WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.734 --> 00:00:11.514 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.575 --> 00:00:14.934 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:14.934 --> 00:00:18.770 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart 4 00:00:18.770 --> 00:00:21.830 of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.130 --> 00:00:25.945 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:25.945 --> 00:00:29.305 a world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:29.305 --> 00:00:33.120 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:36.420 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:40.315 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.535 --> 00:00:44.075 Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.295 --> 00:00:47.115 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.660 --> 00:00:51.500 reflect, and inspire action together. Don't 13 00:00:51.500 --> 00:00:55.180 forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:55.180 --> 00:00:58.035 to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.375 --> 00:01:02.995 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.695 --> 00:01:07.450 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.450 --> 00:01:10.990 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.005 --> 00:01:18.805 And today is episode 128 with 19 00:01:18.805 --> 00:01:22.385 the title, the future of gender equity. 20 00:01:23.150 --> 00:01:26.770 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Valentina 21 00:01:26.830 --> 00:01:30.130 Jaramillo. Valentina is an empowerment 22 00:01:30.430 --> 00:01:33.784 catalyst and an inclusion advocate, a 23 00:01:33.784 --> 00:01:37.485 communications expert, and dedicated diversity, 24 00:01:37.625 --> 00:01:41.030 equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner The 25 00:01:41.030 --> 00:01:44.410 passion for creating safe spaces where everyone 26 00:01:44.790 --> 00:01:48.505 can bring their true selves and develop their full return. When I asked 27 00:01:48.505 --> 00:01:52.345 Valentina to describe their inspirational superpower, they said 28 00:01:52.345 --> 00:01:56.060 that their superpower is their honesty and using it 29 00:01:56.060 --> 00:01:59.740 to share their lived experience without judging. They would also 30 00:01:59.740 --> 00:02:03.119 say they are a good listener, creating a safe space 31 00:02:03.675 --> 00:02:06.735 for people to talk to them. Hello, Valentina. Welcome to the show. 32 00:02:07.435 --> 00:02:10.815 Hi, Jo. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. 33 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.319 I am as well. It's great to chat to you in the green room and 34 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:18.080 find out that, I'd also been to several of the places you've lived 35 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:21.665 in in the US. So, yes, quite fascinating. So, Valentina, the future 36 00:02:21.665 --> 00:02:25.425 gender equity, tell me more about that. Yes. The future 37 00:02:25.425 --> 00:02:29.180 of gender equity definitely goes beyond 38 00:02:29.180 --> 00:02:32.700 the binary and that means that it's not about 39 00:02:32.700 --> 00:02:36.305 just empowering women but actually having all 40 00:02:36.305 --> 00:02:40.064 genders represented. So I think the future of 41 00:02:40.064 --> 00:02:43.584 gender equity is that when we hear those 2 42 00:02:43.584 --> 00:02:46.740 words, gender equity, we don't necessarily hear 43 00:02:47.040 --> 00:02:50.480 women and men, but we understand that 44 00:02:50.480 --> 00:02:54.105 gender goes more than that binary, that there 45 00:02:54.105 --> 00:02:57.725 are gender nonconforming, gender nonbinary, agender, 46 00:02:57.945 --> 00:03:00.605 that there is different expressions 47 00:03:01.970 --> 00:03:05.730 and identity of gender. So that's what we 48 00:03:05.730 --> 00:03:09.510 wanna do. Use all these lived experiences and 49 00:03:10.665 --> 00:03:14.045 empower them to have diverse perspectives 50 00:03:14.345 --> 00:03:18.060 and be the workplace be a place where everybody can thrive. So 51 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:21.599 I think this is where the the gen the future of gender equity Brilliant. 