WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:18.705 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.705 --> 00:00:22.405 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.105 --> 00:00:26.625 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where 6 00:00:26.625 --> 00:00:30.050 everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're 7 00:00:30.050 --> 00:00:33.649 not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.649 --> 00:00:37.250 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.250 --> 00:00:41.090 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:44.905 in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:44.905 --> 00:00:48.665 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.665 --> 00:00:52.425 inspire action together. Don't forget, you 13 00:00:52.425 --> 00:00:55.385 can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.385 --> 00:00:57.140 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.739 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.200 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.115 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 18 00:01:13.375 --> 00:01:16.595 Bites. Today 19 00:01:17.055 --> 00:01:20.655 is episode 147 with the 20 00:01:20.655 --> 00:01:24.190 title, breaking bias. And I 21 00:01:24.190 --> 00:01:27.729 have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Lorne Epstein. 22 00:01:28.670 --> 00:01:31.890 Lorne is a social scientist, keynote speaker, 23 00:01:32.670 --> 00:01:36.270 facilitator, and has been transforming workplaces for over 24 00:01:36.270 --> 00:01:39.704 2 decades by teaching people how to recognize 25 00:01:40.244 --> 00:01:43.845 and reduce unconscious bias. When I asked 26 00:01:43.845 --> 00:01:46.905 Lorne to describe his superpower, he said, helping professionals 27 00:01:47.205 --> 00:01:50.424 uncover and mitigate their biases. 28 00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:55.080 Hello, Lorne. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thank you so 29 00:01:55.080 --> 00:01:57.980 much for having me. I'm on 147. 30 00:01:59.320 --> 00:02:03.160 Yeah. I'm so 147. Where's that time gone? We met. When 31 00:02:03.160 --> 00:02:06.915 did we meet? It was 2019 on Amsterdam, was it? Yes. It 32 00:02:06.915 --> 00:02:10.294 was 2019 in Amsterdam, so that's 5 years ago. 33 00:02:11.315 --> 00:02:14.755 Yeah. Long time. Wow. It was unleashed, if I remember rightly, the HR 34 00:02:14.755 --> 00:02:18.275 conference. Yeah. Yeah. That was great. That was great. That was a lot of fun. 35 00:02:18.275 --> 00:02:21.799 I really enjoyed kind of seeing the the European 36 00:02:22.099 --> 00:02:25.780 HR market, and it was it blew me away. I mean, people were 37 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:29.459 just so great, very friendly. You know, still 38 00:02:29.459 --> 00:02:32.680 crazy like the HR people here, but it was it was nice. 39 00:02:33.974 --> 00:02:36.855 At that conference, you were you were doing live interviews, and I was a guest 40 00:02:36.855 --> 00:02:40.614 on your show, if I remember correctly. Yes. Yes. So, like, 41 00:02:40.614 --> 00:02:44.454 in 2015, where I live, they opened up a public radio station, 42 00:02:44.454 --> 00:02:47.680 and I got a radio show, and I made it all about jobs. And I 43 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:50.480 was just doing it as a side thing. It was just for fun. There was 44 00:02:50.480 --> 00:02:54.080 no money because it was a public station. And and 45 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:57.680 then, like, the last year or so, I started figuring out ways to make money, 46 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:01.200 and one was to get sponsorships and go to shows like 47 00:03:01.200 --> 00:03:04.985 Unleash and interview folks. So I did that for about a 48 00:03:04.985 --> 00:03:08.825 year or so, and then everything kinda went to to shit because of COVID 49 00:03:08.825 --> 00:03:12.185 and, you know, the whole anyway. So, yeah, that's how we 50 00:03:12.185 --> 00:03:15.864 met. Yeah. We did. We touched base, if that's not too 51 00:03:15.864 --> 00:03:19.600 cliched as an expression, a few times early in COVID. You 52 00:03:19.600 --> 00:03:23.360 really got into the unconscious bias and you were yeah. Your business took 53 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:26.960 off in that way, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It was kinda wild. I had 54 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.640 built I had, a federal client. A federal government 55 00:03:30.640 --> 00:03:34.254 agency was a client of mine. I was developing their their national 56 00:03:34.254 --> 00:03:38.015 hiring strategy, their diversity hiring strategy. And while I was doing it, 57 00:03:38.015 --> 00:03:41.855 their head of HR asked me to build them an unconscious bias workshop. And 58 00:03:41.855 --> 00:03:45.614 I've been doing experiential training for decades, so I did. I did it 59 00:03:45.614 --> 