Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and societal
Joanne Lockwood: transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create
Joanne Lockwood: a world where everyone not only belongs but
Joanne Lockwood: thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we
Joanne Lockwood: uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo
Joanne Lockwood: and share stories that resonate deep within.
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Joanne Lockwood: or winding down after a long day, let's connect,
Joanne Lockwood: reflect and inspire action together.
Joanne Lockwood: Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out
Joanne Lockwood: to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bytes.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 137 with
Joanne Lockwood: the title Talking, Not Telling. And I have the
Joanne Lockwood: absolute honour and privilege to welcome Katie Allen.
Joanne Lockwood: Katie is a specialist confidence coach and inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: consultant. And when I asked Katie to describe her superpower, she
Joanne Lockwood: said she loves rummaging around in grey
Joanne Lockwood: ambiguity that everybody else hates. Hello, Katie. Welcome
Joanne Lockwood: to the show. Hello. Thank you for having me along. This is
Katie Allen: amazing. Absolute pleasure. And I
Joanne Lockwood: know if you're listening here today, you don't know this, but we've just spent an
Joanne Lockwood: hour in the green room chatting away. We've. We've had a fantastic conversation
Joanne Lockwood: and I almost wish we'd recorded some of it, but we've still got loads more
Joanne Lockwood: to talk about. I'm sure there'll always be things to talk about. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, for sure. So, Katie talking, not
Joanne Lockwood: telling. Tell me more. Absolutely. This. It's
Katie Allen: become one of my almost like, lifeblood
Katie Allen: conversations now, especially in the work of
Katie Allen: Inclusion, because it's one of those things. Things that I find whenever I speak
Katie Allen: to people about the work that I do, everyone gets that sheepish little look. Don't.
Katie Allen: Then they're like, oh, are you. Are you going to come and tell me all
Katie Allen: the things I'm getting wrong and all the ways I need to be better?
Katie Allen: And that's just not my style. I would much rather
Katie Allen: have conversations. It's like, this, isn't it? I just want to sit down with
Katie Allen: people. I want to talk to them and understand,
Katie Allen: like, what's going on for you? How do you see the world? This is how
Katie Allen: I see the world. And how can we grow together? So it's
Katie Allen: really become, like, the heart of everything I do. I just want to talk to
Katie Allen: people and not. And not be telling everybody what they're getting wrong and start a
Katie Allen: conversation that inspires some action. Yeah, I, I really resonate with
Joanne Lockwood: that. You know this. You walk into a room sometimes as an
Joanne Lockwood: EDI dei, whatever specialist you want to call us, and people go, oh, no, it's
Joanne Lockwood: the inclusion police. We can't. What we're saying, we can't tell any jokes. We gotta.
Joanne Lockwood: We gotta do this. And it's like, no, no, I'm a human being. I
Joanne Lockwood: laughed, I pass wind. I'm a human being. I
Joanne Lockwood: just want the output to be positive for people
Joanne Lockwood: and not at someone else's expense. And that's what we're trying. That's what we're saying
Joanne Lockwood: really is exactly. Somebody else shouldn't be less than, because you are more
Joanne Lockwood: than. Absolutely that. And then I often find one of the
Katie Allen: barriers to being able to have those conversations comes
Katie Allen: through when people aren't really sure about what they can and can't say. So then
Katie Allen: no one says anything at all. And then. And then nobody really gets
Katie Allen: the opportunity and, you know, rummage you around in the grey areas of ambiguity,
Katie Allen: right, to just dump all of the stuff that's going on in our brains out
Katie Allen: on the floor and just pick through it so we can say, okay, I
Katie Allen: know that you see the world this way, but have you thought about, if you
Katie Allen: were someone else, it could feel like this. And people have
Katie Allen: that moment of like, oh, I didn't realise that. I didn't. I didn't see it
Katie Allen: that way. And, and just making that space for people to just, yeah, rummage around
Katie Allen: in all of that crap that we all bring with ourselves so that we can
Katie Allen: just make better, better conversations and have better interactions. So why do
Joanne Lockwood: people get stuck in this ambiguity?
Joanne Lockwood: How do they get themselves into this vortex of confusion then.
Katie Allen: Yeah, it's a really good question because I don't think that it's
Katie Allen: the same for everybody, but certainly in the work that I do
Katie Allen: with leaders, it comes from this place of our own frames of
Katie Allen: reference that we spend. We spend so much time
Katie Allen: kind of, you know, surrounding ourselves with people who are like
Katie Allen: us, you know, because we see the world the same way and we have similar
Katie Allen: experiences and maybe we've got the same hobbies and we gravitate naturally as
Katie Allen: humans to people that are like us, and we don't get the
Katie Allen: opportunity to understand difference, to understand
Katie Allen: people that have got different frames of reference or maybe have different
Katie Allen: experiences or opinions. And it's interesting that
Katie Allen: when, when you speak to leadership teams, we talk about psychological safety, right?
Katie Allen: And if you want to have A conversation about something business, about the sales
Katie Allen: forecast or about this, then, you know, it's really easy to create a space where
Katie Allen: we can speak up and challenge. Then you say, okay, how do you feel about
Katie Allen: having a conversation about racism? Nope, nobody wants to have
Katie Allen: that conversation. All of a sudden the psychological safety is not
Katie Allen: there. And for me, that's. That's super interesting because
Katie Allen: how can you, as a leader implement your strategy when
Katie Allen: it comes to inclusion if as a team, you aren't prepared to have those
Katie Allen: icky conversations that make you feel nervous
Katie Allen: and a bit, you know, a bit afraid? So if you're not willing to step
Katie Allen: out of your comfort zone and have that conversation, how can you put actions in
Katie Allen: place and expect the rest of your organisation to do it? So again, for me,
Katie Allen: it's about those frames of reference, bringing it back in and making sure you
Katie Allen: can have that informed conversation. Are people worried about
Joanne Lockwood: getting it wrong or they're just worried about being wrong?
Katie Allen: Oh, good question. One or both. Right.
Katie Allen: Because certainly what. What I see
Katie Allen: is some people are very wedded, aren't they, to the idea of that, the fact
Katie Allen: that there is a right and wrong. Right. And actually, nine times out of
Katie Allen: 10, there's no such thing as kind of right and wrong. It's just
Katie Allen: opinions and feelings and experiences and we
Katie Allen: get so hung up on the fact that we have to be right because it
Katie Allen: makes us a good person. I'm doing air quotes for people listening. Like, it makes
Katie Allen: us this good person and we get so held to this label of
Katie Allen: local. I'm a good person and I don't want to say that thing because if
Katie Allen: someone judges me, then I'm getting. I'm going to get cancelled and that'll make me
Katie Allen: a bad person. And it's really unhelpful because
Katie Allen: actually we're all. We're all just ordinary. We're all
Katie Allen: imperfect human people and we are going to get
Katie Allen: things wrong. Does that make us bad? No, it just
Katie Allen: makes us human. So I find that such an interesting thing.
Katie Allen: But, yeah, the difference between. Yeah, being wrong and saying the
Katie Allen: wrong thing, I think we. We tie those two
Katie Allen: concepts together, don't we? As if they are the same thing. And
Katie Allen: actually, I don't know that they are. I think we can. We can make
Katie Allen: mistakes, we can be wrong and it can be okay. Like,
Katie Allen: it's fine. I've had people try and defend
Joanne Lockwood: their beliefs and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with their beliefs,
Joanne Lockwood: but they form this. They hide behind what we call good
Joanne Lockwood: intent. I meant well, but they
Joanne Lockwood: often don't understand the impact of their opinions,
Joanne Lockwood: their judgement, wherever it may be. Yeah,
Katie Allen: I wholeheartedly see that too. And I agree with you that there is
Katie Allen: a difference between intention and impact, for sure. And
Katie Allen: it doesn't mean that you can't have your opinions, it doesn't mean, you
Katie Allen: know they're yours. You, you live the life that you want to live. However, the
Katie Allen: minute anything inside your brain becomes a behaviour, it has the
Katie Allen: capacity and capability to influence and harm someone else.
