WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.680 --> 00:00:11.505 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for 2 00:00:11.545 --> 00:00:15.145 bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.225 --> 00:00:18.665 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.705 --> 00:00:21.825 inclusion, belonging and societal 5 00:00:21.905 --> 00:00:25.737 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a 6 00:00:25.761 --> 00:00:29.577 world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. 7 00:00:29.721 --> 00:00:33.265 You're not alone. Join me as we uncover 8 00:00:33.345 --> 00:00:36.865 the unseen, challenge the status quo and 9 00:00:36.905 --> 00:00:40.577 share stories that resonate deep within. Ready 10 00:00:40.601 --> 00:00:44.121 to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or 11 00:00:44.153 --> 00:00:47.105 winding down after a long day, let's connect, 12 00:00:47.265 --> 00:00:50.645 reflect and inspire action together. 13 00:00:51.025 --> 00:00:54.839 Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out 14 00:00:54.887 --> 00:00:55.167 to 15 00:00:55.231 --> 00:00:58.935 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 16 00:00:59.095 --> 00:01:02.875 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 17 00:01:03.375 --> 00:01:07.215 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 18 00:01:07.255 --> 00:01:10.231 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 19 00:01:10.303 --> 00:01:11.155 Bites. 20 00:01:14.655 --> 00:01:18.035 Today is episode 139 21 00:01:18.415 --> 00:01:21.703 with the title Turning Lead into 22 00:01:21.759 --> 00:01:25.351 Gold, and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome 23 00:01:25.463 --> 00:01:28.983 John Sands. John is a certified 24 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.879 ERG trainer who employs. Sorry, empowers, 25 00:01:32.967 --> 00:01:36.695 no less employee resource groups leaders, to unlock 26 00:01:36.735 --> 00:01:40.383 their full potential. Drawing on his vast experience as a founder, 27 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.859 leader and ally, he brings a fresh and impactful perspective 28 00:01:44.047 --> 00:01:47.067 to creating inclusive workplaces that celebrate 29 00:01:47.131 --> 00:01:50.923 diversity and drive meaningful change. When I 30 00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:53.455 asked John to describe his superpower, he said 31 00:01:53.795 --> 00:01:57.235 empathy, with the added alchemy of transforming 32 00:01:57.315 --> 00:02:00.891 challenges into golden opportunities for connections 33 00:02:00.963 --> 00:02:04.643 and growth. Hello, John. Welcome to the show. 34 00:02:04.779 --> 00:02:08.627 Hello, Jo. And thank you very much for inviting me. It's 35 00:02:08.651 --> 00:02:12.458 a privilege to come onto your podcast. Yeah, it 36 00:02:12.466 --> 00:02:15.974 was great. I say we randomly met. I mean, in the world scale of things. 37 00:02:16.274 --> 00:02:19.962 It wasn't a planned meeting. I was invited to a function you 38 00:02:19.978 --> 00:02:23.802 were co hosting in London and we got chatting and in fact, we 39 00:02:23.818 --> 00:02:27.138 found we had a lot in common. Similar age, similar military 40 00:02:27.186 --> 00:02:30.770 background, similar outlook on life. Yeah. And 41 00:02:30.922 --> 00:02:34.554 similar place of living as well. So we're not far. Neighbors. 42 00:02:34.594 --> 00:02:38.402 Almost. I'd say almost neighbours. Yeah. We've got the same weather. If we look 43 00:02:38.418 --> 00:02:42.131 out the window. It's been snowing this morning. Yes. Yeah. And 44 00:02:42.163 --> 00:02:45.899 very, very cold. So I'm wrapping up and the heating 45 00:02:45.947 --> 00:02:49.475 is on and it's all. Yeah. Snuggled down to get some warmth in my 46 00:02:49.515 --> 00:02:53.363 bones. Yeah. So where are we? We're sort of midway through 47 00:02:53.419 --> 00:02:57.115 November or later. Later in November, actually, in 2024. 