Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 146
Joanne Lockwood: with the title, championing
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion through sport. And I have the absolute
Joanne Lockwood: honor and privilege to welcome Dominique Dehaene.
Joanne Lockwood: Dominique is the national director of Special Olympics
Joanne Lockwood: Belgium and a devoted father, and he is
Joanne Lockwood: on a special mission to promote the social
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion of people with intellectual disabilities.
Joanne Lockwood: And when I asked Dominique to describe his superpower, he said, turning passion
Joanne Lockwood: into purpose by driving inclusion, awareness,
Joanne Lockwood: and opportunity for people with intellectual disabilities.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Dominique. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having
Dominique Dehaene: me. How did I get on with your name? Did I did I get it
Joanne Lockwood: close? Correct. Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for that. Bit
Joanne Lockwood: nervous there. It's, it's the Flemish pronunciation because you're based in
Joanne Lockwood: Belgium if obviously, as the national director of Special Olympics. You're based in
Joanne Lockwood: Belgium? Correct. Office is based in Brussels, but I myself
Dominique Dehaene: live on the French border. I always say I live in the last
Dominique Dehaene: house in Belgium, so my my neighbor is French, so,
Dominique Dehaene: very peculiar way of of living. We live on
Dominique Dehaene: the countryside, so it's a commute every day from 160
Dominique Dehaene: kilometers single way, but, it's worth it. I like
Dominique Dehaene: my job and I like, where I live, so, best of
Dominique Dehaene: both worlds. Best of both worlds. Yeah. So I guess you're also
Joanne Lockwood: the first house as well as the last house. Correct. Yeah. I didn't
Dominique Dehaene: didn't quite think of that. So, yeah, it it
Dominique Dehaene: is. It is. Fantastic. So you
Joanne Lockwood: champion inclusion through sport,
Joanne Lockwood: with a special focus on intellectual disabilities. Do you want to tell us a bit
Joanne Lockwood: more about what do you mean by the term intellectual disabilities?
Dominique Dehaene: Well, it's it's, you know, we all know someone with, with an
Dominique Dehaene: intellectual disability if we start thinking about it. We all know
Dominique Dehaene: someone with with an intellectual disability.
Dominique Dehaene: Within Special Olympics, it's, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: defined as someone with an IQ not higher
Dominique Dehaene: than 75, but, you know, it could have been 76, 74,
Dominique Dehaene: but you know, that's the definition we use,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, and there's a whole range of people with intellectual disabilities, like there's a
Dominique Dehaene: whole range of people
Dominique Dehaene: without intellectual disabilities. You know, we have people with
Dominique Dehaene: autism, people with Down syndrome, you know, the, I
Dominique Dehaene: would say the classic people with intellectual disability. And
Dominique Dehaene: so what we do is, well, our aim
Dominique Dehaene: is to, to convince people not to look at their
Dominique Dehaene: disability, but look beyond their disability and look at their talents.
Dominique Dehaene: And we strive indeed for an inclusive society
Dominique Dehaene: where people with intellectual disabilities, anyone
Dominique Dehaene: else can, can play a full role in,
Dominique Dehaene: regarding their talents and, disregarding, I would say their
Dominique Dehaene: disabilities. And for us, the means to get
Dominique Dehaene: there is sports because sports,
Dominique Dehaene: it unifies people, we have what we call unified sports as
Dominique Dehaene: well, where people with intellectual disabilities play together with people
Dominique Dehaene: without intellectual disabilities. But we try
Dominique Dehaene: to convince people with intellectual disabilities to do sports and
Dominique Dehaene: through sports, they work on their health, also on mental health.
Dominique Dehaene: They get much more self confidence. We have seen people
Dominique Dehaene: change during the course of years. They were very, very shy,
Dominique Dehaene: would not speak in front of public, would not even engage any
Dominique Dehaene: conversation, would now, you know, give interviews in front of
Dominique Dehaene: cameras, etcetera. So it's really about self confidence
Dominique Dehaene: through sports and then showing other people what these people with
Dominique Dehaene: IDD are capable of, not only in sports, but also in
Dominique Dehaene: everyday life. So, we work not only with athletes, not only for
Dominique Dehaene: athletes, we work with athletes, with people with IDD, and
Dominique Dehaene: our goal is getting to a
Dominique Dehaene: full inclusion of people with IDD. Yeah, just for anybody who's listening who
Joanne Lockwood: hasn't heard of that. Not to talk about people with
Dominique Dehaene: intellectual disabilities all the time, so, I'll use the term IDD.
Joanne Lockwood: IDD. Yeah. So I'm I'm aware of the term ASD, autistic
Joanne Lockwood: spectrum disorder Yeah. Or diagnosis or whatever phrase
Joanne Lockwood: because sometimes the word disorder can
Joanne Lockwood: it implies a stereotype as well, doesn't it? It sort of implies there's something wrong
Joanne Lockwood: with you. It's not there's something wrong with you. You're absolutely perfect as
Joanne Lockwood: you are. You just have a a different skill set.
Dominique Dehaene: It's about intellectual and developmental disabilities. You
Dominique Dehaene: know, it's the development in which is different,
Dominique Dehaene: let's say. So Yep. Correct. Excuse me. So it's avoiding the
Joanne Lockwood: word disorder, medicalizing it, pathologizing it. It's
Dominique Dehaene: Correct. Still examining the stigma. People have a different characteristic.
Dominique Dehaene: Correct. Like we all do, but there's somewhat more
Dominique Dehaene: outspoken, I would say. I myself have, because you
Dominique Dehaene: mentioned it, devoted father. I try to be. I'm a father who's not
Dominique Dehaene: very who can be pretty absent in
Dominique Dehaene: our household, but, you know, I, the time I spend
Dominique Dehaene: with my family, I make it real quality time. We have
Dominique Dehaene: our son, ourselves, a son with autism,
Dominique Dehaene: his IQ would be 77, so he's not really, he's not
Dominique Dehaene: categorized as a person with intellectual disability, but,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, we know, autism and
Dominique Dehaene: the challenges it brings, but also the advantages it
Dominique Dehaene: brings. You look at the world differently through the eyes of a
Dominique Dehaene: person with autism, especially when you're so close
Dominique Dehaene: to him, so it opens your mind, it
Dominique Dehaene: opens your perspective on some ideas you have,
Dominique Dehaene: so it opens your perspective on the world. You know,
Dominique Dehaene: initially because it's something that crosses your path,
Dominique Dehaene: which you're not expecting, so because mostly it was, he was our
Dominique Dehaene: first born as well, so it's something you don't expect and
Dominique Dehaene: all of a sudden it's there in your life. You can't deny it
Dominique Dehaene: if you would like to deny it, but yeah, it's something
Dominique Dehaene: you have to deal with and you deal with it and I had the last
Dominique Dehaene: Saturday, I did a presentation with my son
Dominique Dehaene: together. We presented our story, well, the story of our family.
Dominique Dehaene: He spoke in front of a public of 50 people about his life and
Dominique Dehaene: it was heartwarming to see where
Dominique Dehaene: well, let's say we got him, he got himself. We always had,
Dominique Dehaene: and I'm trying to do this for the people we're working for now, people with
Dominique Dehaene: ID. Let's not look
Dominique Dehaene: at the limits or the limitations on beforehand. You know,
Dominique Dehaene: it's, if you always say, no, no, no, that will not be possible
Dominique Dehaene: because of the disability.
