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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 148
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Allyship in Action
Joanne Lockwood: and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Julie
Joanne Lockwood: Kratz. Julie is an allyship and
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion speaker, consultant and author
Joanne Lockwood: who helps leaders foster workplace environments.
Joanne Lockwood: She is a Forbes contributor and TEDx speaker and
Joanne Lockwood: draws on her corporate experience to our organisations
Joanne Lockwood: with actionable strategies for allyship and
Joanne Lockwood: belonging. When I asked Julie to describe her
Joanne Lockwood: superpower, she said it is her ability to
Joanne Lockwood: transform allyship into actionable strategies
Joanne Lockwood: that inspire inclusive leadership.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello. Hello Julie. Welcome to the show.
Julie Kratz: Thanks so much for having me, Joanne. Absolute pleasure. We just
Joanne Lockwood: chatted away for probably half an hour in the green room and burnt a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of time. A fascinating conversation. I can't wait to bring some of that into
Joanne Lockwood: the conversation for our listeners today. So thank you for joining us. So
Joanne Lockwood: Julie, you have been on a journey from
Joanne Lockwood: corporate and you've pivoted to become a leading voice
Joanne Lockwood: in allyship and inspiring others. So what sparked your
Joanne Lockwood: passion for creating more inclusive workplaces?
Julie Kratz: Great question. I So I spent 12 years in corporate before starting my
Julie Kratz: own business nearly 10 years ago. So big year this year,
Julie Kratz: 10th anniversary. I never really dreamed of being an entrepreneur,
Julie Kratz: but it was out of the necessity of my
Julie Kratz: own difficult time surviving in corporate America. So I'm here in the
Julie Kratz: States and it's, you know, I'm sure similar in other parts
Julie Kratz: of the world, but that sense of belonging,
Julie Kratz: the sense of inclusion, having leaders I could trust and feel
Julie Kratz: psychologically safe with, just didn't exist.
Julie Kratz: And I continued to think it was me and I needed to
Julie Kratz: change or it was the industry or if I get my mba, then
Julie Kratz: things will be better. And no matter how
Julie Kratz: hard I worked, I kept finding the same problem
Julie Kratz: and Then it dawned on me when I had my daughter, I just
Julie Kratz: couldn't leave her to go to a workplace and
Julie Kratz: work that didn't. And this happens a lot to folks that
Julie Kratz: are caregivers, men and women and non binary folks like
Julie Kratz: it's you just realise your
Julie Kratz: purpose of life is much deeper than a paycheck. And
Julie Kratz: she was a year old. I'm the primary breadwinner and took
Julie Kratz: a leap of faith that other people were having a similar challenge. I did
Julie Kratz: and needed tools that I didn't have when I was a leader.
Julie Kratz: And that's when next pivot point was born. And
Julie Kratz: it became quite obvious to me in the first few years
Julie Kratz: as I spent time in the community and talked with folks especially of different
Julie Kratz: lived experience and identities from me that
Julie Kratz: we needed allies. You know, us talking women, talking to each other about
Julie Kratz: women's quote unquote issues which are societal issues
Julie Kratz: isn't helpful. Um, it's therapeutic. It feels
Julie Kratz: good, you know, to rant in the moment but it doesn't really
Julie Kratz: evoke change. And so how do we engage allies
Julie Kratz: in the conversation? It became quite clear to me that we
Julie Kratz: needed to broaden the conversation. And so that's really my
Julie Kratz: life's work. What I hope to leave the world with more allies in it
Julie Kratz: than I found. I like that, I really like that because that, that, that sort
Joanne Lockwood: of aligns with some of my ethos if you like. I, I get frustrated that
Joanne Lockwood: I can't change the world. But what I came to realise was I can't change
Joanne Lockwood: myself and I can change how I show up and I can
Joanne Lockwood: show change how I influence those around me. So
Joanne Lockwood: that's really the core of allyship really, isn't it? Isn't it just
Joanne Lockwood: showing up and being the best you, you can be.
Julie Kratz: Yeah, I think, I think that's the
Julie Kratz: basic premise of allyship. The
Julie Kratz: challenge is the works evolved and you know, we can look at the
Julie Kratz: year 2020, right, and all the allies that came out.
Julie Kratz: It was much more of a performance. What we would call performative
Julie Kratz: allyship is oh, I posted, I bought the
Julie Kratz: thing from the black owned business. I, you know, said me
Julie Kratz: too is wrong. You know, just. That's great.
