WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:11.004 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:11.004 --> 00:00:14.525 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm 3 00:00:14.525 --> 00:00:18.230 Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into 4 00:00:18.230 --> 00:00:21.930 the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:22.150 --> 00:00:25.990 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.990 --> 00:00:29.814 world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? 7 00:00:30.035 --> 00:00:33.875 You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.875 --> 00:00:37.470 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.470 --> 00:00:41.310 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.310 --> 00:00:45.145 in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:45.145 --> 00:00:48.905 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.905 --> 00:00:52.090 inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:52.630 --> 00:00:55.590 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.590 --> 00:00:58.615 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.395 --> 00:01:02.935 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.795 --> 00:01:07.530 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.530 --> 00:01:10.990 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.615 --> 00:01:18.375 And today is episode 132 with 19 00:01:18.375 --> 00:01:22.155 the title, inclusivity in the digital 20 00:01:22.215 --> 00:01:25.710 age. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to 21 00:01:25.710 --> 00:01:28.930 welcome Luke Morrison. Luke is a technology 22 00:01:29.470 --> 00:01:33.265 and digital recruitment specialist. And when I asked 23 00:01:33.265 --> 00:01:36.625 Luke to describe his superpower, he said, it is his 24 00:01:36.625 --> 00:01:40.225 resilience and transformative ability to turn 25 00:01:40.225 --> 00:01:43.630 personal challenges into empowering opportunities. 26 00:01:44.570 --> 00:01:48.410 Hello, Luke. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you 27 00:01:48.410 --> 00:01:50.510 very much for having me. What an intro. 28 00:01:53.304 --> 00:01:56.104 We're just looking forward to this because, we've been chatting with the green room and 29 00:01:56.104 --> 00:01:59.670 it's you've got a fantastic story, and I can't wait to 30 00:01:59.670 --> 00:02:03.270 hear it myself in detail and also for our guest as well. So, 31 00:02:03.270 --> 00:02:06.090 Luke, Inclusivity in the Digital Age. 32 00:02:07.045 --> 00:02:10.725 Tell me more. Sure. So I guess it really 33 00:02:10.725 --> 00:02:14.470 just comes down to a bit of my backstory and kind of 34 00:02:14.550 --> 00:02:17.990 what happened when I was younger growing up and and the life that I led 35 00:02:17.990 --> 00:02:21.830 and moving into the world of recruitment and being a father. 36 00:02:21.830 --> 00:02:25.485 So is there's lots to it. There's lots of moving parts, and 37 00:02:25.485 --> 00:02:29.165 I've kind of feel the journey of 38 00:02:29.165 --> 00:02:32.890 being at school was was not great for me. The challenges I had, 39 00:02:32.890 --> 00:02:36.570 not understanding myself truly and deeply to 40 00:02:36.570 --> 00:02:40.255 then working my way up into lots of different roles 41 00:02:40.975 --> 00:02:44.735 outside of recruitment, becoming a father, having a son who's 42 00:02:44.735 --> 00:02:48.550 neurodiverse, having a daughter. Kind of now, I'm at 43 00:02:48.550 --> 00:02:51.190 this point in my life where I want to learn more and I want to 44 00:02:51.190 --> 00:02:54.995 give back to the community out there. And I I guess for me, the 45 00:02:54.995 --> 00:02:58.834 biggest part is is learning myself and learning on this journey, but also 46 00:02:58.834 --> 00:03:02.515 helping people like I'm helping my children at the moment understand 47 00:03:02.515 --> 00:03:06.230 who they are and how they can progress themselves and how they cannot 48 00:03:06.230 --> 00:03:09.990 have limiting beliefs really. But you're one of those children who are 49 00:03:09.990 --> 00:03:13.590 messing around and not learning and in the in the bottom 50 00:03:13.590 --> 00:03:17.335 set put in the sort of the no hope of class. Was that 51 00:03:17.335 --> 00:03:21.015 was that you, was it? Absolutely. Unfortunately, yeah, it was. 52 00:03:21.015 --> 00:03:24.590 In in all honesty, I was I was never very good at 53 00:03:24.590 --> 00:03:28.030 school. It's not the environment that I learned well in. Sat sat 54 00:03:28.030 --> 00:03:31.615 down, being spoken to for an hour, then moving on to the next 55 00:03:31.615 --> 00:03:35.215 class, being spoken to about stuff that really didn't 56 00:03:35.215 --> 00:03:38.575 engage me was not the right environment for me to learn. And like many 57 00:03:38.575 --> 00:03:42.080 people, my wife is complete opposite. She loves learning in that 58 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:45.599 