WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.880 --> 00:00:11.465 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.545 --> 00:00:15.361 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.433 --> 00:00:18.905 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.945 --> 00:00:22.065 inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:22.145 --> 00:00:25.785 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:25.825 --> 00:00:29.179 a world where everyone not only belongs, but 7 00:00:29.227 --> 00:00:33.011 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:33.043 --> 00:00:36.603 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo 9 00:00:36.779 --> 00:00:40.347 and share stories that resonate deep within. 10 00:00:40.491 --> 00:00:44.027 Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 11 00:00:44.131 --> 00:00:47.339 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.507 --> 00:00:50.895 reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.275 --> 00:00:55.089 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:55.137 --> 00:00:55.417 to 15 00:00:55.481 --> 00:00:59.161 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 16 00:00:59.313 --> 00:01:03.085 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 17 00:01:03.625 --> 00:01:07.425 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 18 00:01:07.465 --> 00:01:10.457 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 19 00:01:10.521 --> 00:01:11.405 Bytes. 20 00:01:14.825 --> 00:01:18.365 And today is episode 138 21 00:01:18.665 --> 00:01:21.873 with the title Embracing Full 22 00:01:21.929 --> 00:01:25.481 Potential. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to 23 00:01:25.513 --> 00:01:29.337 welcome Clare Payne. Claire is a partner 24 00:01:29.481 --> 00:01:33.025 in an international law firm, a tribunal judge, 25 00:01:33.145 --> 00:01:36.285 a non exec director and an academic. 26 00:01:36.945 --> 00:01:40.497 And when I asked Claire to describe her superpower, she said that she is 27 00:01:40.561 --> 00:01:44.365 fascinated by people, their stories and potential, 28 00:01:45.155 --> 00:01:48.955 and that she holds space to allow people to explore who 29 00:01:48.995 --> 00:01:52.363 they are and step into their own power. Hello, 30 00:01:52.419 --> 00:01:55.771 Claire, welcome to the show. Hello, nice to be here. 31 00:01:55.883 --> 00:01:59.251 Absolute pleasure. We chatted a couple of weeks back, I think, and 32 00:01:59.403 --> 00:02:02.011 I've twisted your arm to come and come on the show, so I'm looking forward 33 00:02:02.043 --> 00:02:05.811 to this. So, Claire, tell me a bit more about embracing 34 00:02:05.843 --> 00:02:09.187 your full potential and your passion. So I think for me 35 00:02:09.371 --> 00:02:13.097 this probably goes back if I can take you 36 00:02:13.121 --> 00:02:16.713 back to 2016. With myself, I'd gone up 37 00:02:16.809 --> 00:02:20.657 quite a fast career path in the corporate world, made 38 00:02:20.681 --> 00:02:24.473 it up to partner in the legal capacity very, very quickly 39 00:02:24.649 --> 00:02:28.009 and I'd done all the things that you were supposed to do to be 40 00:02:28.057 --> 00:02:31.881 successful. And I think at or around that time I sort of got 41 00:02:31.913 --> 00:02:35.481 to the stage where I was getting increasingly frustrated at a 42 00:02:35.513 --> 00:02:39.323 management level with going around in circles with the same 43 00:02:39.379 --> 00:02:43.099 conversations and meetings. And I'd also got this feeling 44 00:02:43.147 --> 00:02:46.875 of, you know, having got to where you're supposed to get to, was that it. 45 00:02:46.995 --> 00:02:50.723 And everything felt very much constricted. And I 46 00:02:50.739 --> 00:02:54.067 think for me, I sort of looked around myself and I'm always somebody who looks 47 00:02:54.091 --> 00:02:57.619 around and thinks, well, surely there's a way we can do this better, what's 48 00:02:57.667 --> 00:03:01.203 missing? And around about that time I 49 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:05.091 became very heavily involved with the Chartered Management Institute and in 50 00:03:05.123 --> 00:03:08.765 particular looking at diversity. And one of the things I went 51 00:03:08.805 --> 00:03:12.301 out and started having conversations with other 52 00:03:12.333 --> 00:03:15.741 organisations about was what does diversity mean to 53 00:03:15.773 --> 00:03:18.745 you and what impact does it have in your organisation? 