Julie Kratz: We absolutely need that. However, we need
Julie Kratz: people to do more than that. And it's a big ask if you think about
Julie Kratz: it. I've been on my own journey for the last 10 years.
Julie Kratz: I regretfully have not always been the best ally
Julie Kratz: myself. I said and done things that were inappropriate. I
Julie Kratz: have said things that were not helpful and luckily
Julie Kratz: people have called me in on that. And instead of getting defensive,
Julie Kratz: which is kind of easy to do,
Julie Kratz: decided to use it as fuel to get better. And
Julie Kratz: you know, I think, Joanne, we've asked people, it's a big ask,
Julie Kratz: I think, for what it means to be an active ally.
Julie Kratz: And that's where we're at now as we head into 2025.
Julie Kratz: Right. Like thinking about the political polarisation, you know, especially
Julie Kratz: in my country, I'm deeply concerned about our
Julie Kratz: future. We need people in positions of power to
Julie Kratz: share their power. And that, that is like a real
Julie Kratz: conundrum. Right? Like, because if you have power, why do you want to share
Julie Kratz: it? And we're seeing examples of people that they have power and
Julie Kratz: they want more power. It's like, don't you have enough? Like at some
Julie Kratz: point, don't you want to share? Just for context. So you're,
Joanne Lockwood: you live right in the middle of middle America, Indiana, I think it says you,
Joanne Lockwood: you're in. Yes. And you mentioned 2020 and
Joanne Lockwood: looking back, I mean it seems like yesterday, but also so far,
Joanne Lockwood: so far back in time. It was pre Covid, at the beginning
Joanne Lockwood: we had George Floyd, which started the Black Lives Matter or
Joanne Lockwood: reignited the Black Lives Matter. We had Harvey Weinstein and all
Joanne Lockwood: those other cases around the MeToo which sparked that in the US
Joanne Lockwood: and some incidents in the UK as well.
Joanne Lockwood: And then we had a lockdown and that
Joanne Lockwood: created this huge wellbeing vacuum where people,
Joanne Lockwood: everybody was suffering in a, in a, in a different
Joanne Lockwood: way for common cause. Corporate America, corporate uk,
Joanne Lockwood: corporate Europe, corporate everywhere. We think, how are we going to look after our people?
Joanne Lockwood: And suddenly we saw all of this well being initiatives, people
Joanne Lockwood: caring about people suddenly because even the people with
Joanne Lockwood: privilege were being impacted by Covid. So suddenly they got
Joanne Lockwood: it. And here we are in 2025 and the
Joanne Lockwood: world's gone backwards again, hasn't it?
Julie Kratz: Yeah, it's like a step forward, two steps back. I just
Julie Kratz: detest that analogy, but I think that's very
Julie Kratz: keen to describe where we're at right now, that it
Julie Kratz: evoked generosity and a shared experience
Julie Kratz: and a humility and a vulnerability in all of us because all
Julie Kratz: of us were deeply affected. There wasn't a single human on the planet, like
Julie Kratz: an extreme isolationist that didn't feel it right.
Julie Kratz: But now it's led to us being more isolated and
Julie Kratz: xenophobic and wanting to control
Julie Kratz: things and it's almost like a whip effect.
Julie Kratz: And I don't know what's in the future, but I have
Julie Kratz: to think the reason we're getting the backlash is
Julie Kratz: because it's working. There wouldn't be a target on
Julie Kratz: DEI if it
Julie Kratz: wasn't achieving some success. You wouldn't bother with
Julie Kratz: it. So it's a long game and I struggle
Julie Kratz: with that because I am a very impatient person. Sometimes
Julie Kratz: I think I just wasn't born at the right time. That I would have much
Julie Kratz: more impact if we could be 20 years in the future where things would be
Julie Kratz: better. But maybe now is the right time. This
Julie Kratz: tumultuous turmoil that we're in, kind of getting used to
Julie Kratz: it, you know, I would have been alarmed 10 years ago to see news stories
Julie Kratz: we're seeing today. And now we're kind of desensitised,
Julie Kratz: like, okay, yep, that's happening, sure, why not?
Julie Kratz: But the silver lining to all of this is
Julie Kratz: change is happening demographically.
Julie Kratz: It's demographics in our country for younger
Julie Kratz: generations are. They are what they are. My
Julie Kratz: daughter's generation, my daughter's 10, it is majority non white.
Julie Kratz: That is a fact. And they will be entering the workforce much like Gen Z
Julie Kratz: did, with the expectation of a diverse and inclusive experience. So
Julie Kratz: you can legislate around it. You can try to de.
