WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.880 --> 00:00:11.465 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.545 --> 00:00:15.377 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.441 --> 00:00:18.921 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.953 --> 00:00:22.065 inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.145 --> 00:00:25.785 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:25.825 --> 00:00:29.179 a world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:29.227 --> 00:00:33.011 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:33.043 --> 00:00:36.603 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo 9 00:00:36.779 --> 00:00:40.347 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.491 --> 00:00:44.027 Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.131 --> 00:00:47.339 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.507 --> 00:00:50.895 reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.275 --> 00:00:55.089 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:55.137 --> 00:00:55.417 to 15 00:00:55.481 --> 00:00:59.161 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 16 00:00:59.313 --> 00:01:03.085 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 17 00:01:03.625 --> 00:01:07.425 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 18 00:01:07.465 --> 00:01:10.457 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 19 00:01:10.521 --> 00:01:11.405 Bytes. 20 00:01:15.465 --> 00:01:19.187 And today is episode 137 with 21 00:01:19.211 --> 00:01:22.723 the title Talking, Not Telling. And I have the 22 00:01:22.779 --> 00:01:25.735 absolute honour and privilege to welcome Katie Allen. 23 00:01:26.115 --> 00:01:29.523 Katie is a specialist confidence coach and inclusion 24 00:01:29.579 --> 00:01:32.891 consultant. And when I asked Katie to describe her superpower, she 25 00:01:32.923 --> 00:01:36.411 said she loves rummaging around in grey 26 00:01:36.443 --> 00:01:40.195 ambiguity that everybody else hates. Hello, Katie. Welcome 27 00:01:40.235 --> 00:01:43.531 to the show. Hello. Thank you for having me along. This is 28 00:01:43.563 --> 00:01:47.203 amazing. Absolute pleasure. And I 29 00:01:47.219 --> 00:01:50.387 know if you're listening here today, you don't know this, but we've just spent an 30 00:01:50.411 --> 00:01:54.003 hour in the green room chatting away. We've. We've had a fantastic conversation 31 00:01:54.059 --> 00:01:57.467 and I almost wish we'd recorded some of it, but we've still got loads more 32 00:01:57.491 --> 00:02:00.707 to talk about. I'm sure there'll always be things to talk about. Yeah. 33 00:02:00.891 --> 00:02:04.491 Yeah, for sure. So, Katie talking, not 34 00:02:04.523 --> 00:02:08.155 telling. Tell me more. Absolutely. This. It's 35 00:02:08.195 --> 00:02:11.371 become one of my almost like, lifeblood 36 00:02:11.443 --> 00:02:14.371 conversations now, especially in the work of 37 00:02:14.403 --> 00:02:18.151 Inclusion, because it's one of those things. Things that I find whenever I speak 38 00:02:18.183 --> 00:02:21.863 to people about the work that I do, everyone gets that sheepish little look. Don't. 39 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:24.359 Then they're like, oh, are you. Are you going to come and tell me all 40 00:02:24.367 --> 00:02:27.995 the things I'm getting wrong and all the ways I need to be better? 41 00:02:28.415 --> 00:02:31.839 And that's just not my style. I would much rather 42 00:02:32.007 --> 00:02:35.559 have conversations. It's like, this, isn't it? I just want to sit down with 43 00:02:35.607 --> 00:02:39.103 people. I want to talk to them and understand, 44 00:02:39.279 --> 00:02:42.407 like, what's going on for you? How do you see the world? This is how 45 00:02:42.431 --> 00:02:46.041 I see the world. And how can we grow together? So it's 46 00:02:46.073 --> 00:02:49.121 really become, like, the heart of everything I do. I just want to talk to 47 00:02:49.153 --> 00:02:52.801 people and not. And not be telling everybody what they're getting wrong and start a 48 00:02:52.833 --> 00:02:56.473 conversation that inspires some action. Yeah, I, I really resonate with 49 00:02:56.489 --> 00:03:00.001 that. You know this. You walk into a room sometimes as an 50 00:03:00.033 --> 00:03:03.633 EDI dei, whatever specialist you want to call us, and people go, oh, no, it's 51 00:03:03.649 --> 00:03:06.657 the inclusion police. We can't. What we're saying, we can't tell any jokes. We gotta. 