00:03:49.190 for them. They loved it. And since then, I probably did it, like, 60 00:03:49.190 --> 00:03:52.950 30 or 40 times. Just as 2020 started 61 00:03:52.950 --> 00:03:56.410 in January, an old college professor of mine suggested, 62 00:03:56.790 --> 00:04:00.489 why don't you submit it to this experiential learning conference in Philadelphia 63 00:04:01.075 --> 00:04:04.834 and get some feedback? And I'm like, that sounds great. So I applied and it 64 00:04:04.834 --> 00:04:08.594 got accepted, but I also applied to graduate school. I was going to 65 00:04:08.594 --> 00:04:12.435 get a master's degree in organizational development, and I got accepted. But 66 00:04:12.435 --> 00:04:15.560 there was a conflict on that date. My teacher said, well, you can't you can't 67 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.839 go to the conference. You have to come to class. Why don't you just do 68 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.520 the workshop for the students and get feedback? I said, that sounds 69 00:04:22.520 --> 00:04:25.800 great. So we set it up, and the school had advertised it. It was gonna 70 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:29.395 be on campus. And next thing you know, we have COVID. And in 71 00:04:29.395 --> 00:04:32.755 April of 2020, instead of doing it in person, we did it on Zoom. I 72 00:04:32.755 --> 00:04:36.595 had a 140 people from around the world in this workshop, and 73 00:04:36.595 --> 00:04:39.955 it just took off. People wanted more. So the next month, we had a 100 74 00:04:39.955 --> 00:04:43.255 and since then, over 50,000 people have done these trainings. 75 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:48.520 Oh, I think I actually crashed into one of your workshops in 76 00:04:48.520 --> 00:04:51.320 the in the early ones. It was the first or the second. I I sat 77 00:04:51.320 --> 00:04:55.000 in on one of them, the early ones, I think. Was it fun? It 78 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:58.665 was great. I thought it was great. I mean, we I mean, the experiential 79 00:04:58.725 --> 00:05:02.105 side, we're in breakout rooms. I met some people, have great conversations. 80 00:05:02.325 --> 00:05:05.925 And, yeah, it was a it was my first probably my first experience of 81 00:05:05.925 --> 00:05:09.765 doing that online experiential type training where you're just going into breakout rooms. 82 00:05:09.765 --> 00:05:13.420 I think it probably helped me get confidence in doing some of my own workshops 83 00:05:13.420 --> 00:05:17.040 online as well. So that's yeah. Cool. Awesome. That's great. I love that. 84 00:05:17.260 --> 00:05:20.940 I love hearing how the work that we do makes a 85 00:05:20.940 --> 00:05:24.540 difference for people. It's not something that, like, naturally happens. And it's 86 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:27.785 funny you should say that because I I know that I make a difference to 87 00:05:27.785 --> 00:05:31.324 people. It's like I love people and I want to just support them in 88 00:05:31.544 --> 00:05:35.384 in having better lives. About 4 weeks ago, I was 89 00:05:35.384 --> 00:05:38.685 training almost a 1000 people at a hospital in Ohio. 90 00:05:38.745 --> 00:05:42.510 And midway through my sponsor, 91 00:05:42.510 --> 00:05:46.350 who is the CHRO, we were walking across campus and she said, 92 00:05:46.350 --> 00:05:50.190 oh, you remember this woman where we had a little bit of, 93 00:05:50.190 --> 00:05:53.854 you know, we had some challenges with and she came to my office 94 00:05:53.854 --> 00:05:57.395 after the workshop, and she gave me a thumbs up. And she said, 95 00:05:57.694 --> 00:06:01.535 that's the kind of training that we need. And I just my heart just 96 00:06:01.535 --> 00:06:05.375 melted. I just stopped. And I'm like, I got all warm and 97 00:06:05.375 --> 00:06:09.000 fuzzy, and I'm like, oh my god. This is great. This is like, 98 00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:12.680 you know, my my, wonderful life moment of 99 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:16.520 it actually something is actually happening. But, you know, like, 100 00:06:16.660 --> 00:06:19.780 you know and I was telling you this story earlier. There's, like, all this other 101 00:06:19.780 --> 00:06:23.380 stuff that has to occur for that one little moment. Like, 102 00:06:24.275 --> 00:06:27.794 3 weeks ago, I was speaking at the HR HR Visions in 103 00:06:27.794 --> 00:06:31.635 London, and I gotten there on a Monday. I got 104 00:06:31.635 --> 00:06:34.935 4 hours of sleep because the time changed to the workshop on Tuesday, 105 00:06:35.555 --> 00:06:39.095 got 4 hours of sleep to do the workshop on Wednesday, came home 106 00:06:39.620 --> 00:06:43.139 By the end of towards the end of the flight, the plane got just crazy 107 00:06:43.139 --> 00:06:46.659 turbulent. I got so sick that they took me off by 108 00:06:46.659 --> 00:06:50.120 ambulance, went to the hospital for about 3 or 4 hours, 109 00:06:50.419 --> 00:06:54.195 got fixed up. Next morning, I get up. I do another workshop 110 00:06:54.255 --> 00:06:57.695 for a client on Zoom, go to class, pick up my 111 00:06:57.695 --> 00:07:01.535 assignment, go to the airport, fly to Michigan because the next day, I'm training 112 00:07:01.535 --> 00:07:04.920 a 100 doctors. And, like, all that was 113 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:08.600 great because of that fun little, like, I know somewhere someone's gonna go 114 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.240 like, oh, that was that was really good. That made a difference in my life. 115 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:15.080 Have you had that experience? Yeah. I I've had an in 116 00:07:15.080 --> 00:07:18.120 flight issue, and I'll tell you about that. When I find my in personal or 117 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.294 even my online workshops, are you doing your discovery call with the client, or you're 118 00:07:21.294 --> 00:07:23.855 just about to go into the room and do the training? Quite often, they they 119 00:07:23.855 --> 00:07:26.735 take me to one side and go, Jo, just just so you know, there's a 120 00:07:26.735 --> 00:07:30.175 couple of people who are really anti. They're kind of really negative. They're they're real 121 00:07:30.175 --> 00:07:33.760 troublemakers. They they don't wanna get involved with this inclusivity's 122 00:07:34.140 --> 00:07:37.520 rubbish or mumbo jumbo that's on it. I said, that's brilliant. 123 00:07:37.980 --> 00:07:40.300 That's what I want. I don't want everyone to go in there and agree with 124 00:07:40.300 --> 00:07:44.140 me. I want people in there who are gonna be feisty and testy because 125 00:07:44.140 --> 00:07:47.955 it has two purposes. 1, is it gives an example of the problem 126 00:07:47.955 --> 00:07:51.575 we have to the people who are who are positive so they actually hear this. 127 00:07:51.715 --> 00:07:55.415 But, also, the I found the people who go with those really 128 00:07:55.635 --> 00:07:59.475 deep struggling ideas, they come out with the most change. Often, they 129 00:07:59.475 --> 00:08:01.315 come up to me after I shake my hand or give me a hug or 130 00:08:01.315 --> 00:08:04.410 something and say, say, that was so powerful. Wow. You've really opened my eyes to 131 00:08:04.410 --> 00:08:08.090 this. So that's where you really find you've made the difference. But nudging people who 132 00:08:08.090 --> 00:08:11.930 are already there is the echo chamber. It's it's not with the satisfaction. It's 133 00:08:11.930 --> 00:08:15.770 the moving people from a to b where you can clearly see change has 134 00:08:15.770 --> 00:08:19.585 occurred. That's where the empowerment comes in. Yeah. I love that. Like, there's 135 00:08:19.585 --> 00:08:22.705 a a lot more people like, I love people. I just met I met a 136 00:08:22.705 --> 00:08:26.385 bunch of coaches. So I did a training from a company called Lifespring 137 00:08:26.385 --> 00:08:30.225 back at 92, which was my big kind of transformational moment of 138 00:08:30.225 --> 00:08:33.980 seeing my own power and letting go of the wounds. And 139 00:08:33.980 --> 00:08:37.740 coaching wasn't a thing then. And now so many people do that. And I 140 00:08:37.740 --> 00:08:41.500 know that it's, like, the benefit they get. The why is they just 141 00:08:41.500 --> 00:08:45.020 wanna connect and help people. I think a lot of people listening to the show 142 00:08:45.020 --> 00:08:48.435 are like, you know, like like, that's what they wanna do. They just want to 143 00:08:48.435 --> 00:08:52.195 make a difference. Yeah. They do. I mean, I've gotta 144 00:08:52.195 --> 00:08:54.995 give you my wellness story now on on a plane. So I was I used 145 00:08:54.995 --> 00:08:58.675 to work for a bank in the UK, and this bank was a private bank. 146 00:08:58.675 --> 00:09:02.460 They had branch offices all over the world in very nice 147 00:09:02.460 --> 00:09:06.300 places, Beverly Hills, San Diego. And this particular occasion, I 148 00:09:06.300 --> 00:09:10.060 was I was doing IT. So I was an IT tech, effectively, rolling out 149 00:09:10.060 --> 00:09:13.760 systems. And this this particular gig was, NASA, Bahamas. 150 00:09:14.535 --> 00:09:17.495 So I flew from London, and in those days, be it pretty sure I was 151 00:09:17.495 --> 00:09:21.255 used to fly via Miami, and then you change it Miami, and then you go 152 00:09:21.255 --> 00:09:25.095 Miami, NASA. The mid flight, the plane had 153 00:09:25.095 --> 00:09:28.940 an emergency landing. I think it was someone had a heart attack. So we 154 00:09:28.940 --> 00:09:32.700 we had to land in Gander, in Newfoundland. We I don't know if you've ever 155 00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:36.540 if you've had an emergency stopover in Newfoundland, but basically, the 156 00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:40.300 plane does a really rapid descent and suddenly you're it land 157 00:09:40.300 --> 00:09:43.985 on this airfield in