54 00:03:19.405 --> 00:03:22.685 And now statistically at some of them, I was 55 00:03:22.725 --> 00:03:26.525 finding on paper they had the same 56 00:03:26.645 --> 00:03:29.917 credentials, they had the same numbers of people from different 57 00:03:29.981 --> 00:03:33.621 backgrounds, but some of them were seeing huge benefits from 58 00:03:33.653 --> 00:03:37.393 this and others, absolutely not. And that was sort 59 00:03:37.409 --> 00:03:41.137 of stepping off on this journey of realising, what's the difference 60 00:03:41.201 --> 00:03:44.801 here? And it actually all came down to the culture, it came down 61 00:03:44.873 --> 00:03:48.505 to how much they allowed people to be themselves and bring 62 00:03:48.545 --> 00:03:52.265 themselves to work. And so that set me off 63 00:03:52.345 --> 00:03:55.969 on what's been a whirlwind of a journey which after many 64 00:03:56.017 --> 00:03:59.793 years of doing lots of work with lots of different people, landed 65 00:03:59.849 --> 00:04:03.665 me sort of a couple of years after that in a field surrounded 66 00:04:03.705 --> 00:04:06.903 by wolves, looking at. So where 67 00:04:06.959 --> 00:04:10.535 exactly did humans learn to collaborate and where did 68 00:04:10.575 --> 00:04:14.375 this idea that we needed some diversity in our groups 69 00:04:14.415 --> 00:04:17.943 in order to be able to innovate and reach our full potential come from? 70 00:04:18.119 --> 00:04:21.815 And the answer actually comes from about 100,000 years 71 00:04:21.855 --> 00:04:24.315 ago, when we first started interacting with wolves. 72 00:04:25.575 --> 00:04:28.991 Because when we think about wolves, we think about a very 73 00:04:29.063 --> 00:04:32.115 hierarchical society. But that's not what you found, is it? 74 00:04:32.625 --> 00:04:35.921 No, it's an absolute myth. There is no such thing as an alpha 75 00:04:35.953 --> 00:04:39.353 wolf. The way that the wolves family groups 76 00:04:39.409 --> 00:04:42.205 work is very much that they have 77 00:04:42.665 --> 00:04:46.369 specifically bred different personalities and 78 00:04:46.417 --> 00:04:50.169 different perspectives into the group. So each animal that is born into 79 00:04:50.217 --> 00:04:53.125 the group has specifically 80 00:04:53.625 --> 00:04:57.041 set rules. And they're very, very different in 81 00:04:57.073 --> 00:05:00.297 their vision of the world and how they view things and how they deal with 82 00:05:00.321 --> 00:05:03.845 the world. They're good at some things, they're worse at other. 83 00:05:04.245 --> 00:05:07.813 But collectively, when you slot the whole together, 84 00:05:07.989 --> 00:05:11.477 they're stronger for the fact that they've got such a variation in 85 00:05:11.621 --> 00:05:15.381 different perspectives and that capability to innovate and to 86 00:05:15.413 --> 00:05:19.221 gather that much information for making decisions. And that really is 87 00:05:19.253 --> 00:05:23.093 where the heart of their success comes from. I read somewhere that 88 00:05:23.269 --> 00:05:27.061 when you go back to our prehistory, that the 89 00:05:27.093 --> 00:05:30.797 Neanderthal species, because we're Homo 90 00:05:30.821 --> 00:05:34.617 sapiens, Neanderthals, different species, the Neanderthal was bigger, 91 00:05:34.681 --> 00:05:37.953 stronger, faster, more intelligent than Homo 92 00:05:37.969 --> 00:05:41.165 sapiens. But the Neanderthals 93 00:05:41.745 --> 00:05:45.361 died out because they weren't collaborators, whereas 94 00:05:45.393 --> 00:05:49.225 the Homo sapiens, what we are today, we were 95 00:05:49.265 --> 00:05:52.785 more community tribal based. So again, the strength in 96 00:05:52.825 --> 00:05:56.377 numbers, the strength in the diversity of the skill set was 97 00:05:56.401 --> 00:06:00.049 Neanderthals very much individualistic. It's exactly 98 00:06:00.097 --> 00:06:03.737 that. Back looking at the Neanderthals, when 99 00:06:03.761 --> 00:06:07.437 this change, this split first started happening, they 100 00:06:07.461 --> 00:06:11.069 were very much like Primates, which is all about dominance, which is all about 101 00:06:11.157 --> 00:06:14.973 me as an individual. And the problem with an individual 102 00:06:15.029 --> 00:06:18.877 is you're then restricted by your own view of the 103 00:06:18.901 --> 00:06:22.461 world and your own capability. And the sum of one is 104 00:06:22.493 --> 00:06:26.133 one. Whereas what we discovered, obviously, as Homo 105 00:06:26.149 --> 00:06:29.813 sapiens, is that. And what we evolved into is a 106 00:06:29.829 --> 00:06:33.577 group that looked at diversity and went, you know what? The sum 107 00:06:33.601 --> 00:06:37.313 of the group is bigger than