Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for
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Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 139
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Turning Lead into
Joanne Lockwood: Gold, and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome
Joanne Lockwood: John Sands. John is a certified
Joanne Lockwood: ERG trainer who employs. Sorry, empowers,
Joanne Lockwood: no less employee resource groups leaders, to unlock
Joanne Lockwood: their full potential. Drawing on his vast experience as a founder,
Joanne Lockwood: leader and ally, he brings a fresh and impactful perspective
Joanne Lockwood: to creating inclusive workplaces that celebrate
Joanne Lockwood: diversity and drive meaningful change. When I
Joanne Lockwood: asked John to describe his superpower, he said
Joanne Lockwood: empathy, with the added alchemy of transforming
Joanne Lockwood: challenges into golden opportunities for connections
Joanne Lockwood: and growth. Hello, John. Welcome to the show.
John Sands: Hello, Jo. And thank you very much for inviting me. It's
John Sands: a privilege to come onto your podcast. Yeah, it
Joanne Lockwood: was great. I say we randomly met. I mean, in the world scale of things.
Joanne Lockwood: It wasn't a planned meeting. I was invited to a function you
Joanne Lockwood: were co hosting in London and we got chatting and in fact, we
Joanne Lockwood: found we had a lot in common. Similar age, similar military
Joanne Lockwood: background, similar outlook on life. Yeah. And
John Sands: similar place of living as well. So we're not far. Neighbors.
John Sands: Almost. I'd say almost neighbours. Yeah. We've got the same weather. If we look
Joanne Lockwood: out the window. It's been snowing this morning. Yes. Yeah. And
John Sands: very, very cold. So I'm wrapping up and the heating
John Sands: is on and it's all. Yeah. Snuggled down to get some warmth in my
John Sands: bones. Yeah. So where are we? We're sort of midway through
Joanne Lockwood: November or later. Later in November, actually, in 2024.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, it's a bit of an early cold snap. Yes. Yeah,
John Sands: absolutely. John turning lead into
Joanne Lockwood: gold. Tell me what. Yeah, you sent me
John Sands: the questions and you asked my superpower and as is. I
John Sands: couldn't just say, well, it's to empower ergs et cetera,
John Sands: which obviously it is. But I wanted to put something in there about
John Sands: turning lead into gold, and now you brought me to
John Sands: task with that. So I've now got to think of what I mean.
John Sands: So if I was to use that for
John Sands: my professional role, it would be taking
John Sands: ideas and putting them into something that you can use
John Sands: and make a difference. So when I'm working with employee
John Sands: resource groups, you can call them ergs, call them, you know, business
John Sands: resource groups, call them affinity groups, whatever you want to call them, and
John Sands: taking these ideas and joining the dots with these
John Sands: people. And it's not normally me creating that goal. The goal
John Sands: is created by the people that, you know that I'm teaching. So
John Sands: I'm. Or not teaching, or just could be facilitating, if you like,
John Sands: but getting these people to speak and to take an idea and make it
John Sands: real and for it to really make a difference in the
John Sands: workplace. And we were chatting, Jo, before we started recording
John Sands: this, about how the
John Sands: ERGs can make a difference within an organization
John Sands: is exactly that. By making these
John Sands: people, not making them, but helping these people
John Sands: to make good what they want to be doing with their community
John Sands: groups. So I would say that would be. That would be gold,
John Sands: really. And like I say, the gold is created by other people, not me. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure we've got people listening who probably not familiar with the
Joanne Lockwood: raison d'etre of a ERG employee resource group, staff
Joanne Lockwood: network. How do they manifest themselves? What's their
Joanne Lockwood: purpose in the world? Well, it's. It's giving
John Sands: people a safe place within an
John Sands: organization. And this could be, you know, small. It could be a hundred
John Sands: people, up to thousands of people. And just to give you
John Sands: my background, I work for a large
John Sands: corporation and I was part of the DE and I
John Sands: another lovely. We love an acronym, don't we? Diversity, equity and
John Sands: inclusion. So I was part of that within
John Sands: this company. And I helped to
John Sands: create an ERG around disability
John Sands: and also was an ally for the
John Sands: LGBTQIA erg, the Black alliance
John Sands: erg. And also I was part of the Veterans
John Sands: erg. So these are groups of people who want to
John Sands: come together. I call it a safe space. And they want to join
John Sands: forces and make the workplace
John Sands: better for them to help for
John Sands: the issues and challenges that they have and create a group
John Sands: where they can talk about their challenges, they can
John Sands: hopefully make a difference within the company to do
John Sands: that. With the disability ERG that I was a co
John Sands: founder of, because of my experience with COVID we looked
John Sands: at how my company could better support people with
John Sands: disability. And because A disability erg. And I know we
John Sands: hesitate to use the word disability, but the challenges that people,
John Sands: even if they're neurodiverse, if they're physically
John Sands: disabled, if like me, it was
John Sands: again hesitate to use it, but I will. A mental issue around my
John Sands: experience with COVID how they can be supported with things such as,
John Sands: you know, help within the workplace, getting into
John Sands: work, time off from work when needed. So it gives you
John Sands: that support around you with people who are like
John Sands: minded and facing the same challenges. And that works
John Sands: across all employee resource groups. We had Latinos and
John Sands: Nidos, which are Latin American, a support group, like I said,
John Sands: the LGBTQ +IA group,
John Sands: disability. There was women in technology, there
John Sands: was, you know, so many groups that we had within there.
John Sands: I was lucky enough to be working at a company that supported them and
John Sands: allowed them to do it. So, so that's what an erg, it's a group of
John Sands: friends, I suppose. A group of friends. A group of like minded people helping
John Sands: to make the workplace a better place to go to. Yeah. Because they can be
Joanne Lockwood: extremely powerful from an organizational perspective as well.
Joanne Lockwood: It's from my understanding the perfect relationship is where the symbiosis,
Joanne Lockwood: where the members of the ERG feel that advocacy and
Joanne Lockwood: belongingness and safe space to better be
Joanne Lockwood: themselves. Also the organization benefits from having
Joanne Lockwood: sounding boards. They can use them strategically or even tactically
Joanne Lockwood: to look at challenges, can't they? Yeah, well, we used to work
John Sands: quite heavily with the recruitment side
John Sands: because we're finding more and more now when people go look at
John Sands: joining a company, they'll go to their webpage, they'll look at
John Sands: what diversity or ergs that they
John Sands: have within that company and that will help them to make the decision as to
John Sands: whether they should join. But not only that, also once they
John Sands: are there is making sure they don't leave because I don't
John Sands: have the exact figures to hand. But the cost of, you know, if you
John Sands: bring someone on board, you train them up, you bring them into the company, you
John Sands: go through all that process which takes a while and then they just leave.
John Sands: The cost to the company is huge. So by giving them a
John Sands: workplace where you know, they want to stay, then that,
John Sands: that really helps. We can have rose tinted
John Sands: glasses and say, well, companies just want to do it because they want to support
John Sands: their workplace, but they also want numbers. They also want to say, well okay,
John Sands: I'm doing this, but why? How is it helping? Because they're a business and
John Sands: you understand that. But it's quite easily, I think, quite
John Sands: easy, I think to, to, to bring, put figures together and to support
John Sands: why you should have an erg and why you should invest in that.
