WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:18.705 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.705 --> 00:00:22.405 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.105 --> 00:00:26.625 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where 6 00:00:26.625 --> 00:00:30.050 everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're 7 00:00:30.050 --> 00:00:33.649 not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.649 --> 00:00:37.250 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.250 --> 00:00:41.090 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:44.905 in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:44.905 --> 00:00:48.665 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.665 --> 00:00:52.425 inspire action together. Don't forget, you 13 00:00:52.425 --> 00:00:55.385 can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.385 --> 00:00:57.140 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.739 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.440 --> 00:01:07.200 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.755 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.815 --> 00:01:16.995 Today is episode 142 19 00:01:18.735 --> 00:01:22.495 with the title, Empowering Belonging. And I 20 00:01:22.495 --> 00:01:26.219 have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Alisa de Vere. 21 00:01:26.679 --> 00:01:30.140 Alisa is a confidence expert, a leader 22 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.280 of the ERG Alliance that equips organisations with 23 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:37.579 the tools and brain science to create sustainable, 24 00:01:37.880 --> 00:01:41.715 inclusive, and impactful employee resource group. And 25 00:01:41.715 --> 00:01:45.555 I asked Alyssa to describe a superpower. She said that it is helping 26 00:01:45.555 --> 00:01:49.255 people feel confident and valued by creating spaces 27 00:01:49.315 --> 00:01:52.930 where everyone belongs. Hello, Alissa. Welcome to the 28 00:01:52.930 --> 00:01:56.690 show. Jo, I'm so excited to be here. I can't imagine a more 29 00:01:56.690 --> 00:02:00.370 perfect conversation for today. No. 30 00:02:00.370 --> 00:02:04.150 And we met, I suppose, coming up from a month ago. It was actually, 31 00:02:04.405 --> 00:02:07.765 to put a date stamp on it, it was the day after the, 32 00:02:08.165 --> 00:02:11.765 US presidential elections where the news of the result was just 33 00:02:11.765 --> 00:02:15.525 filtering through. Wasn't it? It was. And I was so glad to be with you 34 00:02:15.525 --> 00:02:18.885 and not in Boston where I am right now because I tell you that 35 00:02:18.885 --> 00:02:22.690 was a tough day. Yeah. So 36 00:02:22.690 --> 00:02:26.310 we were at a, the ERG Alliance event 37 00:02:26.370 --> 00:02:29.730 in London, weren't we, on that day? That's right. In Waterloo, South Southwark. 38 00:02:31.170 --> 00:02:34.805 Yeah. It was it was really nice to be, and and, you know, it's 39 00:02:34.805 --> 00:02:38.645 interesting too, of course, for me being kind of the representative American in the 40 00:02:38.645 --> 00:02:42.405 room. You know, everyone was like, why? And, I still don't have 41 00:02:42.405 --> 00:02:46.245 those answers. No. And you put a brave face on 42 00:02:46.245 --> 00:02:49.940 it, if I remember rightly. Yeah. We could everyone could tell that there was 43 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.760 a a lot of confusion and pain behind the eyes. Oh, 44 00:02:53.760 --> 00:02:57.600 yeah. Well, I, you know, I guess that's good because 45 00:02:57.600 --> 00:03:01.295 I don't wanna fake anybody ever. I will 46 00:03:01.295 --> 00:03:04.595 say this, you know, in processing it now for several weeks, 47 00:03:05.695 --> 00:03:09.075 there is a lot of pain still. And every day, the news 48 00:03:09.535 --> 00:03:13.075 is, you know, almost more unbelievable with some of the appointees 49 00:03:13.295 --> 00:03:16.920 and some of the ramifications and things that are happening. But 50 00:03:16.920 --> 00:03:20.680 it's also rallied maybe an energy or 51 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:23.580 a a latent complacency. 