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Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 127
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Equity in Action. And I have the
Joanne Lockwood: absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sharitta Marshall.
Joanne Lockwood: Sharitta is the founder of Visionary Development
Joanne Lockwood: Consulting. She's dedicated to ensuring that everyone feels seen,
Joanne Lockwood: heard, and valued within their organization. When I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Sharitta to describe her superpower, she said, my
Joanne Lockwood: superpower is my ability to connect diverse perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: and translate them into actionable strategies that
Joanne Lockwood: align with organizational goal. Hello, Sharitta. Welcome to the show.
Sharitta Marshall: Hi, Joanne. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, what a pleasure. What a
Joanne Lockwood: pleasure. So, Sharitta, tell me. Equity in action, what does that mean
Joanne Lockwood: to you? Well, let me first by saying equity is making sure
Sharitta Marshall: that everyone has the appropriate resources that they need
Sharitta Marshall: to thrive and be successful in any given
Sharitta Marshall: situation or experience. So equity in action for
Sharitta Marshall: me, from the perspective of the work that I do, means that
Sharitta Marshall: there is an acknowledgment of systemic inequities, and there
Sharitta Marshall: is an intentional and impactful plan
Sharitta Marshall: to address those systemic inequities. So everyone
Sharitta Marshall: has not only the correct tools that
Sharitta Marshall: they need to thrive, but also the opportunity that
Sharitta Marshall: they need to be the best possible versions of themselves.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I completely get that and resonate with that. But a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: people, I find, don't truly buy into the concept of
Joanne Lockwood: of equity. You know, they they look around and they think, well, hang on a
Joanne Lockwood: minute. This is it's all about meritocracy, isn't it? Everyone should succeed
Joanne Lockwood: on their own merits. And that's a common myth
Joanne Lockwood: that exists in in recruitment, in in the workplace, around this
Joanne Lockwood: belief in the meritocracy. Yeah. And it comes
Sharitta Marshall: from the misguided belief that
Sharitta Marshall: equality is available for everyone. And the
Sharitta Marshall: simple fact is is that if you say, well, we've given
Sharitta Marshall: everyone running shoes, so everyone should be able to run,
Sharitta Marshall: but you have an individual who does not
Sharitta Marshall: have ability to use their legs, who is
Sharitta Marshall: blind, who never learned how to
Sharitta Marshall: run. But the standpoint of, well, if we gave everybody shoes,
Sharitta Marshall: then they should be able to do it. And that's why I come from the
Sharitta Marshall: lens of equity because we need to be able to provide resources
Sharitta Marshall: for everyone given what they need in order
Sharitta Marshall: to thrive and not just have the assumption
Sharitta Marshall: from 1 perspective that if everyone is given this 1 thing, then that
Sharitta Marshall: means everyone has the same starting point, the
Sharitta Marshall: same ability, as well as the same information
Sharitta Marshall: to be successful. Yeah. III see people talk about this all the
Joanne Lockwood: time, and and a lot of people will tell me, well, they've had a tough
Joanne Lockwood: life as well. You know, it's not been easy for them. No 1 gives
Joanne Lockwood: them any help. That's the challenge, trying to allow people who
Joanne Lockwood: hold privilege to recognize how
Joanne Lockwood: that privilege has benefited for them all of their lives
Joanne Lockwood: and to have and to be able to connect, as you say, with that sense
Joanne Lockwood: of equity where people need those tools, that that support to succeed.
Sharitta Marshall: Yeah. And I think people misunderstand that
Sharitta Marshall: privilege is not the erasure of
Sharitta Marshall: hardship. That's not what privilege means. Privilege just means
Sharitta Marshall: that there are not systemic inequities or issues
Sharitta Marshall: that you have to deal with on a daily basis.
Sharitta Marshall: So for me, I am privileged to
Sharitta Marshall: have Internet and be in a place where I
Sharitta Marshall: can, you know, afford to have a home and take
Sharitta Marshall: care of my bills. Like, that's a privilege. And I don't
Sharitta Marshall: negate the fact that, yeah, are there times that I struggle in
Sharitta Marshall: to take care of my bills? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that I don't have
Sharitta Marshall: the privilege to go out and, you know, figure something out
Sharitta Marshall: or not have the, you know, the hindrance that
Sharitta Marshall: if I was chronically dealing with housing
Sharitta Marshall: insecurity and food insecurity, I don't, you know, I don't have to
Sharitta Marshall: deal with that. So there are things that are not put
Sharitta Marshall: in my my way in order for me to not be
Sharitta Marshall: successful and being able just, you know, to live. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I guess, from your perspective, you have a Social Security number. You can
Joanne Lockwood: get a job. You can get employment. You have a bank account. Whereas many
Joanne Lockwood: people who are maybe escaping terror, fleeing
Joanne Lockwood: persecution arrive in the country without even
Joanne Lockwood: speaking 1 of the major languages, you know, Spanish or
Joanne Lockwood: English in the US. So and and people
Joanne Lockwood: often think about speaking English as a privilege,
Joanne Lockwood: and it is. Yeah. For most of the vast majority of the world,
Joanne Lockwood: speaking English is is still the dominant language and therefore is a privilege, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? It very much so is. And I think people don't understand,
Sharitta Marshall: like, how how difficult that is. Everyone not
Sharitta Marshall: everyone, but there are people that like to throw around, well, you know, just learn
Sharitta Marshall: the language. I don't believe that people understand English is 1 of the
Sharitta Marshall: hardest languages to learn in the world. It is there's so many
Sharitta Marshall: caveats, so many if then then that.
Sharitta Marshall: And as a parent of a child that has dyslexia,
Sharitta Marshall: that makes it even more difficult. So the assumption
Sharitta Marshall: that, you know, just because it's the norm for you, that
Sharitta Marshall: that should be the standard for everyone is a misnomer and
Sharitta Marshall: very much steeped in, you know, a privileged eyesight.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, as someone who's spoken English all of my life,
Joanne Lockwood: I I I've I've got the privilege of never having to try to
Joanne Lockwood: learn it. And and when I hear the the complexities that other people
Joanne Lockwood: talk about, I think I never think about it because I don't think of
Joanne Lockwood: language and English certainly in the same way that when I try to learn French
Joanne Lockwood: or or German, other language. I don't think of English in those ways. I don't
Joanne Lockwood: understand the construct of sentences and how it's built up. I I just know it
Joanne Lockwood: inherently. And that's the challenge is is you say English is is
Joanne Lockwood: complex. It changes the nuances that
Joanne Lockwood: help people talk and help what people say, and they make words up
Joanne Lockwood: as well. And it it could be very complex. It's a very dynamic language.
Joanne Lockwood: And, but it has some very, very strange rules as well, isn't it? Yes.
Sharitta Marshall: And I like to tell people, like, if you don't believe that English is hard,
Sharitta Marshall: then teach a preschooler English.