John Sands: Because, you know, there's, there's so much you gain from it. And if an employee
John Sands: doesn't see it, and not all do, there are some that are quite, they
John Sands: will, they will say the right words and they will say, oh
John Sands: yeah, we need EIGs because everyone else is doing it and they're not supported. And
John Sands: that's another big pitfall for this kind of thing is they'll say,
John Sands: yeah, we need it, we want it on the website. We want to show we're,
John Sands: you know, we're a diverse corporation. But then they don't,
John Sands: they don't help to make that survive. So it with us on the vine,
John Sands: basically. And that's another important part of
John Sands: not just having ergs, but making sure that they flourish and making sure
John Sands: that the people within them feel they're being supported either through money or
John Sands: by the, you know, board level
John Sands: sponsorship, et cetera, is just as important as saying, yeah, let's do it and
John Sands: let's not support it. Which happens.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I was at an event last week, I think it was,
Joanne Lockwood: and Bruce Daisley, the culture
Joanne Lockwood: expert, ex VP of Twitter Europe, I think he
Joanne Lockwood: was there talking. And one of the things, one of his insightful
Joanne Lockwood: throwaways is a real sense of valuing and
Joanne Lockwood: judging employee experience and, and the belongingness in
Joanne Lockwood: organization is that one good sign is your best friend works at
Joanne Lockwood: your organization. Yeah. And ERGs can foster that
Joanne Lockwood: belonging and create you, if you like,
Joanne Lockwood: friends outside of your day to day colleagues in an
Joanne Lockwood: organization. And we know that creates stickiness
Joanne Lockwood: within the culture, doesn't it? I think absolutely. And you're
John Sands: right there. And that's why I feel with ergs,
John Sands: allyship is so important because we're not only, look,
John Sands: we're not only looking to support and educate the people within
John Sands: that group, but we're also looking to then support people
John Sands: outside of that group to understand. And education
John Sands: is very important. And that's why I said allies is, you
John Sands: know, make, make a huge difference because you can, you can preach
John Sands: to the choir, but you really want to
John Sands: educate people outside because if you don't do
John Sands: that and you just, and we mentioned earlier, like I say
John Sands: before we came on the podcast about an echo room, you're just talking to people
John Sands: who want to hear that you, you need to for a true
John Sands: erg to work or is, is to, is to bring on
John Sands: people who maybe are a bit skeptical about it. And we're finding a
John Sands: lot, and especially in our Current political climate. We are finding a
John Sands: lot where, where that skepticism
John Sands: is becoming more and more prevalent, where there's a backlash
John Sands: towards diversity. They are saying, well, we
John Sands: actually want to get rid of diversity. We don't want that to happen. And there's
John Sands: that polarization between this is diversity and this is,
John Sands: you know, what we want to do. That's something we really need to
John Sands: stop, I feel, and is unfortunately becoming more
John Sands: prevalent at the moment. In my head I'm thinking DEI must
Joanne Lockwood: die. So. Dei. Yeah, it's almost like the,
Joanne Lockwood: that's the kind of the pushback at the moment that diversity
Joanne Lockwood: is seen as a negative now. Or the initiatives not, not the, not the
Joanne Lockwood: out end result with the initiatives have got such a bad
Joanne Lockwood: name. Yeah. Maybe poorly implemented without
Joanne Lockwood: consideration of return on investment. People from a majority
Joanne Lockwood: are feeling excluded from an
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion exercise. You know, how can you, how can you create an inclusive,
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive culture by excluding people? And I think, yeah, people are feeling
Joanne Lockwood: excluded because they're not black, they're not. They're not gay, they're not a woman, and
Joanne Lockwood: we're marginalizing people. And that's. And that's something I
John Sands: have experienced myself being a
John Sands: white male. I have felt sort of not
John Sands: part of the gang, if you like. And that could be a perception
John Sands: by me. But yeah, I've definitely. I have felt that
John Sands: really, you know, being what I am. And I, I grew up at
John Sands: a time where it's looked
John Sands: back as being, you know, a black time, not
John Sands: black time, a dark time where I was doing. I'm trying to
John Sands: put together actually a
John Sands: presentation around and I called it Poor Little White Boy
John Sands: because I grew up in a time where we had.
John Sands: Even now it sort of shuddered to think about it. When you think
John Sands: of, you know, shows like the Black and White Minstrels
John Sands: buying a jar of marmalade with a
John Sands: cartoon character. I'm not even going to say the name on the side of it,
John Sands: which you had to collect to get a badge. Where people, you know,
John Sands: like Alan Turing being gay was illegal
John Sands: and some of the tv and I grew up with a father who was a
John Sands: misogynist. He's passed now. Misogynist, a racist.
John Sands: And people look back on that time, and rightly so, they
John Sands: say, you know, that it was a bad and unenlightened time
John Sands: then and I grew up within that
John Sands: environment. And they say that people can be
John Sands: formed by what they grew up with. And absolutely not for me, if
John Sands: anything, it made me shun those ideas. It made
John Sands: me into who I am and not in a bad way. And
John Sands: I'M not saying that everyone who grew up in that time, you still get, people
John Sands: say, well, you know, I grew up in those times and it was all right
John Sands: then, wasn't it? You know, we were, we were okay. But, and,
John Sands: and, and that phrase of, you know, all the good old days,
John Sands: the days of, you know, where I felt comfortable, the days of where
John Sands: everything was okay, wasn't it? And those people are there and you see them
John Sands: every day. And my father was, was one of those. But it certainly doesn't
John Sands: shape me. And I'm of the, the
John Sands: strong feeling. You just get bad people.
John Sands: You just get people that are bad no matter what, what, where they come
John Sands: from, whether they're, you know, lgbtqia, whether they're black, whether they're white, whether
John Sands: they're Christian, whether they're Catholic, whatever, you just get bad people.
John Sands: And, and I hate to be painted
John Sands: with that brush to people to think. And this is, I think is one of
John Sands: the worst things that you can do in any. We talk about
John Sands: diversity, we talk about racism, and racism is
John Sands: painting everyone from that, in my view, anyway, painting everyone
John Sands: within that particular group of people
John Sands: as one thing, as by saying, well, all Muslims
John Sands: are this, all Christians are this. You know, everyone within the
John Sands: LGBTQIA plus is this. And that's where racism comes on.
John Sands: You just, you just get bad people. No matter what you're doing in life, you
John Sands: just get bad people. I think. Yeah. But inherently bad
Joanne Lockwood: people don't think they're bad. No, of course not. So we all, we
Joanne Lockwood: all actually believe we're good people. Every single person believes they're a
Joanne Lockwood: good person. Yeah. And within your echo chamber, within your circle
Joanne Lockwood: of friends, within your tight knit community, within your, whatever you
Joanne Lockwood: want to call it, we all believe because we're being reinforced.
