backtrack quickly and say, no. No. It's because you haven't had your COVID swap yet,
Joanne Lockwood: so we can't put you in there. Alright. Okay. That's a better answer. I'm happy
Joanne Lockwood: with that answer. So we're gonna put you in a private room. I said, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: really happy with that answer as well. You know, you can leave in this private
Joanne Lockwood: room where you like. So having experienced the
Joanne Lockwood: the confusion by the staff around who I was,
Ellen Edenbrow: I don't think I even spoken at that point. I mean, they must have I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know. Maybe they decided my brow ridge was was the wrong shape or
Joanne Lockwood: something. So they they they decided who I was without asking me. But,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I think if we're going to put people in private wards, we haven't got
Joanne Lockwood: the capacity. And what it's doing is create this fear mongering
Joanne Lockwood: around. You know, you've probably seen this as stats and data and freedom of
Joanne Lockwood: information requests. There's been there's been one complaint
Joanne Lockwood: by a a cisgendered female about a
Joanne Lockwood: trans person being on that ward. Yeah. There'd be more complaints
Joanne Lockwood: around people who have a different ethnicity or faith
Joanne Lockwood: complaining about other things related to their ethnicity around
Joanne Lockwood: something that isn't gender related. And you think, we're making this stuff up. We're
Joanne Lockwood: making these facts up for to scare people where no problem
Joanne Lockwood: actually exists. The most scared person on that world will probably be
Ellen Edenbrow: the trans woman. You know, I am
Ellen Edenbrow: regularly scared to go to the toilet. You know? I
Ellen Edenbrow: if I have to go into a toilet, I
Ellen Edenbrow: always try and talk as I go into the toilet so people can hear my
Ellen Edenbrow: voice. So I don't get as much of a look. And again, that makes me
Ellen Edenbrow: uncomfortable because that's not how I wanna be represented
Ellen Edenbrow: and look and feel. But you you
Ellen Edenbrow: there's there's so much again, it's a it's a terrible quote, but
Ellen Edenbrow: there's a there's a rapper in America called Macklemore. It's not a great reference. It's
Ellen Edenbrow: not like some incredible author, it's a rapper, but he says America, the
Ellen Edenbrow: brave still fears what it doesn't know. And I think it's so true.
Ellen Edenbrow: People fear what they don't understand. We are ish
Ellen Edenbrow: 1% of the population. So a lot of people think they've never met a trans
Ellen Edenbrow: person. They have, they've just not known it because they think we all look and
Ellen Edenbrow: sound and have to be a certain way. And as we know, that's not the
Ellen Edenbrow: case, but people just don't understand. And I think
Ellen Edenbrow: sometimes, you know, for, for those listening and if they have any budget
Ellen Edenbrow: with pride or they, they have a, an, an allyship or a privilege
Ellen Edenbrow: angle that they can get a speaker in or something, just try and get someone
Ellen Edenbrow: trans and non binary into your organisation this year. And just
Ellen Edenbrow: get people to unlearn some of their assumptions. We're just people
Ellen Edenbrow: wanting to go about, about our lives, who want a healthcare
Ellen Edenbrow: appointment about a bad back or a bad shoulder, who want to fall
Ellen Edenbrow: in love, adopt a cat, adopt a dog, have mates,
Ellen Edenbrow: have a job. That's it. That's all we want.
Ellen Edenbrow: We just wanna live. And if any, I can't wait for
Ellen Edenbrow: the trans community to stop being in the news and it just be a bit
Ellen Edenbrow: more quiet. I I, you know, I probably have a cry on
Ellen Edenbrow: a weekly basis, and I just think I just
Ellen Edenbrow: wanted it to be quiet. It just feels so
Ellen Edenbrow: loud. You know, there's incredible stats of
Ellen Edenbrow: newspapers doing 2 or 3 articles every day about trans people,
Ellen Edenbrow: and not one trans person writes them. I'm like, have you got nothing else
Ellen Edenbrow: to talk about? Like, the trans community right now are like, please talk
Ellen Edenbrow: about anything else. Cost of living, conflicts
Ellen Edenbrow: that are happening globally. Like, that's more important than us.
Ellen Edenbrow: We actually don't want this attention. We don't want this focus.
Ellen Edenbrow: And again, I think a big thing with inclusion and diversity,
Ellen Edenbrow: yes, the training's important, but sometimes just and I appreciate
Ellen Edenbrow: some people are not are not sure about inclusion, diversity dates, and calendar, and I
Ellen Edenbrow: think it's tick boxing, but there's something to be said for showing
Ellen Edenbrow: joy and celebration and normality. You
Ellen Edenbrow: know, just seeing people like me and you living their lives in
Ellen Edenbrow: happy relationships with families and loved ones, and just be like, we're
Ellen Edenbrow: normal too. We're not as scary as people make out.
Ellen Edenbrow: That's so valuable and so important. You
Ellen Edenbrow: know, showing black joy, showing disabled joy, you know,
Ellen Edenbrow: just showing how people live their lives and they're not scary.
Ellen Edenbrow: We're not scary people. You know, trans and non binary people
Ellen Edenbrow: have a really interesting outlook on life and the world.
Ellen Edenbrow: And I think, I think we're possibly some of the bravest people
Ellen Edenbrow: globally, because we have gone against everything we've ever been taught.
