Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your
Joanne Lockwood: sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into
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Joanne Lockwood: world where everyone not only belongs but thrives?
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Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 132 with
Joanne Lockwood: the title, inclusivity in the digital
Joanne Lockwood: age. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to
Joanne Lockwood: welcome Luke Morrison. Luke is a technology
Joanne Lockwood: and digital recruitment specialist. And when I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Luke to describe his superpower, he said, it is his
Joanne Lockwood: resilience and transformative ability to turn
Joanne Lockwood: personal challenges into empowering opportunities.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Luke. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you
Luke Morrisen: very much for having me. What an intro.
Joanne Lockwood: We're just looking forward to this because, we've been chatting with the green room and
Joanne Lockwood: it's you've got a fantastic story, and I can't wait to
Joanne Lockwood: hear it myself in detail and also for our guest as well. So,
Joanne Lockwood: Luke, Inclusivity in the Digital Age.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell me more. Sure. So I guess it really
Luke Morrisen: just comes down to a bit of my backstory and kind of
Luke Morrisen: what happened when I was younger growing up and and the life that I led
Luke Morrisen: and moving into the world of recruitment and being a father.
Luke Morrisen: So is there's lots to it. There's lots of moving parts, and
Luke Morrisen: I've kind of feel the journey of
Luke Morrisen: being at school was was not great for me. The challenges I had,
Luke Morrisen: not understanding myself truly and deeply to
Luke Morrisen: then working my way up into lots of different roles
Luke Morrisen: outside of recruitment, becoming a father, having a son who's
Luke Morrisen: neurodiverse, having a daughter. Kind of now, I'm at
Luke Morrisen: this point in my life where I want to learn more and I want to
Luke Morrisen: give back to the community out there. And I I guess for me, the
Luke Morrisen: biggest part is is learning myself and learning on this journey, but also
Luke Morrisen: helping people like I'm helping my children at the moment understand
Luke Morrisen: who they are and how they can progress themselves and how they cannot
Luke Morrisen: have limiting beliefs really. But you're one of those children who are
Joanne Lockwood: messing around and not learning and in the in the bottom
Joanne Lockwood: set put in the sort of the no hope of class. Was that
Joanne Lockwood: was that you, was it? Absolutely. Unfortunately, yeah, it was.
Luke Morrisen: In in all honesty, I was I was never very good at
Luke Morrisen: school. It's not the environment that I learned well in. Sat sat
Luke Morrisen: down, being spoken to for an hour, then moving on to the next
Luke Morrisen: class, being spoken to about stuff that really didn't
Luke Morrisen: engage me was not the right environment for me to learn. And like many
Luke Morrisen: people, my wife is complete opposite. She loves learning in that
Luke Morrisen: environment. My daughter's the same. But me and my son, we are very
Luke Morrisen: similar where we would get distracted,
Luke Morrisen: disruptive, need to need to just set ourselves out of an
Luke Morrisen: environment. And, yeah, unfortunately, I was the kid that
Luke Morrisen: didn't learn well at school, didn't get any of my GCSEs,
Luke Morrisen: not for not for not wanting them. I definitely wanted to do well at school,
Luke Morrisen: and I never bunked off school like I was always present, but
Luke Morrisen: I just I just couldn't it wasn't the right environment for me to excel
Luke Morrisen: in, and I've seen a lot in that in my son's journey and and it's
Luke Morrisen: it's something that I've become quite aware of now. But do was
Joanne Lockwood: there a particular age that you discovered this or was it
Joanne Lockwood: right from infant school, if you like, year 1? Age
Luke Morrisen: of discovering that school wasn't the right environment for me. Yeah. Yeah. At what
Joanne Lockwood: point did you realize that you you just couldn't learn in
Joanne Lockwood: in a traditional or contemporary way at at school, the same
Joanne Lockwood: way that all your children I I know this sounds a bit odd, but I
Luke Morrisen: think I actually think it was probably probably my
Luke Morrisen: late twenties that I found I realized that. I know that sounds a bit strange.
Luke Morrisen: I I always thought, and I'll be completely honest, I I thought that I
Luke Morrisen: was really stupid, really dumb because I didn't do
Luke Morrisen: well at school. I'd never do well in my career as I got older.
Luke Morrisen: So I I left school with no g s no
Luke Morrisen: GCSEs. I didn't go into upper education. I went
Luke Morrisen: straight into a building site, working on-site,
Luke Morrisen: worked as a roofer, as a landscaper, as a tree surgeon. And it
Luke Morrisen: wasn't until I had my children where I thought, right, I need to be a
Luke Morrisen: provider, and I want I want something different for my family now. So that's
Luke Morrisen: kind of where I started exploring other avenues and after a few years,
Luke Morrisen: got into recruitment. And it wasn't until I was in my late
Luke Morrisen: twenties where I thought, actually, I'm not stupid. I
Luke Morrisen: it okay. I learn in a different way and I'll and I have to be
Luke Morrisen: a hands on practical or a visual learner, but it doesn't mean that I'm
Luke Morrisen: stupid. And then when my son was born and as he got older, I
Luke Morrisen: started seeing similar traits as to it was like a mini me. I mean,
Luke Morrisen: he looks just like me. He acts just like me. And it's kinda I
Luke Morrisen: kinda realized again, he's not a bad kid at
Luke Morrisen: all. He just struggles to learn in that environment. And it kind of solidified
Luke Morrisen: exactly how I felt when I first discovered that in my twenties.
Luke Morrisen: And it kind of kicked off from there, really, and that's kind of set me
Luke Morrisen: on this this new journey and the trajectory of supporting
Luke Morrisen: people that are struggling and helping helping
Luke Morrisen: people become aware of the differences in how they
Luke Morrisen: learn and how they interact with people. And it it doesn't you shouldn't just label
Luke Morrisen: them straight away. Look, you know, you you can't sit and you
Luke Morrisen: can't do this this written test within an hour. So you're
Luke Morrisen: branded as dumb. That's kinda how I felt when I was younger. But now
Luke Morrisen: I realize that I can do it. I just need to do it in a
Luke Morrisen: different way, and it's exactly how my son learns as well. Yeah. We went
Joanne Lockwood: through a journey with Arslan now discovering that, he has a form of
Joanne Lockwood: dyslexia and some other complications within that kind of reading
Joanne Lockwood: and processing ability. So, yeah, we we discovered that probably
Joanne Lockwood: when he was about 10 or 11, but having spent many
Joanne Lockwood: years trying to get him to learn to read and not
Joanne Lockwood: having much luck and eventually getting diagnosed. And,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, he was at private school at the time, and the private school basically sort
Joanne Lockwood: of said to us that they they weren't the best place for him. I think
Joanne Lockwood: they were worried it was gonna bring their grade average down if he wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: able to pass his exam. So we ended up pulling them both out of school,
Joanne Lockwood: both our children. But, yeah, it it's it's quite a stressful time as a parent,
Joanne Lockwood: feeling like your your child isn't isn't responding
Joanne Lockwood: in in a way you hope they would. Yeah. Yeah. And that we I mean,
Luke Morrisen: the the educational system at the moment, I feel is is struggling
Luke Morrisen: in that sense. My my son was at a school before he
Luke Morrisen: moved and he liked the people there, kind of
Luke Morrisen: got in with the wrong crowd similar to when I was younger, which then
Luke Morrisen: just had a bit of a snowball effect onto his behavior and his
Luke Morrisen: learning abilities and his contributions to class.
Luke Morrisen: And my wife's been battling we've been battling with the council,
Luke Morrisen: the West Birch Council, to try and get him EHCP,
Luke Morrisen: try and get on board with SENCO and try and get him some extra help
Luke Morrisen: here inside of school, which is it's actually shocking
Luke Morrisen: how much of a challenge that's been. It's been really draining on my wife. I
Luke Morrisen: mean, it's a lot of admin, so I'm not very good on the admin side.
Luke Morrisen: So it's the role that she's taken with this. And it's just quite baffling
Luke Morrisen: how hard it is to get somebody that really needs to support. And,
Luke Morrisen: unfortunately, it comes down to budget at the end of the day. And for
Luke Morrisen: and I understand it, but it's when it's when you're in that
Luke Morrisen: position and it's your child, it's so frustrating to know that the
Luke Morrisen: needs of your child aren't being met just because of a budget. So, yeah,
Luke Morrisen: we've we've been through a big ordeal with that. Fortunately, he's moved schools
Luke Morrisen: and he's been given the grant that he needs for the extra support
Luke Morrisen: and the extra help within school and within the education, and
Luke Morrisen: he's absolutely flying now. I mean, he he's loving it and he's getting
Luke Morrisen: grades that he'd never thought he could have achieved without that extra
Luke Morrisen: bit of support and it kind of it resonates with me and when I was
Luke Morrisen: younger because I never had that support, you know, neurodiversity,
Luke Morrisen: ADHD, I haven't been formally assessed because I'm
Luke Morrisen: on the waiting list for that. But every test that we've done for
Luke Morrisen: my son and submitted, my wife's gone, Luke, that's you. That's you.
