WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:10.800 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your 2 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.335 sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm 3 00:00:14.335 --> 00:00:18.095 Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into 4 00:00:18.095 --> 00:00:21.715 the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:21.935 --> 00:00:25.695 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:25.695 --> 00:00:29.539 a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives, 7 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.760 you're not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.760 --> 00:00:37.280 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:41.120 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.120 --> 00:00:44.945 in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:44.945 --> 00:00:48.704 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.704 --> 00:00:52.464 inspire action together. Don't forget, you 13 00:00:52.464 --> 00:00:55.425 can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.425 --> 00:00:57.809 jo.lochwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.230 --> 00:01:02.850 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.550 --> 00:01:07.229 So just your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.229 --> 00:01:10.850 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.395 --> 00:01:19.075 And today is episode 133 with 19 00:01:19.075 --> 00:01:22.295 the title, from conflict to compassion. 20 00:01:23.235 --> 00:01:26.990 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Maria 21 00:01:26.990 --> 00:01:30.290 Arba. Maria is a workplace culture innovator 22 00:01:30.910 --> 00:01:34.750 and conflict resolution expert. When I asked Maria to describe 23 00:01:34.750 --> 00:01:38.350 her superpower, she said that is she is able to help people 24 00:01:38.350 --> 00:01:42.024 find healing for themselves even when people 25 00:01:42.024 --> 00:01:45.564 believe they have tried everything. Hello, Maria. 26 00:01:46.024 --> 00:01:49.704 Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. It's great to be back 27 00:01:49.704 --> 00:01:53.479 here. Back here again. Yeah. Yeah. We had 28 00:01:53.479 --> 00:01:56.840 a challenge last time. We we had a fantastic conversation for an 29 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:00.280 hour, 2 takes, and neither recorded properly. 30 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:04.119 And I was absolutely devastated because it was, as I remember remarking 31 00:02:04.119 --> 00:02:07.855 at the end of it, one of the best podcast recordings I've I've ever made, 32 00:02:07.855 --> 00:02:11.535 and I was really looking forward to listening to it back. And I 33 00:02:11.535 --> 00:02:14.895 didn't have it. Scream for your 34 00:02:14.895 --> 00:02:18.735 back. Yes. Well, that's a challenge, isn't it? Can we I mean, 35 00:02:18.735 --> 00:02:22.575 is it that we're meant destined to have another conversation to go 36 00:02:22.575 --> 00:02:26.160 even deeper? You know? I I think I think most definitely because, 37 00:02:26.780 --> 00:02:30.220 the the conversation last time was so fascinating. I wanted to have another conversation with 38 00:02:30.220 --> 00:02:34.060 you. So it's I think it was a bit like a karma kicking in saying, 39 00:02:34.060 --> 00:02:37.819 well, you 2 are destined to have another conversation. So this is it. This is 40 00:02:37.819 --> 00:02:41.605 it. And this I'm I'm sure we'll have more conversations after this 41 00:02:41.605 --> 00:02:45.064 as well. Yeah. It's a joy to be invited. Thank you. 42 00:02:45.444 --> 00:02:49.125 And thank you for coming back. So, Maria, for 43 00:02:49.125 --> 00:02:52.745 conflict to compassion, tell me more about the work you do. 44 00:02:53.700 --> 00:02:57.060 Thank you. Yes. So I work wherever people 45 00:02:57.060 --> 00:03:00.660 gather, and so in workplaces is 46 00:03:00.660 --> 00:03:03.400 a particular interest of mine, 47 00:03:04.580 --> 00:03:08.280 and places of community and family 48 00:03:08.420 --> 00:03:12.085 and, you know, all sorts of places where people gather, there 49 00:03:12.085 --> 00:03:15.845 are going to be tensions and 50 00:03:15.845 --> 00:03:19.305 disagreements and inability 51 00:03:19.525 --> 00:03:23.319 to trust things that pop up that 52 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:26.620 