WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:11.004 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:11.004 --> 00:00:14.844 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:14.844 --> 00:00:18.380 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the 4 00:00:18.380 --> 00:00:21.840 heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:25.980 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:29.744 world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? 7 00:00:30.045 --> 00:00:33.885 You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.885 --> 00:00:37.440 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:41.280 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:45.075 in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:45.075 --> 00:00:48.835 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.835 --> 00:00:52.090 inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.550 --> 00:00:55.590 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.590 --> 00:00:58.585 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.445 --> 00:01:03.045 to share your insights while you join me on the show. So 16 00:01:03.045 --> 00:01:06.485 adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:06.485 --> 00:01:10.130 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:12.270 --> 00:01:14.689 And today is episode 130 19 00:01:15.950 --> 00:01:19.695 with the title, from tech to d and I 20 00:01:19.695 --> 00:01:23.075 transformation. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome 21 00:01:23.375 --> 00:01:27.079 Toby Mildon. Toby is a workplace inclusion specialist. 22 00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:31.240 And when I asked Toby to describe his superpower, he said 23 00:01:31.735 --> 00:01:34.795 that he takes the scariness out of EDI 24 00:01:35.895 --> 00:01:38.635 and makes it practical and easy to implement. 25 00:01:39.430 --> 00:01:43.109 Hello, Toby. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Thanks 26 00:01:43.109 --> 00:01:46.789 for inviting me along. It's lovely to be with you today. Yeah. 27 00:01:46.789 --> 00:01:50.244 We met. I think we met many years ago at the 28 00:01:50.244 --> 00:01:54.005 National Cybersecurity Centre near Victoria in London, didn't we? No. I think that's 29 00:01:54.005 --> 00:01:57.730 first time we actually met in person. Yeah. It was donkeys years ago, 30 00:01:57.730 --> 00:02:01.410 and then I think I realized that we we're also both 31 00:02:01.410 --> 00:02:05.104 fellows of the Royal Society of Arts, so I spotted 32 00:02:05.104 --> 00:02:08.944 you on their website or that, you know, they've got a database 33 00:02:08.944 --> 00:02:12.580 don't they of of Yeah. Fellows and, yeah, and then 34 00:02:12.580 --> 00:02:16.340 we I know that we've had several cups of tea at RSA House 35 00:02:16.340 --> 00:02:19.720 in London. We have. Yeah. We have. That was 36 00:02:20.100 --> 00:02:23.925 PC, wasn't it? Pre COVID, So back in the old days. That that was 37 00:02:23.925 --> 00:02:27.605 pre COVID when it was perfectly acceptable to meet somebody for a cup of 38 00:02:27.605 --> 00:02:31.365 coffee. Yeah. It was. Now we Yeah. Now we have to socially distance 39 00:02:31.365 --> 00:02:35.130 all. We do it online or do it on Zoom. Yeah. So, Toby, 40 00:02:35.270 --> 00:02:39.110 tech to DNI transformation. Tell me more about what you do 41 00:02:39.110 --> 00:02:42.775 and how you take the scariness out of EDI. Yeah. So 42 00:02:42.775 --> 00:02:46.394 that scariness out of EDI actually was some feedback that we received 43 00:02:46.694 --> 00:02:50.500 recently from 1 of our clients. They said that 44 00:02:50.640 --> 00:02:54.400 we we take a lot of the the anxiety and the fear out 45 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.100 of talking about EDI, which we see a lot 46 00:02:58.674 --> 00:03:02.435 with senior leaders and businesses. They're they're they're worried about saying 47 00:03:02.435 --> 00:03:06.194 the wrong thing, causing offense, causing embarrassment. They're 48 00:03:06.194 --> 00:03:10.040 concerned about a cancel culture, particularly if they're a senior leader 49 00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:13.099 where they where they have got status in the organization. 