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Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 128 with
Joanne Lockwood: the title, the future of gender equity.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Valentina
Joanne Lockwood: Jaramillo. Valentina is an empowerment
Joanne Lockwood: catalyst and an inclusion advocate, a
Joanne Lockwood: communications expert, and dedicated diversity,
Joanne Lockwood: equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner The
Joanne Lockwood: passion for creating safe spaces where everyone
Joanne Lockwood: can bring their true selves and develop their full return. When I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Valentina to describe their inspirational superpower, they said
Joanne Lockwood: that their superpower is their honesty and using it
Joanne Lockwood: to share their lived experience without judging. They would also
Joanne Lockwood: say they are a good listener, creating a safe space
Joanne Lockwood: for people to talk to them. Hello, Valentina. Welcome to the show.
Valentina Jaramillo: Hi, Jo. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: I am as well. It's great to chat to you in the green room and
Joanne Lockwood: find out that, I'd also been to several of the places you've lived
Joanne Lockwood: in in the US. So, yes, quite fascinating. So, Valentina, the future
Joanne Lockwood: gender equity, tell me more about that. Yes. The future
Valentina Jaramillo: of gender equity definitely goes beyond
Valentina Jaramillo: the binary and that means that it's not about
Valentina Jaramillo: just empowering women but actually having all
Valentina Jaramillo: genders represented. So I think the future of
Valentina Jaramillo: gender equity is that when we hear those 2
Valentina Jaramillo: words, gender equity, we don't necessarily hear
Valentina Jaramillo: women and men, but we understand that
Valentina Jaramillo: gender goes more than that binary, that there
Valentina Jaramillo: are gender nonconforming, gender nonbinary, agender,
Valentina Jaramillo: that there is different expressions
Valentina Jaramillo: and identity of gender. So that's what we
Valentina Jaramillo: wanna do. Use all these lived experiences and
Valentina Jaramillo: empower them to have diverse perspectives
Valentina Jaramillo: and be the workplace be a place where everybody can thrive. So
Valentina Jaramillo: I think this is where the the gen the future of gender equity Brilliant.
Joanne Lockwood: Some of my listeners probably are unsure
Joanne Lockwood: around gender diversity when it comes to
Joanne Lockwood: non binary identities or agender because
Joanne Lockwood: agender and non binary is often an umbrella term. It encompasses a whole load
Joanne Lockwood: of different identities as well, doesn't it? So could you explain a little bit
Joanne Lockwood: more about what it means to you maybe? Yes. Totally. I will
Valentina Jaramillo: first go a little 1 step back and needs to explain that
Valentina Jaramillo: gender identity, gender expression, and sex
Valentina Jaramillo: assigned at birth are 3 different things. So gender
Valentina Jaramillo: identity is the way we see ourselves. Gender expression
Valentina Jaramillo: is the way we show up to the world, the way and this includes the
Valentina Jaramillo: way we dress, the way we talk, and many different things.
Valentina Jaramillo: And, sex assigned at birth is the sex that when we were
Valentina Jaramillo: born and they saw our genitals, the doctor said
Valentina Jaramillo: this is a boy or this is a girl and this is what
Valentina Jaramillo: commonly we see as gender, but it is not, so it is
Valentina Jaramillo: different. And then when we talk about gender diverse people are
Valentina Jaramillo: people who don't necessarily subscribe or what it means to me, right, to
Valentina Jaramillo: necessarily subscribe to this sex assigned at
Valentina Jaramillo: birth as the only information
Valentina Jaramillo: regarding gender identity. Right?
Valentina Jaramillo: So non binary, yes. And they also fall,
Valentina Jaramillo: from my understanding, right, or the way I see it, under the transgender
Valentina Jaramillo: umbrella, which is basically not identifying with the gender
Valentina Jaramillo: you were assigned at birth. And between in
Valentina Jaramillo: in the transgender umbrella, we
Valentina Jaramillo: have people who transition or people who don't necessarily
Valentina Jaramillo: transition whether clinically or or, just
Valentina Jaramillo: socially. Right? And then there's people who definitely do not conform
Valentina Jaramillo: to any of those, known,
Valentina Jaramillo: let's say, categories. Right? Jo myself,
Valentina Jaramillo: I identify as gender nonconforming. When there's
Valentina Jaramillo: a form and their only option is non binary, I will probably choose
Valentina Jaramillo: non binary. However, the words nonconforming
Valentina Jaramillo: resonate more just because I don't wanna conform to any of those norms.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? Any of those, like, societal norms that have been
Valentina Jaramillo: described. Oh, you are a woman, so you have to be this, or you are
Valentina Jaramillo: a man, so you have to be that. Whether it's the way you
Valentina Jaramillo: look or even it has been taken even to characteristics.
Valentina Jaramillo: So they usually, being more compassionate
Valentina Jaramillo: or more sensible sensitive is feminine
Valentina Jaramillo: and being assertive and direct is
Valentina Jaramillo: masculine, and I don't agree with that. Like, people can be any
Valentina Jaramillo: sort of things and it doesn't have to be directly related to their
Valentina Jaramillo: gender. No. III get it. I understand it. In fact, I'd
Joanne Lockwood: I actually, what I I don't understand because
Joanne Lockwood: it's not me. And I often say this to people that I don't have to
Joanne Lockwood: understand you. I just have to listen to you and
Joanne Lockwood: understand that you know who you are, and that's all that matters. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't have to understand what being gender nonconforming is, what being
Joanne Lockwood: nonbinary means, what being agender I don't need to understand. I just need to understand
Joanne Lockwood: that you understand what it means to you. So I I haven't got to go
Joanne Lockwood: any deeper than that. I just go, great. Fine. Fantastic. Happy to
Joanne Lockwood: meet you. Because a lot of people really want to try and they wanna try
Joanne Lockwood: and get it, don't they? They wanna try and analyze it. It's it's
Joanne Lockwood: not something you can analyze really, is it? And and it's just trusting
Valentina Jaramillo: people's experience. Right? I think you you said it correctly. When
Valentina Jaramillo: someone why would you wanna deny me my
Valentina Jaramillo: identity? Right? Like this is how I see the world and how I see myself
Valentina Jaramillo: in this world. Jo when we meet someone and they tell us they
Valentina Jaramillo: are agender, for example, which particularly means
Valentina Jaramillo: they don't believe in gender at all, not as any sort of
Valentina Jaramillo: construction or anything. And that's their experience, and
Valentina Jaramillo: they wanna use their name as their pronouns, or they don't wanna
Valentina Jaramillo: be referred as 1 or the other, or maybe they don't care how they are
Valentina Jaramillo: referred as because it's a personal experience. We have no right on saying,
Valentina Jaramillo: nope. Sorry. You're wrong. You have to choose either belong on this box
Valentina Jaramillo: or that box or maybe these other 2 that we kind of made up.
Valentina Jaramillo: But you have to choose 1, and it's like, well, no. I don't
Valentina Jaramillo: necessarily wanna choose. And as you said, it's about respecting people, trusting them,
Valentina Jaramillo: trusting them what they telling tell you and believing them. So
Valentina Jaramillo: if we wanna bring them back to the gender equity in the
Valentina Jaramillo: future, I think it's just about this. Right? Realizing that people
Valentina Jaramillo: have different perspective, different identities, different experiences
Valentina Jaramillo: of life, and this is what enriches them, and it's gonna
Valentina Jaramillo: bring in a lot of inform like, good
Valentina Jaramillo: information or good ideas and good ways of thinking, different ways of
Valentina Jaramillo: thinking to the workplace. And this will end
Valentina Jaramillo: up being better for the workplace because we already know by now that
Valentina Jaramillo: diverse identities in the workplace bring
Valentina Jaramillo: they increase profit, they retain talent, they
Valentina Jaramillo: increase productivity. So we already know the benefits.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? It's about just allowing ourselves to really
Valentina Jaramillo: include everyone and not just like, oh, because when
Valentina Jaramillo: men lead men lead, they lead this way. Or when
Valentina Jaramillo: women lead, they lead this way. It's like, okay. No. Everyone
Valentina Jaramillo: has their own experience and they're gonna lead the
Valentina Jaramillo: best way they Joanne, so let's just encourage them to have
Valentina Jaramillo: that journey. It doesn't have to be related because you're a woman, then your
Valentina Jaramillo: characteristics to lead are sensitive,
Valentina Jaramillo: compassionate, soft. Right? Why?