52 00:03:06.681 --> 00:03:10.041 We gotta do this. And it's like, no, no, I'm a human being. I 53 00:03:10.073 --> 00:03:13.853 laughed, I pass wind. I'm a human being. I 54 00:03:13.869 --> 00:03:17.453 just want the output to be positive for people 55 00:03:17.629 --> 00:03:21.445 and not at someone else's expense. And that's what we're trying. That's what we're saying 56 00:03:21.485 --> 00:03:25.021 really is exactly. Somebody else shouldn't be less than, because you are more 57 00:03:25.053 --> 00:03:28.701 than. Absolutely that. And then I often find one of the 58 00:03:28.733 --> 00:03:32.565 barriers to being able to have those conversations comes 59 00:03:32.605 --> 00:03:35.981 through when people aren't really sure about what they can and can't say. So then 60 00:03:36.013 --> 00:03:39.697 no one says anything at all. And then. And then nobody really gets 61 00:03:39.721 --> 00:03:43.313 the opportunity and, you know, rummage you around in the grey areas of ambiguity, 62 00:03:43.369 --> 00:03:46.817 right, to just dump all of the stuff that's going on in our brains out 63 00:03:46.841 --> 00:03:50.553 on the floor and just pick through it so we can say, okay, I 64 00:03:50.569 --> 00:03:53.881 know that you see the world this way, but have you thought about, if you 65 00:03:53.913 --> 00:03:57.657 were someone else, it could feel like this. And people have 66 00:03:57.681 --> 00:04:01.481 that moment of like, oh, I didn't realise that. I didn't. I didn't see it 67 00:04:01.513 --> 00:04:05.281 that way. And, and just making that space for people to just, yeah, rummage around 68 00:04:05.313 --> 00:04:09.039 in all of that crap that we all bring with ourselves so that we can 69 00:04:09.087 --> 00:04:12.807 just make better, better conversations and have better interactions. So why do 70 00:04:12.831 --> 00:04:16.035 people get stuck in this ambiguity? 71 00:04:16.695 --> 00:04:20.155 How do they get themselves into this vortex of confusion then. 72 00:04:20.495 --> 00:04:24.151 Yeah, it's a really good question because I don't think that it's 73 00:04:24.183 --> 00:04:27.767 the same for everybody, but certainly in the work that I do 74 00:04:27.791 --> 00:04:31.247 with leaders, it comes from this place of our own frames of 75 00:04:31.271 --> 00:04:35.059 reference that we spend. We spend so much time 76 00:04:35.227 --> 00:04:38.635 kind of, you know, surrounding ourselves with people who are like 77 00:04:38.675 --> 00:04:41.851 us, you know, because we see the world the same way and we have similar 78 00:04:41.923 --> 00:04:45.595 experiences and maybe we've got the same hobbies and we gravitate naturally as 79 00:04:45.635 --> 00:04:49.435 humans to people that are like us, and we don't get the 80 00:04:49.475 --> 00:04:53.067 opportunity to understand difference, to understand 81 00:04:53.131 --> 00:04:56.467 people that have got different frames of reference or maybe have different 82 00:04:56.611 --> 00:05:00.431 experiences or opinions. And it's interesting that 83 00:05:00.463 --> 00:05:04.215 when, when you speak to leadership teams, we talk about psychological safety, right? 84 00:05:04.375 --> 00:05:07.943 And if you want to have A conversation about something business, about the sales 85 00:05:07.999 --> 00:05:11.463 forecast or about this, then, you know, it's really easy to create a space where 86 00:05:11.479 --> 00:05:15.119 we can speak up and challenge. Then you say, okay, how do you feel about 87 00:05:15.167 --> 00:05:18.967 having a conversation about racism? Nope, nobody wants to have 88 00:05:18.991 --> 00:05:22.319 that conversation. All of a sudden the psychological safety is not 89 00:05:22.367 --> 00:05:25.735 there. And for me, that's. That's super interesting because 90 00:05:25.815 --> 00:05:29.553 how can you, as a leader implement your strategy when 91 00:05:29.569 --> 00:05:33.225 it comes to inclusion if as a team, you aren't prepared to have those 92 00:05:33.265 --> 00:05:37.025 icky conversations that make you feel nervous 93 00:05:37.105 --> 00:05:40.281 and a bit, you know, a bit afraid? So if you're not willing to step 94 00:05:40.313 --> 00:05:43.713 out of your comfort zone and have that conversation, how can you put actions in 95 00:05:43.729 --> 00:05:46.817 place and expect the rest of your organisation to do it? So again, for me, 96 00:05:46.841 --> 00:05:50.489 it's about those frames of reference, bringing it back in and making sure you 97 00:05:50.537 --> 00:05:53.805 can have that informed conversation. Are people worried about 98 00:05:54.285 --> 00:05:57.185 getting it wrong or they're just worried about being wrong? 99 00:05:58.165 --> 00:06:01.893 Oh, good question. One or both. Right. 