Joanne Lockwood: We're product of our upbringing, product of our environment. If everyone
Joanne Lockwood: says, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. Confirmation bias. Yeah, you're
Joanne Lockwood: kicking. Whistling affinity bias. All this stuff kicks in
Joanne Lockwood: and then you believe that you're, you're us and
Joanne Lockwood: everybody else is them. And that's, that's the problem sometimes is we get so
Joanne Lockwood: locked up into our own belief of us and everyone thinks, like
Joanne Lockwood: me. Yeah. We look at Brexit, we look at the
Joanne Lockwood: political elections that go on, we look at what's going on, going on in America.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't believe that anybody would vote not like me,
Joanne Lockwood: given the choices, but clearly over half the
Joanne Lockwood: population believe something different and they're not daft. There must
Joanne Lockwood: be a reason, but I can't fathom it. Because I live in a different
Joanne Lockwood: reality and I don't understand why they're, why they're polarized in a
Joanne Lockwood: different way. Yeah. With the amount of conversations. My mum, I
John Sands: love so much and has been such a big part of my life, not
John Sands: having a father figure in my life. My mum
John Sands: has been there for me and my comfort blanket is my
John Sands: mum through my childhood and even today. But she voted Brexit
John Sands: and the conversations
John Sands: we've had around that. And you think, wow,
John Sands: yeah. And this is my, obviously my opinion around the whole Brexit thing. I think
John Sands: it was a terrible thing that happened, but my mum did that. Someone who is
John Sands: such a large part of my life. So, yeah, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure my mom voted for Brexit as well. She's an avid Daily
Joanne Lockwood: Mail reader. She's a GP news watcher and very blue.
Joanne Lockwood: And she often speaks highly of some of the people that I
Joanne Lockwood: would question their opinions on. I got my mum off the
John Sands: Daily Mail. I got her moved from the Daily Mail to the, to the Daily
John Sands: Express. So I'm hoping it's a little bit, little bit better than that. Yeah. Yeah.
John Sands: And it's like you, you very, like you said there,
John Sands: Jo, around, they believe
John Sands: that what they're saying is correct and within their, within
John Sands: their world. And this is exacerbated, I think,
John Sands: with. Because the echo chamber nowadays has got huge, isn't
John Sands: it? When we look at Twitter and we look at Facebook and we look
John Sands: at all the channels that are available to us,
John Sands: that echo chamber is hundreds of thousands of people. And
John Sands: then you're going to think, well, okay, if they say it, then it must be
John Sands: true. And everyone's a hater. And that's where the polarization has come in, I
John Sands: think. And that certainly was there for Brexit. And also when
John Sands: I speak to my American friends around the elections recently
John Sands: with the presidential elections is it's been such a
John Sands: polarization. Whereas before, and
John Sands: I look back to both with the political arena within
John Sands: the UK and also within the us, you could
John Sands: be. You could support a party, but you
John Sands: could still have friends who supported the other party. But you're
John Sands: finding now, especially in the US
John Sands: and with Brexit here, it actually will tear those apart.
John Sands: It will break those friendship bonds or family bonds. Even parts of the
John Sands: same family no longer speak to each other because of the way
John Sands: that they're voting. So it's got. That polarization
John Sands: is incredible. Really is. Yeah. One of the golden rules that I was
Joanne Lockwood: always taught when we were growing up was you don't talk about religion. Politics
Joanne Lockwood: or money kind of thing. And those aren't polite conversations for the dinner
Joanne Lockwood: table or the workplace. But we have to create
Joanne Lockwood: spaces where our beliefs aren't
Joanne Lockwood: submerged. Because when you talk about psychological safety, you think about bringing your whole
Joanne Lockwood: self to work. All these buzz phrases that we use today, if you're having to
Joanne Lockwood: suppress your views and beliefs, it's not
Joanne Lockwood: good for you as a person if you're working in an environment where you can't
Joanne Lockwood: be who you are. So how do we square this
Joanne Lockwood: circle of paradox where the intolerance of intolerance, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, it's kind of. We got to be careful here. We can't all speak our
Joanne Lockwood: mind. No, it's funny, isn't it? Because we were talking
John Sands: about the, you know, at the
John Sands: conference we had in London where I got to meet you,
John Sands: we were talking about a governance around
John Sands: resource groups. A governance around. Because you can't, you
John Sands: can't say, right, anyone can create a resource group
John Sands: because of what that brings on.
John Sands: So yes, we can say we're
John Sands: inclusive for everyone. It's like when they started saying, well, you know, white lives
John Sands: matter too, all that side of things.
John Sands: You have to be careful, really, around that
John Sands: side. And if there's right wing organization and they
John Sands: want to create an employee, a resource group as well, how do you do that?
John Sands: It's a difficult one because inclusivity should mean
John Sands: inclusivity. Freedom of speech should mean freedom of speech.
John Sands: But my thoughts around that are, if anything
John Sands: that you're doing, if anything that you want to say, right, we
John Sands: want to get a gang together. If that harms
John Sands: other people, if that is
John Sands: directly aimed with anger
John Sands: to other people, then that's where we draw the line, I feel. Yeah,
John Sands: I mean, that for me is really where we say, well, okay, we do have
John Sands: the right, but you have no right to personally enforce your
John Sands: views upon other people and second of all, create
John Sands: direct harm within other people. And I think me personally,
John Sands: that's where I would say, you know, we should draw the line. We look at
Joanne Lockwood: some major political figures in our history, we know
Joanne Lockwood: we look. Well, I say art history, world history. Nelson
Joanne Lockwood: Mandela, freedom fighter, terrorist,
Joanne Lockwood: world leader. Lech Vowensa, freedom
Joanne Lockwood: fighter, terrorist, world leader.
Joanne Lockwood: And you look at Sinn Fein and some of the leaders, Jerry Adams, people like
Joanne Lockwood: that, they went from being terrorist, freedom fighter to political
Joanne Lockwood: leaders in their country. And we now see Sinn taking a
Joanne Lockwood: political stance even within the north of Ireland. So
Joanne Lockwood: it depends on who's writing the history, doesn't it? Well, absolutely it does.
John Sands: Yeah. There was the, the, the issue
John Sands: in Bristol with the statue of the.
John Sands: And again, apologies, I forget the name of the person, but I very
John Sands: vividly can remember them pushing the statue into.
John Sands: Into the river of Bristol. You know, person who.
John Sands: Who put a lot of money into schools, put a lot of money
John Sands: into the local community, built buildings. Bu.
John Sands: Slave trader. So that, you know, where. Where does that sit? What do you do
John Sands: with that? I mean, I put. I personally think if the context is there and
John Sands: people understand that and people are educated around
John Sands: that and it's not hidden from, then that is part of history. It's
John Sands: the same with. With Nelson Mandela. I mean, again, I'm.
John Sands: I apologize for not being. To know as. As much as I should do about
John Sands: things like that. But we. We put content. It happened.
John Sands: Yeah. These people went through a process. Some would call it terrorism, some would
John Sands: call it fighting the fight. It depends where you sit
John Sands: on that, doesn't it? And I don't feel either you
John Sands: or me can sit there and comprehensively say, you know,
John Sands: that's wrong, because, you know, I'm not sure
John Sands: you can do that. Yeah. And I mean, bringing it back to the workplace and
Joanne Lockwood: we've got bit onto world policy. We have, yeah. Very deep.
