Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where
Joanne Lockwood: everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're
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Joanne Lockwood: after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and
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Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites. And today is episode
Joanne Lockwood: 143 with the title, Back and
Joanne Lockwood: Field to Boardroom. And I have the absolute honour and privilege
Joanne Lockwood: to welcome Taran Kumar. Taran is a
Joanne Lockwood: former army officer and battle survivor.
Joanne Lockwood: He is now a leadership coach and start up mentor who inspires
Joanne Lockwood: professionals and organisations to unlock
Joanne Lockwood: their potential. When I asked Darren to describe his superpower, he
Joanne Lockwood: said that it is transforming
Joanne Lockwood: adversity into opportunity by empowering
Joanne Lockwood: individuals to lead with purpose and resilience.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Darren. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Joanne, for
Taran Kumar: inviting me to this lovely platform of yours. Pleasure is all
Taran Kumar: mine. And you're tapped everywhere in the world
Joanne Lockwood: you are. You're in India. Is that right?
Taran Kumar: Absolutely. Nowadays, India is in the talks.
Taran Kumar: And I come from a place called Ahmedabad, which
Taran Kumar: happens to be the city from where our prime
Taran Kumar: minister Narendra Modi comes. And it's a beautiful part of the
Taran Kumar: world. You must visit once to India because that is
Taran Kumar: something which should be there on your bucket list. It is. It is. I've,
Joanne Lockwood: ticked off Melbourne, Australia, and the south coast of Australia,
Joanne Lockwood: and I I need to explore more of Asia. And, India is
Joanne Lockwood: definitely up there on the list. Yes. India is a very
Taran Kumar: diverse country. We have so many languages,
Taran Kumar: so many different cultures, and that's why we call
Taran Kumar: our country to be a perfect example of unity
Taran Kumar: in diversity. And as a country, you've gone through a massive
Joanne Lockwood: transformation over the last 50 or so years
Joanne Lockwood: post colonial. And you've got a new country up, really, aren't
Joanne Lockwood: you? In fact, you know, every country that comes out of a
Taran Kumar: colonial mindset takes time for that
Taran Kumar: thing to get over. And India was no exception for
Taran Kumar: that. However, our forefathers,
Taran Kumar: the people, those who fought for the independence of our country,
Taran Kumar: they had a grand vision about India. And they ensured
Taran Kumar: that we carry out our progress
Taran Kumar: through something which is so keen
Taran Kumar: and that we discussed that in this diverse world,
Taran Kumar: there should be a lot of inclusivity. And we
Taran Kumar: started including the industrial revolution, how the
Taran Kumar: factories would come up. India was once upon a time known
Taran Kumar: as in our lingo, we call it as a
Taran Kumar: bird, which was made of gold. And that's why Columbus,
Taran Kumar: Vasco da Gama, they all came to India just to explore this
Taran Kumar: beautiful country and know, and that's why we got invaded
Taran Kumar: also. So it is no exception, but then when
Taran Kumar: people plunder, they loot, they do not leave you in the right
Taran Kumar: stage or right state. And it takes
Taran Kumar: almost couple of generations for a country to revive
Taran Kumar: itself. And now we are on an upwardly
Taran Kumar: mobile phase. I can assure you that, we
Taran Kumar: are progressing by leaps and bounds, making our impact felt
Taran Kumar: on the world and being a very peaceful nation.
Taran Kumar: You will find that we have friends almost everywhere
Taran Kumar: across the world. You're the fastest growing economy in the world. Is that
Taran Kumar: Yes. It's not. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. We are the fastest
Taran Kumar: growing economy, and it is certainly related to the population
Taran Kumar: that we have. So we can do lot of in house consumption.
Taran Kumar: And at the same time, we have the ability
Taran Kumar: to support other countries. Today, we are growing in
Taran Kumar: agriculture. Today, we are supporting other
Taran Kumar: countries through technology. Indian brains, you
Taran Kumar: know, they are ruling most of the top notch technology
Taran Kumar: companies, Johan. What do you say? No. I've I've seen
Joanne Lockwood: the rise of of Indian expertise over the last 20,
Joanne Lockwood: 30 years. At one stage, we were outsourcing to you,
Joanne Lockwood: and now you you have the expertise and you're selling it back to us.
Taran Kumar: Yes. So life has taken a complete circle. I would say
Taran Kumar: that. And now there is a value exchange that is
Taran Kumar: happening. People in our country, they are pretty serious in
Taran Kumar: whatever they do. It's not only about fun. It
Taran Kumar: is about value addition. And that is something which is
Taran Kumar: very intrinsic to Indians in one way or the other.
Taran Kumar: All five fingers are not the same. So you may happen to have interaction
Taran Kumar: with some who are not aligned to this thought, but
Taran Kumar: majority of people you'll find when they're working for corporations or when
Taran Kumar: they're leading, heading these corporations, their entire
Taran Kumar: focus is on growing that organization.
Taran Kumar: And when you grow, your own growth
Taran Kumar: automatically happens. From my understanding, India has
Joanne Lockwood: a very hierarchical society with
Joanne Lockwood: the caste system and different structures and hierarchy
Joanne Lockwood: within the population. Is that something
Joanne Lockwood: that's evolving away, or is that still quite rigid?
Taran Kumar: No. In fact, that is how it has been projected.
Taran Kumar: We are very open. You know, every society has got
Taran Kumar: certain castes. Every society has got certain people who are
Taran Kumar: supposed to perform certain tasks in the
Taran Kumar: olden days. And those profession, they still continue
Taran Kumar: because that is how they get recognized in the society.
Taran Kumar: So India was no exception to that rule. And
Taran Kumar: somehow people, they
Taran Kumar: inched up the ladder. They were not
Taran Kumar: standing static wherever they were about 100 years back.
Taran Kumar: But the way the narrative was built up, I would say, Juwon,
Taran Kumar: that was not in line with the actual picture
Taran Kumar: that India represents. So we are pretty
Taran Kumar: open about lot of things. And, yes, in certain parts,
Taran Kumar: I would not be hesitating in accepting that, this
Taran Kumar: particular problem persists, but then there are givers and
Taran Kumar: takers everywhere. So there would be naysayers who
Taran Kumar: would not agree to everything that's happening right. So
Taran Kumar: they would like, same thing to continue. But, yes,
Taran Kumar: India is changing in a big way and come
Taran Kumar: what may, whatever the world may say, we are
Taran Kumar: no longer the same, country of snake
Taran Kumar: charmers or the country of elephant riders or the whatever
Taran Kumar: way people used to talk about it. We are now a technological
Taran Kumar: power. But you're a, space superpower blasting of
Joanne Lockwood: satellites, planning moon missions, everything. So yeah.
Taran Kumar: Yes. In fact, the Indian Space Research Organization
Taran Kumar: has grown by leaps and bounds. It is
Taran Kumar: such a satisfying feeling to say
Taran Kumar: that over a period of time, we were dependent on the
Taran Kumar: developed nations for our surveillance, for our weather
Taran Kumar: forecasting and other things. And especially when it
Taran Kumar: comes to defending the sovereignty of your country.
Taran Kumar: And that is the time, most of the people, those who were
Taran Kumar: in power, they realized that we ought to have our own systems.
Taran Kumar: And because of a non aligned nature today, whatever we
Taran Kumar: are doing is purely for the growth of the
Taran Kumar: country. Mhmm. If being a military man, I can tell
Taran Kumar: you that my interests are not expansionist in
Taran Kumar: nature. If you are not coming onto my toes.