100 00:06:02.069 --> 00:06:05.613 Because certainly what. What I see 101 00:06:05.709 --> 00:06:09.213 is some people are very wedded, aren't they, to the idea of that, the fact 102 00:06:09.229 --> 00:06:12.661 that there is a right and wrong. Right. And actually, nine times out of 103 00:06:12.693 --> 00:06:16.293 10, there's no such thing as kind of right and wrong. It's just 104 00:06:16.349 --> 00:06:20.007 opinions and feelings and experiences and we 105 00:06:20.031 --> 00:06:22.743 get so hung up on the fact that we have to be right because it 106 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:26.223 makes us a good person. I'm doing air quotes for people listening. Like, it makes 107 00:06:26.239 --> 00:06:30.063 us this good person and we get so held to this label of 108 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:33.191 local. I'm a good person and I don't want to say that thing because if 109 00:06:33.223 --> 00:06:36.303 someone judges me, then I'm getting. I'm going to get cancelled and that'll make me 110 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.527 a bad person. And it's really unhelpful because 111 00:06:39.591 --> 00:06:42.799 actually we're all. We're all just ordinary. We're all 112 00:06:42.927 --> 00:06:46.575 imperfect human people and we are going to get 113 00:06:46.615 --> 00:06:50.329 things wrong. Does that make us bad? No, it just 114 00:06:50.377 --> 00:06:54.065 makes us human. So I find that such an interesting thing. 115 00:06:54.105 --> 00:06:57.761 But, yeah, the difference between. Yeah, being wrong and saying the 116 00:06:57.793 --> 00:07:01.553 wrong thing, I think we. We tie those two 117 00:07:01.609 --> 00:07:05.105 concepts together, don't we? As if they are the same thing. And 118 00:07:05.145 --> 00:07:08.841 actually, I don't know that they are. I think we can. We can make 119 00:07:08.873 --> 00:07:11.805 mistakes, we can be wrong and it can be okay. Like, 120 00:07:12.425 --> 00:07:15.871 it's fine. I've had people try and defend 121 00:07:15.943 --> 00:07:19.575 their beliefs and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with their beliefs, 122 00:07:19.615 --> 00:07:22.943 but they form this. They hide behind what we call good 123 00:07:22.999 --> 00:07:26.767 intent. I meant well, but they 124 00:07:26.791 --> 00:07:30.423 often don't understand the impact of their opinions, 125 00:07:30.479 --> 00:07:34.115 their judgement, wherever it may be. Yeah, 126 00:07:34.535 --> 00:07:38.247 I wholeheartedly see that too. And I agree with you that there is 127 00:07:38.271 --> 00:07:41.827 a difference between intention and impact, for sure. And 128 00:07:41.991 --> 00:07:45.779 it doesn't mean that you can't have your opinions, it doesn't mean, you 129 00:07:45.787 --> 00:07:49.523 know they're yours. You, you live the life that you want to live. However, the 130 00:07:49.539 --> 00:07:53.291 minute anything inside your brain becomes a behaviour, it has the 131 00:07:53.403 --> 00:07:57.131 capacity and capability to influence and harm someone else. 132 00:07:57.283 --> 00:08:00.815 And you are accountable for that. Like, that's on you. 133 00:08:01.355 --> 00:08:04.307 You get to make a decision as to whether that's a way that you want 134 00:08:04.331 --> 00:08:08.117 to interact with the world or not. And you have 135 00:08:08.141 --> 00:08:11.813 to understand that you might approach something with the best of intentions. 136 00:08:11.989 --> 00:08:14.813 And I think we, you know, often we can have that analogy of like a 137 00:08:14.829 --> 00:08:17.901 broken arm, can't we? If you, if you bump into 138 00:08:17.973 --> 00:08:21.773 somebody and they end up with a broken arm, like, you may not have 139 00:08:21.789 --> 00:08:25.549 had the intention to bump into them, but you did. And, you know, the 140 00:08:25.557 --> 00:08:28.853 fact that you didn't intend to harm them doesn't make their arm any less broken. 141 00:08:28.949 --> 00:08:32.573 Like, it's still the outcome. So it's just about understanding those two things 142 00:08:32.629 --> 00:08:35.717 can exist at the same time. So you can have good intentions and you can 143 00:08:35.741 --> 00:08:39.525 cause harm and, you know, it's what you then do with it going 144 00:08:39.565 --> 00:08:43.069 forward. Will you intentionally then continue within the world 145 00:08:43.117 --> 00:08:46.789 breaking people's arms and saying things that are harmful, or 146 00:08:46.837 --> 00:08:49.997 will you learn from the fact that that thing happened and you're like, actually, I'm 147 00:08:50.021 --> 00:08:53.173 going to do something differently as a result of that experience. I think that's the 148 00:08:53.189 --> 00:08:56.581 important thing is when we are being accountable for that 149 00:08:56.653 --> 00:09:00.317 impact, it's what do we do with it, isn't it? That's the critical thing there. 