52 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:27.959 Right? I think that we we often take a lot for 53 00:03:27.959 --> 00:03:31.705 granted, whether it's women's rights or any kind of rights, civil 54 00:03:31.705 --> 00:03:35.465 rights. And those are things that we have to continue to put 55 00:03:35.465 --> 00:03:38.925 our focus on. So for what it's worth, it 56 00:03:39.145 --> 00:03:42.985 bites. But at the same time, we are gonna bite back 57 00:03:42.985 --> 00:03:46.709 in a way that is productive, smart, and, sustainable. So 58 00:03:47.170 --> 00:03:50.230 we have a lot of work to do. I think a lot of people are 59 00:03:50.370 --> 00:03:53.909 realizing that. They're taking maybe the rest of the year to kind of re energize 60 00:03:54.049 --> 00:03:57.810 and at the same time find a new approach. Yeah. It's 61 00:03:59.475 --> 00:04:03.315 I find that the whole world of politics is it's 62 00:04:03.315 --> 00:04:07.015 very divisive, isn't it? I mean, we're gonna be talking around ERGs 63 00:04:07.155 --> 00:04:10.455 and staff networks and empowering people and creating belonging, 64 00:04:10.835 --> 00:04:14.250 which is an inclusive approach. Whereas politics 65 00:04:14.310 --> 00:04:18.070 is you're in, you're out. You're with 66 00:04:18.070 --> 00:04:21.750 us, you're against us. And and there's no room for the for the losers 67 00:04:21.750 --> 00:04:24.330 almost, is there? Yeah. Well, think about 68 00:04:25.165 --> 00:04:28.925 elementary, middle school, high school. I mean, why is it any different? You know, 69 00:04:28.925 --> 00:04:32.525 power, people who wanna be popular, who wanna have power in 70 00:04:32.525 --> 00:04:35.324 that. The only way they 71 00:04:36.620 --> 00:04:40.300 I should say the only way. The most common way, of course, is to 72 00:04:40.300 --> 00:04:44.060 make themselves either bullies or make the and or make the 73 00:04:44.060 --> 00:04:47.660 rest of the population feel less confident. And 74 00:04:47.660 --> 00:04:51.384 so, unfortunately, that that's kind of the definition 75 00:04:51.384 --> 00:04:54.525 of divisiveness. Right? Somebody's a winner, somebody's a loser. 76 00:04:55.785 --> 00:04:58.845 And it's just sad. It's a human condition that unfortunately 77 00:04:59.465 --> 00:05:03.170 transcends ethnicity, culture, country. 78 00:05:03.170 --> 00:05:06.930 Right? And you look at all over the world. Or you end up in a 79 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:10.290 a democracy that is constrained. Someone like, 80 00:05:10.450 --> 00:05:13.925 Switzerland, for example, where it's a consensus 81 00:05:14.065 --> 00:05:17.425 voting all the time and it's very hard to make change, which creates a very 82 00:05:17.425 --> 00:05:21.265 stable political government, but you don't evolve as 83 00:05:21.265 --> 00:05:24.705 a country or evolve as a society because you can never get 84 00:05:24.705 --> 00:05:27.640 consensus. That's the other challenge, isn't it? Yeah. 85 00:05:28.820 --> 00:05:32.500 Well, you can never get consensus. Let's think about that for a second, though. Because 86 00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:36.200 if we're really inclusive, we're inviting difference. 87 00:05:36.820 --> 00:05:40.585 We embrace and celebrate differences. Right? So consensus 88 00:05:40.725 --> 00:05:44.565 may not be something that is attainable. And maybe that's okay. I mean, we're getting 89 00:05:44.565 --> 00:05:48.345 very ideological here. But, the reality 90 00:05:48.405 --> 00:05:51.845 is this, is if you really have all those beautiful different voices at a 91 00:05:51.845 --> 00:05:54.889 table and you want them to agree, 92 00:05:56.150 --> 00:05:59.910 that's kind of by definition not going to work. It shouldn't 93 00:05:59.910 --> 00:06:03.610 work. Right? But if we can come to a place 94 00:06:04.150 --> 00:06:07.585 where and, you know, I'm not I don't love the word compromise. 95 00:06:07.884 --> 00:06:11.565 It kind of implies that we're all not getting what we want. 96 00:06:11.565 --> 00:06:14.845 But if we can come to a place of compromise where everyone goes, you know, 97 00:06:14.845 --> 00:06:18.444 that'll work for me enough. And that's one of my favorite words is 98 00:06:18.444 --> 00:06:22.280 enough. Because I don't think we use enough enough. But, like, instead of 99 00:06:22.280 --> 00:06:26.040 having to be totally, you know, if my list has 100 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:29.500 10 requirements, but I get 8 or 7 of them 101 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.419 fulfilled, and you get 8 or 7 of yours fulfilled, that's enough. 102 00:06:34.785 --> 00:06:38.465 So consensus may not be the right 103 00:06:38.465 --> 00:06:42.065 choice there. Oh, I I hear what you're saying about the word consensus. I I 104 00:06:42.065 --> 00:06:45.905 always try and reframe it so that I'm not seeing it as 105 00:06:45.905 --> 00:06:49.650 I've given way or I've had to compromise. I 106 00:06:49.650 --> 00:06:53.410 wanna see compromises. Actually, I'm satisfied that 107 00:06:53.410 --> 00:06:56.710 we've both given ground. We've both met in the middle. 108 00:06:56.930 --> 00:07:00.310 Right. We both acknowledged each other's feelings, our needs. 