Taran Kumar: But if you push me, then I must have the ability to push you
Taran Kumar: back. In the modern world, in our connective world, in our
Joanne Lockwood: technology dependent world, we need GPS.
Joanne Lockwood: We need accurate time signals, which is delivered by GPS. We
Joanne Lockwood: need Internet connectivity. And I guess India is no different.
Joanne Lockwood: You have to have control of those assets yourself. Otherwise, you're dependent on other
Joanne Lockwood: people. No. That is that is very important for your own
Taran Kumar: survival. Otherwise, in the event of some kind
Taran Kumar: of, I would say calamity, in the
Taran Kumar: event of some kind of, problem with your neighbors
Taran Kumar: and somebody else is controlling and all your equipment goes
Taran Kumar: haywire or it is not giving you the right inputs, your
Taran Kumar: entire military effort would go in vain. So it is very
Taran Kumar: important for any nation to be self reliant
Taran Kumar: on these aspects. Then only you can defend
Taran Kumar: yourself. When you do not have this kind
Taran Kumar: of a fear that what if in the event
Taran Kumar: of something going not the way you have designed and
Taran Kumar: somebody stops this data coming to you?
Taran Kumar: Because most of your equipment is data driven. Most of your long
Taran Kumar: range weaponry system is all about how do you fix those
Taran Kumar: coordinates? And those coordinates, how do you get you get them through these GPSs,
Taran Kumar: through satellites? And this concept
Joanne Lockwood: of single time is is critically important. You've got to be within millionth of a
Joanne Lockwood: microsecond accurate. Otherwise, all business transactions,
Joanne Lockwood: banking transactions all time. Everything goes for a 6. Everything goes for
Taran Kumar: a 6. And over a period of time,
Taran Kumar: we have realized one more thing. And that is
Taran Kumar: your economic independence determines
Taran Kumar: your military might. If you're economically
Taran Kumar: superior and you want to maintain that independence of yours,
Taran Kumar: you ought to have a strong military and not the other
Taran Kumar: way around. So that is very important for us. Help help me. I'm curious
Joanne Lockwood: here. If I think about the UK, North
Joanne Lockwood: America, maybe even the US, And I think about some of the
Joanne Lockwood: challenges that businesses and society face from
Joanne Lockwood: an inclusion perspective. Yeah. We think about
Joanne Lockwood: gender. We think about ethnicity, race. We think about disability. We think
Joanne Lockwood: about LGBTQ plus as kind of the
Joanne Lockwood: big high level things. What do you think are the challenges
Joanne Lockwood: within your own country, economy and commerce
Joanne Lockwood: around that? Well, I would say that there is a
Taran Kumar: presence of differences within given settings,
Taran Kumar: whether it is concerning race, gender,
Taran Kumar: age, sexual orientation, disability. But then at the same
Taran Kumar: time, we are open to the inclusive
Taran Kumar: opportunity that the same environment extends.
Taran Kumar: It's about creating a space where any individual
Taran Kumar: or group can or feel welcomed,
Taran Kumar: respected, supported, valued. They can
Taran Kumar: participate fully in the nation building process. And that
Taran Kumar: is so important for the growth of any community organization
Taran Kumar: or nation for that matter. So we are no different.
Taran Kumar: Yes. There are certain challenges. There are certain challenges
Taran Kumar: in terms of, I would say, the legal
Taran Kumar: provisions, which are existing, because obviously we are an
Taran Kumar: offshoot of the colonial era. However,
Taran Kumar: we are also open to amending those laws. We are
Taran Kumar: open to accepting these people into the mainstream
Taran Kumar: because ultimately we cannot grow if we are
Taran Kumar: not having participation from all walks of society.
Joanne Lockwood: So you've got many, many states. I think would you say
Joanne Lockwood: 39 states or 30 20 29
Joanne Lockwood: states. You've got a a large number of
Joanne Lockwood: different languages and different religions. Is there a is
Joanne Lockwood: there a kind of historical pecking order,
Joanne Lockwood: priority, privilege amongst language, amongst
Joanne Lockwood: where you come from in the in within the continent or
Joanne Lockwood: the religion you have? Is there an inherent power base
Joanne Lockwood: amongst certain languages and religions? Well, no. When the
Taran Kumar: Indian Constitution was enshrined, although at not that point in
Taran Kumar: time, but later on, the word secular got incorporated
Taran Kumar: into the Indian constitution and we still maintain
Taran Kumar: it. We have a larger
Taran Kumar: population base of Hindus, but then Hinduism,
Taran Kumar: apart from being a religion, it is a way of life. It is,
Taran Kumar: we are very tolerant in our outlook. We celebrate
Taran Kumar: every festival with the same fervor and without any
Taran Kumar: malice, without any doubt that
Taran Kumar: we love celebrating festivals. We love
Taran Kumar: celebrating the thing called human
Taran Kumar: evolution on this planet. And for that, I have to
Taran Kumar: enjoy what my neighbors are doing. I cannot be
Taran Kumar: jealous of when they are celebrating and only be concerned about my
Taran Kumar: own celebrations. I cannot be thinking that whatever
Taran Kumar: they believe in is not right. I have to
Taran Kumar: understand why do they believe in that
Taran Kumar: thing? And is there a way I can
Taran Kumar: learn from their perspective? And that is what
Taran Kumar: Hindus do. In fact, you will not
Taran Kumar: find any Hindus who are out in
Taran Kumar: this world converting the rest of the population.
Taran Kumar: Give me one instance of people from
Taran Kumar: Hindu religion or the Hindu way of life.
Taran Kumar: People themselves come and they love
Taran Kumar: that feeling. They love that joy. They love that
Taran Kumar: freedom. They love that oneness with the nature, with the
Taran Kumar: God because of which they say that I
Taran Kumar: would love to be an ISKCON devotee or I would like to
Taran Kumar: be doing Hari Rama, Hari Krishna, whatever. These are
Taran Kumar: all, you know, we have got more than 33,000
Taran Kumar: gods and none of us is forced to follow 1 God. Means I
Taran Kumar: can I follow so many gods because ultimately we believe in
Taran Kumar: one thing that there is one supreme and something
Taran Kumar: that keeps us all in a state in which we
Taran Kumar: are when things are there, which we do not understand, how
Taran Kumar: do we try and understand them? By saying that there is some
Taran Kumar: superpower which is controlling all these things. Otherwise, we are
Taran Kumar: trying to control most of the things. We are trying to, do the
Taran Kumar: DNA understanding. We are trying to do how we can
Taran Kumar: build embryos in the deep state,
Taran Kumar: cryogenic things means we are trying to, interfere
Taran Kumar: with the way the God has created this planet.
Taran Kumar: Because we want to understand that, and that is where our inquisitively
Taran Kumar: lies. Today, there is a lot of questions that are being asked on
Taran Kumar: artificial intelligence. Whether it is right or wrong
Taran Kumar: means whether it will overtake the human race or not. Why? Because
Taran Kumar: there are so many things which we do not comprehend. We do not
Taran Kumar: know whether they are going to be a bane or boon. And that is so
Taran Kumar: important for us to understand that in our iterative
Taran Kumar: process, if things go right, we take the credit.
Taran Kumar: If things go wrong, then whom do we blame for? Then we say that,
Taran Kumar: oh, God. Yeah. God is the, excuse for things going wrong. But I
Joanne Lockwood: think that's beautiful. I think, as you said, you're not trying to convert
Joanne Lockwood: people. You're saying, this is us. Come with us if you wish.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Celebrate with us. Come and visit. Whatever. It it it it's not
Joanne Lockwood: a you say, you're not trying to instruct people,
Joanne Lockwood: but just Yeah. Exemplify being a good
Joanne Lockwood: human. We we don't tell them that my religion is superior to
Taran Kumar: yours. We never say that.