were not expected, you know, expected and unexpected 53 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:31.000 disagreements. And what I've 54 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.060 learned is that we can treat 55 00:03:34.519 --> 00:03:38.174 those conflicts and those disagreements 56 00:03:38.555 --> 00:03:42.094 and those tensions actually is an amazing resource 57 00:03:43.114 --> 00:03:46.655 for us to find a way to become 58 00:03:46.715 --> 00:03:50.415 authentic, to navigate into our common humanity, 59 00:03:51.450 --> 00:03:54.830 and to be our most creative. Whereas 60 00:03:56.490 --> 00:04:00.030 most of what we've been taught is that the minute tensions 61 00:04:00.170 --> 00:04:03.550 arise and the minute we disagree, we're frightened 62 00:04:04.225 --> 00:04:07.685 of the pain so we can become either conflict 63 00:04:07.745 --> 00:04:11.265 avoidant or use a sledgehammer to crack a 64 00:04:11.265 --> 00:04:13.845 nut and and divide 65 00:04:14.945 --> 00:04:18.700 and separate and then go into kind of 66 00:04:18.700 --> 00:04:22.460 legal processes or, you know, processes that 67 00:04:22.460 --> 00:04:26.000 are destined maybe to get some kind 68 00:04:26.140 --> 00:04:29.715 of a re result, but 69 00:04:29.715 --> 00:04:33.555 definitely not healing and compassion and care for our 70 00:04:33.555 --> 00:04:37.235 humanity. A bit of retribution, bit of payback, bit of 71 00:04:37.235 --> 00:04:40.754 you've you've offended me or you've cast dispersions on 72 00:04:40.754 --> 00:04:44.290 my credibility, and I want to make you pay for that. Is is that kinda 73 00:04:44.290 --> 00:04:47.970 how people escalate? Yeah. It's and sometimes it's 74 00:04:47.970 --> 00:04:51.510 as aggressive as that, but, you know, settling scores 75 00:04:51.650 --> 00:04:55.490 and holding people accountable in ways that 76 00:04:55.490 --> 00:04:59.324 are very painful. And sometimes it's fear because 77 00:04:59.324 --> 00:05:03.004 sometimes I I feel that, actually, if I don't 78 00:05:03.004 --> 00:05:06.685 defend myself, nobody's going to. So you don't wanna be seen as a 79 00:05:06.685 --> 00:05:10.530 walkover or pushover. You wanna stand your ground because in the 80 00:05:10.530 --> 00:05:13.409 past, you haven't this time, you want to make a you want to make a 81 00:05:13.409 --> 00:05:17.250 big deal of it. Sometimes it's really important for 82 00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:21.009 us to make a stand and to hold boundaries. And, you know, after 83 00:05:21.009 --> 00:05:24.735 all, change generally comes 84 00:05:25.035 --> 00:05:28.555 when there has been some kind of escalation. You know? It's very 85 00:05:28.555 --> 00:05:32.235 rare in places where there are power 86 00:05:32.235 --> 00:05:36.020 imbalances for someone to say, oh, mister 87 00:05:36.020 --> 00:05:39.540 person with the power, could you just change this? And the person came, yeah. 88 00:05:39.540 --> 00:05:43.380 Sure. Of course. But that that becomes problematic, I guess, 89 00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:47.220 if you're you become very entrenched in that that that viewpoint or that 90 00:05:47.220 --> 00:05:50.925 belief. The 2 2 parties or multiple parties can all 91 00:05:50.925 --> 00:05:54.225 be entrenched with their own view. How do we 92 00:05:54.685 --> 00:05:58.045 release our prisoners of belief, if you like, and and get around the table? Because 93 00:05:58.045 --> 00:06:01.830 that's the hard thing is is, letting go of that I 94 00:06:01.830 --> 00:06:05.270 must win at all at all costs or 95 00:06:05.270 --> 00:06:07.770 compromises. Compromise means I lose. 96 00:06:08.950 --> 00:06:12.010 Yeah. So so for me, it's about 97 00:06:12.390 --> 00:06:15.975 going in and remembering that we are going to 98 00:06:16.375 --> 00:06:19.755 just about how much we love each other, how much we cooperate, 99 00:06:20.055 --> 00:06:23.435 how much we share the same ideals or the same purpose 100 00:06:23.815 --> 00:06:27.495 or the same mission. There are going to be times when we don't 101 00:06:27.495 --> 00:06:30.955 agree or when I want change ahead of you. 102 00:06:31.335 --> 00:06:34.290 And the the the important thing to remember 103 00:06:34.830 --> 00:06:38.210 is as soon as a conflict or attention 104 00:06:38.350 --> 00:06:41.950 or disagreement has arisen, change has 105 00:06:41.950 --> 00:06:45.574 already taken place. Something has already 