Ellen Edenbrow: No one ever taught us what trans was. Section 28 stopped a lot of
Ellen Edenbrow: people in terms of their education, and prior to section 28,
Ellen Edenbrow: just wasn't around, and we're still seeing the impact of section 28 in terms
Ellen Edenbrow: of education. Right? We were never taught this stuff yet,
Ellen Edenbrow: we still deeply feel it. You know,
Ellen Edenbrow: I am very proud of being LGBTQ plus I
Ellen Edenbrow: love being gay with everything about me. But at the moment, I
Ellen Edenbrow: think I would if I could if someone said, if you could click your fingers
Ellen Edenbrow: and be straight, would you? Absolutely not. I love everything about being LGBTQ plus. It's
Ellen Edenbrow: incredible that you meet people and you feel a connection to
Ellen Edenbrow: them instantly, like no one else. It's that little look you give each other being
Ellen Edenbrow: like, I understand you and you understand me, although we've never met and I don't
Ellen Edenbrow: know your name, but we just get each other a little bit. But I think
Ellen Edenbrow: I would change non binary at the moment. If I could click my finger,
Ellen Edenbrow: just so I could just stop feeling so much at all
Ellen Edenbrow: turns and all opportunities. You know? You can't welcome a
Ellen Edenbrow: plumber into your house without fear or worry of misgendered. You can't go to Tesco
Ellen Edenbrow: without fear or worry. You can't go to the park or say hello to a
Ellen Edenbrow: dog walker without fear or worry of just that misgenderedness
Ellen Edenbrow: constantly, and, you know, it's it's everywhere. And that's how I
Ellen Edenbrow: came to terms with my identity during COVID. We had these
Ellen Edenbrow: 4 walls, and I thought, who the blooming hell am I to the world?
Ellen Edenbrow: Like, how do people see me, and how do I want the world to see
Ellen Edenbrow: me? It was only when I wasn't out there in the world
Ellen Edenbrow: constantly, possibly hiding who I was,
Ellen Edenbrow: that I could start being who I was because of our without fear or worry
Ellen Edenbrow: of other people. And I think there's something incredible to learn about trans and non
Ellen Edenbrow: binary people. I think a lot of cisgender straight people could learn from
Ellen Edenbrow: us in that. I think a lot of people, the the the the
Ellen Edenbrow: boxes of femininity and masculinity, they just feel like they have
Ellen Edenbrow: to fit in them because they've not been told that they can do anything else.
Ellen Edenbrow: And I think people could learn a lot of just life skills in terms
Ellen Edenbrow: of attitude and outlook of just being authentic and brave,
Ellen Edenbrow: because we're incredibly brave people. We shouldn't have to be,
Ellen Edenbrow: but we are. Yeah. It takes a lot to press
Joanne Lockwood: pause on your life, rewrite it, and then press play again.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's like you're swapping track in the middle of, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: you you fast forwarding to another another part of the album, starting to
Joanne Lockwood: play again. You go, hang on. All the beats are different. I was just just
Joanne Lockwood: humming along to that tune, and now it's all changed. It's all Yeah. Yeah. It
Joanne Lockwood: is. And and those around you, I often talked about my I've talked about my
Joanne Lockwood: transition. Was more about other people than it was about me.
Joanne Lockwood: I kinda transitioned by spinning on the spot. Everybody else had this
Joanne Lockwood: huge arc to get over, to understand, to try and
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. The world didn't change from my perspective. It still looks the same. And
Ellen Edenbrow: what's crazy is you didn't change. You're still making the same jokes. You're
Ellen Edenbrow: still having the same opinions, like, maybe just an outwardly
Ellen Edenbrow: look change, but that was it. You used to
Joanne Lockwood: I've had this conversation with my wife many times, and she tells me not to
Joanne Lockwood: be so disingenuous that I haven't changed. And because I I have I actually I
Joanne Lockwood: have changed a lot. My my our outlook on life, the way I
Joanne Lockwood: interact with the world is is is different. The way I take up less
Joanne Lockwood: space is different. Yeah. I I am I am I am a very different person.
Joanne Lockwood: But that's through a lot of circumstances, not just Yeah. Expressing
Joanne Lockwood: my femininity. So I had to stop saying to people, I'm I'm the same
Joanne Lockwood: person on the inside because people keep looking at me and saying, that's not bollocks.
Joanne Lockwood: You know, you may you may think you may think you're the same person on
Joanne Lockwood: the inside, but we don't see it. We don't see it at all. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: not just how I look, it's how I am, which was very affirming in
Joanne Lockwood: a way. Mhmm. If you don't mind me asking, in because we kind of hinted
Ellen Edenbrow: on that earlier, didn't we, in terms of me taking space and
Ellen Edenbrow: us thinking different things in different settings and holidays and outlooks.
Ellen Edenbrow: Do you think that was something you were aware of before transitioning?