Dominique Dehaene: Yeah. You will never get anywhere. Just go and see where the
Dominique Dehaene: limits are and if if you meet the limits, then you know,
Dominique Dehaene: okay, this is as far as we can go, but at least you
Dominique Dehaene: will have reached that limit and you will not have
Dominique Dehaene: stayed at the beginning and not have reached
Dominique Dehaene: anything. And for some, the limits are pretty close. For others, they
Dominique Dehaene: will be further away, but you know,
Dominique Dehaene: like anyone else, just try to make the best of the
Dominique Dehaene: talents you have and try to, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, put the limits a little further away always. And second
Dominique Dehaene: thing, me and my wife always did, we were always very
Dominique Dehaene: open about our son's disability, autism, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: it's not something you have to hide or put away.
Dominique Dehaene: My wife is very active on Facebook. I always say if,
Dominique Dehaene: my wife didn't, put anything on Facebook during 2
Dominique Dehaene: days, Mark Zuckerberg calls just to see what's going on.
Dominique Dehaene: So, now she's very active, but we share, you know, the good stories, but also
Dominique Dehaene: the bad stories. You know, when her son had a meltdown and
Dominique Dehaene: there was a crisis, you know, we're being open about
Dominique Dehaene: it, not to
Dominique Dehaene: ridicule him or, but just to say, yes, this is
Dominique Dehaene: what life is also about, but it's also about going to a
Dominique Dehaene: restaurant and my son at 8, 9 years old,
Dominique Dehaene: passing by all the tables and wishing everybody a good
Dominique Dehaene: meal where the first looks are you, what the hell, and then you see people,
Dominique Dehaene: actually, why don't we do this kind of thing more often and wish
Dominique Dehaene: everybody the best or a good meal or anything, be more
Dominique Dehaene: friendly and more open to each other. So there's a lot to
Dominique Dehaene: learn from people with IDD, and that's what we're trying to
Dominique Dehaene: do through sports. When you were talking, I was thinking, my mind was
Joanne Lockwood: racing on, thinking, when you said something about, you know, your son's
Joanne Lockwood: IQ is around 77, the IDD is around 75
Joanne Lockwood: as as the threshold. And what we we've gotta be
Joanne Lockwood: careful of if we don't set our expectations on their capability.
Joanne Lockwood: Because you you got me thinking, so, I mean, I don't know what my IQ
Joanne Lockwood: is. Let me let me say it's 140 or something. I don't know. Is that
Joanne Lockwood: typical, I guess? I I hang out with people who have a super high
Joanne Lockwood: IQ. They're they're chess world grandmasters, and their IQ is 175.
Joanne Lockwood: Would they how would I feel if they were judging my 140 IQ
Joanne Lockwood: against their their world chess champions, almost dismissing my
Joanne Lockwood: capability of intellectual reasoning versus their own? I'd be
Joanne Lockwood: pretty upset. So as you as you were talking about,
Joanne Lockwood: I completely understand what you're saying there in terms of we we
Joanne Lockwood: can't set our limitations on our beliefs about someone's capability.
Joanne Lockwood: We have to almost embrace their opportunity
Joanne Lockwood: to be who they are and celebrate their wins and
Joanne Lockwood: encourage them to do better, to growth to grow within their capabilities. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think without sounding benevolent and sort of kind of too
Joanne Lockwood: maternal here. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because there are this getting
Dominique Dehaene: back to the the the the sports aspect,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, what we do, we are an Olympic organization,
Dominique Dehaene: worldwide Olympic organization. You know, we have the regular Olympics,
Dominique Dehaene: we have Paralympics, then there's special Olympics for people with intellectual
Dominique Dehaene: disabilities, but this is sports, this is competition. This is not
Dominique Dehaene: just people with IDD, oh, look at them, how cute they are, they're doing
Dominique Dehaene: sports as well. No, this is competition. They train to be in our
Dominique Dehaene: national games, they train to win a gold medal, they're very
Dominique Dehaene: excited when they win a medal, they're very disappointed when they
Dominique Dehaene: don't win a medal, and I have to correct something
Dominique Dehaene: because a lot of people always think, yeah, yeah, within Special
Dominique Dehaene: Olympics, everyone wins a medal. No, that's not true. Everyone
Dominique Dehaene: gets a medal, but there's only 1 bronze, 1 silver and 1 gold
Dominique Dehaene: medal, so they learn to win, they learn to lose, they
Dominique Dehaene: learn successes and disappointments. So it's
Dominique Dehaene: just like any other sportsman or sportswoman, this
Dominique Dehaene: is what they do. But just, we have our
Dominique Dehaene: own Olympic oath, which is let me win.
Dominique Dehaene: If I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt. And I
Dominique Dehaene: think that's something we should all live by
Dominique Dehaene: in daily life. We are not always successful in
Dominique Dehaene: what we try to achieve. Some things work,
Dominique Dehaene: some other things don't, but it's sometimes
Dominique Dehaene: okay to fail if only you try, so that's the
Dominique Dehaene: spirit we see with our athletes.
Dominique Dehaene: Just an anecdote. I wasn't there, but in 2023,
Dominique Dehaene: our athletes came back from the World Games in Berlin, so we have
Dominique Dehaene: World Games as well, where people like the Olympics, people from all
Dominique Dehaene: over the world come together to compete in sports.
Dominique Dehaene: And some athletes, you know, they gain few gold medals
Dominique Dehaene: and let's say someone had 4 gold medals. We saw someone
Dominique Dehaene: with 3 silver medals. I don't have a silver medal. Would you like to exchange
Dominique Dehaene: your medal for my gold medal? So, you know, they compete
Dominique Dehaene: for it. They win. They, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, they're very glad to win. In the end,
Dominique Dehaene: it's just sports and it's relative. It's the friendship
Dominique Dehaene: and the bonding is, and and self confidence and and the
Dominique Dehaene: growing is at least as important as as the competition. And that's
Dominique Dehaene: something I think we can all we can all learn from how they lift
Dominique Dehaene: things and and We had, our 2 children,
Joanne Lockwood: best part 30 years ago. So they're in their thirties now. And just after
Joanne Lockwood: our daughter was born in 1992, our family friends, they had
Joanne Lockwood: their son. And their son was born with Downes.