Taran Kumar: We always accept that there must be something good if you're following in
Taran Kumar: your religion. I would love to understand that.
Taran Kumar: I have studied in a Christian school, but then that was my way
Taran Kumar: of getting exposed to that particular
Taran Kumar: community. And it never interfered
Taran Kumar: with my belief. And being a military man, I
Taran Kumar: understand one thing, Joanne, and that is the religion of my
Taran Kumar: troops is my religion. I do not own my religion
Taran Kumar: or I do not wear my religion on my shoulders. I
Taran Kumar: always follow the faith that my soldiers
Taran Kumar: follow because that is something that binds us together.
Taran Kumar: So if I happen to command a Muslim unit, then
Taran Kumar: I will read namaz with them. I will not shy away from doing it.
Taran Kumar: I will not say that. No, this is not right. Or this is not correct.
Taran Kumar: Or they are infidels. No, I will follow whatever,
Taran Kumar: because my ultimate goal is to bind
Taran Kumar: with my people and face the common
Taran Kumar: challenge that is there in front of us. But when
Taran Kumar: it comes to me praying to the God in
Taran Kumar: my own private space, then I'm free to do whatever I feel like. I think
Joanne Lockwood: that your your leadership mantra that you've just explained in there is
Joanne Lockwood: is very powerful. Too often, we find leaders want
Joanne Lockwood: to dictate the culture of
Joanne Lockwood: how their their team should be. And what you're
Joanne Lockwood: doing is advocating the leader adapting to the culture
Joanne Lockwood: of the team and enriching that rather than dictating
Joanne Lockwood: that. You know, there is always a resistance to change, and
Taran Kumar: there is a management theory about it. Why I'm
Taran Kumar: talking about which is the bigger force out here. It is the culture
Taran Kumar: which is already prevailing. So as a leader, you are
Taran Kumar: 1. As officers, you are just a handful,
Taran Kumar: but your soldiers are far too many. So what is important is
Taran Kumar: that I understand where the faith of my soldiers
Taran Kumar: lie. And it is in the most
Taran Kumar: difficult circumstances I have seen that it is this
Taran Kumar: faith which helps you come back from
Taran Kumar: the brink of defeat just by believing in
Taran Kumar: that faith, by holding on to that faith, which is not
Taran Kumar: just by held by a thin hair. And
Taran Kumar: that is that can change the way we look at
Taran Kumar: life and death. We look at success and defeat, and
Taran Kumar: it is so important for us to understand that ultimately, what is
Taran Kumar: important for me is that my team, our purpose
Taran Kumar: should win. And as long as that purpose is for the larger
Taran Kumar: good of the organization nation and not for the
Taran Kumar: selfish ulterior motives, it's always
Taran Kumar: superior to any other force. You you mentioned you're a military man, and we've
Joanne Lockwood: called this episode, the battlefield to boardroom.
Joanne Lockwood: What got you into the military originally? And what what were you doing? What was
Joanne Lockwood: your trade or profession? Okay. So
Taran Kumar: I was a hotelier. I did my hotel management
Taran Kumar: and I was working in a luxury hotel. And while I was
Taran Kumar: going around this hotel business, I was a sales executive.
Taran Kumar: I used to sell my property and interact with big business
Taran Kumar: houses, tell them that why they should come. And, Jun, if
Taran Kumar: we go back 35 years in time, hotel
Taran Kumar: industry was not everyone's
Taran Kumar: cup of tea. It was a privilege of very
Taran Kumar: few and 80% of the people who were
Taran Kumar: using 5 star hotels, luxury hotels, they
Taran Kumar: were from very affluent backgrounds.
Taran Kumar: And the corporates used to frequent these
Taran Kumar: hotels and getting them on board,
Taran Kumar: staying in a hotel where you're, you would be
Taran Kumar: charging them know about $100 a night. Those days
Taran Kumar: was a big ask. So you can imagine that while doing all these
Taran Kumar: things and being successful. Lot of time we used to
Taran Kumar: have internal discussion and, I was a little bit of a gymming kind of
Taran Kumar: a guy. Not too much into gymming, but I had a good built and other
Taran Kumar: things. I used to play a lot of sports, football, especially.
Taran Kumar: So my colleagues used to say that, why don't you join army?
Taran Kumar: So that propelled me to appear for the most
Taran Kumar: difficult exam. That is the Union Public Service
Taran Kumar: Commission exam. And I did not prepare for it. I just
Taran Kumar: went applied for it. And during my, I would
Taran Kumar: say I took a vacation. I took leave.
Taran Kumar: I went on the weekend. I appeared for that exam.
Taran Kumar: Luckily, I got through. And then I cleared the most
Taran Kumar: difficult part of the selection process that is called
Taran Kumar: as SSB. SSB stands for service selection
Taran Kumar: board, and that is considered to be the toughest
Taran Kumar: psychological, physical, and a mental challenge that one has to go
Taran Kumar: through. And if you make it there, then in
Taran Kumar: fact, most of the corporates, you'll find it that Deloitte, the big
Taran Kumar: fours, they take, veterans directly into
Taran Kumar: their streams. They don't go through multiple levels of
Taran Kumar: interviews. Why? Because they have already gone through that kind of
Taran Kumar: thing when they were inducted into the
Taran Kumar: army or the armed forces. So I went through that. I
Taran Kumar: think that was the best decision that I took because it opened
Taran Kumar: up vistas of opportunity. I could play
Taran Kumar: sports. I could get into adventure. I could fire.
Taran Kumar: I could skid. It means you ask me, I, you could
Taran Kumar: do anything. The sky was the limit, whatever you wanted to follow
Taran Kumar: your dream, you could do it there. You wanted to be a
Taran Kumar: sailor. You wanted to navigate the world. You wanted to swim
Taran Kumar: across the English Channel. Means you just have to opt for
Taran Kumar: it. And then you realize that
Taran Kumar: most of the time, we are limited
Taran Kumar: in our expression of things because of our limiting
Taran Kumar: beliefs. And that was the big game
Taran Kumar: changer. And when I got injured, when I was mortally wounded,
Taran Kumar: I realized that how life passes through you.
Taran Kumar: And I was a youngster. I was just about in my mid
Taran Kumar: twenties. So it had a very profound
Taran Kumar: effect on me. And thereafter I realized that
Taran Kumar: I have to do something meaningful. So
Taran Kumar: obviously when you come back from such encounters for good or for
Taran Kumar: the bad, you change. I take it that I probably
Taran Kumar: changed for the good because my outlook towards
Taran Kumar: life changed a lot. I became more
Taran Kumar: understanding, more empathetic, more relatable to
Taran Kumar: people because I had seen that what happens when
Taran Kumar: you are very coarse in your dealing with people. You're very selfish
Taran Kumar: in your dealing with people. You're very, very limited in your
Taran Kumar: outlook when dealing with people. You're always eyeing them with suspicion
Taran Kumar: that probably they may be lying. What if they are not lying and they're
Taran Kumar: asking you the right thing? But then I do not have any
Taran Kumar: ability to measure that. My only
Taran Kumar: ability is to give them an opportunity and prove themselves
Taran Kumar: wrong. So I tried doing that. And over a
Taran Kumar: period of time, you have a spoken reputation that this particular
Taran Kumar: officer genuinely helps people. So my soldiers,
Taran Kumar: they stopped lying to me when it came to applying for leave and all those
Taran Kumar: things. This started in fact, when I volunteered
Taran Kumar: for a difficult operation and I went to my Pelton and I said
Taran Kumar: that I wanted these many people who could volunteer for a
Taran Kumar: small team operation, I was so blessed
Taran Kumar: when 5 people raise their hands. You know, it imposes
Taran Kumar: that kind of confidence in you as a young captain That when
Taran Kumar: you're going for a operation where you are not too
Taran Kumar: sure whether you would come back alive or not, at least out
Taran Kumar: of a company strength, there are 5 people who
Taran Kumar: are willing to go with you. And it is a
Taran Kumar: big ask. Today, if I ask somebody,
Taran Kumar: would you be willing to lose $500
Taran Kumar: for me? I think many people won't do it. Although
Taran Kumar: they know it that even if they lose it, they have ample opportunity
Taran Kumar: to make those $500 back. But we
Taran Kumar: can't talk in the same vein about life. Once life
Taran Kumar: is gone, you can't get it back. One bullet and you're gone.