Luke Morrisen: That's you. That's you. I mean, me and my wife's been together 18 years. She
Luke Morrisen: knows me better than anyone. So back then, I thought I was just really
Luke Morrisen: disruptive and I was thick and I would never amount to doing anything
Luke Morrisen: special in a career. And now I see my son going through that, and it's
Luke Morrisen: just given me a hope now that he's not gonna have that limiting
Luke Morrisen: belief. He knows that his environment needs to be right for him to
Luke Morrisen: excel. Quite common, from what I understand, for people
Joanne Lockwood: to realize something about themselves when they're helping
Joanne Lockwood: their children through it. That's I've you're not the 1st person to mention that to
Joanne Lockwood: me. It's it's kind of it's a way of getting the diagnosis without
Joanne Lockwood: getting a diagnosis. You Yeah. You just go hang on a minute. That's me as
Joanne Lockwood: well. Yeah. I guess I guess you see so many similarities in your children and
Luke Morrisen: yourselves. You bring them up how you've been brought up and you raise
Luke Morrisen: them with the same morals and values as yourself. So, I mean, it's
Luke Morrisen: easy because he looks like a mini me. It's I was just almost like looking
Luke Morrisen: at a younger version of me. But, yeah, I I I see it so much.
Luke Morrisen: My daughter is very much like my wife. She's very academically switched on.
Luke Morrisen: She finds it extremely easy to to learn in a in a
Luke Morrisen: school setting. I mean, if you look around my house at the moment, she's she
Luke Morrisen: actually wants to be a teacher, and she's got she does mini virtual
Luke Morrisen: classes to a fake audience, you know, she's 10 nearly 11
Luke Morrisen: years old and that's that's who she is and that's how how
Luke Morrisen: she wants to progress her career and that's what she wants to do when she's
Luke Morrisen: older, which is great. It's very much like my wife. So we see very
Luke Morrisen: similar traits in both my son and and my
Luke Morrisen: daughter. Oh, that's fantastic. I I love that. So you you left
Joanne Lockwood: school Mhmm. As you said, without any qualifications as
Joanne Lockwood: such. Yeah. Or not ones you were proud of. What
Joanne Lockwood: happened then? You you you'd say you went to the building site. You started
Joanne Lockwood: doing stuff. Yeah. So I I actually left home at 15.
Luke Morrisen: So right just just before my exams and
Luke Morrisen: GCSEs were kicking off, I left home. I was kind of raised on
Luke Morrisen: farms when I was younger. It was it was hard graft as as a child.
Luke Morrisen: I mean, looking back, it's a fantastic life to live, but when you're in it
Luke Morrisen: and you're a teenager and you've made loads of friends at school and they're
Luke Morrisen: all going out seeing their friends and kind of building that friendship
Luke Morrisen: circle when I'm on the farm working and supporting my parents, well,
Luke Morrisen: my my mom, it's it's quite challenging. And I
Luke Morrisen: I sort of kicked off a bit, and I needed to get out. And so
Luke Morrisen: I left home at 15, sofa surf for a little bit.
Luke Morrisen: I ended up my mom doesn't actually know this, but I ended up living on
Luke Morrisen: the streets for a for a couple of weeks while I was trying to find
Luke Morrisen: somewhere to live. So, you know, I lived a bit of a life
Luke Morrisen: up until finding I actually found music at the
Luke Morrisen: age of 17. Moved to Swindon, I was working
Luke Morrisen: as a roofer, and I was DJing at the weekends and in the
Luke Morrisen: evenings, and that was kind of a bit of a self discovery mode. I've I've
Luke Morrisen: made quite a lot of friends that are older. My par girlfriend at the time
Luke Morrisen: was nearly double my age. So I kind of started learning
Luke Morrisen: from others and seeing how they were kicking on with their career and what they
Luke Morrisen: were doing. It was all quite inspiring. And then I met my wife,
Luke Morrisen: I was 8 18, 19, moved back to Newbury,
Luke Morrisen: where I live, and kind of realized then that
Luke Morrisen: me and my wife were getting quite serious at the time. We then had Frankie,
Luke Morrisen: my oldest, and that's when I realized that I couldn't
Luke Morrisen: I I wasn't where I wanted to be at that point. I wanted to be
Luke Morrisen: a lot further on to support. We didn't have a house or mortgage or anything
Luke Morrisen: like that. So that's kind of what led me into recruitment.
Luke Morrisen: I worked at the BBC for a for a IT cleaning company,
Luke Morrisen: started doing some business development for that business on the side, was engaging with the
Luke Morrisen: likes of ITV. And I was like, wow, this is this is cool. Well, I
Luke Morrisen: enjoy that. I enjoy this side. This is something I never knew I could do.
Luke Morrisen: And then I got a job in in recruitment, and it kind of kicked on
Luke Morrisen: from there. And that's when I started to really believe in myself and believe
Luke Morrisen: that I can achieve pretty much what what I put my mind
Luke Morrisen: to. Recruitment is quite a cutthroat business, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? It's salesy, quite disciplined. So you are
Joanne Lockwood: you are able to adapt to that environment quite quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Because
Luke Morrisen: it's a structure that I excel in. I excel in
Luke Morrisen: I excel in having a day plan and I excel in a real structured
Luke Morrisen: day. Call in the morning, I'm doing this. I know I need to speak to
Luke Morrisen: these candidates, update them on their situation, then I can move on to the client
Luke Morrisen: work. And there's KPIs and numbers to hit. I'm quite numbers driven.
Luke Morrisen: So it was an environment that worked really, really well for me. A lot a
Luke Morrisen: lot of people it doesn't work for, and that's not an environment that
Luke Morrisen: best suited to them. But for me in particular, I was the more I was
Luke Morrisen: doing it, I was getting really quick wins. I got
Luke Morrisen: MVP of the year in in the first recruitment business I worked in. I
Luke Morrisen: became top contract biller and I just it just fueled my
Luke Morrisen: confidence. And it was it's it's everything that I need
Luke Morrisen: in a career to excel. So that's when I
Luke Morrisen: then moved into another business. I became a a leader within that company,
Luke Morrisen: and after 4 and a 4 and a half years, I thought of
Luke Morrisen: of working within that role, I thought, actually, I need something for myself now. I
Luke Morrisen: understand recruitment. I've been doing it for 10 years. So that's when I
Luke Morrisen: braved up and and set up my own business. Wow.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Jumping off that cliff and realizing it's just a step.
Luke Morrisen: Yeah. That's that's exactly how I felt. I mean, it's I mean, there's, you know,
Luke Morrisen: millions of people that go out on their own and and set up their own
Luke Morrisen: journey, but when you're when you're a provider for the family
Luke Morrisen: and you you've got a good steady income coming in, your
Luke Morrisen: children are happy, and you finally got a house that you were were really proud
Luke Morrisen: of to then make that jump again. It was something I had to talk about
Luke Morrisen: a lot with my wife and really had to dig down if this is the
Luke Morrisen: right choice. And do you know what? Bless her. Straight away, she was like, Lou,
Luke Morrisen: I know you can do it from where you've come from to where you are
Luke Morrisen: now. I've got no doubts. If you think this is the right decision, you can
Luke Morrisen: you should go and do it, and you can do it. So it it's when
Luke Morrisen: you're in the trenches, it's it's not as scary as you think it's gonna be,
Luke Morrisen: but it's making that leap in there and and jumping in. That's that's the scary
Luke Morrisen: part. Right? It is. Yeah. Just it's the fear of the unknown. There's
Joanne Lockwood: nothing. We all we all face that. So you're you're in
Joanne Lockwood: technology and digital. Is that is that right? Correct. Yeah. So what what what
Joanne Lockwood: sort of scope is that? That's that's IT. That's electronics.
Joanne Lockwood: It's STEM type. Yeah. It it's
Luke Morrisen: it's a really tough one for me because of my my
Luke Morrisen: differences in character. Right? I'm a bit of a magpie. So I like to
Luke Morrisen: if I see something shiny, I learn to jump like to jump on it. But
Luke Morrisen: what I'm really proud of that I've managed to do is stick within an area
Luke Morrisen: that I've done for 10 or so years. So web developers,
Luke Morrisen: software engineers, digital creative designers, product
Luke Morrisen: managers, That that's the realm that I know
Luke Morrisen: and I understand, and I probably shouldn't start dipping my toe in other areas
Luke Morrisen: until I've completed this part of the business, and then we can add new
Luke Morrisen: parts. But, yeah, it's it's a fascinating industry. You meet
Luke Morrisen: some fascinating people from all spectrums. You know,
Luke Morrisen: you get very introverted developers, you get very extroverted
Luke Morrisen: developers. So I I really enjoy
Luke Morrisen: understanding on the on the initial call. I really enjoy that call.