Joanne Lockwood: We, as 2 families, we we went on holiday together. We used to go
Joanne Lockwood: camping together and hang out a lot. Their son
Joanne Lockwood: was fully part of our our family group and our our
Joanne Lockwood: friendship group, We and I I I believe I I became a better person
Joanne Lockwood: through knowing him, and our children became better people through knowing
Joanne Lockwood: him. And he was just part of a part of the team. He
Joanne Lockwood: had different needs. He he ate differently. His capabilities
Joanne Lockwood: weren't as great. He had, he got a fast pass at the theme parks
Joanne Lockwood: instead of having to wait. So he had some bonuses as far as our children
Joanne Lockwood: are concerned. But, yeah, I think I got to
Joanne Lockwood: learn that Downes wasn't a disability. It was just
Joanne Lockwood: he had a different way of enjoying his life. And he laughed. He cried. He
Joanne Lockwood: got excited, and he he won and and and loved loved being
Joanne Lockwood: part of things. And and he's now in his 30s. He
Joanne Lockwood: has a job. He still lives with his parents because I think that is inevitably
Joanne Lockwood: the way it's gonna be whilst there's enough capability to look after him. But, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, he he has a very productive life, and he has a girlfriend and does
Joanne Lockwood: stuff. And I think if we look back for even
Joanne Lockwood: 40 years, people were written off. They'd
Joanne Lockwood: almost said, you're you you this is as far as you can go. You
Joanne Lockwood: have to live in a home. You have to be in 2nd class schooling. You
Joanne Lockwood: have to be marginalized. But I think,
Joanne Lockwood: correct me if I'm wrong, but the Special Olympics, Paralympics
Joanne Lockwood: sport is is putting people in a better light
Joanne Lockwood: where people are just part of society, and we we embrace
Joanne Lockwood: them. Exactly. Exactly. Well, last year well, this year when
Dominique Dehaene: during our national games, I had one volunteer, our oldest volunteer
Dominique Dehaene: because we work a lot with volunteers, of course, it's not, you know, we need
Dominique Dehaene: volunteers to organize the activities. I think this
Dominique Dehaene: man was 78, 79, something like that, so he was
Dominique Dehaene: there from in the beginning, especially because Belgium started
Dominique Dehaene: in 1979, and he said
Dominique Dehaene: exactly that, he said, yeah, in the beginning we were
Dominique Dehaene: afraid of these people. You know, it's always a bit an awkward moment
Dominique Dehaene: if you ran into some of them and then, you know, yeah, we were a
Dominique Dehaene: bit scared. He was very open about it and like I said, 4 years ago,
Dominique Dehaene: we just, as you say, we just put them away in a home and that
Dominique Dehaene: was it. Now he says, if you, if you walk 10 meters in our
Dominique Dehaene: national games, you get 15 high fives. It's they're, they're, they're all there. They're all
Dominique Dehaene: very enthusiastic. You get hugs, you get high fives. Everyone loves each
Dominique Dehaene: other. Everyone respects each other. So we we've come a long way. We
Dominique Dehaene: can't deny that we've come a long way. And I think special in
Dominique Dehaene: these worldwide has played an important role in that
Dominique Dehaene: and still will play an important role in the
Dominique Dehaene: future, but there is still a long way to go.
Dominique Dehaene: You know, regarding employment, not all of our athletes, not all people
Dominique Dehaene: with intellectual disabilities get the chance to, yeah,
Dominique Dehaene: do a job they like, or they're actually good at. You know,
Dominique Dehaene: people are still, companies are still a bit reluctant to employ
Dominique Dehaene: people with intellectual disabilities. It's not always easy. It
Dominique Dehaene: comes with challenges. Let's be honest about it, but you
Dominique Dehaene: know, they can overcome the challenges they live with their whole
Dominique Dehaene: life, so why would a company not be able to overcome
Dominique Dehaene: their challenges with them? And just that little,
Dominique Dehaene: everyone needs, has some specific
Dominique Dehaene: needs within their job or, you know, where no one
Dominique Dehaene: is the same as anyone else, so, you know, there's, they come
Dominique Dehaene: with a little more challenges, nothing that can be
Dominique Dehaene: overcome with little help or the good mindset
Dominique Dehaene: from, companies or institutions or
Dominique Dehaene: whatever. So, yeah, I always think
Dominique Dehaene: they live with these challenges every
Dominique Dehaene: day, so how hard can it be for us to just
Dominique Dehaene: adapt just a little to, overcome
Dominique Dehaene: these challenges with them? Can be that hard, can it?
Joanne Lockwood: We have a cafe locally, a a social enterprise cafe,
Joanne Lockwood: which is exclusively staffed by people
Joanne Lockwood: with IDD, I guess you you describe them. And there's about there's a
Joanne Lockwood: small team of them. I they probably have one
Joanne Lockwood: supervisor who is there to help them with money or
Joanne Lockwood: other other needs or, I think, maybe sharp knives or or things
Joanne Lockwood: where there's potentially a danger or where things can go wrong. But
Joanne Lockwood: they are warm, friendly, productive.
Joanne Lockwood: They work as a team. It's a joy to be there. And I I'm
Joanne Lockwood: aware that there are other social enterprises, certainly in the UK, where
Joanne Lockwood: people are doing productive work. Not our benevolence.
Joanne Lockwood: These are profit making, sustainable small businesses.
Dominique Dehaene: Correct. Giving people a a a purpose a bit. Like you said about sport,
Joanne Lockwood: it's giving people a purpose. That's what we need as humans. We need a purpose
Joanne Lockwood: and a passion and something to drive us forward, don't we? Exactly. Now I don't
Dominique Dehaene: wanna talk about my son all the time, but he's just in that phase now.
Dominique Dehaene: So he finished school in June, which was already a
Dominique Dehaene: big achievement, not easy because he was in the last 3 years
Dominique Dehaene: of secondary school, he was, you know, in a normal school,
Dominique Dehaene: not another school for people with IDD, which was quite a challenge,
Dominique Dehaene: so now he's looking for a job, but that takes time,
Dominique Dehaene: But you know, in September, after 3, 4 months, I just,
Dominique Dehaene: we as parents said, you can't stay home forever, you have to do
Dominique Dehaene: something, you know, he walks every day, so he gets out,
Dominique Dehaene: that's not the point. But he started in
Dominique Dehaene: Superheroes, it's called, so it's also with people with IDD where they
Dominique Dehaene: serve soup and, with some bread, simple, simple things,
Dominique Dehaene: but it keeps him occupied. We would all get
Dominique Dehaene: sick if we just stayed home for the rest of our lives without
Dominique Dehaene: saying it can happen, of course, but you gotta have a purpose
Dominique Dehaene: as you say, and maybe just one more anecdote about
Dominique Dehaene: my son. A Few weeks ago, he had difficulties getting out of bed,
Dominique Dehaene: so my wife said, yeah, she felt something was wrong, but
Dominique Dehaene: she didn't want to insist not to go into meltdown,
Dominique Dehaene: so she left him alone. She left the house and
Dominique Dehaene: then a a few hours later, we get a message from
Dominique Dehaene: his supervisor, a text that he sent her
Dominique Dehaene: saying, yeah, I was very stressed out this morning. I was
Dominique Dehaene: afraid to come to work because I don't socially, I don't
Dominique Dehaene: connect very well socially. I don't know the subjects you're talking
Dominique Dehaene: about at noon. You know, they, they, I don't sympathise with the,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, I don't feel these subjects. And then I feel obliged
Dominique Dehaene: to talk with you, but I don't. And then maybe he will be thinking
Dominique Dehaene: he's not interested, etcetera. So it was one big stress in his head,
Dominique Dehaene: but despite that, he said, no, I can't flee from the
Dominique Dehaene: stress. So he took the, well, he took the bus, which
Dominique Dehaene: is already a 4 kilometers walk from our home. He took the bus, he
Dominique Dehaene: went to work, explained to his supervisor what the problem was
Dominique Dehaene: and they worked it out. So how many
Dominique Dehaene: people without IDD would do such a
Dominique Dehaene: thing? They would or go to work
Dominique Dehaene: and stress out all day without even touching the
Dominique Dehaene: subject with their colleagues or supervisors or as
Dominique Dehaene: it happens as well and unfortunately people go in stress
Dominique Dehaene: and burn out, etcetera, etcetera. So he was, you know, I would
Dominique Dehaene: say emotionally and intellectually very
Dominique Dehaene: bright to handle the situation as, as he did. So, yeah,
Dominique Dehaene: something else we can learn from these people is being open,
Dominique Dehaene: being, open about emotions or feelings or
Dominique Dehaene: stress or or positive things as well, of course. So, Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I know many people with social anxiety,
Joanne Lockwood: extreme introversion, limiting beliefs, imposter syndrome, which is
Joanne Lockwood: debilitating, or anxiety of using an escalator or
Joanne Lockwood: a lift or crossing the road. It it doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: come with IQ. It comes with your own
Joanne Lockwood: limiting beliefs, whatever they may be, wherever your red line of fear
Joanne Lockwood: is. It's it's in all of us. We all have our I can't go
Joanne Lockwood: there things. Yeah. It's it it doesn't mean to say that someone with
Joanne Lockwood: IDD or borderline IDD or autism
Joanne Lockwood: is any more effective. Maybe it's just more hype we're more hyper aware of it,
Joanne Lockwood: I guess. Correct. No. And I see it with a lot of our
Dominique Dehaene: athletes who now outperform themselves in
Dominique Dehaene: sports, but also then you hear the stories of
Dominique Dehaene: their parents who say, yeah, this would not have happened 6
Dominique Dehaene: years ago because he or she was not able to do
Dominique Dehaene: this or did not have the confidence to do it, or
Dominique Dehaene: it's the network who, you know, the people he or she knows
Dominique Dehaene: that lifted him or her up and, made
Dominique Dehaene: him do things they wouldn't have done before, be it in school,
Dominique Dehaene: be it in sports, be it in social context, whatever.