Joanne Lockwood: Just wind back what you what you said. I've picked up on it that you,
Joanne Lockwood: you said mortally wounded. Clearly, you you you didn't die, but, you
Joanne Lockwood: were significantly wounded in in a battlefield
Joanne Lockwood: setting. Is that is that right? Absolutely. Do you wanna
Joanne Lockwood: can you tell me a bit about the conflict or the circumstance or or how
Joanne Lockwood: you were injured? Are you are you happy to talk about that? Yes. Yes. Why
Taran Kumar: not? Actually a couple of days back, we were in a high
Taran Kumar: altitude area sitting at about close to 20,000 feet.
Taran Kumar: Life was very difficult out there. And then there were a lot
Taran Kumar: of eyeball to eyeball contact and firing was going on and a lot of things
Taran Kumar: were happening. And in this melee, a day prior,
Taran Kumar: one of our post was attacked,
Taran Kumar: and one of our post officer
Taran Kumar: was mortally wounded. He did not survive.
Taran Kumar: So we were having that kind of a retaliatory shoot and all those things. And,
Taran Kumar: you know, in the military, it is very important to keep the morale motivation of
Taran Kumar: your boys alive. You have to get back
Taran Kumar: in some time frame or the other. Otherwise, your, soldier
Taran Kumar: just start feeling at a lower ebb. So
Taran Kumar: we were doing that. And while doing it,
Taran Kumar: especially when you're fighting at subzero temperatures, what happens is
Taran Kumar: if you get hit, till such time somebody doesn't tell you
Taran Kumar: that the blood is oozing out or something you don't get to know. So I
Taran Kumar: was had multiple injuries and
Taran Kumar: luckily, splinter went through my shoulder and got
Taran Kumar: lodged between my heart and the ribs. 1 was bang on
Taran Kumar: my spinal cord and there were multiple
Taran Kumar: there on my right portion of the body. And
Taran Kumar: the best part was every time I was trying to make an effort,
Taran Kumar: the blood would come out. And the moment it got
Taran Kumar: connected to the environment, which was subzero, it would freeze.
Taran Kumar: So and we were at an isolated
Taran Kumar: post where we were just I was there with my the small team
Taran Kumar: of myself and 3 more soldiers. I could not vacate
Taran Kumar: that post. So only one person
Taran Kumar: walked with me. And especially if you're walking after a day's
Taran Kumar: break, you know, in the snow, you go almost thigh deep
Taran Kumar: because snow has become very soft.
Taran Kumar: So every time you're taking a step, your thigh goes
Taran Kumar: inside. And I had to get down almost
Taran Kumar: 2,000 feet below to the point where the next post
Taran Kumar: was. And from there, people would have come and evacuated
Taran Kumar: me further to get down to that post because I was in a
Taran Kumar: position and the firing was still going on. I had to
Taran Kumar: walk and walking at those
Taran Kumar: altitudes with these kind of injuries was an herculean task. You've got
Joanne Lockwood: the cold, you've got the lack of oxygen, you've got the terrain,
Joanne Lockwood: and you've got incoming enemy fire. Absolutely.
Taran Kumar: Everything was against you. And yet you have to go
Taran Kumar: down because if you stay there long enough, you might get into
Taran Kumar: a position from where bringing you back to a
Taran Kumar: position from where you can get evacuated would be just next
Taran Kumar: to impossible because later in the night,
Taran Kumar: the wind starts blowing. It's almost like freezing to
Taran Kumar: death temperatures. And if the blizzard goes out
Taran Kumar: and you will lose your way, you might get into the enemy territory
Taran Kumar: rather than going into your own territory because everything is white.
Taran Kumar: So it's so difficult and your ropes, whichever you
Taran Kumar: have, where you can hold them and get down, they all get
Taran Kumar: covered with snow. So you lose out on so
Taran Kumar: much. So you want to make it back. And certainly, we all want
Taran Kumar: to live. So there is no denying that fact. So
Taran Kumar: I came down to that post, and then I
Taran Kumar: was made to sit on a stretcher. They offered me some
Taran Kumar: juices and other things to make up for the fluid loss.
Taran Kumar: And then a body of troops of about 8 soldiers, they carried me
Taran Kumar: because now from that altitude, once we come down, the biggest challenge
Taran Kumar: in the glaciated terrain is that there would be a lot of
Taran Kumar: crevasses. And if you have survived under the under the
Joanne Lockwood: snowfall, you you do the snow step on it. You don't know You don't know
Taran Kumar: how far would you go. So those are the kind of challenges
Taran Kumar: where you have to come out of. And
Taran Kumar: it is really remarkable. And that's why it is so important.
Taran Kumar: And I always talk about this thing that
Taran Kumar: those people, they never knew me. The people, those who were down below, they
Taran Kumar: were not from my regiment. They were not from my body of
Taran Kumar: troops. But the only threat that binded us together
Taran Kumar: were, was that we were from the
Taran Kumar: same uniform. And that is what I always tell people
Taran Kumar: that in the military, when people ask me
Taran Kumar: that how you people bind so well together, I say
Taran Kumar: that we are all brothers from different
Taran Kumar: mothers. Or sisters from another mister. They also say, yeah. That's
Taran Kumar: Absolutely. Very, very powerful. I mean, I just whilst you're talking now, I
Joanne Lockwood: was Googling away next to me. So you are
Joanne Lockwood: operating at around 20,000 feet. Everest, as an
Joanne Lockwood: example, is 29,000 feet, if I were to know. And base
Joanne Lockwood: camp is about 17 a half 1000 feet at Everest. So you are
Joanne Lockwood: operating 2 a half 1000 feet above the level of
Joanne Lockwood: Everest base camp Mhmm. In a hostile battle environment,
Joanne Lockwood: in the snow. This is not and in all in all these conditions,
Joanne Lockwood: trying to live and survive. Yes. And there's no other alternative.
Taran Kumar: You have to. And the most important thing is that
Taran Kumar: when as a young commander, you
Taran Kumar: have 3 soldiers who are looking up to you. They may be much
Taran Kumar: more elder to you in age,
Taran Kumar: but when it comes to the leadership,
Taran Kumar: they are looking up to you. And that is where
Taran Kumar: the test of time comes. And you have to rise like phoenix
Taran Kumar: from the ashes. Means you give them whatever you
Taran Kumar: can learn from them, but still they will look up to you.
Taran Kumar: And if you're not there, they will feel lost. You're you're injured.