Katie Allen: And you are accountable for that. Like, that's on you.
Katie Allen: You get to make a decision as to whether that's a way that you want
Katie Allen: to interact with the world or not. And you have
Katie Allen: to understand that you might approach something with the best of intentions.
Katie Allen: And I think we, you know, often we can have that analogy of like a
Katie Allen: broken arm, can't we? If you, if you bump into
Katie Allen: somebody and they end up with a broken arm, like, you may not have
Katie Allen: had the intention to bump into them, but you did. And, you know, the
Katie Allen: fact that you didn't intend to harm them doesn't make their arm any less broken.
Katie Allen: Like, it's still the outcome. So it's just about understanding those two things
Katie Allen: can exist at the same time. So you can have good intentions and you can
Katie Allen: cause harm and, you know, it's what you then do with it going
Katie Allen: forward. Will you intentionally then continue within the world
Katie Allen: breaking people's arms and saying things that are harmful, or
Katie Allen: will you learn from the fact that that thing happened and you're like, actually, I'm
Katie Allen: going to do something differently as a result of that experience. I think that's the
Joanne Lockwood: important thing is when we are being accountable for that
Joanne Lockwood: impact, it's what do we do with it, isn't it? That's the critical thing there.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think what? Well, it costs us
Joanne Lockwood: nothing to change. You know, if I learn that a word or a phrase
Joanne Lockwood: has negative connotations is problematic, it doesn't cost me
Joanne Lockwood: anything to modify my language, learn something new. But too many people
Joanne Lockwood: go, it's just so difficult. You can't say anything these days. Oh, come
Joanne Lockwood: on, it's just a snowflake. Yeah, it's.
Joanne Lockwood: We have these big debates about whether something is racist or not
Joanne Lockwood: racist. And if someone says to me,
Joanne Lockwood: well, that's racist or has a racist connotations
Joanne Lockwood: or colonialism or whatever it may be, I won't
Joanne Lockwood: argue about it, Go, really, come on, it's not. I've googled it. I've looked
Joanne Lockwood: in the dictionary and it says quite clearly on page two, it's not racist.
Joanne Lockwood: And then we're not getting another thesaurus out or another this out or another
Joanne Lockwood: this, and trying to prove we're right, that I'm not racist, rather
Joanne Lockwood: than saying, oh, I never realised the impact of that. You're right. Let me, let
Joanne Lockwood: me look into that. But for now, I'm going to park that and not use
Joanne Lockwood: that phrase ever again because it doesn't cost me anything. I've just learned,
Joanne Lockwood: and I remember there's a particular word used in the song the Mighty
Joanne Lockwood: Quinn where they talk about the Eskimo
Joanne Lockwood: and it was played on Radio 2 and I tweeted
Joanne Lockwood: Radio 2 saying, you do realise that that song you just played on the
Joanne Lockwood: radio has the word Eskimo in it, which is deemed offensive by many
Joanne Lockwood: people. I never heard it played on there again. I don't know if they took
Joanne Lockwood: what I said, but, yeah, if you learn that that word
Joanne Lockwood: is offensive to many or is problematic,
Joanne Lockwood: use a different word, avoid it completely. It cost you
Joanne Lockwood: nothing. Absolutely, absolutely. I can completely agree. And
Katie Allen: it's interesting in that we haven't. It's a choice, it's a conscious choice to
Katie Allen: use the language that we use. And again, I certainly know in having
Katie Allen: conversations with people, if you, if you talk to anyone who puts together
Katie Allen: a sales tender and you say, do you know what? If you use the word
Katie Allen: investment instead of cost, that you're more likely to get
Katie Allen: a positive outcome and people go, oh, that's. That's good, we'll do that. Absolutely. Because
Katie Allen: it's got benefit for you. So you can change your language. Absolutely.
Katie Allen: When you think it makes sense and you can see the benefit for you. So
Katie Allen: if somebody else said, actually, you know, using this word instead of that word has
Katie Allen: benefit for me, or, you know, is. Is better than something
Katie Allen: else, why can't we just accept that? Like, okay, sure,
Katie Allen: that's what you're telling me. I'll believe that. I'll believe that to be true because
Katie Allen: we have no problem believing it elsewhere.
Joanne Lockwood: And. But language is so ingrained in our
Joanne Lockwood: everyday conversations, in our, in our heads. We become very familiar with the way we
Joanne Lockwood: speak and we, we often use the same phrases and, and,
Joanne Lockwood: and base words often. And there's a lot of it is based
Joanne Lockwood: on, on colonialism, racism, life is on
Joanne Lockwood: ableism. A lot. The words we use, you know, we throw
Joanne Lockwood: in words like, I'm a bit OCD at the moment. You know, no one's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit ocd. It's a, it's a clinical diagnosis. I feel a bit
Joanne Lockwood: crazy right now. All these kind of things. And we're using this word in everyday
Joanne Lockwood: language without truly understanding how that can impact
Joanne Lockwood: others. And that's, that's the challenge we've got to overcome, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: Being open enough to reflect
Joanne Lockwood: on our choice of language and how we can improve that?
Katie Allen: Yeah, totally. And, and again that comes back to frames of reference, doesn't it? And
Katie Allen: the fact that we are all products of our environment and
Katie Allen: you know, the things that we've maybe grown up saying
Katie Allen: probably aren't the types of things that we're saying nowadays. And it's just about
Katie Allen: recognising that think language will always change, it will always
Katie Allen: evolve. Even now I get confused because we can use
Katie Allen: figuratively and literally interchangeably because literally
Katie Allen: sometimes means figuratively now. And that's okay because that's just the way it's getting
Katie Allen: used. And it's, and it's, it's just language and
Katie Allen: life evolves, right? And we get
Katie Allen: on board with it or we don't. And sometimes it's just recognising
Katie Allen: that because something comes as second nature or that's just how our brains
Katie Allen: process and how we think and the way we refer to things. Being
Katie Allen: open to hearing it when someone else says I hear that differently
Katie Allen: to you or did you know that we don't use that word
Katie Allen: anymore and for this reason and it's just about being okay with it
Katie Allen: and not being so wedded back to that being right and wrong. Isn't it like
Katie Allen: to being right that we have to go back through? Well, the dictionary
Katie Allen: definition of the use of they means multiple
Katie Allen: people and therefore it's like really, really Is that what, is that what
Katie Allen: you're going to hold on to the dictionary definition? Or how about someone
Katie Allen: has expressed to you that, you know, they want you to use a gender neutral
Katie Allen: pronoun in reference to them because that's what feels right for them. Why
Katie Allen: would we, why would we withhold that from them? Just because the dictionary
Katie Allen: has something for you. Like is that what we're going to do? But we're living
Joanne Lockwood: in a world now where everything we're just talking about here we'll have people
Joanne Lockwood: listening today and hello, thank you for listening. Who are
Joanne Lockwood: nodding their heads and going, yeah too right. Maybe we've got
Joanne Lockwood: people listening, going, God, this sounds like a load of woke BS to me.
Joanne Lockwood: God, just get a life, you snowflakes. You know, start,
Joanne Lockwood: let's get in the real world here. Just get on with stuff. Solve the first
Joanne Lockwood: world problems. Not these, these, these issues we're facing. So
Joanne Lockwood: why, why why should people care? I mean, and that's a
Katie Allen: good question, right? Because you don't. We don't have to care
Katie Allen: as humans, I guess if your life is so beautiful
Katie Allen: and comfortable that you don't get misgendered
Katie Allen: and you don't have people using language that is
Katie Allen: utterly offensive to you or your existence,
Katie Allen: then fantastic, that's, that's great for you. Do
Katie Allen: you want to continue living in a world where it's all
Katie Allen: good for you and screw everyone else, essentially? Like, do you want that?