Dominique Dehaene: So we truly believe that sports is, is
Dominique Dehaene: an entry to, to, to much more fulfilling
Dominique Dehaene: life, I think, I can say. And not only for the athletes,
Dominique Dehaene: but also for the environment and also
Dominique Dehaene: for, society as a whole. And that's
Dominique Dehaene: why it's so important to organize our
Dominique Dehaene: activities. You know, we're probably the only Special
Dominique Dehaene: Olympics branch in the world who organizes our national
Dominique Dehaene: games at the level we do. We have 3,400 athletes
Dominique Dehaene: participating. You know, it's in a way it's
Dominique Dehaene: their moment to shine, but it's also
Dominique Dehaene: a moment to show the world, well specifically Belgium, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, we're capable of much more than you
Dominique Dehaene: think, so yeah, treat us as you would treat anyone,
Dominique Dehaene: anyone else. So that's why, you know, as
Dominique Dehaene: I say, sports is an entry to, to, to much more. We want our
Dominique Dehaene: athletes not only to train within their sports club, but why
Dominique Dehaene: not let them, you know, open the bar or be in the board of
Dominique Dehaene: their sports club or, you know, include them in
Dominique Dehaene: any other aspects of their club or school
Dominique Dehaene: or job they like and they are capable of. So, and that's
Dominique Dehaene: what we call championing, through sports. We all live in
Joanne Lockwood: our own heads, don't we? But so our our sense of self, our sense
Joanne Lockwood: of identity, all of our reference points are generated by
Joanne Lockwood: our own brain. Everything is relative to how we perceive.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't perceive myself as any different to anybody
Joanne Lockwood: else, really. I mean, I have things I like doing, things I don't like doing,
Joanne Lockwood: things I'm good at, things I'm not so good at. Presumably, people with
Joanne Lockwood: IDD, your son included, their reference point of
Joanne Lockwood: self has always been the same. They probably don't
Joanne Lockwood: perceive themselves as any different than anybody else just
Joanne Lockwood: with things they're good at and with things they're bad at. So they probably get
Joanne Lockwood: quite confused when people judge them or create
Joanne Lockwood: limiting situations around them because they go
Joanne Lockwood: because they don't see themselves as being any different to them. They've always been.
Dominique Dehaene: Correct. And what we what we do also is what we call play
Dominique Dehaene: unified at school, where some of our athletes, we call them our athlete
Dominique Dehaene: ambassadors, go to primary school. They talk
Dominique Dehaene: about their lives as athletes. You know,
Dominique Dehaene: they show their medals, etcetera, which always is, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, for these kids, they really look up to that. They talk
Dominique Dehaene: about their lives as a person with IDD and then what we
Dominique Dehaene: actually call play unified, they do sports together. But the
Dominique Dehaene: way these young children look at those athletes and these
Dominique Dehaene: people with IDD, they don't see the
Dominique Dehaene: difference or they, you know, it just, they're very open minded about it and
Dominique Dehaene: they say just, yeah, maybe he or she was a bit different, but I didn't
Dominique Dehaene: really notice anything. And so that's what
Dominique Dehaene: we try to do is trying to get adults
Dominique Dehaene: to look at the same way at people with IDD as these children do.
Dominique Dehaene: Like, you know, just a regular person, like anyone else with
Dominique Dehaene: a, with a, with an open view looking at them and saying, yeah, we
Dominique Dehaene: can play together with that person without remarking that the
Dominique Dehaene: difference there might be. So from
Dominique Dehaene: starting from a very young age, we try to, you know, within 20,
Dominique Dehaene: 30 years, if they can keep that mindset
Dominique Dehaene: towards people with IDD, we're one step closer
Dominique Dehaene: again to an inclusion, revolution, as
Dominique Dehaene: we call it. I often, when I'm when I'm working with
Joanne Lockwood: people, find that the one of the biggest barriers to
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion is the fear of getting it wrong. The fear of doing the wrong
Joanne Lockwood: thing, saying the wrong thing, making yourself
Joanne Lockwood: feel stupid, or whatever it may be yourself. How do we get people
Joanne Lockwood: to lose that fear of getting things wrong
Joanne Lockwood: and just having a go, with a warm
Joanne Lockwood: heart, a positive outlook?
Joanne Lockwood: Because who is the person who has the limiting
Joanne Lockwood: capability is often the person who has the
Joanne Lockwood: higher IQ that is not willing to engage. You
Dominique Dehaene: know, I I it makes me think of of, I was,
Dominique Dehaene: yeah, I made quite a career switch. I've been
Dominique Dehaene: in politics before. Just before I did this, I was
Dominique Dehaene: working at National Air Traffic Control in Belgium, not as an air traffic
Dominique Dehaene: controller, but, you know, I was in communication, etcetera. But what I
Dominique Dehaene: remember is that contrary to what you would think,
Dominique Dehaene: engineers would not always and mostly not
Dominique Dehaene: make good air traffic controllers
Dominique Dehaene: just because they think too much, you know, they overthink and, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: air traffic controls, and it might not sound very reassuring, but trust
Dominique Dehaene: me, it is, you know, they have plan
Dominique Dehaene: A for the traffic they're guiding, but they also have in
Dominique Dehaene: the back of their minds, a plan B and a plan C and it's not
Dominique Dehaene: call it gut feeling, but you know, it's intuition, it's
Dominique Dehaene: instinct, it's knowledge, it's experience, etcetera. It's a skill.