Joanne Lockwood: As you said, you've got shrapnel lodged between your shoulder blades, your
Joanne Lockwood: ribs, your heart. You've got something in your back. You're dripping blood. The
Joanne Lockwood: blood's freezing, and you've got to get off the mountain. You've got to
Joanne Lockwood: get down to a level before there's any chance of rescue. What's
Joanne Lockwood: going through your mind? Are you how's your mind set at that point? Is it
Joanne Lockwood: survival mode? Is it worry, panic? How are you
Joanne Lockwood: coping mentally? One thing was very clear,
Taran Kumar: Joanne, and that was that if I have lived so far,
Taran Kumar: probably I will live another day. The only thing is that
Taran Kumar: I was not too sure of the kind of internal injuries that were
Taran Kumar: caused. What kind of things were happening inside? How
Taran Kumar: far deep the damage was? Means what I'm telling
Taran Kumar: you was something which I got to know when I was evacuated
Taran Kumar: by an helicopter from the base camp. And when
Taran Kumar: my x-ray was done, that is the time when the doctor told me that there
Taran Kumar: is a splinter lodged between these places. And you were
Taran Kumar: lucky. And it is just that right in the beginning, I've shared it
Taran Kumar: with you. At that point in time, when the blood was oozing out and my
Taran Kumar: body was aching, I was not too sure. I had pulled out
Taran Kumar: these splinters and these metal pieces from my body, which were
Taran Kumar: visible to me, but there were couple of them which were not.
Taran Kumar: And I was not too sure how the damage was or how
Taran Kumar: deep the internal injuries were and how fatal those were
Taran Kumar: going to be. And yes, when you start losing
Taran Kumar: blood at these altitudes where your
Taran Kumar: heart in any case is pumping at a much faster
Taran Kumar: rate because of the altitude effect. There is a
Taran Kumar: certain thing that happens. So if you are not in your right senses,
Taran Kumar: if you're not keeping yourself happy, gay, and probably
Taran Kumar: in this kind of survival mode that I am going to sail through
Taran Kumar: these difficult times. You'll realize that mostly
Taran Kumar: people, they don't die of injuries. They more or less
Taran Kumar: die of the shock effect. So I was aware of those things
Taran Kumar: and I was trying to keep myself motivated. I was
Taran Kumar: singing. I was humming something. I was doing all kinds
Taran Kumar: of antics. Probably people were thinking that he's going through, he's
Taran Kumar: hallucinating or something. But the only thing that was there in my mind
Taran Kumar: was that will I be able to meet my parents?
Taran Kumar: Will I be able to meet my fiance? Will I be able to
Taran Kumar: live my life hereafter? You're in the helicopter. You finally feel a sense
Joanne Lockwood: of safety and relief that you're you know, the helicopter
Taran Kumar: came the next day. Because in the nighttime, in the
Taran Kumar: glaciated terrain, there is no flying because everything is
Taran Kumar: white. Yes. So it's only during the daytime when you can light a
Taran Kumar: candle and they can see the smoke coming.
Taran Kumar: And then they will be able to land. But in the nighttime, it's so difficult.
Taran Kumar: So I had to sail through the night, and I
Taran Kumar: got injected 2 injections of morphine.
Taran Kumar: Otherwise, one injection is good enough to put you to sleep. They say that they
Taran Kumar: generally give 2 a 2 to an elephant. So
Taran Kumar: at that point in time, I was in such an heightened state of
Taran Kumar: anxiety, or whatever that The adrenaline,
Joanne Lockwood: your fight, flight. Was there. I was fighting.
Taran Kumar: I mean, somewhere deep within, I was not letting myself go off to
Taran Kumar: sleep or rest properly because I
Taran Kumar: was fearing probably if I'll close my eyes, probably I'll close them forever.
Taran Kumar: Maybe that fear was there at the back of my mind without knowing the
Taran Kumar: impact that was happening. So I was fighting from inside
Taran Kumar: not to get, and the second injection was given by the
Taran Kumar: doctor when we reached the base camp. The first injection was
Taran Kumar: given at the place where I came down. The second
Taran Kumar: injection was given by the doctor at that place. And then he said that
Taran Kumar: brother sleep because I am not supposed to give you the
Taran Kumar: 3rd injection. That could be fatal. So,
Taran Kumar: but then this is how our human body and the human mind is.
Taran Kumar: We behave very differently at times
Taran Kumar: erratically. Or even if it makes some sense to us,
Taran Kumar: others may not get that sense because what is going through us
Taran Kumar: is happening in a split of a second. And we are trying
Taran Kumar: to understand a lot of information, collate that information and
Taran Kumar: try and understand that. And the survival instinct is at its
Taran Kumar: peak. So you want to live another
Taran Kumar: day and probably fight a successful
Taran Kumar: battle another day. How long was the recovery? So you must have done some
Joanne Lockwood: physiotherapy, some rehabilitation. You were Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: In a bed for a while? Well, the moment I was taken to
Taran Kumar: the hospital, there was a field hospital at the base camp.
Taran Kumar: So the doctor said that we have to perform your surgeries here. Actually,
Taran Kumar: these metal objects which are inside, they have the potential of
Taran Kumar: spreading. So they don't want the infection spreading in the body
Taran Kumar: because there is gunpowder. There is a lot of things which are there inside you,
Taran Kumar: and they wanted to take out those metal, objects. And the other thing was
Taran Kumar: that in high altitude area, Joanne,
Taran Kumar: the recovery is very slow because there is lack of
Taran Kumar: oxygen. So in the absence of oxygen,
Taran Kumar: you'll find that what happened is that one injury was in the
Taran Kumar: joint where my thumb and the rest of the four
Taran Kumar: fingers where we actually have a grip, which helps us
Taran Kumar: grip. So there, I had an injury where it had pierced
Taran Kumar: through. So they were joking and telling me that now you'll not be requiring a
Taran Kumar: cup and a saucer. You can drink your tea from this place itself.
Taran Kumar: But another important aspect they told me was that they would not like to
Taran Kumar: stitch this place. Because if they stitch this place, if
Taran Kumar: they put, the stitches out here, then the movement
Taran Kumar: of my thumb and the ability to grip will
Taran Kumar: get restricted. I'll I'll may not be able to
Taran Kumar: fire again very effectively, hold the weapon very effectively.
Taran Kumar: And later on in life, because we are not going to be in army forever.
Taran Kumar: So when we come out of army, it will also impede in our other
Taran Kumar: activities. What they did was that from my thighs, there was
Taran Kumar: skin grafting that was done at that altitude itself by the
Taran Kumar: doctor, the surgeon. However, I was there for
Taran Kumar: almost a month taking antibiotics to the tune
Taran Kumar: of almost, 8 injections
Taran Kumar: every day, and they were painful. And they were
Taran Kumar: given to us through that intravenous. So when you were sleeping and
Taran Kumar: when somebody would be injecting that intravenous, no. So it was, like,
Taran Kumar: almost cold. So it was such a painful thing, no, that
Taran Kumar: cold injection getting into your bloodstream that
Taran Kumar: you'll get up. But the important thing was that after 1
Taran Kumar: month, doctor told me that either you're going to live with this
Taran Kumar: injury forever or some miracle is going to happen.
Taran Kumar: So I requested him. I said that I've already spent considerable
Taran Kumar: time at this altitude. And I think now I'm
Taran Kumar: fit to travel. So how about discharging me
Taran Kumar: and let me go and get back to the normal playing fields
Taran Kumar: and probably some recovery would happen? He said, yes. That's a
Taran Kumar: good idea. And they recommended my discharge. Although the level
Taran Kumar: of recuperation that the injuries have done was very minimal.