52 00:03:22.140 --> 00:03:25.040 Some of my listeners probably are unsure 53 00:03:26.220 --> 00:03:30.025 around gender diversity when it comes to 54 00:03:30.025 --> 00:03:33.805 non binary identities or agender because 55 00:03:33.864 --> 00:03:37.560 agender and non binary is often an umbrella term. It encompasses a whole load 56 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:41.239 of different identities as well, doesn't it? So could you explain a little bit 57 00:03:41.239 --> 00:03:44.995 more about what it means to you maybe? Yes. Totally. I will 58 00:03:44.995 --> 00:03:48.595 first go a little 1 step back and needs to explain that 59 00:03:48.595 --> 00:03:52.355 gender identity, gender expression, and sex 60 00:03:52.355 --> 00:03:56.070 assigned at birth are 3 different things. So gender 61 00:03:56.070 --> 00:03:59.850 identity is the way we see ourselves. Gender expression 62 00:04:00.825 --> 00:04:04.505 is the way we show up to the world, the way and this includes the 63 00:04:04.505 --> 00:04:07.965 way we dress, the way we talk, and many different things. 64 00:04:08.540 --> 00:04:12.380 And, sex assigned at birth is the sex that when we were 65 00:04:12.380 --> 00:04:16.000 born and they saw our genitals, the doctor said 66 00:04:16.605 --> 00:04:20.125 this is a boy or this is a girl and this is what 67 00:04:20.125 --> 00:04:23.725 commonly we see as gender, but it is not, so it is 68 00:04:23.725 --> 00:04:27.480 different. And then when we talk about gender diverse people are 69 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:31.160 people who don't necessarily subscribe or what it means to me, right, to 70 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:34.885 necessarily subscribe to this sex assigned at 71 00:04:34.885 --> 00:04:37.465 birth as the only information 72 00:04:38.725 --> 00:04:41.120 regarding gender identity. Right? 73 00:04:42.780 --> 00:04:46.479 So non binary, yes. And they also fall, 74 00:04:46.780 --> 00:04:50.035 from my understanding, right, or the way I see it, under the transgender 75 00:04:50.255 --> 00:04:54.014 umbrella, which is basically not identifying with the gender 76 00:04:54.014 --> 00:04:57.470 you were assigned at birth. And between in 77 00:04:57.470 --> 00:05:01.310 in the transgender umbrella, we 78 00:05:01.310 --> 00:05:05.134 have people who transition or people who don't necessarily 79 00:05:05.275 --> 00:05:08.735 transition whether clinically or or, just 80 00:05:09.035 --> 00:05:12.815 socially. Right? And then there's people who definitely do not conform 81 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:16.480 to any of those, known, 82 00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:20.400 let's say, categories. Right? Jo myself, 83 00:05:20.985 --> 00:05:24.824 I identify as gender nonconforming. When there's 84 00:05:24.824 --> 00:05:28.665 a form and their only option is non binary, I will probably choose 85 00:05:28.665 --> 00:05:31.910 non binary. However, the words nonconforming 86 00:05:32.210 --> 00:05:35.830 resonate more just because I don't wanna conform to any of those norms. 87 00:05:36.050 --> 00:05:39.605 Right? Any of those, like, societal norms that have been 88 00:05:39.605 --> 00:05:43.285 described. Oh, you are a woman, so you have to be this, or you are 89 00:05:43.285 --> 00:05:46.860 a man, so you have to be that. Whether it's the way you 90 00:05:46.860 --> 00:05:50.240 look or even it has been taken even to characteristics. 91 00:05:50.700 --> 00:05:53.840 So they usually, being more compassionate 92 00:05:54.455 --> 00:05:58.075 or more sensible sensitive is feminine 93 00:05:58.135 --> 00:06:01.550 and being assertive and direct is 94 00:06:01.949 --> 00:06:05.789 masculine, and I don't agree with that. Like, people can be any 95 00:06:05.789 --> 00:06:09.470 sort of things and it doesn't have to be directly related to their 96 00:06:09.470 --> 00:06:13.315 gender. No. III get it. I understand it. In fact, I'd 97 00:06:13.395 --> 00:06:16.775 I actually, what I I don't understand because 98 00:06:17.555 --> 00:06:21.160 it's not me. And I often say this to people that I don't have to 99 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.920 understand you. I just have to listen to you and 100 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:28.685 understand that you know who you are, and that's all that matters. I 101 00:06:28.685 --> 00:06:32.125 don't have to understand what being gender nonconforming is, what being 102 00:06:32.125 --> 00:06:35.724 nonbinary means, what being agender I don't need to understand. I just need to understand 103 00:06:35.724 --> 00:06:39.530 that you understand what it means to you. So I I haven't got to go 104 00:06:39.530 --> 00:06:43.370 any deeper than that. I just go, great. Fine. Fantastic. Happy to 105 00:06:43.370 --> 00:06:47.095 meet you. Because a lot of people really want to try and they wanna try 106 00:06:47.095 --> 00:06:50.795 and get it, don't they? They wanna try and analyze it. It's it's 107 00:06:51.015 --> 00:06:54.570 not something you can analyze really, is it? And and it's just trusting 108 00:06:54.570 --> 00:06:58.170 people's experience. Right? I