Luke Morrisen: I I get I've got a good feel of who this person is. I I
Luke Morrisen: understand that they're probably not gonna be, like, to be spoken to in this way.
Luke Morrisen: I'm gonna have to speak to them a bit differently to get them engaged and
Luke Morrisen: to engage with them. And then once I'm on that journey, I can then start
Luke Morrisen: piecing brilliant. Well, that'll be really good for this client actually because that that client's
Luke Morrisen: got an amazing culture that can help support them on their journey or
Luke Morrisen: they're good for the role technically, but that definitely won't be the right business for
Luke Morrisen: them for them to go into because it's not an it's not a
Luke Morrisen: it's not an environment that will help them thrive. So I feel like understanding
Luke Morrisen: my journey and where I've come from and my son's journey, my children's
Luke Morrisen: journey, I can now identify blind spots in candidates
Luke Morrisen: when they're talking about businesses and culture they wanna go into.
Luke Morrisen: So I can, yeah, I feel like I've got a good understanding now of how
Luke Morrisen: to piece that together and and almost put the puzzle in the in the
Luke Morrisen: jigsaw. You said the culture is really important, isn't it? Because
Joanne Lockwood: I've got a an IT, bit of a developer background
Joanne Lockwood: myself, and you tend to find you're mingling with people
Joanne Lockwood: in in organizations who are creative. They're marketeers.
Joanne Lockwood: They're HR or operations
Joanne Lockwood: or production. And each of those different skills has a different way
Joanne Lockwood: of interfacing with each other. And I find sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: IT people are stereotyped into this sort
Joanne Lockwood: of person with a long, you know, long beard looking like Gandalf locked
Joanne Lockwood: in a cupboard, no dark. Yeah. Just feed me coffee and and pizza and leave
Joanne Lockwood: me alone. To be honest, that's kinda how I was. You
Joanne Lockwood: know? I I didn't want to be interrupted all the time. Yeah. Last thing I
Joanne Lockwood: wanted was people people standing over me asking
Joanne Lockwood: stuff. Yeah. And it's it's it can be quite a a challenge
Joanne Lockwood: for people who are not used to working with people who are artisans and artists
Joanne Lockwood: and technically competent and brilliant because they they often do
Joanne Lockwood: think differently, don't they? Yeah. Absolutely. I think
Luke Morrisen: it's a really it's a really gray area and it's a thin line to
Luke Morrisen: to tread because you you need companies need those
Luke Morrisen: types of people. Company needs a developer that's really happy sitting
Luke Morrisen: at home, plugging away on their code, maybe working in the middle of the
Luke Morrisen: night and sleeping until 12 o'clock. Some businesses actually need that
Luke Morrisen: and they have many developers or engineers in that environment that work
Luke Morrisen: in that manner. But it's kinda like breaking the mold because 8
Luke Morrisen: clients would be, look, we we need some we need some diversity within the
Luke Morrisen: business. We've got a load of this, but we we need something else.
Luke Morrisen: But once I put that new person into that business, how are they then
Luke Morrisen: supporting that individual if they're the only one that works in a certain
Luke Morrisen: way or if they're the only one that's really expressive and that can communicate
Luke Morrisen: and, you know, is happy to jump on sack all the time and speak to
Luke Morrisen: people, but nobody in the business or nobody in the team wants to talk to
Luke Morrisen: them. It it's a real tough tough line to walk. Like, how do you manage
Luke Morrisen: that? And I guess it comes down from it it comes from the top.
Luke Morrisen: Like, you have to have really hard conversations with business owners and
Luke Morrisen: CEOs and directors of what is their culture, what what
Luke Morrisen: what is your culture? Like, don't tell me what you believe it to
Luke Morrisen: be. Like, actually, what does it feel like? Cause I think you'll have a lot
Luke Morrisen: of interesting conversations where they explain what they want it to be,
Luke Morrisen: but naturally you hear conversations or you look on Glassdoor, you read some
Luke Morrisen: reviews, so it doesn't sound like it's like that. So be honest with
Luke Morrisen: me. And once you can have those conversations and then you can start
Luke Morrisen: introducing them to people that they've they probably would never have on their radar
Luke Morrisen: before, I think that's when the fun starts to happen
Luke Morrisen: because that's when culture starts to change. And I've had it in in previous roles
Luke Morrisen: where I've been a manager of of, you know, a recruitment team in
Luke Morrisen: Reading and and in London, and you you have
Luke Morrisen: these conversations with your team and you get to know everyone on an individual
Luke Morrisen: level. I think it's really important not to have this blanket approach to
Luke Morrisen: management because that's where that's what I've seen in the schooling
Luke Morrisen: system that doesn't work. You treat all of your pupil pupils as the same. They
Luke Morrisen: all learn the same. Well, in reality, that is completely false, and you have
Luke Morrisen: to you have to be able to break down barriers. You have to understand what
Luke Morrisen: how does this individual thrive? What how do they like to learn? How do they
Luke Morrisen: not like to be spoken to? And that may be completely different to Jane
Luke Morrisen: that's in across from them, but you have to have that different approach.
Luke Morrisen: And that's when cultures start to change, and that's when you start
Luke Morrisen: introducing some different varieties of people and different learning
Luke Morrisen: styles, and you kinda see everybody excel in their
Luke Morrisen: own areas. And, yeah, that's where I think a great culture starts to
Luke Morrisen: be created. Yeah. Again, without stereotyping anybody here, the
Joanne Lockwood: there are people who interface better to the computer
Joanne Lockwood: and less effectively to people. But then there are people who are able
Joanne Lockwood: to interface between the deep deeply technical people and
Joanne Lockwood: the less technical people. So you end up having these layers of interface where some
Joanne Lockwood: people can translate from human to machine,
Joanne Lockwood: some people can't. So you have to you have to put people where they're where
Joanne Lockwood: they're best, how they communicate. I remember I was at an event
Joanne Lockwood: once, and I was talking to I think it was a business owner. He was
Joanne Lockwood: talking about his IT staff, and he couldn't understand. He's
Joanne Lockwood: these these IT guys, they just don't fit the culture of my organization.
Joanne Lockwood: They they they grab their lunch. They sit in their car. I wanna take them
Joanne Lockwood: to the pub. I wanna do this. I wanna do all this network bonding at
Joanne Lockwood: lunchtime. They wanna sit in their car, eat their lunch. They come back in. He
Joanne Lockwood: said, I can't cope with it. I think I'm gonna fire them. I'm gonna fire
Joanne Lockwood: people who who wanna join him. I said, you really don't get it, do you?
Joanne Lockwood: That's that makes them happy. And it's trying to incorporate, as
Joanne Lockwood: you say, all those different needs of personality type
Joanne Lockwood: to get the best out of people and work with them where they wanna be,
Joanne Lockwood: not all not demand they come where you are. Your culture, actually.
Joanne Lockwood: Culture has evolved amongst everybody. Absolutely.
Luke Morrisen: Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's probably more of a selfish requirement of what
Luke Morrisen: that individual wanted out of his team rather than what the team wanted out
Luke Morrisen: of each other, you know. Yeah. You see it, especially in
Luke Morrisen: recruitment. I mean, it it's it's got its pros and its cons and, you know,
Luke Morrisen: people have got some great things to say about recruiters and some terrible things, unfortunately,
Luke Morrisen: like many industries, I guess. I've I got into recruitment
Luke Morrisen: fairly late in my life compared to many others around me.
Luke Morrisen: I was in a business where I was the only one with children. I didn't
Luke Morrisen: wanna go out drinking all the time because I've kind of had a life of
Luke Morrisen: alcohol before. And I was kind of frowned upon and looked
Luke Morrisen: at, like, you know, look, you need to you're you're a manager in the business.
Luke Morrisen: You need to be going out with your team. You need to be doing this.