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? Any woman can lean anywhere
Valentina Jaramillo: and it's just the way they truly feel it. Right? So I think by
Valentina Jaramillo: expanding our vision of gender to that of
Valentina Jaramillo: a spectrum and not just a or b or male or
Valentina Jaramillo: female, We just allow more diverse perspective than
Valentina Jaramillo: lived experiences for people to choose from and just bring
Valentina Jaramillo: more ideas and everything, like all the true
Valentina Jaramillo: selves to work so that they can actually thrive. Do you find it,
Joanne Lockwood: when you're working with organizations, companies, and they're talking about gender
Joanne Lockwood: equity, a lot of it is focused around
Joanne Lockwood: female empowerment. Do you feel lost in that in that language then?
Joanne Lockwood: Because no 1 is is trying to separate gender
Joanne Lockwood: beyond the binary, and that's the that's the challenge, isn't it? Yes. It is, and
Valentina Jaramillo: I think it's a big challenge. So I think the improvement that has been done
Valentina Jaramillo: on women empowerment is amazing for sure.
Valentina Jaramillo: I am glad it's happening. And I
Valentina Jaramillo: think if we just keep focusing on that, which is what's happening in a lot
Valentina Jaramillo: of places, it's the data they're collecting, it's the when you talk
Valentina Jaramillo: about pay equity, you see the results
Valentina Jaramillo: against women versus men. There's still no even data on
Valentina Jaramillo: gender nonconforming or non binary or other genders out there.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? So like with everything, when we focus on just
Valentina Jaramillo: 1, we're leaving the other ones behind. If we are able to both
Valentina Jaramillo: broaden our perspectives and empower all
Valentina Jaramillo: gender minorities or all of them,
Valentina Jaramillo: women are gonna benefit. It's not that because we bring the other ones up,
Valentina Jaramillo: then suddenly women start losing all all what they thought. Right? Like, it's
Valentina Jaramillo: that's just impossible. They're gonna keep getting more
Valentina Jaramillo: empowered, more opportunities, equal pay, and everything, which
Valentina Jaramillo: my question because this is what happens when you see
Valentina Jaramillo: the work that companies are doing, the work that many international
Valentina Jaramillo: organizations are doing focuses on women empowerment is super valuable.
Valentina Jaramillo: Like, don't get me wrong. I really appreciate that this work is happening.
Valentina Jaramillo: But then what's gonna happen in 2020
Valentina Jaramillo: or 50 years from here, we're gonna turn around and
Valentina Jaramillo: look like, oh, there's a big disparity between men, women, and the
Valentina Jaramillo: rest of the population. Right? And it's like,
Valentina Jaramillo: again, big mistake. Right? We should
Valentina Jaramillo: be pulling putting everyone up trying to get to that
Valentina Jaramillo: equity for everyone, and that's where I see the
Valentina Jaramillo: issue that it's not that conversation is still not happening. How do we change
Joanne Lockwood: the language that we use to be inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: of your own identity whilst also recognising
Joanne Lockwood: the work that's going on around the female empowerment, female
Joanne Lockwood: mentoring schemes that exclude you by the very title of that
Joanne Lockwood: name? How how does an organization include you and your
Joanne Lockwood: identity in their programs? Because when someone
Joanne Lockwood: is the sex assigned at birth female, assigned gender at birth female,
Joanne Lockwood: there's still some legacy challenges that people
Joanne Lockwood: will face because of their assignment at birth
Joanne Lockwood: that they don't escape later in life by either transitioning
Joanne Lockwood: or becoming gender agnostic or or or gender nonconforming.
Joanne Lockwood: So you you still have some legacy traits that
Joanne Lockwood: you you need empowerment with. So how do we make the language inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: to recognize what you need as well? It's a good question. And I think
Valentina Jaramillo: it it's also a tricky 1 because I'm not sure if if
Valentina Jaramillo: it's just about the language. Right? So 1 of the things that I I know
Valentina Jaramillo: that happens in a lot of corporate or that started to happen
Valentina Jaramillo: is that the the the ERGs, the women
Valentina Jaramillo: ERD was suddenly kind of they they put all the other genders in
Valentina Jaramillo: there, but it was kind of like, oh, we don't know what to do with
Valentina Jaramillo: you, so let's just tie them up here. Right? And maybe that was
Valentina Jaramillo: not the strategic thing to do or if you're gonna do it, maybe it was,
Valentina Jaramillo: but do it consciously. Right? And, again, bearing in mind that
Valentina Jaramillo: there are things in which they can support each other
Valentina Jaramillo: and, like, fight together or not fight, but, like,
Valentina Jaramillo: work to promote better together
Valentina Jaramillo: whether they're and there are also things that, okay, these are very specific to
Valentina Jaramillo: women and these are very specific to gender nonconforming people
Valentina Jaramillo: or non binary people. Right? So they can they can
Valentina Jaramillo: work in some things together or not. But therefore, to the
Valentina Jaramillo: point of the language, I don't know if it's about we just need to call
Valentina Jaramillo: them more gender minorities or because then we have the
Valentina Jaramillo: women who are like, okay, but we've been fighting this for so much. So look,
Valentina Jaramillo: I was born female and I identified female
Valentina Jaramillo: for a very long time because I didn't know better until I always
Valentina Jaramillo: felt like, oh, this is not where I feel, but I didn't know I had
Valentina Jaramillo: a choice. Right? So so I
Valentina Jaramillo: understand I've been there. Like you said, yes, there are some struggles just by the
Valentina Jaramillo: fact of who we are born as female when
Valentina Jaramillo: we we and if we continue to identify as that. And if
Valentina Jaramillo: not, it's not like suddenly, oh, those things that used to happen just
Valentina Jaramillo: moved over and I don't experience them anymore. Right? Then, they
Valentina Jaramillo: they've never disappeared. And I think if we get
Valentina Jaramillo: too too concerned on the language, then we start to lose lose
Valentina Jaramillo: focus of the real world of the real work that we have to do.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? So I I don't think everyone will ever agree because
Valentina Jaramillo: if we all call it gender we start to talk about gender minorities,
Valentina Jaramillo: let's say, there's probably gonna be a lot of women who are not happy about
Valentina Jaramillo: that and about all the work they've done and they which we know already happens.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? We know that there's no discussions already happening, and
Valentina Jaramillo: we don't want that. Like, the idea is not, hey. I'm not here to fight
Valentina Jaramillo: you. I really appreciate all the advancement and things that have happened for
Valentina Jaramillo: women because we needed them, and it's it's
Valentina Jaramillo: incredible that they haven't happened before and with 2024, and we still
Valentina Jaramillo: see that the pay gap and we still see not
Valentina Jaramillo: as many women in the in the leadership
Valentina Jaramillo: roles, like, so all good with that. And let's don't forget
Valentina Jaramillo: about the rest. Let's just see how we can bring them together
Valentina Jaramillo: with our action. Like, we are we are all want each other
Valentina Jaramillo: to thrive. Right? So if we start making more wires within the gender
Valentina Jaramillo: world, I think we end up nowhere. Not sure if that answered the question. No.
Joanne Lockwood: It's it's it's no. It does. It does. I I was talking to
Joanne Lockwood: a Joanne masculine friend of mine the other day and he was saying
Joanne Lockwood: I've always noticed an acquisition of privilege
Joanne Lockwood: losing people would no longer perceive him or read him
Joanne Lockwood: as female. And now he he's recognized that he's
Joanne Lockwood: gained privilege around a voice in a meeting,
Joanne Lockwood: being listened to, being heard, feeling safer on the
Joanne Lockwood: streets, being treated in a kind of that bro
Joanne Lockwood: culture that sort of be called mate and including the
Joanne Lockwood: male grouping. In fact, so much so that he he he recognized
Joanne Lockwood: that women now perceive him as a potential threat.
Joanne Lockwood: So he he has it really acknowledged the difference
Joanne Lockwood: of of how men and women are perceived in society.
Joanne Lockwood: Have you have you seen something similar from your lens, if you like, from outside
Joanne Lockwood: of the gender? Bullshit, if you like. Yes.