48 00:02:57.155 --> 00:03:00.739 So, yeah, it's a bit of an early cold snap. Yes. Yeah, 49 00:03:00.787 --> 00:03:04.203 absolutely. John turning lead into 50 00:03:04.259 --> 00:03:07.295 gold. Tell me what. Yeah, you sent me 51 00:03:07.915 --> 00:03:11.543 the questions and you asked my superpower and as is. I 52 00:03:11.559 --> 00:03:15.263 couldn't just say, well, it's to empower ergs et cetera, 53 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:18.839 which obviously it is. But I wanted to put something in there about 54 00:03:18.887 --> 00:03:22.275 turning lead into gold, and now you brought me to 55 00:03:22.775 --> 00:03:26.343 task with that. So I've now got to think of what I mean. 56 00:03:26.399 --> 00:03:29.555 So if I was to use that for 57 00:03:30.215 --> 00:03:33.391 my professional role, it would be taking 58 00:03:33.463 --> 00:03:37.231 ideas and putting them into something that you can use 59 00:03:37.263 --> 00:03:40.869 and make a difference. So when I'm working with employee 60 00:03:40.917 --> 00:03:44.373 resource groups, you can call them ergs, call them, you know, business 61 00:03:44.429 --> 00:03:47.745 resource groups, call them affinity groups, whatever you want to call them, and 62 00:03:48.445 --> 00:03:52.189 taking these ideas and joining the dots with these 63 00:03:52.237 --> 00:03:55.941 people. And it's not normally me creating that goal. The goal 64 00:03:55.973 --> 00:03:59.677 is created by the people that, you know that I'm teaching. So 65 00:03:59.701 --> 00:04:03.373 I'm. Or not teaching, or just could be facilitating, if you like, 66 00:04:03.429 --> 00:04:07.181 but getting these people to speak and to take an idea and make it 67 00:04:07.213 --> 00:04:10.897 real and for it to really make a difference in the 68 00:04:10.921 --> 00:04:14.625 workplace. And we were chatting, Jo, before we started recording 69 00:04:14.665 --> 00:04:17.529 this, about how the 70 00:04:17.697 --> 00:04:21.465 ERGs can make a difference within an organization 71 00:04:21.585 --> 00:04:25.289 is exactly that. By making these 72 00:04:25.377 --> 00:04:28.785 people, not making them, but helping these people 73 00:04:28.865 --> 00:04:32.177 to make good what they want to be doing with their community 74 00:04:32.241 --> 00:04:35.943 groups. So I would say that would be. That would be gold, 75 00:04:35.999 --> 00:04:39.263 really. And like I say, the gold is created by other people, not me. I'm 76 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:42.671 sure we've got people listening who probably not familiar with the 77 00:04:42.823 --> 00:04:46.543 raison d'etre of a ERG employee resource group, staff 78 00:04:46.599 --> 00:04:50.279 network. How do they manifest themselves? What's their 79 00:04:50.327 --> 00:04:53.759 purpose in the world? Well, it's. It's giving 80 00:04:53.847 --> 00:04:56.967 people a safe place within an 81 00:04:56.991 --> 00:05:00.543 organization. And this could be, you know, small. It could be a hundred 82 00:05:00.599 --> 00:05:04.425 people, up to thousands of people. And just to give you 83 00:05:04.465 --> 00:05:07.817 my background, I work for a large 84 00:05:07.881 --> 00:05:11.705 corporation and I was part of the DE and I 85 00:05:11.745 --> 00:05:15.393 another lovely. We love an acronym, don't we? Diversity, equity and 86 00:05:15.449 --> 00:05:19.125 inclusion. So I was part of that within 87 00:05:19.625 --> 00:05:23.313 this company. And I helped to 88 00:05:23.489 --> 00:05:26.685 create an ERG around disability 89 00:05:27.345 --> 00:05:29.721 and also was an ally for the 90 00:05:29.753 --> 00:05:33.393 LGBTQIA erg, the Black alliance 91 00:05:33.449 --> 00:05:36.623 erg. And also I was part of the Veterans 92 00:05:36.679 --> 00:05:40.407 erg. So these are groups of people who want to 93 00:05:40.431 --> 00:05:44.079 come together. I call it a safe space. And they want to join 94 00:05:44.127 --> 00:05:47.839 forces and make the workplace 95 00:05:47.967 --> 00:05:51.399 better for them to help for 96 00:05:51.447 --> 00:05:54.799 the issues and challenges that they have and create a group 97 00:05:54.847 --> 00:05:58.135 where they can talk about their challenges, they can 98 00:05:58.175 --> 00:06:01.911 hopefully make a difference within the company to do 99 00:06:01.943 --> 00:06:05.327 that. With the disability ERG that I was a co 100 00:06:05.391 --> 00:06:09.111 founder of, because of my experience with COVID we looked 101 00:06:09.143 --> 00:06:12.799 at how my company could better support people with 102 00:06:12.847 --> 00:06:16.447 disability. And because A disability erg. And I know we 103 00:06:16.471 --> 00:06:20.303 hesitate to use the word disability, but the challenges that people, 104 00:06:20.359 --> 00:06:23.319 even if they're neurodiverse, if they're physically 105 00:06:23.407 --> 00:06:26.555 disabled, if like me, it was 106 00:06:27.545 --> 00:06:31.305 again hesitate to use it, but I will. A mental issue around my 107 00:06:31.345 --> 00:06:35.129 experience with COVID how they can be supported with things such as, 108 00:06:35.177 --> 00:06:38.945 you know, help within the workplace, getting into 109 00:06:39.025 --> 00:06:42.817 work, time off from work when needed. So it gives you 110 00:06:42.841 --> 00:06:46.161 that support around you with people who are like 111 00:06:46.313 --> 00:06:50.145 minded and facing the same challenges. And that works 112 00:06:50.185 --> 00:06:53.873 across all employee resource groups. We had Latinos and 113 00:06:53.889 --> 00:06:57.613 Nidos, which are Latin American, a support group, like I said, 114 00:06:57.629 --> 00:07:00.781 the LGBTQ +IA group, 115 00:07:00.893 --> 00:07:04.421 disability. There was women in technology, there 116 00:07:04.453 --> 00:07:08.213 was, you know, so many groups that we had within there. 117 00:07:08.229 --> 00:07:11.901 I was lucky enough to be working at a company that supported them and 118 00:07:11.933 --> 00:07:14.741 allowed them to do it. So, so that's what an erg, it's a group of 119 00:07:14.773 --> 00:07:18.621 friends, I suppose. A group of friends. A group of like minded people helping 120 00:07:18.693 --> 00:07:21.677 to make the workplace a better place to go to. Yeah. Because they can be 121 00:07:21.701 --> 00:07:25.225 extremely powerful from an organizational perspective as well. 122 00:07:26.245 --> 00:07:29.485 It's from my understanding the perfect relationship is where the symbiosis, 123 00:07:29.565 --> 00:07:33.181 where the members of the ERG feel that advocacy and 124 00:07:33.213 --> 00:07:36.645 belongingness and safe space to better be 125 00:07:36.685 --> 00:07:40.013 themselves. Also the organization benefits from having 126 00:07:40.109 --> 00:07:43.945 sounding boards. They can use them strategically or even tactically 127 00:07:44.445 --> 00:07:47.909 to look at challenges, can't they? Yeah, well, we used to work 128 00:07:47.957 --> 00:07:51.223 quite heavily with the recruitment side 129 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:54.855 because we're finding more and more now when people go look at 130 00:07:54.895 --> 00:07:58.351 joining a company, they'll go to their webpage, they'll look at 131 00:07:58.383 --> 00:08:02.071 what diversity or ergs that they 132 00:08:02.103 --> 00:08:05.943 have within that company and that will help them to make the decision as to 133 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.767 whether they should join. But not only that, also once they 134 00:08:09.791 --> 00:08:13.623 are there is making sure they don't leave because I don't 135 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:17.299 have the exact figures to hand. But the cost of, you know, if you 136 00:08:17.367 --> 00:08:21.171 bring someone on board, you train them up, you bring them into the company, you 137 00:08:21.203 --> 00:08:24.931 go through all that process which takes a while and then they just leave. 138 00:08:25.003 --> 00:08:28.835 The cost to the company is huge. So by giving them a 139 00:08:28.875 --> 00:08:32.691 workplace where you know, they want to stay, then that, 140 00:08:32.803 --> 00:08:36.555 that really helps. We can have rose tinted 141 00:08:36.595 --> 00:08:39.475 glasses and say, well, companies just want to do it because they want to support 142 00:08:39.515 --> 00:08:43.283 their workplace, but they also want numbers. They also want to say, well okay, 143 00:08:43.339 --> 00:08:46.995 I'm doing this, but why? How is it helping? Because they're a business and 144 00:08:47.115 --> 00:08:50.911 you understand that. But it's quite easily, I think, quite 145 00:08:50.943 --> 00:08:54.591 easy, I think to, to, to bring, put figures together and to support 146 00:08:54.663 --> 00:08:58.319 why you should have an erg and why you should invest in that. 147 00:08:58.367 --> 00:09:01.575 Because, you know, there's, there's so much you gain from it. And if an employee 148 00:09:01.615 --> 00:09:05.303 doesn't see it, and not all do, there are some that are quite, they 149 00:09:05.319 --> 00:09:09.063 will, they will say the right words and they will say, oh 150 00:09:09.079 --> 00:09:12.423 yeah, we need EIGs because everyone else is doing it and they're not supported. And 151 00:09:12.439 --> 00:09:16.137 that's another big pitfall for this kind of thing is they'll say, 152 00:09:16.161 --> 00:09:19.185 yeah, we need it, we want it on the website. We want to show we're, 153 00:09:19.225 --> 00:09:22.961 you know, we're a