Sharitta Marshall: Sit down with a preschooler and teach them English. Like, tell them words, and then
Sharitta Marshall: tell them the words that are that sound the same that are spelled different. And
Sharitta Marshall: then tell them about the silent letters and why they're gonna ask why well,
Sharitta Marshall: why is that there? And it's it's a very interesting thing
Sharitta Marshall: that I really didn't think about until I had a
Sharitta Marshall: child, and I was teaching my child to read words and understand
Sharitta Marshall: words. And then adding on the fact that she has dyslexia,
Sharitta Marshall: it compounded her ability to be able to
Sharitta Marshall: understand how to read and comprehend English. There are also a whole
Joanne Lockwood: host of words that look the same, sound the same, but have a different that
Joanne Lockwood: almost have the opposite meaning Yeah. Depending on how you use them and how you
Joanne Lockwood: say them. And it's like, yeah. And people say this to me, like, okay. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I get it. And but that's just 1 example of expecting
Joanne Lockwood: other people to just do something because I did,
Joanne Lockwood: therefore, you can. It's almost like that. It's that rule, isn't it? Yes. And
Sharitta Marshall: that where that's where equity comes in is the assumption that just because
Sharitta Marshall: I did it with this, then if you have access to it, then you should
Sharitta Marshall: be able to do the same thing. It's not coming from a place of,
Sharitta Marshall: 1, understanding diverse perspective and diverse
Sharitta Marshall: lived experiences, but also having absolutely no empathy for someone
Sharitta Marshall: having a different life experience and what that looks
Sharitta Marshall: like. And there are so many assumptions that are made
Sharitta Marshall: by individuals of other individuals
Sharitta Marshall: that really do lend itself to people
Sharitta Marshall: not wanting to contribute and push equity
Sharitta Marshall: in the world. Yeah. I I just seen that in some of the show notes,
Joanne Lockwood: there's some of the stuff you sent through. You talk about the work that you're
Joanne Lockwood: doing or helping organizations to do with their staff networks, the employee resource
Joanne Lockwood: groups. Mhmm. I'm a great I'm a great believer that
Joanne Lockwood: ERG staff networks give employees
Joanne Lockwood: a a collective voice of support, also
Joanne Lockwood: advocacy within the organization. I'm also a great believer that organizations can
Joanne Lockwood: leverage the power of those perspectives and voices. So how
Joanne Lockwood: how do you work with organizations to to empower
Joanne Lockwood: ERGs and, you know, develop equity, I guess?
Sharitta Marshall: Well, I start from the the lens of
Sharitta Marshall: them looking at the employee resource group as a strategic business
Sharitta Marshall: unit. Not an Infinity Group, not a community group, not a
Sharitta Marshall: club, or just a checkbox, but
Sharitta Marshall: program of individuals that are
Sharitta Marshall: underrepresented typically within the organization and setting
Sharitta Marshall: them up to create equity throughout the
Sharitta Marshall: organization. That is 1 of the cornerstones
Sharitta Marshall: that organizations can use to create equity and create it in a
Sharitta Marshall: way that people actually understand and get what it is. A
Sharitta Marshall: lot of times, especially now, the push for DEI is
Sharitta Marshall: getting so much pushback on, 1, is it
Sharitta Marshall: necessary? Does it discriminate against other people that are
Sharitta Marshall: not considered protected groups? And, you know, why should people
Sharitta Marshall: give up what they have for other people. And
Sharitta Marshall: when I come in and talk about how ERGs create
Sharitta Marshall: equity, they create equity in several ways. 1, they give a
Sharitta Marshall: voice to diverse lived experiences that a lot
Sharitta Marshall: of people don't have insights into and don't
Sharitta Marshall: understand. They allow for understanding through language and
Sharitta Marshall: terminology. There are different, terminologies that are used
Sharitta Marshall: in the they've added another letter, so I don't wanna mess this
Sharitta Marshall: up. 2 s LGBTQI plus
Sharitta Marshall: community where people don't understand is like, well, what's the 2 s, and what's the
Sharitta Marshall: plus, and what is all that? Being able to give them language and
Sharitta Marshall: terminology so that they understand that. Sharing what
Sharitta Marshall: systemic inequities where they
Sharitta Marshall: are able to express
Sharitta Marshall: their lived experience, where they are
Sharitta Marshall: able to express their lived experiences and
Sharitta Marshall: show how those systemic inequities impact them on a daily basis,
Sharitta Marshall: including their experience with the organization. And when they're able to
Sharitta Marshall: do that, not only are they able to understand how they contribute
Sharitta Marshall: to systemic inequities as an organization, but also how
Sharitta Marshall: that contribution affects their community as at
Sharitta Marshall: large, including their consumers. We live in a global
Sharitta Marshall: economic global world, and so consumers are more diverse
Sharitta Marshall: than ever. And ignoring the impact
Sharitta Marshall: of systemic inequities in a capitalist society
Sharitta Marshall: is going to pretty much create the ruin of
Sharitta Marshall: capitalism. I tell people that equity is the antithesis
Sharitta Marshall: of capitalism. And where wherever equity
Sharitta Marshall: thrives, capitalism dies a little bit. So from the
Sharitta Marshall: standpoint of organizations in ERGs, I
Sharitta Marshall: am introducing the, I guess, the partnership, if
Sharitta Marshall: you will, between equity and capitalism. I understand we live in a
Sharitta Marshall: capitalist society. I understand I'm dealing with capitalist
Sharitta Marshall: organizations. And for all of their, yes, we would like to, you know,
Sharitta Marshall: have diverse teams, and we wanna, you know, create equality and
Sharitta Marshall: equity. They have a bottom line that they have to
Sharitta Marshall: adhere to. And my point is that you can impact your
Sharitta Marshall: bottom line in a positive way, but you don't have to continuously
Sharitta Marshall: traumatize people to pay bills. And when you have an ERG
Sharitta Marshall: program that is truly set up to create equity, not just
Sharitta Marshall: from the fact of having creating those psychological safe
Sharitta Marshall: spaces, but having the ability for your leaders to upscale
Sharitta Marshall: themselves so that they can have a career that truly reflects
Sharitta Marshall: their education experience and know how. Having
Sharitta Marshall: executive sponsors that are truly sponsors and sponsors those leaders
Sharitta Marshall: those leaders in spaces and places where they are not Jo that
Sharitta Marshall: they have an opportunity to have that sponsorship and say, you
Sharitta Marshall: know what? Joanne has been a great ERG leader, and I think she will
Sharitta Marshall: be a phenomenal director in this position. And I've been working with
Sharitta Marshall: her and blah blah blah blah blah blah. That sponsorship, that is
Sharitta Marshall: giving people access to spaces, places, and people that they
Sharitta Marshall: normally wouldn't have access to, and that creates equity. And
Sharitta Marshall: then understanding your diverse clientele and community.
Sharitta Marshall: We are moving into the Gen z workforce,
Sharitta Marshall: and soon thereafter, the Gen Alpha. They have a very different
Sharitta Marshall: perspective on, 1, how they wanna work in organizations
Sharitta Marshall: they wanna work for as well as organizations that they wanna actually
Sharitta Marshall: support and spend money with. And it would be to organization's
Sharitta Marshall: detriment to ignore what they're looking for and how they can
Sharitta Marshall: cultivate a culture not just for talent to come
Sharitta Marshall: in and stay, but also to bring in those
Sharitta Marshall: new consumer bases that are coming up.