109 00:07:01.185 --> 00:07:04.785 And when we sat down and talked about something, I go, actually, you're 110 00:07:04.785 --> 00:07:08.385 right. We need a bit of that as well. And so we're we're not giving 111 00:07:08.385 --> 00:07:12.065 ground. We're we're we're sharing ground and understanding each 112 00:07:12.065 --> 00:07:15.845 other's needs. I think that's that's how I would frame compromise. I agree. 100%. 113 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.460 100%. Wouldn't it be a better world? 114 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:25.199 It would be. Right? You know, I don't wanna label anything or 115 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.620 try to avoid labels. But, you know, this this 116 00:07:29.245 --> 00:07:33.005 historically dictatorial stance 117 00:07:33.005 --> 00:07:36.685 of, you know, it's mine, and I has to be my 118 00:07:36.685 --> 00:07:40.445 way or the like, it's it's just we gotta do 119 00:07:40.445 --> 00:07:43.470 something about that. And and at the same time, we don't have to 120 00:07:44.030 --> 00:07:47.790 impose. Right? Like, just because we choose whatever it might 121 00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:51.470 be, a lifestyle or a preference, doesn't 122 00:07:51.470 --> 00:07:55.150 mean you have to. Right? And I think I think 123 00:07:55.150 --> 00:07:58.905 there is this, I don't know. I don't even 124 00:07:58.905 --> 00:08:02.745 know the words to how I am, like, so so beyond trying to 125 00:08:02.745 --> 00:08:06.505 explain things, as I said. But I think there is this assumption that we 126 00:08:06.505 --> 00:08:10.185 all have to, like you said, consensus, we all have to agree. We don't have 127 00:08:10.185 --> 00:08:14.000 to agree. And that's okay. Yeah. No. I I agree we 128 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.600 don't have to agree. And I think it's I I always try and come from 129 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:21.440 the angle that if I can understand why you believe something, I don't 130 00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:25.060 actually have to believe the same thing as long as I can understand and relate 131 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.575 to your lived experience and the fact that you're 132 00:08:28.815 --> 00:08:32.255 straight or you're black or you have a disability, whatever it may 133 00:08:32.255 --> 00:08:36.015 be, I can't walk in your shoes, but, and I can't necessarily 134 00:08:36.015 --> 00:08:39.695 have empathy for what you go through, but I can relate to 135 00:08:39.695 --> 00:08:43.390 your stories, to your lived experience, and I can go, actually, I've never seen it 136 00:08:43.390 --> 00:08:46.750 through that those eyes before and that that lens before. But now you say that, 137 00:08:46.750 --> 00:08:49.490 I I really do understand why it's important to you. 138 00:08:51.150 --> 00:08:53.950 It will never be important to me, but I can understand now it's important for 139 00:08:53.950 --> 00:08:57.775 you, it's important to me as well, sort of thing. Just trying to find that 140 00:08:57.775 --> 00:09:01.455 middle ground, isn't it? Yeah. Well, yes. And 141 00:09:01.455 --> 00:09:05.155 and I think that oftentimes people make 142 00:09:06.335 --> 00:09:10.030 very poor assumptions. Right? We know assumptions are never good, but 143 00:09:10.170 --> 00:09:13.790 they can be very dangerous. And and what I mean by that is 144 00:09:14.250 --> 00:09:17.930 you don't know what somebody's been through. You have no 145 00:09:17.930 --> 00:09:21.690 idea. You, you know, you're talking to somebody at any given 146 00:09:21.690 --> 00:09:25.345 moment and you don't know what they just came out of or have lived through 147 00:09:25.345 --> 00:09:29.024 in the past. And so their perspective is gonna be 148 00:09:29.024 --> 00:09:32.704 different than yours. But it doesn't mean it's better, wrong, right. It's just 149 00:09:32.704 --> 00:09:36.330 different. At the same time, isn't 150 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:39.630 that a beautiful thing? We get all this 151 00:09:40.570 --> 00:09:44.170 different views of things, whether it's, you know, 152 00:09:44.170 --> 00:09:47.530 for innovation reasons or just to enrich our 153 00:09:47.530 --> 00:09:51.355 intellectual appreciation of all of it. But I don't 154 00:09:51.355 --> 00:09:55.055 think everyone I know I'm not, you know, clearly that's not a shared 155 00:09:55.195 --> 00:09:58.095 viewpoint. You know, 156 00:09:59.035 --> 00:10:02.875 I I don't know how or why I have that, to be honest 157 00:10:02.875 --> 00:10:06.580 with you. I have a lot of my own lived experiences that