think you you said it correctly. When 109 00:06:58.170 --> 00:07:01.530 someone why would you wanna deny me my 110 00:07:01.530 --> 00:07:05.105 identity? Right? Like this is how I see the world and how I see myself 111 00:07:05.105 --> 00:07:08.865 in this world. Jo when we meet someone and they tell us they 112 00:07:08.865 --> 00:07:12.325 are agender, for example, which particularly means 113 00:07:13.410 --> 00:07:17.090 they don't believe in gender at all, not as any sort of 114 00:07:17.090 --> 00:07:20.770 construction or anything. And that's their experience, and 115 00:07:20.770 --> 00:07:24.565 they wanna use their name as their pronouns, or they don't wanna 116 00:07:24.565 --> 00:07:27.685 be referred as 1 or the other, or maybe they don't care how they are 117 00:07:27.685 --> 00:07:31.330 referred as because it's a personal experience. We have no right on saying, 118 00:07:31.330 --> 00:07:35.090 nope. Sorry. You're wrong. You have to choose either belong on this box 119 00:07:35.090 --> 00:07:38.785 or that box or maybe these other 2 that we kind of made up. 120 00:07:39.025 --> 00:07:42.465 But you have to choose 1, and it's like, well, no. I don't 121 00:07:42.465 --> 00:07:46.225 necessarily wanna choose. And as you said, it's about respecting people, trusting them, 122 00:07:46.225 --> 00:07:50.030 trusting them what they telling tell you and believing them. So 123 00:07:50.030 --> 00:07:53.550 if we wanna bring them back to the gender equity in the 124 00:07:53.550 --> 00:07:57.175 future, I think it's just about this. Right? Realizing that people 125 00:07:57.175 --> 00:08:00.875 have different perspective, different identities, different experiences 126 00:08:01.015 --> 00:08:04.155 of life, and this is what enriches them, and it's gonna 127 00:08:04.455 --> 00:08:07.810 bring in a lot of inform like, good 128 00:08:07.810 --> 00:08:11.490 information or good ideas and good ways of thinking, different ways of 129 00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:15.225 thinking to the workplace. And this will end 130 00:08:15.225 --> 00:08:19.065 up being better for the workplace because we already know by now that 131 00:08:19.065 --> 00:08:22.525 diverse identities in the workplace bring 132 00:08:23.530 --> 00:08:26.830 they increase profit, they retain talent, they 133 00:08:28.490 --> 00:08:31.790 increase productivity. So we already know the benefits. 134 00:08:31.850 --> 00:08:35.615 Right? It's about just allowing ourselves to really 135 00:08:36.155 --> 00:08:39.889 include everyone and not just like, oh, because when 136 00:08:39.889 --> 00:08:43.569 men lead men lead, they lead this way. Or when 137 00:08:43.569 --> 00:08:47.170 women lead, they lead this way. It's like, okay. No. Everyone 138 00:08:47.170 --> 00:08:51.015 has their own experience and they're gonna lead the 139 00:08:51.015 --> 00:08:54.775 best way they Joanne, so let's just encourage them to have 140 00:08:54.775 --> 00:08:58.540 that journey. It doesn't have to be related because you're a woman, then your 141 00:08:58.540 --> 00:09:02.079 characteristics to lead are sensitive, 142 00:09:02.540 --> 00:09:05.875 compassionate, soft. Right? Why? 143 00:09:06.015 --> 00:09:08.195 Right? Any woman can lean anywhere 144 00:09:09.935 --> 00:09:13.695 and it's just the way they truly feel it. Right? So I think by 145 00:09:13.695 --> 00:09:17.209 expanding our vision of gender to that of 146 00:09:17.350 --> 00:09:21.190 a spectrum and not just a or b or male or 147 00:09:21.190 --> 00:09:24.855 female, We just allow more diverse perspective than 148 00:09:24.855 --> 00:09:28.395 lived experiences for people to choose from and just bring 149 00:09:29.095 --> 00:09:32.920 more ideas and everything, like all the true 150 00:09:32.920 --> 00:09:36.680 selves to work so that they can actually thrive. Do you find it, 151 00:09:37.160 --> 00:09:40.565 when you're working with organizations, companies, and they're talking about gender 152 00:09:40.565 --> 00:09:43.704 equity, a lot of it is focused around 153 00:09:44.165 --> 00:09:47.764 female empowerment. Do you feel lost in that in that language then? 154 00:09:47.764 --> 00:09:51.540 Because no 1 is is trying to separate gender 155 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.445 beyond the binary, and that's the that's the challenge, isn't it? Yes. It is, and 156 00:09:56.445 --> 00:09:59.325 I think it's a big challenge. So I think the improvement that has been done 157 00:09:59.325 --> 00:10:01.904 on women empowerment is amazing for sure. 158 00:10:02.845 --> 00:10:06.570 I am glad it's happening. And I 159 00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:10.170 think if we just keep focusing on that, which is what's happening in a lot 160 00:10:10.170 --> 00:10:13.565 of places, it's the data they're collecting, it's the when you talk 161 00:10:13.565 --> 00:10:16.945 about pay equity, you see the results 162 00:10:17.084 --> 00:10:20.930 against women versus men. There's still no even data on 163 00:10:21.010 --> 00:10:24.770 gender nonconforming or non binary or other genders out there. 