Ellen Edenbrow: You you you had that awareness of that outlook of how other
Ellen Edenbrow: people experienced the world, and you felt like you
Ellen Edenbrow: couldn't go down that path because that was not what the world expected of
Ellen Edenbrow: you, or was it a real unawareness? I
Joanne Lockwood: think I became resocialized, and I often say that the
Joanne Lockwood: challenge with transitioning, when you're growing
Joanne Lockwood: up, you you learn, and you learn, you learn, you pick
Joanne Lockwood: up information, you pick up information. But when you change transition or
Joanne Lockwood: become non binary or out yourself as non binary, you you
Joanne Lockwood: have to unlearn and then relearn. So you have to
Joanne Lockwood: forget some of the social constructs you've you've been brought up,
Joanne Lockwood: the oxygen you breathe, and relearn again. So I I had to
Joanne Lockwood: unlearn a lot of things I'd I'd I'd I'd I'd been aware
Joanne Lockwood: of. And because most of my
Joanne Lockwood: my professional network and people I hang out with tend now to be
Joanne Lockwood: women, I'm picking up the
Joanne Lockwood: social construct of being female from them, and that is
Joanne Lockwood: around minimization. It is around the jokes, the humor, the
Joanne Lockwood: conversations, the how how men are talked
Joanne Lockwood: about and how women are talked about by men. I'm more aware of that.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm more aware of the, and I don't mean
Joanne Lockwood: this in an absolute, the predatory nature nature that men often have without
Joanne Lockwood: realizing it. And they're not being deliberately, but I feel less safe in those
Joanne Lockwood: environments. I see what happens when groups of men get drunk
Joanne Lockwood: now. And I'm more aware for my safety than I ever was before.
Ellen Edenbrow: Right. So, yeah, I I am more aware of that, and I'm I'm
Joanne Lockwood: conscious of it, which I was never conscious of it in in
Joanne Lockwood: any shape or form before. I was sat
Joanne Lockwood: at dinner at Le Mans dinner probably a year ago, and it
Joanne Lockwood: got to about half 9 at the in the evening. And a couple of the
Joanne Lockwood: women I sat next to said, oh, half 9. But the thing about going
Joanne Lockwood: in a minute, it's it's gonna get messy in here. It's gonna be there's drink
Joanne Lockwood: flowing. I don't wanna be on the last train. I gotta get on the underground.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a bit late, and I'm a bit worried. If I leave it any later,
Joanne Lockwood: it's gonna be too late. I need I need I need to get out of
Joanne Lockwood: here and get home. And there was a real safety thing going on. I just
Joanne Lockwood: sort of thought, wow, that that level of socialization has never been in my
Joanne Lockwood: head. I've never never thought, uh-oh. But then having said
Joanne Lockwood: that, I've been on the late trains home some nights. I'm thinking, I actually
Joanne Lockwood: feel very worried now. Yeah. There was a drunk
Joanne Lockwood: person talking to me a bit, and then there
Joanne Lockwood: was some stuff going on. I thought, hang on a minute. I feel really, really
Joanne Lockwood: unsafe because somehow I then internalized all that thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: hang on a minute, this thing kicks
Joanne Lockwood: kicks off here. I'm not prepared to deal with this. I don't want to deal
Joanne Lockwood: with this. So, yeah, it's I became very aware of my own vulnerability
Joanne Lockwood: all of a sudden. And again, that I think
Ellen Edenbrow: that can happen to people for different reasons at different times in their
Ellen Edenbrow: life, you know, and, but it's a really unique experience
Ellen Edenbrow: at such a grand level for, for, for trans non binary people. I have a
Ellen Edenbrow: really interesting privilege when it comes to kind of things we've just been talking about
Ellen Edenbrow: in terms of, look, I, I came out at 14 as
Ellen Edenbrow: gay, 15 from, from the age of 2 or 3.
Ellen Edenbrow: I was saying to my mum what I wanted to wear and not wear. Like,
Ellen Edenbrow: I very much knew who I was before I was taught or
Ellen Edenbrow: learned anything. And in society, I mean, there was no
Ellen Edenbrow: representation, but I still knew I wanted to wear that Buzz Lightyear t
Ellen Edenbrow: shirt and not that dress from like 2 or 3.
Ellen Edenbrow: And I've I've always been quite butch in my identity. I have quite
Ellen Edenbrow: short hair from from quite a young Joanne. And
Ellen Edenbrow: I've never there's not one woman I don't know,
Ellen Edenbrow: trans or cis, that hasn't had an experience of some kind of
Ellen Edenbrow: assault, sexual assault. And what's fascinating is that I
Ellen Edenbrow: never have. And I think it's really interesting to talk about
Ellen Edenbrow: sexualization. I think because of my butch
Ellen Edenbrow: identity, and I'm sitting down, but I've got a bit of a butch walk
Ellen Edenbrow: that I don't even realize I have, I've never I've
Ellen Edenbrow: never really been sexualized. Now the last time I was kind of sexualized
Ellen Edenbrow: was I wore the last time I ever wore a dress at university,
Ellen Edenbrow: I was in a hockey team, and there was, like, a sports night, and I
Ellen Edenbrow: wore a dress, and that was 2013. And some of
Ellen Edenbrow: my male friends what was interesting is barely any of the men there was, like,
Ellen Edenbrow: 6 hockey teams on the men's and the women's side. It was very
Ellen Edenbrow: binary, obviously. And barely any of the men were interested in talking to me, because
Ellen Edenbrow: I was the only gay out person. So that I was never
Ellen Edenbrow: gonna be someone they were gonna possibly have any relations with. So barely
Ellen Edenbrow: any of them got to know me. And I really noticed that, compared to
Ellen Edenbrow: everybody else, no one ever really spoke to me. But there was 2 or 3
Ellen Edenbrow: that still got to know me, And they changed that night. I was in a
Ellen Edenbrow: dress. Their whole approach to me changed, it complete and I never wore a
Ellen Edenbrow: dress again. I still worry and fear, you know, late
Ellen Edenbrow: nights walking down certain alleys I'm I, you know, I I would still avoid and
Ellen Edenbrow: and and I still check-in with my friends. But because
Ellen Edenbrow: I'm not not many men would be sexually attracted to
Ellen Edenbrow: me, I feel safer, if that makes
Ellen Edenbrow: sense. So I I I've I've I've
Ellen Edenbrow: I've grown up that way and I've been taught that and I've been around many
Ellen Edenbrow: conversations. I've been really privy to so many people's experiences of it's
Ellen Edenbrow: getting dark and I've been really aware of that, But I'm in this
Ellen Edenbrow: really bizarre privileged group. It's
Ellen Edenbrow: really weird slither of because of my masculinity, I feel safer
Ellen Edenbrow: That I won't but I there's still the worry that I'll get the the non
Ellen Edenbrow: binary transphobia side of things, but in terms of my body. And then that's
Ellen Edenbrow: really interesting because you kind of mentioned surgery earlier, and a really interesting
Ellen Edenbrow: reflection for those that don't know. So I had top surgery, had my, my
Ellen Edenbrow: breast removed, and I went private because the
Ellen Edenbrow: NHS, it would take many, many years, and my mental health couldn't cope with
Ellen Edenbrow: that. And I had to pay for a psychiatrist appointment. So
Ellen Edenbrow: I had to pay for a stranger to speak to me for an hour to
Ellen Edenbrow: agree with how I felt about myself. And was I was ironic that he barely
Ellen Edenbrow: knew what non binary was, but he was supposedly the professional.
