Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your
Joanne Lockwood: sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the
Joanne Lockwood: heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal
Joanne Lockwood: transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create
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Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 126 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title, reframing our world. And
Joanne Lockwood: I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Lina
Joanne Lockwood: Jankauskeite. Lina is a trained psychologist, a
Joanne Lockwood: certified holistic life coach, psychoeducator,
Joanne Lockwood: trainer, a speaker, and a dreamer.
Joanne Lockwood: When I asked Lina to describe her superpower, she said, it is her
Joanne Lockwood: undefeatable belief that in humans, both individually
Joanne Lockwood: and collectively, that at their core are good,
Joanne Lockwood: giving, willing, and caring. Hello,
Joanne Lockwood: Lena. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Well, thank you for
Lina Jankauskeite: having me. Absolute pleasure. We we did practice your
Joanne Lockwood: surname a couple of times in the in the green room before we came on.
Joanne Lockwood: I was determined to get it right. So reframing our world,
Joanne Lockwood: you've obviously got a a rich heritage and past.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell us about yourself and what you believe in.
Lina Jankauskeite: In terms of, I was gonna say in terms on who I am.
Lina Jankauskeite: I suppose there's those sort of demographic or biographical
Lina Jankauskeite: things, which is, I originate from Lithuania. I came to the UK
Lina Jankauskeite: nearly 20 years ago. And I
Lina Jankauskeite: I suppose I matured in the UK. I was 20 when I came, and I
Lina Jankauskeite: matured here in the UK. And I
Lina Jankauskeite: I can hardly remember myself for what I was before because
Lina Jankauskeite: I think I changed quite a bit seeing the world around
Lina Jankauskeite: me, been exposed to a lot more in the
Lina Jankauskeite: UK than I have been in Lithuania because I grew up in a small, small
Lina Jankauskeite: town. Provincial, very small town. So I
Lina Jankauskeite: always say that whilst Lithuania is always going to be my home, the
Lina Jankauskeite: UK is really what made me up to this point what I am.
Lina Jankauskeite: And, yes, as you said, I am a dreamer,
Lina Jankauskeite: and I dream about exactly that. Like, the tar title of the episode
Lina Jankauskeite: really speaks to it really well. I I want, as
Lina Jankauskeite: cliche as it sounds, I want to change the world
Lina Jankauskeite: to leave that little bit better place than I found it.
Lina Jankauskeite: So however little I can contribute to it, it all adds up.
Lina Jankauskeite: Again, loads of cliches, but, I just truly believe in that. And,
Lina Jankauskeite: I'll I'll try to do my best in in that changing of the
Lina Jankauskeite: world by helping people to really, to to see the
Lina Jankauskeite: opportunities on on how they can contribute
Lina Jankauskeite: to changing the world. And I know it sounds really abstract, but
Lina Jankauskeite: that's just because it's a big it's it's it's a big game to change the
Lina Jankauskeite: world. So, yeah, at the minute, it sounds a bit
Lina Jankauskeite: abstract, but there's many things I'm doing. As you said, I'm a coach. I
Lina Jankauskeite: fancy myself, a self leadership coach because
Lina Jankauskeite: I think that's where it all starts, from self leadership because that's
Lina Jankauskeite: where how you relate to the rest of the world, your environment,
Lina Jankauskeite: to to the fellow human, to to the tree out, you
Lina Jankauskeite: know, outside. It all comes down to that. How you relate
Lina Jankauskeite: to the rest of the world starts with self leadership. So I think that's my
Lina Jankauskeite: starting point in in changing the world. Interesting.
Joanne Lockwood: My knowledge of Lithuania is is tiny. I think
Joanne Lockwood: I was I went for a, I think, a 3 day conference.
Joanne Lockwood: This is probably best
Joanne Lockwood: part, 20 years ago, so probably by the time you're still there.
Joanne Lockwood: It's so the capital is, Vilnius. Is that right, Vilnius? Right. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Vilnius. And it's a very old traditional
Joanne Lockwood: kind of Baltic y sort of state and, yeah, large
Joanne Lockwood: squares, cobbles, ancient architecture, beautiful
Joanne Lockwood: construction churches, and things. I remember it being very iconic
Joanne Lockwood: when I was there, but I'd say it was mainly a quick tour of the
Joanne Lockwood: center and a tour of the nightlife and a tour of,
Joanne Lockwood: had some a couple of boring meetings to attend as well. So, yeah, it was
Joanne Lockwood: a a quick in and out. I'd love to go back. I spent I spent
Joanne Lockwood: a bit of time in Estonia, mainly in Tallinn and and the surrounding
Joanne Lockwood: area, and I did pop to, Viga once as
Joanne Lockwood: well in, in Latvia. So, yeah, it's,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I I I've always got a fun place in my heart for
Joanne Lockwood: those regions because of the people. I've I've found the people really warm,
Joanne Lockwood: easy to connect to, and not at all how I
Joanne Lockwood: imagined. It's very forward thinking certainly in the last
Joanne Lockwood: 10, 15 years. A lot of tech startups
Joanne Lockwood: and developing economy there. Yeah. That is a it's it's phenomenal. And
Joanne Lockwood: you're right. You you must have had this, complete transformation
Joanne Lockwood: about how you saw the world, as you say, coming from rural Lithuania
Joanne Lockwood: to to entering sort of like the UK and the hustle and bustle
Joanne Lockwood: of of of of the hell on life, if you like?
Lina Jankauskeite: It it was. It was very much so because,
Lina Jankauskeite: the town I grew up in is considered the 8th or the 9th biggest town
Lina Jankauskeite: in Lithuania, but because Lithuania is tiny. I think the
Lina Jankauskeite: population when I was still there, it was about 35,000, which now has
Lina Jankauskeite: dropped to below 30,000. And like I said, it's
Lina Jankauskeite: considered 8th or 9th biggest town in Lithuania, so
Lina Jankauskeite: just for people get the idea of scale. And
Lina Jankauskeite: and it was very I mean, I I I had a great
Lina Jankauskeite: time growing up, and, and I'm
Lina Jankauskeite: still very fond of my hometown even though there's no one and nothing
Lina Jankauskeite: there now for me when I go back. But, yeah, when
Lina Jankauskeite: I first because when I first arrived in the UK, I found myself in
Lina Jankauskeite: London as most of us do. So the
Lina Jankauskeite: contrast was was wow. However,
Lina Jankauskeite: what's the the what I didn't expect was because I knew
Lina Jankauskeite: Britain through watching because I was an hard die
Lina Jankauskeite: hard fan of Sherlock Holmes series. So I
Lina Jankauskeite: expected it to arrive on the 4th September. Actually, I can't remember
Lina Jankauskeite: the year, but I remember the date. It was the 4th September. And I was
Lina Jankauskeite: expecting it to be, you know, this narrow
Lina Jankauskeite: streets, cobble streets as well that's sort of
Lina Jankauskeite: grayish, darkish with this mist
Lina Jankauskeite: you know, everything covered in mist. And they arrived, and it was, like,
Lina Jankauskeite: 30 yard degrees. I think it's one of the hottest summers or hottest ends
Lina Jankauskeite: of summers that's, you know, on record at the time. And I was like,
Lina Jankauskeite: woah. What the hell? That's not what I expected.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, there are parts of London that are sort of narrow streets and
Joanne Lockwood: cobbles, especially in the kind of the square mile rush in the city. There's a
Joanne Lockwood: real kind of intricate little cobbled areas. You
Joanne Lockwood: know, a lot of London got rebuilt after the fire, London
Joanne Lockwood: after the war, and things like this. But, yeah, you can still find those
Joanne Lockwood: old streets, but, yeah, we're not, even
Joanne Lockwood: even the mythical, 2 was it 221
Joanne Lockwood: or whatever is, Baker Street? I think it's the 221 B. Is it Baker
Joanne Lockwood: Street or whatever the address is? That's in a quite a wide
Joanne Lockwood: road. It's in a row. I mean, yeah, the row it's in is is
Joanne Lockwood: very old traditional Victorian type of architecture. I don't know if you've
Joanne Lockwood: done the Sherlock Holmes Museum. I did the Sherlock Holmes Museum or the that
Joanne Lockwood: visit that place, probably 10, 15 years ago. It's it's a it's a
Joanne Lockwood: good little good opportunity to sort of see Victorian life if
Joanne Lockwood: you'll help people for the Victorian era lived because it's still kitted out in that
Joanne Lockwood: way. But yeah. No. No. I don't think we're we're we're we're
Joanne Lockwood: probably not at all like our our stereotypes you see in the movies or on
Joanne Lockwood: the telly. The yes. In my experience,
Lina Jankauskeite: not I mean, the obviously, they are it's hard to tell
Lina Jankauskeite: because when I first came, like I said, I was 20. So I knew
Lina Jankauskeite: very little. It was it was going to be a 6 months break, and then
Lina Jankauskeite: I was going to go back and reenroll uni, which I
Lina Jankauskeite: quit because I didn't like what I chose. So
Lina Jankauskeite: being 20 years old, I didn't really care
Lina Jankauskeite: about many things, you know, that that that I do
Lina Jankauskeite: now. And so I don't think I had any I don't think
Lina Jankauskeite: I arrived with any stereotype in my head in terms of
Lina Jankauskeite: the lifestyle. I think it was just that picture that I held in my
Lina Jankauskeite: head, you know, this darkish, gloomish, mistish kind
Lina Jankauskeite: of, you know, from Sherlock Holmes. But in terms of everything
Lina Jankauskeite: else, I I don't think I had any preconceptions.