Taran Kumar: But against all advice, they said that probably that is the only best
Taran Kumar: option available, and you won't believe it. Within
Taran Kumar: 25 days down below, most of my injuries got healed. And
Taran Kumar: today, people only look at the scar, and they feel that what is
Taran Kumar: this nasty scar that you have at the
Taran Kumar: base of your thumb between the joints that plays?
Taran Kumar: But as you can see, and as you can, my hands are
Taran Kumar: perfectly fine. And I can hold the weapon. I can
Taran Kumar: fire. I can throttle somebody. I can do whatever I can
Taran Kumar: do. The steering of a wheel, I can catch hold
Taran Kumar: of a stick. Otherwise, all these activities would have got
Taran Kumar: badly impacted. Eventually, you you left the
Joanne Lockwood: army, the forces, and now you're working with businesses and
Joanne Lockwood: using your prior battlefield and army and
Joanne Lockwood: service career to sort of influence how you work in the business
Joanne Lockwood: world. Is that right? Yes. What happened is when I
Taran Kumar: was trying to find my own sweet spot in
Taran Kumar: this corporate world, there was a lot of learning that had come out
Taran Kumar: with. Now the most difficult part for any
Taran Kumar: military man is how it is relevant to the
Taran Kumar: corporate world. I was also grappling with the same thing
Taran Kumar: because in the military, everything is pretty much understandable.
Taran Kumar: But in the corporate world, what I've seen is that people, they struggle to
Taran Kumar: understand that. How can I make use of this
Taran Kumar: military man? What can I give
Taran Kumar: him? And most of us, we end up doing no as a security consultant,
Taran Kumar: close protection, this, that, but I can be used in
Taran Kumar: so many ways. You know, the biggest challenge that
Taran Kumar: corporates have is that they do not have a
Taran Kumar: culture of trust and teamwork.
Taran Kumar: I have seen that at very close quarters.
Taran Kumar: Everybody who's working out there, they want to
Taran Kumar: get over each other. They will not hesitate by pulling the
Taran Kumar: rug under their colleague's carpet. They can stab
Taran Kumar: somebody in their back. They can do almost everything unthinkable,
Taran Kumar: which otherwise people won't do just to progress themselves in
Taran Kumar: their civilian career or in their organization.
Taran Kumar: Because one man's meat is another man's poison. There are very limited
Taran Kumar: vacancies. There are very limited space. And hence the only way you can do
Taran Kumar: it is not by projecting yourself in the
Taran Kumar: right light, but by hook or by crook.
Taran Kumar: So you will not hesitate by taking someone else's credit.
Taran Kumar: Someone has put in the hard work, but in the end, you'll show it as
Taran Kumar: your own. You'll do all those nasty things. And then
Taran Kumar: your organization is saying that we would like to be a
Taran Kumar: fortune 500 or a fortune 100 company. How
Taran Kumar: can you be that with this kind of a work
Taran Kumar: culture? And you you use the word culture there, and that that's it comes down
Joanne Lockwood: to that as well where we often, in a diverse
Joanne Lockwood: group of people, we tend to be, as you were saying, pulling in
Joanne Lockwood: different directions where your background in the battlefield is
Joanne Lockwood: you're pulling together for one common purpose, to stay alive Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: To achieve the objective or whatever it is. And we lose that in
Joanne Lockwood: the civilian world where we're we bring our own
Joanne Lockwood: our own needs into the room, if you like, rather than the collective need. In
Taran Kumar: the corporate world, what happens is that there is a
Taran Kumar: common goal. In the military also, there is a common goal.
Taran Kumar: Unfortunately, in the military, I'm aware of what
Taran Kumar: my, when I was a platoon commander, I knew what my commanding
Taran Kumar: officer's goal was. In the corporate world, many a
Taran Kumar: times, the production department doesn't know what challenges the sales
Taran Kumar: department is having. In corporate world, many a times,
Taran Kumar: the corporate vision is not passed down to
Taran Kumar: the lowest player in the
Taran Kumar: food chain of that corporate organization. And that is
Taran Kumar: where the disconnect happens. Because you're only talking in
Taran Kumar: your own comfortable groups where you feel you're
Taran Kumar: relevant. But how do you percolate your
Taran Kumar: message down to the people? How do you give them your vision
Taran Kumar: where your company is going to be in next coming
Taran Kumar: years? How do you tell people that this is what you
Taran Kumar: are planning for them? There is no such communication that
Taran Kumar: is happening. You are supposed to be coming there,
Taran Kumar: spending your time, adding to the profitability
Taran Kumar: of the company. That is your only goal.
Taran Kumar: If you are not adding profitability to the company, you do not
Taran Kumar: exist in their scheme of things. There are so many organizations
Taran Kumar: which are I call them as, nonrevenue
Taran Kumar: generating. They are the ones which are eating revenues,
Taran Kumar: but they are so important for the growth of that organization. For example,
Taran Kumar: let's take, HR, finance,
Taran Kumar: security, but then you are
Taran Kumar: not giving them their due. Over a period of time, people
Taran Kumar: have started exerting themselves, and what was important was that how
Taran Kumar: do you build an inclusive structure? You cannot say that
Taran Kumar: they sit in the office, you know, we are the ones going out. It
Taran Kumar: is not only about revenues, although somehow,
Taran Kumar: it is a fallacy that most of the organizations, they only give
Taran Kumar: lot of credence, lot of support to
Taran Kumar: the verticals, which are generating revenues.
Taran Kumar: I understand that revenue is the sole
Taran Kumar: purpose or is very important in their entire scheme of
Taran Kumar: things. But then there are other organizations who can
Taran Kumar: equally help by reducing expenditure
Taran Kumar: because they are the ones who are eating into expenditure. So there is one
Taran Kumar: one person who is feeding everybody, but then other people, they have to also
Taran Kumar: reduce their appetite. So if they can reduce their
Taran Kumar: appetite, that also adds to
Taran Kumar: revenue generation. How about doing that? So
Taran Kumar: people don't understand that they can also look at revenue
Taran Kumar: generation by inculcating technology,
Taran Kumar: by using lot of things which are already
Taran Kumar: existing rather than getting people from outside. Why don't you promote
Taran Kumar: people from your own organization? Why are you not taking action in the right
Taran Kumar: time frame before it's too late? Because once a
Taran Kumar: person is gone, now your 6 month cycle is going to build.
Taran Kumar: And within those 6 months, you will be losing a lot of revenue. There'll be
Taran Kumar: a lot of pressure on other people. And in the bargain, they will also be
Taran Kumar: leaving or quitting the jobs because they cannot handle that
Taran Kumar: pressure. So if you had acted in the right time
Taran Kumar: space, and that is so important, but then organizations,
Taran Kumar: they don't look at it in that metrics. Their
Taran Kumar: entire focus is on I should be
Taran Kumar: generating more profitability. Profitability is important,
Taran Kumar: but then there are n number of ways where you can reduce your expenses,
Taran Kumar: and that also adds to your profitability. Yeah. I think it it's
Joanne Lockwood: using a sporting analogy. You know, if you look at think of football,
Joanne Lockwood: the person who scores the goal is not the best person to save the
Joanne Lockwood: goal, to take the corners, to do the throw ins. And Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: It's all about valuing people equally for for their
Joanne Lockwood: skills that they bring to the party and not saying, well, I'm more important because
Joanne Lockwood: I make something. Why more more important because I design
Joanne Lockwood: something or I clean something up? It Yes. Like, you know,
Taran Kumar: like, the example that you gave. In a football, striker is not very
Taran Kumar: important. The team is important. Mhmm.