164 00:10:24.770 --> 00:10:28.610 Right? So like with everything, when we focus on just 165 00:10:28.610 --> 00:10:32.445 1, we're leaving the other ones behind. If we are able to both 166 00:10:32.445 --> 00:10:35.805 broaden our perspectives and empower all 167 00:10:35.805 --> 00:10:39.120 gender minorities or all of them, 168 00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:43.260 women are gonna benefit. It's not that because we bring the other ones up, 169 00:10:43.260 --> 00:10:47.020 then suddenly women start losing all all what they thought. Right? Like, it's 170 00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:50.894 that's just impossible. They're gonna keep getting more 171 00:10:50.894 --> 00:10:54.574 empowered, more opportunities, equal pay, and everything, which 172 00:10:54.574 --> 00:10:58.320 my question because this is what happens when you see 173 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:01.840 the work that companies are doing, the work that many international 174 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:05.820 organizations are doing focuses on women empowerment is super valuable. 175 00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:09.605 Like, don't get me wrong. I really appreciate that this work is happening. 176 00:11:09.825 --> 00:11:12.645 But then what's gonna happen in 2020 177 00:11:14.145 --> 00:11:17.860 or 50 years from here, we're gonna turn around and 178 00:11:17.860 --> 00:11:21.459 look like, oh, there's a big disparity between men, women, and the 179 00:11:21.459 --> 00:11:25.225 rest of the population. Right? And it's like, 180 00:11:25.445 --> 00:11:29.285 again, big mistake. Right? We should 181 00:11:29.285 --> 00:11:32.720 be pulling putting everyone up trying to get to that 182 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:36.620 equity for everyone, and that's where I see the 183 00:11:36.620 --> 00:11:40.175 issue that it's not that conversation is still not happening. How do we change 184 00:11:41.115 --> 00:11:44.415 the language that we use to be inclusive 185 00:11:44.955 --> 00:11:48.415 of your own identity whilst also recognising 186 00:11:49.580 --> 00:11:53.100 the work that's going on around the female empowerment, female 187 00:11:53.100 --> 00:11:56.620 mentoring schemes that exclude you by the very title of that 188 00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:00.445 name? How how does an organization include you and your 189 00:12:00.445 --> 00:12:04.285 identity in their programs? Because when someone 190 00:12:04.285 --> 00:12:07.584 is the sex assigned at birth female, assigned gender at birth female, 191 00:12:08.389 --> 00:12:12.149 there's still some legacy challenges that people 192 00:12:12.149 --> 00:12:15.129 will face because of their assignment at birth 193 00:12:15.875 --> 00:12:19.175 that they don't escape later in life by either transitioning 194 00:12:19.395 --> 00:12:23.015 or becoming gender agnostic or or or gender nonconforming. 195 00:12:23.235 --> 00:12:26.700 So you you still have some legacy traits that 196 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:30.399 you you need empowerment with. So how do we make the language inclusive 197 00:12:30.995 --> 00:12:34.835 to recognize what you need as well? It's a good question. And I think 198 00:12:34.835 --> 00:12:38.515 it it's also a tricky 1 because I'm not sure if if 199 00:12:38.515 --> 00:12:42.250 it's just about the language. Right? So 1 of the things that I I know 200 00:12:42.250 --> 00:12:45.710 that happens in a lot of corporate or that started to happen 201 00:12:45.930 --> 00:12:49.370 is that the the the ERGs, the women 202 00:12:49.370 --> 00:12:53.195 ERD was suddenly kind of they they put all the other genders in 203 00:12:53.195 --> 00:12:55.834 there, but it was kind of like, oh, we don't know what to do with 204 00:12:55.834 --> 00:12:59.680 you, so let's just tie them up here. Right? And maybe that was 205 00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:03.199 not the strategic thing to do or if you're gonna do it, maybe it was, 206 00:13:03.199 --> 00:13:06.945 but do it consciously. Right? And, again, bearing in mind that 207 00:13:07.345 --> 00:13:10.865 there are things in which they can support each other 208 00:13:10.865 --> 00:13:14.545 and, like, fight together or not fight, but, like, 209 