Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where
Joanne Lockwood: everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're
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Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites. Today is episode 141
Joanne Lockwood: with the title, no expected outcome.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Steff
Joanne Lockwood: VanHaverbeker. And that's not easy to say a flourished name
Joanne Lockwood: as an English person. Steff is the cofounder of
Joanne Lockwood: the House of Coaching. She empowers professionals with
Joanne Lockwood: cognitive agility and inclusion driven strategies
Joanne Lockwood: to thrive in a rapidly changing world. And when I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Steff to describe her superbash, she said that it is her empathy
Joanne Lockwood: and self confidence enabling her to deeply
Joanne Lockwood: understand unique challenges and empower individuals
Joanne Lockwood: to uncover their strengths. Hello, Steff. Welcome
Joanne Lockwood: to the show. Hey, Jo. It's great to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely fabulous. And how did I do on your name? Did I did I get
Joanne Lockwood: it close? It sounded perfect. Thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. And I know it's hard. It is.
Joanne Lockwood: It's, the Dutch language is a law unto itself,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? With lots of, guttural Yeah. Sort of throat noises, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: It's a It comes from deep within. Deep
Joanne Lockwood: within. Yeah. I've had many Dutch friends, and I've been to that part
Joanne Lockwood: of the world many times. And, yeah, we sit in bars and laugh
Joanne Lockwood: about pronunciations and things. And Yeah. I
Steph VanHaverbeke: know. So you you Steff. You were doing great. Yes. Thank you. Thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. So Steff, tell me more. No expected
Joanne Lockwood: outcomes. What's all the heard about? Yeah. Well, it's,
Steph VanHaverbeke: it's something that I I realized a few months ago.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Beginning of this year, we're we're now December of
Steph VanHaverbeke: 2024. And, and past year, so in
Steph VanHaverbeke: 2023, post COVID, my main business, my main
Steph VanHaverbeke: activity suffered from the COVID pandemic and went
Steph VanHaverbeke: bankrupt. So that meant that
Steph VanHaverbeke: I had to reinvent myself, reinvent
Steph VanHaverbeke: my business. In Dutch we have this beautiful word it's called
Steph VanHaverbeke: Dorstaat. So it's starting true. That's not starting here,
Steph VanHaverbeke: but you're making a true push something through through
Steph VanHaverbeke: through the troubles, through and at the same time, I was
Steph VanHaverbeke: going through my gender transition as well. So this
Steph VanHaverbeke: meant there was a whole lot of stuff going on at the
Steph VanHaverbeke: same time. And and,
Steph VanHaverbeke: and at one Friday morning, beginning this year, I had this
Steph VanHaverbeke: long, long, long, long list of things that I needed to do. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: I sat in front of my computer, like I'm sitting here now,
Steph VanHaverbeke: and watching its screen and just a whole
Steph VanHaverbeke: list of emails and all you know you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: that feeling. Too much to, you know
Steph VanHaverbeke: and and you you want to get through it. And then my eye felt
Steph VanHaverbeke: on this, synthesizer that I got for my
Steph VanHaverbeke: birthday. And I was still wrapped. It's, it was
Steph VanHaverbeke: one of my old passions to make music. And I said,
Steph VanHaverbeke: come on. What? Hell, let's let's unwrap this thing.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And I hooked it up, and I played music the whole day.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And what I noticed is that by doing this,
Steph VanHaverbeke: by shifting my focus away from, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: the result oriented tasks that I needed to do,
Steph VanHaverbeke: I felt energized. I felt inspired.
Steph VanHaverbeke: I got back into flow. And I was able to do
Steph VanHaverbeke: that list of tasks, in just
Steph VanHaverbeke: maybe an hour or so afterwards. Just because
Steph VanHaverbeke: I I, yeah, resourced. I refined my
Steph VanHaverbeke: energy by having by
Steph VanHaverbeke: making a small decision, actually. And that's that's that's what
Steph VanHaverbeke: this neo or no expected outcome. That's what this
Steph VanHaverbeke: that's what this is about. So that's quite a challenging journey
Joanne Lockwood: you've had there. So a complete reboot.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. But so he had no expected outcome from
Joanne Lockwood: that, but you knew you knew what
Joanne Lockwood: wasn't working. You just weren't sure
Joanne Lockwood: what would work. Is it is that kind of fair? Yeah. Yeah.
Steph VanHaverbeke: No. It's it is it is. No. I reflected
Steph VanHaverbeke: a lot afterwards. After that particular Friday, I went
Steph VanHaverbeke: Friday evening, I went walking with my
Steph VanHaverbeke: dog in the park here and, just
Steph VanHaverbeke: right in front of my house. And, as I was
Steph VanHaverbeke: walking, I reflected on what what happened. And it doesn't seem like
Steph VanHaverbeke: a lot happened, but it was for me, it was very profound
Steph VanHaverbeke: because I was, you know, I'm a person who was always, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: out there putting the foot on the pedal and put
Steph VanHaverbeke: the foot on the pedal and plow through. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: just by making a small decision to take a step
Steph VanHaverbeke: back, to do something that I'm passionate about,
Steph VanHaverbeke: being creative a whole day and
Steph VanHaverbeke: having no expectation about this, not having not having this
Steph VanHaverbeke: sense of guilt. I need to do this or or this will get me in
Steph VanHaverbeke: trouble. So this there was no no guilt involved.