Ellen Edenbrow: And I I remember he would ask me to repeat things in
Ellen Edenbrow: our call because he's like, oh, I'll let I'll write that down. I basically
Ellen Edenbrow: wrote my own referral letter that the surgeon needed because the surgeon
Ellen Edenbrow: was worried about being sued and things like that. And it's kind of
Ellen Edenbrow: a they don't wanna do that, the surgeons, because I think they have a really
Ellen Edenbrow: good understanding, but they're just they're so much fear and worry at the moment. They
Ellen Edenbrow: have to have that. And I thought it was really fascinating is because I was
Ellen Edenbrow: removing something that society has sexualized, I had to
Ellen Edenbrow: be psychologically evaluated that if I was okay. But
Ellen Edenbrow: if you want a bum lift, if you want a nose job, if you want
Ellen Edenbrow: filler, if you want a boob enhancement, none of that is done.
Ellen Edenbrow: People get their knees operated on to be taller.
Ellen Edenbrow: Right? A lot of cisgendered men have these operations to get their, you
Ellen Edenbrow: know, hair lines done to make them feel more confident in their gender.
Ellen Edenbrow: Right? So many people do so many so much
Ellen Edenbrow: stuff. I think it's just trans non binary people that say we have gender
Ellen Edenbrow: affirming health care, which old language was things
Ellen Edenbrow: like sex change, but gender affirming health care is basically the idea
Ellen Edenbrow: that people do things to feel more confident in their bodies. And
Ellen Edenbrow: cisgender people do that too. Getting your
Ellen Edenbrow: nails done, getting your hair done. We all feel better after a haircut.
Ellen Edenbrow: People get filler because they're worried about their lips or Botox because their wrinkles.
Ellen Edenbrow: Everyone does gender affirming health care, you know,
Ellen Edenbrow: yet because I was removing something that's sexualized, I had to be
Ellen Edenbrow: evaluated. But people can change their bodies in many different
Ellen Edenbrow: ways, and that doesn't need to be checked. And, again, that's the sexualization that
Ellen Edenbrow: comes in with health care, which is really fascinating. Yeah. I think we
Joanne Lockwood: we have to respect the fact that there are some people
Joanne Lockwood: who transitioning either
Joanne Lockwood: binary transitioning or non binary transitioning, is not
Joanne Lockwood: right for them. We have to accept that it's not right for everybody. And I'm
Joanne Lockwood: the first one to say, if you don't need to, don't. Yeah. It's not it's
Joanne Lockwood: not a party. It's not one long gay parade that you're you're
Joanne Lockwood: riding a wave of of of unicorns and and and
Joanne Lockwood: fluffy stuff all the time. It's real life, you know. If and if you don't
Joanne Lockwood: need to, it's not necessary if you don't do anything. So I, you know, I
Joanne Lockwood: I'm hugely respectful of people who have
Joanne Lockwood: evaluated their life, their needs, what matters to them, and it's
Joanne Lockwood: not for them. I'm hugely respectful for that. And I also believe that everyone should
Joanne Lockwood: be given the opportunity to be in that questioning phase of their life
Joanne Lockwood: for however long it takes and move forward or move
Joanne Lockwood: backwards or move sideways or do what they want. So I'm I'm actually I'm
Joanne Lockwood: extremely protective of that right, but, yeah, it it does become
Joanne Lockwood: problematic sometimes when we're focusing on the the the significant
Joanne Lockwood: minority of the minority who where who have
Joanne Lockwood: are litigating against health care professionals,
Joanne Lockwood: claiming that they they were forced into a root when
Joanne Lockwood: inevitably actually, they they they must have lied
Joanne Lockwood: through their health care evaluation in order to be taken seriously. I've been through psychiatric
Joanne Lockwood: evaluations for to get hormones. I've been through psychiatric
Joanne Lockwood: evaluations to discuss surgery and various other things.