106 00:06:45.574 --> 00:06:49.014 changed. What we need to do is find our most 107 00:06:49.014 --> 00:06:52.775 compassionate selves to figure out how we're going to talk 108 00:06:52.775 --> 00:06:56.375 about it. All we're doing is growing into it. Yeah. 109 00:06:56.375 --> 00:07:00.110 It's, I mean, I I I've I've been in 110 00:07:00.110 --> 00:07:03.410 disputes with people, family, friends, 111 00:07:03.950 --> 00:07:07.490 work colleagues, whatever it may be. And I I sometimes find it really difficult 112 00:07:07.550 --> 00:07:11.150 to to deescalate because because I it's not that I want to 113 00:07:11.150 --> 00:07:14.975 win. I just don't want to be I just don't 114 00:07:14.975 --> 00:07:18.335 wanna lose. I think the difference between wanting to win and not wanting to lose, 115 00:07:18.335 --> 00:07:22.175 and you're hoping the other person if the other person can 116 00:07:22.175 --> 00:07:24.895 can try and meet you on that journey where they they don't wanna lose, but 117 00:07:24.895 --> 00:07:28.250 they don't want to win, It's trying to find that middle ground where 118 00:07:28.630 --> 00:07:32.230 you can both say how you feel without feeling like 119 00:07:32.230 --> 00:07:36.070 you're you're you're sorry because you're not actually sorry. You're just trying to 120 00:07:36.070 --> 00:07:39.665 resolve the conflict. So I think there we have to start 121 00:07:39.665 --> 00:07:42.165 thinking about what do I mean by resolve. 122 00:07:43.025 --> 00:07:46.245 So is the resolve having a third party 123 00:07:46.945 --> 00:07:50.705 who, you know, like a judge or an adjudicator come 124 00:07:50.705 --> 00:07:54.165 in and decide on an outcome for us 125 00:07:54.690 --> 00:07:57.590 that we both obediently uphold. 126 00:07:58.530 --> 00:08:02.370 And and, you know, that is that is generally the way things are 127 00:08:02.370 --> 00:08:06.210 done in our mainstream society. You know, we go to a court or 128 00:08:06.210 --> 00:08:10.005 a tribunal or or there's some senior manager 129 00:08:10.005 --> 00:08:13.605 or somebody that sort of says, well, you know, no. This is how it's 130 00:08:13.605 --> 00:08:17.445 going to be. But I believe that as humans, we 131 00:08:17.445 --> 00:08:21.125 can actually do better. And so, you know, I've spent the last 30 132 00:08:21.125 --> 00:08:23.865 years proving that that when we 133 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:28.700 let go of the need to win, when we let 134 00:08:28.700 --> 00:08:32.460 go of, you know, believing that some kind 135 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:35.840 of result will resolve the conflict, 136 00:08:37.115 --> 00:08:40.875 then we can actually start to see that we're all 137 00:08:40.875 --> 00:08:44.714 human. Sure. We may have differences about the 138 00:08:44.714 --> 00:08:47.695 way we want to go about things, but 139 00:08:48.555 --> 00:08:52.089 you have needs and I have needs. And and 140 00:08:52.089 --> 00:08:55.610 the the simple, you know, the simple kind of 141 00:08:55.610 --> 00:08:59.149 guideline for this is connection before 142 00:08:59.449 --> 00:09:03.225 correction. So what I want us to do and 143 00:09:03.225 --> 00:09:06.985 that's why, you know, there are people like me exist. You know, people that can 144 00:09:06.985 --> 00:09:10.524 mediate and people that can, take that impartial 145 00:09:10.985 --> 00:09:14.745 view is is let's let's meet in 146 00:09:14.745 --> 00:09:18.269 our humanity first. Let's be human. Let's 147 00:09:18.269 --> 00:09:21.870 remember that you need to sleep and I need to 148 00:09:21.870 --> 00:09:24.990 sleep, and you need to eat and I need to eat, and you need to 149 00:09:24.990 --> 00:09:28.670 go to the bathroom and I need to go to the bathroom, and you 150 00:09:28.670 --> 00:09:32.110 need to breathe and I need to breathe, and you want respect and I want 151 00:09:32.110 --> 00:09:35.895 respect. So let's build those layers up first 152 00:09:35.895 --> 00:09:39.415 so we can see each other as human. And 153 00:09:39.415 --> 00:09:42.855 then we can begin rather 154 00:09:42.855 --> 00:09:46.155 than rather than seeing you 155 00:09:46.580 --> 00:09:50.420 as an attacker or a predator or 156 00:09:50.420 --> 00:09:54.020 or somebody I have to defend against, I 157 00:09:54.020 --> 00:09:57.540 see us as humans that just don't know in this 158 00:09:57.540 --> 00:10:01.305 moment. And there's a real beauty in going, 159 00:10:01.305 --> 00:10:04.904 wow. We see this so differently. I 160 00:10:04.904 --> 00:10:08.505 don't know what to do next. Let's just sit in that 161 00:10:08.505 --> 00:10:12.279 stew for a minute together. Yeah. Recognizing there is no one 162 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:15.580 answer. There's no final solution. There's no definitive 163 00:10:15.880 --> 00:10:19.640 outcome. It's around about finding, you 164 00:10:19.640 --> 00:10:23.180 say, the humanity in each other rather than the stereotype or dehumanizing 165 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:28.035 name calling. Attack the situation, not the person sort of thing. It's 166 00:10:28.035 --> 00:10:31.635 it's trying to understand about the issues we're trying to discuss and 167 00:10:31.635 --> 00:10:35.475 resolve. Because I found that sometimes when these in these situations, you you 168 00:10:35.475 --> 00:10:38.355 try and gather your own army, don't you? You want people to agree with you 169 00:10:38.355 --> 00:10:41.839 and sort of like, I'm right, aren't I? I'm right. This this person 170 00:10:41.980 --> 00:10:45.660 this person's against me. If 171 00:10:45.820 --> 00:10:49.260 are you against me or you're are you for me? Where do you sit? Are 172 00:10:49.260 --> 00:10:52.220 you in or out? And that's what we end up doing. I guess that's why 173 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:55.985 we're being out to mediation or adjudication is we we want someone else to agree 174 00:10:55.985 --> 00:10:59.505 with us who has the final the final solution for the final the 175 00:10:59.505 --> 00:11:03.105 final say in all that. Yeah. Well, that's what's interesting. Because the 176 00:11:03.105 --> 00:11:06.945 judge says so. Yes. What's interesting about these pros 177 00:11:07.105 --> 00:11:10.810 adversarial processes where someone else 178 00:11:10.810 --> 00:11:14.410 is going to decide the outcome is now it's even worse 179 00:11:14.410 --> 00:11:18.170 because now I'm competing with you to get the person 180 00:11:18.170 --> 00:11:21.930 on my side. I'm I'm going to tell the 181 00:11:21.930 --> 00:11:24.190 best version of my story. 182 00:11:25.635 --> 00:11:29.095 And and now shall I slip into making you sound 183 00:11:29.235 --> 00:11:32.834 really bad? So so that will divide us 184 00:11:32.834 --> 00:11:36.435 even more because then at the end when the judge 185 00:11:36.435 --> 00:11:40.029 says this is what's going to happen, and we 186 00:11:40.029 --> 00:11:42.290 look at some of the perhaps 187 00:11:43.390 --> 00:11:47.070 suboptimal truths that were told across 188 00:11:47.070 --> 00:11:49.810 that across that meeting, 189 00:11:51.415 --> 00:11:54.235 the the hope for reconciling 190 00:11:55.415 --> 00:11:58.795 so we can get an answer to the problem, but 191 00:11:59.655 --> 00:12:02.475 did we heal? Did we reconcile? 192 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:07.030 Did were we able to go, okay. You know? 193 00:12:07.410 --> 00:12:11.010 That's where we are, and how do we feel about it? So when 194 00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:14.790 we mediate so the distinction for me is a mediator 195 00:12:14.930 --> 00:12:18.375 or a facilitator is not there to make any 196 00:12:18.375 --> 00:12:21.815 decisions. What I do is create 197 00:12:21.815 --> 00:12:25.495 the conditions in which a group of 198 00:12:25.495 --> 00:12:29.149 people, 2 people or a group of people can sit 199 00:12:29.149 --> 00:12:32.769 down and start to talk about something through dialogue, 200 00:12:32.910 --> 00:12:36.589 not debate. And what's the difference between dialogue and debate then? What's the what's 201 00:12:36.589 --> 00:12:40.269 that nuance? So yeah. So this is really important. It's very 202 00:12:40.269 --> 00:12:43.745 much at the core of my work. What I recognized 203 00:12:44.204 --> 00:12:47.964 is that in our mainstream society, the 204 00:12:47.964 --> 00:12:51.665 model of conversation that we've mostly been 205 00:12:52.045 --> 00:12:55.504 exposed to is debate. And the debate is where 206 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.839 the idea is for one argument to prevail over all 207 00:12:59.839 --> 00:13:03.680 others. And we see this in academia, in 208 00:13:03.680 --> 00:13:06.820 the legal profession, in our government, in the military, 209 00:13:07.680 --> 00:13:11.465 you know, and in script writing, in 210 00:13:11.465 --> 