Luke Morrisen: And it's actually, like, that's not what I wanna do. Speaking
Luke Morrisen: to the team, some really enjoyed and wanted to do that. Some
Luke Morrisen: really didn't. So then we started creating a world where, cool. Well,
Luke Morrisen: we'll go and do this this time, and we'll go and do this another day
Luke Morrisen: because, you know, you you start then changing your
Luke Morrisen: environment. You're you're changing needs for other people
Luke Morrisen: and then you you're becoming more flexible. And that's really
Luke Morrisen: really I guess people really value that as a leader and value
Luke Morrisen: that as a business. You know, sales culture and in recruitment, we
Luke Morrisen: had lots of people that were Muslim that didn't drink, and that was a bold
Luke Morrisen: step for a man a manager to go out drinking
Luke Morrisen: with them. And he's kinda like, mate, is that the right thing to be doing
Luke Morrisen: with your team where you got people in there that don't drink? And so, well,
Luke Morrisen: a lot of the people do. It's like, okay. But how do you create a
Luke Morrisen: safe environment where they feel like they should be there and they don't wanna
Luke Morrisen: go home early or they don't wanna attend it? It's it's tough, but you
Luke Morrisen: have to be brave and you have to make some brave decisions. And I think
Luke Morrisen: you've you've gotta put your selfishness to one side and really
Luke Morrisen: listen your team and get to know them. That's a really good point. I I
Joanne Lockwood: gave up drinking. I stopped drinking 945 days ago,
Joanne Lockwood: not that I'm counting. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible the amount
Joanne Lockwood: of life and work business that revolves
Joanne Lockwood: around drinking in some way, whether it's your meeting in the pub,
Joanne Lockwood: you're watching the football, you're watching the Olympics, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be. And suddenly when you don't drink, how you
Joanne Lockwood: often feel excluded.
Joanne Lockwood: Because why would I want to go and spend an evening with a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: people who were drinking? Because after about an hour, it becomes really tedious,
Joanne Lockwood: and I can't drink that much water or that much lemonade or whatever it
Joanne Lockwood: may be. So, yeah, it it does exclude the people who are
Joanne Lockwood: for whether it's chosen, a faith, or a need to stop
Joanne Lockwood: drinking. Often our workplaces are places where
Joanne Lockwood: drinking is still centered as part of the culture. It's a bit like smoking was
Joanne Lockwood: 15, 20 years ago where to be in the in crowd, you had to be
Joanne Lockwood: in the smoking group outside in the in the pouring rain
Joanne Lockwood: smoking with each other. That was kind of the place to be with the boss
Joanne Lockwood: who smoked, wasn't it? And things happen in the
Joanne Lockwood: drinking zone as well. Deals are done. Yeah. Yeah.
Luke Morrisen: Absolutely. I mean, I've I'm I've congratulations on your sober journey, by
Luke Morrisen: the way. That's that's really good stuff. I've I've dipped in and out
Luke Morrisen: of alcohol ever since I was a teenager. When I was
Luke Morrisen: DJing and working and live and working on-site, it
Luke Morrisen: was full of builders that went to the pub at, you know, middle of the
Luke Morrisen: day and then I would go out into clubs still where you could smoke in
Luke Morrisen: in a club and I'd be smoking and drinking. My life was consumed
Luke Morrisen: by alcohol and, you know, other parts that come with with that lifestyle.
Luke Morrisen: When I had my children, I kind of knew the effects it
Luke Morrisen: was having on me being a dad, being a a good
Luke Morrisen: husband. It took me a long time to get to where I
Luke Morrisen: am now where I finally decided to stop completely. I would do
Luke Morrisen: 6 months here, 9 months out, go on a real big health
Luke Morrisen: kick. In the back of my mind, I always thought, well, Christmas is coming
Luke Morrisen: up. So I'll drink at Christmas, and then that'll I'll be drinking again. It's fine.
Luke Morrisen: So I was always working to a a milestone. About 4
Luke Morrisen: months ago, I decided to pack it in, and I have had no
Luke Morrisen: regrets whatsoever. I mean, I've got no milestone in my mind that I'm gonna
Luke Morrisen: drink. I'm going on holiday with the family in a few weeks, and
Luke Morrisen: it's not even on my radar to have a drink right now. It is I'm
Luke Morrisen: I'm beyond that. This is this is a turning point in my life because it
Luke Morrisen: is, personally, it's no good for me. Lots of people can have the
Luke Morrisen: odd drink here or there, and it doesn't affect them. I am all or nothing.
Luke Morrisen: I've demonstrated that in a lot of things that I do in my life. So
Luke Morrisen: for me, I have to make that decision. It's really tough at work because I
Luke Morrisen: wanted to do this. It was really tough in employment, actually, is
Luke Morrisen: probably a better way to put it, because I wanted to give out alcohol when
Luke Morrisen: my kids were born. But working in the sales environment, you know, I wanted to
Luke Morrisen: progress. I wanted to show the the managers and the the business
Luke Morrisen: owners that I was committed. Along with that comes turning up to
Luke Morrisen: events, being fun, being engaging, not being the odd
Luke Morrisen: one out. So you end up drinking loads and loads and loads. And it it
Luke Morrisen: will it actually wasn't achievable, which is sad. I think that's really
Luke Morrisen: sad. I actually interviewed somebody for for my business a
Luke Morrisen: couple of weeks ago, and he's a young lad who similar journey to me, but
Luke Morrisen: he's identified it really early. He doesn't wanna be involved in the culture, the
Luke Morrisen: drinking. And he's actually left that business and joined another really good
Luke Morrisen: recruitment business off the back of that. And that's that was a moment where I
Luke Morrisen: thought these are the types of people that I wanna hire. I wanna hire people
Luke Morrisen: that understand who they are or they they I don't want to
Luke Morrisen: put anybody in an environment where they don't feel safe or they
Luke Morrisen: feel like they have to be somebody that they're not to fit in. So that
Luke Morrisen: was a real sort of standing point where I thought, wow, that's, you know, that's
Luke Morrisen: given me a good understanding of what I want the company to be, but also
Luke Morrisen: it gives you a good insight as to how poorly people are doing it at
Luke Morrisen: the moment. I remember I was invited to a a
Joanne Lockwood: 3 day reunion weekend probably about a
Joanne Lockwood: couple of years And the person sent through this agenda, and it it
Joanne Lockwood: starts off with gin tasting, then there was a wine taste, then there was
Joanne Lockwood: whiskey tasting, And it it went on to lunch, pre dinner drinks,
Joanne Lockwood: bottle of wine per head with the meal, aperitifs,
Joanne Lockwood: whiskey, whatever. And I just went back and said, look, I don't
Joanne Lockwood: wanna be miserable or upset anybody or or or make it a big
Joanne Lockwood: deal, but it doesn't sound like it's for me. The whole
Joanne Lockwood: agenda has alcohol as part of the agenda item.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's not an afterthought. It's it's kind of driven by it. And they they
Joanne Lockwood: came back and said, well, we can do you a we can do a a
Joanne Lockwood: a different cost if you're not drinking. I said, no. No. You missed the point.
Joanne Lockwood: It's the fact that everything is centered around alcohol
Joanne Lockwood: being a core part of the program, and that's just not for
Joanne Lockwood: me. And I don't wanna put myself in an environment where I'm sitting around
Joanne Lockwood: watching people get drunk because that's what happens. And we know the behavior
Joanne Lockwood: changes after I'll drink up a glasses. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's I I now actively take myself out of those spaces in
Joanne Lockwood: the same way that when I gave up smoking, I actively took myself out of
Joanne Lockwood: spaces where people smoked. You know, people were gonna have this meeting
Joanne Lockwood: outside in the smoking area. Or if I was with a group of friends in
Joanne Lockwood: the pub at the time, they said, we're gonna go for a cigarette. I'd say,
Joanne Lockwood: go on then. I'll stay in the pub. I'm not gonna join you. I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: gonna add me to you to go and socialize where you want to socialize.
Joanne Lockwood: So how about you hang on here with me? Oh, no. No. No. So I
Joanne Lockwood: think I think we've gotta start taking a stand as as
Joanne Lockwood: nondrinkers and even say, oh, I can give you a Becks Blue or a
Joanne Lockwood: Peroni 0 0 or something like that. Yeah. I'll have that if I'm in an
Joanne Lockwood: event where that's the option. But I I won't be looking forward to
Joanne Lockwood: go, oh, look. I can have a 0 bid. And I yeah. I'm looking for
Joanne Lockwood: so I go for different reason now, but the thing I've I learned about it
Joanne Lockwood: about myself is that I now make smarter, better
Joanne Lockwood: choices. It's 10 o'clock. I'm feeling tired. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: gonna go home. When I was drinking, it was like, how many more can I
Joanne Lockwood: squeeze in before the last train? Oh god. Missed the last train. Where can I
Joanne Lockwood: stay tonight? Well, we'll go clubbing then. I'll I'll find somewhere
Joanne Lockwood: later, and then you end up sleeping on Waterloo Station
Joanne Lockwood: gripping onto your laptop with a with a cup of coffee in one hand and
Joanne Lockwood: your laptop with a pillow in the other hand, waking up with a with a
Joanne Lockwood: lap full of cold coffee when and no trains left because you've fallen asleep, missed
Joanne Lockwood: everything. So I've been there, and I've got so many friends who
Joanne Lockwood: who's who tell these stories of me, and they
Joanne Lockwood: always revolve around being drunk or being
Joanne Lockwood: silly or being whatever. And it's since I've gone to the
Joanne Lockwood: point in my life where I didn't want my life to be remembered
Joanne Lockwood: by as a as a drinker in that way.