environment. My daughter's the same. But me and my son, we are very 59 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.444 similar where we would get distracted, 60 00:03:49.665 --> 00:03:53.345 disruptive, need to need to just set ourselves out of an 61 00:03:53.345 --> 00:03:56.939 environment. And, yeah, unfortunately, I was the kid that 62 00:03:57.080 --> 00:03:59.980 didn't learn well at school, didn't get any of my GCSEs, 63 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:04.985 not for not for not wanting them. I definitely wanted to do well at school, 64 00:04:04.985 --> 00:04:08.285 and I never bunked off school like I was always present, but 65 00:04:08.745 --> 00:04:12.584 I just I just couldn't it wasn't the right environment for me to excel 66 00:04:12.584 --> 00:04:16.250 in, and I've seen a lot in that in my son's journey and and it's 67 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:20.010 it's something that I've become quite aware of now. But do was 68 00:04:20.010 --> 00:04:23.695 there a particular age that you discovered this or was it 69 00:04:23.695 --> 00:04:27.455 right from infant school, if you like, year 1? Age 70 00:04:27.455 --> 00:04:31.130 of discovering that school wasn't the right environment for me. Yeah. Yeah. At what 71 00:04:31.130 --> 00:04:34.970 point did you realize that you you just couldn't learn in 72 00:04:34.970 --> 00:04:38.685 in a traditional or contemporary way at at school, the same 73 00:04:38.685 --> 00:04:41.645 way that all your children I I know this sounds a bit odd, but I 74 00:04:41.645 --> 00:04:45.400 think I actually think it was probably probably my 75 00:04:45.400 --> 00:04:49.180 late twenties that I found I realized that. I know that sounds a bit strange. 76 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.680 I I always thought, and I'll be completely honest, I I thought that I 77 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:56.445 was really stupid, really dumb because I didn't do 78 00:04:56.445 --> 00:04:59.805 well at school. I'd never do well in my career as I got older. 79 00:04:59.805 --> 00:05:03.170 So I I left school with no g s no 80 00:05:03.170 --> 00:05:06.770 GCSEs. I didn't go into upper education. I went 81 00:05:06.770 --> 00:05:09.510 straight into a building site, working on-site, 82 00:05:10.225 --> 00:05:13.985 worked as a roofer, as a landscaper, as a tree surgeon. And it 83 00:05:13.985 --> 00:05:17.270 wasn't until I had my children where I thought, right, I need to be a 84 00:05:17.430 --> 00:05:21.110 provider, and I want I want something different for my family now. So that's 85 00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:24.870 kind of where I started exploring other avenues and after a few years, 86 00:05:24.870 --> 00:05:28.325 got into recruitment. And it wasn't until I was in my late 87 00:05:28.325 --> 00:05:32.005 twenties where I thought, actually, I'm not stupid. I 88 00:05:32.245 --> 00:05:35.530 it okay. I learn in a different way and I'll and I have to be 89 00:05:35.530 --> 00:05:39.290 a hands on practical or a visual learner, but it doesn't mean that I'm 90 00:05:39.290 --> 00:05:43.130 stupid. And then when my son was born and as he got older, I 91 00:05:43.130 --> 00:05:46.925 started seeing similar traits as to it was like a mini me. I mean, 92 00:05:46.925 --> 00:05:50.605 he looks just like me. He acts just like me. And it's kinda I 93 00:05:50.605 --> 00:05:54.400 kinda realized again, he's not a bad kid at 94 00:05:54.400 --> 00:05:58.180 all. He just struggles to learn in that environment. And it kind of solidified 95 00:05:58.320 --> 00:06:02.145 exactly how I felt when I first discovered that in my twenties. 96 00:06:02.685 --> 00:06:05.725 And it kind of kicked off from there, really, and that's kind of set me 97 00:06:05.725 --> 00:06:09.530 on this this new journey and the trajectory of supporting 98 00:06:09.530 --> 00:06:13.130 people that are struggling and helping helping 99 00:06:13.130 --> 00:06:16.605 people become aware of the differences in how they 100 00:06:16.605 --> 00:06:20.445 learn and how they interact with people. And it it doesn't you shouldn't just label 101 00:06:20.445 --> 00:06:24.045 them straight away. Look, you know, you you can't sit and you 102 00:06:24.045 --> 00:06:27.840 can't do this this written test within an hour. So you're 103 00:06:27.840 --> 00:06:31.600 branded as dumb. That's kinda how I felt when I was younger. But now 104 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.866 I realize that I can do it. I just need to do it in a 105 00:06:34.866 --> 00:06:38.484 different way, and it's exactly how my son learns as well. Yeah. We went 106 00:06:38.484 --> 00:06:42.101 through a journey with Arslan now discovering that, he has a form of 107 00:06:42.101 --> 00:06:45.500 dyslexia and some other complications within that kind of reading 108 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.580 and processing ability. So, yeah, we we