the middle of Newfoundland, middle of nowhere. You look out the 158 00:09:43.985 --> 00:09:46.165 window. You can't see anything. It could be absolutely 159 00:09:47.665 --> 00:09:50.944 wild landscape, and they they get the person off. And, of course, when they're on 160 00:09:50.944 --> 00:09:53.584 the on the tarmac, they have to turn all the air conditioning off or the 161 00:09:53.584 --> 00:09:57.300 or the flight, They're in flight entertainment. You're basically sat there, and you're 162 00:09:57.300 --> 00:10:00.339 sat there for, like, 3 or 4 hours because they can't get a flight path 163 00:10:00.339 --> 00:10:03.620 to take off again. So you're stuck there until they can get another air traffic 164 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:07.220 control slot. And they walk walk around handing out these these packs of 165 00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:10.785 sandwiches. And I had a prawn sandwich, a 166 00:10:10.785 --> 00:10:14.385 shrimp sandwich. And about just before we landed in 167 00:10:14.385 --> 00:10:18.145 Miami, I'm starting to think, oh, I really don't feel good. I'm really not 168 00:10:18.145 --> 00:10:21.105 feeling this anymore. And, you you know, you when you have that sort of kind 169 00:10:21.105 --> 00:10:24.280 of throughput, you can tell what did it to you. You can't you really so 170 00:10:24.280 --> 00:10:27.720 that your brain knows what it was and I think either that's a 171 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:31.560 prawn. That's definitely prawn that's given it to me. So I get to Miami and 172 00:10:31.560 --> 00:10:35.320 I'm literally my sweat is pouring off me. I'm sweating. I'm sweating. I get 173 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:38.300 through passport, managed to find the toilet. So I'm at, unfortunately, 174 00:10:39.155 --> 00:10:42.595 both ends. And, you know, I hit and I was sweating and I was 175 00:10:42.595 --> 00:10:46.215 sweating. And then because we had this issue with the the 176 00:10:46.755 --> 00:10:50.355 the the landing in, Newfoundland and my 177 00:10:50.355 --> 00:10:53.889 flight to the Bahamas was then we had I had missed my connection. We had 178 00:10:53.889 --> 00:10:57.350 to get another connection or something. When I got to the Bahamas in this state, 179 00:10:57.569 --> 00:11:00.930 I was missing my luggage. So there I 180 00:11:00.930 --> 00:11:04.769 am in Nassau, Bahamas in the temperature 181 00:11:05.009 --> 00:11:07.454 I can't remember what time of year it was, but it was hot. The Bahamas 182 00:11:07.454 --> 00:11:11.154 is generally hot anytime we go there, but this was hot. And I turn up 183 00:11:11.214 --> 00:11:14.755 with no luggage. I get to the, I I was sharing 184 00:11:14.855 --> 00:11:18.654 a, like, an Airbnb equivalent in the nineties, whatever 185 00:11:18.654 --> 00:11:21.790 it was. Yeah. It was a a flat with a load of people also working 186 00:11:21.790 --> 00:11:24.830 for the bank. And someone ended up lending me this T shirt, and I I 187 00:11:24.830 --> 00:11:28.670 looked like, I don't know, this T shirt, like, 3 sizes too small, but 188 00:11:28.670 --> 00:11:32.350 I had to have something called this Christmas I had no luggage. I remember 189 00:11:32.350 --> 00:11:35.635 going to sleep that night in a in a room, and all I could hear 190 00:11:35.635 --> 00:11:38.935 was mosquitoes. It was like they were dive bombing me. I was 191 00:11:39.235 --> 00:11:42.995 like, All night, all all I could feel is mosquitoes everywhere. I had no luggage. 192 00:11:42.995 --> 00:11:46.515 I felt awful. I felt sweaty. So I feel I feel your 193 00:11:46.515 --> 00:11:50.115 pain, that turbulence, and then having to go to work that that day, covered in 194 00:11:50.115 --> 00:11:53.550 mosquitoes with food poisoning and their luggage in the barns. 195 00:11:53.850 --> 00:11:57.209 Wow. It's a glamorous life, isn't it? So I 196 00:11:57.370 --> 00:12:00.889 thankfully, that's scary. That's scary because you were, like, far away from 197 00:12:00.889 --> 00:12:04.715 things. But thankfully, my wife was there. It was just a few hours and 198 00:12:04.715 --> 00:12:07.695 I felt fine. Like that whole experience, what it sounds 199 00:12:08.235 --> 00:12:11.615 tumultuous, I say it's like it was a great week and it's 200 00:12:12.395 --> 00:12:16.075 I love my job. Like, I love that week because I love 201 00:12:16.075 --> 00:12:19.760 my job. But, yeah, I get it, man. 202 00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:23.200 That's, I get that. That's, it's scary being 6 203 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.959 anyway. Yeah. I don't know. In a foreign 204 00:12:26.959 --> 00:12:29.680 country and you've got all this stuff to do, you've got to get onto another 205 00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:32.480 plane. I mean, Miami is a big airport if you've got to go from domestic 206 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.225 to internal, international to domestic. It's a long walk and I was feeling 207 00:12:36.585 --> 00:12:39.785 I had no luggage and I was sweating and I was I yeah, it was 208 00:12:39.785 --> 00:12:43.545 just the whole stress. When did you feel better? Did you get better, like 209 00:12:43.545 --> 00:12:46.265 quickly or was it like I think by the by the next morning I was 210 00:12:46.265 --> 00:12:49.990 I was I was okay again, and they they they managed to find my luggage. 