diverse corporation. But then they don't, 154 00:09:23.113 --> 00:09:26.525 they don't help to make that survive. So it with us on the vine, 155 00:09:26.945 --> 00:09:30.417 basically. And that's another important part of 156 00:09:30.601 --> 00:09:34.417 not just having ergs, but making sure that they flourish and making sure 157 00:09:34.521 --> 00:09:38.281 that the people within them feel they're being supported either through money or 158 00:09:38.313 --> 00:09:41.005 by the, you know, board level 159 00:09:42.235 --> 00:09:45.603 sponsorship, et cetera, is just as important as saying, yeah, let's do it and 160 00:09:45.619 --> 00:09:48.775 let's not support it. Which happens. 161 00:09:49.515 --> 00:09:53.195 Yeah. I was at an event last week, I think it was, 162 00:09:53.235 --> 00:09:56.347 and Bruce Daisley, the culture 163 00:09:56.451 --> 00:10:00.163 expert, ex VP of Twitter Europe, I think he 164 00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:03.571 was there talking. And one of the things, one of his insightful 165 00:10:03.603 --> 00:10:07.187 throwaways is a real sense of valuing and 166 00:10:07.211 --> 00:10:10.693 judging employee experience and, and the belongingness in 167 00:10:10.709 --> 00:10:14.557 organization is that one good sign is your best friend works at 168 00:10:14.581 --> 00:10:18.245 your organization. Yeah. And ERGs can foster that 169 00:10:18.285 --> 00:10:22.061 belonging and create you, if you like, 170 00:10:22.213 --> 00:10:25.501 friends outside of your day to day colleagues in an 171 00:10:25.533 --> 00:10:28.989 organization. And we know that creates stickiness 172 00:10:29.157 --> 00:10:32.877 within the culture, doesn't it? I think absolutely. And you're 173 00:10:32.901 --> 00:10:36.677 right there. And that's why I feel with ergs, 174 00:10:36.861 --> 00:10:40.653 allyship is so important because we're not only, look, 175 00:10:40.789 --> 00:10:44.461 we're not only looking to support and educate the people within 176 00:10:44.573 --> 00:10:48.261 that group, but we're also looking to then support people 177 00:10:48.333 --> 00:10:51.465 outside of that group to understand. And education 178 00:10:52.045 --> 00:10:55.789 is very important. And that's why I said allies is, you 179 00:10:55.797 --> 00:10:59.645 know, make, make a huge difference because you can, you can preach 180 00:10:59.685 --> 00:11:02.597 to the choir, but you really want to 181 00:11:02.661 --> 00:11:06.277 educate people outside because if you don't do 182 00:11:06.301 --> 00:11:10.083 that and you just, and we mentioned earlier, like I say 183 00:11:10.099 --> 00:11:13.795 before we came on the podcast about an echo room, you're just talking to people 184 00:11:13.835 --> 00:11:17.539 who want to hear that you, you need to for a true 185 00:11:17.587 --> 00:11:21.275 erg to work or is, is to, is to bring on 186 00:11:21.315 --> 00:11:25.043 people who maybe are a bit skeptical about it. And we're finding a 187 00:11:25.059 --> 00:11:28.803 lot, and especially in our Current political climate. We are finding a 188 00:11:28.819 --> 00:11:31.855 lot where, where that skepticism 189 00:11:32.555 --> 00:11:35.947 is becoming more and more prevalent, where there's a backlash 190 00:11:36.011 --> 00:11:39.705 towards diversity. They are saying, well, we 191 00:11:39.745 --> 00:11:43.257 actually want to get rid of diversity. We don't want that to happen. And there's 192 00:11:43.281 --> 00:11:47.041 that polarization between this is diversity and this is, 193 00:11:47.073 --> 00:11:50.325 you know, what we want to do. That's something we really need to 194 00:11:51.305 --> 00:11:55.153 stop, I feel, and is unfortunately becoming more 195 00:11:55.289 --> 00:11:59.097 prevalent at the moment. In my head I'm thinking DEI must 196 00:11:59.161 --> 00:12:02.045 die. So. Dei. Yeah, it's almost like the, 197 00:12:02.675 --> 00:12:06.451 that's the kind of the pushback at the moment that diversity 198 00:12:06.483 --> 00:12:10.323 is seen as a negative now. Or the initiatives not, not the, not the 199 00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:13.723 out end result with the initiatives have got such a bad 200 00:12:13.779 --> 00:12:17.091 name. Yeah. Maybe poorly implemented without 201 00:12:17.203 --> 00:12:20.979 consideration of return on investment. People from a majority 202 00:12:21.147 --> 00:12:24.547 are feeling excluded from an 203 00:12:24.571 --> 00:12:28.195 inclusion exercise. You know, how can