Steph VanHaverbeke: So it freed me. It set me free, actually. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: then as I was walking my dog, this this this word came to
Steph VanHaverbeke: me, no expected outcome. I had
Steph VanHaverbeke: no outcome that I was expecting from that day. I let it
Steph VanHaverbeke: go, and that meant that I was able to
Steph VanHaverbeke: reenergize myself. And yeah. And that's that's
Steph VanHaverbeke: something that I that I discussed with a lot of people since
Steph VanHaverbeke: and I found that But presumably. Yeah. Presumably. But when you when you were going
Joanne Lockwood: up to this period, you must have had a a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: apprehension, fear Mhmm. Nervousness, all these kind of
Joanne Lockwood: words of limiting beliefs, things holding you back.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Was there a a particularly defining moment that
Joanne Lockwood: you remember that was the key to the lock that allowed
Joanne Lockwood: you to move forward? It was a conversation with a friend. And,
Steph VanHaverbeke: I was talking about this my experience. And we were sitting in this,
Steph VanHaverbeke: coffee shop drinking a cup of coffee and and having a sandwich. And,
Steph VanHaverbeke: and then I was discussing you know, just talking about my experience.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And then he said, you know, this is this is so recognizable because, you
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, I'm also somebody who, he said, who who's really, you
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, focused on, you know, results, results,
Steph VanHaverbeke: results. I have to do this. I have to do that. I need to do
Steph VanHaverbeke: this, and it needs to be perfect, and this and that.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And, and as he as he was
Steph VanHaverbeke: describing this, he burst into tears. He said, this is, this
Steph VanHaverbeke: is, you know, he said, this your story is also my story
Steph VanHaverbeke: because I have the same experience, but I'm not
Steph VanHaverbeke: not able myself to do this, to do what you did.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And it's such a simple thing. It's making a decision. But
Steph VanHaverbeke: they said, I know from myself I won't be able to do this because I
Steph VanHaverbeke: have this sense of, you know, if I would do this, first of
Steph VanHaverbeke: all, I don't know if it would work for me. And second of all, yeah,
Steph VanHaverbeke: would I be able to allow myself to do to make such a decision? And
Steph VanHaverbeke: I had thought, you know, WTF, what is going on here? How
Steph VanHaverbeke: how are we programmed that we have to
Steph VanHaverbeke: perform every day? We we are robots and we have
Steph VanHaverbeke: to be economically, you know, a piece of the
Steph VanHaverbeke: machinery. I mean, that we don't allow ourselves this
Steph VanHaverbeke: this small freedom to to be creative when we want.
Joanne Lockwood: Would you looking back on it, would you say
Joanne Lockwood: that COVID created the the the
Joanne Lockwood: challenge with your business, which created the bankruptcy, which
Joanne Lockwood: then empowered you to gender transition, or do you
Joanne Lockwood: think it was kind of a bit of everything? It was a bit of everything.
Steph VanHaverbeke: It's not I did not transition because of COVID. No. That that
Steph VanHaverbeke: that that has been part of me for a way longer time. But it is
Steph VanHaverbeke: it is it gave me the that that was
Steph VanHaverbeke: something maybe that was an element, that it gave me the time to reflect
Steph VanHaverbeke: on things. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I I I reflect on some of my my own history and my own experience.
Joanne Lockwood: The once, momentum is in in progress, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: you've got some movement on change. I'd almost felt that the need to just
Joanne Lockwood: change everything rather than change a bit because you think you come back to it
Joanne Lockwood: and you just pick at the edges. You got to cut deep and cut really
Joanne Lockwood: efficiently into your life and say, hang on a minute. This isn't working in all
Joanne Lockwood: these different aspects. And if you're going to change something, you must have just
Joanne Lockwood: give it a go. Yeah. There's something there, of course.
Steph VanHaverbeke: This this kind of this this is a kind of change that is
Steph VanHaverbeke: profound because it's about your identity, and your identity
Steph VanHaverbeke: determines so much. You know, it's and
Steph VanHaverbeke: it's it's a very, very, very small things. It's not only the big things.
Steph VanHaverbeke: It's not only about how you present yourself or how you you
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, what what are you going to wear today. It's it's it's part of it,
Steph VanHaverbeke: but it is it is not that. It is it goes so much
Steph VanHaverbeke: deeper. And and, of course, COVID COVID played. It gave me the
Steph VanHaverbeke: opportunity, to do this
Steph VanHaverbeke: in kind of my own, my own tempo. You
Steph VanHaverbeke: know? My own pace. That's that's true. So in
Steph VanHaverbeke: that sense, yeah. So we'll talk a bit more
Joanne Lockwood: about your coaching and what you're doing now. But can I just ask you a
Joanne Lockwood: couple of kind of questions around you're living in
Joanne Lockwood: Belgium, you mentioned to me before we kicked off?
Joanne Lockwood: What's the, let's say, the climate for
Joanne Lockwood: you as a a transgender woman? You know, we see what's going on in the
Joanne Lockwood: US. We see what's going on in you probably see what's going on in the
Joanne Lockwood: UK. I have very little knowledge around what it's like to
Joanne Lockwood: be a transgender person in mainland
Joanne Lockwood: Europe. How does it feel to you? Well, I feel very
Steph VanHaverbeke: lucky because in Belgium, we have one of the most progressive
Steph VanHaverbeke: legislation around gender and gender equality and
Steph VanHaverbeke: gender. You know, that you can simply, as a Belgian
Steph VanHaverbeke: citizen, you can simply go to the how does it call it? The city hall,
Steph VanHaverbeke: to the administration, and just state, this is now my gender. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: that's it. And they have to change everything legally just because you are
Steph VanHaverbeke: making that statement. So it's very easy.
Steph VanHaverbeke: There's Belgium, they decided that there shouldn't be any
Steph VanHaverbeke: hurdles because that would be discriminatory
Steph VanHaverbeke: how to say that? Discriminatory. Yeah. That's a
Steph VanHaverbeke: difficult word for me as a Flemish.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Yeah. So, and in that sense, we are very lucky.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And in terms of society,
Steph VanHaverbeke: when I made public that I was transitioning, I got
Steph VanHaverbeke: nothing else than encouragement and people
Steph VanHaverbeke: who appreciated what I was doing and found it very courageous
Steph VanHaverbeke: and things like that. So that's, that's even in my, it starts in my own
Steph VanHaverbeke: family, of course. My wife, my daughter.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Okay. My wife is a little bit different story, of course, because
Steph VanHaverbeke: we were not married as a woman with a woman. We were married
Steph VanHaverbeke: as a man with a woman. So and that's some still something,
Steph VanHaverbeke: of course, we we have to work on every day,
Steph VanHaverbeke: you know, because it's it's rocks the core very
Steph VanHaverbeke: core of your foundation of your relationship. But
Steph VanHaverbeke: in a broader sense, you know, within my family, with my
Steph VanHaverbeke: coworkers, my, you know, my clients. Yeah.