Dominique Dehaene: Whereas engineers would like, would think too much, would say, yeah,
Dominique Dehaene: if I do that, then that will happen. And you know, in the meantime,
Dominique Dehaene: this plane will be 1 kilometer further away than it was when
Dominique Dehaene: he started thinking. So basically
Dominique Dehaene: that's what you're saying. We overthink things too much thinking, yeah, what
Dominique Dehaene: will happen? Or what will people say? Or yeah, well, will I make a
Dominique Dehaene: fool out of myself? And often when you do what you are
Dominique Dehaene: afraid to do and it turns out, yeah, it wasn't bad at
Dominique Dehaene: all. On the contrary, it was a good thing and I'm glad I did this.
Dominique Dehaene: So like my son would do, he said, yeah, people
Dominique Dehaene: are eating, so I wish them a good meal and if they like it or
Dominique Dehaene: not, they cannot, you know, they cannot say I did
Dominique Dehaene: something wrong. It's just applied gesture from what I
Dominique Dehaene: said. On the other hand, I have to admit for many years, my son
Dominique Dehaene: would see eating as something very practical. So he would come
Dominique Dehaene: to the table, he would eat and he would see no interest in
Dominique Dehaene: social communication after the meal whatsoever. So when he
Dominique Dehaene: finished his meal, he would, he would leave the table right away.
Dominique Dehaene: You know, there's an upside and a downside at everything.
Dominique Dehaene: No, you're right. I think we, one of the things
Dominique Dehaene: we learn as a parent and one of the things we can learn from people
Dominique Dehaene: with IDD is being more authentic, be
Dominique Dehaene: ourselves, and just see what happens. And
Dominique Dehaene: you know, it's an illusion to think that one
Dominique Dehaene: day everyone in the world will, will, will, will love each other.
Dominique Dehaene: You know, there's personalities you like, there's personalities
Dominique Dehaene: you don't like, but just be open to one another and
Dominique Dehaene: have some empathy to think of what's going on in his or her
Dominique Dehaene: mind, what makes him think or do this or that. And that's
Dominique Dehaene: something our athletes or people with IDD, are more
Dominique Dehaene: capable of than we are as a regular person, so to
Dominique Dehaene: say. There's a military saying or a saying based
Joanne Lockwood: on the military that, no plan, no matter how good it
Joanne Lockwood: is, ever survives first contact with the enemy. You whatever's going on
Joanne Lockwood: in your head about what you're thinking, the first time you try and enact that
Joanne Lockwood: plan is the fine it's the time you realize you hadn't thought of everything. I
Joanne Lockwood: think what you're saying here, and I I talk about it as often, is you
Joanne Lockwood: need to have a plan a to zed in your back pocket. Knowing
Joanne Lockwood: full well the plan a, you're gonna get it wrong. It's gonna it's gonna
Joanne Lockwood: mess up. So in which case, where's your plan b? And it's just
Joanne Lockwood: only air traffic control. Realize the plan a is not working.
Joanne Lockwood: Swap to plan b and just keep working through your plans. And if you run
Joanne Lockwood: out of plan, finish with, I'm sorry. Please help me.
Joanne Lockwood: What could I do better next time? Learn a plan a a and
Joanne Lockwood: a plan a b and a a c. So you've got you've got the
Dominique Dehaene: intent. Yeah. And learn from it and learn from
Dominique Dehaene: it. I mean, good intent is always a good start environment. Obviously, good
Joanne Lockwood: intent doesn't get you everywhere. You have to be accountable as well. But it's important
Joanne Lockwood: not to be fearful of making a mistake Right.
Joanne Lockwood: Otherwise, you're doing it without disadvantaging the person you're
Joanne Lockwood: talking to. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And if it appears to be
Dominique Dehaene: a mistake afterwards, just learn from it. Don't make the same mistake
Dominique Dehaene: twice. That's not what I'm saying, of course, but yeah, if you don't
Dominique Dehaene: try, you'll never know. So that's, I would say the philosophy I
Dominique Dehaene: have for my private life, but also for, for Special
Dominique Dehaene: Olympics, just, you know, look up the limits
Dominique Dehaene: and if you find them, then you know, okay, I've gotten this far and
Dominique Dehaene: this is where it stops for now. Maybe later you'll
Dominique Dehaene: pass another limit and learn
Dominique Dehaene: something new. You will never know if you don't try.
Dominique Dehaene: And as you say, ask help, because one very important aspect, and
Dominique Dehaene: we have to talk about this as well, is of course environment.
Dominique Dehaene: You know, life is, well, not, let's not be too pessimistic, but life
Dominique Dehaene: is always, is struggle, you know? For some people it is because they
Dominique Dehaene: don't get the help that they could use. And this is of course,
Dominique Dehaene: even more the case for people with IDD. They need more
Dominique Dehaene: help than others. And if there's no help they can rely
Dominique Dehaene: on, it makes it even more difficult. It's good to
Dominique Dehaene: point these things out because as a parent or
Dominique Dehaene: as supervisor or an acquaintance or a
Dominique Dehaene: friend or whatever from people with IDD, there are
Dominique Dehaene: challenges that are greater than in normal life. You know, like for
Dominique Dehaene: example, we have 2 other children, a lot of
Dominique Dehaene: people, parents of people with IDD have
Dominique Dehaene: children, you know, in normal life, they grew up and they
Dominique Dehaene: marry or they get, they leave the house
Dominique Dehaene: and start living their own lives. For people with IDD that's not always
Dominique Dehaene: possible. They, so you, that's something,
Dominique Dehaene: and this is for me very personal at this time. At a
Dominique Dehaene: certain time you have to start thinking, yeah, what will happen if
Dominique Dehaene: life takes its normal course and we
Dominique Dehaene: live this life earlier than our son, who will take care of him
Dominique Dehaene: then? Can he take care of himself? Does he have someone, and
Dominique Dehaene: you can't put this on his brother or sister. You know, they have
Dominique Dehaene: their own lives. You can't impose them to
Dominique Dehaene: take care of him when you're not around anymore. So that's
Dominique Dehaene: something that many, many, I think all parents of people
Dominique Dehaene: with, you know, as long as you have them close to
Dominique Dehaene: you, you take care of them as you do for your other children
Dominique Dehaene: with, as I say, with the extra challenges, there comes a time
Dominique Dehaene: when you have to let them go as well, or you have to prepare
Dominique Dehaene: to let them go, which is practically more challenging
Dominique Dehaene: and emotionally even more challenging because, yeah,
Dominique Dehaene: you don't know what's going to happen with, you know, that's with, of
Dominique Dehaene: course with other children, it's the same, but they
Dominique Dehaene: can rely on themselves whilst these people cannot
Dominique Dehaene: always fully rely on themselves. So I
Dominique Dehaene: would not say this is contrary to inclusion, but
Dominique Dehaene: the inclusion then would be, yeah, how can we,
Dominique Dehaene: make them, live, an
Dominique Dehaene: independent, as much as independent life as possible? So these
Dominique Dehaene: are things that I would say the environment of people
Dominique Dehaene: with IDD comes across, and,
Dominique Dehaene: for during the lifetime as well, the network is
Dominique Dehaene: crucial. You know, you, because for
Dominique Dehaene: some, the care you have to take can be very
Dominique Dehaene: intense, and then it's good to
Dominique Dehaene: have for the grandparents or family or anyone else you
Dominique Dehaene: can rely on to say, okay, let's begin. It's a
Dominique Dehaene: bit much for the moment. Can you help us out for an afternoon? Something like
Dominique Dehaene: that. So, yeah, environment is very important
Dominique Dehaene: and not all people with IDD or their parents have
Dominique Dehaene: a network they can rely on. I remember something in the the
Joanne Lockwood: UK probably a couple of years ago now is they changed the law
Joanne Lockwood: because I never realized this, but it transpires that
Joanne Lockwood: social care support for people with downs stopped, I think,
Joanne Lockwood: at the age of 50 or something. There was no no provision.