Katie Allen: Or do you want to be able to have conversations and communicate with
Katie Allen: people in a way that really opens up, you know,
Katie Allen: a community to you? And even if just purely for selfish
Katie Allen: reasons. Right. If you are someone who is responsible for an entire
Katie Allen: organisation, do you really want to be viewed as someone who
Katie Allen: is an immovable object, or do you want to be viewed as someone
Katie Allen: who really gets what it's like, as an employer, who
Katie Allen: really understands the people that work for you, that really
Katie Allen: understands how your clients and your customers see the world?
Katie Allen: Like, do you want to be able to engage with people in that
Katie Allen: way, or do you want to stay completely
Katie Allen: wedded to your own frame of reference and just live there
Katie Allen: and live in that bubble? It's a choice, isn't it? You can step outside, you
Katie Allen: can learn about people who are different to you because those people will
Katie Allen: be in your personal circles, they will be within
Katie Allen: your employee teams, they will be on your customers, they'll be in your supply
Katie Allen: chain. People exist all around you. Why would we not
Katie Allen: engage? You were saying just at the beginning of the podcast
Joanne Lockwood: when we started talking, that the
Joanne Lockwood: danger is, if we're not careful, is that people live in their own lived
Joanne Lockwood: experience. So, you know, we look at the.
Joanne Lockwood: Some serious well known influences in this world. I would.
Joanne Lockwood: My personal opinion is that they're negative influencers, people like Andrew Tate.
Joanne Lockwood: They live in a world, an echo chamber, where they have a belief that
Joanne Lockwood: they're doing the right thing. They have an
Joanne Lockwood: opinion around masculinity and
Joanne Lockwood: femininity, that men are superior, women
Joanne Lockwood: have their place for whatever their
Joanne Lockwood: opinions are that I find abhorrent. But they have a
Joanne Lockwood: belief system and they have a followers and they're not going to
Joanne Lockwood: change, are they? And when you polarise your views in that way,
Joanne Lockwood: it's very difficult to try and get around the table and have a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation. So how do we start to chip away at the edges of the
Joanne Lockwood: people who are unsure or being
Joanne Lockwood: influenced? Yeah, and I think that for me is the.
Katie Allen: The audience that I am most drawn to in the conversations that I have,
Katie Allen: because, yeah, there are. There are definitely people who are immovable
Katie Allen: objects in this world, and the likes of Andrew Tate are one of them in
Katie Allen: the sense that they believe what they
Katie Allen: believe, and it serves them to double down on that harder and
Katie Allen: harder every time, because that's their brand now. So even if someone
Katie Allen: showed them information that could change their mind, they're never going to do
Katie Allen: that because they've built a brand on what they're doing and
Katie Allen: they play on. My belief is they play into that, because when you
Katie Allen: have got, you know, the. What I believe to be the majority of
Katie Allen: people, and I guess in Andrew Tate's audience, we're probably talking
Katie Allen: young men who feel that their place in the
Katie Allen: world is being either threatened or somehow feels like
Katie Allen: it's shifting and they're not sure how. When you are part of that
Katie Allen: group and you, you know, everyone's telling you that
Katie Allen: your identity doesn't matter anymore. There's no place for you be quiet, because we're
Katie Allen: going to give voice to everybody else. And then you've got someone like Andrew Tate
Katie Allen: who's going, hey, come on over here, because I see you. I
Katie Allen: can. I can be someone that you can look up to. I mean,
Katie Allen: it's. It's, from my perspective, pretty horrifying. But I can also understand
Katie Allen: why people gravitate towards that, because it's making space. It's making
Katie Allen: space for someone to flow in, to feel seen and heard and tr. Truly, when
Katie Allen: it comes to the work of inclusion, my perspective at least, is like
Katie Allen: inclusion is everybody, and it's just not at the expense
Katie Allen: of anybody. So it's really about how are we making
Katie Allen: sure all of the people that might be feeling
Katie Allen: unwelcome, I guess, in spaces that they once were just naturally
Katie Allen: welcomed into, how do we. We maintain their presence and maintain
Katie Allen: them in the conversation so that they don't have to look to role models like
Katie Allen: the Andrew Tates of this world to feel seen and heard. How will we make.
Katie Allen: Again, back to those conversations. We need to be talking with one another,
Katie Allen: especially around, you know, masculinity, because
Katie Allen: when we talk about, you know, the. The hard kind of patriarchal systems
Katie Allen: that we're. We're living within, like, that harms men,
Katie Allen: too. Like, that's. That's not. That's not a gender thing. It's a. It's
Katie Allen: a. You know, it's harmful for everybody other than the
Katie Allen: very few people that it was designed to benefit. So we have
Katie Allen: to kind of change the narrative so we can have a conversation about
Katie Allen: patriarchy is bad for everybody practically.
Katie Allen: So how are we making sure that we are understanding what
Katie Allen: that means and rallying against that? So it's not about anti men, it's about
Katie Allen: anti the system that harms everybody, if that makes sense. Yeah, it was a great
Joanne Lockwood: example and I've been watching it evolve over LinkedIn and
Joanne Lockwood: other people talk about online on last Friday's episode of
Joanne Lockwood: Graham Norton and there was two, two
Joanne Lockwood: men, I, I can't remember the names of the people involved, but there were two
Joanne Lockwood: men talking about Hollywood superstars, talking about
Joanne Lockwood: doing some training about self defence and they were using a mobile
Joanne Lockwood: phone as part of their self defence mechanism. And I think one man said the
Joanne Lockwood: other man who would use their mobile phone to defend somebody
Joanne Lockwood: off. And then the woman who was on the panel, also a Hollywood
Joanne Lockwood: superstar, chipped in and said, well, actually this is what women have to think about
Joanne Lockwood: all the time. Whatever object they've got to hand, it becomes a potential
Joanne Lockwood: defence weapon. And most, most women will hold their mobile phone in a
Joanne Lockwood: defensive way if they need to beat off an attacker. And she turned to the
Joanne Lockwood: audience, isn't that right, ladies? And the whole audience erupted in applause
Joanne Lockwood: and it's certainly resonating on LinkedIn because
Joanne Lockwood: we, many people see the world through their own blinkers. They don't
Joanne Lockwood: see from a male patriarchal
Joanne Lockwood: perspective, they believe they're great people, they feel that they're inclusive, they
Joanne Lockwood: don't feel that they're, they're toxic masculinity or anything like that, but they
Joanne Lockwood: don't really see the lived experience of others. And that's, that's, we've got
Joanne Lockwood: this gap, isn't it, this empathy bridge we've got to try and create. Yeah, absolutely,
Katie Allen: absolutely. And, and I think it, I've seen that clip too and I think it,
Katie Allen: it's a brilliant demonstration almost, isn't it, that the silence of the rest of
Katie Allen: the panel are just stunned into when she says, like, actually when, when
Katie Allen: you're a woman, that's something you have to think about. And it's that moment of
Katie Allen: like, oh, oh, here we are making a joke about it, but, oh,
Katie Allen: okay. And, and that I think that's hugely
Katie Allen: important because if we aren't sharing our experiences and really
Katie Allen: understanding, you know, the world was created in a certain way, you either fit that
Katie Allen: mould or you don't fit that mould. And if you don't fit
Katie Allen: into the mould of, you know, of what success or what safety
Katie Allen: looks like, it can be really terrifying. But that's
Katie Allen: damaging for everybody. Who doesn't fit into that mould? So if
Katie Allen: you then play this out, if men are supposed to be like, well, who needs,
Katie Allen: who needs a mobile phone to defend themselves? It's like, actually,
Katie Allen: a lot of men would probably also be looking for the first thing they've got
Katie Allen: to hand as a defence. So here we are making light of, you know. Oh,
Katie Allen: yeah, guys don't need, you know, to think about weapons for defending
Katie Allen: themselves. Well, they probably do. If you're going to get attacked, you're probably not someone
Katie Allen: who's going to naturally, you know, have been trained in jiu jitsu and be able
Katie Allen: to leap into action. Like, no, you're going to want to absolutely peg it
Katie Allen: to find safety or you're, you're going to be in fight mode and you're going
Katie Allen: to do the best you can with whatever is to hand. And making
Katie Allen: joke of that is really just reinforcing that narrative, isn't it? Of, you know,
Katie Allen: yeah, we're dudes, we can have a fight. Like, can you and should you. I
Joanne Lockwood: know that often what we, what we don't do is we don't think about, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, we're talking about the other person's lived experience, the other. What the other people
Joanne Lockwood: are going through. And we, in the
Joanne Lockwood: EDI space, in corporate or wherever we're working, we often talk
Joanne Lockwood: about the power of lived experience, the power of storytelling, the
Joanne Lockwood: power of lifting to other people's experiences. And I remember when
Joanne Lockwood: I transitioned seven or eight years ago, I started to realise
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't have some of the lived experience that many
Joanne Lockwood: of my female friends had. And it became apparent when I
Joanne Lockwood: was sitting, having lunch or having a drink or having a chat with people that
Joanne Lockwood: there was a whole load of lived experience. I was completely blinkered to as a
Joanne Lockwood: man. And I've also realised that
Joanne Lockwood: as a white person, I'm blinkered to the
Joanne Lockwood: experience of black, brown, people of colour. And there was an incident of a year
Joanne Lockwood: or so, 18 months, or whenever it was about a young, young girl who was
Joanne Lockwood: stripped, searched by the police. She was on her period. They're searching for
Joanne Lockwood: marijuana, believing she'd hidden it inside her.