you, how can you create an inclusive, 204 00:12:28.235 --> 00:12:31.709 inclusive culture by excluding people? And I think, yeah, people are feeling 205 00:12:31.757 --> 00:12:35.557 excluded because they're not black, they're not. They're not gay, they're not a woman, and 206 00:12:35.581 --> 00:12:39.357 we're marginalizing people. And that's. And that's something I 207 00:12:39.421 --> 00:12:43.141 have experienced myself being a 208 00:12:43.173 --> 00:12:46.869 white male. I have felt sort of not 209 00:12:46.917 --> 00:12:50.517 part of the gang, if you like. And that could be a perception 210 00:12:50.581 --> 00:12:54.305 by me. But yeah, I've definitely. I have felt that 211 00:12:54.605 --> 00:12:58.381 really, you know, being what I am. And I, I grew up at 212 00:12:58.413 --> 00:13:02.261 a time where it's looked 213 00:13:02.293 --> 00:13:05.941 back as being, you know, a black time, not 214 00:13:05.973 --> 00:13:09.693 black time, a dark time where I was doing. I'm trying to 215 00:13:09.709 --> 00:13:13.461 put together actually a 216 00:13:13.493 --> 00:13:16.305 presentation around and I called it Poor Little White Boy 217 00:13:16.605 --> 00:13:20.437 because I grew up in a time where we had. 218 00:13:20.501 --> 00:13:23.991 Even now it sort of shuddered to think about it. When you think 219 00:13:24.023 --> 00:13:27.515 of, you know, shows like the Black and White Minstrels 220 00:13:28.055 --> 00:13:31.551 buying a jar of marmalade with a 221 00:13:31.583 --> 00:13:34.735 cartoon character. I'm not even going to say the name on the side of it, 222 00:13:34.775 --> 00:13:38.607 which you had to collect to get a badge. Where people, you know, 223 00:13:38.671 --> 00:13:42.335 like Alan Turing being gay was illegal 224 00:13:42.415 --> 00:13:45.663 and some of the tv and I grew up with a father who was a 225 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.103 misogynist. He's passed now. Misogynist, a racist. 226 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:53.087 And people look back on that time, and rightly so, they 227 00:13:53.151 --> 00:13:56.671 say, you know, that it was a bad and unenlightened time 228 00:13:56.703 --> 00:13:59.875 then and I grew up within that 229 00:14:00.215 --> 00:14:03.435 environment. And they say that people can be 230 00:14:04.055 --> 00:14:07.655 formed by what they grew up with. And absolutely not for me, if 231 00:14:07.695 --> 00:14:11.383 anything, it made me shun those ideas. It made 232 00:14:11.439 --> 00:14:15.071 me into who I am and not in a bad way. And 233 00:14:15.143 --> 00:14:18.623 I'M not saying that everyone who grew up in that time, you still get, people 234 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.087 say, well, you know, I grew up in those times and it was all right 235 00:14:22.111 --> 00:14:25.583 then, wasn't it? You know, we were, we were okay. But, and, 236 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:29.315 and, and that phrase of, you know, all the good old days, 237 00:14:30.015 --> 00:14:33.863 the days of, you know, where I felt comfortable, the days of where 238 00:14:33.959 --> 00:14:37.719 everything was okay, wasn't it? And those people are there and you see them 239 00:14:37.767 --> 00:14:41.295 every day. And my father was, was one of those. But it certainly doesn't 240 00:14:41.335 --> 00:14:44.919 shape me. And I'm of the, the 241 00:14:44.967 --> 00:14:47.635 strong feeling. You just get bad people. 242 00:14:48.735 --> 00:14:52.351 You just get people that are bad no matter what, what, where they come 243 00:14:52.383 --> 00:14:56.031 from, whether they're, you know, lgbtqia, whether they're black, whether they're white, whether 244 00:14:56.063 --> 00:14:59.607 they're Christian, whether they're Catholic, whatever, you just get bad people. 245 00:14:59.671 --> 00:15:03.415 And, and I hate to be painted 246 00:15:03.455 --> 00:15:06.943 with that brush to people to think. And this is, I think is one of 247 00:15:06.959 --> 00:15:10.439 the worst things that you can do in any. We talk about 248 00:15:10.567 --> 00:15:14.189 diversity, we talk about racism, and racism is 249 00:15:14.277 --> 00:15:17.957 painting everyone from that, in my view, anyway, painting everyone 250 00:15:18.021 --> 00:15:21.465 within that particular group of people 251 00:15:22.005 --> 00:15:25.781 as one thing, as by saying, well, all Muslims 252 00:15:25.813 --> 00:15:29.061 are this, all Christians are this. You know, everyone within the 253 