make 158 00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:10.100 me that way. But it's there's an irony 159 00:10:10.100 --> 00:10:13.460 here, . Because I want people to be more 160 00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:16.920 accepting because I'm more accepting. Right? So 161 00:10:17.140 --> 00:10:20.665 I try and also understand, and I use brain 162 00:10:20.665 --> 00:10:24.425 science as my tool to understand why 163 00:10:24.425 --> 00:10:28.185 does somebody feel so bigoted? Or why do they feel 164 00:10:28.185 --> 00:10:32.024 so assumptive? What like, what is behind that 165 00:10:32.024 --> 00:10:35.870 so that I can be a little bit more 166 00:10:35.870 --> 00:10:39.630 prepared and and maybe I don't want to say supportive. That's not the right 167 00:10:39.630 --> 00:10:43.390 word either. But so so that 168 00:10:43.390 --> 00:10:46.450 I can create a a common ground. Do you have any theories 169 00:10:47.144 --> 00:10:50.665 with your brain science and your your experience as to 170 00:10:50.665 --> 00:10:54.204 why, yeah, as you say, I, we, 171 00:10:54.345 --> 00:10:58.185 many people we know, want to see betterment. We want to 172 00:10:58.185 --> 00:11:01.870 feel we want people to succeed. We want people to genuinely feel 173 00:11:01.870 --> 00:11:03.890 safe, secure, have opportunities. 174 00:11:05.550 --> 00:11:08.670 And we believe we're the best in people, but there are other people who have 175 00:11:08.670 --> 00:11:12.430 a different view where they're not, well, whether it's 176 00:11:12.430 --> 00:11:16.265 selfish or self centred or self effacing, Begins 177 00:11:16.265 --> 00:11:20.105 with the word self. They're not thinking in those ways. So what 178 00:11:20.105 --> 00:11:23.725 is the difference? And without going into personality disorders, narcissistic 179 00:11:24.025 --> 00:11:27.625 tenders, what word should we use? Can we? Can we, 180 00:11:27.625 --> 00:11:30.760 please? Well, alright. We'll we'll make it very 181 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:35.960 I don't want to say simple. It's not simple, but we'll make it, somewhat easy 182 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:39.480 to digest. You know, there's two reasons. Well, first of all, no baby is 183 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.315 born selfish. Right? Like you don't come out and you're like, I'm 184 00:11:43.315 --> 00:11:46.995 gonna be a jerk when I grow up. Like, you know. You don't it's a 185 00:11:46.995 --> 00:11:50.775 learned behavior, right? So they learn it from somewhere, some people, 186 00:11:51.955 --> 00:11:54.535 some situations. And in many cases, 187 00:11:56.030 --> 00:11:59.470 it may be a defensive mechanism from some trauma or 188 00:11:59.470 --> 00:12:02.850 from other things too, of course. Right? So 189 00:12:04.190 --> 00:12:07.810 you can't always blame the people or the situation, 190 00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:11.390 but you can at least explain that there's a reason why that person is feeling 191 00:12:11.390 --> 00:12:15.125 the way they are. Now, reality overall is that our 192 00:12:15.125 --> 00:12:18.725 brains, as evolved as they are, they're still pretty 193 00:12:18.725 --> 00:12:22.404 cave like, right? In that we respond to fear. That is 194 00:12:22.404 --> 00:12:25.980 our immediate, you know, I'm about to be hurt. 195 00:12:25.980 --> 00:12:29.820 And hurt, not just physically hurt, but emotionally hurt. Like, someone's not 196 00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:32.320 gonna like me. Somebody's gonna think I'm a loser. 197 00:12:33.420 --> 00:12:37.200 And in that moment of what is usually subconscious, 198 00:12:37.580 --> 00:12:41.194 because we don't stop and say, Oh, I'm feeling this way. It's 199 00:12:41.194 --> 00:12:44.634 a reaction. And the reaction goes right into our brain stem, which 200 00:12:44.634 --> 00:12:48.475 is the cave person part of our brain. Right? That's the oldest 201 00:12:48.475 --> 00:12:51.454 part. It's the part of the brain that keeps us 202 00:12:52.380 --> 00:12:55.900 in survival mode. And survival mode is 203 00:12:55.900 --> 00:12:59.660 interesting because survival mode has 2 kind of 204 00:12:59.660 --> 00:13:03.420 extremes. 1 is very aggressive behavior, defensive 205 00:13:03.420 --> 00:13:07.065 aggressive. It could be somebody 206 00:13:07.444 --> 00:13:11.045 like, Oh, I didn't say that. Or it could be, you know, You. 207 00:13:11.045 --> 00:13:13.625 You're the problem. Those kinds of aggressive behaviors. 