discovered that probably 109 00:06:50.280 --> 00:06:53.905 when he was about 10 or 11, but having spent many 110 00:06:53.905 --> 00:06:57.585 years trying to get him to learn to read and not 111 00:06:57.585 --> 00:07:00.945 having much luck and eventually getting diagnosed. And, 112 00:07:01.665 --> 00:07:04.370 yeah, he was at private school at the time, and the private school basically sort 113 00:07:04.370 --> 00:07:08.130 of said to us that they they weren't the best place for him. I think 114 00:07:08.130 --> 00:07:11.735 they were worried it was gonna bring their grade average down if he wasn't 115 00:07:11.735 --> 00:07:15.355 able to pass his exam. So we ended up pulling them both out of school, 116 00:07:15.815 --> 00:07:19.000 both our children. But, yeah, it it's it's quite a stressful time as a parent, 117 00:07:19.080 --> 00:07:22.540 feeling like your your child isn't isn't responding 118 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.000 in in a way you hope they would. Yeah. Yeah. And that we I mean, 119 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.745 the the educational system at the moment, I feel is is struggling 120 00:07:30.745 --> 00:07:34.265 in that sense. My my son was at a school before he 121 00:07:34.265 --> 00:07:38.030 moved and he liked the people there, kind of 122 00:07:38.030 --> 00:07:41.870 got in with the wrong crowd similar to when I was younger, which then 123 00:07:41.870 --> 00:07:45.230 just had a bit of a snowball effect onto his behavior and his 124 00:07:45.230 --> 00:07:48.705 learning abilities and his contributions to class. 125 00:07:49.245 --> 00:07:53.025 And my wife's been battling we've been battling with the council, 126 00:07:53.164 --> 00:07:56.690 the West Birch Council, to try and get him EHCP, 127 00:07:56.990 --> 00:07:59.950 try and get on board with SENCO and try and get him some extra help 128 00:07:59.950 --> 00:08:03.710 here inside of school, which is it's actually shocking 129 00:08:03.710 --> 00:08:07.135 how much of a challenge that's been. It's been really draining on my wife. I 130 00:08:07.135 --> 00:08:10.655 mean, it's a lot of admin, so I'm not very good on the admin side. 131 00:08:10.655 --> 00:08:14.380 So it's the role that she's taken with this. And it's just quite baffling 132 00:08:14.440 --> 00:08:18.280 how hard it is to get somebody that really needs to support. And, 133 00:08:18.280 --> 00:08:22.039 unfortunately, it comes down to budget at the end of the day. And for 134 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:25.885 and I understand it, but it's when it's when you're in that 135 00:08:25.885 --> 00:08:29.645 position and it's your child, it's so frustrating to know that the 136 00:08:29.645 --> 00:08:33.280 needs of your child aren't being met just because of a budget. So, yeah, 137 00:08:33.280 --> 00:08:36.640 we've we've been through a big ordeal with that. Fortunately, he's moved schools 138 00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:40.400 and he's been given the grant that he needs for the extra support 139 00:08:40.400 --> 00:08:43.875 and the extra help within school and within the education, and 140 00:08:43.875 --> 00:08:47.315 he's absolutely flying now. I mean, he he's loving it and he's getting 141 00:08:47.315 --> 00:08:51.120 grades that he'd never thought he could have achieved without that extra 142 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:54.880 bit of support and it kind of it resonates with me and when I was 143 00:08:54.880 --> 00:08:57.925 younger because I never had that support, you know, neurodiversity, 144 00:08:58.625 --> 00:09:02.385 ADHD, I haven't been formally assessed because I'm 145 00:09:02.385 --> 00:09:06.040 on the waiting list for that. But every test that we've done for 146 00:09:06.040 --> 00:09:09.640 my son and submitted, my wife's gone, Luke, that's you. That's you. 147 00:09:09.640 --> 00:09:12.760 That's you. That's you. I mean, me and my wife's been together 18 years. She 148 00:09:12.760 --> 00:09:16.215 knows me better than anyone. So back then, I thought I was just really 149 00:09:16.215 --> 00:09:20.055 disruptive and I was thick and I would never amount to doing anything 150 00:09:20.055 --> 00:09:23.870 special in a career. And now I see my son going through that, and it's 151 00:09:23.870 --> 00:09:27.390 just given me a hope now that he's not gonna have that limiting 152 00:09:27.390 --> 00:09:31.230 belief. He knows that his environment needs to be right for him to 153 00:09:31.230 --> 00:09:34.295 excel. Quite common, from what I understand, for people 154 00:09:34.834 --> 00:09:38.595 to realize something about themselves when they're helping 155 00:09:38.595 --> 00:09:42.080 their children through it. That's I've you're not the 1st person to mention that to 156 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.700 me. It's it's kind of it's a way of getting the diagnosis without 157 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.200 