Joanne Lockwood: And they would only put me through if I if they put
Joanne Lockwood: if they recognize that I understood I have informed consent. I understand the
Joanne Lockwood: implications. They're quite clear. This could kill you,
Joanne Lockwood: that this could cause irreparable damage. You will never be able to reverse this.
Joanne Lockwood: You will never be able to have have children again. Yes. I understand all those
Joanne Lockwood: things. Yes. So you go through this really deep thing. And it's not just
Joanne Lockwood: once. It's you know, I've I think I've had 7
Joanne Lockwood: gender identity clinic appointments to get to where I am,
Joanne Lockwood: and they ask very similar questions. And it's it's not like they're week week in
Joanne Lockwood: week out. This is, like, years between them. I have to be very
Joanne Lockwood: pervasive. I have to be I I can't just sort of say, oh, yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: want to do this next month. I can't. I I have to think I wanna
Joanne Lockwood: do this next decade. No one would if we had choice,
Ellen Edenbrow: no one would do this. We spend a crazy amount of money
Ellen Edenbrow: and time and energy, and we have to be
Ellen Edenbrow: so vulnerable. No one goes into this stuff easily. It's
Ellen Edenbrow: not a, it's not a whim decision. Oh, I'm going to go on
Ellen Edenbrow: holiday next week. Like this is stuff that it's months, it's years in waiting, even
Ellen Edenbrow: when you pay privately, you know, it's, it's not an easy decision
Ellen Edenbrow: to go under the knife and have major surgery. You know, it's not something I
Ellen Edenbrow: just thought, oh, I fancy having a bit of time off work. I'll go and
Ellen Edenbrow: have major operation, you know, loads of muscles cut.
Ellen Edenbrow: And, you know, like, it's not something and there's, you know, there's some crazy
Ellen Edenbrow: stats have come out. Let's see if I've got them quickly on my phone. But
Ellen Edenbrow: in terms of how many people regret
Ellen Edenbrow: surgery, it is so slim, and I don't
Ellen Edenbrow: can't find the stuff, but it's such a small amount. More people regret
Ellen Edenbrow: having a shoe. Less than 1%. Less than 1%. Less than 1%. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. People regret having a haircut Right. More.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Having a treatment. Yeah. You say it's well,
Joanne Lockwood: I had a I don't know if I was a psychologist around considering my
Joanne Lockwood: my future options or where I wanted to take myself. And
Joanne Lockwood: one thing they said, which I thought was really weird at the time, was think
Joanne Lockwood: about yourself in your old age when you're when
Joanne Lockwood: you're then in a care home, in a nursing home, whatever.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you want to be? Who do you who are you at that point?
Joanne Lockwood: And I thought and I thought, And he was encouraging me to think about the
Joanne Lockwood: choices I made based on my later life. And I
Joanne Lockwood: didn't do anything about drama. I thought it was a bit cheeky and a bit
Joanne Lockwood: transphobic the way he was talking to me. But I've recently, in the last 18
Joanne Lockwood: months, been thrown into Sam's generation. Well, we've been looking after
Joanne Lockwood: our parents, our elderly parents in their late eighties and early
Joanne Lockwood: nineties, in care homes, in nursing homes. And it made
Joanne Lockwood: me realize that if I want agency over myself,
Joanne Lockwood: I have to make those decisions today. Yeah. Because when I get to that point
Joanne Lockwood: in the future, I will have less opportunity
Joanne Lockwood: to advocate for what matters to me unless I've made those proactive choices
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Now, not later. It really made me
Joanne Lockwood: realize around some of the things I have to do around about for
Joanne Lockwood: my advocacy and agency and self empowerment later, not for
Joanne Lockwood: now. And that I had a I had a similar
Ellen Edenbrow: moment, but reflection of question to myself in terms of when someone
Ellen Edenbrow: asked that to you about what age Joanne what situation, who and how do you
Ellen Edenbrow: wanna be? I had that with, if we have a child and I want
Ellen Edenbrow: to have skin on skin, cause I don't wanna carry, how do I want my
Ellen Edenbrow: body to be? And I wouldn't I would feel like my baby
Ellen Edenbrow: wasn't close to me if I didn't have my top surgery.
Ellen Edenbrow: Even my mum, like after seeing me out, you know,
Ellen Edenbrow: bandages off the first time was like, I wish I could have get, I wish
Ellen Edenbrow: I could have ordered this for you because it makes so much sense, you know?
Ellen Edenbrow: And part of her upset and worry about my surgery was, of course, to
Ellen Edenbrow: seeing your child go under major surgery, you worry and fear as with every operation
Ellen Edenbrow: there's risk, but it was, she was upset that she'd
Ellen Edenbrow: brought me into a world in a way that I wasn't happy with myself. And
Ellen Edenbrow: that was her upset. And I think what's interesting, secondly, is what
Ellen Edenbrow: you're talking about there is my work is work in the hospice at the moment.