Joanne Lockwood: And both of our children have a story about me being drunk
Joanne Lockwood: on holiday in places, and I thought blimey. You just take a
Joanne Lockwood: one eyed look at yourself. That's not who I who I want to be. And
Joanne Lockwood: I I think, again, going back to what I said earlier, as a society, as
Joanne Lockwood: a as a in the world of work, we send to alcohol
Joanne Lockwood: in the same way you used to send to smoking and alcohol. We've moved on
Joanne Lockwood: from smoking. Let's move on from alcohol being sent because it it
Joanne Lockwood: does exclude. It's still the in place to be in the pub, which
Joanne Lockwood: is why many women feel excluded because many of my female
Joanne Lockwood: friends do not wanna go to the pub more than for for half an
Joanne Lockwood: hour because it gets messy. Things things change.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's not a safe space in a in a drunken environment for for many
Joanne Lockwood: women and many other people as well, but, yeah, women especially. And they they
Joanne Lockwood: plan their nights out around it. And if this is being done in those
Joanne Lockwood: environments, people are gonna be excluded. I think that's we've gotta change our
Joanne Lockwood: relationship, haven't we? Yeah. Well, the the trouble is, I mean, our
Luke Morrisen: our society here in Britain is so alcohol is such
Luke Morrisen: a big and I've when I get stopped drinking, I've I've never proclaimed that
Luke Morrisen: I'm gonna keep harping on about it and, you know, telling everyone about
Luke Morrisen: my journey. But as as we've discussed it, I think it's important to mention our
Luke Morrisen: society is built up around alcohol, and it is it is a huge part
Luke Morrisen: of everyday life. I mean, I've got friends that don't deem themselves
Luke Morrisen: of alcoholics, and they'll drink every day a couple of beers, which
Luke Morrisen: is fine, but it doesn't affect their life and that I could never do that.
Luke Morrisen: It doesn't affect their life. They can still go on and achieve great things and,
Luke Morrisen: you know, families and all sorts. I I really struggle
Luke Morrisen: with I really struggle with are we ever gonna get past this
Luke Morrisen: point. I'm seeing more and more sober people than I've seen before. I
Luke Morrisen: think there's a lot more people becoming aware of it, seeing the benefits in
Luke Morrisen: others. I mean, I could talk all all afternoon about the benefits
Luke Morrisen: of not drinking alcohol. But as a society, it's
Luke Morrisen: so embedded into who we are now. I can't
Luke Morrisen: see it changing more than it is now. The pubs are getting
Luke Morrisen: more expensive. It's probably gonna stop people drinking a bit more. I get that.
Luke Morrisen: But it then bleeds into the workspace. And how do you
Luke Morrisen: how do you create an environment where people can have
Luke Morrisen: alcohol for the ones that do want to go out on socials and
Luke Morrisen: that, you know, they do drink, and then how do you create that environment for
Luke Morrisen: the ones that don't want that without excluding one another? It's a real it's a
Luke Morrisen: real tough one. I don't know the answer. I'm still early into this journey,
Luke Morrisen: of course, but I definitely feel like you need
Luke Morrisen: to understand everyone on a deeper level, get to know them individually,
Luke Morrisen: get to know what they want, what they don't want, and then coming up with
Luke Morrisen: ideas that, you know, maybe go out and do an event that doesn't involve
Luke Morrisen: it. And the ones that that wanna crack on and do that and drink in
Luke Morrisen: the evenings, go and drink in the evenings because I guarantee the sober ones want
Luke Morrisen: to go home at 9 o'clock or 8 o'clock and see their families and relax.
Luke Morrisen: That's where I am now. Yeah. I I agree. I I
Joanne Lockwood: think one of the things you can do as an organization is make a stand
Joanne Lockwood: and say nothing we ever organize will have alcohol
Joanne Lockwood: included. Alcohol is can be an option. You can go and buy it
Joanne Lockwood: yourself, but the business will no longer fund alcohol purchases,
Joanne Lockwood: and that includes expenses policies. You know? Zero tolerance to
Joanne Lockwood: alcohol on expenses. You know? A drink with a meal is not
Joanne Lockwood: alcohol. And as soon as businesses start taking their very proactive
Joanne Lockwood: attitude, alcohol will always be included
Joanne Lockwood: and paid for by the business. Therefore, people always abuse it. I mean, I
Joanne Lockwood: I've I've got a gold star in abusing expenses policies with alcohol.
Joanne Lockwood: It's it's abusing parties. I yeah. I'm not trying
Joanne Lockwood: to play white to the white here. I've been that person
Joanne Lockwood: who's collected trays of shots while it's still happy
Joanne Lockwood: hour or free at the bar, put them under the table, and bring the whole
Joanne Lockwood: table and start collecting alcohol so you got free drinks all night. I've been
Joanne Lockwood: that person, and I'm not proud of that. I look back
Joanne Lockwood: and think, well, that was the culture that was there. Everyone was doing it. And,
Joanne Lockwood: I guess, the organization, the company knew that they're gonna end up with a a
Joanne Lockwood: 30 k alcohol bill, but it was all seemed to be worth it. So, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's we've gotta have to start having 0 tolerance and organize things that
Joanne Lockwood: aren't based around alcohol until we do. That's the right thing to
Luke Morrisen: do. Yeah. Because it ruins people's lives, and I'm not not being
Joanne Lockwood: that as a reformed drinker. I'm not trying to implant my
Joanne Lockwood: perspective on everybody else, but, yeah, it does ruin people's lives. And we see I
Joanne Lockwood: was just just to put a date stamp on this recording,
Joanne Lockwood: we were we had the race riots couple of weeks ago in the last
Joanne Lockwood: the last 10 days. I've seen some of the stories about people who were
Joanne Lockwood: charged and imprisoned as a result of it. Someone just literally walked out the pub.
Joanne Lockwood: All their mates are going, come on. Get out here here. They're all fueled out
Joanne Lockwood: drinking, and suddenly their their life has changed because they
Joanne Lockwood: made the wrong decision after a few drinks. And
Joanne Lockwood: we know that it it gives you it it removes your
Joanne Lockwood: objectiveness and your decision making power. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwood: I Tricking and driving are things. I I genuinely believe
Luke Morrisen: nothing good comes from alcohol. I do I I can't put one point
Luke Morrisen: in my life where alcohol's contributed to any
Luke Morrisen: success or any positives in my life. I can't okay. There may be
Luke Morrisen: nights where I had a really good time. I had a had a good laugh,
Luke Morrisen: but I have some great great times with my friends not drinking. I went on
Luke Morrisen: a stack date not too long ago, and it was really tame. Don't get me
Luke Morrisen: wrong. It wasn't a stack stack do. We're all, you know, late thirties now,
Luke Morrisen: but it was I I had an amazing meal. I sat there.
Luke Morrisen: I had 2 alcohol free Guinness's, and I drank water or diet coke for the
Luke Morrisen: rest of the night. And I was I came home and I was so so
Luke Morrisen: happy and proud of myself that I've managed to have a great night with
Luke Morrisen: great friends, not drunk. And I woke up the next day. I
Luke Morrisen: did what I needed to do. I was present for my family, I was there
Luke Morrisen: for my children, we you know, I'm I'm doing more and more with my family
Luke Morrisen: now than I ever done. But it's because the most important
Luke Morrisen: thing to me right now is family. The second most important thing is getting my
Luke Morrisen: business off the ground and making it a success for my family. And I can't
Luke Morrisen: do that whilst I'm drinking alcohol because it then consumes me as a
Luke Morrisen: person and all all I end up doing is being an
Luke Morrisen: alcoholic in so in a sense. Yeah. Having a hangover waiting for the next drink.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Kinda how it was. Yeah. Absolutely. So if you're if you're at different stage
Joanne Lockwood: of your life where it it helps you relax, absolutely, then fine.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not here to police you as you are. But you but you
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes you just need to step back and look at your life. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And, work out how much of it's consumed or dominated by having a
Joanne Lockwood: drink. And then when you stop, it really is it really is
Joanne Lockwood: noticeable how how much everything revolves. And the other thing, my wife and
Joanne Lockwood: I, we're trying to lose weight. So you you you realize how much life revolves
Joanne Lockwood: around eating and drinking. Mhmm. It's part of your
Joanne Lockwood: socialization. I guess it's a human thing. So, yeah, it's yeah. It does
Joanne Lockwood: dominate your life and Yeah. So many Saturday mornings and Sunday
Joanne Lockwood: mornings that you can get I can get out of bed till midday or
Joanne Lockwood: they're feeling rough afterwards and then you have another drink. You
Joanne Lockwood: still feel rough. You drink through it. Yeah. It's
Luke Morrisen: it's a forever going cycle, isn't it? That's the trouble when it's, it's
Luke Morrisen: until you've been until you brave up and you go, well, I don't want
Luke Morrisen: this anymore. If you've know if you knew that if you've known for a long
Luke Morrisen: time that it's not something you wanna keep doing, when you finally get to that
Luke Morrisen: point and you you break it okay. It's a bit scary.