getting a diagnosis. You Yeah. You just go hang on a minute. That's me as 158 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.005 well. Yeah. I guess I guess you see so many similarities in your children and 159 00:09:53.005 --> 00:09:56.845 yourselves. You bring them up how you've been brought up and you raise 160 00:09:56.845 --> 00:10:00.449 them with the same morals and values as yourself. So, I mean, it's 161 00:10:00.449 --> 00:10:04.290 easy because he looks like a mini me. It's I was just almost like looking 162 00:10:04.290 --> 00:10:07.644 at a younger version of me. But, yeah, I I I see it so much. 163 00:10:07.704 --> 00:10:11.485 My daughter is very much like my wife. She's very academically switched on. 164 00:10:11.545 --> 00:10:15.260 She finds it extremely easy to to learn in a in a 165 00:10:15.260 --> 00:10:19.020 school setting. I mean, if you look around my house at the moment, she's she 166 00:10:19.020 --> 00:10:22.595 actually wants to be a teacher, and she's got she does mini virtual 167 00:10:22.595 --> 00:10:26.275 classes to a fake audience, you know, she's 10 nearly 11 168 00:10:26.275 --> 00:10:29.959 years old and that's that's who she is and that's how how 169 00:10:29.959 --> 00:10:33.560 she wants to progress her career and that's what she wants to do when she's 170 00:10:33.560 --> 00:10:37.160 older, which is great. It's very much like my wife. So we see very 171 00:10:37.160 --> 00:10:40.835 similar traits in both my son and and my 172 00:10:40.835 --> 00:10:44.675 daughter. Oh, that's fantastic. I I love that. So you you left 173 00:10:44.675 --> 00:10:48.339 school Mhmm. As you said, without any qualifications as 174 00:10:48.339 --> 00:10:51.940 such. Yeah. Or not ones you were proud of. What 175 00:10:51.940 --> 00:10:55.540 happened then? You you you'd say you went to the building site. You started 176 00:10:55.540 --> 00:10:59.195 doing stuff. Yeah. So I I actually left home at 15. 177 00:10:59.575 --> 00:11:03.095 So right just just before my exams and 178 00:11:03.095 --> 00:11:06.630 GCSEs were kicking off, I left home. I was kind of raised on 179 00:11:06.630 --> 00:11:10.149 farms when I was younger. It was it was hard graft as as a child. 180 00:11:10.149 --> 00:11:13.830 I mean, looking back, it's a fantastic life to live, but when you're in it 181 00:11:13.830 --> 00:11:17.595 and you're a teenager and you've made loads of friends at school and they're 182 00:11:17.595 --> 00:11:21.375 all going out seeing their friends and kind of building that friendship 183 00:11:21.435 --> 00:11:25.240 circle when I'm on the farm working and supporting my parents, well, 184 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:28.920 my my mom, it's it's quite challenging. And I 185 00:11:28.920 --> 00:11:32.625 I sort of kicked off a bit, and I needed to get out. And so 186 00:11:32.625 --> 00:11:36.005 I left home at 15, sofa surf for a little bit. 187 00:11:36.385 --> 00:11:39.825 I ended up my mom doesn't actually know this, but I ended up living on 188 00:11:39.825 --> 00:11:42.810 the streets for a for a couple of weeks while I was trying to find 189 00:11:42.810 --> 00:11:46.510 somewhere to live. So, you know, I lived a bit of a life 190 00:11:46.570 --> 00:11:50.325 up until finding I actually found music at the 191 00:11:50.325 --> 00:11:54.084 age of 17. Moved to Swindon, I was working 192 00:11:54.084 --> 00:11:57.810 as a roofer, and I was DJing at the weekends and in the 193 00:11:57.810 --> 00:12:01.410 evenings, and that was kind of a bit of a self discovery mode. I've I've 194 00:12:01.410 --> 00:12:05.145 made quite a lot of friends that are older. My par girlfriend at the time 195 00:12:05.145 --> 00:12:08.985 was nearly double my age. So I kind of started learning 196 00:12:08.985 --> 00:12:12.105 from others and seeing how they were kicking on with their career and what they 197 00:12:12.105 --> 00:12:15.610 were doing. It was all quite inspiring. And then I met my wife, 198 00:12:15.930 --> 00:12:19.710 I was 8 18, 19, moved back to Newbury, 199 00:12:20.490 --> 00:12:24.305 where I live, and kind of realized then that 200 00:12:24.305 --> 00:12:28.004 me and my wife were getting quite serious at the time. We then had Frankie, 201 00:12:28.144 --> 00:12:31.425 my oldest, and that's when I realized that I couldn't 202 00:12:32.350 --> 00:12:35.390 I I wasn't where I wanted to be at that point. I wanted to be 203 00:12:35.390 --> 00:12:38.910 a lot further on to support. We didn't have a house or mortgage or anything 204 00:12:38.910 --> 00:12:42.335 like that. So that's kind of what led me into recruitment. 