00:15:29.093 --> 00:15:32.813 LGBTQIA plus is this. And that's where racism comes on. 254 00:15:32.909 --> 00:15:36.693 You just, you just get bad people. No matter what you're doing in life, you 255 00:15:36.709 --> 00:15:40.507 just get bad people. I think. Yeah. But inherently bad 256 00:15:40.531 --> 00:15:44.107 people don't think they're bad. No, of course not. So we all, we 257 00:15:44.131 --> 00:15:47.843 all actually believe we're good people. Every single person believes they're a 258 00:15:47.859 --> 00:15:51.707 good person. Yeah. And within your echo chamber, within your circle 259 00:15:51.731 --> 00:15:55.467 of friends, within your tight knit community, within your, whatever you 260 00:15:55.491 --> 00:15:59.163 want to call it, we all believe because we're being reinforced. 261 00:15:59.219 --> 00:16:02.675 We're product of our upbringing, product of our environment. If everyone 262 00:16:02.755 --> 00:16:06.323 says, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. Confirmation bias. Yeah, you're 263 00:16:06.339 --> 00:16:10.079 kicking. Whistling affinity bias. All this stuff kicks in 264 00:16:10.247 --> 00:16:14.071 and then you believe that you're, you're us and 265 00:16:14.103 --> 00:16:17.791 everybody else is them. And that's, that's the problem sometimes is we get so 266 00:16:17.823 --> 00:16:21.519 locked up into our own belief of us and everyone thinks, like 267 00:16:21.567 --> 00:16:25.319 me. Yeah. We look at Brexit, we look at the 268 00:16:25.407 --> 00:16:29.075 political elections that go on, we look at what's going on, going on in America. 269 00:16:29.855 --> 00:16:33.471 I can't believe that anybody would vote not like me, 270 00:16:33.543 --> 00:16:36.961 given the choices, but clearly over half the 271 00:16:36.993 --> 00:16:40.777 population believe something different and they're not daft. There must 272 00:16:40.801 --> 00:16:43.881 be a reason, but I can't fathom it. Because I live in a different 273 00:16:43.953 --> 00:16:47.713 reality and I don't understand why they're, why they're polarized in a 274 00:16:47.729 --> 00:16:51.473 different way. Yeah. With the amount of conversations. My mum, I 275 00:16:51.489 --> 00:16:55.273 love so much and has been such a big part of my life, not 276 00:16:55.289 --> 00:16:58.165 having a father figure in my life. My mum 277 00:16:59.065 --> 00:17:02.761 has been there for me and my comfort blanket is my 278 00:17:02.793 --> 00:17:06.470 mum through my childhood and even today. But she voted Brexit 279 00:17:06.542 --> 00:17:10.150 and the conversations 280 00:17:10.222 --> 00:17:13.606 we've had around that. And you think, wow, 281 00:17:13.710 --> 00:17:17.502 yeah. And this is my, obviously my opinion around the whole Brexit thing. I think 282 00:17:17.518 --> 00:17:21.302 it was a terrible thing that happened, but my mum did that. Someone who is 283 00:17:21.398 --> 00:17:25.022 such a large part of my life. So, yeah, I'm 284 00:17:25.038 --> 00:17:28.758 sure my mom voted for Brexit as well. She's an avid Daily 285 00:17:28.806 --> 00:17:32.510 Mail reader. She's a GP news watcher and very blue. 286 00:17:32.582 --> 00:17:36.415 And she often speaks highly of some of the people that I 287 00:17:36.715 --> 00:17:40.507 would question their opinions on. I got my mum off the 288 00:17:40.531 --> 00:17:43.659 Daily Mail. I got her moved from the Daily Mail to the, to the Daily 289 00:17:43.707 --> 00:17:47.035 Express. So I'm hoping it's a little bit, little bit better than that. Yeah. Yeah. 290 00:17:47.075 --> 00:17:50.619 And it's like you, you very, like you said there, 291 00:17:50.667 --> 00:17:53.055 Jo, around, they believe 292 00:17:54.275 --> 00:17:57.939 that what they're saying is correct and within their, within 293 00:17:57.987 --> 00:18:01.587 their world. And this is exacerbated, I think, 294 00:18:01.651 --> 00:18:05.067 with. Because the echo chamber nowadays has got huge, isn't 295 00:18:05.091 --> 00:18:08.491 it? When we look at Twitter and we look at Facebook and we look 296 00:18:08.523 --> 00:18:12.315 at all the channels that are available to us, 297 00:18:12.355 --> 00:18:16.027 that echo chamber is hundreds of thousands of people. And 298 00:18:16.051 --> 00:18:19.787 then you're going to think, well, okay, if they say it, then it must be 299 00:18:19.811 --> 00:18:23.531 true. And everyone's a hater. And that's where the polarization has come in, I 300 00:18:23.563 --> 00:18:27.363 think. And that certainly was there for