Luke Morrisen: It's a bit daunting at the time and, you know, you think that people are
Luke Morrisen: gonna look at you differently or treat you differently. That's only
Luke Morrisen: that's I feel like that's their own insecurities rather
Luke Morrisen: than, you know, they're probably a bit jealous because I think a lot of people
Luke Morrisen: would love to stop drinking, but just this part of society, they can't. When
Luke Morrisen: you do that, you realize how how easy it is actually and how much
Luke Morrisen: more life you get back. I always I remember James Cordon talking
Luke Morrisen: about alcohol. I can't remember exactly what it was, but he would say whenever
Luke Morrisen: he drinks one day, he gives the day back to alcohol. So it's 2 days
Luke Morrisen: gone of of his life because of the hangovers. I mean, my hangovers would I'd
Luke Morrisen: have a couple of pints on a Sunday, and I'd fill it until Wednesday.
Luke Morrisen: So my hang of hang overs are a lot longer, but you you give that
Luke Morrisen: life away to that to the alcohol. And I've got that life back, and I've
Luke Morrisen: got that time back. So now I've been putting it into the family and into
Luke Morrisen: the business, and it's, you know, it feels like the perfect time to stop, Deborah.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you think your ADHD or your neurodiversity
Joanne Lockwood: fueled that kind of addictive behavior? Was
Joanne Lockwood: it could you I'm not saying blame it on that, but could you see a
Joanne Lockwood: sign where it was that all or nothing totally?
Luke Morrisen: Yeah. Absolutely. Like I said, it's not understanding my son's
Luke Morrisen: neurodiversity and the the way that he is with things, he is very
Luke Morrisen: much all or nothing. I am all or nothing, and it is a
Luke Morrisen: big part of ADHD. So you when I get into something, I get
Luke Morrisen: into it. I'm not a fad where I'll do lots and lots of different things
Luke Morrisen: and, you know, do a jack of all muscle and I know I will put
Luke Morrisen: all my time into the thing that I love at the time. Same with
Luke Morrisen: golf, like, I I love golf. That is my hobby. That's my time
Luke Morrisen: away. When I was in the gym a lot, I was doing bodybuilding. I was
Luke Morrisen: you know, that was my thing at the time. But I've always kept golf and
Luke Morrisen: gym in my life. Alcar was something that I just couldn't
Luke Morrisen: couldn't do a little bit of. I and I said to my friends all the
Luke Morrisen: time, they're like, surely you can just sit here and have one beer. I was
Luke Morrisen: like, I could. Of course I could. But I will go home and I would
Luke Morrisen: want another beer. And then it's taken over my weekend. And
Luke Morrisen: I would I've lost my weekend's outcome. My family's lost their
Luke Morrisen: dads to, you know, being down the pub with friends. It's just it's
Luke Morrisen: just not important to me. And now I've realized this, and now I've understood
Luke Morrisen: who I am as a person. And I'm still on that journey. I'm still very
Luke Morrisen: infant into understanding who I am. But now I'm on this
Luke Morrisen: journey, I realize what's good for me and what's bad for me and
Luke Morrisen: how addictive I can get to to
Luke Morrisen: situations and alcohols, and it is part of neurodiversity
Luke Morrisen: and ADHD. I definitely a lot a lot of people that drink a d
Luke Morrisen: that have ADHD shouldn't drink because it is an addictive
Luke Morrisen: trait. So, yeah, I would definitely pass it on to that.
Luke Morrisen: Blame blame ADHD. Well, no. But it's it's all part of
Joanne Lockwood: that hyperfocus. It's all part of that. I mean, I I
Joanne Lockwood: know I can't I can have none, but I can't have
Joanne Lockwood: 1. 1 is 10. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Or or it's or feeling that you need 10.
Joanne Lockwood: Even even if I have 1 and have to leave, it's like, oh, one more.
Joanne Lockwood: We'll we'll finish somebody else's off. You know? That's the worst thing. Yeah. Do you
Luke Morrisen: know what? I've given up recently as well because I'm now on this journey
Luke Morrisen: of healthiness and, you know, being healthy as I grow older
Luke Morrisen: and being there for my family. I've actually given up coffee and
Luke Morrisen: it is that's I was as shocked with giving
Luke Morrisen: up coffee and the effects it had on my body
Luke Morrisen: than I was when I gave up alcohol. I mean, my my
Luke Morrisen: focus now and I do struggle with focusing at work when I'm on my own
Luke Morrisen: in my office and I'm I'm, you know, grinding out, trying to get the business
Luke Morrisen: up and running. Coffee and if I would say and maybe have
Luke Morrisen: 6, 7 cups of coffee a day. Now I don't drink it, and I'm
Luke Morrisen: through that period of not drinking on, what, 2 months now,
Luke Morrisen: I am so much more focused at work. I sleep a lot better. It's I
Luke Morrisen: just I had no idea. But again, it's an ADHD thing. You know,
Luke Morrisen: if you're if you've got that type of personality, you shouldn't really be
Luke Morrisen: drinking coffee or drinking alcohol because you can't get addicted to it. And you
Luke Morrisen: can end up, you know, it can change who you are and how you
Luke Morrisen: work. Yeah. We we we share another similar thing. I I
Joanne Lockwood: gave up caffeine for about 8 8 years
Joanne Lockwood: ago. Did you? I being with an IT background, it's almost like
Joanne Lockwood: you'd you've been working all night. You're
Joanne Lockwood: engrossed in something. You you'd stand up for go to the toilet, get a
Joanne Lockwood: coffee, or you you wait for something to compile or wait for something to load
Joanne Lockwood: or doing something like that. You go and grab a coffee or out in the
Joanne Lockwood: old days, go have a cigarette, have a coffee. And then I remember walking
Joanne Lockwood: around Sainsbury's about 8 or 9 years ago, and I remember my
Joanne Lockwood: I felt really, really uncomfortable in my chest. I felt really kinda like I was
Joanne Lockwood: pulpitating. And I started doing some
Joanne Lockwood: analysis of this and realized that it was coffee. It happened before when I had
Joanne Lockwood: a a Red Bull weekend a few years before, but I realized that coffee
Joanne Lockwood: did it. So now I drink decaf. I still drink too much decaf.
Joanne Lockwood: But I if I have a if I have a full strength coffee now,
Joanne Lockwood: I can feel it. If I have 2, I've I I start feeling my chest.
Joanne Lockwood: It's going funny. I start feeling hyper. I feel kind of really
Joanne Lockwood: uncomfortable. And, so, yeah, I I know what caffeine does to me now, whether
Joanne Lockwood: I'm whether I've developed an intolerance to it over my life or whether
Joanne Lockwood: I'm just masking it because I was doing so much of it. But, yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: I I have a very high or low threshold of tolerance for for
Joanne Lockwood: caffeine. Well, you you get used to it after time, don't you? Your your body
Luke Morrisen: becomes numb to the effects of it, same as alcohol and, you know,
Luke Morrisen: any substance that you do more and more and more of, you become
Luke Morrisen: used to it and it doesn't have the same effect. So I've not I refuse
Luke Morrisen: to have a coffee now because of the headaches I got after stopping. I mean,
Luke Morrisen: I had 3 or 4 days of in the middle of the night pounding. I
Luke Morrisen: was I was googling it, which you should never do when you've got a headache.