Joanne Lockwood: You end up with this inherent conflict between the rights of each
Joanne Lockwood: other. You know, in. I've seen in the civil service,
Joanne Lockwood: they've set up a staff
Joanne Lockwood: network that champions the supremacy of sex over
Joanne Lockwood: gender to almost like oppose the LGBTQ plus
Joanne Lockwood: network, to give people who have those beliefs
Joanne Lockwood: a place where they feel belonging. So you have to
Joanne Lockwood: allow people to have these thoughts and beliefs and what we call a projective
Joanne Lockwood: belief. But somehow the organization has to wrestle with this
Joanne Lockwood: to stop it becoming toxic or weaponized. And I, And
John Sands: I truly feel that there is a place for
John Sands: both there. But that should be encouraging conversation
John Sands: that should be saying, well, okay, you know, I disagree with
John Sands: this. I feel it should be this. But to. Because
John Sands: there's been a lot of, you know, militant actions around these things
John Sands: where people. It's almost. It is almost like a battle. I'm
John Sands: right. This is wrong. You know, you can't do that. You can't do this
John Sands: conversation. We are. We should be talking about it.
John Sands: And even if we can't say, oh, okay, yeah, I agree now.
John Sands: Which doesn't always happen to
John Sands: respect people and to understand, if not to fully
John Sands: agree, but to understand and to realize that
John Sands: we are all human beings, we have a right to do that and to feel
John Sands: that way, that's fine. I don't agree. That's fine. We can
John Sands: still live together with that. We don't have to be butting up against each other
John Sands: the whole time. We don't have to be, you know, agreement all the time.
John Sands: Maybe I'm being a little simplistic. I don't know, Maybe. Maybe I am.
John Sands: But my feeling is we can live together even
John Sands: if we don't agree all the time. Yeah. I was
Joanne Lockwood: watching a debate on Facebook the other day.
Joanne Lockwood: It was about, I think there was some. I think it happened at horse race
Joanne Lockwood: and some horses died at the weekend. I'm not sure exactly the
Joanne Lockwood: story. And someone put a post about horse racing should
Joanne Lockwood: be banned and someone chipped in and go, well, hang on a minute. It employs
Joanne Lockwood: loads of people, the animals. And there was this polarized view
Joanne Lockwood: around any animal that is
Joanne Lockwood: enslaved by a human being is bad. Any animal
Joanne Lockwood: you're putting to work for you, riding a horse is bad. Riding an elephant is
Joanne Lockwood: bad. It's like there's someone trying to come up with another opinion. And
Joanne Lockwood: eventually the weight of view on this post was
Joanne Lockwood: heavily animal rights focused. And so all the people that were trying to chip in
Joanne Lockwood: with a balance effectively put their hands in there and said, okay, I
Joanne Lockwood: give up. I shouldn't have joined this conversation. I'm out. And
Joanne Lockwood: then people didn't want to let them out the room. They kind of say, now
Joanne Lockwood: hang on a minute, I haven't finished beating you up yet. I want to keep,
Joanne Lockwood: I want to keep going. You don't get my point. I want to keep telling
Joanne Lockwood: you, okay, that's okay, we disagree. I'll beat you up enough until
John Sands: you eventually come round to what I think is the right way of doing stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: So people, people aren't happy with that retreat and acceptance. Okay,
Joanne Lockwood: okay. We have a fundamental difference here. Some people want to keep going
Joanne Lockwood: and that. And that's. They won't get, they won't be happy unless they've had their
Joanne Lockwood: satisfaction of agreement. I think we all go to for
John Sands: headlines because headlines make people listen or they make people watch. It's like
John Sands: my mum will ring me up and say, oh, you know, the country is
John Sands: swamped with immigration. You know,
John Sands: we need to sort that out and say, well, you're reading a headline. They
John Sands: sell newspapers. They're not going to say, oh, things are actually
John Sands: a bit okay at the moment, aren't they? We don't really need to worry. Let's
John Sands: say that's fine. That's not what is going to sell a newspaper. The headline is
John Sands: going to sell the newspaper. And I do feel that we then have adopted
John Sands: that. And especially when we can sit behind their Keyboard and be on a
John Sands: Facebook chat thing or on Twitter or something.
John Sands: We shout stuff because it gets a reaction.
John Sands: It gets people to shout back. And
John Sands: we all want to get that reaction. We all want people to go,
John Sands: well, because that's what we feed on
John Sands: is people. No one wants to sit there and have a nice conversation. Yeah, it's
John Sands: all a bit okay, actually, I agree with you with that. That's all
John Sands: brilliant. We want headlines. Whether that's in
John Sands: a newspaper, on a message page or on
John Sands: anywhere, we want headlines, we want reactions. And
John Sands: we are able to do that with the media that we work with.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think something in the media the other day it was all
Joanne Lockwood: about working from home, working in the office. The headline was something
Joanne Lockwood: like the ONS has discovered. The ONS trusted
Joanne Lockwood: body would chuck them in there. These trusted statistics.
Joanne Lockwood: The people who work from home rest
Joanne Lockwood: 20 minutes a day more than those who work in the office and do 15
Joanne Lockwood: minutes more exercise. And then they then quoted Jacob Rees Mogg
Joanne Lockwood: saying, see, these lazy people working from home are sleeping
Joanne Lockwood: during the day. Yeah, well, hang on a minute. No, at no point did it
Joanne Lockwood: say sleeping during the day. It just. They had 20 minutes a day more rest,
Joanne Lockwood: but did 15 days more exercise. And suddenly we extrapolated that to
Joanne Lockwood: being anybody's working for a reason. More lazy, therefore. Yeah,
John Sands: not doing anything. Yeah. There's no statistic
Joanne Lockwood: on productivity in there. So they cherry picked out the
Joanne Lockwood: resting and the exercise. So people are going on their treadmill, having a
Joanne Lockwood: sleep and doing less work. QED statistic. Ons.
John Sands: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's incredible. And this has been, I
John Sands: think, again, going back to the whole of the Internet. You know, I've had an,
John Sands: an incredible life. Actually. When I look at when I started
John Sands: my career, there was no Internet. There was, you
John Sands: know, I went to school, I didn't have. I didn't have Internet. And
John Sands: I've gone through this, this gradual iteration of more
John Sands: and more and more and more of access, which is
John Sands: a wonderful thing in some ways, but a terrible thing in others. It's,
John Sands: it's, it's a beast of, you know, of two sides really,
John Sands: because we've got the amazing technology that allows us to
John Sands: communicate and to share information. We've got.
John Sands: The flip side of it is, like you were saying there, Jo, around
John Sands: us being able to. We're not just now creating a newspaper
John Sands: article, we're taking that newspaper article and we're putting it out
John Sands: to everyone that can then grab that.
John Sands: It's been an incredible journey to where we are. And we just
John Sands: need to understand that, we just need to realize that what's, you know,
John Sands: I try to educate my mum and say, well, you know, around the headlines, around
John Sands: all the information. She doesn't have a computer actually, so slightly different for
John Sands: her. But yeah, it's.