Lina Jankauskeite: But like I said, I'm struggling to remember myself, what I was like back
Lina Jankauskeite: then. But it was yes. Because I found myself on Oxford
Lina Jankauskeite: Street. So Jo, yes, that
Lina Jankauskeite: was, but but it was what I found.
Lina Jankauskeite: I because I didn't I didn't have any preconceptions
Lina Jankauskeite: or not that I remember of. The only
Lina Jankauskeite: emotion that I feel I don't know emotion, feeling,
Lina Jankauskeite: not entirely sure how to describe that, was
Lina Jankauskeite: awe. I was in awe of of how many
Lina Jankauskeite: people, of of, yeah, of the
Lina Jankauskeite: of the hustle and bustle. I I I've never seen anything like it in
Lina Jankauskeite: my life. But for me, it was just
Lina Jankauskeite: amazement and, like, wow. Oh my god. I
Lina Jankauskeite: cannot believe this. I cannot believe I'm here. And,
Lina Jankauskeite: yeah, and just everyone Joanne there's masses of people going around
Lina Jankauskeite: their business, and it's just yeah. The pace, I
Lina Jankauskeite: I think, yeah, I was just in awe. I I would imagine, and this
Joanne Lockwood: is just me having a guess here, that there must be 30
Joanne Lockwood: or 1000 people in that Oxford Street area at
Joanne Lockwood: any one time, which is bigger than the population of of the
Joanne Lockwood: your hometown, and it's so kind of incredible. You know? And I
Joanne Lockwood: guess coming from a town where there were so few people,
Joanne Lockwood: you kinda know everybody or you or you're you're connected with people in some
Joanne Lockwood: way. It's, you know, most of the streets, you know, most of the locations
Joanne Lockwood: and suddenly coming to I don't understand, by any stretch, that
Joanne Lockwood: means that, UK is a huge country. It's not. London London does feel quite
Joanne Lockwood: huge when you're in the middle of it sometimes. But coming to a a a
Joanne Lockwood: city that is, yeah, massively bigger than what you
Joanne Lockwood: expected, did you find it unfriendly? Did you find it unwelcoming
Joanne Lockwood: or or just, as you say, in awe? I
Lina Jankauskeite: didn't, actually. Not at all because
Lina Jankauskeite: I no. I didn't, actually. I just, yeah, I didn't
Lina Jankauskeite: get that feeling. Yes. I was just in awe. So I was more
Lina Jankauskeite: I think I I was more at the time, I found myself in
Lina Jankauskeite: the position of observer rather than a
Lina Jankauskeite: participant in that. So I would literally I was a
Lina Jankauskeite: heavy smoker at the time. Not anymore. But I was a heavy smoker at the
Lina Jankauskeite: time, so I really enjoyed for the first few days in London
Lina Jankauskeite: to just sit either on the small park bench. You know, the
Lina Jankauskeite: small parks that, are off the major streets,
Lina Jankauskeite: which you can still people watch when sitting there. You can see them. So, obviously,
Lina Jankauskeite: if you go to Hyde Park, you see a lot of people in Hyde Park,
Lina Jankauskeite: but you don't see these busy hustle and bustle streets so clearly.
Lina Jankauskeite: So I would really enjoy just sit on the park bench and just
Lina Jankauskeite: just to watch the people who I by having a cigarette and a Red Bull
Lina Jankauskeite: at the time. And so and I think
Lina Jankauskeite: because I I just found myself I I can't say I
Lina Jankauskeite: put myself in that position. I just found myself in that position that I was
Lina Jankauskeite: an observer of the world around me. I
Lina Jankauskeite: didn't I didn't encounter or I didn't
Lina Jankauskeite: perceive any unfriendliness or or unapproachability.
Lina Jankauskeite: And as far as I remember, you know, the you know, when
Lina Jankauskeite: you ask for directions or you ask for which
Lina Jankauskeite: bus you need to take to get there in there, people were very
Lina Jankauskeite: willing to to share the information with you, and and
Lina Jankauskeite: and they wouldn't even in that hustle and bustle, they would really
Lina Jankauskeite: actually stop rather than just say, you're right. So
Lina Jankauskeite: straight and then fifth right and walk away. It wasn't like that.
Lina Jankauskeite: People would actually still take that extra 10 seconds, extra 15
Lina Jankauskeite: seconds to say, right. So, yeah, if you carry on straight, you know,
Lina Jankauskeite: don't you're gonna need to take a 5th ride. You know, just you're gonna see
Lina Jankauskeite: this in the shop and go around there. So they've really put the
Lina Jankauskeite: effort into, you know, even because at the time I mean, obviously, I will
Lina Jankauskeite: always have the accident. In that time, my accident was very heavy. And I
Lina Jankauskeite: didn't for one moment, I didn't perceive any
Lina Jankauskeite: anything. I was I was an observer to begin with,
Lina Jankauskeite: but when I was a participant in terms of interacting with people and with
Lina Jankauskeite: the environment, I I didn't yeah.
Lina Jankauskeite: It was it was fine. It was good. It was it was lovely. Jo
Joanne Lockwood: as you say, you you you're an observer before you participated
Joanne Lockwood: in, I guess, if you're there for a break, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, 6 months, you you weren't looking to necessarily come here and
Joanne Lockwood: reside. How did you because you must have
Joanne Lockwood: started to develop that sense of belongingness to where you were living,
Joanne Lockwood: to what you were doing. Because if you if you just stayed an observer, you
Joanne Lockwood: would have felt the connection in order to stay here. Is that is that true?
Lina Jankauskeite: You know what? The way you said it, it makes a lot of sense. I
Lina Jankauskeite: would have never I I would have never I
Lina Jankauskeite: never thought about it in that way, but that is absolutely true. Yeah. Because
Lina Jankauskeite: so I came I came because I quit uni. So I finished school.
Lina Jankauskeite: I quit uni because I didn't like what I chose. And I thought, right, I
Lina Jankauskeite: have to wait until the next academic year starts. And English is the only language
Lina Jankauskeite: that I know. I know I want to see the world a little bit. So
Lina Jankauskeite: I'll come to the UK for about 6 months then go back and reenroll.
Lina Jankauskeite: So that was the intentional sort of intention of or the
Lina Jankauskeite: plan. But I really
Lina Jankauskeite: I enjoyed myself in that diverse very because I worked
Lina Jankauskeite: my first job was, working in a in a restaurant at
Lina Jankauskeite: Stansted Airport. And out of 99
Lina Jankauskeite: members of staff, there was
Lina Jankauskeite: 1 British person and 1 Irish person, and
Lina Jankauskeite: the rest were probably from, like, 30 different
Lina Jankauskeite: countries. And so I can't say I learned much English
Lina Jankauskeite: there because, obviously, we all, you know, we all communicated in
Lina Jankauskeite: our broken English at the time. I probably built a vocabulary, but, you
Lina Jankauskeite: know, just the vocabulary. But, it was it
Lina Jankauskeite: was a wonderful experience because I was I had never been
Lina Jankauskeite: exposed to different cultures. I had never been exposed to different
Lina Jankauskeite: views of life, and I've
Lina Jankauskeite: never been exposed to different, well, metaphysical positions, if you
Lina Jankauskeite: will. And it was a very
Lina Jankauskeite: it was a very beautiful experience. I think maybe partly
Lina Jankauskeite: maybe I found myself belonging. And I I don't
Lina Jankauskeite: know. I I don't know. I'm just sort of analyzing in my head now as
Lina Jankauskeite: I on the spot. Maybe the reason why I've started
Lina Jankauskeite: feeling, like, right, I I wanna stick around for a bit longer and see where
Lina Jankauskeite: it takes me. Because partly it was a very
Lina Jankauskeite: enriching experience. And I
Lina Jankauskeite: suppose maybe my first job in the UK, we probably connected because we
Lina Jankauskeite: were all immigrants, and we
Lina Jankauskeite: were all some were trying to make it. Some of us were like myself
Lina Jankauskeite: just here for possibly a brief break and seeing the world. So
Lina Jankauskeite: I don't know. But, yes, as as you said it, now I'm thinking
Lina Jankauskeite: that's I must have found that belonging because 20 years
Lina Jankauskeite: on, nearly, I'm still here. No.
Joanne Lockwood: For sure. So you you mentioned earlier about self leadership
Joanne Lockwood: being one of the the sort of key fundamentals for,
Joanne Lockwood: well, taking personal responsibility in in your your
Joanne Lockwood: your passion for changing the world. Because you have to start with
Joanne Lockwood: yourself, don't you, to change the world? Absolutely. And
Lina Jankauskeite: you absolutely have to start with yourself. And
Lina Jankauskeite: I, we just recently, we had
Lina Jankauskeite: you know, this is gonna be where I'm gonna go off on tangent so much,
Lina Jankauskeite: so feel free to just yeah. You have to it's very
Lina Jankauskeite: cliche as well. A lot of people, oh, yeah. We heard that before. Start with
Lina Jankauskeite: yourself. What you know, whatever. What does that actually mean? And
Lina Jankauskeite: a lot of people are really, really
Lina Jankauskeite: disempowered. And they, I mean
Lina Jankauskeite: and this is obviously this is not either or. It's a
Lina Jankauskeite: spectrum of the level of disempowerment.