150 00:09:00.341 --> 00:09:03.823 And I think what? Well, it costs us 151 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.315 nothing to change. You know, if I learn that a word or a phrase 152 00:09:08.015 --> 00:09:11.823 has negative connotations is problematic, it doesn't cost me 153 00:09:11.839 --> 00:09:15.519 anything to modify my language, learn something new. But too many people 154 00:09:15.567 --> 00:09:19.319 go, it's just so difficult. You can't say anything these days. Oh, come 155 00:09:19.327 --> 00:09:21.715 on, it's just a snowflake. Yeah, it's. 156 00:09:23.695 --> 00:09:27.159 We have these big debates about whether something is racist or not 157 00:09:27.207 --> 00:09:30.759 racist. And if someone says to me, 158 00:09:30.807 --> 00:09:34.647 well, that's racist or has a racist connotations 159 00:09:34.711 --> 00:09:38.391 or colonialism or whatever it may be, I won't 160 00:09:38.463 --> 00:09:42.247 argue about it, Go, really, come on, it's not. I've googled it. I've looked 161 00:09:42.271 --> 00:09:45.975 in the dictionary and it says quite clearly on page two, it's not racist. 162 00:09:46.095 --> 00:09:49.943 And then we're not getting another thesaurus out or another this out or another 163 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:53.727 this, and trying to prove we're right, that I'm not racist, rather 164 00:09:53.751 --> 00:09:57.303 than saying, oh, I never realised the impact of that. You're right. Let me, let 165 00:09:57.319 --> 00:10:00.063 me look into that. But for now, I'm going to park that and not use 166 00:10:00.079 --> 00:10:03.515 that phrase ever again because it doesn't cost me anything. I've just learned, 167 00:10:03.935 --> 00:10:07.631 and I remember there's a particular word used in the song the Mighty 168 00:10:07.663 --> 00:10:10.875 Quinn where they talk about the Eskimo 169 00:10:11.415 --> 00:10:14.959 and it was played on Radio 2 and I tweeted 170 00:10:15.007 --> 00:10:18.487 Radio 2 saying, you do realise that that song you just played on the 171 00:10:18.511 --> 00:10:21.999 radio has the word Eskimo in it, which is deemed offensive by many 172 00:10:22.047 --> 00:10:25.285 people. I never heard it played on there again. I don't know if they took 173 00:10:25.665 --> 00:10:29.273 what I said, but, yeah, if you learn that that word 174 00:10:29.409 --> 00:10:32.005 is offensive to many or is problematic, 175 00:10:32.705 --> 00:10:35.977 use a different word, avoid it completely. It cost you 176 00:10:36.001 --> 00:10:39.737 nothing. Absolutely, absolutely. I can completely agree. And 177 00:10:39.801 --> 00:10:43.537 it's interesting in that we haven't. It's a choice, it's a conscious choice to 178 00:10:43.561 --> 00:10:47.129 use the language that we use. And again, I certainly know in having 179 00:10:47.177 --> 00:10:50.957 conversations with people, if you, if you talk to anyone who puts together 180 00:10:51.021 --> 00:10:54.589 a sales tender and you say, do you know what? If you use the word 181 00:10:54.677 --> 00:10:58.517 investment instead of cost, that you're more likely to get 182 00:10:58.541 --> 00:11:02.357 a positive outcome and people go, oh, that's. That's good, we'll do that. Absolutely. Because 183 00:11:02.381 --> 00:11:05.965 it's got benefit for you. So you can change your language. Absolutely. 184 00:11:06.005 --> 00:11:09.709 When you think it makes sense and you can see the benefit for you. So 185 00:11:09.797 --> 00:11:13.565 if somebody else said, actually, you know, using this word instead of that word has 186 00:11:13.605 --> 00:11:17.237 benefit for me, or, you know, is. Is better than something 187 00:11:17.301 --> 00:11:21.049 else, why can't we just accept that? Like, okay, sure, 188 00:11:21.097 --> 00:11:24.097 that's what you're telling me. I'll believe that. I'll believe that to be true because 189 00:11:24.161 --> 00:11:26.125 we have no problem believing it elsewhere. 190 00:11:27.745 --> 00:11:31.593 And. But language is so ingrained in our 191 00:11:31.649 --> 00:11:35.385 everyday conversations, in our, in our heads. We become very familiar with the way we 192 00:11:35.425 --> 00:11:39.005 speak and we, we often use the same phrases and, and, 193 00:11:39.425 --> 00:11:43.257 and base words often. And there's a lot of it is based 194 00:11:43.281 --> 00:11:46.661 on, on colonialism, racism, life is on 195 00:11:46.693 --> 00:11:50.501 ableism. A lot. The words we use, you know, we throw 196 00:11:50.533 --> 00:11:53.469 in words like, I'm a bit OCD at the moment. You know, no one's a 197 00:11:53.477 --> 00:11:57.221 bit ocd. It's a, it's a clinical diagnosis. I feel a bit 198 00:11:57.253 --> 00:12:00.653 crazy right now. All these kind of things. And we're using this word in everyday 199 00:12:00.709 --> 00:12:04.437 language without truly understanding how that can impact 200 00:12:04.501 --> 00:12:08.109 others. And that's, that's the challenge we've got to overcome, isn't it? 201 00:12:08.157 --> 00:12:10.785 Being open enough to reflect 202 00:12:11.625 --> 00:12:15.273 on our choice of language and how we can improve that? 203 00:12:15.409 --> 00:12:19.089 Yeah, totally. And, and again that comes back to frames of reference, doesn't it? And 204 00:12:19.097 --> 00:12:22.809 the fact that we