Joanne Lockwood: And as a white person, I was completely oblivious to
Joanne Lockwood: this story, but every person who I knew who was
Joanne Lockwood: black was hyper aware of this type of
Joanne Lockwood: conversation. And it just shows that, you know, we live in our echo chamber,
Joanne Lockwood: even though we, as an inclusion consultant, you know, I'm sure you are yourself, you're
Joanne Lockwood: very aware of trying to keep your knowledge out there, but
Joanne Lockwood: we listen to the news, we listen to don't we, we don't hear the communities
Joanne Lockwood: amplifying because we're not in those communities. How do we, how do we
Joanne Lockwood: encourage people to. I call, we're touching on here. We're talking about cultural intelligence,
Joanne Lockwood: aren't we? How do we build up that cultural intelligence? Yeah, yeah,
Katie Allen: absolutely. And it, because it's the frequencies that we tune into, isn't it? That, you
Katie Allen: know, when we, we listen and I can't
Katie Allen: remember the, the acronym or something rather, but the piece
Katie Allen: within our brain that really listens out for things like our name and things that
Katie Allen: are relevant to us that mean our interest gets piqued. And
Katie Allen: this, this is it, isn't it? It's the frequency with which we listen to
Katie Allen: things through our philtre, through, through our frame of reference.
Katie Allen: And it's about how do we broaden that? How do
Katie Allen: we have conversations with people that are different to us, to
Katie Allen: un, to ask and to understand different experiences, to
Katie Allen: you know, our echo chambers that we live in, which is, let's face it, is
Katie Allen: pretty much our social media. Are we just following people who are just like us
Katie Allen: with the same experiences as us that went to the same school that we did,
Katie Allen: you know, or how are we looking for content and
Katie Allen: information to help educate us about experiences that
Katie Allen: exist outside that? Because that's all within our control, isn't it? Because, you
Katie Allen: know, social media, it's a designed algorithm to give us more of the things that
Katie Allen: we click on and we, you know, we linger on so
Katie Allen: actively go out there and look for experiences that are different to yours to
Katie Allen: try and understand, to become tuned in because you, you
Katie Allen: soon very quickly start to notice it. I know now, like when I'm
Katie Allen: watching tv, you just.
Katie Allen: I'm a huge fan of things like Love is Blind and Married at First Sight.
Katie Allen: Like they're my absolute guilty pleasure. I love them. But actually I think
Katie Allen: it was in the Married at Fireside Australia. You see over
Katie Allen: the seasons the absolute misogyny that exists within a lot of
Katie Allen: the goings on. And it doesn't get called out in the
Katie Allen: early seasons, it's just the way that people treat each other.
Katie Allen: And it's now in the more recent seasons, you know, the so called, the
Katie Allen: experts that sit on the sofa and help guide these young couples that
Katie Allen: are going through or you know, whatever age couple that are going through their
Katie Allen: relationships, they actually will now stop conversations and call people out to say,
Katie Allen: actually do you understand how this, you know, how you're speaking to your partner, partner
Katie Allen: and they really highlight it and make people face into the discomfort
Katie Allen: of these conversations because media is
Katie Allen: becoming savvy to understand, actually we have to see more of this.
Katie Allen: And, and we, you know, it's, it's becoming more available
Katie Allen: and open to us in the things that we consume in our social media, within
Katie Allen: the TV programmes that we watch. You know, I'm a huge fan
Katie Allen: of things like Heart Stopper. That's a new season of Heartstopper that's just come out
Katie Allen: on Netflix, which is. I, I wish there had been
Katie Allen: TV programmes like that out when I was growing up at school, because it is
Katie Allen: the most non dramatic and
Katie Allen: beautiful high school drama TV
Katie Allen: programme that you're ever going to get. And it follows a group of
Katie Allen: LGBTQIA teens through their education. And
Katie Allen: it's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. It's a gorgeous
Katie Allen: representation. And I'm going to use the term queer love, because as an
Katie Allen: LGBTQIA plus person myself, I'm okay with that term. But I also understand there
Katie Allen: might be people listening who are not ok, okay. Or comfortable with the term queer.
Katie Allen: So I would like to acknowledge that it's not about you. It's a term I'm
Katie Allen: using for myself. And I love, and I love
Katie Allen: seeing that played out. Just, you know, the beauty of
Katie Allen: LGBTQIA plus kids and their experiences. And in this
Katie Allen: most recent series, they have a character in there that really resonates with me because
Katie Allen: they're developing an asexual character. So for me to see that played back
Katie Allen: out on screen again, I just wish that had been something I could
Katie Allen: have seen growing up because it would have made me get to my own realisations
Katie Allen: a hell of a lot sooner than I currently did. But again, it's all
Katie Allen: about frame of reference, right? Because we didn't talk about those things when I was
Katie Allen: at school. You know, it was all. Being gay was an
Katie Allen: absolute slur. So it just. You just didn't have that
Katie Allen: conversation. How are we having more conversations with each other? How are we
Katie Allen: challenging our perspectives? You know, I could go on. I mean, for me,
Katie Allen: TV is a big, A big thing. I'm again a fan of Grey's
Katie Allen: Anatomy and I remember several years ago, the scene
Katie Allen: where Miranda Bailey sits her son Tucker down. And Miranda
Katie Allen: Bailey is a. Is a black surgeon and her son, therefore,
Katie Allen: is a black child. And she, she sits him down and has to have the
Katie Allen: conversation about if you get stopped by the police,
Katie Allen: this is what you have to do. And she is very
Katie Allen: explicit around, this is how you have to behave, this is how you have to
Katie Allen: move slowly. This is what you have to Say you need to be polite, do
Katie Allen: not run away. And this whole list of things and it really dawned on me
Katie Allen: as, like, I don't have children myself, but I don't recall any of my friends
Katie Allen: having to have that conversation with their children because they're all white.