00:13:14.545 --> 00:13:17.639 work to promote better together 210 00:13:18.100 --> 00:13:21.939 whether they're and there are also things that, okay, these are very specific to 211 00:13:21.939 --> 00:13:25.654 women and these are very specific to gender nonconforming people 212 00:13:25.654 --> 00:13:29.095 or non binary people. Right? So they can they can 213 00:13:29.095 --> 00:13:32.790 work in some things together or not. But therefore, to the 214 00:13:32.790 --> 00:13:35.510 point of the language, I don't know if it's about we just need to call 215 00:13:35.510 --> 00:13:39.305 them more gender minorities or because then we have the 216 00:13:39.305 --> 00:13:42.824 women who are like, okay, but we've been fighting this for so much. So look, 217 00:13:42.824 --> 00:13:46.445 I was born female and I identified female 218 00:13:46.505 --> 00:13:50.070 for a very long time because I didn't know better until I always 219 00:13:50.070 --> 00:13:53.430 felt like, oh, this is not where I feel, but I didn't know I had 220 00:13:53.430 --> 00:13:56.915 a choice. Right? So so I 221 00:13:56.915 --> 00:14:00.595 understand I've been there. Like you said, yes, there are some struggles just by the 222 00:14:00.595 --> 00:14:04.120 fact of who we are born as female when 223 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:07.880 we we and if we continue to identify as that. And if 224 00:14:07.880 --> 00:14:11.720 not, it's not like suddenly, oh, those things that used to happen just 225 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.435 moved over and I don't experience them anymore. Right? Then, they 226 00:14:15.595 --> 00:14:19.194 they've never disappeared. And I think if we get 227 00:14:19.194 --> 00:14:23.035 too too concerned on the language, then we start to lose lose 228 00:14:23.035 --> 00:14:26.860 focus of the real world of the real work that we have to do. 229 00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:30.620 Right? So I I don't think everyone will ever agree because 230 00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:33.824 if we all call it gender we start to talk about gender minorities, 231 00:14:34.524 --> 00:14:37.884 let's say, there's probably gonna be a lot of women who are not happy about 232 00:14:37.884 --> 00:14:41.680 that and about all the work they've done and they which we know already happens. 233 00:14:41.899 --> 00:14:45.660 Right? We know that there's no discussions already happening, and 234 00:14:45.660 --> 00:14:48.575 we don't want that. Like, the idea is not, hey. I'm not here to fight 235 00:14:48.575 --> 00:14:52.415 you. I really appreciate all the advancement and things that have happened for 236 00:14:52.415 --> 00:14:55.795 women because we needed them, and it's it's 237 00:14:56.190 --> 00:14:59.790 incredible that they haven't happened before and with 2024, and we still 238 00:14:59.790 --> 00:15:03.630 see that the pay gap and we still see not 239 00:15:03.630 --> 00:15:06.965 as many women in the in the leadership 240 00:15:07.025 --> 00:15:10.705 roles, like, so all good with that. And let's don't forget 241 00:15:10.705 --> 00:15:14.540 about the rest. Let's just see how we can bring them together 242 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.160 with our action. Like, we are we are all want each other 243 00:15:19.160 --> 00:15:22.985 to thrive. Right? So if we start making more wires within the gender 244 00:15:22.985 --> 00:15:26.745 world, I think we end up nowhere. Not sure if that answered the question. No. 245 00:15:26.745 --> 00:15:30.290 It's it's it's no. It does. It does. I I was talking to 246 00:15:30.830 --> 00:15:34.450 a Joanne masculine friend of mine the other day and he was saying 247 00:15:35.070 --> 00:15:38.774 I've always noticed an acquisition of privilege 248 00:15:39.555 --> 00:15:43.015 losing people would no longer perceive him or read him 249 00:15:43.235 --> 00:15:46.780 as female. And now he he's recognized that he's 250 00:15:46.780 --> 00:15:50.160 gained privilege around a voice in a meeting, 251 00:15:50.380 --> 00:15:54.145 being listened to, being heard, feeling safer on the 252 00:15:54.145 --> 00:15:57.905 streets, being treated in a kind of that bro 253 00:15:57.905 --> 00:16:01.560 culture that sort of be called mate and including the 254 00:16:01.560 --> 00:16:05.259 male grouping. In fact, so much so that he he he recognized 255 00:16:05.319 --> 00:16:09.085 that women now perceive him as a potential threat. 256 00:16:09.325 --> 00:16:13.005 So he he has it really acknowledged the difference 257 00:16:13.005 --> 00:16:16.465 of of how men and women are perceived in society. 