Joanne Lockwood: And it was based on the fact that people with Down's or
Joanne Lockwood: IDD had a lower life expectancy,
Joanne Lockwood: and, generally, they didn't survive their parents or
Joanne Lockwood: outlive their parents. So there was a belief that parents would
Joanne Lockwood: be always there for them. But I guess what you're saying is
Joanne Lockwood: because of the quality of life being provided,
Joanne Lockwood: the environments, the health, the sport, the diet, the
Joanne Lockwood: living standards for people with IDD or downs has improved.
Joanne Lockwood: Life expectancy is now improving across the board there. So
Joanne Lockwood: people are living longer, and it's no longer a prognosis of a of
Joanne Lockwood: a life where you don't get out of your thirties. You know, you should live
Joanne Lockwood: into your fifties, sixties, seventies, and why not? We have one. We have,
Dominique Dehaene: I just met them this morning. We have, an athlete with Downs who is,
Dominique Dehaene: 52, I think he is. He, likely his, his mom is still
Dominique Dehaene: alive. She's 78. She's still very vital, I would say. So this
Dominique Dehaene: works, but indeed that's, I would not say the disadvantage
Dominique Dehaene: of, of science, but indeed people in
Dominique Dehaene: general live longer and people with down syndrome, for example, live
Dominique Dehaene: longer. So this poses new, what
Dominique Dehaene: else call it, luxury problems, you know, as
Dominique Dehaene: is healthcare in general, because people live longer, they,
Dominique Dehaene: but they have more illnesses and diseases, etcetera. So
Dominique Dehaene: it becomes more challenging for people in general. And so also for
Dominique Dehaene: people with, with IDD and indeed
Dominique Dehaene: life expectation for people with Down syndrome, some 20, 30 years
Dominique Dehaene: ago, when it was lower, which also brings me to the topic of
Dominique Dehaene: health in general. For, for people with IDD, they
Dominique Dehaene: have certain, not only
Dominique Dehaene: diseases, I don't know what the exact word is, but you know, they're
Dominique Dehaene: diabetes, obese, they're more obese, like people
Dominique Dehaene: down More susceptible with certain other conditions. Yeah. More susceptible, correct. Thank you. Thank you.
Dominique Dehaene: Yeah. That's, that's the word. So they're more susceptible to certain, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, they have, people with downs have
Dominique Dehaene: lesser depth vision. So these kind of things we
Dominique Dehaene: have to take into consideration. So what we do, we have
Dominique Dehaene: during our national games, we have a healthy athletes program
Dominique Dehaene: where all the athletes participating in our games
Dominique Dehaene: can go for screenings in 8 different health disciplines, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, vision, heat, mouth, hygiene, feet, etcetera.
Dominique Dehaene: And we, we treat them, we'll say, yeah, more specifically
Dominique Dehaene: to their needs, because you can ask an athlete, yeah, do you like
Dominique Dehaene: vegetables? Do you eat vegetables? I don't know. Vegetables. I don't like vegetables.
Dominique Dehaene: And then we open a book full of pictures and they start,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, pointing out the vegetables they eat and, yeah, you eat a lot of
Dominique Dehaene: vegetables, but they just don't always know it's vegetables.
Dominique Dehaene: Now that's a positive example, but there's also
Dominique Dehaene: 4 out of 10 athletes that participate in our national games
Dominique Dehaene: are wearing the wrong shoe size. Some of them are wearing
Dominique Dehaene: 2 sizes too small, so it has to hurt. You know, they don't
Dominique Dehaene: indicate that it's hurting. We had someone during our last
Dominique Dehaene: games who, you know, was minus 6
Dominique Dehaene: in vision, didn't even wear glasses. So that proves
Dominique Dehaene: 2 things. You need doctors and nurses, etcetera,
Dominique Dehaene: who can approach people with IDD differently because, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, you cannot just ask, you know, are you hurting somewhere? Maybe you
Dominique Dehaene: are not, you know, that's not going to help. And secondly,
Dominique Dehaene: it shows that what I call social context,
Dominique Dehaene: not all parents of people with IDD, for
Dominique Dehaene: example, have the means to buy glasses, to buy new
Dominique Dehaene: shoes every month or every 6 months or so.
Dominique Dehaene: So there's a lot of things going on around sports and health and
Dominique Dehaene: inclusion, etcetera. It's always, there might be more going on
Dominique Dehaene: than just the eye meets. So that's very important aspect is also
Dominique Dehaene: health. And we work together with what the Belgian NHS, it
Dominique Dehaene: is, so to say, so we deliver anonymously of
Dominique Dehaene: course the data from our athlete screenings, so
Dominique Dehaene: they know, okay, this is becoming a real problem
Dominique Dehaene: in this population and we can,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, set out a policy to prevent this or
Dominique Dehaene: work on this. We work together with universities and high
Dominique Dehaene: schools where in education, we ask them to
Dominique Dehaene: foresee one aspect of the training program for people with IDD,
Dominique Dehaene: how to treat them, how to approach them, etcetera, not only
Dominique Dehaene: in healthcare, but also,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, in sports or events and other things, so we
Dominique Dehaene: go way beyond sports and to get to an
Dominique Dehaene: inclusive society, learning from
Dominique Dehaene: our experiences with our athletes and learning from the
Dominique Dehaene: experiences parents have with their children or
Dominique Dehaene: supervisors have within the institutions they work at,
Dominique Dehaene: etcetera. So, it's much broader than than
Dominique Dehaene: sports film, but the entry will always be sports. As you're
Joanne Lockwood: talking now, I was thinking about when our son was younger, He was
Joanne Lockwood: about 9 or 10 years old, and he was struggling at school,
Joanne Lockwood: struggling with reading, struggling with a number of things. And we,
Joanne Lockwood: I guess, like many parents, assumed maybe he needed glasses or
Joanne Lockwood: vision tested, so he took an eye test. And he was diagnosed
Joanne Lockwood: being extremely long sighted. And so he got me these
Joanne Lockwood: glasses, and he was wearing these glasses. It didn't improve things. And what we found
Joanne Lockwood: was that he was very reluctant to wear these glasses and would always take them
Joanne Lockwood: off. And we we we got to the conclusion that these weren't helping him, and
Joanne Lockwood: then what we did was we realized that he wasn't had a problem with his
Joanne Lockwood: eyes. He was, dyslexic. So when they were
Joanne Lockwood: asking to read out the letters and things, he didn't get the letters right. He
Joanne Lockwood: couldn't read the letters because he didn't know what the letters were. So he was
Joanne Lockwood: misdiagnosed for the sight problem, and it was down to bit. It's,
Joanne Lockwood: even now we laugh about it. He said, well, I just in the end, I
Joanne Lockwood: got tired of of of disagreeing. I just did those that's
Joanne Lockwood: better. Right. And it's a very
Dominique Dehaene: cynical thing to say. But some people with
Dominique Dehaene: ID, it doesn't show, you know, they look just like
Dominique Dehaene: you and me, so to say, like people with nouns, you know, they have
Dominique Dehaene: the characteristics of people. So you see it
Dominique Dehaene: or some athletes you hear it because they talk differently
Dominique Dehaene: or, you know, they have different eyes or
Dominique Dehaene: whatever. But some people with IDD, you
Dominique Dehaene: will not notice in their appearance. That makes it sometimes
Dominique Dehaene: even more difficult for them because,
Dominique Dehaene: yeah, then people sometimes don't even believe they have
Dominique Dehaene: IDD. Also, if they're
Joanne Lockwood: existing with their own frame of reference, they probably don't see themselves
Joanne Lockwood: as having a disability either, do they? They're just them. Yeah.