Valentina Jaramillo: I have to say and and and it's sad
Valentina Jaramillo: because it's realizations I've had recently
Valentina Jaramillo: that that okay. As a as a perceived
Valentina Jaramillo: white I am from Colombia. I don't see myself as white, but
Valentina Jaramillo: I understand I am perceived as white and I I
Valentina Jaramillo: lived as a cisgender woman for many years. I
Valentina Jaramillo: still had some more privileges that I completely lost
Valentina Jaramillo: when I came out as gender non conforming. And some
Valentina Jaramillo: were very easy to notice just the fact that, for example,
Valentina Jaramillo: people don't see me as gender non conforming. They have what they have in their
Valentina Jaramillo: mind and having people completely ignore when I say, yes. I'm
Valentina Jaramillo: gender nonconforming. My pronouns are they, them, and they keep she, she,
Valentina Jaramillo: she, and it's like, no. I'm not she. Like, can you
Valentina Jaramillo: respect me? Oh, but they is plural. And I'm like, yeah. No. They
Valentina Jaramillo: is not plural, you know. Like, and all these things,
Valentina Jaramillo: oh, but you make it so hard. And he's like, take a deep breath. It's
Valentina Jaramillo: not about you. You know? It's about me, but I'm so sorry I made it
Valentina Jaramillo: hard for you. Jo definitely and
Valentina Jaramillo: lately, some of those privileges that I've
Valentina Jaramillo: noticed So I have my my CV, my
Valentina Jaramillo: resume, and I include my pronouns in my resume.
Valentina Jaramillo: And I've applied for a couple of roles, and I haven't gotten
Valentina Jaramillo: any responses. And I've read articles about that. It has been proven
Valentina Jaramillo: how people who include their pronouns and it's they, them
Valentina Jaramillo: pronouns on their resumes don't get as many
Valentina Jaramillo: callbacks, and I'm leaving it. And I'm like, seriously? Like, this
Valentina Jaramillo: is reality. This is the world we live in. It makes me wonder,
Valentina Jaramillo: like, that's why, for example, doing
Valentina Jaramillo: stuff out in the world, putting out information, getting new clients, it
Valentina Jaramillo: just makes everything harder because people are like, yeah. This, I don't understand,
Valentina Jaramillo: so I don't relate. So just go to what I know and I feel safe
Valentina Jaramillo: with. Right? This person challenges might
Valentina Jaramillo: not, like, my conceived way of seeing the world. Like,
Valentina Jaramillo: thank you, but I rather go back to what I know and I feel
Valentina Jaramillo: safe. So yes. Definitely. I do think that definitely happens. Yeah. No.
Joanne Lockwood: I I hear what you're saying about the, it's too difficult for people.
Joanne Lockwood: They it's like, oh, come on. It's like, can you make it easy for
Joanne Lockwood: me? It's like, well, hang on a minute. It's it's not for me to make
Joanne Lockwood: it and it does challenge people because people are so ingrained
Joanne Lockwood: into their their way of speaking, their way of thinking. It's
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes hard to nudge people into a into a different orbit to think think
Joanne Lockwood: differently because it's it is. It's it's too much effort. And,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I think it it it it
Joanne Lockwood: frustrates me that we're in 2024. We've been talking
Joanne Lockwood: about this for generations and centuries,
Joanne Lockwood: and yet we're still ingrained. And people wanna put you back in the box,
Joanne Lockwood: don't they? They wanna they wanna make their assumption, and they want to tell
Joanne Lockwood: you that they're right and and not listen to you, and then
Joanne Lockwood: treat you differently because you use those pronouns. And
Joanne Lockwood: I've actually heard recruiters. I go to a lot of recruitment conferences,
Joanne Lockwood: and I speak to a lot of recruiters. And there's lots of anecdotes and stories
Joanne Lockwood: out there how some hiring managers, some recruiters will see pronouns on
Joanne Lockwood: your LinkedIn profile. And I've actually had people say, well, if I see pronouns
Joanne Lockwood: on someone's LinkedIn profile, their CV goes straight in the bin. And it's and it's
Joanne Lockwood: not just about they, them. It's any pronouns on a profile.
Joanne Lockwood: It's far too woke for them to to Joanne, so they just, I don't
Joanne Lockwood: want that person in my organization. And throw it out the window. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's the new you know, we saw that with racist type
Joanne Lockwood: remarks where people were looking at your photograph and saying, well, that that's not a
Joanne Lockwood: white person or that's not a woman or that's not a man or
Joanne Lockwood: something, and then rejecting you from your photograph. Now they're rejecting you for your pronoun.
Valentina Jaramillo: Yeah. No. It's quite sad that it's, as you said, 2024 and these things
Valentina Jaramillo: are happening. And I guess that's why we we are here and
Valentina Jaramillo: that's why we continue to do the work. Like, it's it's it's not
Valentina Jaramillo: that hard. Right? And when you actually see people getting it and then they are
Valentina Jaramillo: able to get past their own head and limitation and
Valentina Jaramillo: suddenly understand, like, hey, but that is not about
Valentina Jaramillo: me. It's actually about this person. So it's okay. I can call them
Valentina Jaramillo: whatever they want. Right? Or I can just respect them
Valentina Jaramillo: and it's fine. They are respectful with me. And then you see a
Valentina Jaramillo: change. Jo, again, if I think in the workplace,
Valentina Jaramillo: we're missing that conversation still. You know? There's not not that
Valentina Jaramillo: many places yet, especially, I would say,
Valentina Jaramillo: more typically male driven industries
Valentina Jaramillo: that like oil, I don't know, cars, automobile,
Valentina Jaramillo: things like that that have been usually more,
Valentina Jaramillo: or have been running for a long time and everything, they it's still too
Valentina Jaramillo: narrow minded. And they're struggling to get women parity
Valentina Jaramillo: there, but they're forgetting about the rest of us. And 1 day,
Valentina Jaramillo: they're gonna just turn around and see, like, oh, oops. Again, we have to go
Valentina Jaramillo: back to 0 with this gender equity. So the idea would be to start having
Valentina Jaramillo: those conversations now. At least gathering the data. Right? At
Valentina Jaramillo: least at a minimum, like, okay. This is the data. These are the
Valentina Jaramillo: pay differences. This is the amount of people we have in the workplace. These
Valentina Jaramillo: are not, you know. So at least from there,
Valentina Jaramillo: especially because the generations that are coming are more gender diverse,
Valentina Jaramillo: you know. There's more queer people, queer engender, queer in
Valentina Jaramillo: in their sexuality. So it's just like they have to catch
Valentina Jaramillo: up. Organizations will need to catch up before it's too late. Do you find
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes that you have to put yourself back in the box
Joanne Lockwood: for situations where you're travelling, you're doing something,
Joanne Lockwood: and it's just it's just too difficult to to push on
Joanne Lockwood: with who you are and you end up conforming to someone else's
Joanne Lockwood: rule set because you kinda have to. Do you find that
Joanne Lockwood: often? Yes. And it's sad and and it's
Valentina Jaramillo: hard. And I I last year, we were traveling
Valentina Jaramillo: in Southeast Asia and for the whole year with
Valentina Jaramillo: my with my wife, and we met a
Valentina Jaramillo: lot of people. And, definitely, there were places in in which we
Valentina Jaramillo: were hanging out with westerners. Right? People
Valentina Jaramillo: who were supposedly educated, digital nomads, all these
Valentina Jaramillo: things. No clue or understanding or even the
Valentina Jaramillo: desire to understand what their gender nonconforming
Valentina Jaramillo: was or is and that they could use they, them,
Valentina Jaramillo: pronouns. And it was like, okay. But if this is like, oh, she has
Valentina Jaramillo: she and she and she I'm like, I'm not she, they. Completely
Valentina Jaramillo: oblivious and I don't wanna change and I don't wanna make an effort and whatever.
Valentina Jaramillo: And there there was a moment, there were places in which we weren't staying
Valentina Jaramillo: for long. So there was a moment in which I you know what? This
Valentina Jaramillo: fighting is not even worth it. It's not worth it. I was very lucky that
Valentina Jaramillo: I have my wife and she was doing the fighting most of the time.