Lina Jankauskeite: And a lot of people, they they won't
Lina Jankauskeite: perceive themselves as that. We won't perceive them ourselves as that.
Lina Jankauskeite: But I I found myself
Lina Jankauskeite: I found myself often feeling like I have no control of
Lina Jankauskeite: things. And this is where when you have no
Lina Jankauskeite: control of things, you can feel disempowered.
Lina Jankauskeite: You wouldn't necessarily put that particular name of it, like, I
Lina Jankauskeite: feel disempowered. We we use all sorts of language to describe that.
Lina Jankauskeite: Like, oh, this can't be done, or, well, it doesn't work like
Lina Jankauskeite: that, or, well, it's always been that way. Why would you change?
Lina Jankauskeite: Oh, nobody cares. Nothing's gonna change. So it's it's
Lina Jankauskeite: reflected in our language that that
Lina Jankauskeite: living in a somewhat disempowered state, if you
Lina Jankauskeite: will. And I catch
Lina Jankauskeite: myself now. I mean, I catch myself more and more now because this is
Lina Jankauskeite: that's my job, and I've been focusing it for quite a few
Lina Jankauskeite: years now on yet self development, on
Lina Jankauskeite: observing how I relate to the world. And
Lina Jankauskeite: even though I find myself knowing better, I still get caught out. I
Lina Jankauskeite: still get into that. I don't particularly like
Lina Jankauskeite: that term, what but people use it victim
Lina Jankauskeite: mentality. It's not a nice term, but I haven't thought of
Lina Jankauskeite: anything better yet other than just in that disempowered
Lina Jankauskeite: mode. And but when I catch myself, because I've been
Lina Jankauskeite: really self developing for years years now, I I am able to
Lina Jankauskeite: catch myself using the language that
Lina Jankauskeite: keeps me stuck in that disempowered mode. So I'm
Lina Jankauskeite: able to catch it sooner, and I'm able to
Lina Jankauskeite: rationalize in my head to think, right. Hang on a
Lina Jankauskeite: second. Get a grip of yourself. So I think
Lina Jankauskeite: that's kind of the the core of that self leadership,
Lina Jankauskeite: just striving to because there's always gonna be things
Lina Jankauskeite: that's out of our control. And, and we can
Lina Jankauskeite: only act in whatever circumstances
Lina Jankauskeite: we are at the time, but we can act either
Lina Jankauskeite: from the disempowered mode where we just just go with
Lina Jankauskeite: what things are and and just live an unhappy and
Lina Jankauskeite: miserable life, or we
Lina Jankauskeite: can be in the same place where
Lina Jankauskeite: we have no control of certain things, but we can decide
Lina Jankauskeite: to do whatever we can to change
Lina Jankauskeite: our own reality around us in the hope that it
Lina Jankauskeite: will ripple. So You talked about victim mentality.
Joanne Lockwood: I I can relate to the the concept here. Is this internalization
Joanne Lockwood: you feel sometimes or you you you feel other
Joanne Lockwood: people's language being used against you sometimes, and that can cause
Joanne Lockwood: you to sometimes fight back, to be angry, to be frustrated.
Joanne Lockwood: It takes a real strength of character to be able to step back,
Joanne Lockwood: reflect, and then refocus what
Joanne Lockwood: you're what what you're who you are, what you're trying to say without
Joanne Lockwood: feeling that pressure of others to who judge you. And And I think that's what
Joanne Lockwood: you're trying to say there. It's this the victim mentality is where you're you're
Joanne Lockwood: living in a world of oppression or marginalization. And how do you step
Joanne Lockwood: into that and with the strength? Because it it can be exhausting, can't it,
Joanne Lockwood: to try and keep overcoming that adversity.
Lina Jankauskeite: It can be very exhausting.
Lina Jankauskeite: Or if you keep overcoming, it can be exhausting. But if you know where
Lina Jankauskeite: you're going at, you kind of you know, you you
Lina Jankauskeite: can can be fueled by by your end
Lina Jankauskeite: goal. However, it is for example, to
Lina Jankauskeite: address what you what you were saying, in one of my talks,
Lina Jankauskeite: I speak one of my talks is exactly that, you know, disempowered
Lina Jankauskeite: disempowering language and how to take our control back.
Lina Jankauskeite: And in that talk, I give examples. So for example and this is now a
Lina Jankauskeite: daily language, which, you know, we we use it flippantly
Lina Jankauskeite: a lot of times. We don't really think, and it's easily done. We all fall
Lina Jankauskeite: for it. But the brain work. That's how the
Lina Jankauskeite: brain works, like brain plasticity, the way the
Lina Jankauskeite: pathways form from young ages,
Lina Jankauskeite: the language constructs the way we relate to the world.
Lina Jankauskeite: So for example, if someone
Lina Jankauskeite: pulled in in front of me in in traffic as I'm driving, I'm I'm
Lina Jankauskeite: a lot better now. I was a lot worse than before before.
Lina Jankauskeite: But I could really I could
Lina Jankauskeite: really get into this rage, I suppose, because a lot of
Lina Jankauskeite: times, the expression of the expression of the
Lina Jankauskeite: sense of lack of power in a situation, a lot
Lina Jankauskeite: of times is expressed as anger. And
Lina Jankauskeite: so I would get into that rage. I mean, I wouldn't act on it. I
Lina Jankauskeite: wouldn't start, you know, beeping my my horn or throwing
Lina Jankauskeite: coffee cups at a car. I wouldn't act on it, but it would simmer
Lina Jankauskeite: inside me. And and and I I had
Lina Jankauskeite: to find the ways. Ultimately, at some point, going through
Lina Jankauskeite: life, probably studying and just generally maturing,
Lina Jankauskeite: it dawned on me that, right, the only person that is suffering
Lina Jankauskeite: this situation now is you. That person they
Lina Jankauskeite: pulled in and moved on. And the way it is, for example, reflected
Lina Jankauskeite: in the language. So we could say, oh, he pissed me off,
Lina Jankauskeite: or she does my head in, or they always do
Lina Jankauskeite: that to me. And this is a very flippant use of language, which
Lina Jankauskeite: we do because it's a very it's an everyday language, and we all do
Lina Jankauskeite: that. And I say it myself, but if
Lina Jankauskeite: we stop for a second to reframe the way we
Lina Jankauskeite: say it. So if you think, oh, she
Lina Jankauskeite: pissed me off, for example. Well well, that's it.
Lina Jankauskeite: So you are that that passive agent in the
Lina Jankauskeite: situation because she acted
Lina Jankauskeite: upon you. And if you reframe, for example just
Lina Jankauskeite: take that one second to reframe that exactly the
Lina Jankauskeite: same situation and just saying, I feel pissed off because
Lina Jankauskeite: of what you said or what she did. The The situation is still the same,
Lina Jankauskeite: and the trouble is a lot of in this situation, when I try and suggest
Lina Jankauskeite: that people could reframe it like that, some people can
Lina Jankauskeite: feel very defensive and say, so are you saying that it's it's my
Lina Jankauskeite: fault that I feel that way? And that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm
Lina Jankauskeite: not saying it's anybody's fault that someone feels the way that
Lina Jankauskeite: they do. I'm saying that is if you think
Lina Jankauskeite: that I feel how I feel because of what's
Lina Jankauskeite: been done to me, the situation is the same. There's an objective
Lina Jankauskeite: truth that something was done that, you know, you were
Lina Jankauskeite: wronged in in the same situation here for you as the same as someone pulled
Lina Jankauskeite: in in front of you, to use a simple example. So, yes, you were
Lina Jankauskeite: potentially wronged, and the feelings
Lina Jankauskeite: are justified, but do they serve you? And
Lina Jankauskeite: if they don't serve you, you can either stay in that self righteous place, which
Lina Jankauskeite: is which is justified, absolutely justified, but where is that going to
Lina Jankauskeite: take you? All you're doing, you're killing your own nerve cells by feeling like you
Lina Jankauskeite: do. You're not able to drop your best
Lina Jankauskeite: self in in your following interactions
Lina Jankauskeite: for the rest of the day, possibly, let's say. Whereas if only you
Lina Jankauskeite: just say I feel pissed off because of what she did.