Katie Allen: So I was like, okay, that's not even something you would
Katie Allen: think you would have to do. And yet, you know, as you were saying,
Katie Allen: I speak to my black friends, they're like, yep, like,
Katie Allen: absolutely. This is, this is not, this is not a surprise that this,
Katie Allen: that this would, would feature in a TV programme. And
Katie Allen: how are we engaging in things that really make us. I
Katie Allen: actually want to use the term awake, so make us woke in
Katie Allen: its true sense of the word to what is happening in the
Katie Allen: lives of other people. Yeah, I feel like I've gone on a bit there, so
Katie Allen: please come. No, no. As you're talking there about the. You
Joanne Lockwood: say a lot of our information, our feed is from social media. We
Joanne Lockwood: tend to be our affinity bias, our people who are part of our
Joanne Lockwood: same social groups, etc, we make it worse because when we start seeing people
Joanne Lockwood: who have different views, we either get angry with
Joanne Lockwood: them or we block them or unfollow them or mute or whatever we're
Joanne Lockwood: going to do or start a post in
Joanne Lockwood: war on their feet going, you're wrong. So we end up
Joanne Lockwood: polarising ourselves even more and building our armies, don't we?
Joanne Lockwood: Me and my mates are going to come and take you and your mates on
Joanne Lockwood: for your belief. Social media promotes that,
Joanne Lockwood: that, that petrol on the fire experience, doesn't it? It
Katie Allen: absolutely can do. And also it can
Katie Allen: be a force for good as well. I think it just depends on how you
Katie Allen: consume it and how you engage. And again, you know, there
Katie Allen: are people that I'm not going to engage with on social media.
Katie Allen: You know, I'm perfectly happy. I'm a bit Marmite for people.
Katie Allen: Some people really dislike my content. That's okay, they don't have to follow. That's what
Katie Allen: the unfollow button is for. Right. You don't need me in your feed. No worries.
Katie Allen: Don't look. If you come in my comments abusing the people that do like
Katie Allen: my content, I will, I will block you. That's like, you know, no problem.
Katie Allen: However, there are also people who I know that lurk a bit and are a
Katie Allen: bit curious because they see what I post and they're like, oh, I don't understand
Katie Allen: that and I'd like to have a conversation with you without getting
Katie Allen: blocked. And that's what I'M absolutely here for
Katie Allen: because that is those moments where we, we have the
Katie Allen: opportunity to learn where we can engage with people to get different
Katie Allen: perspect perspectives. So I'm, you know, I'm never interested in
Katie Allen: the Donald Trumps of this world. And you know, for example, everything that's, that's going
Katie Allen: on with the pre election stuff is for me personally,
Katie Allen: pretty horrifying and divisive and intentionally so.
Katie Allen: However, there are going to be people that might
Katie Allen: hear what's coming out of that camp and think, okay, I can see how that
Katie Allen: makes sense. But they're still left with some questions and they're
Katie Allen: the people that I want to have conversations with because I want to know what
Katie Allen: is it that resonates with you? What is it about your experiences and your
Katie Allen: worldview that is leading you down a path where you
Katie Allen: can, you can see merit in some of this content? Because
Katie Allen: for me, it's about, I want to understand you. I want to understand
Katie Allen: how you've arrived, where you've arrived at, what are your experiences that are
Katie Allen: shaping that and really listen and then engage in a
Katie Allen: dialogue. Again, we're talking, not telling, right? And then engage in this
Katie Allen: conversation. And okay, and this is how I see the world
Katie Allen: and this is how I feel when you share those views. And here is
Katie Allen: something that to me, you know, is at odds with what
Katie Allen: you're thinking and how can we have a conversation about that and
Katie Allen: not coming at it from a place of I want to change your opinion. It's
Katie Allen: just I want to offer you a different viewpoint and see how that feels to
Katie Allen: you and see what you might want to take away from
Katie Allen: that. And for me, that again, that's one of the most powerful
Katie Allen: opportunities, I guess, that are available when we, you know, we have people who are
Katie Allen: professional speakers and a lot of people speak about their lived experience and
Katie Allen: I think that's hugely powerful because when someone has taken time to craft
Katie Allen: their story and their experiences and they're willing to share it with you and deliver
Katie Allen: it with you, you can learn a lot from that. And you, you don't have
Katie Allen: to engage, you don't have to ask questions. You can just listen, listen to
Katie Allen: somebody else's experience and think, okay, that's different to mine.
Katie Allen: What, what does that make me feel now? Like, has that
Katie Allen: challenged any of my beliefs? And, and sit. You know, for me,
Katie Allen: I treat everything as data. So emotions are data. So when I'm
Katie Allen: feeling completely jarred by something or if I, if I
Katie Allen: feel myself getting defensive like that, that feeling in your stomach when you're like,
Katie Allen: oh, I don't like this. For me, that's data. I'm like, okay, why am I
Katie Allen: responding that way? What within me and my value system is being
Katie Allen: challenged and, and I try and sit with it before I respond as
Katie Allen: well, just to think, okay, that's interesting. I think I'm
Katie Allen: feeling a bit, feeling a bit emotional, feeling a bit sick, feeling
Katie Allen: like I might want to punch this person. Okay, what's going on for me, you
Katie Allen: know, never gonna do that. But sometimes I get the feeling of like,
Katie Allen: oh, not, not a fan of yours. But I sit with, I sit with the
Katie Allen: discomfort and think, okay, what specifically is it? Which of my values are being
Katie Allen: challenged? Which of my, my beliefs are being challenged and is that
Katie Allen: fair? You know, am I not
Katie Allen: listening to them? Because I've immediately made a judgement because
Katie Allen: of these, you know, these physical feelings and emotions that happening to
Katie Allen: me and how am I going to make some space to actually
Katie Allen: listen to what they're saying so that I can make an informed decision? Because
Katie Allen: that decision might also be, no, you're not my cup of tea. I think, I
Katie Allen: think I'll pass. And, and that's okay because I'm, I'm, you know, there are, there
Katie Allen: are hills that I will not die on. But also, you
Katie Allen: know, I, I like to understand that have I really listened to this
Katie Allen: person? And if I have, and I can,
Katie Allen: especially in one to one conversations, if I demonstrate and role model that
Katie Allen: listening, I kind of feel obliged to listen to me. Then when I decide I
Katie Allen: want to start wanging on about how I feel about things. And I know
Katie Allen: that if I can just plant a few seeds of thought
Katie Allen: with people, they in my experience, do
Katie Allen: take it away. And I've had people come back to me, you know, weeks after
Katie Allen: conversations and said I was thinking about that thing
Katie Allen: and actually I then had a conversation with. And they speak to other people and
Katie Allen: get other opinions and you see a shift and I think, I'll take that,
Katie Allen: that's good enough for me, that that's improved a conversation for someone else somewhere down
Katie Allen: the line. Yeah, I often respond to people with, I don't owe you an
Joanne Lockwood: argument. I saw a great analogy. So I think this one posted on LinkedIn, I
Joanne Lockwood: can't remember who it was now, but they described it as, you turn up at
Joanne Lockwood: my doorstep with your muddy boots on and you walk through my living room
Joanne Lockwood: stomping your mud throughout my house and you expect me to be happy with
Joanne Lockwood: that? Yeah, if you want to have a conversation, take your boots off
Joanne Lockwood: and sit on my sofa and we'll have a cup of coffee and talk about
Joanne Lockwood: it. But don't try and stamp your views all over me and expect me to
Joanne Lockwood: be. To want it. So it's got to be a kind of respect. And
Joanne Lockwood: a few times I'll just say to people, I don't owe you an argument. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: not trying to justify who I am. I'm not trying to get into a debate
Joanne Lockwood: about fundamentals here. We're polar opposite on these views
Joanne Lockwood: and beliefs. I'm happy to have a conversation about why you think something,
Joanne Lockwood: but not what. I don't talk about what you think, just why. Tell me why.