50 00:03:14.200 --> 00:03:17.935 But in terms of tech to DNI transformation, I 51 00:03:17.935 --> 00:03:21.694 think it's based on my personal experience, which is 52 00:03:21.694 --> 00:03:25.510 similar to yours, really, and that when I left university, I spent 53 00:03:25.510 --> 00:03:28.650 the first half of my career working in technology 54 00:03:29.270 --> 00:03:33.065 and working on tech transformation projects. So I was 55 00:03:33.065 --> 00:03:36.585 an IT consultant for Accenture. I then moved into health care 56 00:03:36.585 --> 00:03:40.140 technology, implementing software into hospitals, and 57 00:03:40.140 --> 00:03:43.740 ended up at the BBC as a technical project manager on the 58 00:03:43.740 --> 00:03:47.260 redevelopment of the news website, the development of what is now the 59 00:03:47.260 --> 00:03:50.355 BBC Sounds app, and lots of accessibility 60 00:03:50.895 --> 00:03:54.735 projects. And then I pivoted my career when 61 00:03:54.735 --> 00:03:57.310 I was at the BBC. I mean, between you and me, I was I was 62 00:03:57.310 --> 00:04:01.150 getting a bit bored working on websites and apps, and I used to 63 00:04:01.150 --> 00:04:04.910 work really closely with the management team of our of our technology 64 00:04:04.910 --> 00:04:08.615 and engineering department. And they were concerned at the time about 65 00:04:08.615 --> 00:04:12.455 the gender imbalance that that we had in tech compared to the 66 00:04:12.455 --> 00:04:16.230 rest of the BBC where there was a a bit more of an even gender 67 00:04:16.230 --> 00:04:20.070 split. And they created a plan to get more women 68 00:04:20.070 --> 00:04:23.510 into technology, initially, and they needed a project 69 00:04:23.510 --> 00:04:27.175 manager to run that plan. And I put my hand 70 00:04:27.175 --> 00:04:30.694 up and volunteered to do that. It started off as a part 71 00:04:30.694 --> 00:04:34.500 time job, 1 day a week, and then I quickly 72 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:38.240 realized it was actually a full time occupation. There were some really valuable 73 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.775 lessons. I I quickly learned that diversity was 74 00:04:42.014 --> 00:04:45.775 was much bigger than women in engineering, that 75 00:04:45.775 --> 00:04:49.475 there are many other aspects to diversity that needed addressing 76 00:04:49.535 --> 00:04:53.220 in the corporation. And, yeah, and so that that's how 77 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:56.960 my transition happened. Yeah. I I 78 00:04:56.980 --> 00:05:00.120 had a similar epiphany. I think when I started doing this work around 79 00:05:00.875 --> 00:05:04.475 EDI, I thought it was all about me when I started, all about this 80 00:05:04.475 --> 00:05:08.095 1 sort of micro bit, and then you realize it's actually about everybody. 81 00:05:08.910 --> 00:05:12.130 And I was the phrase I always say is if everybody 82 00:05:12.509 --> 00:05:16.165 can succeed, everybody is welcome, everyone can thrive, I'm 83 00:05:16.165 --> 00:05:19.865 part of everybody. So that benefits me and people and all people. 84 00:05:20.085 --> 00:05:23.845 And we don't need to narrow it down just to 1 specific strand 85 00:05:23.845 --> 00:05:27.460 or thread or characteristic, and it's important to create the 86 00:05:27.460 --> 00:05:31.140 culture where everyone can succeed, isn't it? Yeah. I think a lot 87 00:05:31.140 --> 00:05:34.520 of organizations, though, begin with those single strands, unfortunately. 88 00:05:35.125 --> 00:05:38.805 It's 1 of the misconceptions that I think you and I need to bust in 89 00:05:38.805 --> 00:05:42.565 the work that we do. There's there seems to be this kind of 90 00:05:42.565 --> 00:05:46.140 siloed thinking or certainly a hierarchical approach to 91 00:05:46.140 --> 00:05:49.980 EDI. So a lot of organizations say, yeah. We've got an EDI 92 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:53.705 strategy. Our focus right now is on gender or 93 00:05:53.705 --> 00:05:57.465 even they might even say, well, it's women in technology or or women 94 00:05:57.465 --> 00:06:01.110 on boards. You know, they they really narrow it down, and and 95 00:06:01.110 --> 00:06:04.570 next quarter, we'll be focusing on people of an ethnic minority 96 00:06:04.630 --> 00:06:08.470 background. And then the year after next, we're going to save the whales, and 97 00:06:08.470 --> 00:06:12.065 then we may eventually get around to disability. We're not sure yet because we 98 00:06:12.225 --> 00:06:16.005 we're not sure that disability is a priority. So we have those 99 00:06:16.145 --> 00:06:19.800 kinds of conversations. And like you say, actually, inclusion is 100 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:23.640 is a lot more holistic because we are all diverse. We're 101 00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:26.940 we're we're based in the UK. We live in a very diverse country. 