205 00:12:43.035 --> 00:12:46.495 I worked at the BBC for a for a IT cleaning company, 206 00:12:47.090 --> 00:12:50.850 started doing some business development for that business on the side, was engaging with the 207 00:12:50.850 --> 00:12:54.290 likes of ITV. And I was like, wow, this is this is cool. Well, I 208 00:12:54.290 --> 00:12:57.904 enjoy that. I enjoy this side. This is something I never knew I could do. 209 00:12:58.125 --> 00:13:01.644 And then I got a job in in recruitment, and it kind of kicked on 210 00:13:01.644 --> 00:13:05.330 from there. And that's when I started to really believe in myself and believe 211 00:13:05.330 --> 00:13:08.690 that I can achieve pretty much what what I put my mind 212 00:13:08.690 --> 00:13:12.370 to. Recruitment is quite a cutthroat business, isn't 213 00:13:12.370 --> 00:13:16.185 it? It's salesy, quite disciplined. So you are 214 00:13:16.245 --> 00:13:20.005 you are able to adapt to that environment quite quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Because 215 00:13:20.005 --> 00:13:23.209 it's a structure that I excel in. I excel in 216 00:13:24.070 --> 00:13:27.690 I excel in having a day plan and I excel in a real structured 217 00:13:27.750 --> 00:13:30.470 day. Call in the morning, I'm doing this. I know I need to speak to 218 00:13:30.470 --> 00:13:34.115 these candidates, update them on their situation, then I can move on to the client 219 00:13:34.115 --> 00:13:37.815 work. And there's KPIs and numbers to hit. I'm quite numbers driven. 220 00:13:38.035 --> 00:13:41.779 So it was an environment that worked really, really well for me. A lot a 221 00:13:41.779 --> 00:13:45.319 lot of people it doesn't work for, and that's not an environment that 222 00:13:45.459 --> 00:13:49.220 best suited to them. But for me in particular, I was the more I was 223 00:13:49.220 --> 00:13:52.645 doing it, I was getting really quick wins. I got 224 00:13:52.645 --> 00:13:56.165 MVP of the year in in the first recruitment business I worked in. I 225 00:13:56.165 --> 00:13:59.980 became top contract biller and I just it just fueled my 226 00:13:59.980 --> 00:14:03.279 confidence. And it was it's it's everything that I need 227 00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:07.055 in a career to excel. So that's when I 228 00:14:07.055 --> 00:14:10.815 then moved into another business. I became a a leader within that company, 229 00:14:10.815 --> 00:14:14.550 and after 4 and a 4 and a half years, I thought of 230 00:14:14.550 --> 00:14:18.310 of working within that role, I thought, actually, I need something for myself now. I 231 00:14:18.310 --> 00:14:22.024 understand recruitment. I've been doing it for 10 years. So that's when I 232 00:14:22.024 --> 00:14:25.085 braved up and and set up my own business. Wow. 233 00:14:25.464 --> 00:14:28.680 Wow. Jumping off that cliff and realizing it's just a step. 234 00:14:28.920 --> 00:14:32.760 Yeah. That's that's exactly how I felt. I mean, it's I mean, there's, you know, 235 00:14:32.760 --> 00:14:35.640 millions of people that go out on their own and and set up their own 236 00:14:35.640 --> 00:14:39.255 journey, but when you're when you're a provider for the family 237 00:14:39.255 --> 00:14:43.095 and you you've got a good steady income coming in, your 238 00:14:43.095 --> 00:14:46.430 children are happy, and you finally got a house that you were were really proud 239 00:14:46.430 --> 00:14:50.110 of to then make that jump again. It was something I had to talk about 240 00:14:50.110 --> 00:14:53.635 a lot with my wife and really had to dig down if this is the 241 00:14:53.635 --> 00:14:56.595 right choice. And do you know what? Bless her. Straight away, she was like, Lou, 242 00:14:56.595 --> 00:14:58.835 I know you can do it from where you've come from to where you are 243 00:14:58.835 --> 00:15:02.180 now. I've got no doubts. If you think this is the right decision, you can 244 00:15:02.340 --> 00:15:06.020 you should go and do it, and you can do it. So it it's when 245 00:15:06.020 --> 00:15:09.705 you're in the trenches, it's it's not as scary as you think it's gonna be, 246 00:15:09.705 --> 00:15:13.465 but it's making that leap in there and and jumping in. That's that's the scary 247 00:15:13.465 --> 00:15:17.225 part. Right? It is. Yeah. Just it's the fear of the unknown. There's 248 00:15:17.225 --> 00:15:20.370 nothing. We all we all face that. So you're you're in 249 00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:24.670 technology and digital. Is that is that right? Correct. Yeah. So what what what 250 00:15:24.670 --> 00:15:27.730 sort of scope is that? That's that's IT. That's electronics. 