258 00:16:16.870 --> 00:16:20.709 Have you have you seen something similar from your lens, if you like, from outside 259 00:16:20.709 --> 00:16:24.490 of the gender? Bullshit, if you like. Yes. 260 00:16:24.630 --> 00:16:28.285 I have to say and and and it's sad 261 00:16:28.665 --> 00:16:31.404 because it's realizations I've had recently 262 00:16:32.345 --> 00:16:35.980 that that okay. As a as a perceived 263 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:40.040 white I am from Colombia. I don't see myself as white, but 264 00:16:40.040 --> 00:16:43.500 I understand I am perceived as white and I I 265 00:16:44.185 --> 00:16:47.945 lived as a cisgender woman for many years. I 266 00:16:47.945 --> 00:16:51.785 still had some more privileges that I completely lost 267 00:16:51.785 --> 00:16:55.480 when I came out as gender non conforming. And some 268 00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:58.520 were very easy to notice just the fact that, for example, 269 00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:03.055 people don't see me as gender non conforming. They have what they have in their 270 00:17:03.055 --> 00:17:06.815 mind and having people completely ignore when I say, yes. I'm 271 00:17:06.815 --> 00:17:10.655 gender nonconforming. My pronouns are they, them, and they keep she, she, 272 00:17:10.655 --> 00:17:14.409 she, and it's like, no. I'm not she. Like, can you 273 00:17:15.030 --> 00:17:18.869 respect me? Oh, but they is plural. And I'm like, yeah. No. They 274 00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:22.715 is not plural, you know. Like, and all these things, 275 00:17:22.715 --> 00:17:26.555 oh, but you make it so hard. And he's like, take a deep breath. It's 276 00:17:26.555 --> 00:17:30.075 not about you. You know? It's about me, but I'm so sorry I made it 277 00:17:30.075 --> 00:17:33.880 hard for you. Jo definitely and 278 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:37.640 lately, some of those privileges that I've 279 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.145 noticed So I have my my CV, my 280 00:17:41.145 --> 00:17:44.205 resume, and I include my pronouns in my resume. 281 00:17:44.664 --> 00:17:48.500 And I've applied for a couple of roles, and I haven't gotten 282 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.340 any responses. And I've read articles about that. It has been proven 283 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.184 how people who include their pronouns and it's they, them 284 00:17:56.184 --> 00:18:00.025 pronouns on their resumes don't get as many 285 00:18:00.025 --> 00:18:03.799 callbacks, and I'm leaving it. And I'm like, seriously? Like, this 286 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.580 is reality. This is the world we live in. It makes me wonder, 287 00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:11.904 like, that's why, for example, doing 288 00:18:11.904 --> 00:18:15.664 stuff out in the world, putting out information, getting new clients, it 289 00:18:15.664 --> 00:18:19.205 just makes everything harder because people are like, yeah. This, I don't understand, 290 00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:23.070 so I don't relate. So just go to what I know and I feel safe 291 00:18:23.070 --> 00:18:26.910 with. Right? This person challenges might 292 00:18:26.910 --> 00:18:30.535 not, like, my conceived way of seeing the world. Like, 293 00:18:30.835 --> 00:18:34.355 thank you, but I rather go back to what I know and I feel 294 00:18:34.355 --> 00:18:38.179 safe. So yes. Definitely. I do think that definitely happens. Yeah. No. 295 00:18:38.179 --> 00:18:42.020 I I hear what you're saying about the, it's too difficult for people. 296 00:18:42.020 --> 00:18:45.745 They it's like, oh, come on. It's like, can you make it easy for 297 00:18:45.745 --> 00:18:48.625 me? It's like, well, hang on a minute. It's it's not for me to make 298 00:18:48.625 --> 00:18:52.365 it and it does challenge people because people are so ingrained 299 00:18:52.505 --> 00:18:56.230 into their their way of speaking, their way of thinking. It's 300 00:18:56.230 --> 00:18:59.830 sometimes hard to nudge people into a into a different orbit to think think 301 00:18:59.830 --> 00:19:03.645 differently because it's it is. It's it's too much effort. And, 302 00:19:03.885 --> 00:19:07.485 yeah. I think it it it it 303 00:19:07.485 --> 00:19:11.320 frustrates me that we're in 2024. We've been talking 304 00:19:11.320 --> 00:19:14.860 about this for generations and centuries, 305 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.875 and yet we're still ingrained. And people wanna put you back in the box, 306 00:19:18.875 --> 00:19:22.554 don't they? They wanna they wanna make their assumption, and they want to tell 307 00:19:22.554 --> 00:19:26.255 you