Valentina Jaramillo: She was like, they go by them. They go by they them and
Valentina Jaramillo: explaining the differences, and she's an amazing
Valentina Jaramillo: person in the way she explains it and has all the patience and all the
Valentina Jaramillo: love and does it. And at some point, she came to me and she told
Valentina Jaramillo: me I cannot do it anymore. And I was like, well, believe me. That
Valentina Jaramillo: happened to me too. You don't have to. You know, do it when you feel
Valentina Jaramillo: like it and when you feel resourced. But it's a fight
Valentina Jaramillo: that we cannot keep going. And back in the US,
Valentina Jaramillo: where you would think, like again, many of us think, oh, we're
Valentina Jaramillo: however you you wanna call it in a developed country or something. And,
Valentina Jaramillo: again, very many circumstances, I find myself
Valentina Jaramillo: quickly just deciding, you know what? I'm not gonna give it this fight
Valentina Jaramillo: and I try especially if it's short, quick Joanne fast conversations, I try to
Valentina Jaramillo: just yeah. Whatever. I'm not gonna fight you. But it's the
Valentina Jaramillo: the the importance of, like, inclusive language, companies, restaurants. I go
Valentina Jaramillo: to a restaurant with my wife and everyone's ladies, and it's like they should
Valentina Jaramillo: train their their people to say good morning, good afternoon, good
Valentina Jaramillo: evening, everyone. You know? Like, there's so many ways to call people without
Valentina Jaramillo: gendering them, and we should be doing much better
Valentina Jaramillo: on that and still not happening. Jo, yes, that
Valentina Jaramillo: happens a lot. Many situations and and what I do what I do is I
Valentina Jaramillo: how much energy I have and how long the to to give
Valentina Jaramillo: the the explanation, to try the other person to
Valentina Jaramillo: understand, make them understand how long is the interaction
Valentina Jaramillo: going to be, and if it's going to be more meaningful and it has a
Valentina Jaramillo: possibility of a relationship, a friendship, or something, then it's like,
Valentina Jaramillo: okay. I'm gonna take my time and I'll try it for x amount. If
Valentina Jaramillo: at certain point, they just don't get it. He's like, thank you, but I don't
Valentina Jaramillo: wanna be your friend. Right? Continue this relation. And where
Valentina Jaramillo: they're very short interactions, it's like, okay. Whatever. Just assume the
Valentina Jaramillo: box smile because whatever. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm pretty determined to correct
Joanne Lockwood: everybody that gets it wrong. I mean, it it it happens enough
Joanne Lockwood: for it to be annoying. And you you say, my wife,
Joanne Lockwood: she's a a fierce defender, and she'll she'll growl
Joanne Lockwood: at people and and, she'll she'll fight back. And Jo,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it's it's not as nice to say, you deal with this 1. I I'm
Joanne Lockwood: I'm just gonna go and sit sit down. It's it's over to you. But, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I I guess as a as a as a trans woman, a binary trans
Joanne Lockwood: person, where where it's easy for someone it's easy for me to
Joanne Lockwood: say, actually, it's madam or actually, it's not so or it's not
Joanne Lockwood: this. It's not and and I can lock them onto a a female
Joanne Lockwood: gender. It's much easier than or I imagine it's
Joanne Lockwood: much easier for me is for you to say, actually, Jo. It's not
Joanne Lockwood: she. It's they. And they go, what? And there's a must be
Joanne Lockwood: a real kind of they just look blank at you, I'm sure. Yes.
Valentina Jaramillo: And and I think it shouldn't happen to you to to you either. I
Joanne Lockwood: know. So I think But it does. Yeah. I know. I know. But it's
Valentina Jaramillo: like yeah. Well so I think even if we use
Valentina Jaramillo: inclusive language, the people would avoid those circumstances.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? Because if we just generalize for
Valentina Jaramillo: everyone, like, we we avoid making more
Valentina Jaramillo: people uncomfortable. Right? So or hurting people because it actually
Valentina Jaramillo: hurts. That is the reality. It is. And every
Joanne Lockwood: time I'm it's often I find it when I'm commuting by train
Joanne Lockwood: and you're standing on the platform, and they they announce the train
Joanne Lockwood: or they say, ladies and gentlemen, the train now arriving or ladies and
Joanne Lockwood: gentlemen this, ladies and gentlemen that. It is we're so ingrained certainly in
Joanne Lockwood: British culture. I'm sure many English speaking countries,
Joanne Lockwood: there's this ingrained politeness of having to say,
Joanne Lockwood: ladies and gentlemen or sir, madam, where actually,
Joanne Lockwood: as you said, you can just put a full stop earlier.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, full stop, or good morning, full stop. You don't
Joanne Lockwood: actually have to continue the sentence on with sir, mad, or anything else. You can
Joanne Lockwood: just say, how are you? But people are so ingrained with the language Joanne there.
Joanne Lockwood: That's that's the challenge. It's it's getting people to step back and think, I
Joanne Lockwood: can move the full stop. It's that easy. Yes. Well,
Valentina Jaramillo: language is a big thing and I think and what people seem to
Valentina Jaramillo: forget is that languages evolve the same as culture. Right?
Valentina Jaramillo: Google and googling was a world a word that didn't exist and
Valentina Jaramillo: it's now used and we all understand what it means. You know? So
Valentina Jaramillo: there's a lot of words that many words that just came appearing
Valentina Jaramillo: as things were made and appeared. I need I by this, I
Valentina Jaramillo: don't mean that we just appear. Right? But we are starting to to name
Valentina Jaramillo: us and be present and be here Jo people can get used to different things.
Valentina Jaramillo: It's not like, oh, no. Sorry. Jo that language is a
Valentina Jaramillo: very particular thing. I I am from Colombia. I was born in
Valentina Jaramillo: Colombia, and we speak Spanish, and it's
Valentina Jaramillo: even more complicated because it's a gender language.
Valentina Jaramillo: And so the struggle is even harder because when you ask,
Valentina Jaramillo: they ask is for people to use something that is completely new,
Valentina Jaramillo: which is using not a or o as they're used to, but
Valentina Jaramillo: using an e or maybe even an x. Right? And people are
Valentina Jaramillo: having heart attacks and, like, oh my gosh. What's going on? What are you
Valentina Jaramillo: doing, ruining our language? And it's like,
Valentina Jaramillo: not necessarily. I I had the pleasure of reading
Valentina Jaramillo: an article this weekend that my mom sent me from Colombia
Valentina Jaramillo: in which the actual director of of,
Valentina Jaramillo: are writing my stream from the institute Instituto
Valentina Jaramillo: Jose Cuervo, which is the lang the language institute in in
Valentina Jaramillo: Colombia. He is actually explaining why their
Valentina Jaramillo: their course and why the institute the their institute
Valentina Jaramillo: is advocating for inclusive language in Spanish, whether it's an
Valentina Jaramillo: x instead of a or or o or an e, and
Valentina Jaramillo: it's just because language evolves and it changes. And
Valentina Jaramillo: the more we can open it up, the more inclusive we're gonna be and the
Valentina Jaramillo: more open we are to life and to people experiences. So it was kind of
Valentina Jaramillo: like, oh, okay. A little of of
Valentina Jaramillo: love came through that article. But, yeah, it's just
Valentina Jaramillo: about wanting to change and about I seriously, I I sometimes,
Valentina Jaramillo: like, why is it so hard for people? Because the only thing I'm asking them
Valentina Jaramillo: like, I'm a person and I want respect the same as you do and the
Valentina Jaramillo: same as they do. Right? So it's just like, okay. You wanna be
Valentina Jaramillo: call if you wanna be call or if your name is
Valentina Jaramillo: whatever. My name is Valentina, and people come and call me
Valentina Jaramillo: Jo. Well, no. My name is Valentina. What can I
Valentina Jaramillo: do? You know? Please call me Valentina. So it's kind of the
Valentina Jaramillo: same thing. Right? Like, it's just respect for each other and seeing each
Valentina Jaramillo: other for who we are and just letting us be
Valentina Jaramillo: without especially if we're not harming anyone. Right?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, I was talking to someone the other day, I think, and they
Joanne Lockwood: were saying that English is a really difficult to let learn language to learn
Joanne Lockwood: if you're learning it as a second language or third language. It's
Joanne Lockwood: really complicated given all the rules and or the lack of rules sometimes, all the
Joanne Lockwood: duplicate words and spellings. But it must be really hard as a
Joanne Lockwood: as a person who is gender non conforming, living in a gendered
Joanne Lockwood: language world. You know, you've mentioned the and I'm not sure if this is
Joanne Lockwood: Spanish or Portuguese, but it's
Joanne Lockwood: depending on if it's male or female. And every
Joanne Lockwood: verb and noun is kind of gendered, and you have
Joanne Lockwood: change the ending. As you said, o or a. I was talking to someone in
Joanne Lockwood: Poland, and the Polish language also has constructs like that.