Dominique Dehaene: Correct. My son sorry to come back to him
Dominique Dehaene: all the time, but my son was interviewed at I think the age of
Dominique Dehaene: 10 or 12, something like that, because we were always open to
Dominique Dehaene: him as well, towards him as well about his disability, so we
Dominique Dehaene: told him as soon as he was conscious about it, we told him he
Dominique Dehaene: had autism, and so at the age of 10, 12 years old, he said,
Dominique Dehaene: yeah, without my autism, I would not be myself. This is a part of me.
Dominique Dehaene: This is who I am. So if he was asked the question,
Dominique Dehaene: if tomorrow your autism could disappear, would you have it
Dominique Dehaene: disappear? So he said, no, this is part of me. This is
Dominique Dehaene: who I am. And maybe he would be afraid of, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: if you and I woke up tomorrow and we had a
Dominique Dehaene: totally different personality, it would scare us as well.
Dominique Dehaene: So, so yeah, but on the other hand, it
Dominique Dehaene: is sometimes difficult. You know, these people at a certain time
Dominique Dehaene: of their life, they must, for example, admit, okay, I will
Dominique Dehaene: never have children like anyone else that would not be,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, a responsible thing to do. I will not be
Dominique Dehaene: able to do some things people without
Dominique Dehaene: IDD would be able to do. And and, you know, they that's a fact
Dominique Dehaene: that is at a certain time, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: blows you in the face and and and you have to you have to deal
Dominique Dehaene: with it. So I'll never be clever enough to
Joanne Lockwood: be a nuclear physicist, or go to the moon, or but I can live with
Joanne Lockwood: that. And I guess your son or other people, they're
Joanne Lockwood: achieving what they can achieve, and when they wanna achieve it. I think we
Joanne Lockwood: create these social constructs of normality of what people expected to
Joanne Lockwood: behave and achieve. Whereas if we reframed it around
Joanne Lockwood: their expectation of self, of what they want to achieve,
Dominique Dehaene: Correct. They need to be happy. And be happy with what they achieve. And, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, we always, well, mostly we impose more and more, so we achieve
Dominique Dehaene: something and then we set the next goal and the next, next, and the next
Dominique Dehaene: without just being happy with what we've achieved, feeling for
Dominique Dehaene: ourselves, okay, this is my limit. As you say, me neither, I will
Dominique Dehaene: never be a nuclear physicist or an astronaut or whatever. So
Dominique Dehaene: we're happy with that. But in the meantime, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: just the one step above what we are doing now, we
Dominique Dehaene: always strive for that without saying at a certain time, it's
Dominique Dehaene: okay. This is where I'm happy and I don't need anything else or
Dominique Dehaene: anything more. So indeed, yeah. And I'm no better
Dominique Dehaene: than anyone else at that. I say for my son, okay, he
Dominique Dehaene: reaches his limits or he goes further than his limits and it's great,
Dominique Dehaene: but for ourselves, we're
Dominique Dehaene: never satisfied with what we do. We always want more. And
Joanne Lockwood: that doesn't breed happiness sometimes, does it? We're always wanting the
Joanne Lockwood: next thing. So sometimes it'd be really lovely to just be satisfied
Joanne Lockwood: with what we have, sufficiency rather than capitalism
Joanne Lockwood: going out of control. Just being happy for someone else, you
Dominique Dehaene: know, exchanging medals, I would say. You know, I'm glad you won that
Dominique Dehaene: medal. I didn't, but glad for you. So you you won it and
Dominique Dehaene: and maybe exchange medals. You want mine? I'll give you yours. You give me yours,
Dominique Dehaene: and, yeah, that's a valuable lesson to learn
Dominique Dehaene: from our athletes, but that doesn't mean we keep striving to include
Dominique Dehaene: them in more than we think they are
Dominique Dehaene: capable of because, you know, they have a right to a fulfilling life as
Dominique Dehaene: much as anyone else. And as I say, we try to encourage people to
Dominique Dehaene: look beyond their disabilities and
Dominique Dehaene: keep looking at their talents, be it in sports or anything
Dominique Dehaene: else. That's that's what we believe in, and that's really what we strive for, every
Dominique Dehaene: day. A lot lot of the challenge, you know, we talk about here is this
Joanne Lockwood: the social construct of what we've decided is
Joanne Lockwood: every day is normal. And you alluded to earlier around
Joanne Lockwood: safety, security, because we set up the
Joanne Lockwood: system in a certain way for people who don't have
Joanne Lockwood: IDD or doubts. Therefore, they don't necessarily have
Joanne Lockwood: the comprehension of expectation or normality, whatever
Joanne Lockwood: that may mean, or the rules of engagement. So it's you know, we
Joanne Lockwood: talk about the social model of disability versus the medical model. So it's
Joanne Lockwood: society has created a model that makes it challenging for
Joanne Lockwood: them because it's not based for them. Correct. And that's what we we try
Dominique Dehaene: to, you know, teach them as well as through
Dominique Dehaene: sport is saying, it's okay to to to strive for
Dominique Dehaene: more. You have to train if you want to win.
Dominique Dehaene: And the goal should be to win. Otherwise you're,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, there's no reason to compete. The reason to compete is to
Dominique Dehaene: win and that's okay. And you can be excited when you win. You
Dominique Dehaene: have to be disappointed when you lose, but in the
Dominique Dehaene: end you have to think, okay, I tried, at least I
Dominique Dehaene: tried, and if I can do this, I can do other things in
Dominique Dehaene: my life as well. If I just try and then I'll see
Dominique Dehaene: how far it gets me, and maybe I will not win, but
Dominique Dehaene: I might end up with silver or bronze, which is fine as
Dominique Dehaene: well. So, strive to be the best person you can
Dominique Dehaene: be and be happy about it when you reach that goal.