Joanne Lockwood: Right. I I love what you said in there. Acts to spaces,
Joanne Lockwood: places, and people. And you often, if
Joanne Lockwood: you hold privilege, you don't realize how
Joanne Lockwood: empowered you are compared with people who are
Joanne Lockwood: marginalized, voiceless, however you want to describe Joanne who who has less privilege,
Joanne Lockwood: is that access to spacespaces and people, the
Joanne Lockwood: networks, the unwritten rules, the the things that in the back of
Joanne Lockwood: society that you you don't see advertised. They're just you know because
Joanne Lockwood: you know. So it's just it's just like you say,
Joanne Lockwood: ERGs with the exec with the right exec sponsors, the right
Joanne Lockwood: mentorship programs, the right acceleration programs,
Joanne Lockwood: provide that access to the to what you
Joanne Lockwood: don't know. You didn't even know it exists, let alone you don't know. So that's
Joanne Lockwood: quite that's quite it's a very powerful way of saying it. And, because a part
Joanne Lockwood: of the problem is definitely not having access to that. So
Joanne Lockwood: what other ways are you working with that?
Sharitta Marshall: Well, through my management my program management services,
Sharitta Marshall: I make sure that, 1, they are strategic
Sharitta Marshall: in their build out of their ERG program, meaning that
Sharitta Marshall: their goals for the overarching program, which is overall
Sharitta Marshall: of the individual ERGs, are directly tied to the organization's
Sharitta Marshall: business priorities or outcomes either for that year or a
Sharitta Marshall: span of a couple years. In order for ERGs,
Sharitta Marshall: 1, to be supported, funded, and have
Sharitta Marshall: accountability from leadership, there has to be a direct connection
Sharitta Marshall: to the organization's business priorities. There has to be impact
Sharitta Marshall: shown. There has to be metrics. There has to be data collected.
Sharitta Marshall: And that can't be done if there is not a direct
Sharitta Marshall: connection to what is impacting the organization.
Sharitta Marshall: So I make sure that, 1, the program is connected to
Sharitta Marshall: those business priorities, but also that they're connected in a way that
Sharitta Marshall: does not burden the program. It is not the
Sharitta Marshall: ERG's responsibility to handle all of the DEI objectives. It is
Sharitta Marshall: not the ERG's responsibility to handle all of the talent acquisition
Sharitta Marshall: objectives, But it is part of their responsibility to
Sharitta Marshall: directly impact those business priorities that they can have a
Sharitta Marshall: very powerful impact for, and what does that look like.
Sharitta Marshall: And being able to lay out a project plan,
Sharitta Marshall: including time timeline resources needed, making sure
Sharitta Marshall: that leadership not only understands what the
Sharitta Marshall: program is, the goals that they're tied to, but also
Sharitta Marshall: holding them accountable for success. When I say leadership, I just don't mean,
Sharitta Marshall: like, c suite. I mean, middle managers. They need to understand
Sharitta Marshall: that they're directly tied to the ERG success because they need to make sure that
Sharitta Marshall: leaders have the support and ability to get those objectives
Sharitta Marshall: done. And then creating a strategic
Sharitta Marshall: implementation plan that is flexible enough to adjust with the business. Because
Sharitta Marshall: as we all know, business happens. Sometimes priorities shift
Sharitta Marshall: and change, and things happen with the business where sometimes they're like, hey. We're not
Sharitta Marshall: even doing this anymore. So being able to have that flexibility to
Sharitta Marshall: pivot whenever those things come up are also important as
Sharitta Marshall: well. Because, again, when you treat the ERGs as your
Sharitta Marshall: business unit, it is just like any other unit, like marketing,
Sharitta Marshall: products, sales. They have their objectives. They have their resources
Sharitta Marshall: needed, but they also know that sometimes the plan has to pivot.
Sharitta Marshall: So by making sure the plan is flexible enough to
Sharitta Marshall: pivot, you are still aiming for those goals and for that
Sharitta Marshall: success, but also giving grace to the program in
Sharitta Marshall: case things need to change that are completely out of the program's goal
Sharitta Marshall: I mean, control. Yeah. I mean, you talked earlier about yep. You
Joanne Lockwood: just been saying there about the ERG has to be seen like a business
Joanne Lockwood: unit with exec or senior sponsorship to give them that
Joanne Lockwood: voice. It's too often the case, though,
Joanne Lockwood: and I'm afraid I didn't come across this too often, where the ERG
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't have strategic access. It doesn't have strategic importance.
Joanne Lockwood: It becomes a talking shop, an echo chamber of of the
Joanne Lockwood: same voices, but change never occurs. The frustration
Joanne Lockwood: often often is is around trying to find this exec sponsor who
Joanne Lockwood: has the ability to make make change. How do you work with
Joanne Lockwood: organizations to find and empower an exec sponsor to take
Joanne Lockwood: over ownership of the their particular ERG, if you like? Because
Joanne Lockwood: it's that's the hard business. Actually, that's not the hard bit.
Sharitta Marshall: The hard bit is getting them to actually do things.
Sharitta Marshall: So I always start with roles and responsibilities for the leaders, including the
Sharitta Marshall: Executive Sponsors. A lot of times, Executive Sponsors within organizations
Sharitta Marshall: are either volunteer or are voluntold to do something within
Sharitta Marshall: the ERG space, but they don't know what that means. They're like, well, do I
Sharitta Marshall: just go to meetings? Do I just say, hey. You know, I'm the executive sponsor,
Sharitta Marshall: and that's it. I think it's very important to have the roles and
Sharitta Marshall: responsibilities laid out. Jo, 1, the executive sponsor knows what
Sharitta Marshall: is expected of them, but then if there is a point where they're
Sharitta Marshall: not willing to commit or cannot, that someone else is
Sharitta Marshall: selected. Because the worst thing to do is assign somebody or
Sharitta Marshall: have someone volunteer and they do absolutely nothing. And there there's
Sharitta Marshall: no support. There's no sponsorship. There's no advocacy.
Sharitta Marshall: And that role is super important,
Sharitta Marshall: especially from a program standpoint. Because if the ERG
Sharitta Marshall: program, including the individual ERGs, are having impediments to their
Sharitta Marshall: goals, it is the executive sponsor's role to step in and deal with those
Sharitta Marshall: impediments. If I am the executive sponsor for, let's say, the
Sharitta Marshall: black ERG, and 1 of their goals is to get to more
Sharitta Marshall: diverse conferences. And we've agreed and said yes. And then
Sharitta Marshall: now they're like, okay. Here are the 2 conferences. This is the budget,
Sharitta Marshall: and they don't get approval. And they're getting the runaround. They're like, hey. We
Sharitta Marshall: this was agreed to. What's happening? And then my job as executive sponsor
Sharitta Marshall: is like, hey. You know, what happened to the budget budget for this? This was
Sharitta Marshall: agreed to. They need to do this in order to do x, y, and z.
Sharitta Marshall: So that is something that is part of the executive sponsor's role,
Sharitta Marshall: or at least it should be. But if they don't know what is expected of
Sharitta Marshall: them, then they either don't do anything or do what they feel
Sharitta Marshall: is important, but that might not Jo
Joanne Lockwood: your programs, have and do your programs have so that you you
Joanne Lockwood: talk about making sure that they're performing and you use to add the role specs
Joanne Lockwood: and the roles on to it. Do do we actually train them? I mean, I
Joanne Lockwood: I would guess that Well, there should be training to most yeah. Yeah.