Ellen Edenbrow: At the start of the year, we had our first, My my auntie was in
Ellen Edenbrow: hospice, and there was a lot of ableism with her care, with
Ellen Edenbrow: her learning disability, and that's an inquest at the moment. And we're looking at working
Ellen Edenbrow: with that hospice. And it really
Ellen Edenbrow: that is what there's something we're all gonna experience, right,
Ellen Edenbrow: is death. Unfortunately, only a small amount of people experience
Ellen Edenbrow: hospices, and I don't know if you've had experienced hospices, but they're beautiful. Like, they're
Ellen Edenbrow: incredible. Everyone, if they can't die at home, deserves to
Ellen Edenbrow: die in a hospice, because it's also so vital for everyone that's
Ellen Edenbrow: left, because that's what happens after. And those people that are left,
Ellen Edenbrow: like, hospices are incredible. I actually missed going in, which is a really
Ellen Edenbrow: weird thing to say, but I like, the next day after my auntie passed, I
Ellen Edenbrow: was like, I wanna go back. They also have great hot chocolates, but
Ellen Edenbrow: I missed it. And and we were thinking recently, like, if that's
Ellen Edenbrow: me, even if I if I'm at a space where, you know, I
Ellen Edenbrow: can't hear and I can't understand things anymore, if I'm if I'm getting
Ellen Edenbrow: misgendered in front of Anna, my wife, like, that will hurt
Ellen Edenbrow: her. Like, that's health care. It's not just the patient.
Ellen Edenbrow: It's also those around them, seeing them, hearing them,
Ellen Edenbrow: seeing their relationships. You know, if you got a loved one on
Ellen Edenbrow: the side of the bed, not being like, oh, is your husband coming in? Like,
Ellen Edenbrow: don't assume that. There's already enough going on. It's just gonna make them
Ellen Edenbrow: feel like they're not heard or seen or respected.
Ellen Edenbrow: And I know there's that assumption, but don't assume it's
Ellen Edenbrow: 2024. We can still ask open questions,
Ellen Edenbrow: and that's health care. Again, so much what we want to do with
Ellen Edenbrow: inclusive health is, yes, there's little you know, there needs to be
Ellen Edenbrow: improvements when it comes to medical students, you know, in terms of
Ellen Edenbrow: the images that they see, you know, for skin cancers, it's always on white skin.
Ellen Edenbrow: Like that needs to be advanced. That needs to be improved on.
Ellen Edenbrow: But it's just the questions and the considerations that
Ellen Edenbrow: can change things. And it's just the tone and the approach
Ellen Edenbrow: that can that's the trust. That's the bit where trust comes from, isn't it? As
Ellen Edenbrow: a patient. Because you're Jo vulnerable with your health
Ellen Edenbrow: care. Right? Like you were saying, you just got wheeled out. Like, you
Ellen Edenbrow: were laying down. Like, you couldn't stop it. There was no breaks for you. You
Ellen Edenbrow: You know, you're really vulnerable in health care because it's it's
Ellen Edenbrow: it's other people prodding and poking you, and I feel so lucky to
Ellen Edenbrow: have Anna to advocate for me who knows this stuff. But when you don't know
Ellen Edenbrow: health care stuff, you're really putting your body on the line for people to make
Ellen Edenbrow: decisions about you, and you lose all of your
Ellen Edenbrow: own self. You know? So if I have
Ellen Edenbrow: someone else also see you when you can't make the
Ellen Edenbrow: decisions or have even that's vital. And that's
Ellen Edenbrow: what inclusive health is about. It's just saying, look, have that awareness, have
Ellen Edenbrow: that acknowledgement. Because if you don't, this is the impact. You know, we saw more
Ellen Edenbrow: people of color die during COVID. There were several reasons for that.
Ellen Edenbrow: They were more likely to have front facing public facing roles to put them
Ellen Edenbrow: at risk and stuff, but it was the comms. It was the messaging. It
Ellen Edenbrow: was not acknowledging what fear certain communities had over
Ellen Edenbrow: medicalized spaces, because think about the colonization
Ellen Edenbrow: of health care in the past and, you know, not having that awareness.
Ellen Edenbrow: You don't have to understand everything with I and d. To be an
Ellen Edenbrow: ally, as I'm sure you'll admit, Jo and me, I do not know everything about
Ellen Edenbrow: inclusion and diversity. It's a blooming impossible. There's 8,000,000,000 of
Ellen Edenbrow: us, but you can understand without having you can respect without having
Ellen Edenbrow: to understand everything. I can respect someone's faith. I don't have to
Ellen Edenbrow: understand every single bit of the Quran, but I can respect that that person has
Ellen Edenbrow: that, you know, and there's good and bad with everyone. There'll be
Ellen Edenbrow: bad trans people. I don't like to admit it, but there will be, there'll be
Ellen Edenbrow: not some very nice trans people. There'll be not some very nice disabled people and
Ellen Edenbrow: Muslim people and x, y, and zed. But
Ellen Edenbrow: there's more good than bad, And it's just it's just
Ellen Edenbrow: humanness. It's just seeing a person. There's always so much more in common
Ellen Edenbrow: than not. I I I'm a I'm a big advocate at what you say. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: I have Joanne inherent belief that people are start off
Joanne Lockwood: wanting to do good, wanting to be kind, and that in their mind, they
Joanne Lockwood: are. They're speaking through their lived experience, their lens. They
Joanne Lockwood: believe they're doing the right thing. And it's just that their their
Joanne Lockwood: perspective, their opinion is slightly different to mine.