211 00:12:49.990 --> 00:12:52.550 It was on the next flight. I went back to the airport, and there it 212 00:12:52.550 --> 00:12:56.310 was on the carousel, picked it up, and had a 213 00:12:56.310 --> 00:12:59.830 shower and a change and put some clothes on. I was fine again. But, yeah, 214 00:12:59.830 --> 00:13:03.635 it was a, probably about 12 to 24 hours 215 00:13:03.635 --> 00:13:07.395 of of stress I didn't need. Wow. Yeah. It sounds 216 00:13:07.395 --> 00:13:11.235 like it. So what got you into doing later. We 217 00:13:11.235 --> 00:13:14.915 would we would jet skiing later. So sorry. I wanted to ask, what got you 218 00:13:14.915 --> 00:13:18.629 into doing this show? What it 219 00:13:18.629 --> 00:13:22.389 was, but I I was having conversations, you know, because I I started the 220 00:13:22.389 --> 00:13:25.910 business in 2017. I I found 221 00:13:25.910 --> 00:13:28.949 myself having lots of cups of coffee. You know, you go to London, you go 222 00:13:28.949 --> 00:13:32.695 to you're networking. I I'd stack the coffees up all day, so I'd go meet 223 00:13:32.695 --> 00:13:35.895 people at this cafe, meet people in this cafe, meet people. I was having these 224 00:13:35.895 --> 00:13:39.735 great conversations with people trying to build my network up. And then I started doing 225 00:13:39.735 --> 00:13:43.575 a few online meets and Zoom calls in the the early days. And 226 00:13:43.575 --> 00:13:46.935 I we'd finished the Zoom call, and we'd have this really great conversation. I'd say, 227 00:13:46.935 --> 00:13:50.480 I wish we'd recorded that. I wish we recorded that. And that's how it 228 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:54.160 it it came, really. I I decided that all these 229 00:13:54.160 --> 00:13:57.199 conversations we're having should be captured, and we can actually turn them into something. So 230 00:13:57.199 --> 00:14:00.500 I I decided pre cov this is pre covid. I wanted to 231 00:14:01.295 --> 00:14:04.735 have have conversations. I and I use the podcast as a way of networking, having 232 00:14:04.735 --> 00:14:08.435 conversation with people, and capturing these stories for for posterity, 233 00:14:08.654 --> 00:14:12.495 for for historical reference, or just to to share with other people. 234 00:14:12.495 --> 00:14:16.010 So that that's what started it, really, just that desire to share 235 00:14:16.010 --> 00:14:19.710 conversations. Awesome. To make a difference. 236 00:14:20.410 --> 00:14:24.190 Make a difference. Absolutely. To make a difference. And Yeah. And to and 237 00:14:24.730 --> 00:14:28.305 to and to feel that there's a purpose beyond just a chat, 238 00:14:28.305 --> 00:14:32.145 which which goes into the ether, and it gets forgotten. Because I have one of 239 00:14:32.145 --> 00:14:35.665 these brains that is, I find it very difficult to 240 00:14:35.665 --> 00:14:39.505 remember certain things. Like, if I go to the cinema, the 241 00:14:39.505 --> 00:14:42.705 next day, I really I've forgotten half the film. I don't remember what it was. 242 00:14:42.705 --> 00:14:46.190 I if I meet people, I forget their name really, really 243 00:14:46.190 --> 00:14:49.550 quickly. And because, again, you're doing so many Zoom calls, so many meetings. I meet 244 00:14:49.550 --> 00:14:52.850 I meet hundreds of people a month, and you can't remember everybody. 245 00:14:53.630 --> 00:14:56.665 And I found that I was having this conversation with people. Oh, yeah. It's good 246 00:14:56.665 --> 00:14:59.065 to see you again. I go, okay. Go on and remind me. Where did we 247 00:14:59.065 --> 00:15:02.905 meet before? And yeah. And this is just a great way of having conversations, 248 00:15:02.905 --> 00:15:06.505 and I still do it. I still I I thought I've got on LinkedIn sometimes 249 00:15:06.505 --> 00:15:09.820 to invite people onto the podcast. They say, we did that last year. Did we? 250 00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:13.579 Sorry. You're quite correct. Yes. We did. Yeah. 251 00:15:13.579 --> 00:15:17.339 I've got I I have got one of these memories that is is very good 252 00:15:17.339 --> 00:15:21.100 at certain things, but very bad at other things. I I think my brain just 253 00:15:21.100 --> 00:15:24.765 optimizes out and says the separation between need to remember 254 00:15:24.765 --> 00:15:28.525 and and doesn't matter. And if you fit into the doesn't matter pile, I 255 00:15:28.525 --> 00:15:32.285 will never remember that conversation again. But you we also had lasting impression 256 00:15:32.285 --> 00:15:35.325 because meeting you in Amsterdam all those years ago and, 257 00:15:36.449 --> 00:15:39.810 keeping in in loose contact, not active contact with each other. I get your 258 00:15:39.810 --> 00:15:43.649 newsletter. I see you doing stuff on on LinkedIn and stuff. So I guess you've 259 00:15:43.649 --> 00:15:47.329 you've penetrated into the must remember path. That's 260 00:15:47.329 --> 00:15:51.085 funny you should say that because, a year and a half ago, I started another 261 00:15:51.085 --> 00:15:54.845 master's in cognitive neuroscience. And this past semester, in fact, just last 262 00:15:54.845 --> 00:15:58.145 week, I had my final in neuroscience of memory and learning. 