Sharitta Marshall: There should be at least an onboarding so that they know, like, hey. Here's how
Sharitta Marshall: this works. This is what you'll have access to. This is how you
Sharitta Marshall: communicate with your leadership. These are, like, the, you know,
Sharitta Marshall: quarterly meetings of the executive sponsors and the ERG program manager
Sharitta Marshall: to talk about the goals, where you are to go, how,
Sharitta Marshall: you know, you can support the program, whatever it is that
Sharitta Marshall: is your onboarding plan. That should be in place for
Sharitta Marshall: the executive sponsors as well as the ERG leaders. There should be
Sharitta Marshall: a laid out onboarding process, including the succession Joanne. Because, you
Sharitta Marshall: know, people leave, change positions, stuff happens, so you
Sharitta Marshall: don't wanna leave your program and your leadership just kind of, like,
Sharitta Marshall: vacant and out there where they're like, well, we don't know what to do now.
Sharitta Marshall: That, you know, causes chaos, but then also doesn't lend
Sharitta Marshall: people to want to participate because they're like, well, what's the
Sharitta Marshall: point? You know, you guys aren't really doing anything, or we do stuff
Sharitta Marshall: and then nothing happens. So you want to make sure there's transparency,
Sharitta Marshall: but also there are laid out plans so everyone knows what to do, how to
Sharitta Marshall: do it, and when to do it. But how do we stop the ERGs becoming
Joanne Lockwood: AA1 person crusade for their particular
Joanne Lockwood: their focal point? Now they they get have a passion around, they've been wronged, or
Joanne Lockwood: they have something they wanna try and solve. The the the danger is you end
Joanne Lockwood: up spending all your time dealing with single issues. It's trying to how how do
Joanne Lockwood: you keep the ERG focused on more strategic, bigger goals?
Sharitta Marshall: It comes from the program itself. When the program has the strategic goals that are
Sharitta Marshall: aligned with the business outcomes, it is the individual ERGs
Sharitta Marshall: to have those projects and initiatives that directly connect to
Sharitta Marshall: those program goals. So if the program goal is
Sharitta Marshall: to increase diverse leadership throughout the organization by 2%,
Sharitta Marshall: 1 of the projects that each of the ERGs has
Sharitta Marshall: is leadership development. What does that look like? Is that upskilling the
Sharitta Marshall: leaders? Is that offering management courses to the team
Sharitta Marshall: members? Whatever those agreed upon projects
Sharitta Marshall: are. So the connection to the program
Sharitta Marshall: is what ties them together, but also
Sharitta Marshall: understanding that that upskilling of these members
Sharitta Marshall: and leaders are important to that group because
Sharitta Marshall: they haven't had access to leadership development because they are
Sharitta Marshall: individual contributors. They haven't been able to be
Sharitta Marshall: seen by directors in higher level management
Sharitta Marshall: because they're individual contributors, but now they're doing presentations
Sharitta Marshall: around the program goals to to date.
Sharitta Marshall: They're presenting that. They, you know, they have that ability to do that so that
Sharitta Marshall: they have that visibility. That lends itself to that
Sharitta Marshall: upscaling and leveraging for career success. So
Sharitta Marshall: when I say that the program goals and individual ERGs
Sharitta Marshall: should be tied to the organization's business priorities, I don't mean
Sharitta Marshall: that to be the detriment to the individual ERGs and what they're trying to do.
Sharitta Marshall: I mean that to create a holistic, everyone is going in the same
Sharitta Marshall: direction type of strategy. We're we're
Joanne Lockwood: mid 2024, so June 2024 at the moment when we're recording
Joanne Lockwood: this. The US is in its political cycle
Joanne Lockwood: of going to having a an election not in not too
Joanne Lockwood: distant future, a change of well, potentially a change of of,
Joanne Lockwood: leader, maybe not. The UK is just going through its cycle
Joanne Lockwood: of general elections at the moment. We've got ours in about 2 or 3 weeks'
Joanne Lockwood: time. There's a a lot of pushback
Joanne Lockwood: and a lot of political divide on the value
Joanne Lockwood: of EDI initiatives both at
Joanne Lockwood: government level, central government, also devolved government, state
Joanne Lockwood: level in the US. We're seeing a lot of pushback in the UK around
Joanne Lockwood: government department having their DEI budget slash
Joanne Lockwood: slash being almost forced and told not to invest in DEI. So DEI is is
Joanne Lockwood: starting to become a kind of a toxic word. How how
Joanne Lockwood: do you find that organizations are responding? I mean, you you
Joanne Lockwood: do do you find the people you work with are in government
Joanne Lockwood: organizations of having their budgets cut, or do you find you in in the
Joanne Lockwood: public and private sector who have more access to funds? What's the what's the
Joanne Lockwood: political climate around DEI these days? Well, I do find that
Sharitta Marshall: there is definitely cuts within DEI,
Sharitta Marshall: not just funding, but is existing in public
Sharitta Marshall: the public and the private sector. So that's absolutely
Sharitta Marshall: real. And the pushback around DEI,
Sharitta Marshall: to be quite honest with you, is coming from white
Sharitta Marshall: supremacists and Joanne black sentiment. What they're going after
Sharitta Marshall: legally is using a lot of
Sharitta Marshall: the legislator that legislation that was put into place
Sharitta Marshall: to give equity to formerly enslaved black
Sharitta Marshall: Americans against current black Americans. And
Sharitta Marshall: the standpoint of that is directly
Sharitta Marshall: connected to, you know, individuals through higher
Sharitta Marshall: education, them halting scholarships
Sharitta Marshall: that are for black students, from a halting
Sharitta Marshall: of funds that are available to black women
Sharitta Marshall: funders. There's a lot of antiblackness that
Sharitta Marshall: drives the continued push to erase
Sharitta Marshall: DEI. And, again, what I said
Sharitta Marshall: earlier is that equity is the antithesis
Sharitta Marshall: of capitalism. So the push for equity to give
Sharitta Marshall: everyone the correct resources they need to
Sharitta Marshall: thrive chips away at the foundation of capitalism.
Sharitta Marshall: And the people that are late stage, true die hard
Sharitta Marshall: capitalists do not want equity to exist because that takes
Sharitta Marshall: away their control of the majority,
Sharitta Marshall: be it the small percentage of the individuals and organizations that they
Sharitta Marshall: are. So from my standpoint, I come
Sharitta Marshall: at it understanding that and not ignoring that and not
Sharitta Marshall: standing on it. Well, this is the right thing to do because it's the right
Sharitta Marshall: thing to do. I'm standing on this is
Sharitta Marshall: the right thing to do, and this is how you can still make money doing
Sharitta Marshall: it. You don't have to traumatize people
Sharitta Marshall: in order to make money. You don't have to be a person that's
Sharitta Marshall: continually traumatized in order to pay your bills. There is
Sharitta Marshall: a way to exist happily in the meaning.
Sharitta Marshall: But, yeah, my standpoint is always taking it from the
Sharitta Marshall: ethereal DEI. We have so much data, so
Sharitta Marshall: many reports, so many Harvard Business Review, so
Sharitta Marshall: much, but people don't equate it to
Sharitta Marshall: their individual impact. So showing organizations,
Sharitta Marshall: hey. Here's what is costing you to continuously have
Sharitta Marshall: people leave. Here is your loss of knowledge cost. Here is your
Sharitta Marshall: talent acquisition cost, and here is your inability to hire
Sharitta Marshall: Gen z and Gen Alpha because they do not trust you. This is what it's
Sharitta Marshall: gonna cost you. And when they're able to see that bottom line, they're actually
Sharitta Marshall: able to make that very tangible connection to
Sharitta Marshall: why DEI matters. And that's where I
Sharitta Marshall: come from, and that's where I've been coming from for the past year. I think
Sharitta Marshall: people are just now paying attention to it. But I come from it
Sharitta Marshall: from a very, here is the cost. Here is either the cost
Sharitta Marshall: you're gonna pay. Here is the cost savings you can have, or and here is
Sharitta Marshall: how you can make money. Yeah. I mean, you live in a a very
Joanne Lockwood: politically polarized country.