Steph VanHaverbeke: It was very, they welcomed it almost.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And yeah, that's, that's I don't say that this is the experience
Steph VanHaverbeke: for everyone in Belgium, but I built my life
Steph VanHaverbeke: already in such a way that I surrounded
Steph VanHaverbeke: myself with people and also what
Steph VanHaverbeke: I do as a profession in a way that people would just, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: that there wouldn't be any resistance to the to the to that
Steph VanHaverbeke: change, to my transition. What was the biggest thing that surprised
Joanne Lockwood: you around your transition? Yeah, that's a good question. Well,
Steph VanHaverbeke: the person who had the most trouble with all this in my life
Steph VanHaverbeke: is me. Yeah. It took a long
Steph VanHaverbeke: time before I made before I decided,
Steph VanHaverbeke: you know, I have to do something about this. That took a long
Steph VanHaverbeke: time. Of course, you know, I'm 55 years old
Steph VanHaverbeke: now. Meaning 50 you know, about 50 years
Steph VanHaverbeke: ago, there wasn't much about gender.
Steph VanHaverbeke: You know, that wasn't something people thought about.
Steph VanHaverbeke: You know, it's just you're born in a certain way. You are,
Steph VanHaverbeke: therefore, a girl or a boy. You know?
Steph VanHaverbeke: And there was no awareness around it or on that topic.
Steph VanHaverbeke: At least not in my family. Yeah.
Steph VanHaverbeke: So, I could I can imagine when I if I would have been born
Steph VanHaverbeke: now, things my wife would be a whole lot different. But in
Joanne Lockwood: your coaching, you do
Joanne Lockwood: now with working with individuals and organizations,
Joanne Lockwood: what insights do you think that your your gender
Joanne Lockwood: transition has had in your, your
Joanne Lockwood: insights you help people with? It allows me
Steph VanHaverbeke: to be more empathic. As I said, you know, the first person I had to
Steph VanHaverbeke: deal with with how my whole transition was myself. I was the first
Steph VanHaverbeke: person who needed to accept this, that this was a reality. And so
Steph VanHaverbeke: now I'm I'm very more aware when
Steph VanHaverbeke: people come with whatever issues that they have.
Steph VanHaverbeke: I'm I'm much more able to put myself in the other
Steph VanHaverbeke: shoes. And, I have a
Steph VanHaverbeke: real sense of, you know, what what is going on. And, of course,
Steph VanHaverbeke: I'm not only able to be more empathic, but also
Steph VanHaverbeke: more authentic. And I can can truly speak from my heart
Steph VanHaverbeke: now. Whereas before the I I always had this
Steph VanHaverbeke: kind of a shield, you know, you project you project a
Steph VanHaverbeke: persona to the outside, which is inauthentic, and it it's it
Steph VanHaverbeke: felt also always felt wrong. So I'm
Joanne Lockwood: it may be expected outcome strategy or mantra, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like. We, as humans, we kind of we have
Joanne Lockwood: our biases, we have our preconceived ideas, and we bring all this baggage
Joanne Lockwood: with us, don't we, with these outcomes? How do you work with
Joanne Lockwood: people to get into, if you like, let go of the baggage
Joanne Lockwood: and and start to see possibilities. Yeah. There's there's difference
Steph VanHaverbeke: between baggage and luggage. So I like to have some luggage with me,
Steph VanHaverbeke: but not the baggage. And this is how I also you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: this is my frame when when people come with me with with whatever
Steph VanHaverbeke: baggage they have and it's it's like, what is in there
Steph VanHaverbeke: that could be transformed into something
Steph VanHaverbeke: else that would be useful for you? But what I found
Steph VanHaverbeke: is that the greatest hurdles that people deal with in
Steph VanHaverbeke: those experiences lies
Steph VanHaverbeke: the the root of the solution. Like like we just
Steph VanHaverbeke: said, because of COVID, I had all these troubles. But also because of
Steph VanHaverbeke: COVID, it created this opportunity for me to
Steph VanHaverbeke: to look at the world in a different way and to experience something
Steph VanHaverbeke: that maybe otherwise I would have never experienced. So
Steph VanHaverbeke: there's always, you know, there's there's this coin that has two sides. So
Steph VanHaverbeke: what I what I do is when I have a coaching
Steph VanHaverbeke: client, and not only asking questions,
Steph VanHaverbeke: you know, what are your goals and what are your resources and blah blah
Steph VanHaverbeke: blah, but it's like a journey. I look at
Steph VanHaverbeke: it as a journey and an exploration where people
Steph VanHaverbeke: can discover parts within them that
Steph VanHaverbeke: maybe they would have rejected somehow in the past,
Steph VanHaverbeke: but now are able to give it a
Steph VanHaverbeke: place and see it as a resource.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And maybe I I'll give an example. Someone just
Steph VanHaverbeke: said, you know, I'm, I'm having trouble relaxing.
Steph VanHaverbeke: I'm I'm always, in my mind, busy, busy, busy, busy.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And I find it very hard to create the mental
Steph VanHaverbeke: space that I need to feel at ease, to, yeah,
Steph VanHaverbeke: be myself, actually. And so what I what we
Steph VanHaverbeke: did, we we did a little exercise, and it's kind of
Steph VanHaverbeke: an it's kind of a
Steph VanHaverbeke: imaginary journey that you make in your own landscape.
Steph VanHaverbeke: It's called mindscaping. And during that
Steph VanHaverbeke: exercise, which is a guided meditation slash
Steph VanHaverbeke: hypnosis. It's a bit of both, and it's very
Steph VanHaverbeke: metaphorical. It's kind of a guided dream
Steph VanHaverbeke: almost. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: and then there was this girl that came to her
Steph VanHaverbeke: and, she says, she's perfection.
Steph VanHaverbeke: This girl is perfection. And she
Steph VanHaverbeke: offers me a flower. And the moment she got that
Steph VanHaverbeke: flower, she burst into tears and she said, okay, I see the beauty
Steph VanHaverbeke: of it, but I also see that the flower is cut.