263 00:15:58.525 --> 00:16:01.920 And so I learned very diminutia 264 00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:05.660 about how the brain works around memory and learning. Yeah. And we're not our brains 265 00:16:05.660 --> 00:16:09.500 are not all the same. Right? Particularly around memory and learning. And 266 00:16:09.500 --> 00:16:13.340 the the the parts of our brain that do a memory, it's 267 00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:17.065 it's it's really unclear. Like, there are some things that are clear, but some 268 00:16:17.065 --> 00:16:20.825 things are just like in every class I've taken, usually sometime during the class, the 269 00:16:20.825 --> 00:16:24.665 teachers, like, shrugs their shoulders and says, and we don't know. Yeah. There's loads 270 00:16:24.665 --> 00:16:27.465 of stuff, you know. I I will be able to pull something out of my 271 00:16:27.465 --> 00:16:31.200 my my memory somehow, and I'll pluck 272 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.560 something out. It'll be a random fact or an anecdote or 273 00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:38.400 something, and I'll just drop it into the conversation. And my wife will look at 274 00:16:38.400 --> 00:16:42.160 me and go, you heard that yesterday, didn't you, on that show? And I 275 00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:44.865 went, yeah. She said, you're making it sound like you know what you're talking about. 276 00:16:44.865 --> 00:16:48.505 I said, well, I just I just hoover up knowledge, and then I I I 277 00:16:48.505 --> 00:16:51.464 know when to spit it back out again. But I I couldn't tell you how 278 00:16:51.464 --> 00:16:55.245 I remember or why I remember. It just becomes a nugget 279 00:16:55.305 --> 00:16:58.400 that gets delivered onto into my tongue and out of my mouth at the right 280 00:16:58.400 --> 00:17:01.520 moment at the right time. But you asked me about it now, I wouldn't really 281 00:17:01.520 --> 00:17:05.359 remember what what's that at. Really? But you're probably really 282 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:09.040 good at making matches because when we have a memory, it gets 283 00:17:09.040 --> 00:17:12.625 broken up and stored in different places. So the visual component of the 284 00:17:12.625 --> 00:17:15.825 memory would be stored in one part of the brain, and another part of the 285 00:17:15.825 --> 00:17:19.105 memory would be stored in another part of the brain, like a database. Right? And 286 00:17:19.105 --> 00:17:22.679 then there's, like, something that links it all together, and then 287 00:17:22.679 --> 00:17:26.119 that occurs, and then it can bring back it brings back the memory or it 288 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:27.659 could bring back parts of the memory. 289 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.580 Okay. So it's a bit yeah. Random retrieval. Yeah. 290 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.545 So indexed. Yeah. It's indexed. Yeah. Right. And another thing I 291 00:17:37.545 --> 00:17:41.165 learned was that we can we can well, we our brain 292 00:17:41.465 --> 00:17:45.005 extinguishes memory. Right? So we don't remember everything that happens. 293 00:17:46.184 --> 00:17:50.030 Imagine if you remembered everything that happens. Right, you could be very 294 00:17:50.030 --> 00:17:53.550 hard to function. And so there's a whole system in our brain that allows us 295 00:17:53.550 --> 00:17:57.310 to extinguish memories, which is really important for people with PTSD and 296 00:17:57.310 --> 00:18:00.050 depression and other mental illnesses that you can actually. 297 00:18:01.085 --> 00:18:04.765 Cause your brain to not remember something. You can weaken those 298 00:18:04.765 --> 00:18:08.365 connections. Yeah. I've noticed that our daughter's, 299 00:18:08.365 --> 00:18:12.045 what, 32 years old now. And when we get together, you 300 00:18:12.045 --> 00:18:15.780 know, you do the reminiscing, don't you? Humans like telling stories 301 00:18:15.780 --> 00:18:19.460 of the past and reminiscing and and bringing things. The way our daughter tells a 302 00:18:19.460 --> 00:18:23.300 story about our holidays or an event we did, and she 303 00:18:23.300 --> 00:18:27.140 has a different memory than I do. And sometimes I'll go, no. I just don't 304 00:18:27.140 --> 00:18:29.460 remember that at all. And I'll say, oh, what about this? And she said, I 305 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:33.025 don't remember that. So we've we've all latched on. This is part of the bias 306 00:18:33.025 --> 00:18:36.865 and, the way our brains work, isn't it, where we we store emotion with these 307 00:18:36.865 --> 00:18:40.625 memories. We store feelings, and different things resonate with us. And and if 308 00:18:40.625 --> 00:18:44.304 they're if they're not memorable, we just, as you say, purge them. Don't 309 00:18:44.304 --> 00:18:46.920 store them at all. Yeah. 310 00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:51.080 Yeah. Some things are just too, like, not interesting to store. 