Joanne Lockwood: We I live in a a very politically polarized country where there's
Joanne Lockwood: 2 main parties or 2 main schools are thinking.
Joanne Lockwood: And the sad thing is what you're saying makes perfect sense. You
Joanne Lockwood: know, as you say, McKinsey, HBR, all these type of
Joanne Lockwood: reviews are out there. We've we've seen it. We we can quantify it.
Joanne Lockwood: We and there's evidence. But, yeah, a large percentage of the
Joanne Lockwood: population, both in the US and in the UK,
Joanne Lockwood: somehow don't get it. And it's it's not like it's a minor part. It's it's
Joanne Lockwood: almost it's almost a majority view. That's the scary thing, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? It is. And I do believe
Sharitta Marshall: that it comes from the lens of a lack of empathy,
Sharitta Marshall: But then also, it comes from the
Sharitta Marshall: propagandist capitalist view that,
Sharitta Marshall: you know, if you let anyone have anything, then
Sharitta Marshall: they're taking away from you. And they're not working as hard as
Sharitta Marshall: you, and they're gonna take away everything that you worked for. And how
Sharitta Marshall: dare they get something and didn't work as hard as you? That doesn't
Sharitta Marshall: work. But, again, it does not address the
Sharitta Marshall: systemic inequities that exist. It acts like those systemic
Sharitta Marshall: inequities don't exist, have no impact,
Sharitta Marshall: and should be thought as some type of mythical fairy tale that
Sharitta Marshall: people are using to, quote, unquote, push DEI down their throats.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's this it's this belief in the the bullshit, if I'm
Joanne Lockwood: a better phrase, of meritocracy. It's it's calling that out and saying, hang
Joanne Lockwood: on. Yeah. It's meritocracy only works in
Joanne Lockwood: this cloud of mist and and mysteriousness. You know? When you when you
Joanne Lockwood: shine a light on it, you bring equity, you bring sexuality into it.
Joanne Lockwood: Meritocracy very rarely is what happens.
Joanne Lockwood: Privilege, biases, stereotypes, beliefs,
Joanne Lockwood: perspectives, everything clouds the meritocracy. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: it's it's hard to I was gonna say argue.
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't mean argue. Dissuade is probably a better way better word. I don't wanna
Joanne Lockwood: I don't like arguing with people. It's it's hard to share a perspective where
Joanne Lockwood: people could buy into the vision of of true equity
Joanne Lockwood: because they always feel and I think you said this. The the the
Joanne Lockwood: sense has been taken away from them. If I give you something, I
Joanne Lockwood: lose. Mhmm. And it's trying to get away from that 0
Joanne Lockwood: sum game where actually we just create bigger
Joanne Lockwood: tables. We create more and not not take things away from you. We
Joanne Lockwood: we amplify people. It's hard to get people to see that, isn't it? It is.
Sharitta Marshall: It is very hard to get them to see that. So it's always
Sharitta Marshall: for me, it's me constantly showing everyone what's
Sharitta Marshall: what's in it for them. What do they get out of it? Because that's the
Sharitta Marshall: only way they'll pay attention to the conversation, to be honest with you. If they
Sharitta Marshall: don't hear what's in it for them, they are not interested in the conversation.
Sharitta Marshall: Now there are some people that no matter what you say, it doesn't matter. They're
Sharitta Marshall: just not. They don't care. It's it it is what it is.
Sharitta Marshall: But definitely being able to show what's in it
Sharitta Marshall: for them is very key to shifting the
Sharitta Marshall: balance, so that it's not so many people on 1
Sharitta Marshall: side versus the other. I would like nobody to be on the side
Sharitta Marshall: of anti DEI, anti blackness, but, you know,
Sharitta Marshall: that's not gonna be the case. But however, we can shift the balance
Sharitta Marshall: for people to understand that we are all connected Jo
Sharitta Marshall: matter what people wanna say or think. Everything is a
Sharitta Marshall: domino effect that happens in the world because we are a global
Sharitta Marshall: collective society. We are not
Sharitta Marshall: siloed the way people think that we are. People have
Sharitta Marshall: the disillusion that geography silos
Sharitta Marshall: us from what's happening in different parts of the
Sharitta Marshall: world. And, yes, we would not necessarily feel the physical
Sharitta Marshall: impacts per se directly, but a lot of it is,
Sharitta Marshall: again, a domino effect. The things that happen in other
Sharitta Marshall: countries affect us. They affect us financially. They affect us emotionally.
Sharitta Marshall: They affect, you know, our ability to, you know,
Sharitta Marshall: do business in a global economic society.
Sharitta Marshall: They affect how, you know, we are dealing with
Sharitta Marshall: climate change. Everything is connected. And once we
Sharitta Marshall: can understand that as a collective global community,
Sharitta Marshall: what impacts 1 will eventually impact another. I
Sharitta Marshall: think that is 1 of the ways that we'll finally get it. But until we
Sharitta Marshall: get to that point, just showing and connecting the dots so that
Sharitta Marshall: people understand and get that is liberation for all or
Sharitta Marshall: liberation for none? Yeah. I mean, you you say that a lot of this is
Joanne Lockwood: is a race discrimination, race
Joanne Lockwood: bias, and and understanding the the challenges of of race.
Joanne Lockwood: It's very intersectional, don't we? You look at I look at what what I'm seeing,
Joanne Lockwood: and there's a lot of oppressing of women
Joanne Lockwood: in in terms of their abortion rights, in terms of
Joanne Lockwood: being able to succeed in the world. So a lot of it's impacting women, and
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of it is around LGBTQIA plus people and 2 spirit people as
Joanne Lockwood: well. It's there's a it's an intersectional lens here, and it it's it's almost
Joanne Lockwood: like multiple attack vectors on marginalized minority
Joanne Lockwood: groups to appease majority
Joanne Lockwood: people with privilege. And I think it's it's it's multifaceted some some
Joanne Lockwood: of this attack, isn't it? Oh, it's always multifaceted because we
Sharitta Marshall: are not monoliths as human beings. When I focus
Sharitta Marshall: on race, I'm focused on race from a legislation a
Sharitta Marshall: legislative point here in the US. But it is not
Sharitta Marshall: just, you know, about race. It's about
Sharitta Marshall: gender. It's about class. It's about disability.