the sum of the individuals involved in 108 00:06:37.329 --> 00:06:41.097 it. And what we can achieve as a group is far superior to anything 109 00:06:41.161 --> 00:06:44.953 anybody's ever going to achieve on their own. So we 110 00:06:45.009 --> 00:06:48.425 actively started looking to 111 00:06:48.585 --> 00:06:51.961 work with the strengths of the different individuals 112 00:06:52.153 --> 00:06:55.633 and started looking at how we can collaborate together 113 00:06:55.809 --> 00:06:59.601 in order to achieve something bigger. And that's what ultimately allowed us 114 00:06:59.633 --> 00:07:03.315 to progress. So where did we as humans go wrong then? 115 00:07:03.355 --> 00:07:07.163 Because if that's how we evolved, what we are seem to 116 00:07:07.179 --> 00:07:11.015 be now as a species is based on alphas. 117 00:07:11.395 --> 00:07:14.851 We talk about this bell curve of normality where 118 00:07:15.003 --> 00:07:18.251 we have to sort of gravitate towards the centre of that bell 119 00:07:18.283 --> 00:07:21.763 curve. And if you're an outlier, you're seen as less 120 00:07:21.819 --> 00:07:25.531 valuable. It is interesting how we've ended up here. I mean, 121 00:07:25.563 --> 00:07:29.287 the best explanation that I've had actually comes 122 00:07:29.311 --> 00:07:32.715 from a lot of stories that you see in the indigenous people around the world. 123 00:07:33.135 --> 00:07:36.035 For them, you see, there's a big difference between 124 00:07:36.575 --> 00:07:40.063 how we in the west, few wolves, we've got our stories of, you 125 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.855 know, the Three Little Pigs, the Big Bad Wolf, the Little Red 126 00:07:43.895 --> 00:07:47.607 Riding Hood, we've got, you know, the wolves and the horror stories that 127 00:07:47.631 --> 00:07:51.007 chase people through the woods and. And we've got a very negative view of them. 128 00:07:51.031 --> 00:07:54.355 Whereas if you go back to the indigenous people, they see them very much 129 00:07:54.855 --> 00:07:58.487 still with this view that they are teachers, that they are guides, that they 130 00:07:58.511 --> 00:08:02.327 are to be looked to as a source of wisdom. And 131 00:08:02.471 --> 00:08:06.079 across the world, there are variations within indigenous 132 00:08:06.127 --> 00:08:09.911 people of the same story, which is about humans breaking with 133 00:08:09.943 --> 00:08:13.671 wolves and this hope that one day that we will rejoin 134 00:08:13.703 --> 00:08:16.743 with them. And the point at which we broke with them was around about the 135 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:20.511 time that we started agriculture, because prior to that, we 136 00:08:20.543 --> 00:08:24.211 were very much in tune with our environment. So we were in tune with each 137 00:08:24.243 --> 00:08:27.307 other, and we were also in tune with the environment that we were living in. 138 00:08:27.411 --> 00:08:30.803 We worked with the seasons, we worked with what was available to us. We 139 00:08:30.859 --> 00:08:34.611 foraged, we hunted, and that's very much how we survived. 140 00:08:34.803 --> 00:08:38.595 The change came when we started agriculture, 141 00:08:38.635 --> 00:08:42.251 when we started manipulating our environment, when we started 142 00:08:42.323 --> 00:08:45.803 saying, actually, we're not going to do with what's Actually there 143 00:08:45.939 --> 00:08:49.579 naturally occurring, we're going to start cultivating things to serve 144 00:08:49.627 --> 00:08:53.463 us. And at that point the wolves also split. And that's how 145 00:08:53.479 --> 00:08:57.303 we ended up the domesticated dogs, which are the ones that stuck with us 146 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:00.991 as we almost domesticated ourselves and the wolves who carried 147 00:09:01.023 --> 00:09:04.847 on being the wolves. And the more we've domesticated ourselves, 148 00:09:04.951 --> 00:09:08.675 I mean, we've had huge leaps forward in terms of what we've achieved 149 00:09:09.215 --> 00:09:12.487 as a species, huge leaps forward in what we are capable 150 00:09:12.551 --> 00:09:16.279 of. But unfortunately, somewhere along the line we also lost 151 00:09:16.327 --> 00:09:20.099 some bits of the operating manual. So I think we forgot 152 00:09:20.187 --> 00:09:23.715 about the benefit of having that diversity and of having those 153 00:09:23.755 --> 00:09:27.171 outliers and realising that quite often that's where 154 00:09:27.323 --> 00:09:31.099 the innovation comes from. That's where the interesting challenge 155 00:09:31.187 --> 00:09:34.611 or the different way of seeing a problem or seeing a 156 00:09:34.643 --> 00:09:38.267 solution comes from. That lets us leap forward. But 157 00:09:38.291 --> 00:09:41.971 we also lost a number of other things that help us reach our potential. 