Steph VanHaverbeke: So even though the flower is perfect, it is not
Steph VanHaverbeke: perfect. So this is whole duality there. And that
Steph VanHaverbeke: changed the way she looks at the world now.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And now she's able to see that
Steph VanHaverbeke: perfection. You know, it
Steph VanHaverbeke: is elusive. It is something that you can
Steph VanHaverbeke: appreciate and you can strive for. But at the
Steph VanHaverbeke: same time, you know, perfection is also something
Steph VanHaverbeke: you can let go. And it is yeah. They often
Joanne Lockwood: say that perfection is the enemy of progress, because we're so busy
Joanne Lockwood: trying to get everything completely right, completely
Joanne Lockwood: okay. And sometimes good enough is good enough, isn't it? It
Steph VanHaverbeke: is. It is. And, just
Steph VanHaverbeke: last weekend, I, facilitated a
Steph VanHaverbeke: conference for visual practitioners, which
Steph VanHaverbeke: are people who are helping organizations to, you
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, solve problems, be more creative, brainstorm,
Steph VanHaverbeke: teach, and all these kind of things. So I was facilitating
Steph VanHaverbeke: this and, people had to draw on big, big, big sheets of
Steph VanHaverbeke: paper, you know, what their intention was for the day,
Steph VanHaverbeke: for themselves, for each other, and so on.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And so as we were as a group with about 40
Steph VanHaverbeke: people, drawing on a big sheet of paper about
Steph VanHaverbeke: 10 meters wide with all kinds of colors and making
Steph VanHaverbeke: drawings and putting on some slogans and whatever.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And and one of the one of the participants came up to me and she
Steph VanHaverbeke: said, you know, this is so amazing and so beautiful. It
Steph VanHaverbeke: it is something to, wow, to to really hold on
Steph VanHaverbeke: to. And she said, you know, what else? What is going to happen with this
Steph VanHaverbeke: piece of this big sheet of paper after the conference?
Steph VanHaverbeke: And I said, you know, I I look at it as a as a
Steph VanHaverbeke: mandala. It only exists here and now
Steph VanHaverbeke: in this moment. And it exists for you, and
Steph VanHaverbeke: it will still exist afterwards in your hearts because
Steph VanHaverbeke: you have experienced it. But after this, the paper will be
Steph VanHaverbeke: gone. You know, we will tear it up and put it in a
Steph VanHaverbeke: bin. And she said, that's, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: she had some struggles with that idea, but it is beautiful. It
Steph VanHaverbeke: is beautiful. Yeah. Because You said just now
Joanne Lockwood: that you've it's different between luggage and
Joanne Lockwood: baggage. I I thought that was a really good analogy there, where we
Joanne Lockwood: often fill up with carrying around baggage. So what we need to do
Joanne Lockwood: is we need to unpack all of our baggage
Joanne Lockwood: and extract the valuable parts, the luggage.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And jettison those baggage elements.
Joanne Lockwood: So we're traveling lighter with stuff we need,
Joanne Lockwood: not bogged down with everything we don't need.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Indeed. Indeed. And just to reflect for the listener also, just
Steph VanHaverbeke: just ask yourself this question, what is holding me back? What,
Steph VanHaverbeke: what do I keep dragging behind me? Like
Steph VanHaverbeke: every day that I maybe don't need? Or maybe
Steph VanHaverbeke: there's something in there that is of real value. Just when I look at
Steph VanHaverbeke: it in a different way and it becomes lighter and it becomes something that is
Steph VanHaverbeke: useful for you. And it's not holding you back. Most of the change we
Joanne Lockwood: actually need within ourselves, isn't it? It's, you said earlier, what
Joanne Lockwood: was the biggest surprise? What was the biggest barrier? Yourself holding yourself back. And what
Joanne Lockwood: we find is we become our own limiting belief, our own perfectionist,
Joanne Lockwood: or we could become constrained by our own
Joanne Lockwood: beliefs, don't we? And that's what we need to unlock sometimes. Because if we
Joanne Lockwood: don't take a step forward, we'll always stand still. And it's a ton of work
Joanne Lockwood: out to find that bravery or that or realize that we're more
Joanne Lockwood: uncomfortable by being where we are than we would be by moving forward.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Indeed. For instance, for me, I've always felt that,
Steph VanHaverbeke: when I was, when I was before my transition, I had to
Steph VanHaverbeke: prove myself. I always had the sense, you know, I have
Steph VanHaverbeke: to prove myself that I am a
Steph VanHaverbeke: man. I found that very hard, by the way.
Steph VanHaverbeke: It took a lot of energy from me because it was it didn't
Steph VanHaverbeke: feel natural for obvious reasons.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And, and once I let go of
Steph VanHaverbeke: that, it transformed me. And I now I
Steph VanHaverbeke: feel free. I feel a lot lighter. I feel a lot more
Steph VanHaverbeke: comfortable. And I couldn't really be myself in
Steph VanHaverbeke: front of a whole group. Whereas before, I
Steph VanHaverbeke: always felt like I had to put on an act. And that is, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: that, that what that part of me was, was the baggage.
Steph VanHaverbeke: But, but it also had the roots. Because, because
Steph VanHaverbeke: it's brought me on this journey to really explore
Steph VanHaverbeke: and investigate and find out what was going
Steph VanHaverbeke: on and to learn a whole lot about how the brain works,
Steph VanHaverbeke: about psychology, even though I'm not a psychologist.
Steph VanHaverbeke: But, you know, and I pushed myself, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: learning and teaching about this, you know, in front of
Steph VanHaverbeke: groups of people as a trainer and as a coach. And this
Steph VanHaverbeke: really enabled me to to let go of a lot of things, but
Steph VanHaverbeke: also to transform and reintegrate some parts of,
Steph VanHaverbeke: you know, not only the science and the knowledge that we have
Steph VanHaverbeke: about, you know, what it means to be human and, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: and about gender and all these things. But it also helped me to
Steph VanHaverbeke: to integrate on a on a deep, deep, deep
Steph VanHaverbeke: level the experience that I
Steph VanHaverbeke: had. I wouldn't be the person that I am today without that
Steph VanHaverbeke: experience. It is the foundation of my confidence today. So I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, I think it's fair to say that many people
Joanne Lockwood: don't understand about being trans, gender,
Joanne Lockwood: non binary, or having a gender identity that is not
Joanne Lockwood: as aligned that you were given at birth. So you said
Joanne Lockwood: just now that you spent many, many years of your life trying to
Joanne Lockwood: prove to the world you were a man, and you found that exhausting,
Joanne Lockwood: tiring, and something that was making you feel uncomfortable.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you now find the challenge is having to explain what
Joanne Lockwood: being trans for transgender means and having to maybe
Joanne Lockwood: justify yourself as a woman to certain people? You definitely
Steph VanHaverbeke: don't have the sense that I have to justify anything. No, no,
Steph VanHaverbeke: no. That's that's not the case. I had to
Steph VanHaverbeke: justify before my transition. I don't have to justify
Steph VanHaverbeke: anything now. So no. No. The it's it's
Steph VanHaverbeke: it's it set me free. And now I I am
Steph VanHaverbeke: able to really let me tell you with a concrete example. A
Steph VanHaverbeke: few days ago with with with somebody, he was, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: a good friend of mine. We were walking in the city. We had to pick
Steph VanHaverbeke: up some things. He had to go to the printer to pick up some, you
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, yeah, some orders that he made. And when
Steph VanHaverbeke: he was in the print shop, the owner of the print shop came in and
Steph VanHaverbeke: said, hi Karl, how are you doing? And blah, blah, blah. And then, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: they're making jokes and, you know, going in this typical
Steph VanHaverbeke: male bonding things that I never
Steph VanHaverbeke: understood. You know, I cannot grasp what that is.