that they're right and and not listen to you, and then 308 00:19:27.250 --> 00:19:31.010 treat you differently because you use those pronouns. And 309 00:19:31.010 --> 00:19:34.770 I've actually heard recruiters. I go to a lot of recruitment conferences, 310 00:19:34.770 --> 00:19:38.034 and I speak to a lot of recruiters. And there's lots of anecdotes and stories 311 00:19:38.034 --> 00:19:41.715 out there how some hiring managers, some recruiters will see pronouns on 312 00:19:41.715 --> 00:19:45.410 your LinkedIn profile. And I've actually had people say, well, if I see pronouns 313 00:19:45.410 --> 00:19:49.250 on someone's LinkedIn profile, their CV goes straight in the bin. And it's and it's 314 00:19:49.250 --> 00:19:52.390 not just about they, them. It's any pronouns on a profile. 315 00:19:53.095 --> 00:19:56.855 It's far too woke for them to to Joanne, so they just, I don't 316 00:19:56.855 --> 00:20:00.690 want that person in my organization. And throw it out the window. And 317 00:20:00.830 --> 00:20:04.590 that's the new you know, we saw that with racist type 318 00:20:04.590 --> 00:20:07.630 remarks where people were looking at your photograph and saying, well, that that's not a 319 00:20:07.630 --> 00:20:11.195 white person or that's not a woman or that's not a man or 320 00:20:11.195 --> 00:20:14.875 something, and then rejecting you from your photograph. Now they're rejecting you for your pronoun. 321 00:20:14.875 --> 00:20:18.690 Yeah. No. It's quite sad that it's, as you said, 2024 and these things 322 00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:22.529 are happening. And I guess that's why we we are here and 323 00:20:22.529 --> 00:20:26.355 that's why we continue to do the work. Like, it's it's it's not 324 00:20:26.355 --> 00:20:30.195 that hard. Right? And when you actually see people getting it and then they are 325 00:20:30.195 --> 00:20:33.555 able to get past their own head and limitation and 326 00:20:33.555 --> 00:20:37.360 suddenly understand, like, hey, but that is not about 327 00:20:37.360 --> 00:20:41.200 me. It's actually about this person. So it's okay. I can call them 328 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.865 whatever they want. Right? Or I can just respect them 329 00:20:45.184 --> 00:20:48.945 and it's fine. They are respectful with me. And then you see a 330 00:20:48.945 --> 00:20:52.005 change. Jo, again, if I think in the workplace, 331 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.480 we're missing that conversation still. You know? There's not not that 332 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.260 many places yet, especially, I would say, 333 00:21:01.905 --> 00:21:05.365 more typically male driven industries 334 00:21:06.385 --> 00:21:09.730 that like oil, I don't know, cars, automobile, 335 00:21:10.030 --> 00:21:12.690 things like that that have been usually more, 336 00:21:13.710 --> 00:21:17.390 or have been running for a long time and everything, they it's still too 337 00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:21.235 narrow minded. And they're struggling to get women parity 338 00:21:21.695 --> 00:21:25.455 there, but they're forgetting about the rest of us. And 1 day, 339 00:21:25.455 --> 00:21:29.299 they're gonna just turn around and see, like, oh, oops. Again, we have to go 340 00:21:29.299 --> 00:21:32.900 back to 0 with this gender equity. So the idea would be to start having 341 00:21:32.900 --> 00:21:36.740 those conversations now. At least gathering the data. Right? At 342 00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:40.445 least at a minimum, like, okay. This is the data. These are the 343 00:21:40.445 --> 00:21:44.125 pay differences. This is the amount of people we have in the workplace. These 344 00:21:44.125 --> 00:21:47.580 are not, you know. So at least from there, 345 00:21:47.580 --> 00:21:51.280 especially because the generations that are coming are more gender diverse, 346 00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:55.365 you know. There's more queer people, queer engender, queer in 347 00:21:55.365 --> 00:21:59.125 in their sexuality. So it's just like they have to catch 348 00:21:59.125 --> 00:22:02.669 up. Organizations will need to catch up before it's too late. Do you find 349 00:22:02.669 --> 00:22:06.049 sometimes that you have to put yourself back in the box 350 00:22:06.429 --> 00:22:09.809 for situations where you're travelling, you're doing something, 351 00:22:10.429 --> 00:22:14.145 and it's just it's just too difficult to to push on 352 00:22:14.365 --> 00:22:18.125 with who you are and you end up conforming to someone else's 353 00:22:18.125 --> 00:22:21.710 rule set because you kinda have to. Do you find that 354 00:22:21.710 --> 00:22:25.390 often? Yes. And it's sad and and it's 355 00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:29.125 hard. And I I last year, we were traveling 356 00:22:29.125 --> 00:22:32.725 in Southeast Asia and for the whole year with 357 00:22:32.725 --> 00:22:36.559 my with my wife, and we met a 358 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.399 lot of people. And, definitely, there were places in in which we 359 00:22:40.399 --> 00:22:44.165 were hanging out with westerners. Right? People 360 00:22:44.165 --> 00:22:47.684 who were supposedly educated, digital nomads, all these 361 00:22:47.684 --> 00:22:51.045 things. No clue or understanding or even the 362 00:22:51.045 --> 00:22:54.550 desire to understand what their gender nonconforming 363 00:22:54.770 --> 00:22:58.210 was or is and that they could use they, them, 364 00:22:58.210 --> 00:23:02.054 pronouns. And it was like, okay. But if this is like, oh, she has 365 00:23:02.054 --> 00:23:05.835 she and she and she I'm like, I'm not she, they. Completely 366 00:23:05.975 --> 00:23:09.289 oblivious and I don't wanna change and I don't wanna make an effort and whatever. 367 00:23:09.289 --> 00:23:12.970 And there there was a moment, there were places in which we weren't staying 368 00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:16.570 for long. So there was a moment in which I you know what? This 369 00:23:16.570 --> 00:23:20.235 fighting is not even worth it. It's not worth it. I was very lucky that 370 00:23:20.235 --> 00:23:24.014 I have my wife and she was doing the fighting most of the time. 371 00:23:24.235 --> 00:23:27.970 She was like, they go by them. They go by they them and 372 00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:31.909 explaining the differences, and she's an amazing 373 00:23:32.530 --> 00:23:35.890 person in the way she explains it and has all the patience and all the 374 00:23:35.890 --> 00:23:39.545 love and does it. And at some point, she came to me and she told 375 00:23:39.545 --> 00:23:43.385 me I cannot do it anymore. And I was like, well, believe me. That 376 00:23:43.385 --> 00:23:46.540 happened to me too. You don't have to. You know, do it when you feel 377 00:23:46.540 --> 00:23:50.320 like it and when you feel resourced. But it's a fight 378 00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:53.680 that we cannot keep going. And back in the US, 379 00:23:54.005 --> 00:23:57.705 where you would think, like again, many of us think, oh, we're 380 00:23:59.605 --> 00:24:03.205 however you you wanna call it in a developed country or something. And, 381 00:24:03.205 --> 00:24:06.940 again, very many circumstances, I find myself 382 00:24:07.560 --> 00:24:11.400 quickly just deciding, you know what? I'm not gonna give it this fight 383 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:15.135 and I try especially if it's short, quick Joanne fast conversations, I try to 384 00:24:15.135 --> 00:24:18.975 just yeah. Whatever. I'm not gonna fight you. But it's the 385 00:24:18.975 --> 00:24:22.770 the the importance of, like, inclusive language, companies, restaurants. I go 386 00:24:22.770 --> 00:24:26.450 to a restaurant with my wife and everyone's ladies, and it's like they should 387 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:30.205 train their their people to say good morning, good afternoon, good 388 00:24:30.205 --> 00:24:33.905 evening, everyone. You know? Like, there's so many ways to call people without 389 00:24:34.205 --> 00:24:37.965 gendering them, and we should be doing much better 390 00:24:37.965 --> 00:24:41.440 on that and still not happening. Jo, yes, that 391 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.210 happens a lot. Many situations and and what I do what I do is I 392 00:24:45.885 --> 00:24:49.645 how much energy I have and how long the to to give 393 00:24:49.645 --> 00:24:53.325 the the explanation, to try the other person to 394 00:24:53.325 --> 00:24:57.100 understand, make them understand how long is the interaction 395 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.840 going to be, and if it's going to be more meaningful and it has a 396 00:25:00.840 --> 00:25:04.520 possibility of a relationship, a friendship, or something, then it's like, 397 00:25:04.520 --> 00:25:08.195 okay. I'm gonna take my time and I'll try it for x amount. If 398 00:25:08.195 --> 00:25:10.995 at certain point, they just don't get it. He's like, thank you, but I don't 399 00:25:10.995 --> 00:25:14.590 wanna be your friend. Right? Continue this relation. And where 400 00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:18.270 they're very short interactions, it's like, okay. Whatever. Just assume the 401 00:25:18.270 --> 00:25:21.770