Taran Kumar: If striker is not able to score, but your defense
Taran Kumar: is not good, then you will end up getting lot of goals.
Taran Kumar: And if the your opponent defense is good, how good
Taran Kumar: your striker may be. If they are not letting him score goals, then you are
Taran Kumar: on the losing end. So corporate must also understand
Taran Kumar: that we are not alone in
Taran Kumar: this organizational setup. We are working in a
Taran Kumar: collaborative environment where every person
Taran Kumar: is like a thing on a chessboard.
Taran Kumar: You should know, you know, on the chessboard, what happens when
Taran Kumar: you play the soldier, the soldier can go to the other end, and
Taran Kumar: they can make the queen come alive. So that is the role
Taran Kumar: these soldiers are playing. So if you use
Taran Kumar: them appropriately, you can be in a very strong
Taran Kumar: position over a period of time. So you have to
Taran Kumar: shift your focus only from profitability to developing
Taran Kumar: teams, developing a culture of fostering a
Taran Kumar: culture of inclusivity from all ends
Taran Kumar: so that people, they feel partnering in
Taran Kumar: the growth of an organization and not feeling that when it comes to
Taran Kumar: acknowledging their support in the organizational growth, they
Taran Kumar: don't even get a mention. You mentioned chess and the soldier at the
Joanne Lockwood: pawn as a piece. Some of it is about having the belief
Joanne Lockwood: that you can become a queen one day. You're not sat on that
Joanne Lockwood: back row. Everyone's jumping over the toy of you, running around the
Joanne Lockwood: board. You know that if you put in the hard work,
Joanne Lockwood: put in the focus that you can achieve, that's sometimes what holds us
Joanne Lockwood: back. Isn't it? Jean, during pandemic,
Taran Kumar: I happened to give a talk to a big multinational company.
Taran Kumar: And my essence of talk was security
Taran Kumar: is a game changer. Because when everything closed, the only
Taran Kumar: people holding the fort were the security guys.
Taran Kumar: Because your assets need to be protected. People
Taran Kumar: stopped coming to offices. People stopped coming to their
Taran Kumar: huge those workspaces. No? 40,000
Taran Kumar: square feet of space. It's all lying idle. And then it remained
Taran Kumar: idle for almost a year plus, 18 months
Taran Kumar: because there was a culture of work from home. And then the discussion
Taran Kumar: started on whether we should continue with work from home or to do it. And
Taran Kumar: so security people were working there. So I said
Taran Kumar: that who's the first person when a visitor comes to
Taran Kumar: any premises? Who's the first person that
Taran Kumar: he engages with? So the VP,
Taran Kumar: everybody said security. I said then
Taran Kumar: when he's lost in the lobby, whom does he reach out to? They
Taran Kumar: said security. I said, when he wants to get on a
Taran Kumar: floor, whom does he reach out to? Security. When he's
Taran Kumar: leaving the place, whom does he reach out to? Security.
Taran Kumar: So security happens to be the first and the last point of
Taran Kumar: contact with the visitor in a premise. And you are
Taran Kumar: saying that security is not integral to your business
Taran Kumar: continuity. Please rewrite your books.
Taran Kumar: You go to Disneyland. Security is not just doing security.
Taran Kumar: They're also acting as guides. They're also acting as navigating
Taran Kumar: people where to go. They're also acting as information
Taran Kumar: booth, walking information booth. People come and ask
Taran Kumar: them, can you help me? I want to go this place. He'll say yes. Here's
Taran Kumar: you have to go. So you cannot
Taran Kumar: help them. Now imagine if that security person turns around and
Taran Kumar: says, I'm supposed to be standing here. I'm not supposed to give you any
Taran Kumar: information. Where do you get additional people from?
Taran Kumar: You go to certain places, you'll find that security is doubling up,
Taran Kumar: tripling up as multiple
Taran Kumar: information, reception, everything means they are not sitting behind the reception,
Taran Kumar: but they are doing almost everything that is to facilitate
Taran Kumar: the work culture in that particular setup. And that
Taran Kumar: is so important. Why can't we do it with other
Taran Kumar: back of the house organizations or verticals?
Taran Kumar: We can do with them also. We have to make them relevant
Taran Kumar: into the whole scheme of things. We can't just neglect them.
Taran Kumar: No, you're only supposed to do the bookkeeping of accounts. No,
Taran Kumar: they can give you some valuable inputs about how finances
Taran Kumar: should be held, how you are using your finances, how you have
Taran Kumar: used it in the last quarter. What has been the progress
Taran Kumar: in previous 5 years, how you can
Taran Kumar: leverage that information to grow your business this
Taran Kumar: year. This is the time when we grow business.
Taran Kumar: This is the time we start developing our business because they have
Taran Kumar: all the data that this is how the sales
Taran Kumar: started increasing. And if you start deriving those datas
Taran Kumar: and not letting it stay with the sales team or the product
Taran Kumar: team. In fact, once during one such visit to a
Taran Kumar: manufacturing facility, I realized that
Taran Kumar: another good example that I'm sharing with you. The sales team had the capacity
Taran Kumar: of selling x amount of products in a
Taran Kumar: day and x amount of products in a month.
Taran Kumar: However, Joan, they
Taran Kumar: were not able to sell the same kind of thing
Taran Kumar: over a period of time. So what happened
Taran Kumar: is I can so at that
Taran Kumar: particular place, what I realized was that the sales team had the ability
Taran Kumar: to sell particular quantity of items in a month
Taran Kumar: on a daily basis. And the production team had the ability
Taran Kumar: to produce certain similar kind of items in a
Taran Kumar: month. Now the beauty of this entire exercise
Taran Kumar: was that the production manager or the project manager
Taran Kumar: became a bit more enthusiastic and he started
Taran Kumar: producing things in overdrive. Much beyond
Taran Kumar: the capacity of the sales team to sell, although he was doing a
Taran Kumar: great thing by increasing the productivity, but in the
Taran Kumar: bargain, instead of making more revenues,
Taran Kumar: company was investing more in their warehousing
Taran Kumar: because they had to now stack these items somewhere. So it was
Taran Kumar: incurring losses for the company. And this
Taran Kumar: particular thing of exuberance on behalf of this production
Taran Kumar: team was actually leading company to disaster.
Taran Kumar: So when we were having this interaction, I said that, look, you
Taran Kumar: have to understand. And that is where the interaction between
Taran Kumar: these two teams is very important. Similarly, some
Taran Kumar: places, a production team creates a
Taran Kumar: product. The sales team gets the first hand
Taran Kumar: feedback from the consumers, but the production team doesn't listen
Taran Kumar: to that feedback. So they are busy creating something unique,
Taran Kumar: which is not required by the sales team to sell in the first
Taran Kumar: go. And the feedback of the sales team is not being listened to by
Taran Kumar: them. Hence, there is a big gap that is existing. And because
Taran Kumar: of this big gap, what is happening? You have an overhang of
Taran Kumar: inventory. So production team is saying that sales is unable to sell
Taran Kumar: this beautiful product that we have created. But, friend, nobody
Taran Kumar: wants this product. Please listen to the voice of the customer. These are the
Taran Kumar: kind of things that and, you know, why I talk about this
Taran Kumar: battlefield to boardroom things is because there are 2
Taran Kumar: things, 2 aspects that I do when I'm leading my men
Taran Kumar: into battle. 1 is that I give them orders.
Taran Kumar: Orders are very formal instructions I give them.
Taran Kumar: But before we get into the battle, there is
Taran Kumar: something called as briefing, which is very much informal.