208 00:13:14.805 --> 00:13:18.420 But it could also be the other extreme, which is shy hunkering 209 00:13:18.420 --> 00:13:21.960 down, trying to disappear. You know, the people who don't want to say anything, 210 00:13:22.900 --> 00:13:26.680 maybe even passive aggressive, you could put in that bucket. But 211 00:13:27.060 --> 00:13:30.740 people who are quiet, who are introverted in a way that you 212 00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:33.775 go, you know, say something. And 213 00:13:34.955 --> 00:13:38.795 that's survival mode, right? They're scared. And that 214 00:13:38.795 --> 00:13:42.475 fear, that trigger of whatever it is. And I mean, 215 00:13:42.475 --> 00:13:46.170 it's kind of almost farcical in 216 00:13:46.170 --> 00:13:49.690 some ways, right? I watched our political news. We started on that 217 00:13:49.690 --> 00:13:52.990 foot. And I'm like, that guy that guy's scared, 218 00:13:53.449 --> 00:13:57.209 right? He's scared. He's scared of losing face. He's scared of something. And 219 00:13:57.209 --> 00:14:00.735 so, what do they do? They get overly aggressive. They become 220 00:14:01.275 --> 00:14:05.035 passive puppets, right? And that's the heart of it. 221 00:14:05.035 --> 00:14:08.235 I mean, it's what it's the heart of it. It's the head of it, right? 222 00:14:08.235 --> 00:14:11.295 It's that's what it's all about. So, when we don't belong, 223 00:14:12.700 --> 00:14:16.300 when we're not included, we go into that 224 00:14:16.300 --> 00:14:20.060 survival mode. And if we can make people or 225 00:14:20.060 --> 00:14:23.360 help people feel more belonged, more included, 226 00:14:24.825 --> 00:14:28.045 maybe we wouldn't have so many damn dictators all over the world. 227 00:14:29.705 --> 00:14:33.405 And I did stress that. Dictators. Sorry. 228 00:14:33.465 --> 00:14:37.305 Dictator. Yes. I yeah. There was a an enunciation of 229 00:14:37.305 --> 00:14:40.700 that word, wasn't there? It's heavily loaded towards the first syllable. 230 00:14:41.640 --> 00:14:45.480 Well and let me be clear. It is not it 231 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.240 is not, you know, male or and women 232 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:53.055 have this these issues too. And more and more, I think, you 233 00:14:53.055 --> 00:14:56.575 know, for lots of social reasons, women are 234 00:14:56.575 --> 00:15:00.255 acting equally defensive and 235 00:15:00.255 --> 00:15:04.095 aggressive as well as shy. You know, we we do see those polars all over 236 00:15:04.095 --> 00:15:07.715 the place. I've lived 2 lives as as you're aware, 237 00:15:08.630 --> 00:15:12.390 and I've noticed a complete difference in the way I view the 238 00:15:12.390 --> 00:15:14.650 world, the way I show up, the way I interact. 239 00:15:16.150 --> 00:15:19.910 And I I could liken it to finding a religion or finding my 240 00:15:19.910 --> 00:15:23.745 epiphany or whatever it was whatever it may be. And why 241 00:15:23.745 --> 00:15:27.445 I look back on that that time in my life is realising that once you've 242 00:15:28.625 --> 00:15:32.225 told that biggest secret, that biggest thing inside you, once 243 00:15:32.225 --> 00:15:35.585 you've effectively opened your kimono to the 244 00:15:35.585 --> 00:15:39.400 world and said this is who I am underneath, There's not a 245 00:15:39.400 --> 00:15:43.240 lot left to hide and you've also realised that fear, all 246 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.760 this apprehension, the things that are holding you back are 247 00:15:46.760 --> 00:15:50.600 just so what? No big deal, you can get over it. I 248 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:53.835 think you're right in saying that some people have this 249 00:15:55.115 --> 00:15:58.875 defensiveness, insecurity, the little child inside 250 00:15:58.875 --> 00:16:02.315 them that doesn't want to be found out, doesn't 251 00:16:02.315 --> 00:16:05.915 want to be, you know, wants to be in with a big crowd, you know, 252 00:16:05.915 --> 00:16:09.595 they're always chasing this and they surround themselves with people who say yes all 253 00:16:09.595 --> 00:16:13.410 the time or amplify their their beliefs. Whereas I I 254 00:16:13.410 --> 00:16:17.010 find it much much more interesting now to to exist in, I 255 00:16:17.010 --> 00:16:20.290 say, chaos. We live in a world where I don't have to have all the 256 00:16:20.290 --> 00:16:24.130 answers, and I'm really, really comfortable with that these days. I love 257 00:16:24.130 --> 00:16:27.875 how you you said that. Yes. A 100%. But you said 258 00:16:27.875 --> 00:16:31.315 some people. I think everyone does. And it's 259 00:16:31.315 --> 00:16:35.074 few that and I say everyone, including you and I, 260 00:16:35.074 --> 00:16:38.790 that there's probably moments you still you regress a little. I 261 00:16:38.790 --> 00:16:42.550 