102 00:06:27.575 --> 00:06:31.195 Diversity exists on our doorstep. It's a conscious 103 00:06:31.255 --> 00:06:35.095 act about whether or not we allow that diversity into our 104 00:06:35.095 --> 00:06:38.710 organizations. And so, therefore, like, the work the 105 00:06:38.710 --> 00:06:42.470 conversations that I like to have with my clients is how can we shift 106 00:06:42.470 --> 00:06:46.305 towards making sure that we're creating equity? Because once 107 00:06:46.305 --> 00:06:50.145 we've created that equity, then we can make sure that we've got a quality of 108 00:06:50.145 --> 00:06:53.845 opportunity. Then we can focus on building that culture 109 00:06:53.985 --> 00:06:57.630 of respect, inclusion, and belonging. And 110 00:06:57.690 --> 00:07:01.530 at that point, we're going to be in a much better position to attract, recruit, 111 00:07:01.530 --> 00:07:05.315 and retain diverse talent in the organization, which is 112 00:07:05.315 --> 00:07:08.995 the ultimate goal for many organizations. Yeah. I think part of the problem 113 00:07:08.995 --> 00:07:12.660 sometimes is we're we're using our own biases and stereotypes 114 00:07:12.880 --> 00:07:16.720 and perceptions of people or individuals to make an 115 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:20.565 assumption around their challenge. Yeah. People 116 00:07:20.565 --> 00:07:24.324 maybe look at me and my particular identity and characteristic and make an assumption 117 00:07:24.324 --> 00:07:27.980 as to what what matters to me or what I think is important. I'm 118 00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:30.940 sure you get faced with people who look at you and say, I think I 119 00:07:30.940 --> 00:07:34.294 know what Toby's challenges are. But really beneath the surface, 120 00:07:34.915 --> 00:07:38.695 our challenges are subtly different than what people expect, aren't they? Definitely. 121 00:07:38.995 --> 00:07:42.750 I mean, people people look at me with a physical disability 122 00:07:43.130 --> 00:07:46.970 using an electric wheelchair, and, yeah, you're right. They make all sorts of 123 00:07:46.970 --> 00:07:50.795 assumptions. 1 1 of my diversity heroes is Verna 124 00:07:50.795 --> 00:07:54.475 Myers. She was 1 of the her books was 1 of the first books that 125 00:07:54.475 --> 00:07:57.935 I read when I was entering the EDI space, 126 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:02.330 and she so and if anyone doesn't know Werner, she's an American 127 00:08:02.330 --> 00:08:06.135 lawyer by background. She was until recently head of 128 00:08:06.135 --> 00:08:09.495 diversity inclusion at Netflix. She's done a couple of really good TED 129 00:08:09.495 --> 00:08:13.300 Talks. 1 of her TED Talks is called Leaning Into Our Biases, and 130 00:08:13.379 --> 00:08:16.979 in that, she says that our biases are the stories that we make up about 131 00:08:16.979 --> 00:08:20.819 people before we get to know them. And I just I I love using that 132 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:24.185 definition with clients because it's just so easy to understand. 133 00:08:24.185 --> 00:08:27.945 And what she's getting at is that you're right. It's these the 134 00:08:27.945 --> 00:08:31.540 stereotypes, the assumptions, or the presumptions that people 135 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:35.320 make about you on the surface without really getting to know 136 00:08:35.539 --> 00:08:39.205 who you really are. Yeah. I'd say 1 of the biggest terms I have 137 00:08:39.285 --> 00:08:42.905 is being left handed. You know, that excludes me for far 138 00:08:43.125 --> 00:08:46.805 more in life than being trans, you know, being left handed. You know? Yeah. I 139 00:08:46.805 --> 00:08:50.410 often talk about it. You know? You can't see that in me, but yet it's 140 00:08:50.410 --> 00:08:54.170 been a barrier all of my life. Yeah. I've had to adapt and overcome 141 00:08:54.170 --> 00:08:57.630 by being kind of ambidextrous. Yeah. I like that left handed 142 00:08:58.195 --> 00:09:01.795 example because 1 of the metaphor is it a 143 00:09:01.795 --> 00:09:05.370 metaphor that I use? It's the diversity iceberg. So you can 144 00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:09.050 see 10% of the iceberg poking above the waterline and the these are 145 00:09:09.050 --> 00:09:12.810 all visible characteristics. But 90% of the iceberg is 146 00:09:12.810 --> 00:09:16.265 hidden beneath the waterline, and these are our kind of invisible, 147 00:09:16.485 --> 00:09:20.165 non apparent characteristics, and often they're not the 148 00:09:20.165 --> 00:09:23.730 traditional types of diversity that we might think about. It's other 149 00:09:23.890 --> 00:09:27.330 like you say, it's other things like, are you left handed or right handed? The 150 00:09:27.330 --> 00:09:31.010 world has been made mostly for right handed people, so 151 00:09:31.010 --> 00:09:34.785 there's a bias there in terms of