Joanne Lockwood: And even what you can call yourself has to come off a
Joanne Lockwood: list the government provides. You can change your name. And it has to end
Joanne Lockwood: in an a if you're female or not an a. I think it's
Joanne Lockwood: an a a or not common what what it is if you're a
Joanne Lockwood: male. But there is no kind of rule set around non binary or gender nonconforming
Joanne Lockwood: because you have to has to be on this list or this list. Yep. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's And and Polish so my wife is Polish. That's a
Valentina Jaramillo: coincidence. Ah, okay. So they have but they at
Valentina Jaramillo: least have a new term, like, a a neutral term. So
Valentina Jaramillo: so which they use for things, which is not a good
Valentina Jaramillo: example, but at least they're used to. Right? They either for babies,
Valentina Jaramillo: it's the neutral. And, again, yeah, the nouns and everything
Valentina Jaramillo: gets gender, but at least it's a concept that exists.
Valentina Jaramillo: They kind of understand that neutral term. In Spanish,
Valentina Jaramillo: origado is Portuguese, but it's the same Portuguese French, they're all gender
Valentina Jaramillo: language Joanne you have to there
Valentina Jaramillo: is not that possibility, right, so people are like,
Valentina Jaramillo: well, Jo. That just doesn't exist or it sounds funny or yeah. It sounds
Valentina Jaramillo: funny because it's a new word. I guess I didn't I'm thinking
Valentina Jaramillo: a cellular phone probably sounded funny at the beginning when we just started using
Valentina Jaramillo: them. And now cell phone is super common and everyone knows what a cell
Valentina Jaramillo: phone is and no 1 would even think about questioning why
Valentina Jaramillo: did was it called cellular, you know.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo It's quite it's quite easy in English to write a a gender
Joanne Lockwood: neutral email or or statement. I mean, the
Joanne Lockwood: intro I read out today is gender has they, them, their
Joanne Lockwood: pronouns throughout it. If you were to write that in
Joanne Lockwood: in Spanish or another gendered language, how could you Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: how could you do that? Would would that work? So that's the
Valentina Jaramillo: struggle. Right? Because in English English, yes
Valentina Jaramillo: has genders in the does it has she and he and in the pronouns,
Valentina Jaramillo: but, the the if let's
Valentina Jaramillo: say, if it's a pretty boy or a pretty girl, pretty is still
Valentina Jaramillo: the same. Right? In in Spanish,
Valentina Jaramillo: if if you if you wanted to say the the actual and
Valentina Jaramillo: let's put another example, Height.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? A tall girl or a tall boy, it's
Valentina Jaramillo: tall. Right? In Spanish, it's
Valentina Jaramillo: or Joanne
Valentina Jaramillo: for gender nonconforming, well, the they wanna put an
Valentina Jaramillo: e or we would put an e, But it's something
Valentina Jaramillo: that all until recently has not been used. It
Valentina Jaramillo: is trying to be more and more and more and more installed
Valentina Jaramillo: and depending again, II1 of the reasons I have a
Valentina Jaramillo: hard time going back to my country is because of the language and because the
Valentina Jaramillo: people that surround me there, not
Valentina Jaramillo: necessarily the most woke people, and
Valentina Jaramillo: I have to change it. However, I do have a group of friends that
Valentina Jaramillo: are very woke, and they do their effort, and they do it, and by now,
Valentina Jaramillo: they're used to. My wife is fluent in Spanish, and maybe
Valentina Jaramillo: just because she's it's not her first language or whatever, but she never gets it
Valentina Jaramillo: wrong. She always use constantly.
Valentina Jaramillo: She even corrects me if I make a mistake.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? So, again, I mistakes I
Valentina Jaramillo: make mistakes too, so it's not about that. It's about the intent of wanting
Valentina Jaramillo: to to try something different. And the excuse is like, oh, that's
Valentina Jaramillo: just crazy. That doesn't exist. That's not grammatically correct or
Valentina Jaramillo: anything. And if yeah. Again, language evolves. It doesn't mean it cannot
Valentina Jaramillo: change. These things were not talked about before, and that's why I had a
Valentina Jaramillo: hard time growing up in Colombia because this was not a possibility. You
Valentina Jaramillo: know? When I I was born, they told my parents this is a girl
Valentina Jaramillo: and this is a package of the way I was
Valentina Jaramillo: supposed to be just because I was assigned a girl
Valentina Jaramillo: when I was born. Right? And it never felt right.
Valentina Jaramillo: It never did, and neither did men, boy.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? But I never knew there was this
Valentina Jaramillo: I can be just anything and it doesn't really matter. I don't have to
Valentina Jaramillo: be this or that and prescribed as this or
Valentina Jaramillo: that. And my own experience at some point, I
Valentina Jaramillo: thought, okay. I'll conform to being a woman but in my own
Valentina Jaramillo: terms. And I that kind of did it for a
Valentina Jaramillo: while until the day I was able to find out,
Valentina Jaramillo: like, I it doesn't matter how old I am. This is
Valentina Jaramillo: who I am. I felt seriously out of a
Valentina Jaramillo: box, and it was the happiest day of my life. Just like,
Valentina Jaramillo: oh, I don't have to conform. It's their problem. And I
Valentina Jaramillo: was 40 years old and who cares? This is the
Valentina Jaramillo: moment I'm free, you know? Like, I'm actually out of a
Valentina Jaramillo: cage. And if you cannot handle it, so
Valentina Jaramillo: sorry. Right? And this has been a journey to get to this point
Valentina Jaramillo: of not apologizing for being who I am. Right? Or
Valentina Jaramillo: not, but actually just being myself. When when you were saying that
Joanne Lockwood: that, you you misgender yourself, get it wrong
Joanne Lockwood: yourself, I was I was laughing on the inside because I
Joanne Lockwood: I often misgender myself, and it's you know, you
Joanne Lockwood: live for 40, 50, 60 years of your life with a certain
Joanne Lockwood: phraseology and and and rule book in your head, which is why I
Joanne Lockwood: I'm very tolerant of others because I I'm I'm not perfect with
Joanne Lockwood: me. And, also, I would like your
Joanne Lockwood: wife, my wife is probably more accurate than I am. She gets it
Joanne Lockwood: right all the time, and we sometimes joke about it. I go,
Joanne Lockwood: duh. If it doesn't make you less valid,
Joanne Lockwood: the fact you get it wrong yourself doesn't make you less valid. And I've I've
Joanne Lockwood: heard people say, well, you're not really a woman then if you keep getting it
Joanne Lockwood: wrong. I went, I am. It's just it's linguistic. Some
Joanne Lockwood: somersaults. You can't our brains aren't always able to to
Joanne Lockwood: to pivot on this stuff, and I which is why I completely understand people
Joanne Lockwood: who struggle because I I struggle sometimes. Not often, but
Joanne Lockwood: often enough. Yeah. I think it's about making the effort. I think that's what the
Valentina Jaramillo: key and that's what I try to teach people. But I think that's where that's
Valentina Jaramillo: what the other hard part. We and corporate
Valentina Jaramillo: world and everything, it wants to be so perfect Joanne people want to just get
Valentina Jaramillo: it right every time and everything that they rather not do
Valentina Jaramillo: anything. Right? So you know what? This is too hard. I'm not even gonna
Valentina Jaramillo: try. Because what if I make a mistake? What if I hurt this person? What
Valentina Jaramillo: if I get it wrong and I misgender them? And it's like,
Valentina Jaramillo: no. What I try to tell people, particularly with me, I just wanna
Valentina Jaramillo: see that you care and that you try, not that you decide to
Valentina Jaramillo: choose what my identity is. Right? Like, if if you
Valentina Jaramillo: we're talking and we're amused by mistake, say she
Valentina Jaramillo: whatever. Turn day and move on. Nothing nothing happens.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? We all may make mistakes. Even even I make
Valentina Jaramillo: mistakes when I talk about me in Spanish and, like, it happens.