Steph VanHaverbeke: But now that I that I've transitioned and I am truly
Steph VanHaverbeke: who I am, I can connect with people in such a better
Steph VanHaverbeke: way. It goes way easier. It goes
Steph VanHaverbeke: directly. There are no walls anymore. So
Steph VanHaverbeke: there's no need to justify anything. Whereas,
Steph VanHaverbeke: yeah, that's See, you just
Joanne Lockwood: are. There's no there's no kind of
Joanne Lockwood: discussion here. In the same way, I'm just a woman. You're just a woman. We
Joanne Lockwood: just are. We don't feel the need to prove that. To make it
Steph VanHaverbeke: very blunt, if somebody would come up to me and challenge
Steph VanHaverbeke: me on this, I would challenge the other person also on
Steph VanHaverbeke: their identity. You know, it's the same
Steph VanHaverbeke: thing. You don't challenge anybody on their you
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, on parts of their identity. You cannot have any judgment
Steph VanHaverbeke: about that. You mentioned some you're not a psychologist,
Joanne Lockwood: but you did some working on understanding the brain
Joanne Lockwood: and the, its
Joanne Lockwood: perception of the world. Do you wanna give me a little bit more background of
Joanne Lockwood: of what you uncovered when you were going through that? Well, what I found
Steph VanHaverbeke: particularly interesting is, of course, you know, what are the
Steph VanHaverbeke: differences between male female brains? Is there any
Steph VanHaverbeke: science to really back this up? And, yeah,
Steph VanHaverbeke: what I found is basically there isn't really.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Meaning that the brain changes as we grow
Steph VanHaverbeke: older. Of course, there's
Steph VanHaverbeke: different processes, you know, the brain only becomes adult
Steph VanHaverbeke: when we are about 25 and the brain doesn't
Steph VanHaverbeke: deteriorate, like, in a sense that
Steph VanHaverbeke: an older person could have a brain as
Steph VanHaverbeke: healthy as 25 year old.
Steph VanHaverbeke: If you do particular activities that keep your brain healthy.
Steph VanHaverbeke: But in a natural flow of things, of course, the brain
Steph VanHaverbeke: changes over time. Things become harder to
Steph VanHaverbeke: remember and all these things. So the difference between
Steph VanHaverbeke: a brain of a 4 year old and a 94
Steph VanHaverbeke: year old are far greater than, of course, the
Steph VanHaverbeke: brain between a man and a woman. And, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: and even saying that, of course, there are some differences that will be about
Steph VanHaverbeke: the size and about, you know, the but you
Steph VanHaverbeke: cannot generalize. I was during the conference, I'm from
Steph VanHaverbeke: Belgium and there were people there from Norway,
Steph VanHaverbeke: Sweden and Holland. I don't know if you ever
Steph VanHaverbeke: looked at those people, but they are my neck still
Steph VanHaverbeke: hurts because I had to look up the whole time. But they are
Steph VanHaverbeke: even the women are, you know, they are they have a lot more stature than
Steph VanHaverbeke: I have. So it's not about size. It's not about,
Steph VanHaverbeke: you know, particular parts of the brain. It is more how
Steph VanHaverbeke: we use our brain that makes the difference.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Yeah. And so there's there's
Steph VanHaverbeke: also some culture involved, nature and nurture.
Steph VanHaverbeke: But what I found was that the way I used,
Steph VanHaverbeke: I've used my brain my whole life is typical for
Steph VanHaverbeke: a woman. The things that I was interested in, the things that I
Steph VanHaverbeke: that caught my attention, the things that I you know, even though I
Steph VanHaverbeke: do like Star Wars. But I've also found that a lot of women like
Steph VanHaverbeke: Star Wars. So I'm not the exception here. So we have all
Steph VanHaverbeke: these preconceptions about, you know, male female,
Steph VanHaverbeke: about male female bodies, how they should look, how they should
Steph VanHaverbeke: be, about our brains, how they should work, how they shouldn't work, and so
Steph VanHaverbeke: on and so on. But basically, the
Steph VanHaverbeke: template is human and gender is a spectrum. You can
Steph VanHaverbeke: believe it or not, but it's science. And,
Steph VanHaverbeke: yeah, just, you know, where are you on the
Steph VanHaverbeke: gender spectrum? And for me, I found that being in the male
Steph VanHaverbeke: part of the gender spectrum didn't work for me. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The whole concept of gender
Joanne Lockwood: and roles and what you should like, what you shouldn't like is it's all a
Joanne Lockwood: social construct. We've we've made this stuff up. We made it up.
Joanne Lockwood: We've decided we've decided we we give
Joanne Lockwood: labels to things like that's a that's a man's thing, that's a woman's thing, that's
Joanne Lockwood: a men should like this, women should like that. That's a man's toilet, that's a
Joanne Lockwood: woman's toilet. We invented this stuff in the
Joanne Lockwood: 20th 21st century. Most of the stuff before that was role based, based on
Joanne Lockwood: what you were trying to do. And society has kind of enforced these rules
Joanne Lockwood: without any, well, as a blanket approach, without any real
Joanne Lockwood: understanding about what, how people see themselves in the
Joanne Lockwood: world? Yeah, that's true. Actually, a lot
Steph VanHaverbeke: of the constructs that
Steph VanHaverbeke: we hold as self evident are
Steph VanHaverbeke: very recent. Victorian age was
Steph VanHaverbeke: an age where a lot of the social norms that
Steph VanHaverbeke: we adhere to today, you know, they
Steph VanHaverbeke: not originated, but they became like the norm.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And, you know, that's that's also something, you know, being a
Steph VanHaverbeke: transgender woman and having walked that journey,
Steph VanHaverbeke: I'm much actually, I consider myself in a
Steph VanHaverbeke: privileged place because I can see
Steph VanHaverbeke: certain frames that are just non
Steph VanHaverbeke: existent, that a lot of people believe about the
Steph VanHaverbeke: world that are simply not true. So, yeah,
Steph VanHaverbeke: I like to think outside the box. Yeah. No, I
Joanne Lockwood: agree. And I think, again, going back to your experience of doing
Joanne Lockwood: a diversion halfway through your
Joanne Lockwood: life or 3 quarters away through your life, wherever you want to look at it,
Joanne Lockwood: that you are able to put down the baggage, as you say, and and and
Joanne Lockwood: pick the path that works best for you. Going forward, what
Joanne Lockwood: do you believe is is kind of the future for you and
Joanne Lockwood: the world and the people you help? I
Steph VanHaverbeke: think we'll we'll we'll come into a time of
Steph VanHaverbeke: of particular challenges. We have the rise of AI.