158 00:09:42.163 --> 00:09:45.839 So for example, now we are, we are particularly poor at regulating 159 00:09:46.027 --> 00:09:49.447 our own neurological systems. I mean, wolves are an 160 00:09:49.471 --> 00:09:52.671 absolute master of ensuring that they keep in 161 00:09:52.703 --> 00:09:56.151 regulation. So what, what's happened with us is 162 00:09:56.303 --> 00:09:59.615 we've, we've got this system and you probably hear people talk about 163 00:09:59.775 --> 00:10:02.967 polyvagal system, but 164 00:10:03.151 --> 00:10:06.711 essentially in a nutshell, if we are in a 165 00:10:06.743 --> 00:10:09.959 regulated state, we are in the ventral vagal system, which means we're open and we 166 00:10:09.967 --> 00:10:13.199 can connect to lots of people. It means we're in connection, we can see 167 00:10:13.247 --> 00:10:16.959 opportunities, we're ready to take in board information, we can take 168 00:10:17.007 --> 00:10:20.739 in lots, lots of different ideas and we can make 169 00:10:20.787 --> 00:10:24.315 decisions much quicker. The difficulty about modern life 170 00:10:24.395 --> 00:10:28.091 is it keeps us in the parts of that system that are our fight, flight 171 00:10:28.123 --> 00:10:31.755 or freeze. Because a lot of us are overstimulated and we're not 172 00:10:31.795 --> 00:10:35.291 regulating ourselves. And what that does is when you pull 173 00:10:35.323 --> 00:10:38.907 yourself down into that stressed part of your 174 00:10:38.931 --> 00:10:42.715 neurological system and you start permanently living there, you 175 00:10:42.755 --> 00:10:46.305 start finding it more difficult to connect with people. You 176 00:10:46.345 --> 00:10:50.089 start wanting to focus on where's the threat coming from as opposed 177 00:10:50.137 --> 00:10:53.793 to where's the opportunity. And at that point, 178 00:10:53.889 --> 00:10:57.489 things that are different from us or ideas that are coming 179 00:10:57.537 --> 00:11:01.217 in are at best seen as a bit overwhelming 180 00:11:01.401 --> 00:11:05.201 or at worst seen as being something of a threat. And at 181 00:11:05.233 --> 00:11:08.689 that point we actually actively stop collaborating with each other. 182 00:11:08.857 --> 00:11:12.635 So it's not just been about as wanting to 183 00:11:12.675 --> 00:11:16.035 control, it's also been about this gradual 184 00:11:16.115 --> 00:11:19.779 disconnect. We've almost started programming into 185 00:11:19.827 --> 00:11:23.643 our neurological system. But the really good thing about it is 186 00:11:23.779 --> 00:11:27.515 all the hard wiring is still there and we are perfectly capable 187 00:11:27.555 --> 00:11:31.075 of reversing that if we just bring some consciousness around how we're 188 00:11:31.115 --> 00:11:34.947 managing ourselves and how we're interacting with each other, particularly in the 189 00:11:34.971 --> 00:11:38.701 workplace. I think it's fascinating. 190 00:11:38.813 --> 00:11:42.573 I agree with completely. And our vagus nerve, which 191 00:11:42.589 --> 00:11:46.265 is, I guess what you're talking about here is when you're referring to it, it's 192 00:11:46.845 --> 00:11:50.613 connected directly to our adrenaline glands, our digestive 193 00:11:50.669 --> 00:11:54.381 system and that fight flight freeze mechanism. And we are 194 00:11:54.533 --> 00:11:58.237 often in a state of heightened alert. And it's very difficult 195 00:11:58.301 --> 00:12:01.629 to live in modern society 196 00:12:01.717 --> 00:12:05.445 without being on that lookout. I guess you've got to go cheque out 197 00:12:05.485 --> 00:12:09.223 of, of the modern world, live in a commune, go 198 00:12:09.239 --> 00:12:12.647 back to nature in order to step out those stresses which 199 00:12:12.671 --> 00:12:15.847 we're all facing. I mean, you work in the legal profession, 200 00:12:16.031 --> 00:12:19.095 that's a very, well, traditionally male 201 00:12:19.135 --> 00:12:22.551 dominated alpha type environment, especially if you're in the 202 00:12:22.583 --> 00:12:26.215 city. It is, absolutely. And I think this is 203 00:12:26.255 --> 00:12:30.071 why I became so acutely aware of this as well. Because very much 204 00:12:30.103 --> 00:12:33.565 in the legal environment you don't show weakness. 