Brexit. And also when 301 00:18:27.379 --> 00:18:31.055 I speak to my American friends around the elections recently 302 00:18:31.905 --> 00:18:35.401 with the presidential elections is it's been such a 303 00:18:35.433 --> 00:18:38.325 polarization. Whereas before, and 304 00:18:39.185 --> 00:18:42.977 I look back to both with the political arena within 305 00:18:43.001 --> 00:18:46.745 the UK and also within the us, you could 306 00:18:46.785 --> 00:18:50.577 be. You could support a party, but you 307 00:18:50.601 --> 00:18:54.361 could still have friends who supported the other party. But you're 308 00:18:54.393 --> 00:18:56.965 finding now, especially in the US 309 00:18:58.115 --> 00:19:01.803 and with Brexit here, it actually will tear those apart. 310 00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:05.547 It will break those friendship bonds or family bonds. Even parts of the 311 00:19:05.571 --> 00:19:09.147 same family no longer speak to each other because of the way 312 00:19:09.171 --> 00:19:12.295 that they're voting. So it's got. That polarization 313 00:19:12.835 --> 00:19:16.667 is incredible. Really is. Yeah. One of the golden rules that I was 314 00:19:16.691 --> 00:19:20.411 always taught when we were growing up was you don't talk about religion. Politics 315 00:19:20.443 --> 00:19:24.171 or money kind of thing. And those aren't polite conversations for the dinner 316 00:19:24.203 --> 00:19:27.509 table or the workplace. But we have to create 317 00:19:27.597 --> 00:19:30.985 spaces where our beliefs aren't 318 00:19:31.405 --> 00:19:35.101 submerged. Because when you talk about psychological safety, you think about bringing your whole 319 00:19:35.133 --> 00:19:38.501 self to work. All these buzz phrases that we use today, if you're having to 320 00:19:38.533 --> 00:19:42.237 suppress your views and beliefs, it's not 321 00:19:42.261 --> 00:19:45.205 good for you as a person if you're working in an environment where you can't 322 00:19:45.285 --> 00:19:48.941 be who you are. So how do we square this 323 00:19:48.973 --> 00:19:52.783 circle of paradox where the intolerance of intolerance, you 324 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.431 know, it's kind of. We got to be careful here. We can't all speak our 325 00:19:55.463 --> 00:19:58.767 mind. No, it's funny, isn't it? Because we were talking 326 00:19:58.871 --> 00:20:02.567 about the, you know, at the 327 00:20:02.591 --> 00:20:05.315 conference we had in London where I got to meet you, 328 00:20:06.215 --> 00:20:09.435 we were talking about a governance around 329 00:20:10.055 --> 00:20:13.847 resource groups. A governance around. Because you can't, you 330 00:20:13.871 --> 00:20:17.195 can't say, right, anyone can create a resource group 331 00:20:18.165 --> 00:20:20.905 because of what that brings on. 332 00:20:22.085 --> 00:20:25.813 So yes, we can say we're 333 00:20:25.869 --> 00:20:29.477 inclusive for everyone. It's like when they started saying, well, you know, white lives 334 00:20:29.541 --> 00:20:33.065 matter too, all that side of things. 335 00:20:33.485 --> 00:20:36.885 You have to be careful, really, around that 336 00:20:36.925 --> 00:20:40.717 side. And if there's right wing organization and they 337 00:20:40.741 --> 00:20:44.299 want to create an employee, a resource group as well, how do you do that? 338 00:20:44.387 --> 00:20:47.363 It's a difficult one because inclusivity should mean 339 00:20:47.419 --> 00:20:51.243 inclusivity. Freedom of speech should mean freedom of speech. 340 00:20:51.339 --> 00:20:55.075 But my thoughts around that are, if anything 341 00:20:55.115 --> 00:20:58.883 that you're doing, if anything that you want to say, right, we 342 00:20:58.899 --> 00:21:02.495 want to get a gang together. If that harms 343 00:21:03.515 --> 00:21:06.255 other people, if that is 344 00:21:06.955 --> 00:21:09.495 directly aimed with anger 345 00:21:10.865 --> 00:21:14.705 to other people, then that's where we draw the line, I feel. Yeah, 346 00:21:14.745 --> 00:21:18.233 I mean, that for me is really where we say, well, okay, we do have 347 00:21:18.249 --> 00:21:21.505 the right, but you have no right to personally enforce your 348 00:21:21.545 --> 00:21:25.137 views upon other people and second of all, create 349 00:21:25.201 --> 00:21:28.825 direct harm within other people. And I think me personally, 350 00:21:28.865 --> 00:21:32.325 that's where I would say, you know, we should draw the line. We look at 351 00:21:32.665 --> 00:21:36.513 some major political figures in our history, we know 352 00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:40.061 we look. Well, I say art history, world history. Nelson 353 00:21:40.093 --> 00:21:43.557 Mandela, freedom fighter, terrorist, 354 00:21:43.741 --> 00:21:47.565 world leader. Lech Vowensa, freedom 355 00:21:47.605 --> 00:21:50.905 fighter, terrorist, world leader. 