Steph VanHaverbeke: I mean, if you're just, you know, seeing the first the first,
Steph VanHaverbeke: first emergence of that, even though AI is is much older than what
Steph VanHaverbeke: than many people realize. But it will change the way we
Steph VanHaverbeke: work profoundly. And it will put into
Steph VanHaverbeke: question what makes us human and what makes
Steph VanHaverbeke: us intelligent. You know, there will be a whole lot of
Steph VanHaverbeke: philosophical ideas floating around about that
Steph VanHaverbeke: one. But also for many people, they will also have
Steph VanHaverbeke: to transition, in
Steph VanHaverbeke: a certain way and and society as
Steph VanHaverbeke: well. So we we we face particular challenges. It's
Steph VanHaverbeke: not I who's saying that. It's everybody who's who's working in
Steph VanHaverbeke: that area sees that. And I think that
Steph VanHaverbeke: my contribution being here on this planet today is
Steph VanHaverbeke: to share some of my experiences and to also to teach people some
Steph VanHaverbeke: of the principles and techniques, how to
Steph VanHaverbeke: really leverage human intelligence and remind
Steph VanHaverbeke: that, you know, we are not robots. We are
Steph VanHaverbeke: different from the AI and the bots. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: if you have a tedious task to do today, go to
Steph VanHaverbeke: chatgptorclod and make use of AI and use it in
Steph VanHaverbeke: a smart way. But also when you are
Steph VanHaverbeke: with people together, the stupidest thing you
Steph VanHaverbeke: can do is to listen to one person and say,
Steph VanHaverbeke: okay, he should be he's right probably or she's right probably
Steph VanHaverbeke: or whatever, and not challenge that. We are here
Steph VanHaverbeke: today alive because we are
Steph VanHaverbeke: able to communicate, to invent,
Steph VanHaverbeke: to create, and also to think critically.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And that is something that is a skill
Steph VanHaverbeke: that should be taught from kindergarten upwards.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Think critically. When you hear a politician in Belgium, they had
Steph VanHaverbeke: elections together with European elections. So before the summer or that
Steph VanHaverbeke: beginning of the summer, we still don't have a
Steph VanHaverbeke: government. And what these people show is profound lack
Steph VanHaverbeke: of leadership. They are
Steph VanHaverbeke: bickering, they are discussing about topics
Steph VanHaverbeke: that really don't matter and they are not able to come to an
Steph VanHaverbeke: agreement. That is, that is, that is not leadership. That is stupidity.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And that's plain and simple. So we need to be
Steph VanHaverbeke: very careful about what we believe
Steph VanHaverbeke: about the world, what we do with our, you know, with our
Steph VanHaverbeke: lives and how we spend our days. And I'm
Steph VanHaverbeke: here as the advocate. Spend your days wisely and
Steph VanHaverbeke: do things that, you know, give you energy,
Steph VanHaverbeke: that set you free, make you look to the to the
Steph VanHaverbeke: world in a different way. But that's that helps you and
Steph VanHaverbeke: the people around you.
Steph VanHaverbeke: It's plain and simple. Should we be scared about AI? I mean, it's
Joanne Lockwood: we talk about masculine, feminine, non binary, and AI truly is
Joanne Lockwood: an is an it. It has no gender identity or
Joanne Lockwood: concept of self. It is it's making stuff up based on patterns of other
Joanne Lockwood: of old information. Yeah. Yeah. It has no identity.
Steph VanHaverbeke: We we give it identity, but it has no identity. It still is
Steph VanHaverbeke: a machine. Maybe someday, I don't know, but
Steph VanHaverbeke: definitely not for the foreseeable future. But
Steph VanHaverbeke: it it has all the it resembles someone
Steph VanHaverbeke: who has identity and personality and all these
Steph VanHaverbeke: things, but it's not. So will it change the
Steph VanHaverbeke: way we work? Most definitely. Will it take away jobs? Yes,
Steph VanHaverbeke: of course. Will it create new jobs? Definitely.
Steph VanHaverbeke: So the question is not, will I be without a job because of
Steph VanHaverbeke: AI? No. No. The question is, how can you use that new
Steph VanHaverbeke: tool to make your job better or to make your life better?
Steph VanHaverbeke: So start using it. That's but in a smart
Steph VanHaverbeke: way. And and don't forget, you you are not a robot. You are you are
Steph VanHaverbeke: not a machine. You're a human being. So be smart.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, that that's my view of AI. I'm a great believer in using
Joanne Lockwood: it as a an assistant, a tool, automation,
Joanne Lockwood: light for heavy lift. Fundamentally, at this current time, as
Joanne Lockwood: we say, December 2024, it doesn't have a soul. It doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: have a conscience. It doesn't have feelings or
Joanne Lockwood: empathy or love. Any parameters and patterns.
Joanne Lockwood: And you can often tell the difference between an AI generated
Joanne Lockwood: picture or content, unless it's been heavily
Joanne Lockwood: crafted by someone who gives it and injects it, a personality and
Joanne Lockwood: soul, it can appear very empty and heart without
Joanne Lockwood: without a center, without a heart. Yeah. So
Steph VanHaverbeke: but for so we face this, this
Steph VanHaverbeke: huge change as a society. It will be very
Steph VanHaverbeke: profound and we will start to feel the the thing is, a few
Steph VanHaverbeke: weeks ago, I, I was giving this
Steph VanHaverbeke: presentation about the impact of AI. Somebody from the audience asked, you
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, in our company, there's a discussion. Should we implement
Steph VanHaverbeke: start to implement AI? What is your take on that? And
Steph VanHaverbeke: and I said, well, you're asking the wrong the wrong
Steph VanHaverbeke: question. Oh, it's not about should we.