John Sands: It's using a brain. I
John Sands: have an amateur interest in, into neuroscience
John Sands: and using this amazing brain that we
John Sands: have and filtering it through two things. I hate,
John Sands: I hate now reminding this and I hate hypocrisy. And those two
John Sands: things, hand, hand in hand with the
John Sands: incredible wealth of information that we have out there are dangerous
John Sands: things. Dangerous things. And we got now, we've now
John Sands: got people in power that, from my perspective anyway, have
John Sands: both of those things. I've got a friend I follow on Facebook.
Joanne Lockwood: Every so often he'll pop up with a very sort of predictable remark.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, and today I'm going to be an expert on nuclear
Joanne Lockwood: missiles. Last week is. Today I'm an
Joanne Lockwood: expert on US politics and today I'm going to be an expert on this. It's
Joanne Lockwood: so like. It's what happens every. Every day,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever's in the news, people become armchair experts. It's like
Joanne Lockwood: the. It's like when the World Cup's on, everyone is home
Joanne Lockwood: England manager, everyone knows which team they should have played and they're doing the
Joanne Lockwood: critique. And we're becoming Facebook experts on everything, aren't we?
John Sands: It is that what you just said there reminds me, if you've ever
John Sands: watched the Fast show, there was a character that came up this
John Sands: week. I am mostly being eaten. Terabysolata.
John Sands: It's. It's. That is that that's
John Sands: reminded me of that and how we. Yeah, we automatically become
John Sands: wheelchair experts on information and sometimes that can
John Sands: be. Can be harmless and a bit of fun on other
John Sands: times not. So it's the way that
John Sands: that person then can be an armchair expert on hate can
John Sands: spread information easily. And there are a lot of people out there,
John Sands: especially when they. I mean, we talk about social media, pundits and social
John Sands: media, you know, experts and these huge followings of
John Sands: millions of people, sometimes they might have been a pop star at some time,
John Sands: they might have been a, you know, the B list. Celebrities that we talk
John Sands: about can get huge, huge followings and can spread that.
John Sands: That expert perceived expertness by them. Them
John Sands: becomes a fodder for the huge audience of people
John Sands: that they have following them. And I think
John Sands: it can be. It can be a dangerous thing because again, because of
John Sands: the spread or the audience, these people can reach out to
John Sands: sometimes and people will just believe it. Some people will Just
John Sands: you know, go, go down that route and take everything as
John Sands: verbatim that they, that they hear and that, that's where the ed. That's where the
John Sands: education comes in. Yeah. So Chris Hoy is suddenly an
Joanne Lockwood: expert on cancer, on everyone's cancer and really.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, yeah, about. Well, no, but that's how the media are now. He's now the
Joanne Lockwood: go to spokesperson so he's adding his brand and
Joanne Lockwood: credibility to raise awareness.
Joanne Lockwood: But he is an expert on himself. He didn't realize. Yes, yes,
John Sands: absolutely. Expert on cycling. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Expert on being in the Olympics, an expert on winning gold medals. But
Joanne Lockwood: he's now participating in the experience
Joanne Lockwood: of going through a life changing condition which is obviously
Joanne Lockwood: terminal and very sad. Very sad for that. So he's
Joanne Lockwood: telling his story in Raw to the public and
Joanne Lockwood: you gotta be careful that he doesn't necessarily give advice
Joanne Lockwood: or expert advice, just his personal experience. Yeah,
John Sands: yeah, that you're, you're right on that. And again
John Sands: that goes back to my comment earlier about people taking it verbatim
John Sands: as Chris Hoy is now the, you know, a professor on cancer. It's
John Sands: a very sad that he went through and. Yeah, and
John Sands: him and his family having to go through that
John Sands: is, I mean, and cancer is. Yeah, that's. I've had
John Sands: not, not myself experience of it but friends that have had it and passed
John Sands: away. It's. Yeah, it's a terrible, terrible thing. You
Joanne Lockwood: mentioned at the beginning of the show and you mentioned, you talk about a bit
Joanne Lockwood: in the green room. You also mentioned it when we met a few weeks ago
Joanne Lockwood: around your expertise in Covid. Yes, I would not
John Sands: say expertise in any way whatsoever.
John Sands: Experience. Experience. Yeah.
John Sands: Of COVID If you call at this time 4 years ago I was in
John Sands: a, in a, in a coma after
John Sands: catching COVID back November
John Sands: time, beginning of November. So yeah, I got the usual cough and,
John Sands: and then, then, then got hold of the one one one
John Sands: and they then sent an ambulance and then I ended up in,
John Sands: in hospital with COVID and I did, I did a diary the whole
John Sands: time on what I was. I'm so glad I did because I can go
John Sands: back and go through my experience with that and right
John Sands: from you know, turning up and thinking, oh, they'll pump me through full of
John Sands: antibiotics or some magic drug that will, will, will make it go
John Sands: away. And there was no, no vaccine, excuse me,
John Sands: no vaccine at the time. So I went straight in
John Sands: and, and gradually was up and down. It was really again
John Sands: from my diary, it was, it was a roller coaster because Covid, the little
John Sands: bastard actually goes to Your brain stem and makes
John Sands: you feel that you're okay so it can do its
John Sands: work. So I was going up and down and I was on. I
John Sands: was on. I was on a thing called a CPAP where they, they force air
John Sands: into your. Into your lungs. It's like, it's the way they describe. Way I
John Sands: would describe it. It's like when you're going along in a car and you put
John Sands: your head out the window. Uh, and. Yeah,
John Sands: absolutely. And that forcing of air into. Into your lungs and the
John Sands: gradual decline. They even sent my.
John Sands: My wife in at one point. And that doesn't happen unless it's really, really
John Sands: bad. And that. So I got to spend some
John Sands: time with her and. Which was a, you know, two things. It was. It was
John Sands: beautiful to see her because I was in a. Basically in an
John Sands: airlock. So I was in a room where you had to.
John Sands: You had to go through. Into an airlock, you know, shut the door, open the
John Sands: other door and come in and see me. Where people, you know, to come in
John Sands: to see me. It was. Had to put in all their, you know, the
John Sands: gloves and the apron and the mask and all that and
John Sands: then come in, see me go out, take it all off again. And if I
John Sands: needed to see them again, they'd have to come in again. Incredibly isolating and very
John Sands: frightening. I was the most frightened I've ever been in my life. And I
John Sands: wrote in my diary, I don't think I'm going to finish this diary because my
John Sands: breathing was getting so bad. And when I. This is another bag of worms. When
John Sands: I, When I hear about people who are anti. Anti vaccine. I would like to
John Sands: bottle how I felt when
John Sands: about 75% of my lung capacity was gone. And
John Sands: I wouldn't want to give them. I'd give them the virus. I would never want
John Sands: to do that to anyone. But I'd want them just to experience how I
John Sands: felt just for. Just for 30 seconds. Just to get the.
John Sands: Where you feel like you're drowning, where you feel like the. You know,
John Sands: you think that's it. And again in my diary I said, ye, this. This is
John Sands: it. I'm. I don't. I'm. I'm going to die. And when it got at its
John Sands: worst, I wanted to die.