Sharitta Marshall: It's it's about all of it. It's about the caste system that
Sharitta Marshall: exists globally. Everyone is
Sharitta Marshall: a individual, but they are multifaceted
Sharitta Marshall: individuals. You have so many different components that make up you
Sharitta Marshall: as Joanne, just like I have different components that make me up as
Sharitta Marshall: Sharitta. So 1 attack on 1 component of
Sharitta Marshall: me may not seem that detrimental, but that
Sharitta Marshall: 1 impact or that 1 attack attacks me as a
Sharitta Marshall: whole because it never stops with 1 thing. And I think that's
Sharitta Marshall: what people don't get. It's never just 1 thing. It's never just gender. It's
Sharitta Marshall: never just race. It's all of it because it's
Sharitta Marshall: about the global minority
Sharitta Marshall: holding, keeping, and controlling what
Sharitta Marshall: they control and not allowing anyone to
Sharitta Marshall: see that. That is what we're fighting against. We should not
Sharitta Marshall: be fighting 1 another. We should be fighting the cap the late stage
Sharitta Marshall: capitalist control that is killing our planet,
Sharitta Marshall: that is taking away our liberties as human beings to exist
Sharitta Marshall: in whatever way, shape, form, or fashion we choose to show up in our
Sharitta Marshall: lives. And that is the most dangerous thing that we can
Sharitta Marshall: continue to ignore. How do we make sure
Joanne Lockwood: our ERGs or staff networks think intersectionally?
Joanne Lockwood: Because there's the danger that we we divide
Joanne Lockwood: our focus. We focus on race. We focus on gender. We focus on
Joanne Lockwood: sexuality, whatever it may be. If we're not careful, what happens is we we end
Joanne Lockwood: up having to have a foot in multiple camps because the ERGs
Joanne Lockwood: are polarized. How do we create intersectional approaches in our organizations
Joanne Lockwood: and leverage this ERG power intersectionally?
Joanne Lockwood: How do we how do we do that? Well, 1 of the things that I
Sharitta Marshall: always do is let people know that,
Sharitta Marshall: you know, as a because I was a global ERG leader, but I
Sharitta Marshall: was the leader of 1 particular ERG, but I was a member
Sharitta Marshall: of 5 others. So understanding that
Sharitta Marshall: just because I'm a leader in 1, I'm a member of
Sharitta Marshall: 5. So what the other 5 are doing, I'm still a part of. I'm
Sharitta Marshall: just not leading it because I'm leading this 1 over here. It's just like if
Sharitta Marshall: I was the director of marketing, I'm still working with product, I'm still working with
Sharitta Marshall: sales, but I'm just leading this over here. It's the same
Sharitta Marshall: thing. So again, going back to when I said it's
Sharitta Marshall: a strategic business unit, it is a part of it should be
Sharitta Marshall: holistically a part of the whole organization because, again, it's making
Sharitta Marshall: up people that should be in existence in every part of the
Sharitta Marshall: organization. And if you have an ERG program and you see
Sharitta Marshall: that you don't have any executives, you don't have any
Sharitta Marshall: directors, you don't have anybody that is in any of these
Sharitta Marshall: ERGs, then maybe you need to look at that because they should represent the
Sharitta Marshall: entire organization. So there should be no silo because your
Sharitta Marshall: members and your leaders should represent all of your organization.
Sharitta Marshall: That's the community. That's the holistic making sure that
Sharitta Marshall: it is organically a part of the organization.
Sharitta Marshall: And then also having that program where everyone is driving in
Sharitta Marshall: the same direction. How they get to their goal may be different, but the
Sharitta Marshall: whole point is that we're all going in the same direction. Event, we're
Sharitta Marshall: supporting it. We want to make
Sharitta Marshall: sure if an ERG is is
Sharitta Marshall: event. We're supporting it. We want to make sure if an ERG is
Sharitta Marshall: is struggling with membership or they have any impediments, if
Sharitta Marshall: we're able to help them with that, we support that because we know because we're
Sharitta Marshall: having meetings and talking to each other. So, again,
Sharitta Marshall: the ERGs are a holistic part of the organization. So
Sharitta Marshall: there should be transparency, communication, again,
Sharitta Marshall: going in the same direction for the goals even if we are
Sharitta Marshall: on different lanes. So that's how you reduce the silo, and
Sharitta Marshall: that's how you truly make it not just a
Sharitta Marshall: strategic business unit, but a community for the
Sharitta Marshall: betterment of every team member, regardless of
Sharitta Marshall: if I am a member as an ally or if I'm a member identifying
Sharitta Marshall: as a member of the group or or if I'm a leader. Yeah. I've worked
Joanne Lockwood: with a number of organizations, and you can tell when they're they have
Joanne Lockwood: strategic importance because ERG start to pull their
Joanne Lockwood: resources. They they share their budget. They do joint
Joanne Lockwood: marketing. They put on joint events, and then but I've seen other organizations
Joanne Lockwood: where there's a a competitive nature, where they don't talk. They
Joanne Lockwood: they're not crossing over, and then you have to decide which
Joanne Lockwood: camp you have your foot in, or sometimes you have to sort of swap between
Joanne Lockwood: them. So, yeah, I think you're right. It's it's completely been
Joanne Lockwood: with the ERGs being strategic, having seen level sponsorship coordinated,
Joanne Lockwood: and was was I I was described by having a as a as a network
Joanne Lockwood: of networks. Mhmm. It's almost like I have a an overarching
Joanne Lockwood: all the ERG leaders meet together, and so they can
Joanne Lockwood: they can strategize and and coordinate with their their their
Joanne Lockwood: their activities amongst each other. I think that's really, really important Jo you don't you
Joanne Lockwood: don't create these sort of little silos. But the the problem I
Joanne Lockwood: I always face is is about getting allies into the room.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's it's the chance of of the echo chamber is not specifically around
Joanne Lockwood: the ERGs. It's any initiative where we're talking about I don't
Joanne Lockwood: know. I don't know if you've experienced this from a from a Joanne racism perspective,
Joanne Lockwood: but I've seen it from a gender perspective and Joanne LGBTQ plus perspective where
Joanne Lockwood: you you you were in the echo chamber of the people who hold that
Joanne Lockwood: characteristic. And the people you actually want in the room listening and taking
Joanne Lockwood: action are the people who are the allies, the people with privilege, the people
Joanne Lockwood: who are enablers of change. And that's a
Joanne Lockwood: real challenge of of getting people to be interested in
Joanne Lockwood: something they're not. How do how do you tackle that? There are a couple of
Sharitta Marshall: different ways I do that. 1 of which is making sure
Sharitta Marshall: that the mission, vision, and goal of the
Sharitta Marshall: not just the ERG program, but the individual ERGs are available to the
Sharitta Marshall: entire organization, Making sure that the
Sharitta Marshall: road map to the goals of the program are available to the
Sharitta Marshall: organization, and this can be done through,
Sharitta Marshall: having the program manager or ERG leader talking in all hands and
Sharitta Marshall: sharing that information or doing a road show
Sharitta Marshall: throughout the organization to say, hey. This is what we're doing. This is what we're
Sharitta Marshall: planning. This is how you can support. Having individual
Sharitta Marshall: ERGs share their language and terminologies so that everybody in
Sharitta Marshall: organization has access to that. And then having
Sharitta Marshall: community events where information about the
Sharitta Marshall: ERGs members, their lived experience is shared. So people
Sharitta Marshall: get to have access to understand that
Sharitta Marshall: There is power in storytelling, and
Sharitta Marshall: there's power in having the ability to
Sharitta Marshall: share your lived experience from your lived experience
Sharitta Marshall: Jo that people can have an insight and maybe create
Sharitta Marshall: empathy around that. But, again, the transparency
Sharitta Marshall: and the communication is the only way that the
Sharitta Marshall: allies can really be allies. There can't be,
Sharitta Marshall: okay, the ERGs exist over here. They're doing stuff. It has to be,
Sharitta Marshall: hey. You know, here this ERG event coming up with x, y, and z.