356 00:21:51.245 --> 00:21:54.589 And you look at Sinn Fein and some of the leaders, Jerry Adams, people like 357 00:21:54.597 --> 00:21:58.221 that, they went from being terrorist, freedom fighter to political 358 00:21:58.293 --> 00:22:02.101 leaders in their country. And we now see Sinn taking a 359 00:22:02.133 --> 00:22:05.645 political stance even within the north of Ireland. So 360 00:22:06.465 --> 00:22:10.033 it depends on who's writing the history, doesn't it? Well, absolutely it does. 361 00:22:10.129 --> 00:22:13.793 Yeah. There was the, the, the issue 362 00:22:13.849 --> 00:22:17.125 in Bristol with the statue of the. 363 00:22:18.065 --> 00:22:21.497 And again, apologies, I forget the name of the person, but I very 364 00:22:21.601 --> 00:22:24.525 vividly can remember them pushing the statue into. 365 00:22:25.345 --> 00:22:29.005 Into the river of Bristol. You know, person who. 366 00:22:29.505 --> 00:22:32.945 Who put a lot of money into schools, put a lot of money 367 00:22:33.025 --> 00:22:36.205 into the local community, built buildings. Bu. 368 00:22:36.965 --> 00:22:40.253 Slave trader. So that, you know, where. Where does that sit? What do you do 369 00:22:40.269 --> 00:22:43.837 with that? I mean, I put. I personally think if the context is there and 370 00:22:43.861 --> 00:22:47.629 people understand that and people are educated around 371 00:22:47.677 --> 00:22:51.397 that and it's not hidden from, then that is part of history. It's 372 00:22:51.421 --> 00:22:55.125 the same with. With Nelson Mandela. I mean, again, I'm. 373 00:22:55.205 --> 00:22:58.501 I apologize for not being. To know as. As much as I should do about 374 00:22:58.573 --> 00:23:01.995 things like that. But we. We put content. It happened. 375 00:23:02.165 --> 00:23:05.871 Yeah. These people went through a process. Some would call it terrorism, some would 376 00:23:05.903 --> 00:23:09.631 call it fighting the fight. It depends where you sit 377 00:23:09.663 --> 00:23:13.255 on that, doesn't it? And I don't feel either you 378 00:23:13.295 --> 00:23:16.823 or me can sit there and comprehensively say, you know, 379 00:23:16.959 --> 00:23:20.567 that's wrong, because, you know, I'm not sure 380 00:23:20.711 --> 00:23:23.887 you can do that. Yeah. And I mean, bringing it back to the workplace and 381 00:23:23.951 --> 00:23:27.655 we've got bit onto world policy. We have, yeah. Very deep. 382 00:23:27.735 --> 00:23:31.517 You end up with this inherent conflict between the rights of each 383 00:23:31.541 --> 00:23:35.141 other. You know, in. I've seen in the civil service, 384 00:23:35.293 --> 00:23:38.573 they've set up a staff 385 00:23:38.669 --> 00:23:41.909 network that champions the supremacy of sex over 386 00:23:41.957 --> 00:23:45.677 gender to almost like oppose the LGBTQ plus 387 00:23:45.741 --> 00:23:49.373 network, to give people who have those beliefs 388 00:23:49.509 --> 00:23:53.221 a place where they feel belonging. So you have to 389 00:23:53.253 --> 00:23:56.477 allow people to have these thoughts and beliefs and what we call a projective 390 00:23:56.501 --> 00:24:00.265 belief. But somehow the organization has to wrestle with this 391 00:24:00.805 --> 00:24:04.557 to stop it becoming toxic or weaponized. And I, And 392 00:24:04.581 --> 00:24:08.429 I truly feel that there is a place for 393 00:24:08.477 --> 00:24:11.985 both there. But that should be encouraging conversation 394 00:24:12.525 --> 00:24:16.325 that should be saying, well, okay, you know, I disagree with 395 00:24:16.405 --> 00:24:20.165 this. I feel it should be this. But to. Because 396 00:24:20.205 --> 00:24:24.053 there's been a lot of, you know, militant actions around these things 397 00:24:24.109 --> 00:24:27.901 where people. It's almost. It is almost like a battle. I'm 398 00:24:27.933 --> 00:24:31.181 right. This is wrong. You know, you can't do that. You can't do this 399 00:24:31.293 --> 00:24:34.853 conversation. We are. We should be talking about it. 400 00:24:34.989 --> 00:24:38.349 And even if we can't say, oh, okay, yeah, I agree now. 401 00:24:38.517 --> 00:24:41.757