311 00:18:51.860 --> 00:18:55.540 Yeah. But to other people, they're they're they're meaningful. 100 to 312 00:18:55.540 --> 00:18:58.395 say. But you you get the same in 313 00:19:00.155 --> 00:19:03.855 crime. You know, police asking for photo fits and 314 00:19:04.155 --> 00:19:07.915 all recalling what did the perpetrator or the bad guy look like. And 315 00:19:07.915 --> 00:19:11.680 everyone everyone has a different view. Everyone remembers, yeah, 316 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.720 the color of his jacket was blue, and everyone said, no. No. It's green. And 317 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.440 no one said, no. He didn't have a jacket on at all. And everybody makes 318 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.120 this stuff up about they they rewrite their own memories, aren't they? Yeah. 319 00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:24.720 There's a reason for that because, you know, we one of the things that's great 320 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.934 about our brains, and this is getting to the conversation around bias, 321 00:19:28.875 --> 00:19:32.635 and why we have biases, is that we fill in 322 00:19:32.635 --> 00:19:36.395 the blanks. Right? If I tell you three 323 00:19:36.395 --> 00:19:39.615 pieces of information, you'll connect them and make up a story. 324 00:19:40.540 --> 00:19:44.220 Right? Like when you watch a movie, they don't 325 00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:47.600 usually show you every moment of like the protagonist 326 00:19:47.740 --> 00:19:51.260 day. But, you know, you think like, oh, they went from here to here and 327 00:19:51.260 --> 00:19:54.140 you in your in your mind, you go, can that make sense or how they 328 00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:57.885 did it? And that's how we have 329 00:19:57.885 --> 00:20:01.405 these biases. And because they're unconscious, we're not aware of 330 00:20:01.405 --> 00:20:05.245 them. They're always occurring. You know, if you drive by 331 00:20:05.245 --> 00:20:08.930 somebody's house and you look at the house and you 332 00:20:08.930 --> 00:20:12.690 see there's a car and there's a middle aged guy washing 333 00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:16.370 the car and a little child helping. Who's 334 00:20:16.370 --> 00:20:19.970 the who's the guy? It's 335 00:20:19.970 --> 00:20:23.755 dad. Right? That's the father. Probably. And yeah. Right. And that the little 336 00:20:23.755 --> 00:20:26.955 person's the son. And if there's a woman who's about the same age, that's probably 337 00:20:26.955 --> 00:20:30.475 the mom. And, like, if there's an older older woman, probably the 338 00:20:30.475 --> 00:20:33.835 grandmother. Right? So we make all these things up so we can make sense of 339 00:20:33.835 --> 00:20:37.480 the world. You know, the brain that we have is, you know, version 340 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.240 10 of hominids. You know, we we're about 300000 years old, 341 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.379 homo sapiens, but we're not the first version of hominids. 342 00:20:44.840 --> 00:20:48.120 And and the brain that we have was created not just the brain, but the 343 00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:49.635 brain and all the nervous system. 344 00:20:51.635 --> 00:20:55.175 Parasympathetic nervous system, the somatic, all the nerves in our body 345 00:20:55.555 --> 00:20:59.315 were created when the world was really dangerous. Right. It was, you know, 346 00:20:59.315 --> 00:21:03.075 dangerous 300000 years ago. So when you think about, well, if it's dangerous, what 347 00:21:03.075 --> 00:21:06.570 do we do? We have a brain that is super responsive to 348 00:21:06.570 --> 00:21:10.330 danger. And and even though we don't have those kind 349 00:21:10.330 --> 00:21:14.010 of deathly fears now, we have psychological fears. Right? 350 00:21:14.010 --> 00:21:17.450 But the primary reason for your show is that people feel like they 351 00:21:17.450 --> 00:21:20.805 belong because not what happens when somebody doesn't feel like they belong. 