Lina Jankauskeite: So the situation is the same. You're justified. You feel like you do, but
Lina Jankauskeite: it doesn't serve you. So when you say that I feel pissed
Lina Jankauskeite: off, the way the brain works, it just opens
Lina Jankauskeite: more possibilities of right right. I don't want to feel that
Lina Jankauskeite: way. What can I do about it? Whereas if you say at,
Lina Jankauskeite: oh, she pissed me off, well, there's nothing you can do about the fact that
Lina Jankauskeite: she pissed you off. There's nothing you can do. So you stay in that passive
Lina Jankauskeite: role, whereas you're the passive
Lina Jankauskeite: participant in a situation where something or someone acted upon
Lina Jankauskeite: you. Whereas if you just own the feelings, recognize that this
Lina Jankauskeite: is how I feel. I'm justified to feel that way, but I don't want to
Lina Jankauskeite: feel that way. And if you just reframe the language, it
Lina Jankauskeite: is really it sounds so simplistic. But
Lina Jankauskeite: if people use it consciously over,
Lina Jankauskeite: say, I don't know, a period of 30 days when just trying to catch
Lina Jankauskeite: yourself, you will notice that
Lina Jankauskeite: it's it will become easier and easier to catch yourself because you will literally be
Lina Jankauskeite: rewiring your brain. I mean, there's a lot of that same buzzword,
Lina Jankauskeite: rewiring your brain. But it is absolutely true. The way
Lina Jankauskeite: that neuroplasticity works, the way you break the cycles and the way you build the
Lina Jankauskeite: new connections, you will literally rewire your brain
Lina Jankauskeite: where it will become much easier to
Lina Jankauskeite: catch yourself using that disempowered and disempowering
Lina Jankauskeite: language, whether it's out loud or whether it's your internal dialogue depending
Lina Jankauskeite: on the situation. And then you see a lot more
Lina Jankauskeite: opportunities when you say, right. This is what I'm doing. What
Lina Jankauskeite: can I do to change that? Yeah. I think I well, right at the beginning,
Joanne Lockwood: I I mentioned your superpower and your
Joanne Lockwood: undefeatable belief that, we, as a human
Joanne Lockwood: species, are, at our core, good, giving, willing, and caring
Joanne Lockwood: is what I said in what you wrote. Most people who as as
Joanne Lockwood: as you you use the phrase, piss you off,
Joanne Lockwood: generally, they don't set out with that intent.
Joanne Lockwood: And I appreciate there's a huge difference between intent and impact. We have to be
Joanne Lockwood: unpack that as well. But inherently, people don't do something. Like,
Joanne Lockwood: some someone when someone cuts you up in the road or or pulls in front
Joanne Lockwood: of you, they're not doing it to disadvantage you. They're doing it to think,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, I'm in the wrong place. I need to get in. I need to pull
Joanne Lockwood: in. And it's almost like if you beat your horn, they go, oops.
Joanne Lockwood: Sorry. Whereas if you if you just take it as kind of they're trying to
Joanne Lockwood: live their best life, you're trying to live your best life. There's a bit of
Joanne Lockwood: a conflict of how you would treat that. And, Jo, I think what you're
Joanne Lockwood: saying here is we want to police people back into a box. This is
Joanne Lockwood: my rule set. You've broken my rule set. I want to tell you what you've
Joanne Lockwood: done to my rule set, and I need to let, you know, crusade against this.
Joanne Lockwood: Whereas if you just go, yeah. But they they they didn't do it
Joanne Lockwood: deliberately to to piss me off. They did it because they thought they were
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. And you otherwise, you start inventing things in your
Joanne Lockwood: head about how they're feeling or what's going on in their life or whatever. And
Joanne Lockwood: and, again, we we don't know what that is what that person's going through. They
Joanne Lockwood: might have gone I'm gonna deliberately park in front of you or cut you up.
Joanne Lockwood: But they they probably didn't even think that. They just sort of a gap and
Joanne Lockwood: and took an advantage. And some people like that, some people aren't. As
Joanne Lockwood: you say, it's but I like the analogy of road rage because what we we
Joanne Lockwood: wanna try stop people doing it again. Jo. It's not
Joanne Lockwood: right. And it's that's the ability to step back, have that
Joanne Lockwood: anger. I always think of it screwing up a bit of paper to pop it
Joanne Lockwood: in the bin. I've I've I've been angry. I've I've now thrown it in the
Joanne Lockwood: bin. Pop. It's gone. Move on. That
Lina Jankauskeite: is absolute I I could you probably saw me nodding my head. My
Lina Jankauskeite: neck's hurting now as my I couldn't I couldn't
Lina Jankauskeite: agree more. And that's where, yes, that's where
Lina Jankauskeite: another thing that I really like to talk about, which is about perception,
Lina Jankauskeite: comes in. Because exactly as you said,
Lina Jankauskeite: 99 times out of 100, people
Lina Jankauskeite: go about their own business. And they absolutely, as you
Lina Jankauskeite: said, they don't intentionally wrong anyone.
Lina Jankauskeite: And the way the way I deal with it, I have my own strategy. So
Lina Jankauskeite: you have your, you know, piece of paper that you just throw in
Lina Jankauskeite: the bin. The way I deal with it again, for example, if it's going back
Lina Jankauskeite: to that traffic example where someone cuts you off or someone's going
Lina Jankauskeite: 40 in a 60 mile zone, And, obviously, you're
Lina Jankauskeite: in the rush. You need to be somewhere, and then it it at first, you
Lina Jankauskeite: start thinking, oh, for god's sake, why are you even on the road if you
Lina Jankauskeite: don't have to be anywhere? But the way I,
Lina Jankauskeite: the way that I then reframe the situation and
Lina Jankauskeite: that works for me, so everyone needs to find their own. Mine is,
Lina Jankauskeite: right, I bet you they are carrying an injured animal to
Lina Jankauskeite: the vets. And, obviously, they can't go fast because they
Lina Jankauskeite: conjure the the the poor pet around or or whatever animal
Lina Jankauskeite: that is not necessarily a pet. And the moment I reframe that
Lina Jankauskeite: situation, I couldn't care less that it's
Lina Jankauskeite: possibly not true. But it works for me, and I just
Lina Jankauskeite: use that. So this is this is what they're doing, and this is why they're
Lina Jankauskeite: going slow. This is why they're going slow around the corners even slower because,
Lina Jankauskeite: you know, they have an injured pet in the car. So
Lina Jankauskeite: we can all find ways that works for us, but that's
Lina Jankauskeite: exactly I couldn't agree more with what you said. It is I like
Lina Jankauskeite: the way you put it, actually. Yeah. But there's someone infringed on our set of
Lina Jankauskeite: rules about, you know, transpersonal interactions or
Lina Jankauskeite: and and, yeah, that's that's so perception is one very big thing, but I think
Lina Jankauskeite: also we can use in the I mean, obviously, that's just one
Lina Jankauskeite: of tools, one of the tools,
Lina Jankauskeite: not not the only tool. Far from it. But with using
Lina Jankauskeite: the language, we can help ourselves reframe our habitual
Lina Jankauskeite: perceptions in these, you know, repeated
Lina Jankauskeite: social situations where, yeah, someone
Lina Jankauskeite: wasn't in front of you in the traffic or pushes in in the
Lina Jankauskeite: queue at the supermarket or just
Lina Jankauskeite: anything. Or even if, for example, your technology not working. And
Lina Jankauskeite: I remember I was visiting my mom a few months back, and she
Lina Jankauskeite: she fired up Zoom because she had to she wanted to remind herself how to
Lina Jankauskeite: put people in the breakout rooms, and she something didn't work or something.
Lina Jankauskeite: And she was, oh, all of this is nonsense, and she sort of
Lina Jankauskeite: just stood up and went off in the straw.
Lina Jankauskeite: And now I'm quite petty with the use of language,
Lina Jankauskeite: and and I just went, no. Hang on a second.
Lina Jankauskeite: This this isn't nonsense. It's just we don't know how to use
Lina Jankauskeite: it, me and you. And when you reframe
Lina Jankauskeite: it and she came back a few minutes later
Lina Jankauskeite: and feeling quite concerned and worried probably because it was, like, 9
Lina Jankauskeite: o'clock in the evening. And then at 8 o'clock in the morning, she had to
Lina Jankauskeite: carry out the lesson, or I think it was some
Lina Jankauskeite: demonstration that she had to carry out where, you know, potentially get,
Lina Jankauskeite: this project. And, so it's important that she she
Lina Jankauskeite: knows. And, obviously, she walked away really discouraged and really, self
Lina Jankauskeite: image is is suffering. And and, this,
Lina Jankauskeite: you know, catastrophizing happening in your head when when you word it
Lina Jankauskeite: like that. But like I said, me being petty, I
Lina Jankauskeite: insisted that we reword the situation. And she came back
Lina Jankauskeite: just 2, 3 minutes later saying Jo, okay, so what do
Lina Jankauskeite: we do? And just because we I'm not saying just because
Lina Jankauskeite: we reframed it, but I'm saying potentially that was the reason or
Lina Jankauskeite: potentially that helped because we reframed it, that she came back.
Lina Jankauskeite: Haven't found that enough power within her to
Lina Jankauskeite: think right. So there is something that I can do. So now I need to
Lina Jankauskeite: look what it is that I can do to change the situation
Lina Jankauskeite: as opposed to leave it, oh, you know what? This is not working. This is
Lina Jankauskeite: all just nonsense and just walk away feeling
Lina Jankauskeite: like the, you know, the the the weight of the world upon you.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I I did Joanne entrepreneurial
Joanne Lockwood: startup course with, NatWest, I don't know, 10 years
Joanne Lockwood: ago. And one of the things I learned from that is it's about taking personal
Joanne Lockwood: responsibility. If I'm late,
Joanne Lockwood: I had the choice to leave earlier.