Steph VanHaverbeke: It's not even about about, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: how or when. It
Steph VanHaverbeke: is, you know, what can AI do for us
Steph VanHaverbeke: today? And when you look at AI, what it
Steph VanHaverbeke: can do? The answer is obvious. It can help you. It can
Steph VanHaverbeke: serve you in in in in amazing ways
Steph VanHaverbeke: to boost your productivity, to really set your people
Steph VanHaverbeke: free. And I will give you a small example. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: and one of the organizations that I that I, that
Steph VanHaverbeke: I'm working with, they started to implement AI to they have
Steph VanHaverbeke: offers coming in and documents in various formats,
Steph VanHaverbeke: PDF, you know, and they have to OCR it and and all that these
Steph VanHaverbeke: things. And it's still a quite a
Steph VanHaverbeke: manual job because because of the different formats. They started to
Steph VanHaverbeke: use AI for that and create a workflow. And now it goes
Steph VanHaverbeke: on automatically. And and the role of the people from
Steph VanHaverbeke: the from the department changed from processing
Steph VanHaverbeke: data to building clients' relationships,
Steph VanHaverbeke: which AI cannot do. Yeah.
Steph VanHaverbeke: So it's obvious. Will it change? In a sense, it will make it
Steph VanHaverbeke: more human. It's only if we choose to.
Steph VanHaverbeke: So If we look back at human history, you know, we we we go out,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know, 30, 4000 years, about the time
Joanne Lockwood: where Homo sapiens became the dominant human species
Joanne Lockwood: beyond the the the andetholes and the other variants of human
Joanne Lockwood: evolution. We were living of the moment. We
Joanne Lockwood: didn't we we were we were hungry. We'd catch something. We'd eat it.
Joanne Lockwood: And then we mechanised. We created agriculture. We started
Joanne Lockwood: keeping animals as livestock, as
Joanne Lockwood: food for the future. We started planting
Joanne Lockwood: plants and cultivating. We took control over our
Joanne Lockwood: destiny by not having to live at the moment. And, of course, we
Joanne Lockwood: industrial revolution, mechanising boats, ships, airplanes,
Joanne Lockwood: tools, engines, petrol, etcetera. We've
Joanne Lockwood: we've we've created all these things over time. AI is just another
Joanne Lockwood: evolution of a tool along with computing and other other devices,
Joanne Lockwood: mobile phones, Internet, satellites, GPS, is
Joanne Lockwood: another tool that will displace existing
Joanne Lockwood: methods and technology and work and replace it with
Joanne Lockwood: different paradigms. It? Of course. You know, like, let's
Steph VanHaverbeke: make an analogy. Before we had washing machines,
Steph VanHaverbeke: women had to spend hours, you know, rubbing clothes
Steph VanHaverbeke: in fresh water with soap with their hands in order to clean
Steph VanHaverbeke: the clothes. Because of the washing machine,
Steph VanHaverbeke: women were set free. And it seems like
Steph VanHaverbeke: what? Yeah. But my mother, when she was
Steph VanHaverbeke: young,
Steph VanHaverbeke: roads parts. You know? I still see people in many parts of the
Joanne Lockwood: world who have to walk for half a day to collect water and walk half
Joanne Lockwood: a day back again with the water. Yeah. Irrigation, sanitation.
Steph VanHaverbeke: So, yeah. So technology service, of course. Can
Steph VanHaverbeke: technology used to be used against us? Most definitely.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Yeah. Like everything. You know, a tool for
Steph VanHaverbeke: chopping wood can be used to kill somebody. So we have to be very
Steph VanHaverbeke: smart about this tool and really think about, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: how we will use it to benefit us and to reflect
Steph VanHaverbeke: also on, you know, what does that mean for us as
Steph VanHaverbeke: humans? The way we work, the way we earn money, it will
Steph VanHaverbeke: be it will be different. You can see that
Steph VanHaverbeke: already happening. So it's
Joanne Lockwood: exciting. I'm excited by it. It's one of the few things I think,
Joanne Lockwood: if only I was 20 again. The the technological
Joanne Lockwood: leaps and bounds that are occurring right now in the world, I wanna I
Joanne Lockwood: wanna another 50 years of this. I mean, I'm I'm a bit older than you,
Joanne Lockwood: not much. I'm thinking, hang on a bit. By the time this gets really exciting,
Joanne Lockwood: I'll be in my seventies. I wanna I wanna another go. I wanna go around
Joanne Lockwood: again. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's
Steph VanHaverbeke: life is a mandala. We as a species,
Joanne Lockwood: as a society, as a family, we're we're growing and evolving all the time. And
Joanne Lockwood: I guess, you know, if I if I had my life again, I'd be wanting
Joanne Lockwood: the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Like, you're you're a
Steph VanHaverbeke: podcaster. Could you have could you have
Steph VanHaverbeke: imagined, like, 5 years ago or maybe 10 years ago, it didn't
Steph VanHaverbeke: exist? No. And the the ease, you know, I I we're using a
Joanne Lockwood: platform now called Riverside, which has AI technology. It helps
Joanne Lockwood: produce show notes. It will clean the audio up, take the clicks and knocks out
Joanne Lockwood: of it. And when I first started this, I was going into tools and I
Joanne Lockwood: have to clean up the audio myself. I'd have to hire someone to read
Joanne Lockwood: through or listen listen to the episode,
Joanne Lockwood: transcribe it for me semi manually. And, yeah, I can
Joanne Lockwood: turn a show around now in 20 minutes, half an hour, whereas it would take
Joanne Lockwood: me half a day before. So huge leaps about.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's making the podcasting accessible. I can also generate
Joanne Lockwood: assets for YouTube and bouncing audiograms and other things.
Joanne Lockwood: When this episode goes out, you'll be able to access this on YouTube with a
Joanne Lockwood: bouncing audiogram as well. So, yeah, lots and lots of tools out there. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I'm excited for the for that part of the future. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm less less excited about some of the other trouble we've got in
Joanne Lockwood: the world, you know, the the rise of the conflicts that are developing
Joanne Lockwood: between certain parts of east as
Joanne Lockwood: versus certain parts of the west. And there's some north south issues.