Joanne Lockwood: What scares you, what you're worried about, what's the thing
Joanne Lockwood: that keeps us apart on this? And it's trying to
Joanne Lockwood: find that common shared vision and common
Joanne Lockwood: shared values that maybe we. Maybe
Joanne Lockwood: we turn left or turn right at the end of the road. But fundamentally, we're
Joanne Lockwood: both human and we want the same things. Happy life.
Katie Allen: Absolutely. And as a build on that as well, I think that for
Katie Allen: me, is there one of the most powerful roles that people can play as
Katie Allen: allies. And I mean, like true allies. Not the kind of. Like, I went on
Katie Allen: an allyship training course once, and I know some words to say, like
Katie Allen: real allyship, where people are willing to step up
Katie Allen: or step back in that. I know that, you know,
Katie Allen: I'm, you know, for, for those that are listening, like, I'm, you know, I'm a
Katie Allen: generally smiley white woman. Right. I'm. I'm pretty well
Katie Allen: accepted in most spaces and, And I use that
Katie Allen: to my advantage. I'm not going to hide from that. Like, I can. I can
Katie Allen: have conversations with people that other people perhaps
Katie Allen: can't, because I'm pretty much. What's the word? Kind of unassuming.
Katie Allen: I'm a little bit disarming and, and people threatening. Yeah, I get it.
Katie Allen: People say things to me that are a bit more honest
Katie Allen: about how they feel that they won't say to some of my other associates who
Katie Allen: do the same work that I do because they don't want to offend them. But
Katie Allen: for me, for some reason, you know, people open up pretty quickly, and I'm
Katie Allen: okay with that. Because you can say something offensive, I probably
Katie Allen: won't be offended. It doesn't make it any less offensive. And I will help you
Katie Allen: unpack it. But that's okay. I'm totally all right for you to
Katie Allen: get that out at me and then we can have a conversation. And I see
Katie Allen: that as my role as an ally in the sense of I want to
Katie Allen: Help have those conversations with people when those
Katie Allen: conversations don't cause harm to kind of the groups that
Katie Allen: would be affected if it was them having to then I guess, like you
Katie Allen: were saying, argue for your own identity. Like, no one should have to do that.
Katie Allen: So I'm perfectly happy to have all of the conversations
Katie Allen: about, you know, anti racism and trans
Katie Allen: awareness because I'm like, I, I want to be able
Katie Allen: to not speak on behalf of, but stand up
Katie Allen: for my friends in those communities who experience
Katie Allen: the harm because it doesn't personally impact me.
Katie Allen: So I can take that heat. And, and I think the more
Katie Allen: we have conversations about different experiences, the
Katie Allen: more that, and especially for people who are in leadership positions like,
Katie Allen: you have a responsibility to be an ally to people
Katie Allen: like that is that is your job as someone who is looked up to as
Katie Allen: a role model within a business, like, absolutely. And with. And within your families and
Katie Allen: your communities, like you, we have a responsibility as role
Katie Allen: models. But that does involve doing that uncomfortable work of.
Katie Allen: We have to understand this stuff to begin with. We can't just sort
Katie Allen: of, I, you know, I've, I've got a few sentences I'll
Katie Allen: chop out, I'll trot out, and then if somebody challenges me on them, I'm a
Katie Allen: bit lost after that. It's like, no, you have to understand where you're coming from
Katie Allen: and what your viewpoint is and where you stand so that you can stand
Katie Allen: there. You, you mentioned earlier, and you hinted on it just
Joanne Lockwood: now around queer community. You see yourself as part of
Joanne Lockwood: that. And you, you talked about how recognising the fact
Joanne Lockwood: that some people find the word queer triggering,
Joanne Lockwood: pejorative or brings back uncomfortable memories of
Joanne Lockwood: past oppression or violence, discrimination, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be. I often frame it as the difference between an identity and a
Joanne Lockwood: label. So I, I am versus you
Joanne Lockwood: are. So I am queer in my outlook
Joanne Lockwood: and my Persona and my characteristics, but I'm not a. You
Joanne Lockwood: are queer. Don't call me queer, but I'm happy to be it.
Joanne Lockwood: I think when we think about the difference between identities and labels, don't label me,
Joanne Lockwood: don't stereotype me, don't put me in a box with the queer on
Joanne Lockwood: the outside. I'm in. I'm happy to stand with my friends and we
Joanne Lockwood: are queer together, and that's, that's our power. But don't label me
Joanne Lockwood: and weaponize it. And I think that's, that's the key there, isn't it? Yeah,
Katie Allen: absolutely. And, and also I think, and this is where the
Katie Allen: language piece gets tricky again, isn't it? That not all words work
Katie Allen: for all people and we have to be all right with that. There is no
Katie Allen: hard and fast rule that, again, getting rid of the good and bad label. Just
Katie Allen: like if somebody would. Like, if someone is speaking about me and they want to
Katie Allen: make reference to me and they make reference to me as queer, I'm fine with
Katie Allen: it. I would absolutely say that unless you've had express
Katie Allen: permission from anybody else, don't do it. Like, if you're not talking about yourself
Katie Allen: and you. You haven't had it expressly, expressly made clear
Katie Allen: that it's okay. Just avoid any language that could be
Katie Allen: loaded in that way. For me, that's it. Because, you know, you may get
Katie Allen: it right, you might not. So let's err on the side of you probably
Katie Allen: won't, and choose something else and learn to say
Katie Allen: lgbtqia. There is about as many characters as a number
Katie Allen: plate, so you can probably get it right with enough practise
Katie Allen: and say out loud a few times, you'll get there. Which is why I tend
Joanne Lockwood: to prefer the word queer, because I think it's more inclusive. Whereas if you start
Joanne Lockwood: alphabetizing everything, you always end up missing somebody out. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think rather than having the QAA + *, whatever it may be. Yeah,
Katie Allen: yeah. Sometimes I just think queer is a more inclusive term because it doesn't.
Joanne Lockwood: Anybody who wants to fit into that label, they self identify. Yeah,
Katie Allen: absolutely. But then, you know, for some people, it's. I also have friends within
Katie Allen: the community who. It really. It really does. It
Katie Allen: really does make them feel a certain type of way. So I also know, well,
Katie Allen: I won't even use that word about myself in their presence because I know how
Katie Allen: they feel. And again, you know, it's
Katie Allen: not that. It's not that hard to say lgbtqia, but if you only get as
Katie Allen: far as lgbt, like, you can definitely remember that.
Katie Allen: Like, it's like HSBC or what, like, whatever. You know, you can. You
Katie Allen: can definitely. You can definitely remember lgbt. If that's as far as you get.
Katie Allen: We all know what you mean, so that's okay. If you can
Katie Allen: get further, if you get all the way to QIA plus, then
Katie Allen: someone like me who is in the A plus category, not just my grades at
Katie Allen: school, then I feel seen.
Katie Allen: So as much as I agree with you in. In the sense of, actually, if
Katie Allen: we can use the word queer in a community sense, it just
Katie Allen: mean everybody, and that's grand. But actually, there is something to be said about the
Katie Allen: specificity, because I know if anybody gets as far as Saying A plus, I'm
Katie Allen: safe because they've done the work. And for me that's a big signal.
Katie Allen: And it's small. It's really small, but it's a huge signal. But they know what
Joanne Lockwood: the A stands for. They're just trotting it off. Is it allies?