Joanne Lockwood: I had the choice to think about the things that could have gone wrong.
Joanne Lockwood: I could have planned ahead for the traffic jam. I could have planned ahead for
Joanne Lockwood: a puncture in my car. I could have planned ahead for running out of fuel.
Joanne Lockwood: I could have planned ahead for that petrol station not having any fuel,
Joanne Lockwood: and I had to go to the next one. I could have planned for all
Joanne Lockwood: those things by leaving earlier, making sure I had a full tank of
Joanne Lockwood: petrol, making sure that I wasn't in a rush, making sure I knew where I
Joanne Lockwood: was going. I could I could do all of that myself. Whereas what happens
Joanne Lockwood: is something goes wrong, and I've got I haven't
Joanne Lockwood: got enough time. I haven't got enough resources. I haven't got enough of whatever
Joanne Lockwood: expertise, learning, whatever it may be. So now I'm under pressure to deliver
Joanne Lockwood: something that I can't because something's got in the way. So if I if I
Joanne Lockwood: think back with far enough, how do I make sure that I never put myself
Joanne Lockwood: in a situation where something else is is gonna cause
Joanne Lockwood: me embarrassment or failure or whatever it is? I don't get
Joanne Lockwood: it right all the time. But when it happens, I I I reframe it instantly.
Joanne Lockwood: I said, yep. I could've left earlier. Yep. I could've
Joanne Lockwood: foreseen that. Yep. I could've done that. So I don't start blaming other people. I
Joanne Lockwood: I I teach it as an exercise in my own head to say,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it's a lesson. I've learned it. Yeah. I I
Joanne Lockwood: and I chose to risk Joanne, and the risk overtook me that
Joanne Lockwood: time. Yeah. So it's like if I'm going to do some
Joanne Lockwood: delivery of a of a talk or a a keynote or some training, I
Joanne Lockwood: can leave the night before. I can get there earlier,
Joanne Lockwood: or I Joanne I could I could not say yes to doing 2 things
Joanne Lockwood: that were too tight. Yeah. I I chose to accept 2 things,
Joanne Lockwood: and the gap between them was minimal and my risk was high. I
Joanne Lockwood: chose that. Jo, therefore, I shouldn't be stressing somebody else
Joanne Lockwood: out because of my decision. So I think that that's what you're kinda
Joanne Lockwood: saying here. It's making sure that you're taken to personal responsibility
Joanne Lockwood: because you have the power, you have the control to say yes, to say no,
Joanne Lockwood: to think about something. That is absolutely what I'm saying. Yes.
Lina Jankauskeite: And it's it's a practice. So I imagine even
Lina Jankauskeite: yourself so for example, do you I don't know if you because like I said,
Lina Jankauskeite: I can't remember myself 20 years ago. Not very well anyway.
Lina Jankauskeite: And but do you remember when it happened
Lina Jankauskeite: when you went? Because as as children and then
Lina Jankauskeite: teenagers, we we grow up with a lot of that.
Lina Jankauskeite: You know, the world doesn't understand us. The world is the world is
Lina Jankauskeite: against us and and things like that. And then, obviously, as
Lina Jankauskeite: we mature in, we probably step out of that to a certain
Lina Jankauskeite: degree, all of us, out of that victimhood mentality,
Lina Jankauskeite: for want of a better term. But then, obviously, again, there's a
Lina Jankauskeite: spectrum. There's a never ending progress of how
Lina Jankauskeite: far out of it you can step out and
Lina Jankauskeite: continue going. So when you were describing how you approach
Lina Jankauskeite: the situations where, yeah, you were
Lina Jankauskeite: late, for example, to me, that sounds like a practice
Lina Jankauskeite: that got you to the place where you are now able, without
Lina Jankauskeite: any bad bad feelings, to just recognize,
Lina Jankauskeite: you know, I could've I could've done things differently, and I wouldn't be in that
Lina Jankauskeite: situation now. Just recognizing that.
Lina Jankauskeite: Because it's a practice that takes you there. Because we don't start
Lina Jankauskeite: off with that. And we're not exactly taught that either because,
Lina Jankauskeite: as children, everything's decided for us. As teenagers,
Lina Jankauskeite: everything's decided. And, you know,
Lina Jankauskeite: all these schools, for example, the the
Lina Jankauskeite: they've really just encourage encourage, not just encourage. They
Lina Jankauskeite: encourage and enforce conformity to
Lina Jankauskeite: the rules that I imposed on you, which kind of takes
Lina Jankauskeite: away to a degree and everything. I mean and these are just little
Lina Jankauskeite: examples, but a lot of we are taught that, right, there's always
Lina Jankauskeite: an outside factor that has a say in
Lina Jankauskeite: a certain situation. So if we have a headache,
Lina Jankauskeite: more often than not, we will go to the painkillers
Lina Jankauskeite: then stop to think, right, what could be the reasons why I have
Lina Jankauskeite: a headache? And which is fair enough. Sometimes it's overpowering the
Lina Jankauskeite: headache. You need the panculus to even be able to think
Lina Jankauskeite: straight. But, yeah, to reflect back, to think Jo
Lina Jankauskeite: how you know, try and try and notice when did
Lina Jankauskeite: it happen, what could have triggered it, or, you know,
Lina Jankauskeite: have there been things accumulating over time? Is it body in my 10
Lina Jankauskeite: tension in my body that's you know, how long has that been building up?
Lina Jankauskeite: Why was it building up? What so we are taught
Lina Jankauskeite: that the source all these every you know, everything's
Lina Jankauskeite: outside of us. That's what we were taught in a form of,
Lina Jankauskeite: you know, rules and regulations that we have to conform to
Lina Jankauskeite: I mean, don't get me wrong. Obviously, there needs to be rules and regulations to
Lina Jankauskeite: live in a society. But, we were never
Lina Jankauskeite: taught that within that container
Lina Jankauskeite: societal norms, we also have
Lina Jankauskeite: power. So we were never taught that, and that's why I'm saying it's a
Lina Jankauskeite: practice. So when you described the way you the way
Lina Jankauskeite: you now perceive situations, that
Lina Jankauskeite: sounds to me like you've been practicing for quite a while to get to the
Lina Jankauskeite: point where you're now where your default
Lina Jankauskeite: now is the recognition that, right, well, I am where I am. I could
Lina Jankauskeite: have done things differently. I think I think it was the to be honest, it
Joanne Lockwood: was probably on that, entrepreneur course
Joanne Lockwood: I was on that that it really that that was kinda you know, you you
Joanne Lockwood: talk about your the work you do about coaching leaders and people to
Joanne Lockwood: take this personal responsibility and to empower themselves. It
Joanne Lockwood: was it was that training that I didn't think I had that epiphany before that
Joanne Lockwood: moment. You know? That's 7 or 8 years ago, and
Joanne Lockwood: that that was I I went through most of my life not
Joanne Lockwood: understanding that. And I think from that, when we talk about one of
Joanne Lockwood: the, you know, one of the keys of effective leadership is humility.
Joanne Lockwood: And you're allowed to be wrong. You're allowed to you're allowed to say sorry. You're
Joanne Lockwood: you know, I hear so many people say, don't apologize. You know, be like the
Joanne Lockwood: queen, be like the king. You know, the royal family never apologized, never
Joanne Lockwood: explains himself. I think, well, yeah, that that's that's not the way
Joanne Lockwood: I wanna live my life. I wanna say if I if I've made a mistake,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sorry. I could've done that better. Yeah. You're right. I didn't I didn't approach
Joanne Lockwood: that in the right way. I reflect on that, and I've taken on board all
Joanne Lockwood: your comments. Yeah. If I feel I am right, I will stand up for what
Joanne Lockwood: I think. But I'm also very reflective where yep.
Joanne Lockwood: Yep. Oops. I did carve you up there on the on the road. I did
Joanne Lockwood: I did party. Yeah. You're right. I should have been more thoughtful. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you for pointing that out. You're right. I'm not I'm not gonna stand here
Joanne Lockwood: and defend it. Some people want to defend their position
Joanne Lockwood: regardless whether they're right. They think you know, some people defend their position even they
Joanne Lockwood: know they're not in the right or they just believe so strongly that they're right
Joanne Lockwood: or the other person is so wrong that they want to defend it. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think humility, saying sorry, admitting
Joanne Lockwood: it is because we I think we we
Joanne Lockwood: have this fear of being judged, fear fear of being wrong, and
Joanne Lockwood: someone's thinking badly of us. And I think you can apologize in
Joanne Lockwood: a way that doesn't make people feel badly about you. They feel more trusting
Joanne Lockwood: of you because they they recognize that you you are somebody that will tell
Joanne Lockwood: the truth and Jo matter how painful it is. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think we're taught as kids, aren't we? I think we're taught as kids not to
Joanne Lockwood: say sorry or not to admit things or hide things or sneak around behind
Joanne Lockwood: our parents' back or we do say naughty and we won't tell anybody. Because there's
Joanne Lockwood: always punishment for for telling the truth. I
Joanne Lockwood: think you can reframe it. Yeah. If you talk about reframing things, but
Joanne Lockwood: telling the truth is actually a strength, and being sorry is
Joanne Lockwood: actually a strength. Having humility is actually being a strength. Not having all the
Joanne Lockwood: answers could also be a strength. I think that's what we need to think
Joanne Lockwood: about in our leadership and, you know, self leadership or leadership of others.