251 00:15:28.335 --> 00:15:31.875 It's STEM type. Yeah. It it's 252 00:15:31.935 --> 00:15:35.615 it's a really tough one for me because of my my 253 00:15:35.615 --> 00:15:39.330 differences in character. Right? I'm a bit of a magpie. So I like to 254 00:15:39.490 --> 00:15:42.690 if I see something shiny, I learn to jump like to jump on it. But 255 00:15:42.690 --> 00:15:46.324 what I'm really proud of that I've managed to do is stick within an area 256 00:15:46.324 --> 00:15:49.865 that I've done for 10 or so years. So web developers, 257 00:15:49.925 --> 00:15:53.444 software engineers, digital creative designers, product 258 00:15:53.444 --> 00:15:57.230 managers, That that's the realm that I know 259 00:15:57.230 --> 00:16:00.750 and I understand, and I probably shouldn't start dipping my toe in other areas 260 00:16:00.750 --> 00:16:04.355 until I've completed this part of the business, and then we can add new 261 00:16:04.355 --> 00:16:08.115 parts. But, yeah, it's it's a fascinating industry. You meet 262 00:16:08.115 --> 00:16:11.870 some fascinating people from all spectrums. You know, 263 00:16:11.870 --> 00:16:15.410 you get very introverted developers, you get very extroverted 264 00:16:15.630 --> 00:16:18.690 developers. So I I really enjoy 265 00:16:20.125 --> 00:16:23.805 understanding on the on the initial call. I really enjoy that call. 266 00:16:23.805 --> 00:16:26.685 I I get I've got a good feel of who this person is. I I 267 00:16:26.685 --> 00:16:30.387 understand that they're probably not gonna be, like, to be spoken to in this way. 268 00:16:30.387 --> 00:16:34.068 I'm gonna have to speak to them a bit differently to get them engaged and 269 00:16:34.068 --> 00:16:37.749 to engage with them. And then once I'm on that journey, I can then start 270 00:16:37.749 --> 00:16:41.595 piecing brilliant. Well, that'll be really good for this client actually because that that client's 271 00:16:41.595 --> 00:16:44.975 got an amazing culture that can help support them on their journey or 272 00:16:45.690 --> 00:16:49.209 they're good for the role technically, but that definitely won't be the right business for 273 00:16:49.209 --> 00:16:52.985 them for them to go into because it's not an it's not a 274 00:16:53.065 --> 00:16:56.845 it's not an environment that will help them thrive. So I feel like understanding 275 00:16:56.904 --> 00:17:00.745 my journey and where I've come from and my son's journey, my children's 276 00:17:00.745 --> 00:17:04.500 journey, I can now identify blind spots in candidates 277 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.859 when they're talking about businesses and culture they wanna go into. 278 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.915 So I can, yeah, I feel like I've got a good understanding now of how 279 00:17:11.915 --> 00:17:15.515 to piece that together and and almost put the puzzle in the in the 280 00:17:15.515 --> 00:17:18.335 jigsaw. You said the culture is really important, isn't it? Because 281 00:17:19.210 --> 00:17:23.050 I've got a an IT, bit of a developer background 282 00:17:23.050 --> 00:17:26.109 myself, and you tend to find you're mingling with people 283 00:17:26.964 --> 00:17:30.585 in in organizations who are creative. They're marketeers. 284 00:17:30.804 --> 00:17:34.480 They're HR or operations 285 00:17:34.539 --> 00:17:38.299 or production. And each of those different skills has a different way 286 00:17:38.299 --> 00:17:41.635 of interfacing with each other. And I find sometimes 287 00:17:41.935 --> 00:17:45.395 IT people are stereotyped into this sort 288 00:17:45.775 --> 00:17:49.535 of person with a long, you know, long beard looking like Gandalf locked 289 00:17:49.535 --> 00:17:53.280 in a cupboard, no dark. Yeah. Just feed me coffee and and pizza and leave 290 00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:57.120 me alone. To be honest, that's kinda how I was. You 291 00:17:57.120 --> 00:17:59.920 know? I I didn't want to be interrupted all the time. Yeah. Last thing I 292 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.425 wanted was people people standing over me asking 293 00:18:03.425 --> 00:18:07.265 stuff. Yeah. And it's it's it can be quite a a challenge 294 00:18:07.265 --> 00:18:11.070 for people who are not used to working with people who are artisans and artists 295 00:18:11.070 --> 00:18:14.909 and technically competent and brilliant because they they often do 296 00:18:14.909 --> 00:18:17.890 think differently, don't they? Yeah. Absolutely. I think 297 00:18:18.784 --> 00:18:22.544 it's a really it's a really gray area and it's a thin line to 298 00:18:22.544 --> 00:18:26.145 to tread because you you need companies need those 299 00:18:26.145 --> 00:18:29.960 types of people. Company needs a developer that's really happy sitting 300 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.720 at home, plugging away on their code, maybe working in the middle of the 301 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.475 night and sleeping until 12 o'clock. Some businesses actually need that 302 00:18:37.475 --> 00:18:41.315 and they have many developers or engineers in that environment that work 303 00:18:41.315 --> 00:18:45.160 in that manner. But it's kinda like breaking the mold because 8 304 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.840 clients would be, look, we we need some we need some diversity within the 305 00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:52.060 business. We've got a load of this, but we we need something else. 306 00:18:52.765 --> 00:18:56.525 But once I put that new person into that business, how are they then 307 00:18:56.525 --> 00:19:00.285 supporting