right handedness, but it could all be other 152 00:09:34.785 --> 00:09:38.065 things. Are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Did you grow up in the 153 00:09:38.065 --> 00:09:41.639 countryside or in the middle of the city? These you know, all of these 154 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.019 things shape our outlook on life, our experiences, 155 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:49.015 and and things like that. Yeah. I think what you've you picked 156 00:09:49.015 --> 00:09:52.455 up on there is if do you fall into the default, yeah, in 157 00:09:52.455 --> 00:09:56.215 people's blinkers, in people's mindsets? You know? I'm 158 00:09:56.215 --> 00:09:59.770 in a arguably, a same sex relationship. It's almost impossible to 159 00:09:59.770 --> 00:10:03.530 find mainstream greetings cards from Sainsbury's or, you 160 00:10:03.530 --> 00:10:06.195 know, Clinton's or something like that. You walk in and say, I wanna find a 161 00:10:06.195 --> 00:10:09.795 a card for my wife on Valentine's or for her birthday. And it's 162 00:10:09.795 --> 00:10:13.290 all cishetronormative imagery. I've got a 163 00:10:13.290 --> 00:10:16.970 friend who is is black, and he finds it extremely difficult to 164 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:20.810 find Christmas cards or greetings cards with black representation on it. It's 165 00:10:20.810 --> 00:10:24.475 all white imagery, and you think it's these little things where you're you 166 00:10:24.475 --> 00:10:27.755 don't fit into that default category. And I'm not gonna use the word normal. It's 167 00:10:27.755 --> 00:10:31.070 just the default in people's heads that you become unconsciously 168 00:10:31.370 --> 00:10:34.829 excluded when people aren't thinking about your need. Yeah. And 169 00:10:35.610 --> 00:10:39.070 that that those are really good examples of how 170 00:10:39.615 --> 00:10:43.455 products have been designed out of bias. So 171 00:10:43.455 --> 00:10:47.230 the people that are designing those greeting cards have 172 00:10:47.230 --> 00:10:50.450 their own innate biases and they're just not thinking 173 00:10:50.590 --> 00:10:54.350 about the diverse representation of characters on 174 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:58.074 greetings cards, and we see it everywhere. We see it in TV 175 00:10:58.074 --> 00:10:59.774 programs, film, books. 176 00:11:01.755 --> 00:11:04.815 A tiny proportion of children's 177 00:11:05.980 --> 00:11:09.440 books include disabled characters 178 00:11:10.060 --> 00:11:13.360 or characters who are are not white, basically. 179 00:11:15.134 --> 00:11:18.975 And if you're a kid and you're reading these books, it's sending you a 180 00:11:18.975 --> 00:11:22.654 message that it is kind of creating the uttering message. It's 181 00:11:22.654 --> 00:11:26.330 it's saying you you're different. And 182 00:11:26.410 --> 00:11:30.250 yeah. Yeah. And, was it somebody said to me the other day, there's a famous 183 00:11:30.250 --> 00:11:33.825 quote, you can't be what you can't see, and that's why 184 00:11:33.825 --> 00:11:37.425 it's important that we make sure that we've got 185 00:11:37.425 --> 00:11:40.850 diversity in organizations. Because if you, you know, if you if you're 186 00:11:40.850 --> 00:11:44.610 aspiring to get to the top of your industry or the top of your 187 00:11:44.610 --> 00:11:48.334 company, if you don't have those rumble, you you 188 00:11:48.334 --> 00:11:52.175 you can't be what you can't see. Yeah. And that feeds 189 00:11:52.175 --> 00:11:56.009 into sort of like the, the environmental class 190 00:11:56.009 --> 00:11:59.769 of microaggression where you don't see yourself represented in the 191 00:11:59.769 --> 00:12:03.385 media, in imagery, in the world. Therefore, 192 00:12:03.385 --> 00:12:06.745 you're constantly oppressed by being an 193 00:12:06.745 --> 00:12:10.105 outsider or other, aren't you? Yeah. And and you start to 194 00:12:10.105 --> 00:12:13.520 internalize those biases. So when I did my first 195 00:12:13.540 --> 00:12:17.160 unconscious bias training when I was working at the BBC as as a participant, 196 00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:21.355 not not as a trainer, I I did the Harvard Implicit 197 00:12:21.355 --> 00:12:25.195 Association test, and I found out that I was mildly biased 198 00:12:25.195 --> 00:12:28.335 against disabled people, which I was 199 00:12:28.790 --> 00:12:32.410 shocked about initially. And then when I started 200 00:12:32.550 --> 00:12:36.230 looking into why I had this bias, I could 201 00:12:36.230 --> 00:12:40.065 understand my own internalised ableism because 202 00:12:40.065 --> 00:12:42.565 I've grown up in a world that's