Dominique Dehaene: And to society we're saying, you know, they're trying
Dominique Dehaene: just as hard as anyone else and, you know, give them the opportunity
Dominique Dehaene: to be themselves, to achieve the best version of themselves like
Dominique Dehaene: you are trying to do, But on the other hand, learn from
Dominique Dehaene: them that it's okay to
Dominique Dehaene: not always reach your goal or if you just
Dominique Dehaene: try. So, that for me is inclusion, accepting
Dominique Dehaene: the strengths and the, you know, weaknesses of disabilities
Dominique Dehaene: even from other people and accepting
Dominique Dehaene: everyone for who they are and giving them the chances like
Dominique Dehaene: anyone else would get or
Dominique Dehaene: deserve or grasp the opportunities
Dominique Dehaene: that pass along. We do this in every day anyway. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm just thinking about golf. Golf is a sport. You have
Joanne Lockwood: handicaps. So the people who are beginners,
Joanne Lockwood: have less capability, are not playing
Joanne Lockwood: way, way behind. They feel that they can compete against people who are better.
Joanne Lockwood: And you have the the men's tee and the female
Joanne Lockwood: tee, so recognizing that some people have different strengths in in in
Joanne Lockwood: their driving range. So we're making reasonable adjustments to
Joanne Lockwood: allow people to compete in sport and level the playing
Joanne Lockwood: field as much as we do anyway. So all we're doing here is recalibrating
Joanne Lockwood: success. And which which which is actually one of the
Dominique Dehaene: an important part of sports within Special Olympics is
Dominique Dehaene: divisioning, where we put the let's use
Dominique Dehaene: a very bad words, the weaker athletes compete
Dominique Dehaene: against each other and the stronger athletes compete against each other. So there's
Dominique Dehaene: a fair level playing field and there's nothing wrong with that because,
Dominique Dehaene: you know, if you have to compete to athletes who are not as
Dominique Dehaene: good as you, it's no fun for anyone.
Dominique Dehaene: So we divide the athletes, I would say, in, into
Dominique Dehaene: categories, so everyone would have a chance to
Dominique Dehaene: reach for the best, But then within the category, they can still compete
Dominique Dehaene: with someone who's better or or or just not better than than
Dominique Dehaene: them. So it makes the competition more tight, which
Dominique Dehaene: which is good for everyone. In my in my young adulthood, in my
Joanne Lockwood: twenties, I used to play a lot of squash. One of the people in the
Joanne Lockwood: company I was working for was ranked 100 in the
Joanne Lockwood: country, and there was also somebody in a different department who was ranked
Joanne Lockwood: 20 in the country. And I never played
Joanne Lockwood: the person who's ranked a 100, but I did ask them one day. I said,
Joanne Lockwood: do you ever play this other person in the rank 20? I said, but there's
Joanne Lockwood: no point. Between a 120, there's so much difference. It would be
Joanne Lockwood: no fun for either of us. In the same way, there was no point in
Joanne Lockwood: me playing the person who was ranked a 100, because it just I'd just
Joanne Lockwood: be you need to play someone who's very closely aligned to your
Joanne Lockwood: capability to make it fun for both. Yeah. If you if you
Dominique Dehaene: always win, it's not fun in the end anymore because there's no competition.
Dominique Dehaene: If you always lose, it's not fun anymore because you don't get any better,
Dominique Dehaene: but if you're good and then all of a sudden
Dominique Dehaene: you meet the person or the team that is better than you,
Dominique Dehaene: that's when you learn and you make progress. And
Dominique Dehaene: maybe if the person who was ranked 100 would play the person
Dominique Dehaene: who was ranked 90 and then 80 and then 70, maybe
Dominique Dehaene: someday he will reach the person ranked 20th
Dominique Dehaene: position, and if he doesn't, at least he will have tried, so there's
Dominique Dehaene: nothing wrong with trying. No. So do you have a sport?
Joanne Lockwood: What do you play in? I'm a runner, but I always
Dominique Dehaene: say I have more, you know, perseverance than
Dominique Dehaene: talent. So, I run a lot. I like running, but I, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: I'm I'm not a winner. I'm just having fun running. And,
Dominique Dehaene: yeah, I do. You do it for the adrenaline, the buzz, the the brain
Joanne Lockwood: chemicals, and the and the feeling of Exactly. Clearing your
Joanne Lockwood: head and having a Yeah. Good workout. And having some new
Dominique Dehaene: thoughts as well when when you are running long enough. It's, Yeah,
Dominique Dehaene: exactly. I enjoyed that. I've had my difficulties myself in
Dominique Dehaene: sports life. I was too fanatic at a certain time, so I
Dominique Dehaene: got anorexic as well and, you know,
Dominique Dehaene: that's another one of my struggles, but I'm good now, you know, I will always
Dominique Dehaene: be anorexic, but it's, let's say under control and I
Dominique Dehaene: enjoy running it, just enjoy running and, you know, you have good
Dominique Dehaene: days, you have bad days, but whereas before the bad days would
Dominique Dehaene: freak me out, but just, yeah, it's okay. Next time will be
Dominique Dehaene: better again. So, just enjoying. And I think
Dominique Dehaene: that's something, not only in running, we have to try in everyday life as well.
Dominique Dehaene: Just enjoying, making the best out of it, because we're only here at the best
Dominique Dehaene: some 80, 90 years. So let's make the best of of these years and
Dominique Dehaene: enjoy those days with with the people who are closest to us.
Joanne Lockwood: You you dropped in the conversation there about
Joanne Lockwood: your anorexia. We just got to the end of this podcast,
Joanne Lockwood: really, and I'm I'm now thinking I wish we dived into that a bit more.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe maybe you'll come back one day, and we can talk about your
Joanne Lockwood: anorexia because it's something I've never I've never really spoken to somebody about. I
Joanne Lockwood: have the opposite problem. I find it very difficult to stop eating.
Joanne Lockwood: I yo yoed my weight up and down
Joanne Lockwood: by 100 of kilos, plus and minus, over my life.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, if you were willing to come back one day, we can if you
Joanne Lockwood: want to talk about that. One of the things of being open
Dominique Dehaene: about our son, but also about this aspect of my life is
Dominique Dehaene: we just think if it can help anyone,
Dominique Dehaene: yeah, that's a good thing. It's nothing to be ashamed of.
Dominique Dehaene: If other people recognize themselves in some things
Dominique Dehaene: and they say, oh, you, you know, you handle it with this in that
Dominique Dehaene: particular way and maybe we should try the same or,
Dominique Dehaene: just knowing we're not alone with this challenge, whatever it
Dominique Dehaene: may be. Just talking about it and be open about it. If it can help
Dominique Dehaene: anyone, gladly, yes. Let's make an appointment for her next time.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. I mean, you've been and I hate the word
Joanne Lockwood: brave is overused. Yeah. But you've shared the story of your son
Joanne Lockwood: and your passion and how he has inspired you, I guess, in your
Joanne Lockwood: current role with the Olympics, Special Olympics. I I've taken so much away today. It's
Joanne Lockwood: been really, really powerful, and I just wanna thank you for being open and
Joanne Lockwood: and and sharing. It's been really, really, really powerful, as I said. No. Thank you.
Dominique Dehaene: Thank you so much. No. Thank you. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for
Joanne Lockwood: lending your ear and heart to the cause of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord.
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Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
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Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.