John Sands: I wanted it all to go away. And I, And I even. I couldn't speak.
John Sands: So I just went to the nurse. I just. Yeah, I couldn't. And she. I
John Sands: then got put into a. Into a coma and put
John Sands: on a ventilator. And then that's when the fun stuff happened. Then. Because when I
John Sands: met my God. Coma dreams, Jo, I'm not. I'm not recommending it for
John Sands: any, but I was. I was on an
John Sands: NHS cruise ship going to Abu Dhabi.
John Sands: That's what. That's what my dream was. And. And I was
John Sands: going along quite happily on the cruise ship. I had people in beds next to
John Sands: me. I was. We got to Abu Dhabi, I got off the.
John Sands: Got off the. The boat and went to a party. I was still in my
John Sands: bed, I was still dreaming in my bed and I was still strapped in and
John Sands: I had all. Everything on me, but I was in my bed being wheeled around
John Sands: Abu Dhabi and then.
John Sands: And then taken back onto the boat. And then. Then I woke up.
John Sands: Now, this is. I was in a coma for 11 days and I woke up
John Sands: and the first doctor that came to me, I said, do
John Sands: you really send people on cruise ships in the nhs? Because
John Sands: I still believed in my befuddled state that it had happened.
John Sands: And she said, I can assure you, Mr. Sands, you haven't left Portsmouth.
John Sands: So I was. I was on this. On this. I'm sure I was on this
John Sands: cruise ship. I was brought round and was. It
John Sands: was an amazing, amazing thing to go through.
John Sands: I went to. While on the cruise ship, I went to a bird show, I
John Sands: went and saw dolphins while I was on there, and there was a
John Sands: restaurant there. I. It was just. And that was
John Sands: 11 days of being asleep in a coma. And
John Sands: luckily, because at that time, if you were put on a ventilator, you
John Sands: only had a 10% chance of survival, which I didn't
John Sands: realize till much, much later that that was the case. And
John Sands: I come round and I got out and, you know, I'm
John Sands: thankful for the fact that it. That I did survive and I. And
John Sands: I, you know, I did. I did come out of that, but
John Sands: I never ever, never, ever
John Sands: lost that feeling. The feeling I had when I thought I was
John Sands: lying on the bed and I was thinking, what it going to be like to
John Sands: die? What's it going to be like to close my eyes? And I truly thought,
John Sands: I'm going to close my eyes now and I'm going to. I'm going to be
John Sands: dead. What's that going to be like? And that's why I was part of the
John Sands: founder of the disability rge, because
John Sands: of the mental scars. I'm. Now, my lungs are fine.
John Sands: I have no physical scars from that and none whatsoever.
John Sands: But the mental side of that and that feeling, because you never lose that.
John Sands: You never. I'm not sure you should either, really, because the experience
John Sands: makes you. What you are, but it is something that stays
John Sands: with you forever. You know, reliving that
John Sands: sometimes. I don't mind reliving it now, like we're talking now, I'm quite. Quite happy
John Sands: to do that. And I do it a lot. I like to talk, as you
John Sands: probably can tell, but there is a scar
John Sands: there that I've got. So Covid for me was
John Sands: incredible. I've taken all the vaccines I can find. Bring me a vaccine. I'll have
John Sands: it. Yeah, absolutely. Kidding me. Vaccine
John Sands: trial. And did that as well. Because. Because I believe this is
John Sands: going to sound like a cliche. We've all been hitting the saucepans outside our house
John Sands: during COVID But what they did for me, the wonderful, amazing
John Sands: nurses that came in and gave me from being in that
John Sands: isolation chamber that I was in, that came in with
John Sands: smiles, and I said to one of the nurses, you know, what's
John Sands: it like out there? And he said, it's terrible. He goes, you know, people are
John Sands: passing. And she. She stroked my arm and said, but not you. You're not going
John Sands: to go. And. And I thought, wow.
John Sands: Yeah, it was. It was my
John Sands: thanks go out certainly to. To all those. Those people, my consultant,
John Sands: my nurses, whoever that did that was. That was amazing. Guess it's good you were
Joanne Lockwood: going to Abu Dhabi, not on the Titanic. To New York, if
Joanne Lockwood: otherwise. Yes, yes. No, the ship didn't sink. The ship actually
John Sands: docked in Southampton and let me off in an ambulance and. And brought me back
John Sands: to Portsmouth. The qa. Did you feel. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm guessing. Please enlighten me. Did you feel time passing
Joanne Lockwood: or was it random images? Or did you feel like you were in an Agatha
Joanne Lockwood: Christie movie or something? No, time passed. So, you
John Sands: know, I went to the bird show, I got wheeled out to the bird show.
John Sands: I went to the. I think it was dolphins, some weird
John Sands: animal swimming in a tank. Yeah. So time, it wasn't purely
John Sands: linear, I don't think, because there were times, actually I had part of that was
John Sands: not Abu Dhabi. It was going out and meeting up with my family in a
John Sands: cinema somewhere. So that happened as well. So. But. But in my
John Sands: mind, I've kind of logically placed it together. Maybe it was.
John Sands: Maybe during the dream it was all over the place, I don't know. But the
John Sands: brain, as I said, is a. Is a marvelous organ.
John Sands: And. And I think it probably helped to put it into some. To make sense
John Sands: of it, to shuffle the cards that were dealt me during the coma and put
John Sands: it into a logical place. I'm sure that may have happened. But my recollection
John Sands: now I did a video of it. I put it on, on YouTube.
John Sands: So I. Whereas I, because I did some videos while I was actually in hospital
John Sands: with the mask on and with that. And I put that together in,
John Sands: into a video that I put onto, onto YouTube. So I think, I
John Sands: think I almost certainly would. To make. Because your brain does that to make sense.
John Sands: If it doesn't quite fit, it will, it will say, oh, okay, well this could
John Sands: be there, that should be there, this should be there and does that. So it's
John Sands: not like I woke up from my coma at the beginning
John Sands: and then went into it at the end. It give it some kind
John Sands: of linear side to it. Does it feel at the time or
Joanne Lockwood: your memory of that feel? Did it help your state of mind? I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, were you scared in this, in this home, A dream? Were
Joanne Lockwood: you having a time of your life? Were you worried about things in this
Joanne Lockwood: dream? I had some sad moments in there. I mean, one of the people that
John Sands: I was with on board the ship
John Sands: died while I was there. I had some, I had some
John Sands: great. I had some frustrating times when I want to go and see the bird
John Sands: show, but they wouldn't let me in. I had some times where
John Sands: I was on board ship and I asked
John Sands: one of the nurses to go and take some pictures of Abu Dhabi because I'd
John Sands: never been to Abu Dhabi before. And she got chucked off the ship
John Sands: because she shouldn't have been taking pictures. So I was worried that, oh my God,
John Sands: how's she going to get home? Well, I'm all going to have to pay for
John Sands: that. I'm going to have. I want her to get home. So I had, I
John Sands: had all of those feelings as well while I
John Sands: was in there. So it was a complete mixture of emotions. The cruise ship
John Sands: side is actually explained because I spoke to one of the nurses afterwards. She said,
John Sands: well, the reason this happens a lot is because you're on a bed that is
John Sands: moving because they want to stop you getting fresher sores. So the bed is moving.