been designed 203 00:12:43.825 --> 00:12:47.670 largely by non disabled people. As a disabled peers person, I've 204 00:12:47.670 --> 00:12:51.510 had to kind of fit into that mold. And growing up, there was 205 00:12:51.510 --> 00:12:55.305 just a lack of visible disabled role models 206 00:12:55.305 --> 00:12:58.745 in high up in business, in politics, in 207 00:12:58.745 --> 00:13:01.960 education, in the film, TV, 208 00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:06.020 books that I read. When I worked for the BBC, 209 00:13:06.020 --> 00:13:09.585 we we did some research, and we found out that 210 00:13:09.585 --> 00:13:13.105 disabled people were more likely to be portrayed as 211 00:13:13.105 --> 00:13:16.945 villains, victims, and heroes than non disabled people. So 212 00:13:16.945 --> 00:13:20.699 I grew up thinking that disabled people would either 213 00:13:20.699 --> 00:13:24.540 become a a Paralympic hero, a James Bond villain because most of 214 00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:28.365 them have a disability or or it's some form of disfigurement or 215 00:13:28.365 --> 00:13:32.204 a benefit cheat because those were the messages that the British 216 00:13:32.204 --> 00:13:35.884 media were putting out into society, and 217 00:13:35.884 --> 00:13:39.370 and these messages then enter the back of your brain as this 218 00:13:39.370 --> 00:13:42.990 secret silent script, which then influences 219 00:13:43.130 --> 00:13:46.755 how you interact with people in adult life. 220 00:13:47.055 --> 00:13:50.655 In my case, it it means that I've got this mild bias 221 00:13:50.655 --> 00:13:54.199 against disabled people. It's interesting you mentioned James Bond. I I 222 00:13:54.199 --> 00:13:57.959 often use the James Bond analogy in in all my train that I 223 00:13:57.959 --> 00:14:01.685 deliver, and it is. You know? We we define James Bond, 224 00:14:01.685 --> 00:14:05.385 the character, as good, ideal, protector, 225 00:14:05.765 --> 00:14:09.225 white male, straight, womanizer, hero, 226 00:14:10.449 --> 00:14:13.430 perfect body figure, and then he's a the baddie 227 00:14:14.129 --> 00:14:17.970 always has some kind of disability or facial disfigurement or a 228 00:14:17.970 --> 00:14:21.795 foreign accent or what all these stereotypes kick in. This is 229 00:14:21.795 --> 00:14:25.315 good. This is bad. And it's no wonder. And then we we did the same 230 00:14:25.315 --> 00:14:29.000 with Disney and female and young women portrayal. 231 00:14:29.540 --> 00:14:32.500 This is good. This is bad. This is how women behave. This is how men 232 00:14:32.500 --> 00:14:36.154 behave. And we get bombarded with this all the time, don't we? Yeah. We 233 00:14:36.154 --> 00:14:39.675 do. We do. And and it shapes it shapes our 234 00:14:39.675 --> 00:14:43.140 biases, and our 235 00:14:43.140 --> 00:14:46.820 biases are formed through the cultures that we grow up 236 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:49.935 in the grow up in and the experiences that we have, 237 00:14:50.495 --> 00:14:54.255 and it affects us on 3 levels. It affects us 238 00:14:54.255 --> 00:14:58.035 in how we think and how we feel and how we act, 239 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:02.120 and it's a lot harder for us to change the way that we 240 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:05.579 think. So our focus really needs to be on 241 00:15:06.045 --> 00:15:09.885 how we act and and to change our behaviors to be more We've 242 00:15:09.885 --> 00:15:13.725 seen a a lot. I'd say the last 18 months, I've 243 00:15:13.725 --> 00:15:17.500 seen it a lot more. There seems to be this pushback against 244 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:21.640 wokeism for whatever that may mean. Yeah. It's almost 245 00:15:21.640 --> 00:15:24.835 like people who have been marginalized for generations 246 00:15:25.615 --> 00:15:29.455 have finally started to achieve equity in society, in 247 00:15:29.455 --> 00:15:33.240 the workplace, and their lives. And now people are saying, hang 248 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:36.840 on. We've gone too far. What about me? What about what about me, the 249 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.460 able-bodied white person? I'm being left behind. Yeah. And 250 00:15:40.704 --> 00:15:44.005 we're getting this pushback because it's threatening 251 00:15:44.464 --> 00:15:48.305 to them. There's a lot of people who think that if they don't 252 00:15:48.305 --> 00:15:51.810 tick I'll be quite blunt with you, you know, if they if they don't tick 253 00:15:51.810 --> 00:15:55.570 a diversity box or boxes, that they 254 00:15:55.570 --> 00:15:59.345 will be at a