Joanne Lockwood: It's I don't have to be perfect. I have to be the best human I
Joanne Lockwood: can be and build relationships and collaborate, not I
Joanne Lockwood: don't have to have all the answers. I've really
Lina Jankauskeite: I couldn't agree more with, honestly, I couldn't agree more, but 2 things
Lina Jankauskeite: stand out for me. 1 is that
Lina Jankauskeite: just thinking which way around or okay.
Lina Jankauskeite: Jo that's defending your position, and I
Lina Jankauskeite: think that is where that self leadership is really self
Lina Jankauskeite: sometimes people ask, what would you mean self leadership? What is it? So for me,
Lina Jankauskeite: that contains several things. It contains, first of
Lina Jankauskeite: all, self awareness. Another
Lina Jankauskeite: thing it contains would be resilience because you
Lina Jankauskeite: build the strategies to to
Lina Jankauskeite: deal with situations. So, hence, it makes you more resilient going
Lina Jankauskeite: forward. But yeah. So that defensiveness
Lina Jankauskeite: is exactly that, and I think and I think that is
Lina Jankauskeite: the going back to wanting to change the world,
Lina Jankauskeite: I think that's where it begins
Lina Jankauskeite: because there's of course, there's systemic there's
Lina Jankauskeite: the the the systemic things are
Lina Jankauskeite: we we don't we need a lifetime to discuss that, so I'm not gonna go
Lina Jankauskeite: into into systemic things. But even though
Lina Jankauskeite: sometimes it seems that systems take up a life on their own,
Lina Jankauskeite: I, at least, personally, still strongly believe that the systems are
Lina Jankauskeite: run by people. The systems have come and gone, and
Lina Jankauskeite: they will continue exactly as they were up to this point coming and
Lina Jankauskeite: going. And because systems are run by people, systems are created,
Lina Jankauskeite: systems are reframed and redefined by
Lina Jankauskeite: people, it will always, for me, start
Lina Jankauskeite: with people, with individuals. And it is
Lina Jankauskeite: extremely hard because when you grow up in an environment, and I'm
Lina Jankauskeite: not even going to talk about some you know, I'm talking just
Lina Jankauskeite: your general everyday growing up. I'm not talking about some people that
Lina Jankauskeite: experience a lot of trauma because that's, again, another topic.
Lina Jankauskeite: But we grow up in that
Lina Jankauskeite: kind of environment, so where especially
Lina Jankauskeite: now a western world, there's very it's very competition orientated.
Lina Jankauskeite: Everything's a competition. The way you're marked at school, the
Lina Jankauskeite: you know, it's there's a lot more competition. And, I mean, this
Lina Jankauskeite: is systemic, a lot more competition orientated than it is
Lina Jankauskeite: collaboration orientated when it comes down to it. We
Lina Jankauskeite: hear that word a lot these days, collaboration.
Lina Jankauskeite: But when it comes down to it at the core, from when we were
Lina Jankauskeite: little, it was instilled into us that you must
Lina Jankauskeite: you have to be better than someone else. And on the one hand,
Lina Jankauskeite: that's needing to defend yourself. It's an evolutionary
Lina Jankauskeite: need because, you know, if you if you suddenly
Lina Jankauskeite: recognize that actually I was wrong or if you don't defend
Lina Jankauskeite: yourself and apologize, it comes it can shatter your self
Lina Jankauskeite: image depending on how long you were
Lina Jankauskeite: wrong in your life, in a particular, let's say, in the
Lina Jankauskeite: in a particular area of the way
Lina Jankauskeite: you conducted your life. And that
Lina Jankauskeite: comes, but the reason why it threatens your self image
Lina Jankauskeite: is because of that lack of self assurance.
Lina Jankauskeite: And self assurance, it has some bad rep because it's
Lina Jankauskeite: it's associated with arrogance, you know, on in the very
Lina Jankauskeite: on the very sort of superficial,
Lina Jankauskeite: plane. But if you don't if you're not secure
Lina Jankauskeite: within yourself, if your self image is dependent
Lina Jankauskeite: on others' perceptions, you
Lina Jankauskeite: you will find it very hard to admit
Lina Jankauskeite: fault even to yourself, never mind to somebody else,
Lina Jankauskeite: because that literally threatens yourself your identity. Because to
Lina Jankauskeite: say, you know what? I conducted myself wrong for the last 20
Lina Jankauskeite: years. What are you left with then? So it's a very hard place to be
Lina Jankauskeite: at. You can, if you're not careful, paint yourself
Joanne Lockwood: into a corner, can't you? You kind of you back yourself in, and you feel
Joanne Lockwood: the only only way out is to fight. A bit like a cornered animal.
Joanne Lockwood: Whereas if you can reflect I mean, I've I've
Joanne Lockwood: reflected I've had some significant life changes over the last 10, 15
Joanne Lockwood: years, various things. And I can look back and
Joanne Lockwood: say, yeah, I've I've I woke
Joanne Lockwood: up 5, 10 years ago, and I have a different outlook on life. I look
Joanne Lockwood: back at my past life. I look back at my past history and how I
Joanne Lockwood: behaved, and I recognize that I could have done better. And
Joanne Lockwood: I I look back and think I'm not necessarily saying I'm ashamed of who I
Joanne Lockwood: was or who how I acted, but I've reflected on some of those
Joanne Lockwood: times being not the person I would how I'd react today.
Joanne Lockwood: And I've, yeah, I I've I've realized that maybe I put people in situations
Joanne Lockwood: that weren't fair or I wasn't treating them with enough
Joanne Lockwood: respect. I think I could look back and and not necessarily say feel
Joanne Lockwood: shame about it. I I I would I'd be happy to apologize. I'd be happy
Joanne Lockwood: to reflect and say, you're right. I should've done better. I could've done
Joanne Lockwood: better. I now know better. I think we shouldn't be shouldn't be afraid to
Joanne Lockwood: do that. I think if you're not careful, we we keep we keep enforcing our
Joanne Lockwood: rules here. You know, I'm in the corner. I have to fight it out of
Joanne Lockwood: it. I have to keep defending this hill. And sometimes it's just a case of
Joanne Lockwood: saying, no. No. You're right. I I look back and,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I've learned. And, you know, that brings me to the second point
Lina Jankauskeite: of what you previously addressed, which is vulnerability.
Lina Jankauskeite: And in my experience, in
Lina Jankauskeite: not not only in experience I observed, but also in
Lina Jankauskeite: my own experience time and time and time and time again,
Lina Jankauskeite: vulnerability is what connects me to other
Lina Jankauskeite: people because that defending
Lina Jankauskeite: your corner, it's a very lonely place to be,
Lina Jankauskeite: just defending your corner no matter what.
Lina Jankauskeite: And it will because it is
Lina Jankauskeite: it is threatening your self image to you know, if if
Lina Jankauskeite: someone says you're wrong, that's when we become defensive because it's
Lina Jankauskeite: somebody else imposing their worldview, and you need to defend it,
Lina Jankauskeite: and you're gonna think about it later. And
Lina Jankauskeite: it's when we are able to recognize upon reflection that,
Lina Jankauskeite: yeah, we could have done better, that is such a such a strength
Lina Jankauskeite: on the one hand to to be able to say that. It's a it's a
Lina Jankauskeite: very strong thing to do as opposed to weak.