John Sands: Yeah. So being on a cruise ship or being on a boat is
John Sands: quite normal. I was in the Navy as well, so there's probably a part of
John Sands: that that came in. I thought there were children underneath my bed. At one
John Sands: point I was lying in my bed and there were children bashing underneath my bed.
John Sands: And that's because they put these compression, blow up compression
John Sands: tubes on your legs to stop you from getting DVT and that was the
John Sands: bashing. So yeah, so there's a whole
John Sands: mix of emotions in there. Not. Not one. The whole time.
John Sands: I don't remember being frightened at any point. I
John Sands: remember being worried that I wasn't going to get back on the ship on time
John Sands: because they'd taken me away and done whatever. But no, I don't. I was never
John Sands: frightened. The frightening time was when I was awake. That was frightening.
Joanne Lockwood: As you're talking now, I'm thinking. I'm thinking back to the Matrix film, the first.
John Sands: Oh, yes. And the artificial world that's created for
Joanne Lockwood: people. You realize the AI realized that it couldn't be
Joanne Lockwood: perfect. It had to have challenge and risk and
Joanne Lockwood: drama because a utopian kind of
Joanne Lockwood: world isn't real. The human brain needs something
Joanne Lockwood: more. So maybe you actually created drama out of
Joanne Lockwood: your thought so your mind has something to
Joanne Lockwood: tackle and challenge it. I think you're right, because that's
John Sands: our life again. Our brain is a very.
John Sands: We use the word plasticity adapts and molds itself to
John Sands: your experience and your life. And we create these neural
John Sands: pathways with synaptic pathways which are based
John Sands: upon our experiences in life. And we build those. Some good,
John Sands: some bad. And those neural pathways are what create your
John Sands: dreams. Because, I mean, the amount of dreams I have when I'm worried I'm not
John Sands: going to get to the airport, or I'm worried that I'm going
John Sands: to miss something, or I can't get my suitcase, and that's
John Sands: me. My God, when I go to the airport, I have to be there
John Sands: three hours before, no matter where I'm going, because I worry about.
John Sands: About not being there on time. I never understand people who say, oh, I get
John Sands: there 10 minutes before. You know, I never, never worry about that. That would, that
John Sands: would drive me mad. I just couldn't do it. So. So
John Sands: yeah, yeah, your, your, your brain doesn't change when you go to sleep.
John Sands: Yeah. Some of the dreams I have as well that we won't talk about
John Sands: now, you know, are not part of my everyday, everyday life. But, but,
John Sands: yeah, but most of it, the bones and the, the, the
John Sands: pathways are there no matter if you're dreaming or if you're conscious. They said that
Joanne Lockwood: the. You talked to the nurses when, when you woke up again and they
Joanne Lockwood: kind of explained away the boat and the compression, all this kind of stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: Have you spoken to any other
Joanne Lockwood: coma survivors about their experience? Or is this
Joanne Lockwood: you just your own. You're your own expert, if you like. No other. No,
John Sands: no, I haven't. No, I haven't. And not long after I came out,
John Sands: I thought, would that be a good idea? I Got a bit
John Sands: frightened about it, I think, when I thought, oh, yeah, okay, maybe
John Sands: it's a cause. There isn't anything out there. There isn't anything, you know, of
John Sands: people. Well, not that I know of anyway. So I did think about it, but
John Sands: then I backed up because I
John Sands: wasn't sure how I could handle that with other people. You know,
John Sands: I'm talking about it quite happily now and I'll talk about it with my wife
John Sands: and with my close friends and. And put a YouTube video out
John Sands: there, but I'm not sure how. Well, at that time, certainly I
John Sands: wasn't sure how I would deal with that. And I did get a
John Sands: bit frightened, so I backed off from it. I've gone through
John Sands: counseling and I've spoken to a therapist around there,
John Sands: but putting a support group together, I've not done that
John Sands: again, as I said, I think I got a bit of cold feet on that.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got two experiences in my life that gives me some relatability to what
Joanne Lockwood: you went through. I never went through a coma, I don't believe. So when I
Joanne Lockwood: was about 12, 13, I went on a school
Joanne Lockwood: excursion to France to Entre tat to see the Tapestry, the Bay of
Joanne Lockwood: Tapestry. Nice. And on the way back,
Joanne Lockwood: I'd obviously developed some sort of flu, cold, whatever it
Joanne Lockwood: was. And on the boat, my temperature, I had this
Joanne Lockwood: extreme high temperature. I had to stand on the deck of the boat to try
Joanne Lockwood: and cool myself down. I was in the bar area, wherever it was, sitting
Joanne Lockwood: area, and my temperature rose and rose and rose. And eventually, obviously the teachers
Joanne Lockwood: and people got worried about me and they ended up calling me an ambulance
Joanne Lockwood: onto the boat. So I got taken off the. Really
Joanne Lockwood: off the ferry in an ambulance with the blues and twos on. Took me
Joanne Lockwood: straight to Southampton General and put me in an isolation ward. They thought I
Joanne Lockwood: had meningitis at the time, but it turned out to be some sort of bacterial
Joanne Lockwood: viral infection. When I had this extreme high temperature, my
Joanne Lockwood: muscles all locked up, I couldn't move. I was literally rigid. I
Joanne Lockwood: think my temperature was 106 or something like that on that. On that real cusp
Joanne Lockwood: of being. And you know, when I
Joanne Lockwood: went out to the gear, to the loo at one point I went to the
Joanne Lockwood: door and there's this big red sign saying isolation will do, not enter. It's like,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, this is quite serious, isn't it? And I look back
Joanne Lockwood: on. My parents were obviously worried at the time. So, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I had that sort of. And I remember the coach driver, because I sit on
Joanne Lockwood: the coach waiting for the ambulance, he said, don't worry, you're not going to die.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I was 13 years old, I was invincible. I didn't think I was going
Joanne Lockwood: to die anyway. And suddenly someone said they put forward.
Joanne Lockwood: Whoa, okay. Suddenly that comes home. And the next time
Joanne Lockwood: it happened was when I was
Joanne Lockwood: 2013. So 10 years ago, give or take, I got double
Joanne Lockwood: pneumonia. And it was on Christmas Eve. I was feeling rough for a few
Joanne Lockwood: days, Christmas Eve, I sat in the chair, all the family around.
Joanne Lockwood: My throat was raw, I couldn't swallow, couldn't drink anything, couldn't
Joanne Lockwood: breathe. I went to bed that night, Christmas Eve,
Joanne Lockwood: and every time I laid back, I felt like I was drowning. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: my throat was so sore I couldn't cough. Of course
Joanne Lockwood: I needed to cough, but I couldn't cough. I needed to cough, but I couldn't
Joanne Lockwood: cough. And eventually we called a paramedic at about 4 o'clock in the morning, Christmas
Joanne Lockwood: Day. Anyway, you need to go to ae. Quick, get there
Joanne Lockwood: now. So I. My wife dropped me down there and I saw
Joanne Lockwood: this consultant and he thought I was having an asthma attack,
Joanne Lockwood: so he gave me this nebulizer to puff on and of
Joanne Lockwood: course that triggered me even worse and his face went white as a
Joanne Lockwood: sheet. He thought he killed me, basically. I was choking and choking with his
Joanne Lockwood: nebulizer. He thought it could. Magic, that'll fix you.