that individual if they're the only one that works in a certain 308 00:19:00.285 --> 00:19:03.710 way or if they're the only one that's really expressive and that can communicate 309 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.510 and, you know, is happy to jump on sack all the time and speak to 310 00:19:06.510 --> 00:19:09.790 people, but nobody in the business or nobody in the team wants to talk to 311 00:19:09.790 --> 00:19:13.164 them. It it's a real tough tough line to walk. Like, how do you manage 312 00:19:13.164 --> 00:19:17.005 that? And I guess it comes down from it it comes from the top. 313 00:19:17.005 --> 00:19:20.380 Like, you have to have really hard conversations with business owners and 314 00:19:20.540 --> 00:19:24.220 CEOs and directors of what is their culture, what what 315 00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:27.980 what is your culture? Like, don't tell me what you believe it to 316 00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:31.585 be. Like, actually, what does it feel like? Cause I think you'll have a lot 317 00:19:31.585 --> 00:19:35.285 of interesting conversations where they explain what they want it to be, 318 00:19:35.745 --> 00:19:39.345 but naturally you hear conversations or you look on Glassdoor, you read some 319 00:19:39.345 --> 00:19:43.000 reviews, so it doesn't sound like it's like that. So be honest with 320 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.679 me. And once you can have those conversations and then you can start 321 00:19:46.679 --> 00:19:50.455 introducing them to people that they've they probably would never have on their radar 322 00:19:50.455 --> 00:19:54.295 before, I think that's when the fun starts to happen 323 00:19:54.295 --> 00:19:57.575 because that's when culture starts to change. And I've had it in in previous roles 324 00:19:57.575 --> 00:20:01.020 where I've been a manager of of, you know, a recruitment team in 325 00:20:01.020 --> 00:20:04.700 Reading and and in London, and you you have 326 00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:08.395 these conversations with your team and you get to know everyone on an individual 327 00:20:08.455 --> 00:20:12.055 level. I think it's really important not to have this blanket approach to 328 00:20:12.055 --> 00:20:15.519 management because that's where that's what I've seen in the schooling 329 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.279 system that doesn't work. You treat all of your pupil pupils as the same. They 330 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:23.120 all learn the same. Well, in reality, that is completely false, and you have 331 00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:26.885 to you have to be able to break down barriers. You have to understand what 332 00:20:27.125 --> 00:20:30.725 how does this individual thrive? What how do they like to learn? How do they 333 00:20:30.725 --> 00:20:34.530 not like to be spoken to? And that may be completely different to Jane 334 00:20:34.530 --> 00:20:37.990 that's in across from them, but you have to have that different approach. 335 00:20:38.850 --> 00:20:42.595 And that's when cultures start to change, and that's when you start 336 00:20:42.595 --> 00:20:46.435 introducing some different varieties of people and different learning 337 00:20:46.435 --> 00:20:50.115 styles, and you kinda see everybody excel in their 338 00:20:50.115 --> 00:20:53.910 own areas. And, yeah, that's where I think a great culture starts to 339 00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:57.510 be created. Yeah. Again, without stereotyping anybody here, the 340 00:20:57.669 --> 00:21:01.049 there are people who interface better to the computer 341 00:21:01.815 --> 00:21:05.654 and less effectively to people. But then there are people who are able 342 00:21:05.654 --> 00:21:09.495 to interface between the deep deeply technical people and 343 00:21:09.495 --> 00:21:12.770 the less technical people. So you end up having these layers of interface where some 344 00:21:12.770 --> 00:21:16.529 people can translate from human to machine, 345 00:21:16.529 --> 00:21:19.409 some people can't. So you have to you have to put people where they're where 346 00:21:19.409 --> 00:21:23.205 they're best, how they communicate. I remember I was at an event 347 00:21:23.205 --> 00:21:26.725 once, and I was talking to I think it was a business owner. He was 348 00:21:26.725 --> 00:21:30.230 talking about his IT staff, and he couldn't understand. He's 349 00:21:30.450 --> 00:21:33.670 these these IT guys, they just don't fit the culture of my organization. 