Joanne Lockwood: But we all want the same thing. As you say, there's more there's more that
Joanne Lockwood: unites us than than different differentiates us. So we've got to focus on the fact
Joanne Lockwood: that, actually, we all want the same thing. Happy life,
Joanne Lockwood: health, world peace. We all inherently want that, and we think we're doing
Joanne Lockwood: it in our way. Yeah. And it's avoiding sort of weaponizing
Joanne Lockwood: or discriminating for our own self to
Joanne Lockwood: somebody else, putting somebody else's down for our benefit, if you like.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, it's, it's, that's all that's all the I and D is around. It's
Joanne Lockwood: around creating a culture of belonging. People feel
Joanne Lockwood: welcomed. They feel celebrated. They feel they can thrive who they are.
Joanne Lockwood: And people will spot any inequities and give them the support they need to be
Joanne Lockwood: able to succeed in that. And I think that's fundamentally what we're talking about here,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? And it's not it's not about hashtags and
Joanne Lockwood: parties and cakes and banners and marches and and
Joanne Lockwood: changing language to make people feel uncomfortable. It's just creating
Joanne Lockwood: a I always talk about adjective language. I'm not sure that's a word,
Joanne Lockwood: additional language. So it's not you're not removing the word mother
Joanne Lockwood: and chase and changing mother for childbirth or child bearer or whatever the words
Joanne Lockwood: are. It's saying mothers and and mechanizing there are other people who don't
Joanne Lockwood: identify as a mother. Not taking away the word mother, just putting the
Joanne Lockwood: making sure the the expansiveness of the language being used
Joanne Lockwood: encompasses everybody without creating an an other. We don't wanna
Joanne Lockwood: be othered. We want to be anded. Or It's a bit
Joanne Lockwood: like all that fear. I mean, quite
Ellen Edenbrow: a few years ago now, it was kind of a big one. Oh,
Ellen Edenbrow: primary schools can't say Christmas anymore. And there was this like,
Ellen Edenbrow: all this fear and it's like, oh, we can't say mother's day anymore. No, no
Ellen Edenbrow: one's blooming saying that. Like, these communities are
Ellen Edenbrow: actually saying that. It's just, you know, I I saw recently
Ellen Edenbrow: that nearly like 60% of all journalists are privately
Ellen Edenbrow: educated. You know, even just that in terms of
Ellen Edenbrow: their understanding of the world and their experience of the world when they're
Ellen Edenbrow: writing from a journalist point of view is wholly different to the majority of the
Ellen Edenbrow: population. That's only one angle of a person's background and
Ellen Edenbrow: awareness. It's just to anyone listening,
Ellen Edenbrow: And look, the most people listening to this will be people that already get it,
Ellen Edenbrow: but all ads, and unfortunately, but there'll be people and we
Ellen Edenbrow: all have family and friends who who maybe don't get it to the same degree.
Ellen Edenbrow: And it's just opening their eyes to be a bit more critical
Ellen Edenbrow: to what they're seeing. They're they're especially again, and this is
Ellen Edenbrow: the importance of allyship. 99% of people are cisgendered.
Ellen Edenbrow: Those little 1%. We have done a lot. Don't get me
Ellen Edenbrow: wrong. We it's actually quite incredible, the the coverage of our movement.
Ellen Edenbrow: Yes. It doesn't seem positive right now, but the handful of
Ellen Edenbrow: people that have have got that story out there and that language out there,
Ellen Edenbrow: it's rather remarkable what they've done, but we can't
Ellen Edenbrow: change that anymore for us now. We now need the 99%, and
Ellen Edenbrow: that's in boardrooms. That's as a manager. You know, the women's
Ellen Edenbrow: movement can't change without men. The LGBTQ plus movement can't move
Ellen Edenbrow: without the straight community, and that's that importance of allyship.
Ellen Edenbrow: We're here. So allies listening right now, book an LGBTQ
Ellen Edenbrow: plus person. Doesn't have to be in pride. It could be another time. We don't
Ellen Edenbrow: have to talk about being LGBTQ plus. We can talk about other things,
Ellen Edenbrow: recruitment training, you know, whatever it is. But
Ellen Edenbrow: having an LGBTQ plus voice and just normalizing us is
Ellen Edenbrow: vital. Giving us a platform, you know, and and that's,
Ellen Edenbrow: that's also really important. We don't always just have to talk about
Ellen Edenbrow: this. We can talk about other stuff and show that
Ellen Edenbrow: awareness, but there's a time and place for us to talk about this too. And,
Ellen Edenbrow: yeah, this stuff benefits everybody. But I do sometimes
Ellen Edenbrow: wonder, do we need to change the language? I appreciate it was EDNI,
Ellen Edenbrow: then I and D and DNI, and it always changes, but it's got such bad
Ellen Edenbrow: press. Do we need to rebrand? What don't ask me what
Ellen Edenbrow: to. What do we need to rebrand to make people realize
Ellen Edenbrow: that this stuff benefits everybody? When we're looking at menopause
Ellen Edenbrow: policies, we are editing it to change it and help everybody.
Ellen Edenbrow: Perimenopause, for example, you know, wasn't really a thing that
Ellen Edenbrow: it was always assumed it was people of a certain age. We're now realizing that
Ellen Edenbrow: isn't always the case. You know, endometriosis and how that
Ellen Edenbrow: impacts people. It's we're not always doing it from one angle.
Ellen Edenbrow: You know, I'm sure that when you look at things, you're seeing it from many
Ellen Edenbrow: different angles, even though you've maybe nobody asked or paid to do it from one
Ellen Edenbrow: angle. You've said, actually, I've also seen this. I'd recommend this. You
Ellen Edenbrow: know, we are trying to just help everybody because especially,
Ellen Edenbrow: you know, moving to self employedness really, and COVID was a great
Ellen Edenbrow: realization that a lot of people spend more time in work than they do with
Ellen Edenbrow: their loved ones. Especially those that are still forced into offices.