Sharitta Marshall: Here's the ERG celebration calendar that celebrates
Sharitta Marshall: all things related to, you know, DEI,
Sharitta Marshall: and that includes accessibility, Hispanic heritage,
Sharitta Marshall: so on and so forth. So people are aware of what these things are,
Sharitta Marshall: giving a brief history that can be shared throughout the community, so that
Sharitta Marshall: people understand what things are. And I believe in doing it from a
Sharitta Marshall: global perspective because everyone has different lived experience.
Sharitta Marshall: There is not 1 Black experience for
Sharitta Marshall: everyone. There is not 1 Black American experience for everyone.
Sharitta Marshall: So being able to share those different experiences,
Sharitta Marshall: celebrations is so very important for
Sharitta Marshall: allies to really understand diverse lived
Sharitta Marshall: experiences, and then telling them how they can support.
Sharitta Marshall: I think that is just the easiest and most overlooked thing. Being
Sharitta Marshall: direct with your allies and say, this is how you can support us.
Sharitta Marshall: When people don't have to try to figure it out, because a lot of
Sharitta Marshall: times they won't because they'll be too scared to, when you tell them, hey. This
Sharitta Marshall: is exactly what we need as this ERG. Not
Sharitta Marshall: don't go out here and do this for everybody because we're not speaking for everyone.
Sharitta Marshall: We're just speaking for us. This is what we need from you to support us.
Sharitta Marshall: It makes it a lot easier for allies to show up and
Sharitta Marshall: then show up in a way that's best supportive of who they're trying to
Sharitta Marshall: support. I completely concur that that that should be the
Joanne Lockwood: way. But the reality is, you know, we're no matter how
Joanne Lockwood: much we push and and and talk about this, needle isn't moving that far, is
Joanne Lockwood: it? It's frustratingly, glacially slow.
Sharitta Marshall: It is. That's why I I push to do
Sharitta Marshall: what I do with so many global organizations because I
Sharitta Marshall: want that to be the best practice. I want that to be the
Sharitta Marshall: norm Jo that the needle isn't slowly
Sharitta Marshall: pushed. The needle starts to just flow downstream. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, I'm with you. I'm with you completely. And, yeah, it's
Joanne Lockwood: it's frustrating, though, isn't it? As a as a DEI practitioner, as someone who has
Joanne Lockwood: worked in the organization because no matter how much we want it to be a
Joanne Lockwood: business priority, somehow it's never quite on the list. You
Joanne Lockwood: know? They'll invest organization often invest in
Joanne Lockwood: leadership development training, but they often forget to mention
Joanne Lockwood: around the inclusive leadership development training. They talk about others other
Joanne Lockwood: skills, or they'll they'll be more focused on sales or business
Joanne Lockwood: development or growth or or organizational development, not
Joanne Lockwood: around those well-being and DEI initiatives. And it's it's
Joanne Lockwood: frustrating sometimes to see whether the budget is being spent.
Joanne Lockwood: But does do do you think that DEI has a tangible
Joanne Lockwood: ROI that the business understands? If if they understood the ROI
Joanne Lockwood: or or it's it's all badly implemented. Well, they can if we
Sharitta Marshall: show them. If we come from the perspective of,
Sharitta Marshall: okay. According to Gallup poll, you are going to spend
Sharitta Marshall: between 1.5 to 2 times your
Sharitta Marshall: salary each year for every overhead turn.
Sharitta Marshall: So how much how many overhead turns have you had in this past
Sharitta Marshall: quarter? Okay. It's been, you know, let's say,
Sharitta Marshall: 200. Okay. So it's cost you $2, 000, 000 this
Sharitta Marshall: past quarter in your overturn. What has been your
Sharitta Marshall: exit interview information? Oh, you haven't done that. So you don't even know why people
Sharitta Marshall: are leaving. So you're just so you're okay with spending this this $2,
Sharitta Marshall: 000, 000. Let's just say you're spending this $2, 000, 000 every quarter.
Sharitta Marshall: So at the end of the quarter, you know, you have this
Sharitta Marshall: you have this 8, 000, 000 in in overturn. Is this
Sharitta Marshall: to the percent of churn your employee churn? Is is
Sharitta Marshall: this this acceptable amount? Okay. So this is acceptable amount.
Sharitta Marshall: Were you looking to save costs at any point in time this year? Yes.
Sharitta Marshall: How are you gonna do that? You're gonna lay off. Okay.
Sharitta Marshall: So you have a cost of $2, 000, 000 for people leaving, but you
Sharitta Marshall: think laying off people is gonna save you the money. How much money is the
Sharitta Marshall: layoff gonna save you? It's gonna save you 6, 000, 000. Okay. This layoff is
Sharitta Marshall: gonna save you 6, 000, 000, but it's costing you 8, 000, 000 in in
Sharitta Marshall: your employee turn. How about you switch the focus from lays off
Sharitta Marshall: laying off to seeing why people leave or how you
Sharitta Marshall: can keep people? Are employees engaged? Have you done an employee?
Sharitta Marshall: It's it's really coming down to the quantifiables because when you
Sharitta Marshall: can have those conversations, people take it a lot more seriously
Sharitta Marshall: versus if we continue to say, you know, hey.