are all products of our environment and 205 00:12:22.937 --> 00:12:26.245 you know, the things that we've maybe grown up saying 206 00:12:26.665 --> 00:12:29.993 probably aren't the types of things that we're saying nowadays. And it's just about 207 00:12:30.049 --> 00:12:33.785 recognising that think language will always change, it will always 208 00:12:33.905 --> 00:12:37.409 evolve. Even now I get confused because we can use 209 00:12:37.457 --> 00:12:41.081 figuratively and literally interchangeably because literally 210 00:12:41.193 --> 00:12:44.749 sometimes means figuratively now. And that's okay because that's just the way it's getting 211 00:12:44.797 --> 00:12:48.637 used. And it's, and it's, it's just language and 212 00:12:48.661 --> 00:12:52.493 life evolves, right? And we get 213 00:12:52.509 --> 00:12:56.285 on board with it or we don't. And sometimes it's just recognising 214 00:12:56.325 --> 00:13:00.021 that because something comes as second nature or that's just how our brains 215 00:13:00.093 --> 00:13:03.637 process and how we think and the way we refer to things. Being 216 00:13:03.701 --> 00:13:07.349 open to hearing it when someone else says I hear that differently 217 00:13:07.397 --> 00:13:10.903 to you or did you know that we don't use that word 218 00:13:10.959 --> 00:13:14.783 anymore and for this reason and it's just about being okay with it 219 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:18.559 and not being so wedded back to that being right and wrong. Isn't it like 220 00:13:18.607 --> 00:13:21.919 to being right that we have to go back through? Well, the dictionary 221 00:13:21.967 --> 00:13:25.543 definition of the use of they means multiple 222 00:13:25.599 --> 00:13:29.351 people and therefore it's like really, really Is that what, is that what 223 00:13:29.383 --> 00:13:32.983 you're going to hold on to the dictionary definition? Or how about someone 224 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.659 has expressed to you that, you know, they want you to use a gender neutral 225 00:13:36.707 --> 00:13:40.435 pronoun in reference to them because that's what feels right for them. Why 226 00:13:40.475 --> 00:13:44.219 would we, why would we withhold that from them? Just because the dictionary 227 00:13:44.267 --> 00:13:47.891 has something for you. Like is that what we're going to do? But we're living 228 00:13:47.923 --> 00:13:51.755 in a world now where everything we're just talking about here we'll have people 229 00:13:51.795 --> 00:13:55.355 listening today and hello, thank you for listening. Who are 230 00:13:55.435 --> 00:13:59.123 nodding their heads and going, yeah too right. Maybe we've got 231 00:13:59.139 --> 00:14:02.255 people listening, going, God, this sounds like a load of woke BS to me. 232 00:14:02.775 --> 00:14:06.495 God, just get a life, you snowflakes. You know, start, 233 00:14:06.575 --> 00:14:09.415 let's get in the real world here. Just get on with stuff. Solve the first 234 00:14:09.455 --> 00:14:12.795 world problems. Not these, these, these issues we're facing. So 235 00:14:13.415 --> 00:14:17.263 why, why why should people care? I mean, and that's a 236 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.943 good question, right? Because you don't. We don't have to care 237 00:14:20.999 --> 00:14:24.711 as humans, I guess if your life is so beautiful 238 00:14:24.783 --> 00:14:28.383 and comfortable that you don't get misgendered 239 00:14:28.439 --> 00:14:32.185 and you don't have people using language that is 240 00:14:32.225 --> 00:14:36.041 utterly offensive to you or your existence, 241 00:14:36.193 --> 00:14:40.025 then fantastic, that's, that's great for you. Do 242 00:14:40.065 --> 00:14:43.761 you want to continue living in a world where it's all 243 00:14:43.793 --> 00:14:47.405 good for you and screw everyone else, essentially? Like, do you want that? 244 00:14:47.705 --> 00:14:51.425 Or do you want to be able to have conversations and communicate with 245 00:14:51.465 --> 00:14:55.161 people in a way that really opens up, you know, 246 00:14:55.193 --> 00:14:59.009 a community to you? And even if just purely for selfish 247 00:14:59.057 --> 00:15:02.173 reasons. Right. If you are someone who is responsible for an entire 248 00:15:02.229 --> 00:15:06.037 organisation, do you really want to be viewed as someone who 249 00:15:06.061 --> 00:15:09.653 is an immovable object, or do you want to be viewed as someone 250 00:15:09.749 --> 00:15:13.485 who really gets what it's like, as an employer, who 251 00:15:13.525 --> 00:15:17.213 really understands the people that work for you, that really 252 00:15:17.269 --> 00:15:21.069 understands how your clients and your customers see the world? 