Valentina Jaramillo: So it's not about that, but it's about the intent about people. Like, okay.
Valentina Jaramillo: I see you. I respect you, and I'm gonna do my best to try.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? And we know that there are lots of ways for people to get better
Valentina Jaramillo: with pronouns, like practicing what,
Valentina Jaramillo: with my wife a long, long time ago before
Valentina Jaramillo: any even I transitioned that we would just name
Valentina Jaramillo: gender things at our house just to get used to using the different
Valentina Jaramillo: genders. Right? And just they they they they they, and we would
Valentina Jaramillo: just practice and then you start getting it into your head. So it's it's about
Valentina Jaramillo: that, but it's the intent. And I think this is kind
Valentina Jaramillo: of the idea with gender equity. We can make
Valentina Jaramillo: mistakes still, but let's all go to allow everyone to thrive.
Valentina Jaramillo: And yeah. Okay. You made a mistake. You learned the
Valentina Jaramillo: lesson. You're trying. Let's go to the next. You know? Let's
Valentina Jaramillo: start to talk to have these conversations. Let's stop being afraid. Like,
Valentina Jaramillo: we exist and we are part of the the corporate corporate world
Valentina Jaramillo: too, and we wanna work and we wanna have an impact, so just
Valentina Jaramillo: invite me to the conversation. Right? Invite us to the conversation. I think
Joanne Lockwood: 1 of the trickiest things my wife and I and also
Joanne Lockwood: my family, I suppose, had to deal with was how to refer to me
Joanne Lockwood: within the family. So we got married
Joanne Lockwood: 37 years ago, so we were married a long time. And I was
Joanne Lockwood: always a husband. So when I when I transitioned,
Joanne Lockwood: we started Marie got to a point Marie is my wife. We got to a
Joanne Lockwood: point where she couldn't refer to me as husband because it just looked
Joanne Lockwood: ridiculous. We're in a shop or something. Oh, and my husband's she got
Joanne Lockwood: she she just found it awkward herself, but she just couldn't do it.
Joanne Lockwood: So then we started using well, she started using the word partner.
Joanne Lockwood: And then she found that that didn't reflect how she saw
Joanne Lockwood: me, because partner often is associated with being not
Joanne Lockwood: married. Or so she wanted to reinforce the fact she was
Joanne Lockwood: married. So she now uses wife purely
Joanne Lockwood: because it it describes that that we're married, and she feels
Joanne Lockwood: quite quite stay for that. My mom calls me her daughter,
Joanne Lockwood: which is quite good, but my our 2 children call me dad
Joanne Lockwood: because it's fine with me. It doesn't actually bother me that much. And
Joanne Lockwood: and if it makes them happy and our relationship is strong,
Joanne Lockwood: really doesn't matter. So, yeah, it's it's a really crazy environment where my
Joanne Lockwood: wife's using she, her pronouns. Our daughter's using the odd he,
Joanne Lockwood: him, and dad. And it's kind of it's a whole mix of stuff going on.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's he just has to Jo, it doesn't matter sometimes, does
Joanne Lockwood: it? No. It doesn't matter. I and I think that's
Valentina Jaramillo: that would be the idea, right, to get to these places where it doesn't
Valentina Jaramillo: matter. And that at work, it doesn't matter and we can all just
Valentina Jaramillo: be, but, unfortunately, I don't think that's where we are because I still
Valentina Jaramillo: think, well, there's a lot of hate out there for
Valentina Jaramillo: people like us. Right? There's a lot
Valentina Jaramillo: of unconscious bias that people if if you have a CV that has your
Valentina Jaramillo: pronouns, whatever they are, I'm just gonna throw it away. If I see it on
Valentina Jaramillo: LinkedIn, you are also not valid into my part. You know, like,
Valentina Jaramillo: all these things. So until we don't finish, like, or
Valentina Jaramillo: don't do the work, unfortunately, I think it
Valentina Jaramillo: will still matter. So it's this tricky how how to get to that
Valentina Jaramillo: balancing where it doesn't matter. Right? Yeah. There's some quite sort of the work you're
Joanne Lockwood: doing with organizations then in, in promoting gender equity and
Joanne Lockwood: also the the DEIB consultancy you're doing with
Joanne Lockwood: organizations. So what sort of are the priorities you're working on at the moment?
Valentina Jaramillo: I so I work definitely on on helping them get their
Valentina Jaramillo: gender equity strategies, and to be
Valentina Jaramillo: inclusive in their gender equity strategy. With many, what we are
Valentina Jaramillo: starting to do is just have that conversation
Valentina Jaramillo: and to to start gathering the
Valentina Jaramillo: data. Right? Because many of the
Valentina Jaramillo: I've been working mostly with nonprofits, and they're
Valentina Jaramillo: not huge but between, yeah,
Valentina Jaramillo: medium or small nonprofits. And they don't have a lot of this
Valentina Jaramillo: data on their own. Many don't even have gender nonconforming employees, but
Valentina Jaramillo: they do support gender nonconforming people or gender nonconforming
Valentina Jaramillo: people come to like, part of the people they help or work with, and
Valentina Jaramillo: therefore, they just need to be aware and know these things. So
Valentina Jaramillo: gathering the data, making sure that they are using inclusive policies,
Valentina Jaramillo: that people use inclusive language for everyone, that trying to
Valentina Jaramillo: to start to build even in these small spaces,
Valentina Jaramillo: that ground start. Right? So that when it keeps advancing
Valentina Jaramillo: and they hire end up hiring someone that is gender nonconforming, that
Valentina Jaramillo: person's gonna be happy and actually
Valentina Jaramillo: have no issues entering the workplace because it's been set up for
Valentina Jaramillo: them. Right? It's been an easy transition. And,
Valentina Jaramillo: also, at the same time, making sure that they have and
Valentina Jaramillo: they're complying and getting better even with their
Valentina Jaramillo: women gender equity. Right? Like, with the women in power
Valentina Jaramillo: and all these things that we know. And
Valentina Jaramillo: I try to advocate, and this is because a personal experience, a lot for
Valentina Jaramillo: gender neutral restrooms. It is a simple thing, but it
Valentina Jaramillo: is also not a simple thing. So just making sure if
Valentina Jaramillo: there's ways in which these organizations can implement those,
Valentina Jaramillo: especially the ones that have, like, these facilities
Valentina Jaramillo: available for their customers or the people they support. So
Valentina Jaramillo: just having these options. But I think what
Valentina Jaramillo: I mostly work with is the policies,
Valentina Jaramillo: making sure that all the language is inclusive, that they have
Valentina Jaramillo: policies to cover all the spectrum and that
Valentina Jaramillo: they don't you know, like pregnancy, it's covered for
Valentina Jaramillo: everyone. You know? Like, these kind of things that they don't say
Valentina Jaramillo: women health, but, like, reproductive health. Things things
Valentina Jaramillo: like that because not only women can get pregnant.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? So that they all these sort of things are inclusive
Valentina Jaramillo: and the strategy. And, again, the collecting of the data because
Valentina Jaramillo: there is no that not a lot of data occurring. Do you find that
Joanne Lockwood: do you find that changing the language like that
Joanne Lockwood: alienates women who have a traditionist view, and they
Joanne Lockwood: can get quite angry around rewriting traditionally female
Joanne Lockwood: terms like pregnancy and and childbirth and
Joanne Lockwood: motherhood and birthing, all all this all the language around
Joanne Lockwood: menopause as well. Very traditionally female gendered, and then
Joanne Lockwood: when we start to rewrite that language, I've I've
Joanne Lockwood: experienced many women getting disenfranchised and getting
Joanne Lockwood: angry by trying to erase their femininity. How do you how
Joanne Lockwood: do you kinda get around that? Well, I think, unfortunately, this
Valentina Jaramillo: is part of the of, the oppressive systems
Valentina Jaramillo: by showing that if they remove the word that that
Valentina Jaramillo: women let's say, that women are only women and that what gives them the
Valentina Jaramillo: power is that they are the it's women health and this is
Valentina Jaramillo: their thing and this is their status, but this is the part of the oppressive
Valentina Jaramillo: system. If you are not this, then you don't exist. And it's like, Jo. You
Valentina Jaramillo: are equally feminine and you've got your power and you still
Valentina Jaramillo: just realize that it is reproductive health
Valentina Jaramillo: because it can be other people whose gender is
Valentina Jaramillo: not women, right, and I think
Valentina Jaramillo: it's kind of a hard 1 because it does happen and it is
Valentina Jaramillo: also sad that it happens because that's not the purpose.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? Like, the the purpose when we advocate for using
Valentina Jaramillo: lactating rooms instead of the maternity room at work,
Valentina Jaramillo: It doesn't mean that we don't want women there or anything like that. Right?