Luke Morrisen: Don't ever Google anything like that. And then it and then I
Luke Morrisen: kind of so the reason why I stopped is when we had that first heat
Luke Morrisen: wave about two and a half months ago, and I couldn't drink during the couldn't
Luke Morrisen: drink hot drinks. I was like, no. I'm gonna give it a rest. And then
Luke Morrisen: it got to Sunday, and my head was pounding. Laura was like, if you change
Luke Morrisen: this in your diet like, she was getting quite worried. And then so, actually, I
Luke Morrisen: I haven't drunk coffee for 4 4, 5 days. And then she's like, I
Luke Morrisen: reckon it's that. And then we looked at it and because it it
Luke Morrisen: restricts the capillaries in your brain to stop the blood flow, which is why when
Luke Morrisen: you stop, your capillaries open up and that's when you get the headaches. I was,
Luke Morrisen: oh, I'm not gonna drink it now if it if it's been I struggle enough
Luke Morrisen: as it is with my with my brain getting blood in now. I don't wanna
Luke Morrisen: don't wanna add to that. So, yeah, I gave gave it up after the back
Luke Morrisen: of that. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. It's, it's really ask if we we
Joanne Lockwood: can share any of our stories.
Joanne Lockwood: We both got addictive personalities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. But I think
Joanne Lockwood: it it just take it just takes something in your life. As you as you've
Joanne Lockwood: said eloquently many times, it's around finding that
Joanne Lockwood: focus about your family. You're you're turning your hyperfocus, if you like,
Joanne Lockwood: on on your social side, your family side, getting getting
Joanne Lockwood: pleasure and satisfaction at the love of your family,
Joanne Lockwood: which you can't do that when you have another monster
Joanne Lockwood: taking over. Yeah. It's a really nice way to frame it actually
Luke Morrisen: because I'm I always look at myself, oh, maybe I'm never happy enough. Like, I'm
Luke Morrisen: always looking for the next thing. Like, that's part of my personality, but
Luke Morrisen: actually framing it. And, like, my hope and focus now is my family.
Luke Morrisen: That's a real I've not I've not thought about it that like that before. That's
Luke Morrisen: a really nice way to look at it. And I I look at the challenges
Luke Morrisen: my children have had. You know, even my wife, she she's in
Luke Morrisen: brilliant roles. She's worked at a great company for a long time. She left
Luke Morrisen: to take a step up in her career and with a new with a new
Luke Morrisen: company, and unfortunately, it didn't go to plan. Her manager left. She was left
Luke Morrisen: with lots of stuff on her plate, and it threw a downward
Luke Morrisen: spiral. She was off work. She's never been off with panic attacks or
Luke Morrisen: anxiety. She was extremely she was in a really dark place
Luke Morrisen: for a long time, and that was my it's like a commitment
Luke Morrisen: now. I wanna build something so she doesn't have to work, so she can do
Luke Morrisen: something that she really loves doing. I know she loves her role now, but I
Luke Morrisen: wanna I wanna create a life for my family that is special. And I
Luke Morrisen: think understanding my family and where they've been and my children,
Luke Morrisen: I've I really believe that we can help that with other people
Luke Morrisen: looking for jobs and companies that are hiring and taking my
Luke Morrisen: experience with speaking to incredible people that are
Luke Morrisen: perfect for their business because of their culture, not just because of their
Luke Morrisen: technical skills. I think there's some really nice there's
Luke Morrisen: some really nice nuances within there that I can help match
Luke Morrisen: that. I'm still on this journey. It's still very early for me. I've got
Luke Morrisen: lots and lots to learn and, you know, podcasts like this and speaking to people
Luke Morrisen: like yourself really help contribute towards that. But, yeah, it's
Luke Morrisen: it's I feel like it's the right time for me. I'm I'm
Luke Morrisen: maturing finally as a person.
Joanne Lockwood: I think that we I think well, I think we all go through, but some
Joanne Lockwood: of us go through it later in life where you you finally start to understand
Joanne Lockwood: the game of life. You realize what it really is all about, what are the
Joanne Lockwood: important things, what things you'll you'll grow to regret that you
Joanne Lockwood: didn't do rather than things you do do sometimes. And looking
Joanne Lockwood: back and saying, actually, that I don't wanna keep keep repeating the same
Joanne Lockwood: things I'm doing. Actually, what I want is this. And it's almost
Joanne Lockwood: reframing. You don't have a work life balance. You have a life balance that allows
Joanne Lockwood: you to live your life and then feed
Joanne Lockwood: that with what you need to succeed. You know, I
Joanne Lockwood: I talk about I'm much more I'm talking about sufficiency now
Joanne Lockwood: rather than gluttony. I went through a phase of my life where I was I
Joanne Lockwood: was gluttonous, if you like. I wanted bigger cars. I wanted I wanted to compete.
Joanne Lockwood: I wanted more of this, more of that, more of the other. I'm not saying
Joanne Lockwood: I still don't buy things. I still buy things, but I don't it's not about
Joanne Lockwood: competing. I buy it because I want it. Mhmm. I enjoy it, and I'll
Joanne Lockwood: get some benefit out of it, not because it's the biggest one or the newest
Joanne Lockwood: one. I'm I'm driving a 17 year old car, and I love
Joanne Lockwood: it. I own it outright. I don't owe anybody anything apart
Joanne Lockwood: from the tax on a monthly basis. But, yeah, it's it's mine outright, whereas in
Joanne Lockwood: the past, I had to have the the latest. I've had X Fives.
Joanne Lockwood: I've had 4 series convertibles and turbo this and
Joanne Lockwood: turbo that. I mean, because it's it seemed to be what right now
Joanne Lockwood: say, sufficiency is is kind of a model I'm happy with. I've I've got
Joanne Lockwood: sufficient for now and next week, maybe next month. That's all
Joanne Lockwood: I care about. It's confidence in in what you're what you're looking for and what
Luke Morrisen: you want, isn't it, really? I mean, you're you're confident that actually you don't you
Luke Morrisen: don't wanna be chasing the big cars and all that because it's not important to
Luke Morrisen: you and who you are and what you're about. You know, as a salesperson,
Luke Morrisen: you typically, you'd have your Lambos and your Ferrari stuck up on your
Luke Morrisen: board behind your computer and all that kind of stuff. And I've I've had
Luke Morrisen: nice cars, and that stuff isn't important to me. It's you know,
Luke Morrisen: I drive a an electric car. It was good because it's through the business.
Luke Morrisen: You get a tax relief off it, which is why we got it. But what's
Luke Morrisen: important to me is making sure my wife's pension is maxed out when we're
Luke Morrisen: older and my children's pensions are maxed out if I can. And, you know,
Luke Morrisen: if I can put the effort in now, you know, I could get to a
Luke Morrisen: point hopefully when I'm in my fifties that my wife can
Luke Morrisen: she knows it. She's got a full pension max out for her. That that's the
Luke Morrisen: goal for me and that's that's what I wanna do. I wanna I wanna be
Luke Morrisen: able to support support my family. And that isn't that
Joanne Lockwood: the I I call this the definition of freedom.
Joanne Lockwood: Freedom is is is the ability to make a decision about what you want to
Joanne Lockwood: do, the the freedom of choice. Knowing that you have the
Joanne Lockwood: means and the support and the whatever it may be, the
Joanne Lockwood: sufficiency around you to to do that. So what you're trying to say is
Joanne Lockwood: you want yourself, your wife, your family to have freedom of choice
Joanne Lockwood: at this point in their life to do whatever they wanna do. And if that
Joanne Lockwood: is stay in work, stay in work. If it's not, let's do this. Good
Joanne Lockwood: traveling, sit in the sun all day. It's one part building that freedom, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, growing up on the farm,
Luke Morrisen: my mom worked very hard and, you know, she had 3 boisterous
Luke Morrisen: boys at the age of 18 and we, you know, we were rough
Luke Morrisen: and tumble kids and she she did what she could. I mean, she she's had
Luke Morrisen: an amazing career. She's got a brilliant business. She's winding down for retirement.
Luke Morrisen: You know, really proud of what she's achieved, and I wanna be able to
Luke Morrisen: achieve that now for my family. I
Luke Morrisen: mean, it's gonna take me a long time. Don't get me wrong. I'm not I'm
Luke Morrisen: not baffled and deluded. And, you know, this time next year, it'll be happy
Luke Morrisen: we've been going 2 years, close to 2 years now. So I think I've got
Luke Morrisen: another 10 years of hard graft until I can sit back and
Luke Morrisen: see the plan evolving. But, yeah, that's what I I want them to have
Luke Morrisen: that flexibility and freedom, and it's not something that I had when I was younger.
Luke Morrisen: No fault to my mom who was trying to do the best she could for
Luke Morrisen: us, but it's it's given me that motivation. And it's
Luke Morrisen: especially, you know, being so close to my family and
Luke Morrisen: and really being present with them now, it's even more of a driver.