Taran Kumar: And during the briefing time, my order group people
Taran Kumar: and the key personals who are supposed to be
Taran Kumar: handling their teams. They're all part of that particular discussion,
Taran Kumar: and they are free to challenge
Taran Kumar: the plan that has been made. And why do we do
Taran Kumar: it? We do it because none of us
Taran Kumar: as commanding officer or as leaders want to have blood of
Taran Kumar: our own soldiers on our hands. So we have to take that
Taran Kumar: tough call. So we give them that opportunity, that find fault in my
Taran Kumar: plan. And as a team, let's resolve it out
Taran Kumar: here itself. We are not going to leave it to that we will start
Taran Kumar: doing it. But the kind of iteration that we do on that
Taran Kumar: plan while having this kind of an informal discussion,
Taran Kumar: one thing I realized on the very first contact with the enemy,
Taran Kumar: Joanne, the best laid out plan goes for a
Taran Kumar: 6. It's pretty true. But
Taran Kumar: how hard you have worked? You work on n
Taran Kumar: number of contingencies. You work on n plus one contingencies, and
Taran Kumar: then you realize that it is n plus 1 plus 1 that now
Taran Kumar: you're forced to look into. So how do you come out of
Taran Kumar: that sticky situation? You come out of that sticky situation
Taran Kumar: because you have taken a deep dive into
Taran Kumar: it. You know, and as a commander on ground,
Taran Kumar: now you are well aware of the kind of
Taran Kumar: decisions that you are supposed to make. And in the battlefield, we
Taran Kumar: are operating in time and space zone. So I am supposed
Taran Kumar: to take a decision which is much faster than
Taran Kumar: my adversaries' ability to respond. So if I
Taran Kumar: do that, I happen to be the winner. And that
Joanne Lockwood: that's the key, isn't it? Because in the same way that your plan doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: survive first contact, the enemy's plan doesn't survive first contact.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's how you adapt, how you change, and how
Joanne Lockwood: you interpret that that change that wins the day, isn't it? Exactly what
Joanne Lockwood: you're saying there. Absolutely. Adaptability. And in the
Taran Kumar: corporate world because most of the corporate world is taking the terminologies
Taran Kumar: from the military sense. Like, they talk
Taran Kumar: about, I want to grab this much of market share. Now grab is
Taran Kumar: a military word. I want to penetrate into this region. Penetrate is
Taran Kumar: a military word. So they are always using the
Taran Kumar: jargons which are more or less taken from the
Taran Kumar: military way of life. And when you're doing it, you must
Taran Kumar: understand that how well you have planned. If you're only looking at
Taran Kumar: one particular aspect and that happens to be the profitability, then
Taran Kumar: you will lose sight with other important aspects,
Taran Kumar: which can help you bail out of a sticky situation. And
Taran Kumar: that is so important. So involve everybody into your corporate
Taran Kumar: boardroom, make everybody plan those things.
Taran Kumar: I happened to come across a very interesting thing recently on
Taran Kumar: LinkedIn where one dog food company
Taran Kumar: recognized one of their housekeeping staff for carrying out a
Taran Kumar: beautiful display of their products,
Taran Kumar: which led to immense
Taran Kumar: growth in their, off the shelf offerings.
Taran Kumar: And that opened my eyes to one thing, and this is something
Taran Kumar: which I always tell people. When you're openly
Taran Kumar: inviting your staff, your
Taran Kumar: people from different verticals who are working in the
Taran Kumar: same space, they may be having some very fantastic ideas which can be
Taran Kumar: put into practice. You can give them okay. This
Taran Kumar: particular shelf would be made by the finance department. This
Taran Kumar: particular shelf will be made by the housekeeping department. And this particular
Taran Kumar: shelf will be made by the retail department. And then you'll see that
Taran Kumar: retail department is using their line of
Taran Kumar: thought, which is very much aligned to the way things are taught to them in
Taran Kumar: management schools. Whereas the sales, whereas
Taran Kumar: the housekeeping department and the finance department would be doing it from a
Taran Kumar: totally different approach. They would be looking at it. What is it that
Taran Kumar: people from our line of work they would be looking
Taran Kumar: at? What is it that is going to appeal to people? And in the
Taran Kumar: bargain, we'll see that these two streams will have more
Taran Kumar: people coming and picking up stuff from
Taran Kumar: their shelves Then what they would be picking up from the shelf of the
Taran Kumar: retail stores. That's a very high possibility
Taran Kumar: area just by inviting people from different
Taran Kumar: verticals to come and participate. And they also start feeling that
Taran Kumar: look, I'm relevant in this organization. And it gives a challenge to
Taran Kumar: the teams which are already working there. So this kind of
Taran Kumar: involvement of people from different verticals can
Taran Kumar: lead to a very cohesive team building
Taran Kumar: where people can provide
Taran Kumar: invaluable advice to others. And nobody will say, you
Taran Kumar: know, it's not your job. It's my domain.
Taran Kumar: No. It's everyone's domain because this is our company. And this has
Joanne Lockwood: been absolutely fascinating conversation. And for you to have
Joanne Lockwood: to share some of the well, there's very personal intimate
Joanne Lockwood: details about your injury, your, your time in the
Joanne Lockwood: military, and then how you've applied that learning
Joanne Lockwood: to the corporate world as well. And, you know, use both those exchanges and those
Joanne Lockwood: analogies. I think it's been really powerful. So how come
Joanne Lockwood: the listeners, how come the people listening and tuning in today get
Joanne Lockwood: hold of you? What's a good way to make contact? Well, I'm
Taran Kumar: generally known as force multiplier on LinkedIn and
Taran Kumar: everywhere. I have my own website, which is force multipliers.in.
Taran Kumar: And if somebody's wondering what force multiplier means, it
Taran Kumar: means that it gives you the ability of achieving
Taran Kumar: far greater things with than without
Taran Kumar: it. So in the military parlance, if I have
Taran Kumar: to destroy a squadron of tanks and tanks are supposed to be very potent
Taran Kumar: force, I just need to have one attack helicopter.
Taran Kumar: And that one attack helicopter happens to be the force
Taran Kumar: multiplier. So that was putting the things in the right
Taran Kumar: perspective. You can also reach out to me on Instagram where
Taran Kumar: I'm, again, force_ multipliers.
Taran Kumar: My email ID is tarun@forcemultipliers.in
Taran Kumar: because I'm from India. And most important is that I have
Taran Kumar: my own podcast, which is known as Bulland Hosley.
Taran Kumar: Literally in English, it means in high spirits. And the reason
Taran Kumar: why I do this podcast is because I'm hugely
Taran Kumar: passionate about the concept of human brilliance.
Taran Kumar: We are all brilliant in some way or the other. And if we can
Taran Kumar: bring that thing to life, there is a lot to learn from
Taran Kumar: almost each one of us. Like I
Taran Kumar: benefited a lot in the bargain today, Joanne, by having this
Taran Kumar: conversation with you, How to ask intelligent questions and
Taran Kumar: rather than having a interview kind of a thing, how
Taran Kumar: about having a conversation? Thank you. I can't wait to listen back to this and,
Joanne Lockwood: thank you so much for your time. And, it'd be fascinating to get to know
Joanne Lockwood: you as well. So thank you so much. It was indeed a pleasure. Have a
Taran Kumar: wonderful day. As we bring this
Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest
Joanne Lockwood: gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your
Joanne Lockwood: ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing
Joanne Lockwood: community, driving real change. Share this journey with
Joanne Lockwood: friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices
Joanne Lockwood: that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a
Joanne Lockwood: vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.