205 00:12:33.945 --> 00:12:37.297 And I think particularly as a litigator, 206 00:12:37.481 --> 00:12:40.753 when I'm working in conflicts, there is this 207 00:12:40.809 --> 00:12:44.345 idea that you are out there on your own 208 00:12:44.505 --> 00:12:48.209 and that you are fighting the good fight and that 209 00:12:48.297 --> 00:12:51.897 quite often there is, there is no room for compromise. And this is 210 00:12:51.921 --> 00:12:55.593 how parties end up at loggerheads. Of course, a more modern 211 00:12:55.649 --> 00:12:58.801 way that we're, that a lot of people are coming around to in terms of 212 00:12:58.833 --> 00:13:02.657 conflict resolution is thankfully these days we're 213 00:13:02.681 --> 00:13:05.933 seeing a lot more things like mediation and like people having 214 00:13:05.989 --> 00:13:09.653 conversations and bringing each, you know, bringing parties to the table 215 00:13:09.829 --> 00:13:13.665 to actually see how they can collaborate and finding a solution rather than just 216 00:13:14.045 --> 00:13:17.493 digging themselves into a trench and hurling things at each other from either 217 00:13:17.549 --> 00:13:21.261 side until one of them gives in. Yes, I think that's 218 00:13:21.293 --> 00:13:24.865 something I'm a lot more sensitive to being in the legal profession, 219 00:13:25.405 --> 00:13:28.645 particularly being a litigator where I'm dealing with contentious 220 00:13:28.725 --> 00:13:32.325 environments because people become very entrenched and they don't want 221 00:13:32.365 --> 00:13:35.937 to talk to each other, they don't want to communicate, they don't want to collaborate. 222 00:13:36.101 --> 00:13:39.833 And they become very stuck in this, 223 00:13:39.929 --> 00:13:43.641 in this world where they've closed down and everything is a 224 00:13:43.673 --> 00:13:47.177 threat and everything is taken in a 225 00:13:47.201 --> 00:13:50.929 negative way. And actually one of the joys of 226 00:13:51.057 --> 00:13:54.897 the direction in which modern legal sort of 227 00:13:54.921 --> 00:13:58.465 litigation work is going is that we're seeing a lot more 228 00:13:58.505 --> 00:14:02.209 mediation now, a lot more people willing to get into 229 00:14:02.257 --> 00:14:05.801 a meeting and lawyers willing to get their clients to the 230 00:14:05.833 --> 00:14:09.637 table to have a discussion where they can start collaborating about how 231 00:14:09.661 --> 00:14:12.985 they can Find a solution and find a way forward. 232 00:14:13.325 --> 00:14:17.157 That's not to say people's viewpoints aren't entirely valid, that's not 233 00:14:17.181 --> 00:14:20.933 to say their emotions aren't entirely valid, but finding a 234 00:14:20.949 --> 00:14:24.349 way in which they can release those in a positive 235 00:14:24.437 --> 00:14:28.109 fashion, gain some understanding between each other, and actually 236 00:14:28.157 --> 00:14:30.949 get to the point where they've got a solution which would be far better than 237 00:14:30.997 --> 00:14:34.669 anything a court could ever order is really, 238 00:14:34.717 --> 00:14:38.085 really helpful. So I think there is definitely a 239 00:14:38.125 --> 00:14:41.693 recognition now, certainly within legal, the legal 240 00:14:41.749 --> 00:14:45.557 industry, of moving away from this being it's all 241 00:14:45.581 --> 00:14:49.181 about me on my own. And I can't show any weakness to being able to 242 00:14:49.213 --> 00:14:52.941 say, well, hang on, maybe it's a case of just having a bit of understanding, 243 00:14:52.973 --> 00:14:56.645 of perspective. I'm not sure I would say it's gone as far as having 244 00:14:56.685 --> 00:15:00.341 some empathy yet, but it's certainly starting to 245 00:15:00.373 --> 00:15:04.109 take steps in the right direction. And I think the solutions that people 246 00:15:04.157 --> 00:15:07.847 are seeing in terms of being able to craft 247 00:15:08.031 --> 00:15:11.671 answers to problems and being able to find ways forward that 248 00:15:11.703 --> 00:15:15.071 don't end up costing a fortune and years of 249 00:15:15.103 --> 00:15:18.647 litigation in court are making a significant difference to the business 250 00:15:18.711 --> 00:15:22.175 world. That must be a change in strategy from 251 00:15:22.335 --> 00:15:25.847 within the judicial system, I guess, because the judicial system 252 00:15:25.951 --> 00:15:29.711 effectively breeds its clients. And if you're engaging 253 00:15:29.743 --> 00:15:33.491 with an advisor, a solicitor, a lawyer, and 254 00:15:33.523 --> 00:15:36.683 they want you to litigate, they want to earn their fee, 255 00:15:36.859 --> 00:15:39.995 then they're going to push you in that route because it's that 256 00:15:40.035 --> 00:15:43.379 feudalistic conflict that the legal system seems to thrive 257 00:15:43.427 --> 00:15:46.963 on. And you look at divorce, you look at 258 00:15:47.019 --> 00:15:50.255 tribunals, you look at companies and individuals, 259 00:15:50.675 --> 00:15:54.243 the first stop hasn't always been talk first, has it? It's always 260 00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:57.819 been build your army and get 261 00:15:57.867 --> 00:16:01.695 support. It has. And I think, I think certainly in the legal world it's 262 00:16:01.735 --> 00:16:05.367 changing for a number of reasons. One of them is that the courts are now 263 00:16:05.551 --> 00:16:09.255 very much looking at promoting mediation 264 00:16:09.335 --> 00:16:12.895 first with parties. There is an expectation there that 265 00:16:12.935 --> 00:16:16.623 parties should have had those conversations. So we saw 266 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.295 back in the 1990s the introduction of pre 267 00:16:20.335 --> 00:16:24.167 action protocols, which required parties to set out their cases to 268 00:16:24.191 --> 00:16:27.407 try and get some level of understanding and encourage them to start 269 00:16:27.471 --> 00:16:31.245 talking. That's now progressing to the point 270 00:16:31.285 --> 00:16:35.045 where we've got ordered mediation in certain cases and we've also 271 00:16:35.085 --> 00:16:38.789 got judicial mediation. So, for example, in my tribunal, there's a 272 00:16:38.797 --> 00:16:42.461 number of us that are trained mediators and if we say, see 273 00:16:42.493 --> 00:16:45.941 a case where we think, actually, do you know what would be really helpful is 274 00:16:45.973 --> 00:16:49.665 actually these parties just need to get in a room and talk to each other. 275 00:16:49.965 --> 00:16:53.717 We can order that and facilitate that before we send 276 00:16:53.741 --> 00:16:57.525 it to anybody to start making orders for them to do disclosure 277 00:16:57.565 --> 00:17:01.351 and make judicial decisions on what's presented to us. Because 278 00:17:01.423 --> 00:17:04.647 actually quite often that means that there is a much better long term solution for 279 00:17:04.671 --> 00:17:08.207 those parties. Particularly because I work in the area of property where people have to 280 00:17:08.231 --> 00:17:11.887 carry on living with each other or working with each other afterwards. 281 00:17:12.071 --> 00:17:15.915 That's increasingly important. I think from the other side, 282 00:17:16.775 --> 00:17:20.527 the day of the traditional law firm where everything is 283 00:17:20.591 --> 00:17:24.351 on billable hours is numbered. There are still some 284 00:17:24.383 --> 00:17:28.007 firms out there where the solicitors working for 285 00:17:28.031 --> 00:17:31.519 them or basically all of their targets are based on how many 286 00:17:31.567 --> 00:17:34.863 hours have you stuck on the clock and how many hours have you billed the 287 00:17:34.879 --> 00:17:38.559 client. And for them, that does drive very much 288 00:17:38.607 --> 00:17:41.871 a culture where they will get 289 00:17:42.063 --> 00:17:45.791 each individual case to last as long as it possibly can and they want 290 00:17:45.823 --> 00:17:48.607 it to go to court because they're going to make more money out of it 291 00:17:48.631 --> 00:17:52.335 bluntly, and they're going to get more hours on the system. The difference that you 292 00:17:52.375 --> 00:17:56.127 have when you start pushing back at that model, 293 00:17:56.271 --> 00:18:00.071 and it's certainly something that Gunnar Cook, which is the firm that I'm 294 00:18:00.103 --> 00:18:03.943 part of, has done. The reason we're called a challenger firm is because 295 00:18:03.999 --> 00:18:07.455 we don't run on hourly. We don't have targets of 296 00:18:07.615 --> 00:18:10.999 hours on the clock or hourly rates that we've billed or anything. 297 00:18:11.167 --> 00:18:14.655 What we judge ourselves on is the net promoter score, 298 00:18:14.815 --> 00:18:18.555 which is at the end of a case, we ask a client, 299 00:18:18.975 --> 00:18:22.167 on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely are you to recommend us to 300 00:18:22.191 --> 00:18:25.879 someone else? I have, we done a good job. And as long as 301 00:18:26.007 --> 00:18:29.471 they've said we've done a good job, we're happy with the 302 00:18:29.503 --> 00:18:33.247 outcome and we do fixed fees as much as we can. And when you're 303 00:18:33.271 --> 00:18:36.663 doing fixed fees and when you're looking to get the best outcome for a 304 00:18:36.679 --> 