Joanne Lockwood: And suddenly I'm in a ward, Christmas Day,
Joanne Lockwood: tubes up my nose, breathing oxygen. And I was
Joanne Lockwood: feeling. I could, I couldn't breathe. I really felt I couldn't breathe. So
Joanne Lockwood: feeling a drowning. Yeah, that not being able to
John Sands: get enough, enough air into your lungs
John Sands: is because, you know, that's, that's your life
John Sands: for that. And it's. I even had it during my coma dream I had.
John Sands: I was trying to drink a smoothie through my, my breathing tube for whatever,
John Sands: whatever reason, because they tried to extubate
John Sands: me but it didn't work, so they had to put the tube back down
John Sands: again. And I'm probably thinking that was why I
John Sands: had that feeling of drinking a smoothie through my air tube, which
John Sands: is weird. So. Yeah. So that feeling there, you
John Sands: know that feeling you had when you're lying in
John Sands: a hospital bed of all times,
John Sands: Christmas Day is. Yeah. Must have been horrible for me.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Well, the thing is, when you're that ill, time
Joanne Lockwood: passes in a different way, doesn't it? Yes, yes, absolutely. Everybody else is worried
Joanne Lockwood: about, your sole concern is staying alive.
Joanne Lockwood: And one thing I've observed throughout various. I've had other
Joanne Lockwood: instances not quite as bad over the years is I've come to realize
Joanne Lockwood: that when you're really ill or not, well,
Joanne Lockwood: you don't get bored. You can stare at the ceiling before hours a day and
Joanne Lockwood: you're completely cool with it. And you can tell when you're getting better because
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly you get fidgety, bored. Yeah. And you want to start doing
Joanne Lockwood: stuff. So I can always tell when I'm on the recovery, when my mind
Joanne Lockwood: goes, right, okay, I want to read a book, I want to watch telly. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But before that, sat on my back, okay, I'm out of it. And I talked
Joanne Lockwood: to friends who have been through experiences and I said, did you find this point
Joanne Lockwood: where you started getting bored? They went, yeah, funny
Joanne Lockwood: that all of a sudden I was really fidgety and bored. I said, that's the
Joanne Lockwood: brain's way of saying, you're on your way back. They put me
John Sands: onto a. Onto a general ward after I was getting better,
John Sands: and that was when I started
John Sands: because I couldn't really get up and about. I had a catheter, I had
John Sands: oxygen, I had tubes everywhere,
John Sands: and I just wanted to get out and I wanted to get up and about
John Sands: and go home. Because when, like you said, when you're
John Sands: really ill, When I was really ill, my biggest worry, yeah,
John Sands: I didn't want to die, of course I didn't. But my biggest worry was everyone
John Sands: else. And my worry was my wife and
John Sands: my children and my brother and my mum. They were who
John Sands: I was worried about because I can't do anything about where I am now. You
John Sands: put yourself into the hands of other people. I can't do any more than
John Sands: just lie here, have them do whatever, and I can't do
John Sands: anything. But the people that are outside of that, because they couldn't come up
John Sands: and see me. That was one of the things with COVID They couldn't come up
John Sands: to the ward, but it was everyone else around. My
John Sands: wife had lost her partner to
John Sands: suicide many, many years ago, and my fault was, my
John Sands: God, she might lose me now after
John Sands: having that. But going back to what you're saying, yeah,
John Sands: I wanted to do stuff. I wanted to get out. I wanted to read, have
John Sands: my iPad out. I wanted to, you know, just. Just involve the mind.
John Sands: Whereas before, my mind was involved with everything else that was around it. You
John Sands: almost just. You're just a passenger. Yeah. To quote the Bee
Joanne Lockwood: Gees, Staying Alive stagger. I got to love the Bee
John Sands: Gees. Got to love the Bee Gees. John,
Joanne Lockwood: I really love this conversation. I mean, we spoke briefly, as we said earlier
Joanne Lockwood: a couple of weeks ago. And there's a whole load of other stuff that we've
Joanne Lockwood: got in common. Anyway, we dived into your Navy career and everything else, but.
Joanne Lockwood: And, and our joint shared passion for the city
Joanne Lockwood: of Portsmouth, I guess, as well. Absolutely. Well, there's a time for another
John Sands: podcast sometime, Jo. We could. There's many, many things we could talk
John Sands: about. Yeah, I'd love to. So, John, you mentioned the
Joanne Lockwood: YouTube video. How do people get a hold of you? You're obviously on LinkedIn. Tell
Joanne Lockwood: people about YouTube video and find out more about it. Just search for
John Sands: John Sands on YouTube and you'll also find a very
John Sands: famous Australian, a greeting card manufacturer as well, called John
John Sands: Sands. So that's not me. If it was then, yeah,
John Sands: I'd have a bit more money than now. But LinkedIn, really, I see my life
John Sands: at the moment. I love doing what I. The work I do with ERGs,
John Sands: I work with the ERG Leadership alliance and
John Sands: train, you know, part of. Part of what they
John Sands: do and look out for that. Like I say, go to
John Sands: LinkedIn. If you want to message me, they'll connect then, then please do. I'd
John Sands: be more than happy. I'm a very social person. I'm not as
John Sands: business focused as I was before. I've kind of
John Sands: gone. I'm going through life doing what I want to do now, helping when I
John Sands: can help, using that empathy, which I do see is one of my
John Sands: superpowers. Don't ask me to turn lead into gold. I'm not
John Sands: quite there yet. I'll keep trying, but do just reach out
John Sands: and chat and I'm sure they could
John Sands: contact yourself, Jo, you've got all my details there as
John Sands: well. I'm more than happy. Is it okay to give out my email address if.
John Sands: Is that all right? Yeah. So
John Sands: johnsands@hotmail.com do reach
John Sands: out to me. I'd be great to do that. Go to LinkedIn, connect with
John Sands: me on LinkedIn. I'd be more than happy to
John Sands: chat about that and anything ERG related.
John Sands: Yeah. And if you've got your own Covid story, Then
Joanne Lockwood: check your LinkedIn message and see how it goes. Yeah, well, yeah,
John Sands: absolutely. It'd be great to hear from other people. I said I got cold feet
John Sands: before, but I'm a big lover of organic work as well, where things
John Sands: just happened and like meeting with you, Jo, you know, last,
John Sands: when we had the ELA meeting in
John Sands: London, you know, these things, these things happen for a reason, I think. I'm not,
John Sands: I'm not. I don't believe truly in fate, but they do happen and when they
John Sands: do, you grab that opportunity and start something hopefully which
John Sands: will be good. John, it's been an amazing conversation. I
Joanne Lockwood: really enjoyed the chat today. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for
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