00:13:14.985 in the films that we watch, you know, the goody and the baddy and 211 00:13:14.985 --> 00:13:18.745 someone prevails over over everyone else. And so this is what 212 00:13:18.745 --> 00:13:22.365 we've been exposed to without having it explained to us. 213 00:13:22.800 --> 00:13:26.640 Now if I'm in the science laboratory and I want to 214 00:13:26.640 --> 00:13:30.480 prove a point, well, happy days. But if 215 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.860 I use that model when human emotions 216 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.565 are at stake, when how we see each other as people is 217 00:13:38.565 --> 00:13:42.245 at stake, then you can I don't have to spell 218 00:13:42.245 --> 00:13:45.945 out where this leads in our world, in our society? 219 00:13:46.885 --> 00:13:49.785 So I started to realize that there's 220 00:13:50.390 --> 00:13:54.090 another way of conducting conversations, which is dialogue. 221 00:13:54.630 --> 00:13:58.070 And dialogue is where we accept that we 222 00:13:58.070 --> 00:14:01.830 all hold a piece of the answer. So there isn't 223 00:14:01.830 --> 00:14:05.370 anything to win. There's something to build on. 224 00:14:06.125 --> 00:14:09.485 And then we can all participate as 225 00:14:09.485 --> 00:14:11.745 equals in the conversation 226 00:14:13.084 --> 00:14:16.065 where we're we're focusing on 227 00:14:16.764 --> 00:14:20.524 what's the best we can manage, not what's 228 00:14:20.524 --> 00:14:24.280 the best argument. Yeah. I see I see what you're 229 00:14:24.280 --> 00:14:28.120 saying there, and I think what what I've realized 230 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.960 as well, a bit like you about the debate and the dialogue side, is that 231 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.640 much of our conversation is around trying to sell our perspective on 232 00:14:35.640 --> 00:14:39.404 something. Even if it's a case of what it's nice 233 00:14:39.404 --> 00:14:43.165 weather outside. I'm trying to tell you what I believe the weather is. You can 234 00:14:43.165 --> 00:14:46.605 either go, oh, it's lovely to stay or you go, it's it's warmer than last 235 00:14:46.605 --> 00:14:50.260 week, and we can end up with this debate about, yeah, who's 236 00:14:50.260 --> 00:14:54.020 who's more who's more right about the weather from their perspective. And that's that's 237 00:14:54.020 --> 00:14:57.860 what we fall into is perspectives and beliefs, not 238 00:14:57.860 --> 00:15:01.700 objectivity. We could become very subjective through our own lived experience, things like 239 00:15:01.700 --> 00:15:05.055 that. And so we're always gonna cloud for judgment. I think what you were saying 240 00:15:05.055 --> 00:15:08.415 there about this trying to yeah. You're 241 00:15:08.415 --> 00:15:12.014 very polite in not calling it a lie, just a a 242 00:15:12.014 --> 00:15:14.995 story you tell yourself and trying to sell to other people. 243 00:15:15.560 --> 00:15:19.320 Because we can also, if we're not careful, we rewrite our 244 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.080 own version of the truth in our head. We reinforce our our our 245 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:26.680 bias, our confirmation bias, whatever you wanna call it. And then that that 246 00:15:26.680 --> 00:15:30.235 story becomes the story in our head because it's become so 247 00:15:30.235 --> 00:15:33.995 well practiced. And we now get invested in this 248 00:15:33.995 --> 00:15:37.675 version of a story that isn't actually the true story. And 249 00:15:37.675 --> 00:15:41.195 that's another part of this challenge, isn't it? Trying to get back, peel those layers 250 00:15:41.195 --> 00:15:44.940 off. And there's no it gets to a point where there's no point in 251 00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:48.540 trying to debate the original conflict because 252 00:15:48.540 --> 00:15:51.840 everyone's moved so far forward with their beliefs becoming entrenched. 