Joanne Lockwood: It talks about culture and when
Joanne Lockwood: you're working with organizations around trying to place candidates,
Joanne Lockwood: persuade candidates this is the right opportunity for them, persuade the opportunity this is
Joanne Lockwood: the right candidate for them. Are you seeing in the in the sort of the
Joanne Lockwood: tech sector that you work in, the digital sector, representation of a
Joanne Lockwood: broader demographic, or or is it still the usual suspects? Are we seeing
Joanne Lockwood: a a broader gender balance? Are we seeing a broader
Joanne Lockwood: ethnicity balance? Or are we still
Joanne Lockwood: stereotyping into the traditional candidates? We are
Luke Morrisen: definitely seeing a broader ethnicity balance. Definitely,
Luke Morrisen: I feel. Gender balance, it's on people's radars, but
Luke Morrisen: it's I don't think they've got strong enough initiatives to support
Luke Morrisen: that. I think businesses want to
Luke Morrisen: have a a less of a gender gap. It's probably a good way to put
Luke Morrisen: it. But they're unsure of how they can do that. How can they
Luke Morrisen: attract females or males, whichever whichever way there's
Luke Morrisen: the imbalance. So I definitely fit all yeah. I I
Luke Morrisen: I feel like it's on their agendas, but it's it's so
Luke Morrisen: early into their journey. They haven't really
Luke Morrisen: created them something substantial to onboard them. Like, how how
Luke Morrisen: are they gonna support a a new female developer in an all
Luke Morrisen: male business? Like, what what are you doing to support that person coming
Luke Morrisen: on board? How are you gonna stop all the conversations based around
Luke Morrisen: football or, you know, whatever gender topics pop
Luke Morrisen: up? It it it's Yeah. The lab culture, the Yeah. Grow environment
Joanne Lockwood: sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I I I I'm speaking to more and
Luke Morrisen: more people and especially since setting up the business that lots of
Luke Morrisen: clients come to us and it's something that they want help with and they
Luke Morrisen: want our support on. But I don't know if a
Luke Morrisen: lot of them are actually ready for it. So there are a lot of the
Luke Morrisen: conversations we've had. I'm like, are are you are you saying it because it's a
Luke Morrisen: tick box exercise, or are you actually truly needing to change
Luke Morrisen: this because the culture is so bad and because you want the business to evolve?
Luke Morrisen: So it's it's digging down on on that topic and really
Luke Morrisen: understanding their needs and their situation. I am worried
Luke Morrisen: that some companies do it as a tick box exercise, which is a bit sad,
Luke Morrisen: but I've spoken to some brilliant companies the last few months that are it is
Luke Morrisen: part of their agenda, and they're driven to change. So I I feel like
Luke Morrisen: it's moving in the right direction. I don't know how, I mean, don't know
Luke Morrisen: how you would see it from from when you were working within that world,
Luke Morrisen: but I it's probably changed a lot. I think it I think it mirrors
Joanne Lockwood: what what you're saying is there's a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: willingness out there, but a lot of it is, I would say, passive.
Joanne Lockwood: They're kind of expecting it to fix itself, or they're just magically
Joanne Lockwood: expecting more women, for example, to apply for a role and they don't, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: well, okay. No worries. We'll just hire one of the men. Mhmm. So it's a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of passive. There's not a lot of what we call active, deliberate
Joanne Lockwood: targeting, you know, positive action campaigns, looking at their recruitment
Joanne Lockwood: marketing, their employer brand, sorting out their own culture first,
Joanne Lockwood: and having honest conversations with young women saying, it's a bit of a bit of
Joanne Lockwood: a lad culture at the moment. We're trying to change it. We need your help.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Are you prepared to give it a go with us and, and work with
Joanne Lockwood: us on this? You have our we have your back. Nobody wants to be the
Joanne Lockwood: first, and that's that's the tough one, isn't it? If you're Yeah. Feel brought as
Joanne Lockwood: the first and the only. We see so many examples of women coming into
Joanne Lockwood: those environments, and then it's it's just not fair on them. The
Joanne Lockwood: culture isn't evolving around them. That's that's that's the point that needs
Luke Morrisen: to be made. It's like when you do when you do change the culture and
Luke Morrisen: when you do start becoming more inclusive and thinking outside of
Luke Morrisen: the realms of what they deem as norm and hiring some good
Luke Morrisen: talented female engineers or, you know, whatever that
Luke Morrisen: inclusive piece that's missing is how is that person
Luke Morrisen: gonna feel when they join this business? Are you are you just trialing it
Luke Morrisen: out to then make the people got to understand,
Luke Morrisen: these aren't just CVs. They're actual people behind these CVs. So you
Luke Morrisen: may have an initiative. You may wanna bring some females on board. But once
Luke Morrisen: you do bring one on, it's almost like trial and error. It's like,
Luke Morrisen: that's not that's not the right way to be doing it. The when you mentioned
Luke Morrisen: to me just then, you kinda said, like, look, it's
Luke Morrisen: it's that has a real honest conversation. We need your help. We are
Luke Morrisen: struggling. We want to do this. We want you to run with it. That's the
Luke Morrisen: best type of conversation you can have with somebody in that situation because they're
Luke Morrisen: they're showing they're vulnerable. They know they've got a problem, and they're looking for help
Luke Morrisen: and support to get them through this period. My piece of advice
Luke Morrisen: would be hire more than 1 at one go. Hire hire
Luke Morrisen: a select range of people all at once, all different
Luke Morrisen: ethnicities, female, gender, whatever. That's what
Luke Morrisen: I would do. But don't just hire one person as a trial and error piece
Luke Morrisen: and see if it works. And then, you know, because there's a lot of change
Luke Morrisen: and there's a lot of work to do in the background to make sure that
Luke Morrisen: individual feels safe and they feel comfortable and they they feel that
Luke Morrisen: they're wanted and that they're needed. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: It's you say if you bring several people in together,
Joanne Lockwood: even if it's 1 woman and 2 men, you're
Joanne Lockwood: diluting the norm. You're disrupting the current
Joanne Lockwood: culture and creating a new culture by just by the number of people. So,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I think if you start day 1 and you're the only one, if you
Joanne Lockwood: start day 1 and you're one of 5, then you have a chance to
Joanne Lockwood: have new new allegiances. You can build bonds and and and relationship with those people
Joanne Lockwood: as well. Yeah. So, yeah, it's it doesn't necessarily have to be 5 women, but
Luke Morrisen: No. No. Absolutely. And they're people. Yeah. They're the future of the next
Luke Morrisen: generation of the business. Right? So if if they're all onboarded together and
Luke Morrisen: it's not just one singular, it's a group of new employees
Luke Morrisen: and they're all together there. And if you match the culture, and this
Luke Morrisen: is this is what's really important is making sure you find the right people for
Luke Morrisen: the right culture. If you can match the right people, not just the
Luke Morrisen: CV to fill a void, like, that's what we try and do is, like, that
Luke Morrisen: this you've spoke to me about your culture. This is what your this is what
Luke Morrisen: works inside for this person could benefit and actually the culture is
Luke Morrisen: good for them and they, you know, vice versa. They're on that journey
Luke Morrisen: together. So 5 years down the line, the norm of you know, that's the
Luke Morrisen: norm for them. All the people who have been in the business long standing prior
Luke Morrisen: may have left, and then you there's more people coming through the ranks. That's how
Luke Morrisen: culture changes. You can't change it overnight. It is
Luke Morrisen: a long lengthy process, but you've got to stay committed and you've
Luke Morrisen: got to be humble enough to accept what's going what's working and
Luke Morrisen: what's not. I mean, you yeah. You got it's gotta be committed. I agree. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: For sure. Luke, it's been absolutely fascinating. You know, I said at the
Joanne Lockwood: beginning when we're in the green room that about an hour and I'd say, well,
Joanne Lockwood: what a fantastic conversation. And I was right. It has been amazing. How can
Joanne Lockwood: people get a hold of you? Sure. So we I guess the
Luke Morrisen: best page would be on our our website. So it's
Luke Morrisen: www.holistx.io. That's
Luke Morrisen: holistx.io. Catch us
Luke Morrisen: on LinkedIn. If you're looking for work or struggling with
Luke Morrisen: internally for culture, I'm always happy to help and have conversations.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Or if you wanna share your neurodiversity
Joanne Lockwood: and experience with ADHD, your alcohol, absentee,
Joanne Lockwood: coffee problems like we have today, reach out to either of us. We're we're both,
Joanne Lockwood: accomplished experts on, on absence of,
Joanne Lockwood: of, I don't know, performance performance changing drugs, I guess they
Joanne Lockwood: are, alcohol and and caffeine.
Joanne Lockwood: Luke, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much
Joanne Lockwood: for your time. Thank you, Jo. As we bring
Joanne Lockwood: this conversation to a close, I want to express my
Joanne Lockwood: deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing
Joanne Lockwood: community, driving real change. Share this journey with
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Joanne Lockwood: that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a
Joanne Lockwood: vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.