352 00:21:23.045 --> 00:21:26.885 Whether at their comfort zone that buzzwords like psychological safety, they 353 00:21:26.885 --> 00:21:30.645 they feel part of something, they feel strangers, they feel their 354 00:21:30.645 --> 00:21:34.245 fight, flight, freeze mechanism is is there, or they're hyper alert, all these kind 355 00:21:34.245 --> 00:21:37.970 of, as you say, the the parasympathetic nervous system's kicking in, the vagus 356 00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:41.810 nerves triggers, adrenaline's flowing, everything. You just feel uncomfortable. You don't feel you 357 00:21:41.810 --> 00:21:45.570 can relax, all those kind of feelings, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's the same thing 358 00:21:45.570 --> 00:21:48.345 that we felt when a lion was coming after us. 359 00:21:49.465 --> 00:21:52.905 But now it's I don't feel like I belong in this group or I think 360 00:21:52.905 --> 00:21:56.745 these people don't like me. Yeah. You're not 361 00:21:56.745 --> 00:21:59.784 gonna give your best self, are you? What what you're gonna do is you you 362 00:21:59.784 --> 00:22:03.549 either wanna run away or hide or or just 363 00:22:03.549 --> 00:22:06.770 keep looking for the exit. Yeah. Or attack somebody. 364 00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:11.070 Yeah. Or attack somebody. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You you you you on that defensive mode 365 00:22:11.070 --> 00:22:14.590 all the time, aren't you? I always I always think about it as, that 366 00:22:14.590 --> 00:22:18.365 old sitcom, Cheers. Remember the Canadian Canadian 367 00:22:18.365 --> 00:22:21.825 sitcom with Cheers? Where Yeah. A bar where everyone knows your name. 368 00:22:21.965 --> 00:22:25.725 That that always conjures up that sense of belonging. You walk in 369 00:22:25.725 --> 00:22:29.485 there. You got your stall. You got your friends. They know your name. They 370 00:22:29.485 --> 00:22:33.299 know your drink. You just fit back into it like you were 371 00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:37.059 only just left, and it could be 3 years later. You just pick up 372 00:22:37.059 --> 00:22:40.900 where you left off. And that's that's how I feel about 373 00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:44.600 belonging, that coffee shop that you know it's your coffee shop. 374 00:22:44.875 --> 00:22:47.434 And if you go to the other coffee shop, the other end of town, it's 375 00:22:47.434 --> 00:22:50.635 just not your coffee shop, is it? The chair is not as comfortable. The beans 376 00:22:50.635 --> 00:22:54.154 aren't as aren't as nice, that they're not roasting at the same. You just 377 00:22:54.154 --> 00:22:57.980 know that where you feel that sense of sense of 378 00:22:57.980 --> 00:23:01.740 rel where you can relax and let yourself go. So you're in 379 00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:05.500 England, you have that with pubs. Right? Yeah. People 380 00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:09.260 have their their their preferred their local, their preferred place after work, whatever. 381 00:23:09.260 --> 00:23:12.240 Yeah. I I used to I used to have a place like that in Zurich, 382 00:23:12.455 --> 00:23:15.575 actually. I was working out at the the same bank I was working out. We 383 00:23:15.575 --> 00:23:19.175 ended up in Bahamas. I worked in Zurich for about 8 or 9 months, and 384 00:23:19.175 --> 00:23:22.855 I was going out flying in and out every every weekend. And on the 385 00:23:22.855 --> 00:23:25.575 Thursday night before we flew back on the Friday, we always used to go and 386 00:23:25.575 --> 00:23:29.210 have a night in the old town in Zurich. And there's a bar, 387 00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:33.210 hotel called the Adler, which is Eagle in translation from German. 388 00:23:33.670 --> 00:23:37.190 And we and it was a piano bar. So we used to go there. We 389 00:23:37.190 --> 00:23:40.790 we get there about, I don't know, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock at night after being 390 00:23:40.950 --> 00:23:44.125 doing the old town and doing the bars. And we walk in there, and there 391 00:23:44.125 --> 00:23:47.804 was this big, gregacious barber that it was always there. He had 392 00:23:47.804 --> 00:23:51.565 massive, big, wide, red braces on, a big stripy shirt. 393 00:23:51.565 --> 00:23:54.785 And we walk in, he'd look at us, and he'd point his finger and go, 394 00:23:55.325 --> 00:23:59.090 it's there. You walk out to the bar. There's your double focus and tonics on 395 00:23:59.090 --> 00:24:02.450 the bar waiting for you. The piano kicks in. We all sat there at the 396 00:24:02.450 --> 00:24:06.130 piano. We're singing along, and that was our place. We were there 397 00:24:06.130 --> 00:24:09.490 every Thursday night every Thursday night for every 398 00:24:09.490 --> 00:24:13.295 year. Wow. And we we we'd end up flying with a hangover 399 00:24:13.295 --> 00:24:15.615 the next day because it was that good. We're getting to 4 in the morning 400 00:24:15.615 --> 00:24:19.055 or something. But, yeah, that was our that's our belonging. So, yeah, 401 00:24:19.055 --> 00:24:22.515