253 00:15:52.380 --> 00:15:55.280 It's about trying to find what do we wanna do next. 254 00:15:56.505 --> 00:16:00.185 So I liked, you know, the the example you 255 00:16:00.185 --> 00:16:04.024 gave about the weather, which seems really innocuous. But a 256 00:16:04.024 --> 00:16:07.464 a really good way of how I would look at that is, you know, you 257 00:16:07.464 --> 00:16:11.269 tell me the weather's a certain way and that, and I say, 258 00:16:11.269 --> 00:16:15.110 well, no. It isn't. It for me, what's really 259 00:16:15.110 --> 00:16:18.470 important is to allow you to fully have your 260 00:16:18.470 --> 00:16:22.149 experience of the weather. It might not be my 261 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:25.585 experience of it even if we're standing on the same 262 00:16:25.585 --> 00:16:29.425 paving slab in the same street at the same moment. How 263 00:16:29.425 --> 00:16:33.105 I experience the world is a result 264 00:16:33.105 --> 00:16:36.705 of everything that ever happened to me from 265 00:16:36.705 --> 00:16:40.129 birth and maybe, you know, maybe even actually 266 00:16:40.189 --> 00:16:43.790 intergenerational stuff that's come down the line. But how 267 00:16:43.790 --> 00:16:47.470 I experience the world in any given moment is a 268 00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:51.165 result of everything that I've ever experienced, and we could be 269 00:16:51.165 --> 00:16:54.925 standing you know, it's like when parents say, oh, I treat both my children the 270 00:16:54.925 --> 00:16:58.765 same way. It's actually impossible. It's impossible. Just 271 00:16:58.765 --> 00:17:02.445 because you gave them the same amount of pocket money or whatever, that's 272 00:17:02.445 --> 00:17:06.150 not treating them the same. How a child experiences 273 00:17:06.610 --> 00:17:10.450 their upbringing is unique to them because they've 274 00:17:10.450 --> 00:17:13.970 also got all the other people that came in their lives and gave them 275 00:17:13.970 --> 00:17:17.510 messages. So for me, it's like how wonderful 276 00:17:18.130 --> 00:17:21.815 or or how terrible that you're experiencing the world 277 00:17:21.815 --> 00:17:25.275 in this way. I'm experiencing it differently. 278 00:17:25.974 --> 00:17:29.815 Wouldn't it be fun for us to examine the gap? Yeah. I'm standing on 279 00:17:29.815 --> 00:17:33.655 this paving slab with an umbrella, welly boots, a big thick coat 280 00:17:33.655 --> 00:17:37.299 for the hood. Yeah. And you're standing there in a in a pair of shorts, 281 00:17:37.679 --> 00:17:41.200 a T shirt, and and sandals, and it's pouring down with rain. Our 282 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.039 experience of that weather is completely different and our perspective is completely 283 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.500 different. Yeah. So So we could find the shared truth. 284 00:17:48.855 --> 00:17:52.615 We could find a so for me, everything is about you can't have the 285 00:17:52.615 --> 00:17:56.295 conversation till you've got a shared truth. And the shared truth 286 00:17:56.295 --> 00:17:59.655 is always observational and factual. It is 287 00:17:59.655 --> 00:18:03.380 not evaluated. So the shared truth 288 00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:07.140 is rain is falling and wind is blowing. So 289 00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:10.580 we could agree that. Now from there, how are you 290 00:18:10.580 --> 00:18:13.720 experiencing that, and how am I experiencing that? 291 00:18:14.740 --> 00:18:18.475 That's the richness of life. Otherwise, we're gonna become 292 00:18:18.475 --> 00:18:22.235 Stepford wives. Yes. So so we want to have the discussion, as 293 00:18:22.235 --> 00:18:25.935 you say, about how I'm experiencing the weather today. 294 00:18:26.395 --> 00:18:30.090 And I can say, understand, oh, wow. I see how you're experiencing that. 295 00:18:30.090 --> 00:18:32.990 It's interesting. I don't experience it that way because of this. 296 00:18:34.090 --> 00:18:37.929 Yes. Yes. Exactly. So It's moving from moving 297 00:18:37.929 --> 00:18:41.450 moving the discussion from what to 298 00:18:41.450 --> 00:18:44.825 why or how I'm experiencing it or why I 299 00:18:44.825 --> 00:18:48.264 experience it or why I believe something than just what I believe 300 00:18:48.264 --> 00:18:51.705 in. And and the interesting thing is this this 301 00:18:52.024 --> 00:18:55.784 for me, you know, I come from a really rough upbringing. Right? 302 00:18:55.784 --> 00:18:59.350 I had you know, it was a it was suffice to say it was a 303 00:18:59.350 --> 00:19:03.050 rough upbringing. And so I'm not sort of, you know, your armchair 304 00:19:03.270 --> 00:19:06.570 liberal kind of, you know, make everything 305 00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:10.390 fluffy and nice. The point is, for me, 306 00:19:10.390 --> 00:19:13.865 is you are on this planet and I am on this 307 00:19:13.865 --> 00:19:17.465 planet, and I haven't yet found a way to defy 308 00:19:17.465 --> 00:19:21.005 gravity and cut you off gravity and send you away. 309 00:19:21.225 --> 00:19:24.365 So whether I like it or not, we share the space. 