Valentina Jaramillo: It's just like, let's broaden our minds. However, oppressive
Valentina Jaramillo: systems wants us to believe that. And again, I do believe that the the
Valentina Jaramillo: patriarchy and the oppressive system wants us to
Valentina Jaramillo: keep fighting because if they make us fight against each other,
Valentina Jaramillo: they call the power. Right? Whether we unite and we are all like,
Valentina Jaramillo: yes. It's reproductive health and,
Valentina Jaramillo: lactating rooms and all these words and we just try
Valentina Jaramillo: to change language to be more inclusive,
Valentina Jaramillo: they're gonna start losing and losing and losing their power,
Valentina Jaramillo: and I'm not sure they can handle it. So I think it's
Valentina Jaramillo: about that. Yeah. III agree. But I do I do see
Joanne Lockwood: or hear lots of people getting worried
Joanne Lockwood: about the erasure of what it means to be a
Joanne Lockwood: woman. And a lot of the vociferous Joanne trans rhetoric is
Joanne Lockwood: often directed at at trans women for being seen as
Joanne Lockwood: invaders into female spaces as being threats. And it's so it's
Joanne Lockwood: it's this is concerted
Joanne Lockwood: voice of of anti transness, if you like,
Joanne Lockwood: around trying to protect what it means to be a woman, and that's that's part
Joanne Lockwood: of the challenge, isn't it? And when we're trying to take gender out of the
Joanne Lockwood: equation, there are people trying to force it back in. But I would ask those
Valentina Jaramillo: people because I think when I don't know how many people have really asked what
Valentina Jaramillo: does it mean to be a woman and get an answer that is, you know
Valentina Jaramillo: or or a man for that matter. Right?
Valentina Jaramillo: And and it ends up being a social construct. Right? Like,
Valentina Jaramillo: if you if you really go through the work, it's a social construct.
Valentina Jaramillo: And you can choose to this is how I identify and it's fine
Valentina Jaramillo: and it's beautiful and everything. But to people who are using it,
Valentina Jaramillo: in this case, women who are using this rhetoric
Valentina Jaramillo: against trans women, it's like, seriously? Like, what
Valentina Jaramillo: what part of your femininity is being aggravated
Valentina Jaramillo: because of a trans woman? I understand that there's a big
Valentina Jaramillo: rhetoric around the bathrooms. That's why I say it's it's a simple 1, but
Valentina Jaramillo: it's not so simple because of the danger the women are in, and it's
Valentina Jaramillo: like, what are you talking about? Like, seriously? I
Valentina Jaramillo: think it's, oh, I forgot his
Valentina Jaramillo: name. The comedian South African comedian, Noah
Valentina Jaramillo: Trevor Noah. He has a great sketch in which
Valentina Jaramillo: he talks about, like, seriously? Are people just waiting out there
Valentina Jaramillo: for for for the bathroom to see who goes in? Like, it does
Valentina Jaramillo: it's not gonna happen. Right? There and what actually
Valentina Jaramillo: happens is that there's a lot of transgender women being
Valentina Jaramillo: hit, tortured, aggravated,
Valentina Jaramillo: etcetera, for having to use a bathroom that does not align with
Valentina Jaramillo: the sex that they that they choose. Right? So I
Valentina Jaramillo: think it's the opposite and and I know this rhetoric
Valentina Jaramillo: exists, but my invitation to these people would be just
Valentina Jaramillo: like, what part of the femininity is attached to
Valentina Jaramillo: a transgender fem like, femininity? The the relationship for
Valentina Jaramillo: me, I don't see it. So I would invite people to just really
Valentina Jaramillo: try and see why would they affect it more or not. And the
Valentina Jaramillo: same with using reproductive health and
Valentina Jaramillo: menstrual products. You know?
Valentina Jaramillo: Just I I think that when we do better for a specific group, we
Valentina Jaramillo: do better for all. Right? When 1 of the underrepresented groups,
Valentina Jaramillo: we do better for everyone. Yeah. We've we've seen loads of studies out
Joanne Lockwood: there around the pink tax. Your your
Joanne Lockwood: female products generally are more
Joanne Lockwood: expensive per ounce, aren't they? You know, if you wanna buy
Joanne Lockwood: women's shaving foam, it's the same shaving foam as men's shaving foam. It
Joanne Lockwood: still got aloe vera in it. It still got the same stuff. It's just got
Joanne Lockwood: a pink pink label on the outside. It costs more pink razor blades,
Joanne Lockwood: pink pink anything. It's got it's more expensive proportion. So it's a
Joanne Lockwood: marketing thing. But, yeah, you talk about social construct. It's also a marketing construct, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? That we we're trying to sell to specific people with a
Joanne Lockwood: brand, with a with a kind of visual representation, and the world's kind of geared
Joanne Lockwood: up around that kind of that binary product.
Valentina Jaramillo: Yeah. It's sad. And and again, systems of oppression,
Valentina Jaramillo: capitalism is 1 of those. Right? And it's about we wanna sell
Valentina Jaramillo: more, we want more money, who cares about your liberty and your right to be?
Valentina Jaramillo: This is what money is, what rules, and I think this is part
Valentina Jaramillo: of the things we we need to change and take into account.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? Hey. You can sell whatever you want for whatever price
Valentina Jaramillo: you want, still respect people. Right? And you I'm
Valentina Jaramillo: I'm I'm probably sure that they can come up with a lot of
Valentina Jaramillo: other marketing ways to charge us more for products.
Valentina Jaramillo: It's just gonna take creativity. So maybe they should embrace
Valentina Jaramillo: diversity because it sparks creativity and they will
Valentina Jaramillo: find other ways to to market us, not based on
Valentina Jaramillo: that construct. Talk about marketing there. You know, we're smack
Joanne Lockwood: bang in the middle of pride season, you know, that, rainbows
Joanne Lockwood: everywhere, people celebrating their love. But it's kind of a lot of it is
Joanne Lockwood: pink washing. A lot of it is performative.
Joanne Lockwood: So what do you how do you call it out? How do you how do
Joanne Lockwood: you work with organizations to make them a little bit more authentic
Joanne Lockwood: around their, their advocacy, if you like? I think that the key thing
Valentina Jaramillo: is that they so pride shouldn't be and we've seen it and
Valentina Jaramillo: we've said it a lot, but pride shouldn't be just about June or
Valentina Jaramillo: whatever month because, for example, here in Atlanta is in October, but what you know,
Valentina Jaramillo: like, it shouldn't be around June or about that particular month.
Valentina Jaramillo: So I believe that companies who are doing the right
Valentina Jaramillo: thing are doing it all through the year, not just changing their logos
Valentina Jaramillo: the 1st June and then changing them
Valentina Jaramillo: back. Right? That you actually know these companies are
Valentina Jaramillo: walking their walk all the time constantly. You see them
Valentina Jaramillo: advocating for their employees. You see posts on LinkedIn. You see their
Valentina Jaramillo: people. You you see them hire different diversity. You see
Valentina Jaramillo: that the people who work at this company have their pronouns on
Valentina Jaramillo: LinkedIn. You see that they that they
Valentina Jaramillo: are doing courses. They're trying to learn. These people are
Valentina Jaramillo: definitely wanting a change
Valentina Jaramillo: also. Right? And these companies want that. And I think the
Valentina Jaramillo: this year, it was clear that many
Valentina Jaramillo: people it was rainbow washing and it is still because many
Valentina Jaramillo: companies dropped their support and we were able to see I don't know
Valentina Jaramillo: what your thought is, but I think that even on LinkedIn, there's less
Valentina Jaramillo: and less companies who just change their their their logo to
Valentina Jaramillo: pride logo. I'm surprised. I go watching
Valentina Jaramillo: their accounts and everything, and I haven't seen as many as, like, let's
Valentina Jaramillo: say, 2 years ago, everyone who had the pride flag on their on
Valentina Jaramillo: their logos. Right? So it's about the
Valentina Jaramillo: we end up knowing, right, who just puts out a product on
Valentina Jaramillo: on on pride, and then you'd never see them the
Valentina Jaramillo: rest of the of the time. Right? Or you never pride?