mean, I do too. Now what we know from our research at the Institute 262 00:16:42.550 --> 00:16:46.149 is that by the time we're 60 years old, we're finally 263 00:16:46.149 --> 00:16:49.910 comfortable in our own skin and as a population. Right? You know, why is 264 00:16:49.910 --> 00:16:53.345 that? Because by the time you're 60, you finally realize all that minutia that you 265 00:16:53.345 --> 00:16:57.105 mentioned, all those things that just don't matter. Like, I'm not 266 00:16:57.105 --> 00:17:00.945 changing now. Like, this is who I am. Get over it. Right? But 267 00:17:00.945 --> 00:17:04.609 there are going to be moments, I don't care how confident someone out 268 00:17:04.609 --> 00:17:08.390 there thinks they are. In fact, it takes confidence 269 00:17:08.450 --> 00:17:11.970 to realize you're not confident. Right? And when you 270 00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:15.810 finally come to that conclusion that, you know what? I'm not perfect. I'm not right 271 00:17:15.810 --> 00:17:19.535 all the time. And, you know, I'm human. If if 272 00:17:19.535 --> 00:17:23.155 that's the way it is. And when you accept that really wholly, 273 00:17:24.175 --> 00:17:27.935 it is liberating. You're absolutely right. Oh, yeah. I just sort of 274 00:17:27.935 --> 00:17:31.440 phew in my my brow here, you know, you have to start to get your 275 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.640 your shit together. If you're like, well, I'm 30 60. I'm 60 in 7 weeks' 276 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.160 time. So I'm kind of glad that I've kind of arrived at that 277 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:41.920 plateau just at the I mean, I think what 278 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.754 would have happened if I got to this point and I locked in my personality 279 00:17:45.815 --> 00:17:49.654 at 60. It was the other one. I think, wow, at least 280 00:17:49.654 --> 00:17:53.495 I'm locking in the right personality at 60 and thinking I've got going together. But 281 00:17:53.575 --> 00:17:57.095 Well, thank you too for doing it because we love who you 282 00:17:57.095 --> 00:18:00.780 are. Yeah, I think I think my fifties have 283 00:18:00.780 --> 00:18:04.300 been in training for my sixties. You know, I think when you get to this 284 00:18:04.300 --> 00:18:08.060 point in your life, approaching 60, you're right. You don't have to be 285 00:18:08.060 --> 00:18:11.735 anything anymore. All of those, I 286 00:18:11.735 --> 00:18:15.414 suppose again, human instinct when you were young, you're trying to nest 287 00:18:15.414 --> 00:18:19.255 build, you're trying to acquire stuff, you're trying to feather everything 288 00:18:19.255 --> 00:18:23.034 and making sure that you have an environment where your children can grow up safely. 289 00:18:23.760 --> 00:18:26.480 You can then provide for them. All this kind of stuff that we do is 290 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:30.320 very primeval. And we get to, I suppose, our age. Sorry. 291 00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:34.160 I wasn't trying to say that you're our age. Our age. No. We're we're 292 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:37.540 yes. 60 scissors. Sis, sis, scissors. 293 00:18:39.655 --> 00:18:43.335 Sixty sisters. I can't even say it. We don't need that 294 00:18:43.335 --> 00:18:46.695 baggage anymore. You know, we can shed that baggage. And I was talking to someone 295 00:18:46.695 --> 00:18:50.455 yesterday about the difference between baggage and luggage. Baggage is stuff you 296 00:18:50.455 --> 00:18:54.135 carry around with you, that you collect over the years. Luggage is the stuff 297 00:18:54.135 --> 00:18:57.539 where you sort your baggage out and say, this is all I now need 298 00:18:57.919 --> 00:19:01.679 to have a great life from here on in. So this is a shedding 299 00:19:01.679 --> 00:19:05.120 of the baggage and just picking up the luggage now. Yeah. So I'll give 300 00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:08.955 you another data point that reinforces exactly what you just 301 00:19:08.955 --> 00:19:12.315 said. You know, we we've done a lot of research through the institute over the 302 00:19:12.315 --> 00:19:15.915 years, the last decade plus. And some of these data 303 00:19:15.915 --> 00:19:19.115 points, when you first collect them, you're like, really? And then you start to, like, 304 00:19:19.115 --> 00:19:22.670 ask people, and you'll it's just completely validated. And one of 305 00:19:22.670 --> 00:19:26.030 them was, you know, when you're in your twenties, your thirties, you have a 306 00:19:26.030 --> 00:19:29.630 bazillion friends