253 00:15:21.197 --> 00:15:24.925 Like, do you want to be able to engage with people in that 254 00:15:24.965 --> 00:15:28.351 way, or do you want to stay completely 255 00:15:28.383 --> 00:15:32.095 wedded to your own frame of reference and just live there 256 00:15:32.135 --> 00:15:35.663 and live in that bubble? It's a choice, isn't it? You can step outside, you 257 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.079 can learn about people who are different to you because those people will 258 00:15:39.127 --> 00:15:42.479 be in your personal circles, they will be within 259 00:15:42.527 --> 00:15:46.239 your employee teams, they will be on your customers, they'll be in your supply 260 00:15:46.287 --> 00:15:49.591 chain. People exist all around you. Why would we not 261 00:15:49.623 --> 00:15:52.795 engage? You were saying just at the beginning of the podcast 262 00:15:53.295 --> 00:15:56.897 when we started talking, that the 263 00:15:56.921 --> 00:16:00.449 danger is, if we're not careful, is that people live in their own lived 264 00:16:00.497 --> 00:16:03.605 experience. So, you know, we look at the. 265 00:16:04.225 --> 00:16:07.889 Some serious well known influences in this world. I would. 266 00:16:07.977 --> 00:16:11.605 My personal opinion is that they're negative influencers, people like Andrew Tate. 267 00:16:12.105 --> 00:16:15.681 They live in a world, an echo chamber, where they have a belief that 268 00:16:15.713 --> 00:16:18.881 they're doing the right thing. They have an 269 00:16:18.913 --> 00:16:22.619 opinion around masculinity and 270 00:16:22.667 --> 00:16:26.459 femininity, that men are superior, women 271 00:16:26.507 --> 00:16:29.495 have their place for whatever their 272 00:16:29.835 --> 00:16:33.523 opinions are that I find abhorrent. But they have a 273 00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:37.387 belief system and they have a followers and they're not going to 274 00:16:37.411 --> 00:16:41.211 change, are they? And when you polarise your views in that way, 275 00:16:41.363 --> 00:16:44.683 it's very difficult to try and get around the table and have a 276 00:16:44.699 --> 00:16:48.467 conversation. So how do we start to chip away at the edges of the 277 00:16:48.491 --> 00:16:51.631 people who are unsure or being 278 00:16:51.703 --> 00:16:55.355 influenced? Yeah, and I think that for me is the. 279 00:16:55.735 --> 00:16:59.559 The audience that I am most drawn to in the conversations that I have, 280 00:16:59.607 --> 00:17:03.255 because, yeah, there are. There are definitely people who are immovable 281 00:17:03.295 --> 00:17:06.863 objects in this world, and the likes of Andrew Tate are one of them in 282 00:17:06.879 --> 00:17:10.575 the sense that they believe what they 283 00:17:10.615 --> 00:17:14.407 believe, and it serves them to double down on that harder and 284 00:17:14.431 --> 00:17:18.079 harder every time, because that's their brand now. So even if someone 285 00:17:18.167 --> 00:17:21.883 showed them information that could change their mind, they're never going to do 286 00:17:21.899 --> 00:17:25.735 that because they've built a brand on what they're doing and 287 00:17:26.555 --> 00:17:30.379 they play on. My belief is they play into that, because when you 288 00:17:30.427 --> 00:17:34.019 have got, you know, the. What I believe to be the majority of 289 00:17:34.187 --> 00:17:37.763 people, and I guess in Andrew Tate's audience, we're probably talking 290 00:17:37.899 --> 00:17:41.531 young men who feel that their place in the 291 00:17:41.563 --> 00:17:45.403 world is being either threatened or somehow feels like 292 00:17:45.419 --> 00:17:48.979 it's shifting and they're not sure how. When you are part of that 293 00:17:49.027 --> 00:17:52.627 group and you, you know, everyone's telling you that 294 00:17:52.691 --> 00:17:56.483 your identity doesn't matter anymore. There's no place for you be quiet, because we're 295 00:17:56.499 --> 00:18:00.283 going to give voice to everybody else. And then you've got someone like Andrew Tate 296 00:18:00.339 --> 00:18:04.107 who's going, hey, come on over here, because I see you. I 297 00:18:04.131 --> 00:18:07.907 can. I can be someone that you can look up to. I mean, 298 00:18:07.931 --> 00:18:11.755 it's. It's, from my perspective, pretty horrifying. But I can also understand 299 00:18:11.835 --> 00:18:15.643 why people gravitate towards that, because it's making space. It's making 300 00:18:15.699 --> 00:18:19.503 space for someone to flow in, to feel seen and heard and tr. Truly, when 301 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.191 it comes to the work of inclusion, my perspective at least, is like 302 00:18:23.223 --> 00:18:26.735 inclusion is everybody, and it's just not at the expense 303 00:18:26.815 --> 00:18:30.663 of anybody. So it's really about how are we making 304 00:18:30.719 --> 00:18:34.115 sure all of the people that might be feeling 305 00:18:35.495 --> 