350 00:21:34.370 --> 00:21:38.065 They they they grab their lunch. They sit in their car. I wanna take them 351 00:21:38.065 --> 00:21:41.025 to the pub. I wanna do this. I wanna do all this network bonding at 352 00:21:41.025 --> 00:21:44.225 lunchtime. They wanna sit in their car, eat their lunch. They come back in. He 353 00:21:44.225 --> 00:21:46.625 said, I can't cope with it. I think I'm gonna fire them. I'm gonna fire 354 00:21:46.625 --> 00:21:50.370 people who who wanna join him. I said, you really don't get it, do you? 355 00:21:50.670 --> 00:21:54.510 That's that makes them happy. And it's trying to incorporate, as 356 00:21:54.510 --> 00:21:58.275 you say, all those different needs of personality type 357 00:21:58.895 --> 00:22:02.140 to get the best out of people and work with them where they wanna be, 358 00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:05.920 not all not demand they come where you are. Your culture, actually. 359 00:22:06.220 --> 00:22:09.520 Culture has evolved amongst everybody. Absolutely. 360 00:22:10.095 --> 00:22:13.775 Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's probably more of a selfish requirement of what 361 00:22:13.775 --> 00:22:17.455 that individual wanted out of his team rather than what the team wanted out 362 00:22:17.455 --> 00:22:21.130 of each other, you know. Yeah. You see it, especially in 363 00:22:21.130 --> 00:22:24.730 recruitment. I mean, it it's it's got its pros and its cons and, you know, 364 00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:28.544 people have got some great things to say about recruiters and some terrible things, unfortunately, 365 00:22:28.605 --> 00:22:32.304 like many industries, I guess. I've I got into recruitment 366 00:22:32.365 --> 00:22:35.904 fairly late in my life compared to many others around me. 367 00:22:36.309 --> 00:22:39.830 I was in a business where I was the only one with children. I didn't 368 00:22:39.830 --> 00:22:43.190 wanna go out drinking all the time because I've kind of had a life of 369 00:22:43.190 --> 00:22:46.935 alcohol before. And I was kind of frowned upon and looked 370 00:22:46.935 --> 00:22:50.135 at, like, you know, look, you need to you're you're a manager in the business. 371 00:22:50.135 --> 00:22:52.535 You need to be going out with your team. You need to be doing this. 372 00:22:52.535 --> 00:22:56.320 And it's actually, like, that's not what I wanna do. Speaking 373 00:22:56.320 --> 00:23:00.000 to the team, some really enjoyed and wanted to do that. Some 374 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.680 really didn't. So then we started creating a world where, cool. Well, 375 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.835 we'll go and do this this time, and we'll go and do this another day 376 00:23:06.835 --> 00:23:10.595 because, you know, you you start then changing your 377 00:23:10.595 --> 00:23:14.140 environment. You're you're changing needs for other people 378 00:23:14.140 --> 00:23:17.580 and then you you're becoming more flexible. And that's really 379 00:23:17.580 --> 00:23:21.420 really I guess people really value that as a leader and value 380 00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:25.075 that as a business. You know, sales culture and in recruitment, we 381 00:23:25.075 --> 00:23:28.775 had lots of people that were Muslim that didn't drink, and that was a bold 382 00:23:28.914 --> 00:23:32.610 step for a man a manager to go out drinking 383 00:23:32.610 --> 00:23:35.410 with them. And he's kinda like, mate, is that the right thing to be doing 384 00:23:35.410 --> 00:23:38.804 with your team where you got people in there that don't drink? And so, well, 385 00:23:38.804 --> 00:23:42.005 a lot of the people do. It's like, okay. But how do you create a 386 00:23:42.005 --> 00:23:45.845 safe environment where they feel like they should be there and they don't wanna 387 00:23:45.845 --> 00:23:49.549 go home early or they don't wanna attend it? It's it's tough, but you 388 00:23:49.549 --> 00:23:53.230 have to be brave and you have to make some brave decisions. And I think 389 00:23:53.230 --> 00:23:56.990 you've you've gotta put your selfishness to one side and really 390 00:23:56.990 --> 00:24:00.145 listen your team and get to know them. That's a really good point. I I 391 00:24:00.145 --> 00:24:03.985 gave up drinking. I stopped drinking 945 days ago, 392 00:24:03.985 --> 00:24:07.659 not that I'm counting. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible the amount 393 00:24:07.659 --> 00:24:11.500 of life and work business that revolves 394 00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:15.235 around drinking in some way, whether it's your meeting in the pub, 395 00:24:15.535 --> 00:24:19.215 you're watching the football, you're watching the Olympics, whatever it may 396 00:24:19.215 --> 00:24:22.580 be. And suddenly when you don't drink, how you 397 00:24:22.580 --> 00:24:25.080 often feel excluded. 398 00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:28.580 Because why would I want to go and spend an evening with a lot of 399 00:24:28.580 --> 00:24:32.285 people who were drinking? Because after about an hour, it becomes really tedious, 400 00:24:32.345 --> 00:24:36.184 and I can't drink that much water or that much lemonade or whatever it 401 00:24:36.184 --> 00:24:39.860