Lina Jankauskeite: I can't even put into words how important that is for me as well to
Lina Jankauskeite: be to be able to say, you know what? I would and I'm not going
Lina Jankauskeite: to lie. There are situations where I sometimes find it hard still,
Lina Jankauskeite: but it's a practice. It's something that you that I think
Lina Jankauskeite: that I I have to do that. I have to do the right thing by
Lina Jankauskeite: that other person by admitting that I was wrong,
Lina Jankauskeite: by putting them first. And I find that in that
Lina Jankauskeite: process, which is a very, very you
Lina Jankauskeite: it can take to build up, but that's the thing exactly as you said, you
Lina Jankauskeite: now know better. At the time when you did something or did not do
Lina Jankauskeite: something that maybe you could have done, you did not know better. You did
Lina Jankauskeite: the best you knew you can at the time. So it's
Lina Jankauskeite: not admitting that you'd what you did wasn't
Lina Jankauskeite: optimal or back, you know, in the
Lina Jankauskeite: past. It's not it's it's
Lina Jankauskeite: not that you're saying, oh, yeah. You know, I I I was
Lina Jankauskeite: it's admit you you knew you did the best you could. You did the best
Lina Jankauskeite: you knew you could, and that's okay. That's all the only thing we can
Lina Jankauskeite: expect of ourselves, to always do the best we know that we
Lina Jankauskeite: can until we know better. Is it Joanne Angelo that
Lina Jankauskeite: said it's a very famous goat, isn't it? But, really,
Lina Jankauskeite: that keeps you in the place in isolation until you find that courage
Lina Jankauskeite: to first look at yourself. Just first look at yourself. Because like
Lina Jankauskeite: you said, sometimes you have to stand in the corner because you feel you're
Lina Jankauskeite: right. But if you suddenly reflect back and you recognize that maybe
Lina Jankauskeite: you could have done things differently, it's very, very it's
Lina Jankauskeite: a very lonely place to be to keep that to yourself. And to say it
Lina Jankauskeite: out loud, it both reconnects to you to other people, and
Lina Jankauskeite: that vulnerability reconnects you to other people. And suddenly,
Lina Jankauskeite: you're not alone because you're sharing their humanity with those
Lina Jankauskeite: around you. And that's where the empowerment actually comes
Lina Jankauskeite: from, where that self leadership, that's how it
Lina Jankauskeite: manifests. But it's a practice. It's not it's not
Lina Jankauskeite: just skills you learn that you're told this is
Lina Jankauskeite: how you speak. This is what, you know, what you do. It's a practice.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You you talk about the loneliness. Yeah. The loneliness of being right
Joanne Lockwood: is you either you either have to agree with me
Joanne Lockwood: or you're in a position where you have to be wrong. It's a very lonely
Joanne Lockwood: place to to make sure that everybody either agrees with you or is wrong.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think if I often say this to people. I haven't been married for
Joanne Lockwood: these 37 years by having to be right. I think marriage,
Joanne Lockwood: relationships, leadership it's not about having to be right because it becomes a
Joanne Lockwood: very lonely place. And what you soon find is that
Joanne Lockwood: you don't have people's support. They you don't have people's respect. You don't have
Joanne Lockwood: people looking up to you. They're they're
Joanne Lockwood: constantly feeling yeah. They're feeling, I don't know, threatened
Joanne Lockwood: when they're in your presence. So I think the need to be right is something
Joanne Lockwood: we need to overcome. You know, vulnerability, humility.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, as a as a leader, have strategy, have direction,
Joanne Lockwood: have inspiration, paint the big picture. It doesn't mean to
Joanne Lockwood: say you have to defend that to to the hilt. You could
Joanne Lockwood: the best project management managers I know question
Joanne Lockwood: and revisit the plan all the time. Is this still the right plan? Are we
Joanne Lockwood: still on the right track? Have facts changed? You know, you say,
Joanne Lockwood: this is how I was back then. The facts have changed. My age
Joanne Lockwood: I've moved on. I've changed who I am. I can now revisit that and do
Joanne Lockwood: it differently. The project has changed. We we have different objectives. The team
Joanne Lockwood: has changed. The the the world has changed. Yeah. COVID popped up.
Joanne Lockwood: We had to change. So I think having a fixed
Joanne Lockwood: view of being right or having a fixed
Joanne Lockwood: plan can be problematic. I think what you're saying here is that by
Joanne Lockwood: reflecting, be more introspect, self aware,
Joanne Lockwood: We don't have to hold on to all this stuff ourselves. I think that that's
Joanne Lockwood: that's really keen to you know, part of this changing ourselves first. And you say
Joanne Lockwood: it's corny and cliche. It's it's not really.
Joanne Lockwood: It it it is fundamental as far as I can see. I
Lina Jankauskeite: yeah. I I think it's fundamental. It's only conian cliched just because
Lina Jankauskeite: it's used so much and sometimes very flippantly. That's why it comes
Lina Jankauskeite: across as that. But what's behind those
Lina Jankauskeite: concepts or constructs is for me, it
Lina Jankauskeite: is absolutely, yeah, it's the core things. It's
Lina Jankauskeite: it's the it's the essentials. And I really like,
Lina Jankauskeite: as you were saying about leadership, I heard this
Lina Jankauskeite: a few months ago, I was listening to some or just
Lina Jankauskeite: watched a little clip on YouTube, and there was some a coach as
Lina Jankauskeite: well talking to someone, some interview,
Lina Jankauskeite: and he was talking about impostor syndrome. But I think
Lina Jankauskeite: I apply it more wider you know, a lot wider than than in what
Lina Jankauskeite: context he was saying that. So this coach was talking about the imposter syndrome that
Lina Jankauskeite: he constantly had to battle at the beginning of his career.
Lina Jankauskeite: And so the interviewer asks, so, you know, how did you deal with
Lina Jankauskeite: that? What what helped you? And so
Lina Jankauskeite: the interviewee described how he was working with a coach himself,
Lina Jankauskeite: which was, I think, of sort of a bit of Buddhist
Lina Jankauskeite: philosophy inclination. And,
Lina Jankauskeite: the coach apparently had asked him. He said,
Lina Jankauskeite: why do you feel that you have to be the master of
Lina Jankauskeite: things? You know, you you only need to be a guide.
Lina Jankauskeite: And he said that that was what really helped him
Lina Jankauskeite: to, with time, overcome that imposter syndrome. And for me,
Lina Jankauskeite: that really stuck with me, and I think it's very much applicable
Lina Jankauskeite: both in leadership positions because, obviously, they are in
Lina Jankauskeite: positions that create culture, so, you
Lina Jankauskeite: know, your your workplace culture or your institutional culture.
Lina Jankauskeite: So it's very important that they see themselves
Lina Jankauskeite: as guides, which are a step or 2 ahead
Lina Jankauskeite: of other people that they are leading, and that is where they are leading. They
Lina Jankauskeite: are a step or 2 ahead rather than master. Because when
Lina Jankauskeite: you when you fancy yourself a total master,
Lina Jankauskeite: it it's a very slippery slope where you can slip into that
Lina Jankauskeite: I know better, and I'm not listening to anybody
Lina Jankauskeite: else. Whereas you just if you and
Lina Jankauskeite: that goes back to what you said, humility. If you perceive yourself as a
Lina Jankauskeite: guide, right, you know so, you know, I have more
Lina Jankauskeite: knowledge, more experience than those people I'm leading in this
Lina Jankauskeite: particular field, and this is why I'm leading, but I don't know at
Lina Jankauskeite: all. So when you're not a guide
Lina Jankauskeite: mentality or mindset, you you will continue
Lina Jankauskeite: progressing in your self development, in your professional development because
Lina Jankauskeite: you, you know, that when you become a master
Lina Jankauskeite: or self ascribed master, you you that's it.
Lina Jankauskeite: That's kind of sealing a limit. That's it. I achieved
Lina Jankauskeite: whatever whatever I had to achieve, and there's
Lina Jankauskeite: nothing else to be achieved in this area. So I know everything, and
Lina Jankauskeite: I'm an absolute authority. And it just doesn't
Lina Jankauskeite: work that way because the world, as you say, is changing.
Lina Jankauskeite: So I really like that guide versus master metaphor. Like I said, it
Lina Jankauskeite: was in different context by apply and it's everywhere, not just in leadership
Lina Jankauskeite: positions in in your personal relationships,
Lina Jankauskeite: in your, yeah, in your social relationships?
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know who who said it, but I'm I'm gonna say Richard Branson springs
Joanne Lockwood: to mind. His His philosophy, or the person who has quoted
Joanne Lockwood: this philosophy, was surround yourself by people who are better than you.
Joanne Lockwood: Because one thing I've I've learned in my in my past
Joanne Lockwood: life in in computing and IT is I I was always wanting
Joanne Lockwood: to be the best. And, generally, I I have more expertise.
Joanne Lockwood: But that becomes exhausting as well because not only you're trying to lead, you're trying
Joanne Lockwood: to lead with your views, your opinions, and try and bring people with you. If
Joanne Lockwood: you have a perception that nobody else is good enough or not as good as
Joanne Lockwood: you, you'll never trust them. So I I've learned that I I would
Joanne Lockwood: rather surround myself with people who are far
Joanne Lockwood: more astute and and and skillful at what they do and let
Joanne Lockwood: them do it well and and be the guide. You know, talk about being the
Joanne Lockwood: guide, being the coach, being the mentor, create strategy
Joanne Lockwood: through their expertise, and
Joanne Lockwood: that bring also allows people to buy into the strategy, buy into the direction.
Joanne Lockwood: But if, you know, again, if as a leader, if if you're the one that
Joanne Lockwood: does all the talking and never the listening, how do you get people to
Joanne Lockwood: buy in? You know, we talked about belonging right at the beginning. Belonging happens when
Joanne Lockwood: you feel part of something, when you start to be listened to and contribute.
Joanne Lockwood: If I just tell you what you're doing all the time, you're never gonna feel
Joanne Lockwood: belonging. You're never gonna feel bad. That sense of engagement
Joanne Lockwood: or buy into whatever I'm doing. So, yeah, it's I've I've learned that
Joanne Lockwood: as a as a leader that it's it's it can't all be about
Joanne Lockwood: me. It's not about me. It's not about the leader. The
Joanne Lockwood: leader yeah. Whether you use the servant model where the leader's at the bottom holding
Joanne Lockwood: everybody up or the visionary transformational model where
Joanne Lockwood: you're painting a picture and get people to follow. I work in a
Joanne Lockwood: world where it's empowering people's important. Okay. If I
Joanne Lockwood: was working on a production line, I was working in a very tight
Joanne Lockwood: quality control environment. Maybe that I need to take a different grip
Joanne Lockwood: of the the leadership enforcement maybe. But,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I I mean, I'm there to serve. I'm there to create strategy and
Joanne Lockwood: direction, not not micromanage or or tell people what to
Joanne Lockwood: think. Yes. And for me, it is also a challenge because I'm a
Lina Jankauskeite: bit of a control freak. But, I'm a
Lina Jankauskeite: control freak in terms of I make my own cups of tea because no one
Lina Jankauskeite: can make me a a good cup of tea because that's just that's just me.