typically. Like, you look at 307 00:19:29.630 --> 00:19:33.090 wedding pictures and there's, like, how many grooms men and grooves 308 00:19:33.550 --> 00:19:37.195 at bridesmaids. Right? And then you get into your later years 309 00:19:37.335 --> 00:19:41.014 and the average number , I'm gonna ask you to guess. What's the average number 310 00:19:41.014 --> 00:19:44.394 of people you'd really consider a good friend? Really honest, 311 00:19:45.014 --> 00:19:47.195 I could survive just my wife and I 312 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.220 as as the core must haves, 313 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.400 and our children, and my parents, maybe. I don't I don't mean 314 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.679 maybe in a nasty way. I'm just saying that if it came down to it 315 00:19:59.679 --> 00:20:02.400 and I had to lock the door and not let anybody in, my wife and 316 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:05.985 I would be very happy together. But I suppose outside of that, there were 5 317 00:20:05.985 --> 00:20:09.765 people maybe. Maybe. 2. 2 was 318 00:20:10.865 --> 00:20:14.645 the statistical audit appointment. Tongue tied today. 2. 319 00:20:14.865 --> 00:20:18.580 And part of that is letting go of the baggage. Because 320 00:20:18.580 --> 00:20:22.260 there's a lot of people that we collect over the years that are out of 321 00:20:22.260 --> 00:20:26.020 convenience. You know, people that are there during your kids' young 322 00:20:26.020 --> 00:20:29.800 years where you needed to carpool and you needed some backup or whatever. 323 00:20:30.815 --> 00:20:34.015 Friends that were just fun to go out drinking buddies. You know, whatever it was. 324 00:20:34.015 --> 00:20:36.575 And you get older and you're like, you know, I have so little time. And 325 00:20:36.575 --> 00:20:39.615 it's not because I'm planning to die anytime soon. It's just that a day is 326 00:20:39.615 --> 00:20:43.290 24 hours and I gotta sleep at least 8 of them. Right? So, 327 00:20:43.290 --> 00:20:46.970 like, with the time I have, I wanna be really mindful of the people that 328 00:20:46.970 --> 00:20:50.590 matter to me. And so you'd really do that, what I call pruning 329 00:20:51.130 --> 00:20:54.570 of your relationships. And subsequently, you get rid of the 330 00:20:54.570 --> 00:20:58.184 baggage. And you're like, you know what? I don't have time for that person and 331 00:20:58.184 --> 00:21:01.865 their drama. I don't have time for this person who's only asking me 332 00:21:01.865 --> 00:21:05.625 for stuff all the time. So you do go through some of that in 333 00:21:05.625 --> 00:21:08.180 your fifties. And you end up in your 60s. And you're kind of like, I'm 334 00:21:08.180 --> 00:21:11.300 lighter. I don't need any more stuff. I don't need more people. I don't need 335 00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:15.140 any more anything. I just want to live in my own skin 336 00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:18.980 and respect my values, my needs, and my wants. And the people that 337 00:21:18.980 --> 00:21:22.825 I love in the same vein. Yeah. I've I've moved into I've I've talked to 338 00:21:22.825 --> 00:21:26.665 other people, a sufficiency phase of my life. So 339 00:21:26.665 --> 00:21:30.025 I've gone away from acquisition and assets and 340 00:21:30.025 --> 00:21:33.625 gluttony into a sufficiency. So what you're saying there is is is 341 00:21:33.625 --> 00:21:37.280 mirroring that that feeling. I'm shedding the 342 00:21:37.280 --> 00:21:40.960 gluttony of relationships to the simplicity of 343 00:21:41.120 --> 00:21:44.100 to sufficient relationships that feed my 344 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:48.400 needs. We're symbiotic in our needs with each other rather 345 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.055 than it being, as you said, unbalanced. You're a taker. I'm 346 00:21:52.055 --> 00:21:55.735 always a giver with you. We don't need that, do we? Yeah. And, you know, 347 00:21:55.735 --> 00:21:59.335 I think there's a a beautiful I don't 348 00:21:59.335 --> 00:22:03.175 know. Justification, I guess, I would call it where you say I say to myself 349 00:22:03.175 --> 00:22:06.740 regularly, if I waste time, for example, with 350 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:09.560 that person and all their nonsense, 351 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.800 it's less time I can give less energy, less 352 00:22:14.660 --> 00:22:18.260 focus to the people or the person that really needs me 353 00:22:18.260 --> 00:22:21.855 now. Right? And so, you get judicious. 