Joanne Lockwood: Asexual. Yeah. And it does mean asexual.
Katie Allen: And if you don't know what that is, go and do some work on it
Katie Allen: because it's very important. So you've given me a segue there
Joanne Lockwood: to ask you about your asexuality. As, as you said earlier,
Joanne Lockwood: you're a, a white woman. You appear to be blonde
Joanne Lockwood: at the moment. I guess that's your. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: you've got a fair complexion, a big smile. So you are
Joanne Lockwood: kind of girl next door passing, aren't you? Yeah, totally. Oh,
Katie Allen: 100. And to muddy the waters of
Katie Allen: people's expectations, I'm also in a relationship with
Katie Allen: a, a straight man. So, you know, on, on the face of
Katie Allen: it, there's nothing to see here, which I always find really
Katie Allen: funny because that I, I get. People make comments to me like, well, hang on,
Katie Allen: asexual. But haven't you've got a boyfriend, haven't you? I'm like,
Katie Allen: yeah, I know. Funny how that works because it's
Katie Allen: so for me and, and even within the queer community, it's such a
Katie Allen: misunderstood sexual orientation. And it is an orientation
Katie Allen: and to be clear, it's. It's around the absence
Katie Allen: or the kind of. I don't want to say I hate the word lack, but
Katie Allen: it's around. I don't experience sexual attraction in the way that
Katie Allen: most other people would, would describe
Katie Allen: their experience. So I, I've never really understood
Katie Allen: what getting horny meant. Like, I thought it was a thing. I, I now
Katie Allen: know, having spoken to lots of my friends about it, I don't get horny. It's
Katie Allen: not a thing. That's okay, right? But it's just the
Katie Allen: assumption is that everybody, and certainly within the media as well, this is a big
Katie Allen: thing. Like, it's just that. But everybody, everybody does that. Everybody
Katie Allen: experiences sexual attraction. It's just who you're attracted to that changes.
Katie Allen: And that's not true because I don't experience sexual attraction.
Katie Allen: Now, in addition to that, I'm not aromantic, which is if
Katie Allen: I was aromantic, I would also be someone that doesn't experience romantic
Katie Allen: attraction. What I am is pan romantic, which
Katie Allen: means my romantic attraction is not bound by gender. So it doesn't
Katie Allen: matter to me the gender of a person. I can be romantically attracted
Katie Allen: to, that's fine. But it's, it's based very much more around
Katie Allen: emotional, intellectual attractions. That's what, that's
Katie Allen: my thing. But I'm still not gonna. Well, I don't want to be too
Katie Allen: crude about it, but I'm still not going to experience sexual attraction. I'm just, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: going to dive into this conversation a bit further if you don't mind. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So for clarity and it's nice to
Joanne Lockwood: have the opportunity to sit with a self declared asexual person and ask
Joanne Lockwood: them this question on a podcast. So it doesn't mean to say that
Joanne Lockwood: you're, you don't enjoy sex, it just means that
Joanne Lockwood: you don't experience horniness
Joanne Lockwood: or attraction physically to somebody
Joanne Lockwood: who you meet in passing. But you, you still
Joanne Lockwood: have an active sex life. Yeah, exactly, exactly
Katie Allen: that. So there is again, there's a difference between sexual
Katie Allen: attraction and pleasure and there's a difference between pleasure and
Katie Allen: libido. So all of these things are different things. And this
Katie Allen: is, again, this is something I find really fascinating because as
Katie Allen: an asexual person I've done the work in
Katie Allen: understanding how my brain and my body work and where they
Katie Allen: work in tandem and where they work in, in opposition.
Katie Allen: However, what I have realised is
Katie Allen: people who are allosexual, which is the opposite of asexual. So people
Katie Allen: who do experience sexual attraction tend to not go
Katie Allen: any further than that. It's just a case of I fancy
Katie Allen: you, will you be my partner? You know, maybe it takes you
Katie Allen: a few dates to get to the deed, but then it all, it all hinges
Katie Allen: around the importance of like sexual compatibility. Because if you don't have that, you're
Katie Allen: friend zoned. And I'm like, is that, is that
Katie Allen: really the be all and end all of your relationship? I don't
Katie Allen: think it is. I think there's so many multiple layers that tend to
Katie Allen: be considered as secondary, whereas in my
Katie Allen: relationships they are certainly more at the forefront. Because I'm not,
Katie Allen: I'm not driven by the, the sexual desire side. I'm more about
Katie Allen: like, how funny are you? How smart are you?
Joanne Lockwood: Like, you know, I do the soul mate stuff. Yeah. Because
Joanne Lockwood: I want to spend my time with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm investing in you.
Katie Allen: Yeah, yeah. Which is it? And also, you know,
Katie Allen: having, having spent the last, well, I don't know, all of the years
Katie Allen: that I've been sexually active. Like, I also understand objectively,
Katie Allen: for me it's something that is pleasurable. I also know asexual people
Katie Allen: who have absolutely Zero interest in it. It don't find it sex
Katie Allen: pleasurable at all. That's okay too, because some people can
Katie Allen: be sex positive and some people can be sex repulsed. Like, it's all totally
Katie Allen: okay. But you, I think you explain that by saying
Joanne Lockwood: that your sexuality and your,
Joanne Lockwood: how you interact and attract to people is, is a different than your
Joanne Lockwood: libido. Yeah, absolutely. And as a build on that as
Katie Allen: well. You know, even if you are a straight person, if you are. If I
Katie Allen: was a straight woman, I wouldn't be attracted to every, every man.
Katie Allen: Like, you know, there are just different things about different people that make
Katie Allen: someone attractive and, and we all have that. It, you know, it's
Katie Allen: just for me, I notice them differently. Does it cause your
Joanne Lockwood: partners any confusion? Do you have to explain it to them in the same sort
Joanne Lockwood: of way you explain it to me? Yes, is the honest answer.
Katie Allen: I had to have my most recent partner. We had to, we had to have
Katie Allen: the chat, which is, I recognise that you're a cisgender
Katie Allen: straight man. And luckily he's fairly well
Katie Allen: versed in some of these topics because he was a follower of mine on LinkedIn
Katie Allen: to begin with. Sounds good, but. So he knew I was ace
Katie Allen: coming into the, into the conversation and I had to kind of have the,
Katie Allen: the explanation of, in being in a relationship with me, we
Katie Allen: will be in a queer relationship. So you're still a
Katie Allen: straight cisgender man. Like, nothing about you changes, but
Katie Allen: the nature of our relationship is a queer relationship.
Katie Allen: And how do you feel about that? And that was a big conversation and
Katie Allen: luckily we ended up, you know, we're a year down the line now. We ended
Katie Allen: up in a place where that all was okay, but for me it was very
Katie Allen: important to understand that because, you know, again, if I was a bisexual person,
Katie Allen: just because I'm in a relationship with a straight man doesn't now mean I'm straight.
Katie Allen: I would still be bisexual. It just happens to be that
Katie Allen: I'm in the relationship with a specific person. And so this, it's the same for
Katie Allen: being ASOL or any other orientation. So if you were listening, Ace.
Joanne Lockwood: Ace is the kind of accepted abbreviation for asexual. Ace
Joanne Lockwood: or asexual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've. It's
Joanne Lockwood: interesting that my own relationship with my wife Marie here, obviously we got married
Joanne Lockwood: 1987. That's a while ago. 37, a bit years ago.