00:18:39.235 unwelcome, I guess, in spaces that they once were just naturally 306 00:18:39.615 --> 00:18:43.359 welcomed into, how do we. We maintain their presence and maintain 307 00:18:43.407 --> 00:18:46.519 them in the conversation so that they don't have to look to role models like 308 00:18:46.527 --> 00:18:50.175 the Andrew Tates of this world to feel seen and heard. How will we make. 309 00:18:50.215 --> 00:18:53.555 Again, back to those conversations. We need to be talking with one another, 310 00:18:54.415 --> 00:18:57.435 especially around, you know, masculinity, because 311 00:18:58.215 --> 00:19:01.967 when we talk about, you know, the. The hard kind of patriarchal systems 312 00:19:01.991 --> 00:19:05.567 that we're. We're living within, like, that harms men, 313 00:19:05.631 --> 00:19:09.327 too. Like, that's. That's not. That's not a gender thing. It's a. It's 314 00:19:09.351 --> 00:19:12.927 a. You know, it's harmful for everybody other than the 315 00:19:12.951 --> 00:19:16.657 very few people that it was designed to benefit. So we have 316 00:19:16.681 --> 00:19:20.385 to kind of change the narrative so we can have a conversation about 317 00:19:20.465 --> 00:19:23.645 patriarchy is bad for everybody practically. 318 00:19:24.505 --> 00:19:28.121 So how are we making sure that we are understanding what 319 00:19:28.153 --> 00:19:31.929 that means and rallying against that? So it's not about anti men, it's about 320 00:19:31.977 --> 00:19:35.417 anti the system that harms everybody, if that makes sense. Yeah, it was a great 321 00:19:35.441 --> 00:19:39.129 example and I've been watching it evolve over LinkedIn and 322 00:19:39.137 --> 00:19:42.747 other people talk about online on last Friday's episode of 323 00:19:42.771 --> 00:19:46.555 Graham Norton and there was two, two 324 00:19:46.635 --> 00:19:49.667 men, I, I can't remember the names of the people involved, but there were two 325 00:19:49.691 --> 00:19:53.091 men talking about Hollywood superstars, talking about 326 00:19:53.243 --> 00:19:57.043 doing some training about self defence and they were using a mobile 327 00:19:57.099 --> 00:19:59.963 phone as part of their self defence mechanism. And I think one man said the 328 00:19:59.979 --> 00:20:03.211 other man who would use their mobile phone to defend somebody 329 00:20:03.243 --> 00:20:06.979 off. And then the woman who was on the panel, also a Hollywood 330 00:20:07.027 --> 00:20:10.805 superstar, chipped in and said, well, actually this is what women have to think about 331 00:20:10.845 --> 00:20:14.573 all the time. Whatever object they've got to hand, it becomes a potential 332 00:20:14.629 --> 00:20:18.253 defence weapon. And most, most women will hold their mobile phone in a 333 00:20:18.269 --> 00:20:21.389 defensive way if they need to beat off an attacker. And she turned to the 334 00:20:21.397 --> 00:20:24.973 audience, isn't that right, ladies? And the whole audience erupted in applause 335 00:20:25.149 --> 00:20:27.745 and it's certainly resonating on LinkedIn because 336 00:20:28.485 --> 00:20:31.757 we, many people see the world through their own blinkers. They don't 337 00:20:31.821 --> 00:20:34.829 see from a male patriarchal 338 00:20:34.877 --> 00:20:38.559 perspective, they believe they're great people, they feel that they're inclusive, they 339 00:20:38.567 --> 00:20:42.367 don't feel that they're, they're toxic masculinity or anything like that, but they 340 00:20:42.391 --> 00:20:46.239 don't really see the lived experience of others. And that's, that's, we've got 341 00:20:46.247 --> 00:20:49.999 this gap, isn't it, this empathy bridge we've got to try and create. Yeah, absolutely, 342 00:20:50.047 --> 00:20:53.863 absolutely. And, and I think it, I've seen that clip too and I think it, 343 00:20:53.919 --> 00:20:57.759 it's a brilliant demonstration almost, isn't it, that the silence of the rest of 344 00:20:57.767 --> 00:21:01.583 the panel are just stunned into when she says, like, actually when, when 345 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.167 you're a woman, that's something you have to think about. And it's that moment of 346 00:21:04.191 --> 00:21:07.605 like, oh, oh, here we are making a joke about it, but, oh, 347 00:21:07.645 --> 00:21:11.117 okay. And, and that I think that's hugely 348 00:21:11.181 --> 00:21:14.693 important because if we aren't sharing our experiences and really 349 00:21:14.749 --> 00:21:17.973 understanding, you know, the world was created in a certain way, you either fit that 350 00:21:17.989 --> 00:21:21.285 mould or you don't fit that mould. And if you don't fit 351 00:21:21.325 --> 00:21:25.133 into the mould of, you know, of what success or what safety 352 00:21:25.189 --> 00:21:28.525 looks like, it can be really terrifying. But that's 353 00:21:28.565 --> 00:21:32.373 damaging