Joanne Lockwood: There's poverty, there's eco climate change,
Joanne Lockwood: extremist views dominating the world, fueled by social
Joanne Lockwood: media, by media bias. And you think, well, hang on a minute, we're
Joanne Lockwood: creating a more enlightened society, but with all these
Joanne Lockwood: flashpoints, all these triggers that are there. Yeah. Yeah.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Well, I like I like to see myself as someone who has a
Steph VanHaverbeke: positive impact on people. And
Steph VanHaverbeke: that's why that's why I teach, I coach, I talk.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And people you know, for me, it's all about a human connection. You
Steph VanHaverbeke: know? In essence, it's about, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: us and, you know, what you what we are doing here on this
Steph VanHaverbeke: planet. And my small contribution to that is every time I
Steph VanHaverbeke: see somebody struggling with something, to maybe open a
Steph VanHaverbeke: door in in their metaphorically in their minds where they
Steph VanHaverbeke: can see a new path, something else that they hadn't
Steph VanHaverbeke: seen before. And 1 by 1, person by person,
Steph VanHaverbeke: if I can see that's happening, that that
Steph VanHaverbeke: gives me a sense of purpose. For me, I'm 55 years old. I'm here
Steph VanHaverbeke: to prepare the next generation. So the people usually who come to
Steph VanHaverbeke: my training courses are late 20 until
Steph VanHaverbeke: early 40, usually. So these
Steph VanHaverbeke: people have to do it for the moment. They have to they have to pick
Steph VanHaverbeke: up those tools. They have to pick up those skills as well. They
Steph VanHaverbeke: have to be they do things differently
Steph VanHaverbeke: than their predecessors. And they have also to be able to
Steph VanHaverbeke: challenge their predecessors, even if they are their bosses.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And it's a bold statement, but it is necessary. We're
Joanne Lockwood: going to give our listener
Joanne Lockwood: some advice. What is the one top tip you'd like to leave them with
Joanne Lockwood: as a result of our conversation today? The top tip based on
Steph VanHaverbeke: what we discussed is think
Steph VanHaverbeke: again. When you hear something, when you
Steph VanHaverbeke: see something, really do the research, make sure
Steph VanHaverbeke: that you make wise decisions. Be
Steph VanHaverbeke: knowledgeable. You know, you hear sometimes people say, you know,
Steph VanHaverbeke: things are not what they seem to be. And then, you know, this is a
Steph VanHaverbeke: whole conspiracy. Well, there is a conspiracy,
Steph VanHaverbeke: and this conspiracy only lives inside your head. You
Steph VanHaverbeke: know, the conspiracy is we are the system, and we can
Steph VanHaverbeke: change it. And so you can change it. So the
Steph VanHaverbeke: so think again, be smart, be knowledgeable. Believe
Joanne Lockwood: everything you hear and see, because it's a deep fake
Joanne Lockwood: with media bias, with people's bias. Yeah. You're right. We've
Joanne Lockwood: got a challenge why people are trying to say something or what they're
Joanne Lockwood: really trying to tell us. Yeah. Excellent. News news is a product.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Or if it or you're the product, so I'm trying to sell to you.
Steph VanHaverbeke: Sometimes you are the product. Yes. Completely. Yeah. So
Steph VanHaverbeke: be How do people get a hold of you, Steff? If you want to track
Joanne Lockwood: you down, what's the best way to get a hold of you? Well, I've had
Steph VanHaverbeke: I have this very, very, very tiny, tiny, tiny website with only
Steph VanHaverbeke: one page on it, and it's coachsteff.life, and that's
Steph VanHaverbeke: Steff with double f. So coachsteff.life.
Steph VanHaverbeke: And there you find all the all the inroads to what I
Steph VanHaverbeke: do and where where you can see me or find me or reach me. I
Joanne Lockwood: just clicked on that link now. Let's have a quick look. Yep. It's
Joanne Lockwood: coachsteff.live. Blue background. There's a picture of you in the
Joanne Lockwood: middle. And, you got you got some
Joanne Lockwood: audio books on there. Is that, you got a free book of you? Yeah?
Steph VanHaverbeke: Yeah. Yeah. So I got some books there. And and also I would
Steph VanHaverbeke: like to offer, based on our discussion, I will create,
Steph VanHaverbeke: a small guided meditation like we
Steph VanHaverbeke: discussed. Yeah. Kind of a
Steph VanHaverbeke: a guided dream that will help your listeners, so you
Steph VanHaverbeke: as a listener, to open your minds and to,
Steph VanHaverbeke: to get smarter. So I I'll put that together, and, I will put it on
Steph VanHaverbeke: the link. So coachsteff.life/inclusionbites.
Joanne Lockwood: I'll put that in the show notes as well so that, we can signpost
Joanne Lockwood: it easily for people who have not quite got to the end of the
Joanne Lockwood: podcast. Maybe they've nipped off for coffee halfway through and forgot to
Joanne Lockwood: forgot to press play again. Who could do that? Yeah. Or
Steph VanHaverbeke: whatever. Or it's side tracked. It's been an
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely fascinating conversation, Steff. I've really enjoyed meeting you, getting to know you, and
Joanne Lockwood: hearing some of your thoughts about the world. And it's, a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: what you're saying resonates deeply with some of the things that I went through
Joanne Lockwood: when I gender transition coming up for 10 years ago, and
Joanne Lockwood: the the challenges I have with my wife, my children, and my work, and
Joanne Lockwood: my colleagues and things. Yeah. The world's
Joanne Lockwood: changed in the last 10 years. Some of it for the better. Some of
Joanne Lockwood: it, I'm not going to say for the worst. It's just different. Just
Joanne Lockwood: different. It's a different colour. That's what I'm going to say to
Joanne Lockwood: Near the brown, but it's the the sunny. But, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, it's different. Thank you. That's that's it's been absolutely fascinating. So,
Joanne Lockwood: thank you for listening in this far.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for
Joanne Lockwood: lending your ear and heart to the cause of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord.
Joanne Lockwood: Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites, and become part of
Joanne Lockwood: our ever growing community, driving real change.
Joanne Lockwood: Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify
Joanne Lockwood: the voices that matter. Got thoughts,
Joanne Lockwood: stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears.
Joanne Lockwood: Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world,
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.