00:18:40.395 client, it changes very much how you come at 305 00:18:40.735 --> 00:18:43.871 managing that dispute. Because what you're looking for is an early 306 00:18:43.943 --> 00:18:47.359 solution. And you know, it might sound 307 00:18:47.407 --> 00:18:51.063 counterintuitive, but actually that's when you see clients 308 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.663 where you build a real long term trust relationship with them. That's when they come 309 00:18:54.679 --> 00:18:58.003 back to you time and again because you solve the problem. So they come back 310 00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:00.475 to you with the problem after that and the problem after that, and the problem 311 00:19:00.515 --> 00:19:03.579 after that. The other thing is you do an awful lot less 312 00:19:03.627 --> 00:19:07.315 marketing because they're delighted with the work that you've done 313 00:19:07.355 --> 00:19:10.923 and they tell everybody that they know that they should instruct you. 314 00:19:11.059 --> 00:19:14.867 So actually it's not curtailed the amount of profit 315 00:19:14.931 --> 00:19:18.683 the law firm can make. If anything, it makes the profits 316 00:19:18.739 --> 00:19:22.435 higher and it makes it more sustainable. But it is counter to how 317 00:19:22.475 --> 00:19:26.075 law firms have worked for a long time. So there's a push from both sides 318 00:19:26.115 --> 00:19:29.655 to recognise that. And I think there is also a big push from 319 00:19:29.695 --> 00:19:33.423 clients who are waking up to see that actually they don't 320 00:19:33.439 --> 00:19:36.711 want their businesses stalled whilst we have arguments with each 321 00:19:36.743 --> 00:19:40.271 other. So I think in the legal industry things 322 00:19:40.343 --> 00:19:44.135 are starting to change. I think what I see from my, 323 00:19:44.175 --> 00:19:47.991 with my non exec director hat on is in the boardroom things are 324 00:19:48.023 --> 00:19:51.583 starting to change as well because I have noticed 325 00:19:51.639 --> 00:19:55.343 that there is less box ticking going on with a lot of the 326 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:59.127 organisations that I work with. So they're not just looking for somebody who 327 00:19:59.151 --> 00:20:02.731 ticks a box for diversity, they're also looking for 328 00:20:02.763 --> 00:20:06.491 somebody who brings a very different perspective to the table. They want 329 00:20:06.523 --> 00:20:10.227 someone who's had different life experiences, they want someone who's got a 330 00:20:10.251 --> 00:20:14.035 different background, they want something who's got a different skill set and they want 331 00:20:14.075 --> 00:20:16.915 all of that to be at the table in the boardroom so that when they're 332 00:20:16.955 --> 00:20:20.691 having discussions about solving problems, again, it's not 333 00:20:20.723 --> 00:20:24.467 just groupthink with one viewpoint going around in circles, 334 00:20:24.651 --> 00:20:28.483 they're actually genuinely getting a number of different solutions 335 00:20:28.539 --> 00:20:32.267 on the table and they're genuinely getting the right questions asked to 336 00:20:32.291 --> 00:20:35.947 explore things from different perspectives. So I think we are, we are in a 337 00:20:35.971 --> 00:20:39.427 very exciting time where, you know, as I said, the 338 00:20:39.451 --> 00:20:43.163 indigenous people have got this story about this time when we almost come back 339 00:20:43.219 --> 00:20:47.011 round to the way that the wolves think. And for 340 00:20:47.043 --> 00:20:50.707 me, I think I'm starting to see that curve naturally starting 341 00:20:50.731 --> 00:20:54.571 to happen in the way that we are driving ourselves 342 00:20:54.643 --> 00:20:58.405 now. But the world at large seems to be getting worse. I 343 00:20:58.405 --> 00:21:02.237 mean, we've just, we're recording this mid November, in fact, 344 00:21:02.261 --> 00:21:05.985 Armistice day on the 11th, the 11th. 345 00:21:06.365 --> 00:21:09.733 And we've just come off the back of a US presidential election where it's very 346 00:21:09.749 --> 00:21:13.429 much driven by divisive politics. And our 347 00:21:13.477 --> 00:21:16.517 own two party system in the UK is also a 348 00:21:16.541 --> 00:21:20.245 divisive in government and opposition. The opposition 349 00:21:20.325 --> 00:21:23.833 have to oppose everything the government do. We're not a collaborative 350 00:21:23.969 --> 00:21:27.777 government in the uk, are we? No, I agree, I agree. And it's 351 00:21:27.801 --> 00:21:31.537 very