disadvantage, that somebody will overtake them 255 00:15:59.345 --> 00:16:02.404 in their career. That's not what we're trying to 256 00:16:02.945 --> 00:16:06.750 accomplish as as, you know, as per as 257 00:16:06.750 --> 00:16:10.190 the professionals that you and I are. I think we're we're on a 258 00:16:10.190 --> 00:16:14.035 mission to create more equity in society. And what do we 259 00:16:14.035 --> 00:16:17.015 mean by equity? It's about seeing the individual, 260 00:16:18.115 --> 00:16:21.880 understanding what disadvantages they do have, and 261 00:16:21.880 --> 00:16:25.560 trying to close the gap so that we do create that equality. Because we 262 00:16:25.560 --> 00:16:29.105 we don't we don't have equality out of the box, unfortunately. 263 00:16:29.325 --> 00:16:33.165 You know, we live in a society where there isn't equality, so we 264 00:16:33.165 --> 00:16:36.705 need to focus on closing the gap. And that that means starting with equity 265 00:16:37.170 --> 00:16:40.390 and giving people the resources and the support that they need 266 00:16:40.930 --> 00:16:44.595 to actually help them compete on a level playing field because we 267 00:16:44.675 --> 00:16:48.195 we're not competing on a level playing field at the moment. Oh, this is also 268 00:16:48.195 --> 00:16:51.875 this myth of meritocracy, isn't it? And I again, to to quote 269 00:16:51.875 --> 00:16:55.530 some government rhetoric, and I've heard it from 270 00:16:55.990 --> 00:16:59.690 the the new government before they got in and the old government in the UK. 271 00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:03.455 Because we're this episode recorded just just post the general election. 272 00:17:03.595 --> 00:17:07.355 Where's this is this belief or that this mantra around they 273 00:17:07.355 --> 00:17:10.795 wanna promote and support hardworking family? What is a 274 00:17:10.795 --> 00:17:14.359 hardworking family? I mean, we we that that's laser with 275 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:18.039 bias and meritocracy and stereotyping and 276 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.365 trying to create pictures in people head of what a not hardworking 277 00:17:21.585 --> 00:17:25.345 family is, a family that wants to work, but calm, or whatever it may 278 00:17:25.345 --> 00:17:28.980 be. Yeah. So it's meritocracy, belief, and myth is is 279 00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:32.740 rampant in all areas of society. It is. It is. And 280 00:17:32.740 --> 00:17:36.360 there's a lot of organizations that say, well, we have a culture 281 00:17:37.060 --> 00:17:40.725 of meritocracy. That kind kind of comment 282 00:17:40.725 --> 00:17:44.025 usually comes from the in group or the majority group 283 00:17:44.645 --> 00:17:47.945 who do believe that there is meritocracy because their experience 284 00:17:48.570 --> 00:17:52.409 is that there's fairness, that there's equality, that the best 285 00:17:52.409 --> 00:17:56.169 person gets the job. But what they don't understand or they I 286 00:17:56.169 --> 00:17:59.654 I just don't think it's in that kind of sphere of awareness yet. 287 00:17:59.955 --> 00:18:03.015 This, you know, this is a lot about the work that you and I do 288 00:18:03.315 --> 00:18:06.674 is that there are people in an organization that don't share that same 289 00:18:06.674 --> 00:18:10.130 experience, that don't have the same type of 290 00:18:10.130 --> 00:18:13.809 privileges that the in group has 291 00:18:13.809 --> 00:18:17.425 had, whether that's access to education, speaking 292 00:18:17.425 --> 00:18:21.265 English as a first language. There's a whole number of privileges that 293 00:18:21.265 --> 00:18:24.950 we hold that that, yeah, that create that. And I think talking about 294 00:18:24.950 --> 00:18:28.310 privilege, a lot of people get quite defensive about it as a 295 00:18:28.310 --> 00:18:32.085 topic because a lot of people think, well, you know, I had to 296 00:18:32.085 --> 00:18:35.684 work really hard to get to where I am now to my 297 00:18:35.684 --> 00:18:39.365 position in the company. And thing is nobody's disputing 298 00:18:39.365 --> 00:18:42.790 that. You you you did work hard to get to your current 299 00:18:42.790 --> 00:18:46.170 position. The thing is there's about it's about having an understanding 300 00:18:46.310 --> 00:18:50.105 that not everyone was gifted with certain things 301 00:18:50.105 --> 00:18:53.804 in life that helped accelerate that journey. 302 00:18:54.460 --> 00:18:58.220 So I'll just give you a personal example. Like, I've got somebody 303 00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:01.200 on my team who's got the same disability as me. 304 00:19:02.335 --> 00:19:05.315 Thing is I grew up in the UK. He grew up in South Africa. 