354 00:22:22.155 --> 00:22:25.835 You get judicious with what you do, where you go, 355 00:22:25.835 --> 00:22:29.675 what you join, what you sign up for, and who you hang out with. 356 00:22:29.675 --> 00:22:33.375 Because you recognize we have limited asset. And 357 00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:37.150 you know, I don't regret any of the past. I think it's all part of 358 00:22:37.150 --> 00:22:40.750 our, you know, own life experience. But at the same 359 00:22:40.750 --> 00:22:44.370 time, you know, I think a lot of people hold on to relationships. 360 00:22:44.670 --> 00:22:48.465 They hold on to things well 361 00:22:48.465 --> 00:22:52.305 past their due and and subsequently do regret that. So the sooner you 362 00:22:52.305 --> 00:22:56.145 can prune, the better. Software subscriptions, you need to not 363 00:22:56.145 --> 00:22:59.365 renew them. Exactly. 364 00:23:00.470 --> 00:23:03.910 That's that's the worst thing about Black Friday and 365 00:23:03.910 --> 00:23:07.750 Thanksgiving and Cyber Monday is all my AppSumo and all those 366 00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:11.430 other software deals I've got all renew at this time of year. So it's 367 00:23:11.430 --> 00:23:14.950 got 200 dollars for this, $50 for that, $100 for this, you 368 00:23:14.950 --> 00:23:18.674 think? Blimey. So so I started for all this last year and some 369 00:23:18.674 --> 00:23:22.434 more. I'm sorry. Well, needless to say, there's an app for that. 370 00:23:22.434 --> 00:23:25.634 I can't remember the name, but you There's probably and an app to unsubscribe you 371 00:23:25.634 --> 00:23:29.380 from all of that. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. For sure. But you're 372 00:23:29.380 --> 00:23:33.060 right. We need to unsubscribe from our friends that aren't bringing us value. 373 00:23:33.060 --> 00:23:36.900 They're not adding they're decrementing rather than incrementing 374 00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:40.740 our life. And And family too. I'm sorry to, like, pick 375 00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:44.225 up your friends. But, you know, there's family members that are also life suckers. And 376 00:23:44.225 --> 00:23:47.745 so and and, you know, yeah, you might have to see them at a 377 00:23:47.745 --> 00:23:51.585 holiday, but it doesn't mean you have to jump, you know, every 378 00:23:51.585 --> 00:23:55.345 time they say I need something. That's a hard one because 379 00:23:55.345 --> 00:23:59.120 you're like, oh, I feel indebted to family. You're born with family. You have 380 00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:02.240 no choice on that one. But you can still minimize the, 381 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.559 the drain. As you're talking there, and I'm my brain's flying around in the 382 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:10.320 background thinking this is a very privileged conversation to have 383 00:24:10.320 --> 00:24:13.675 the privilege of a supporting environment of 384 00:24:14.135 --> 00:24:17.755 a a status of wealth and to be able to make these life choices. 385 00:24:18.055 --> 00:24:21.895 Not everybody has this opportunity to pick and choose their their 386 00:24:21.895 --> 00:24:24.555 friends. Some people are, are maybe struggling. 387 00:24:26.610 --> 00:24:29.890 That that happens in organizations as well, doesn't it? It's always a 388 00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:33.910 if you're living a working in a world where you're not being respected, 389 00:24:34.450 --> 00:24:36.850 it's very easy for some and some, well, if you don't like it, leave and 390 00:24:36.850 --> 00:24:40.304 go somewhere else. But that's also a very privileged thing to say, isn't it? Everyone 391 00:24:40.304 --> 00:24:43.985 has that ability to up up sticks and go. Yeah. 392 00:24:43.985 --> 00:24:45.365 Absolutely. Absolutely. 393 00:24:47.904 --> 00:24:51.745 It's unfortunately it's it's kinda like family in some ways, really. 394 00:24:51.745 --> 00:24:55.284 You end up in an organization. Now maybe you chose that job originally, 395 00:24:55.424 --> 00:24:59.000 but, again, like you're suggesting, maybe you had to for a 396 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.680 variety of reasons. And then all of a sudden, you're surrounded by all these people 397 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:06.360 who may or may not get you, may not want to get you, and at 398 00:25:06.360 --> 00:25:09.855 the same time may not be anything like you. So that can 399 00:25:09.855 --> 00:25:12.115 be extraordinarily traumatic. 400 00:25:14.095 --> 00:25:17.455 So we hear sequential tales of, 401 00:25:19.615 --> 00:25:23.235