divisive and I think politics, modern politics, does breed that 352 00:21:31.561 --> 00:21:35.089 in some ways. But I think it is 353 00:21:35.137 --> 00:21:38.045 interesting in the way in which we 354 00:21:38.505 --> 00:21:42.353 consume our news, because we consume our news focused 355 00:21:42.369 --> 00:21:46.137 on the negative. What we don't consume our news on is focused on 356 00:21:46.161 --> 00:21:49.609 how many people perhaps voted for something that was a bit more 357 00:21:49.737 --> 00:21:53.259 liberal and a bit more collaborative. And I think, 358 00:21:53.427 --> 00:21:56.615 you know, because of the way we are wired 359 00:21:57.035 --> 00:22:00.843 to look for threat, people who are selling newspapers, who 360 00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:04.347 are selling, you know, social media stories and everything else 361 00:22:04.531 --> 00:22:08.307 will promote the thing that is a threat. What they 362 00:22:08.331 --> 00:22:12.171 won't do is tell you the hundred good news stories, the 363 00:22:12.203 --> 00:22:15.995 hundred little moves here, there and everywhere else, the things that have happened 364 00:22:16.115 --> 00:22:19.875 day to day in the lives of real people and the shifts that are happening 365 00:22:19.915 --> 00:22:23.421 and the thinking and the way in which people interact with each other on a 366 00:22:23.453 --> 00:22:26.925 personal basis in favour of looking at these 367 00:22:26.965 --> 00:22:30.461 big. These bigger stories. Now, I'm not belittling 368 00:22:30.653 --> 00:22:33.905 at all or suggesting you ignore 369 00:22:34.245 --> 00:22:38.037 the seismic shifts that are happening, but I think it's a case of 370 00:22:38.061 --> 00:22:41.837 getting some perspective on it. And I think you get a choice of how you 371 00:22:41.861 --> 00:22:43.917 get to view the world and you get a choice of how you want to 372 00:22:43.941 --> 00:22:47.581 interact with the world. And you can choose to view it as 373 00:22:47.773 --> 00:22:51.077 doom and gloom and there's no hope, or you can choose to look for the 374 00:22:51.101 --> 00:22:54.235 hope and to continue making the change in your own sphere of 375 00:22:54.275 --> 00:22:58.059 influence. And if we all keep doing that, imagine what we could achieve between 376 00:22:58.107 --> 00:23:01.851 us. Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here. 377 00:23:01.923 --> 00:23:05.411 I completely converted. I'm seeing a lot of 378 00:23:05.443 --> 00:23:09.115 pushback on edi, dei, whatever 379 00:23:09.155 --> 00:23:12.883 acronym you want to use. And what you're saying is you're 380 00:23:12.899 --> 00:23:16.735 seeing a shift in the legal profession towards mediation 381 00:23:17.285 --> 00:23:20.585 in the EDI space. People are kind of dismissing it. 382 00:23:21.645 --> 00:23:25.461 It's become too entrenched in identity politics, become too entrenched 383 00:23:25.493 --> 00:23:28.565 in this, that the other. It's not delivering any benefits 384 00:23:28.645 --> 00:23:32.173 anymore. We need to cancel all the EDI budgets, fire all the 385 00:23:32.189 --> 00:23:35.941 EDI teams. Was EDI ever 386 00:23:35.973 --> 00:23:39.665 doing anything worthwhile in business? I think. And I think 387 00:23:41.045 --> 00:23:44.185 this comes back to what I was saying about the box ticking. 388 00:23:45.035 --> 00:23:48.451 And, you know, there are organisations, and there are a lot of organisations out 389 00:23:48.483 --> 00:23:52.155 there that are dealing with so much regulation now that 390 00:23:52.195 --> 00:23:55.971 actually EDI has just been put on the regulation pilots. Another hoop 391 00:23:56.003 --> 00:23:59.331 that they need to jump through. So they need to collect data, they need to 392 00:23:59.363 --> 00:24:02.875 tick boxes, they need to make sure things are worded in a certain 393 00:24:02.915 --> 00:24:06.675 way. And what they're doing is they're jumping through hoops without 394 00:24:06.755 --> 00:24:10.323 really looking at why this would be of benefit to them as an 395 00:24:10.339 --> 00:24:14.021 organisation. And I think at that point it 396 00:24:14.053 --> 00:24:17.709 does become a chore, it becomes something that actually loses 397 00:24:17.757 --> 00:24:21.485 the meaning behind it. Whereas I think those 398 00:24:21.525 --> 00:24:25.197 organisations that are smart, those organisations that are 399 00:24:25.381 --> 00:24:28.941 reporting that huge seismic shift in the. In the 400 00:24:28.973 --> 00:24:32.345 bottom line. Those huge impacts on workplace culture 401 00:24:32.725 --> 00:24:35.985