Lina Jankauskeite: That's my problem. That's nobody else's problem. But I think that's another
Lina Jankauskeite: thing to recognize
Lina Jankauskeite: that I shouldn't make something somebody else's
Lina Jankauskeite: problem. That is my problem. And
Lina Jankauskeite: that's just one of examples where where I am a bit of a control
Lina Jankauskeite: freak. And, I mean, I'm serious. It's literally
Lina Jankauskeite: I'm very specific about my cup of tea. I know exactly how many times to
Lina Jankauskeite: dip the tea bag because I, you know, I like it weak and yeah.
Lina Jankauskeite: So I'll just if someone asks you, want a cup of tea? I'll say, just
Lina Jankauskeite: put enough water in the kettle and I'll do it myself. And I always
Lina Jankauskeite: think, oh, man, you know, the carers are gonna hate me when I get old.
Lina Jankauskeite: So I hope that by that point, I somehow, you know, acquire different taste
Lina Jankauskeite: buds. But, really, it is that if
Lina Jankauskeite: you if you have that streak of things
Lina Jankauskeite: to be done a certain particular way,
Lina Jankauskeite: you also have to really wait up to to
Lina Jankauskeite: what degree you you can or you justify to
Lina Jankauskeite: expect other people to do them in the same way as you
Lina Jankauskeite: do them. Because, of course, there can be times
Lina Jankauskeite: when when when the situation requires it, and that's when you
Lina Jankauskeite: become a leader when the situation requires it. Because otherwise, for me, the way I
Lina Jankauskeite: see leadership is being supportive, being an
Lina Jankauskeite: approachable support to people around you so they can really,
Lina Jankauskeite: really stop shrinking inside of themselves and
Lina Jankauskeite: to really open up and not
Lina Jankauskeite: just share the wildest of ideas, the wildest of ideas, the
Lina Jankauskeite: most audacious, the most ridiculous ideas. That's what the
Lina Jankauskeite: that's what real leadership does. It's quiet
Lina Jankauskeite: sitting there and observing unless the situation
Lina Jankauskeite: requires that you absolutely step in and people are now looking
Lina Jankauskeite: up to you to lead them out of the stormy waters into the calmer
Lina Jankauskeite: waters when they, again, can develop and and
Lina Jankauskeite: and just be what they are. Jo
Lina Jankauskeite: that, yeah, without having a certain, you know,
Lina Jankauskeite: me talking from someone, like I said, from a control freak point of view,
Lina Jankauskeite: I recognize that, and I recognize that my need for control
Lina Jankauskeite: for certain things should not become other people's problem. I
Joanne Lockwood: I've also, picking up on that, I've also learned when it
Joanne Lockwood: matters to somebody else more than it matters to me. So I
Joanne Lockwood: can coexist with somebody who has strong opinions and is a control freak and
Joanne Lockwood: whatever because it clearly I can respect the fact that that really
Joanne Lockwood: matters. It's like, if I'm playing
Joanne Lockwood: and occasionally, I play darts. I play pool very,
Joanne Lockwood: very occasionally. I don't have to win. I like a bit of
Joanne Lockwood: a game. I like to chat. I like to play. If the other person really,
Joanne Lockwood: really wants to win, is really, really competitive, I'm not gonna let them win, but
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not gonna take it as seriously as I will. And I I can coexist
Joanne Lockwood: in that environment where I don't have to be competitive.
Joanne Lockwood: And I recognize that someone else is, and I'm I don't feel threatened by someone
Joanne Lockwood: else's competitive nature. And the other thing I was gonna we we were speaking
Joanne Lockwood: early. I was thinking, I know when to walk away. I
Joanne Lockwood: know when I know when something doesn't matter that much to me. I'm either
Joanne Lockwood: happy to acquiesce, capitulate, give in,
Joanne Lockwood: or say, you've got the passion. Go for it. I'll follow you. I'm I'm
Joanne Lockwood: more than happy you taking the lead. It's also known when to walk
Joanne Lockwood: away from situations where it's toxic. You
Joanne Lockwood: can never you can never bring any change. It may probably be
Joanne Lockwood: me, and I'm this doesn't work for me. It's not
Joanne Lockwood: you. It's actually no. Yeah. I'm not here to change you. And it comes to
Joanne Lockwood: a point where you have to accept that somebody else isn't gonna change for
Joanne Lockwood: you, at which point you you decide you have the you have the choice either
Joanne Lockwood: to keep playing or step back.
Joanne Lockwood: Often, I know where my limitations are, and this environment is not
Joanne Lockwood: for me. And I'm sorry. I'm I'm out. It doesn't work. And it's recognizing that
Joanne Lockwood: as well. You don't have to you don't have to win in every game or
Joanne Lockwood: even compete in every game you play. That's very relate
Lina Jankauskeite: relatable of things you said, and I think it's it's probably relatable to
Lina Jankauskeite: everyone as well. And it is, yeah, I had to walk away
Lina Jankauskeite: from toxic relationships as well because it had
Lina Jankauskeite: to run its its course. I had to I think
Lina Jankauskeite: I achieved closure before I could
Lina Jankauskeite: step away from that relationship. And
Lina Jankauskeite: some probably would have said I should have done it earlier, but I
Lina Jankauskeite: didn't because I haven't got to the point where where I achieved
Lina Jankauskeite: closure. And I didn't wanna be left with, oh, what ifs
Lina Jankauskeite: if you do it too early. But at the same time, like you said, you
Lina Jankauskeite: have to you have to be open to stepping away
Lina Jankauskeite: because it just consumes your energy
Lina Jankauskeite: and and really brings out the worst in you as well if you stay too
Lina Jankauskeite: long in those situations. And
Lina Jankauskeite: I don't I don't regret those situations where I found
Lina Jankauskeite: myself from which I needed to really
Lina Jankauskeite: urgently walk away eventually. And I don't regret them because they really
Lina Jankauskeite: also showed me my shadows with which
Lina Jankauskeite: I can work then. Because before then, I wouldn't have known them.
Lina Jankauskeite: You know, they weren't exposed. They weren't illuminated because I've I've never found
Lina Jankauskeite: myself in the situations where they would rise to the surface.
Lina Jankauskeite: But, and I I have been provoked following that
Lina Jankauskeite: on numerous times, provoked
Lina Jankauskeite: into interacting in that same kind of defensive
Lina Jankauskeite: way. You know, someone will tell you that, alright. So we've
Lina Jankauskeite: got nothing else to say. That's why you're walking away. Or, oh, yeah. So
Lina Jankauskeite: you just, you know, just giving up or or
Lina Jankauskeite: just things like that. You know, the provocative kind of language.
Lina Jankauskeite: But it's exactly what you say. You have to you and you have to be
Lina Jankauskeite: securing yourself sufficiently to not
Lina Jankauskeite: fall for that kind of provocation. And that for me is,
Lina Jankauskeite: again, practice something that
Lina Jankauskeite: you have to constantly practice. It starts with awareness,
Lina Jankauskeite: continues with conscious,
Lina Jankauskeite: intentional, effortful practice
Lina Jankauskeite: until it then becomes easier to actually you know, it just
Lina Jankauskeite: eventually washes off like a water off a dog's back. Is that the saying, I
Lina Jankauskeite: think? But it is what we
Lina Jankauskeite: all I think it is what we all striving for, but we don't
Lina Jankauskeite: always recognize to that sense of, yeah, self
Lina Jankauskeite: leadership, self efficacy, self sufficiency,
Lina Jankauskeite: and sufficient self sufficiently
Lina Jankauskeite: safe self image, but there's a lot of things that are packed into this. I
Lina Jankauskeite: mean, obviously, there are decades decades decades of research
Lina Jankauskeite: into all these different tiny little threads of what self leadership
Lina Jankauskeite: entails. And still not everyone agrees on
Lina Jankauskeite: the on the subject, but you
Lina Jankauskeite: have to start somewhere. Lina, thank you. What an amazing
Joanne Lockwood: conversation. How do people get a hold of you if they wanna find out more?
Lina Jankauskeite: Right. I'm on LinkedIn, mostly. Mainly, that's where I am active on
Lina Jankauskeite: LinkedIn. You can find my contact details there as well if you're more
Lina Jankauskeite: interested, and you can if you browse, you'll you'll see what
Lina Jankauskeite: I believe in, what I fight for. It's in
Lina Jankauskeite: fragments, but, it should give you a taste.
Lina Jankauskeite: And if you don't want to go on LinkedIn and look for immediate
Lina Jankauskeite: details, the easiest way to contact me is the email address, which
Lina Jankauskeite: is queries at redefineandrewire.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: Fabulous. I'll put those in the show notes. Lina, thank you so
Joanne Lockwood: much. It was an absolute wonderful conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for
Joanne Lockwood: lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
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