Valentina Jaramillo: Like, what's that? They you look at their at their board and
Valentina Jaramillo: everyone is white cis men. No 1 puts their
Valentina Jaramillo: pronouns on their on their on their LinkedIn
Valentina Jaramillo: profiles or anywhere in their websites. So I think we by now,
Valentina Jaramillo: we can start to notice and really see those companies and if
Valentina Jaramillo: they haven't figured it out, and they will
Valentina Jaramillo: probably start to see it in their revenue also because and in the way they
Valentina Jaramillo: attract people and talent and retain their talent
Valentina Jaramillo: because, and again, every generation is becoming
Valentina Jaramillo: even more queer. Right? Like, Gen z Gen z,
Valentina Jaramillo: it's more queer. I don't know what it's like 3 out of 5 or
Valentina Jaramillo: something to be considered they consider themselves queer.
Valentina Jaramillo: So it's gonna have to stop the the rainbow washing. Right? We
Valentina Jaramillo: wanna see the real thing and real action and that you are committed.
Valentina Jaramillo: And another thing, I think, which is important, and I know it's happening in
Valentina Jaramillo: the UK and here in the US also, there's a lot of backlash
Valentina Jaramillo: politically right now for the community. And I think
Valentina Jaramillo: companies who have power, because they do, and here in the US,
Valentina Jaramillo: companies are allowed to lobby, They should be lobbying for for
Valentina Jaramillo: trans and LGBTQ rights and not
Valentina Jaramillo: just for how to sell more. You know, but they should
Valentina Jaramillo: actually be lobbying for
Valentina Jaramillo: our rights. Yeah. No. I I yeah. I agree.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's I'm I'm quite charitable when it comes to,
Joanne Lockwood: companies changing their logos because for me, it it
Joanne Lockwood: communicates in 2 directions. 1 is to the outside world, to the public,
Joanne Lockwood: to their customers, to to part of a marketing brand, but also
Joanne Lockwood: communicates internally. So I'm thinking about
Joanne Lockwood: their their queer staff, their trans staff, their non binary staff,
Joanne Lockwood: looking up and seeing their company has taken
Joanne Lockwood: the initiative to change their logo to they feel seen
Joanne Lockwood: and heard and amplified internally. So I'm I'm quite charitable that
Joanne Lockwood: organizations that do it at the bequest, if you like, of
Joanne Lockwood: their staff network, the ERG, their pride network, I
Joanne Lockwood: think it's a good thing because it it shows that they're being heard and listened
Joanne Lockwood: to and being amplified. It's ones that do it where they're they're literally trying to
Joanne Lockwood: sell product off the off the back of it. But I think if it's authentic
Joanne Lockwood: and representative of their staff, I think I think that's a good motivation.
Joanne Lockwood: And I also recognize that it takes a lot of people to change a logo
Joanne Lockwood: on a company. Marketing, sign off, communications
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Legal. Yeah. Just think about the number of people that have to get involved,
Joanne Lockwood: change the company's logo, and I think for them to have done that, as they're
Joanne Lockwood: a big global organization, they must have put some effort into it internally.
Joanne Lockwood: So I I respect the effort it takes, provided you
Joanne Lockwood: say, there's some authenticity about that. It's not just not just for June,
Joanne Lockwood: not just for July. It's it's 365. And,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. But IIII do have a lot of empathy for for what
Joanne Lockwood: organizations are trying to do. I'd rather they did that
Joanne Lockwood: and show allyship to their staff than not do it at all or or say
Joanne Lockwood: to their staff, no. No. No. We can't do that. Jo, yeah, it's it's trying
Joanne Lockwood: to balance it out, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I agree that it has to
Valentina Jaramillo: be authentic, but I think employees inside know. I think
Valentina Jaramillo: precisely it's them who know whether that company was authentic
Valentina Jaramillo: or not. Because if I work for a company, I'm an LGBTQIA
Valentina Jaramillo: identified person, and I work for a company that suddenly
Valentina Jaramillo: changes their their logo to Pride to the Rainbow
Valentina Jaramillo: logo. Right? But I don't see anyone represented. I
Valentina Jaramillo: actually am closeted because I don't feel safe. No 1
Valentina Jaramillo: ever asked for pronouns. None of the things. Then,
Valentina Jaramillo: you know, like, the it's not authentic. And those people, those employees
Valentina Jaramillo: are the wanna the ones who are gonna let us know, right, that that that's
Valentina Jaramillo: not the truth. And when you work for a company who changes
Valentina Jaramillo: the logo and you are part of the community and you are like, oh, yes.
Valentina Jaramillo: Here, they see me. They value me. But not because they changed the logo, but
Valentina Jaramillo: because the ERG is strong. They invest in us. They all these
Valentina Jaramillo: things. And he's like, okay. I'm happy that they do it, and I'm proud to
Valentina Jaramillo: work for this company. Right? So, again, it's kind of companies that
Valentina Jaramillo: retain their talent and all the things we know that happen when
Valentina Jaramillo: these things are authentic and not just to check a box. Jo if you
Joanne Lockwood: have to come up with 1 yeah. You got magic wand, what would you
Joanne Lockwood: change? What would you what's your what would be your top priority for an
Joanne Lockwood: organization to think about around gender equity? What was your thoughts?
Valentina Jaramillo: If I if I had a magic wand. Well, I think different
Valentina Jaramillo: definitely, we there's a lot to do around,
Valentina Jaramillo: still pay equity for everyone,
Valentina Jaramillo: not just white cisgender women. But actually
Valentina Jaramillo: because if you see the numbers and differences between also white
Valentina Jaramillo: cisgender women when they will get parity to
Valentina Jaramillo: black cisgender women or
Valentina Jaramillo: or Latino cis cisgender women. The numbers are completely different.
Valentina Jaramillo: What about transgender women? What about
Valentina Jaramillo: transgender men? What about gender nonconforming people? So
Valentina Jaramillo: really, really parity and transparency of
Valentina Jaramillo: payment for everyone. Like, it it shouldn't
Valentina Jaramillo: be biased by any characteristic that
Valentina Jaramillo: is not basically talent and what you do at work. Right?
Valentina Jaramillo: Productivity. And I think there's
Valentina Jaramillo: big opportunity also in in
Valentina Jaramillo: just getting starting to gain the data. Right? So I would
Valentina Jaramillo: suggest people the same that they started to work with gender,
Valentina Jaramillo: with women equity. I
Valentina Jaramillo: would do for all other genders and starting to have this talk and
Valentina Jaramillo: invite conversation and people to to have the actual
Valentina Jaramillo: conversations. I think sometimes it's just people are afraid, again, like we
Valentina Jaramillo: mentioned before, to to be to make a mistake or
Valentina Jaramillo: to not say the correct thing. And I would just ask
Valentina Jaramillo: organizations to not be afraid to have those conversations
Valentina Jaramillo: because by talking is the only way we will learn and make an advancement.
Valentina Jaramillo: Right? If we if we decide that we need to
Valentina Jaramillo: be perfect before doing anything, we don't do anything. Right? So it's
Valentina Jaramillo: better to just start and have those conversations
Valentina Jaramillo: and and start the work even if your company don't
Valentina Jaramillo: or you are not sure if your company has a gender nonconforming
Valentina Jaramillo: person on in in your on your staff or not. That's a
Joanne Lockwood: great great proof of advice and, and grace great starting point if
Joanne Lockwood: you're not there already, so thank you. Valentina, how do people get a hold of
Joanne Lockwood: you? It's been a fascinating conversation. Yes. Thank you,
Valentina Jaramillo: Jo. So people can get a hold of me in on
Valentina Jaramillo: LinkedIn. They can find me with my name, Valentina, and my last
Valentina Jaramillo: name, Jaramillo, so altogether. And Jo
Valentina Jaramillo: that's
Valentina Jaramillo: J-A-R-A-M-I-L-L-0.
Valentina Jaramillo: And, yeah, just on LinkedIn. That's the best place to to find me.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. A fascinating conversation. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener,
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Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
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