310 00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:29.309 So I wanna make that joyful. Why would I wanna make that 311 00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:32.929 hateful? Because when I make it hateful, I'm 312 00:19:33.150 --> 00:19:36.929 poisoning myself. So even in my worst 313 00:19:37.150 --> 00:19:40.735 kind of most selfish moment, I find it's 314 00:19:40.735 --> 00:19:44.495 better to wanna share the space in 315 00:19:44.495 --> 00:19:47.875 a generous way. Yeah. Does that of ethos. 316 00:19:48.335 --> 00:19:52.115 Yeah. It's I'd like to believe that I can coexist 317 00:19:52.655 --> 00:19:55.235 Yes. That's true. Planet with people who have 318 00:19:56.070 --> 00:19:59.450 opposing views, distasteful views. 319 00:20:00.150 --> 00:20:03.750 The more distasteful, the more opposing the other. The harder that statement is is to 320 00:20:03.750 --> 00:20:07.510 sort of reconcile. But I think the problem that comes 321 00:20:07.510 --> 00:20:11.155 down to sometimes is when people want to convert you 322 00:20:11.155 --> 00:20:14.995 or or weaponize that belief. I'm I I can stand on the 323 00:20:14.995 --> 00:20:18.195 same page as I have with you, and you believe it's sunny and I believe 324 00:20:18.195 --> 00:20:21.635 it's raining, and we can just laugh about that. But as soon as you're trying 325 00:20:21.635 --> 00:20:25.380 to push your belief onto me, then it becomes problematic 326 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.280 if I'm not buying it. If I don't if I don't buy into that that 327 00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:33.060 reason, then that's a lot of where the woke politics 328 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.740 are coming out these days where you have these 2 2 opposing views 329 00:20:37.505 --> 00:20:40.805 that are seemingly unreconcilable where people want to win 330 00:20:41.185 --> 00:20:44.545 and, and weaponize and change 331 00:20:44.545 --> 00:20:48.065 opinions or gather their armies. Yes. 332 00:20:48.065 --> 00:20:51.770 So for me, the the way that 333 00:20:51.770 --> 00:20:54.750 I measure you know, I heard you say, you know, some 334 00:20:55.130 --> 00:20:58.190 opinions that are really distasteful, for example. 335 00:20:58.970 --> 00:21:02.705 So you can have any opinion you want. What 336 00:21:02.705 --> 00:21:06.245 I'm looking out for is what is 337 00:21:06.945 --> 00:21:10.485 the actual or potential for injury, 338 00:21:10.545 --> 00:21:14.225 loss, or harm if you act on that. And 339 00:21:14.225 --> 00:21:17.605 that's for me, that's the measurement. That's the conversation. 340 00:21:18.600 --> 00:21:22.360 So you have an opinion, and I don't like your 341 00:21:22.360 --> 00:21:25.020 opinion or your opinion hurts my feelings. 342 00:21:26.120 --> 00:21:29.960 That's work for me to do. I mean, I can spend 343 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.645 my whole life having my feelings hurt. If 344 00:21:33.645 --> 00:21:37.025 I perceive, though, that you're about to take an action 345 00:21:37.485 --> 00:21:40.785 or do something that creates injury, loss, or harm, 346 00:21:41.165 --> 00:21:45.005 then, of course, the next thing is we have to decide, is that injury, 347 00:21:45.005 --> 00:21:48.679 loss, or harm real or perceived? If it's perceived, 348 00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:52.980 then we can get into a dialogue and we can do some risk 349 00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:56.820 managing. And, you know, some risk managing is to shut the door in 350 00:21:56.820 --> 00:21:59.400 someone's face or run away. So 351 00:22:00.434 --> 00:22:04.215 nobody needs to put up with stuff that they don't wanna put up with. 352 00:22:04.755 --> 00:22:08.355 In workplaces, of course, you know, that's a whole another part of the 353 00:22:08.355 --> 00:22:11.015 conversation because we have to look at power imbalances. 