Joanne Lockwood: And to all intents and purposes, and in
Joanne Lockwood: fact to ourselves, we were a straight couple. A man marrying a
Joanne Lockwood: woman. And then the rules changed about 10 years ago and now There's a
Joanne Lockwood: trans woman married to a CIS woman. And Marie had to
Joanne Lockwood: reinvent her own sense of self and maybe it helped unlock
Joanne Lockwood: some of her deeper thoughts around her own sexuality. And she
Joanne Lockwood: now describes herself as bisexual, which makes go to the cinema
Joanne Lockwood: and watching TV quite interesting because we're, we're both trying to work out which
Joanne Lockwood: one's fancying which one. You know, it doesn't matter if it's a man or, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, the rocker's got his shirt off. Bradley Cooper's
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, looking great today, or whether it's Lady
Joanne Lockwood: Gaga performing or something. So we almost look at each other.
Joanne Lockwood: I know what you're looking at. No, I know what you're looking at. It's like
Joanne Lockwood: we could, we can share more of a spectrum. So I would describe myself
Joanne Lockwood: as, as pan. Probably. Probably more
Joanne Lockwood: pan romantic than anything. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: I, I'm happy to, but I'm more asexual
Joanne Lockwood: when it comes to other things. So, yeah, I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: necessarily sexually attractive, but I'm sexual
Joanne Lockwood: curious, if you like. I, I appreciate looking at people, but not in a, a
Joanne Lockwood: desire way, but in a kind of appreciation way. So it's like the
Katie Allen: aesthetic attraction because that's also a layer of attraction. That kind of. Yeah,
Katie Allen: aesthetic attraction and asexuality is, is. It exists on
Katie Allen: multiple planes because there'll be people who would. Who fall under the asexual
Katie Allen: banner who would be demisexual. So it's like they may not
Katie Allen: experience sexual attraction generally, but once they have a deep emotional bond with
Katie Allen: someone, that is something that becomes present for them.
Katie Allen: And the opposite is also true. There are people who do experience sexual
Katie Allen: attraction up until the point that a deep emotional bond might be forming and
Katie Allen: then they're out. It's not, it's not a thing for them anymore. So it, it
Katie Allen: exists in all of its multiple planes. This is also woke, isn't it? I know
Katie Allen: it's amazing, but one of my curious things is like.
Katie Allen: And maybe I'm overstepping, but don't you think that your
Katie Allen: relationship. Because when you get. I find when you get into these nitty gritty
Katie Allen: conversations with the people that you're in a relationship with, like, it all comes out
Katie Allen: right. You talk all kinds of stuff. And I find that that level
Katie Allen: of communication in a relationship just makes the relationship better. Once you've really
Katie Allen: got into the weeds of all of this stuff, like you can talk about everything.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I would say that one of the things I found most liberating around my
Joanne Lockwood: gender transition is that I no longer have any Secrets.
Joanne Lockwood: There are no fundamental secrets in my life. You cannot blackmail me
Joanne Lockwood: anymore. Because I'm not saying radical
Joanne Lockwood: candour, but it's kind of. I, I don't have to hide anything.
Joanne Lockwood: I've told the biggest secret in my life. I've, I've, I've exposed that. And you're
Joanne Lockwood: right. When I have conversations with my wife, I'm not hiding anything. I'm not, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, she knows who I am. We're not trying to hide anything. And she knows
Joanne Lockwood: who we are. And you, we, we have some really good
Joanne Lockwood: fun. BELLY LAUGHS Often because we
Joanne Lockwood: truly are connected at that sort of cerebral level. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, okay. We've married 37 years, but I genuinely feel that we're, we're closer now
Joanne Lockwood: than we've ever been at that intellectual level, but as soulmates,
Joanne Lockwood: as true life partners that have
Joanne Lockwood: had two children together and spend our lives together and want to spend the rest
Joanne Lockwood: of our lives together. So, yeah, you're right, it is a lot more deep.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not trying to pretend or hide something. I'm not living a
Joanne Lockwood: life where I wish I had something different. I'm living the life I
Joanne Lockwood: love. I think that that comes from being openly honest and be able
Joanne Lockwood: to talk about anything. Absolutely. And again, it's coming
Katie Allen: back to talking, isn't it? If we, if all spaces were
Katie Allen: spaces where we could have conversations like this, where we could just
Katie Allen: honestly be ourselves. I mean, I hate the word authenticity, but
Katie Allen: there is no better word than it. If we could just be who
Katie Allen: we each are without the pressures of society,
Katie Allen: without the judgement of others, we just get to be like. I feel like that
Katie Allen: would be. That's. That's the kind of beautiful world that I want to live in
Katie Allen: and that's why I do the work that I do. I noticed, I was just
Joanne Lockwood: reading the show notes as you're talking there, and one of the things you put
Joanne Lockwood: in there was you want to reach more people with your message of
Joanne Lockwood: curiosity, of accortion and I. E. In quotes. Screw
Joanne Lockwood: perfectionism. Let's just talk. Yeah. So,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, nobody has to be perfect, do they? There's no such
Katie Allen: thing. There is no such thing as perfect. Because in
Katie Allen: whose eyes? By whose standards? Like, it's
Katie Allen: all, like. We're all just messy, imperfect,
Katie Allen: complicated, complex beings. Like, let's just, let's just
Katie Allen: be. We're throwing away billions of tonnes of food every day because the
Joanne Lockwood: apple isn't quite round, the banana's too straight,
Joanne Lockwood: it's got a slight knuckle bruise on it. Yeah, we should be
Joanne Lockwood: embracing Ugly fruit imperfection in each other and in what
Joanne Lockwood: we eat. 100% love the metaphor, Katie. It's
Joanne Lockwood: been absolutely fascinating. I said to you before we went live that I would say
Joanne Lockwood: at around this time that how much I do enjoy the conversation. And it
Joanne Lockwood: sounds a bit inauthentic when you say it up front, but yeah, honestly,
Joanne Lockwood: I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and it's been a lovely opportunity to
Joanne Lockwood: get to know you better. And I'd always wanted to ask you about your
Joanne Lockwood: asexuality. So it's going to help you to pry.
Katie Allen: We can have. We can continue it as well after. Yes, we can continue
Joanne Lockwood: after. And you're going to invite me onto your podcast, so I'm looking forward to
Joanne Lockwood: that. And then you could put the spotlight in my eyes and say, come on,
Joanne Lockwood: Joe, tell me about who you are. I look forward to that. But yeah. So,
Joanne Lockwood: Katie, how do people get a hold of you? I'm sure there are loads of
Joanne Lockwood: people out there listening who want to find out more. Yes. So I am Most
Katie Allen: active on LinkedIn, so you can search me on. There is Katie Allen or Katie
Katie Allen: Allen consulting. You'll find me under both. I am. I do have brown
Katie Allen: hair, so I need to update that image, but you can't miss me. I've got
Katie Allen: a big orange circle. I'm also have my website,
Katie Allen: KatieAllenconsulting.com and yeah, I'm. I mean, I.
Katie Allen: I'm a talker, as everybody will know. So if anybody wants a conversation,
Katie Allen: please feel free to slide into my DMs. I'm always happy to have a chat
Katie Allen: because I. That's how I think we make the world better. Respectfully, slide into your
Joanne Lockwood: DMs. Always sounds a bit smutty. That doesn't slide into my dm. Sliding. It's all
Katie Allen: good. We both know I'm not attracted to anyone, so it's fine. Yeah. So
Joanne Lockwood: no point sending dick pics, is there? No. No. Really? Yeah. If
Katie Allen: any. They're not doing anyone anything for anyone. It's definitely not me.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Katie, thank you so much.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for
Joanne Lockwood: lending your ear and heart to the cause of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord,
Joanne Lockwood: consider subscribing to Inclusion Bytes and become part
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Joanne Lockwood: Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify
Joanne Lockwood: the voices that matter. Got thoughts,
Joanne Lockwood: stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears.
Joanne Lockwood: Reach out to jo
Joanne Lockwood: lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and
Joanne Lockwood: let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
Joanne Lockwood: more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.