Ellen Edenbrow: That's a lot of your life. And at the start of this podcast, I said,
Ellen Edenbrow: we have 2 things in life, time and health. It's really all we've
Ellen Edenbrow: got. And that was a choice for me to become self employed was
Ellen Edenbrow: and I appreciate I'm only 28, and maybe COVID, I had an early
Ellen Edenbrow: realization, some people don't have that until later life. And I was like, all we
Ellen Edenbrow: have is time. And I feel very vulnerable with my health
Ellen Edenbrow: because there's sometimes there's things that you you can't stop it. You can't prevent
Ellen Edenbrow: it. We can look after our bodies as much as we can, but it's a
Ellen Edenbrow: blooming lottery. Isn't it? If we have good health or bad health, and we never
Ellen Edenbrow: know when that's gonna come, but it's a really vulnerable thing to be at. So
Ellen Edenbrow: again, if inclusive health can change one health
Ellen Edenbrow: professional of how they see something or assume something in
Ellen Edenbrow: later life, If that could save a life
Ellen Edenbrow: or build trust for a future life saving thing, you don't know
Ellen Edenbrow: what impact that's gonna have. And so much of allyship is you never
Ellen Edenbrow: get a pat on the back with allyship because you might never know the
Ellen Edenbrow: outcome of your actions or your words, but I promise
Ellen Edenbrow: you people will feel it and will experience
Ellen Edenbrow: it. And I remember one, the
Ellen Edenbrow: I did some training for a new job to a random organisation. I can't
Ellen Edenbrow: remember who they were. And I got an email the next day from someone that
Ellen Edenbrow: was on that call that said, I joined your session yesterday. Job done.
Ellen Edenbrow: I could retire now. Didn't have
Ellen Edenbrow: the money to retire, but I job done. I could retire now. Didn't have the
Ellen Edenbrow: money to retire, but I've maybe helped one little
Ellen Edenbrow: boy's mental health and that he feel like he can say, who is this? Just
Ellen Edenbrow: family. He can bring someone home that he loves. That family,
Ellen Edenbrow: maybe have a better unity in the future as a result. That
Ellen Edenbrow: that's life changing. To several people, that could be life
Ellen Edenbrow: changing. Thankfully, they emailed me and told me that, and it stayed with me and
Ellen Edenbrow: it always will. But you may not get that email, but just
Ellen Edenbrow: know that you feel it. Our Airbnb
Ellen Edenbrow: host gave us that bottle of Prosecco, probably didn't realize how much it meant to
Ellen Edenbrow: us, but that'll stay with me, that there is hope. Ellen,
Joanne Lockwood: thank you. What a what a conversation. I've really enjoyed How can people
Joanne Lockwood: get hold of you? Tell us about your your company website, your LinkedIn profile. How
Joanne Lockwood: do people get in touch? Yeah. So we're on ww.inclusivehealth.co.uk.
Ellen Edenbrow: You'll find us there on shock horror, but not many people
Ellen Edenbrow: have the name Ellen Edenbrow. I'm rarity. Jo do check me out. I'm there
Ellen Edenbrow: to find also Inclusive Health on LinkedIn. And look at the moment, we, as as
Ellen Edenbrow: you'll probably know, Joe,
Ellen Edenbrow: And, look, at the moment, we as as you'll probably know, Joe, when you started
Ellen Edenbrow: this stuff, we're putting ourselves out there. We're not sure where we're gonna go and
Ellen Edenbrow: how we're gonna get there, and we're kind of reacting to what people
Ellen Edenbrow: want. Every charity, every trust, every organisation wants
Ellen Edenbrow: something different. We're doing it to spoke to to what they need, their
Ellen Edenbrow: needs, their wants. I'm also looking at building my own website at the moment,
Ellen Edenbrow: Ellen Edenbrow, because, as I said, I've worked in private sector. I've worked in charity
Ellen Edenbrow: sector, public sector. I've consulted with 28 businesses
Ellen Edenbrow: for 2 years on everything that they're doing, and
Ellen Edenbrow: it's it's just again, it's it's it's talking about recruitment.
Ellen Edenbrow: It's talking about law. It's talking about your banter and your bullying, but
Ellen Edenbrow: just having someone that's Joanne, non binary, giving that intersectionality
Ellen Edenbrow: and putting that out there. But we're really excited with healthcare
Ellen Edenbrow: and It's it's really exciting to see, you know, I'm
Ellen Edenbrow: doing a session soon and supporting people that give
Ellen Edenbrow: group and support to young people that are in families and
Ellen Edenbrow: communities with drug and alcohol abuse and supporting their
Ellen Edenbrow: LGBTQ plus service users. And
Ellen Edenbrow: the the power of that's incredible of who who that's gonna help and how it's
Ellen Edenbrow: gonna help. We're talking to hospices. So just giving people dignity to
Ellen Edenbrow: their health care. Thank you once again. As we
Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my
Joanne Lockwood: deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion strike a chord. Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing
Joanne Lockwood: community, driving real change. Share this journey with
Joanne Lockwood: friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices
Joanne Lockwood: that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a
Joanne Lockwood: vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.