354 00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:15.940 But but if there's going to be injury, loss, or harm, 355 00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:19.860 then you should expect me to want to 356 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:23.520 ask you about your intentions, to ask you 357 00:22:23.520 --> 00:22:27.125 about the impact you're about to have, 358 00:22:27.265 --> 00:22:30.865 and whether you want to proceed with that. And if if after that 359 00:22:30.865 --> 00:22:34.385 discussion you still want to proceed, then you're going to have to expect some 360 00:22:34.385 --> 00:22:38.145 opposition. Does that make sense? But it's not coming out of hating 361 00:22:38.145 --> 00:22:41.759 you. No. I mean, we're we're I'm just thinking 362 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.539 about the date. You know, it's it's just we're recording this mid October 2024, 363 00:22:45.679 --> 00:22:48.960 and it's just past the anniversary of the, 364 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.960 October 1984 Brighton bombing, the attempt to 365 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.625 take Margaret Thatcher's and the conservative party's lives. 366 00:22:57.565 --> 00:23:01.024 And, I think we're we're both aware of Anthony 367 00:23:01.644 --> 00:23:05.430 Berry's daughter, Jo Berry. Yeah. And she's 368 00:23:05.990 --> 00:23:09.690 advocating reconciliation, and I've I've heard her speak several times. 369 00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:13.590 And she talks about this creating a a 370 00:23:13.590 --> 00:23:17.350 destination planning or destination vision of where you want this 371 00:23:17.350 --> 00:23:20.995 to end and focusing on that shared or acquiesce 372 00:23:20.995 --> 00:23:24.835 around the shared goal of we want our children to live in peace. 373 00:23:24.835 --> 00:23:27.635 We want a society where I can walk down the street. I want this. I 374 00:23:27.635 --> 00:23:31.075 want that. I want that. And we can all agree with those high 375 00:23:31.075 --> 00:23:34.480 level destinations. And it's moving towards 376 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.160 that and and letting go of the the 377 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.700 unsolvable history, if you like. History has happened. It's done it. 378 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.680 We can be sorry or not, but we can't take it back. 379 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.035 And that that's what we wanna sometimes do. That's where the retribution comes in. I 380 00:23:49.035 --> 00:23:52.875 want payback for that thing which stops us finding the dream 381 00:23:52.875 --> 00:23:56.715 or the vision, the future. So, yeah, so I don't want 382 00:23:56.715 --> 00:23:59.535 payback. I want a genuine 383 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.480 expression of regret and remorse and 384 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.080 education for the person who who did the 385 00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:11.840 injury, loss, or harm, and I want them from 386 00:24:11.840 --> 00:24:15.685 their heart out of the quality of connection 387 00:24:15.745 --> 00:24:19.445 that we form to offer something up. Making somebody 388 00:24:19.585 --> 00:24:22.885 do something doesn't mean we change their attitude. 389 00:24:23.345 --> 00:24:26.945 No. No. It it's framing it in a way. I mean, 390 00:24:26.945 --> 00:24:30.410 I I was listening to this some of the news the other day about 391 00:24:30.950 --> 00:24:34.250 that time back in 1984, and the people involved, 392 00:24:35.110 --> 00:24:38.870 they have regret about maybe the loss of life, but 393 00:24:38.870 --> 00:24:42.534 they don't regret what was going on at that time. You know, they were they 394 00:24:42.534 --> 00:24:45.895 were in a a war for one of the better way of describing 395 00:24:45.895 --> 00:24:49.414 it. And they they were part of that conflict and 396 00:24:49.414 --> 00:24:52.955 conflict happens and things, people die. So they don't regret 397 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:56.400 being there. They just regret maybe some of the outcomes of it. And it's it's 398 00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:59.760 it's trying to work out what I want someone to be sorry 399 00:24:59.760 --> 00:25:03.540 for. Again, humanizing the process again. 400 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.520 The loss of life, you know, as you say, injury loss or harm. The the 401 00:25:07.520 --> 00:25:11.355