305 00:19:05.855 --> 00:19:09.455 And my privileges are that I grew up in the UK where 306 00:19:09.455 --> 00:19:12.860 English is my first language, where I have access to free health 307 00:19:12.860 --> 00:19:16.620 care, access to free education. The NHS has saved my 308 00:19:16.620 --> 00:19:20.255 life for more than 1 occasion, and the health care that I've received from 309 00:19:20.255 --> 00:19:24.015 the NHS has enabled me to go off to university and get 310 00:19:24.015 --> 00:19:27.809 good jobs and things like that. Whereas my colleague growing up in South Africa 311 00:19:28.350 --> 00:19:32.190 didn't have the same access to education as I had. He didn't 312 00:19:32.190 --> 00:19:36.005 have the same level of qualifications, which held him back. It meant that he 313 00:19:36.005 --> 00:19:39.845 wasn't able to access employment, didn't have access to the same 314 00:19:39.845 --> 00:19:43.670 type of health care as well because they have an insurance system over in 315 00:19:43.670 --> 00:19:47.210 South Africa. It's very expensive to have the spinal surgery 316 00:19:47.350 --> 00:19:50.885 that that we've both had. So 317 00:19:51.025 --> 00:19:54.065 just the very fact that I was born in the UK, which I had no 318 00:19:54.065 --> 00:19:57.640 choice over, that was outside of my control, has actually 319 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.420 afforded me many advantages that have effectively 320 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:05.480 given me a leg up in life. And that's what we when 321 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.095 we talk about privileges privilege, that's what we're really talking about here. 322 00:20:09.155 --> 00:20:12.375 It's about the the gifts that you've been given 323 00:20:12.995 --> 00:20:16.510 that help you that help give you a leg up. Yeah. I I 324 00:20:16.510 --> 00:20:19.650 often talk about privilege being a bit like a pension fund. 325 00:20:20.590 --> 00:20:24.350 The earlier you've paid into it, the more it's worth as you go 326 00:20:24.350 --> 00:20:28.115 through life. And your friend, his pension pot didn't 327 00:20:28.115 --> 00:20:31.894 start accruing value until maybe his thirties, 328 00:20:32.034 --> 00:20:35.750 twenties thirties. Your privilege meant that you were 329 00:20:35.750 --> 00:20:39.530 depositing into your pension fund from from year 1. 330 00:20:39.990 --> 00:20:43.450 So therefore, no matter how much this person now has 331 00:20:43.705 --> 00:20:47.545 some of the privileges of society, you will never catch 332 00:20:47.545 --> 00:20:50.985 up or they'll never catch up to you because you paid in 30 years earlier, 333 00:20:50.985 --> 00:20:54.810 and you'll you've accrued more privilege as a result of that. 334 00:20:54.810 --> 00:20:58.170 And I think that's what we've got to remember is that, also, privilege is not 335 00:20:58.170 --> 00:21:01.475 around that you can't succeed. It's just 336 00:21:02.115 --> 00:21:05.895 harder to succeed because of and part of your identity 337 00:21:05.955 --> 00:21:09.794 or upbringing or characteristic. Yeah. I I'm yeah. I really like the 338 00:21:09.794 --> 00:21:13.460 way that you put it. If it's okay with you, I'll I'll pinch that and 339 00:21:13.460 --> 00:21:17.299 use that with some of the conversations that I have with with companies. Feel 340 00:21:17.299 --> 00:21:20.875 free. No. I I mean, quote me all you like. I'm happy to be quoted. 341 00:21:20.875 --> 00:21:24.315 So yeah. But, yeah, it it is. It's it's that's the challenge. I you know, 342 00:21:24.315 --> 00:21:28.050 III saw something once at someone else's quirk. I remember who it 343 00:21:28.050 --> 00:21:31.030 is now. That when you're used to privilege, 344 00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:35.625 equality feels like oppression. And I think that backs up what you were saying where 345 00:21:35.625 --> 00:21:39.465 people are so used to breathing in the air around them. They don't see 346 00:21:39.465 --> 00:21:43.190 how smoggy it is a mile away or when 347 00:21:43.190 --> 00:21:46.870 they're looking down. And I saw another great analogy where it's a 348 00:21:46.870 --> 00:21:50.010 it's a it's a if it's a it's a it's a terrain map. 349 00:21:51.105 --> 00:21:54.725 People with privilege are on top of the mountain looking down. 350 00:21:55.024 --> 00:21:58.544 Everything looks a very short, small distance. When you're at the bottom of the mountain 351 00:21:58.544 --> 00:22:01.490 looking up, everything is enormous. The valleys, 352 00:22:02.590 --> 00:22:06.350 the the navigation between 2 points is is extreme, whereas you when 353 00:22:06.350 --> 00:22:10.164 you're at the top, it looks like 1 step across. So, again, it's your 354 00:22:10.164 --> 00:22:13.845 perspective on your environment also. Is 355 00:22:13.845 --> 00:22:17.120 is it impacted by by your privilege and and your your 356 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.760 your your status in society? Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. But you mentioned right 357 00:22:21.760 --> 00:22:25.605 at the beginning around this fear of getting it wrong, 358 00:22:25.684 --> 00:22:29.385 this saying doing the wrong thing, and it creates this paralysis. 359 00:22:29.845 --> 00:22:33.684 And, you know, I when I do surveys in my training and my 360 00:22:33.684 --> 00:22:37.380 speaking sessions, 1 of the biggest barriers is the fear of getting it 361 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:41.060 wrong, and you you highlighted there as something you've observed. What what do you think 362 00:22:41.060 --> 00:22:44.885 causes the fear, and what do you think we can do to Yeah. 363 00:22:45.044 --> 00:22:48.745 Take the scariness out of EDI, if you like? So a lot of the fear 364 00:22:49.605 --> 00:22:53.440 of getting it wrong is damage to, I think, your reputation, 365 00:22:54.300 --> 00:22:58.060 particularly with senior leaders. I've talked to a lot of senior leaders, I think, 366 00:22:58.060 --> 00:23:00.560 where they're suffering from imposter syndrome. 367 00:23:01.274 --> 00:23:04.654 III was working with a Fintech organization, and 368 00:23:05.274 --> 00:23:08.635 we do a lot of EDI surveys, you know, where we go in and we 369 00:23:08.635 --> 00:23:12.470 we ask employees how they feel in the business, whether they feel like 370 00:23:12.470 --> 00:23:15.590 they're included or and whether they feel like they're included or that they belong or 371 00:23:15.590 --> 00:23:19.325 not. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the 372 00:23:19.325 --> 00:23:23.105 majority of people in the organization, regardless of identity, 373 00:23:23.405 --> 00:23:26.610 said that they felt that they did belong in the in the organization 374 00:23:27.390 --> 00:23:30.850 with the exception of LGBT colleagues. 375 00:23:31.390 --> 00:23:34.895 And so we we took that that information back to 1 of the 376 00:23:34.895 --> 00:23:38.495 company directors, and he said to me, that's 377 00:23:38.495 --> 00:23:42.275 really interesting, but but who am I as a straight bloke 378 00:23:42.630 --> 00:23:46.150 to be talking about LGBT matters in the in the 379 00:23:46.150 --> 00:23:49.690 organization? So he didn't understand his role in it 380 00:23:51.030 --> 00:23:54.835 and then after a conversation, he did understand the importance 381 00:23:55.055 --> 00:23:58.275 of supporting and being an ally for LGBT stuff 382 00:23:58.975 --> 00:24:02.770 even though he didn't identify as being LGBT himself. He, you know, he I 383 00:24:02.770 --> 00:24:05.990 think there was a lot of fear about not understanding 384 00:24:07.250 --> 00:24:10.725 LGBT matters using the right 385 00:24:10.725 --> 00:24:14.565 language or the wrong language, that kind of thing. But after a conversation 386 00:24:14.565 --> 00:24:17.970 with us, he did understand the importance because as as a company 387 00:24:17.970 --> 00:24:21.330 director, he he's response helping to create the right culture in the 388 00:24:21.330 --> 00:24:24.930 business and and and making LGBT staff feel like 389 00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:28.655 they they belong. I think also in it's it's recognising how you can 390 00:24:28.655 --> 00:24:31.855 use your privilege, isn't it? And I think that's what people are scared of. The 391 00:24:31.855 --> 00:24:35.235 example I always use is the men allowed women to vote, 392 00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:39.380 And that sounds quite provocative and offensive if I say that. 393 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:43.760 But that that was a reality in 1918. Men held all the seats 394 00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:47.215 in parliament. Yeah. Men were the only people that could vote, 395 00:24:47.755 --> 00:24:51.355 and it took an act of parliament by men, okay, with 396 00:24:51.355 --> 00:24:55.150 pressure from suffragettes and women's movements to change the 397 00:24:55.150 --> 00:24:58.830 law. So privilege has to open the door. So men 398 00:24:58.830 --> 00:25:02.670 have to men have to tackle sexism. Able body people have 399 00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:06.115 to tackle ableism. Straight people have to tackle 400 00:25:06.174 --> 00:25:09.075 homophobia or or or transphobia or biphobia. 401 00:25:10.015 --> 00:25:13.670