for everybody. Who doesn't fit into that mould? So if 354 00:21:32.389 --> 00:21:34.973 you then play this out, if men are supposed to be like, well, who needs, 355 00:21:35.029 --> 00:21:38.669 who needs a mobile phone to defend themselves? It's like, actually, 356 00:21:38.837 --> 00:21:41.797 a lot of men would probably also be looking for the first thing they've got 357 00:21:41.821 --> 00:21:45.277 to hand as a defence. So here we are making light of, you know. Oh, 358 00:21:45.301 --> 00:21:48.789 yeah, guys don't need, you know, to think about weapons for defending 359 00:21:48.837 --> 00:21:52.525 themselves. Well, they probably do. If you're going to get attacked, you're probably not someone 360 00:21:52.565 --> 00:21:56.333 who's going to naturally, you know, have been trained in jiu jitsu and be able 361 00:21:56.349 --> 00:22:00.133 to leap into action. Like, no, you're going to want to absolutely peg it 362 00:22:00.189 --> 00:22:03.005 to find safety or you're, you're going to be in fight mode and you're going 363 00:22:03.005 --> 00:22:06.673 to do the best you can with whatever is to hand. And making 364 00:22:06.809 --> 00:22:10.465 joke of that is really just reinforcing that narrative, isn't it? Of, you know, 365 00:22:10.545 --> 00:22:13.969 yeah, we're dudes, we can have a fight. Like, can you and should you. I 366 00:22:13.977 --> 00:22:16.889 know that often what we, what we don't do is we don't think about, you 367 00:22:16.897 --> 00:22:19.497 know, we're talking about the other person's lived experience, the other. What the other people 368 00:22:19.521 --> 00:22:22.945 are going through. And we, in the 369 00:22:22.985 --> 00:22:26.713 EDI space, in corporate or wherever we're working, we often talk 370 00:22:26.729 --> 00:22:30.513 about the power of lived experience, the power of storytelling, the 371 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:34.231 power of lifting to other people's experiences. And I remember when 372 00:22:34.263 --> 00:22:38.095 I transitioned seven or eight years ago, I started to realise 373 00:22:38.135 --> 00:22:41.751 I didn't have some of the lived experience that many 374 00:22:41.783 --> 00:22:45.599 of my female friends had. And it became apparent when I 375 00:22:45.607 --> 00:22:49.215 was sitting, having lunch or having a drink or having a chat with people that 376 00:22:49.375 --> 00:22:52.863 there was a whole load of lived experience. I was completely blinkered to as a 377 00:22:52.879 --> 00:22:56.303 man. And I've also realised that 378 00:22:56.479 --> 00:23:00.161 as a white person, I'm blinkered to the 379 00:23:00.193 --> 00:23:03.897 experience of black, brown, people of colour. And there was an incident of a year 380 00:23:03.921 --> 00:23:07.673 or so, 18 months, or whenever it was about a young, young girl who was 381 00:23:07.689 --> 00:23:11.137 stripped, searched by the police. She was on her period. They're searching for 382 00:23:11.161 --> 00:23:14.645 marijuana, believing she'd hidden it inside her. 383 00:23:15.225 --> 00:23:19.057 And as a white person, I was completely oblivious to 384 00:23:19.081 --> 00:23:22.681 this story, but every person who I knew who was 385 00:23:22.713 --> 00:23:26.047 black was hyper aware of this type of 386 00:23:26.071 --> 00:23:29.775 conversation. And it just shows that, you know, we live in our echo chamber, 387 00:23:29.815 --> 00:23:33.519 even though we, as an inclusion consultant, you know, I'm sure you are yourself, you're 388 00:23:33.567 --> 00:23:37.143 very aware of trying to keep your knowledge out there, but 389 00:23:37.239 --> 00:23:40.287 we listen to the news, we listen to don't we, we don't hear the communities 390 00:23:40.351 --> 00:23:43.863 amplifying because we're not in those communities. How do we, how do we 391 00:23:43.879 --> 00:23:47.535 encourage people to. I call, we're touching on here. We're talking about cultural intelligence, 392 00:23:47.575 --> 00:23:51.199 aren't we? How do we build up that cultural intelligence? Yeah, yeah, 393 00:23:51.247 --> 00:23:54.623 absolutely. And it, because it's the frequencies that we tune into, isn't it? That, you 394 00:23:54.639 --> 00:23:58.447 know, when we, we listen and I can't 395 00:23:58.471 --> 00:24:02.295 remember the, the acronym or something rather, but the piece 396 00:24:02.335 --> 00:24:05.439 within our brain that really listens out for things like our name and things that 397 00:24:05.447 --> 00:24:09.035 are relevant to us that mean our interest gets piqued. And 398 00:24:09.815 --> 00:24:13.407 this, this is it, isn't it? It's the frequency with which we listen to 399 00:24:13.431 --> 00:24:16.835 things through our philtre, through, through our frame of reference. 400 00:24:17.215 --> 00:24:20.903 And it's about how do we broaden that? How do 401 00:24:20.919 --> 00:24:24.537