Sharitta Marshall: This should be done, and diversity is important because it does
Sharitta Marshall: lead to innovation and growth. Yeah. It does. We again, to your
Sharitta Marshall: point, McKinsey, Harvard, they have all this documentation. They
Sharitta Marshall: but people don't really care when it's not directly tied
Sharitta Marshall: to them. It's not directly tied to their budget at the end of the
Sharitta Marshall: year or the sales growth they're supposed to have or their
Sharitta Marshall: ARR. You have to make it very tangible for these
Sharitta Marshall: organizations, and then that's when they are more than likely, not
Sharitta Marshall: all the time, but more than likely to take it a lot more seriously and
Sharitta Marshall: be willing to redirect funding resources
Sharitta Marshall: and support. Yeah. I think you're right. I think it it
Joanne Lockwood: it's we have Jo I think what we need to do is we need to
Joanne Lockwood: start driving home the ROI, driving home the the business benefit. As you say, the,
Joanne Lockwood: the MTC cost, the the onboarding cost, the the hiring cost,
Joanne Lockwood: all these things are tangible cost to a business where
Joanne Lockwood: you start to understand the impact of poor poor employee experience,
Joanne Lockwood: high turnover, low discretionary effort, low
Joanne Lockwood: cyclical safety in organizations. So, yeah, it it's
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of this is is is sort of seen as the soft stuff, which
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of people aren't managing and and focusing on. I think if we start
Joanne Lockwood: to drive the costs, the true cost of these in our business, then we start
Joanne Lockwood: to understand them. And then we're gonna move on to something about it. But at
Joanne Lockwood: the moment, they're kind of they're they're they're sort of hidden costs
Joanne Lockwood: as such. Mhmm. Yeah. Businesses have a have a a prediction of
Joanne Lockwood: churn. They have a prediction of rehiring. They have a prediction of on
Joanne Lockwood: onboarding. And they don't actually think, well, actually, if we could reduce that by 5%,
Joanne Lockwood: that that huge impact it would have. So, yeah, I think it's around
Joanne Lockwood: getting the accountants more focused. Maybe we need to start
Joanne Lockwood: and I and I'm I hate saying is it has you know, the business
Joanne Lockwood: case has to be in there somewhere, and I'm I'm a I'm a big
Joanne Lockwood: I'm reluctant to talk about a business case because I think you should your people
Joanne Lockwood: strategy should be around just around a business case. But I think sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: in order to make it sustainable and sticky and embedded, we have to start
Joanne Lockwood: measuring the benefit of it beyond just just
Joanne Lockwood: people's experience. And I think that's where we're starting to see
Joanne Lockwood: true benefit as as you say, as per the Harvard Business Review, as per
Joanne Lockwood: Forbes, publishing articles all the time, as per McKinsey,
Joanne Lockwood: other, etcetera, organization. So, yeah, it that's the challenge we
Joanne Lockwood: have is to try and leverage hard dollars, if
Joanne Lockwood: you like Yeah. To drive the case. Yeah. So I I hear so many
Sharitta Marshall: people. I see so many people that say that same sentiment. Like, there shouldn't be
Sharitta Marshall: a business case and we shouldn't, you know, have to, you know, make
Sharitta Marshall: the human experience a business case. But
Sharitta Marshall: we're dealing with capitalism. Like, capitalism is gonna
Sharitta Marshall: capitalize capital c and capital m all the time. It does not
Sharitta Marshall: care about the human experience. It does not care if people are traumatized
Sharitta Marshall: in order for it to exist. It doesn't care. What it cares about
Sharitta Marshall: is, is it making the money it wants to make? Is it holding the power
Sharitta Marshall: it wants to hold? And we have to
Sharitta Marshall: understand that realistically and deal with it in
Sharitta Marshall: the best way possible. Otherwise, we're still gonna be in the
Sharitta Marshall: same position. Because if a business case that
Sharitta Marshall: wasn't focused around the economics of
Sharitta Marshall: DEI was powerful and was impactful, we would not
Sharitta Marshall: be in the situation we're in. Yeah. I'm I'm pretty sure if,
Joanne Lockwood: people at Hold Privilege suddenly found that they were making more
Joanne Lockwood: money by doing this. They they sure they sure as heck would, I'm sure.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure. So what's your vision, you know, of the future? Where where's where's the
Joanne Lockwood: world going? You know, we're living in a a world of change, and
Joanne Lockwood: people say, how far have you come? I said, well, if you look over your
Joanne Lockwood: shoulder, we've come a long way in the last 40, 50, 60,
Joanne Lockwood: 100 years. But the journey's still
Joanne Lockwood: infinite in front of us and that's what do you think what's your vision? What's
Joanne Lockwood: what's gonna happen? Are we are we gonna finally get people to
Joanne Lockwood: go, oh, yeah. It is a good idea, or are we gonna still be fighting
Joanne Lockwood: this for years to come? I do believe we're gonna be fighting this
Sharitta Marshall: for years to come. I think it's gonna get to the point where
Sharitta Marshall: when late stage capitalism is no longer in the position to
Sharitta Marshall: sustain itself, when it has completely
Sharitta Marshall: worn out the the working class
Sharitta Marshall: and it can't continue to propagate and expand
Sharitta Marshall: upon itself, that that's when very
Sharitta Marshall: widespread impactful change will happen. Until
Sharitta Marshall: then, we have to keep up the fight and keep
Sharitta Marshall: pushing for, you know, what's right in a way that
Sharitta Marshall: aligns and can be heard from an organizational
Sharitta Marshall: standpoint, even higher education. We just have to keep
Sharitta Marshall: fighting the fight for those that
Sharitta Marshall: are having the lived experiences that they're having. I know
Sharitta Marshall: for me, I'm gonna fight this until I can't fight
Sharitta Marshall: it anymore because it's it's the long game.
Sharitta Marshall: I wish it was a short 1, but it is the long game. It's not
Sharitta Marshall: like we haven't been fighting this for 100 of
Sharitta Marshall: years, so I don't foresee it changing in the next
Sharitta Marshall: 5. But I just think that how we fight it, how we
Sharitta Marshall: approach it definitely does need to change. Our mindset
Sharitta Marshall: around it, our commitment to it, and
Sharitta Marshall: our ability to, 1, understand that
Sharitta Marshall: there are gonna be consequences, good or bad, for the decisions we make
Sharitta Marshall: to push DEI and change. Some of those
Sharitta Marshall: consequences are going to be us being able to make
Sharitta Marshall: some change. Some of those consequences are we
Sharitta Marshall: might be impacted negatively financially because of our stance.
Sharitta Marshall: But for me, it's, you know, it's either you go all in or you
Sharitta Marshall: don't. And there's no right or wrong about it. If
Sharitta Marshall: it's something that, you know, is going to be mentally,
Sharitta Marshall: emotionally, physically detrimental to you, then don't. But,
Sharitta Marshall: you know, if you can stay the course for however long you can stay the
Sharitta Marshall: course, there are too many people with us and
Sharitta Marshall: behind us for us to just give up. But Tuesday, 5th November
Joanne Lockwood: 2024 is, US election date. The next 5 years
Joanne Lockwood: could be hard or harder, I guess. Does it impact the work
Joanne Lockwood: you're doing? Who sat in the big chair? It definitely will impact
Sharitta Marshall: what I do. And whoever
Sharitta Marshall: ends up in that chair, it might require me to
Sharitta Marshall: pivot even further than what I'm doing and
Sharitta Marshall: do something else entirely, but the basis of what
Sharitta Marshall: I do is still gonna fight for the liberation of all. That's
Sharitta Marshall: just my purpose in life. It's liberation for all, liberation for none.
Sharitta Marshall: So regardless if I'm doing it in the particular business structure
Sharitta Marshall: that I'm doing it right now, that will be something I will continue to do
Sharitta Marshall: no matter who's in the chair. Sharitta, I wish you
Joanne Lockwood: well, most sincerely, to keep fighting the good
Joanne Lockwood: fight, to keep doing what you do, to keep that strength, and
Joanne Lockwood: to and to be on the right side of history, to keep
Joanne Lockwood: knowing that. I think that's the important thing. So how Joanne,
Joanne Lockwood: people get a hold of you if they wanna find out more? People can get
Sharitta Marshall: a hold of me on LinkedIn, Sharitta Marshall.
Sharitta Marshall: You can follow me there or connect with me there. Please feel free to DM
Sharitta Marshall: me if you would like to connect via meeting, and then you
Sharitta Marshall: can also email me at
Sharitta Marshall: info@VisionaryDevelopmentIn.com, and
Sharitta Marshall: visit my website https://visionarydevelopmentinc.com. I look
Sharitta Marshall: forward to supporting everyone in their endeavors to
Sharitta Marshall: make sure that everyone feels seen, heard, and valued. Thank you so
Joanne Lockwood: much. Thank you. As we bring
Joanne Lockwood: this conversation to a close, I want to express my
Joanne Lockwood: deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing
Joanne Lockwood: community, driving real change. Share this journey with
Joanne Lockwood: friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices
Joanne Lockwood: that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a
Joanne Lockwood: vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: 1 episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.