Julie Kratz: Knock. I don't even have indoctrin. The children were doing, they were not
Julie Kratz: doing whatever you can try. But it's happening and
Julie Kratz: it's going to continue to happen. And so we just have to keep. For
Julie Kratz: me it's like keep that long view. 10, 20 years
Julie Kratz: from now is probably the work that we're doing now will
Julie Kratz: manifest much later. Is that as you mentioned,
Joanne Lockwood: that I'm sort of pondering in my head, is that, is that what's going on?
Joanne Lockwood: Is it that the fact that the people in power, people have the privilege are
Joanne Lockwood: becoming the minority and they're almost like having to hack themselves in their
Joanne Lockwood: own little communes or I would in the UK world, I'd
Joanne Lockwood: say in their castle. I'm pretty sure in America you don't have so many castles.
Joanne Lockwood: But I'm thinking about their in their old Norman Roman castles and putting
Joanne Lockwood: the drawbridge up, hiding and saying, look, hang on a minute. If we stay in
Joanne Lockwood: our castle and fight everybody off, we'll keep our
Joanne Lockwood: power and privilege against the marauders and the unwashed.
Joanne Lockwood: And the difference is that what's going on? Are people scared that they're losing their
Joanne Lockwood: right to govern, if you like. Yeah, I think that's exactly
Julie Kratz: it. There's a few falsehoods at play on the
Julie Kratz: concept of the zero sum game. This is a big problem
Julie Kratz: we have in capitalist societies where they're very much I
Julie Kratz: win, you lose. I mean, we're taught that from a young age playing games. I
Julie Kratz: hate losing and someone else winning doesn't mean I
Julie Kratz: lose. Like generally speaking, when we make things better
Julie Kratz: for the most marginalised, we make them better for everyone. Right. There's the curb
Julie Kratz: cut effect for just disabled people like cut curbs.
Julie Kratz: It made it easier for me as a walker, a runner, a
Julie Kratz: stroller person, a bike rider. So it's,
Julie Kratz: it's this zero sum game that we really have to cheque people on. How is
Julie Kratz: making things better for someone else costing us? What is it costing us?
Julie Kratz: And if you're in a position of power, I think is a really good gut
Julie Kratz: cheque. I also think there is this last
Julie Kratz: stand kind of narrative and I honestly thought we
Julie Kratz: got that over with first Trump presidency, but apparently
Julie Kratz: there's more ammo ready to come out. Not to use a
Julie Kratz: violent analogy, but let's be honest, I mean it is,
Julie Kratz: it does feel like to be white,
Julie Kratz: for example. I think in, especially in America where we have not addressed
Julie Kratz: our racial past, it is barely taught in schools, it is very much
Julie Kratz: like slavery happened. We're good. Move on with your
Julie Kratz: life. When you don't acknowledge
Julie Kratz: our problematic history, you're much more likely to
Julie Kratz: repeat it. We know that's why we teach history.
Julie Kratz: And so this whole. I have to take the. I need
Julie Kratz: to hold on to the power as long as I can possibly hold
Julie Kratz: on to that. And if that, I think in our country is
Julie Kratz: whiteness, those are the people in power. 70
Julie Kratz: plus percent of C suite leaders, Congress, you know, you
Julie Kratz: just look at any body of power and this is really worldwide,
Julie Kratz: but especially in our country is white and
Julie Kratz: that doesn't reflect the diversity of the
Julie Kratz: population. And I think too one last
Julie Kratz: hypothesis is I think they're worried that there's going to be some
Julie Kratz: revenge when the people you've kept down start
Julie Kratz: to come up. Yeah, kind of like you think about
Julie Kratz: revolutions in Europe. I mean they're setting the conditions for that
Julie Kratz: to happen right now and I don't want to be a doomsday, but
Julie Kratz: you can't keep people down for so long
Julie Kratz: before they don't revolt or resist. It kind of happened in South Africa when
Joanne Lockwood: the white minority rule came to an end and the black
Joanne Lockwood: majority took over. The black population
Joanne Lockwood: repossessed the white farms, the white people became
Joanne Lockwood: marginalised or correctly marginalised.
Joanne Lockwood: The country was reset and there's that active purging of the white
Joanne Lockwood: population out of positions of power in organisations and
Joanne Lockwood: land seizures and everything. I guess there is a track record here of what
Joanne Lockwood: happens when the, the tide flips and so, yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: mean there's. Was it.
Joanne Lockwood: Quoting US politics is probably not my strong point, but was it JFK said
Joanne Lockwood: a rising tide floats all boats the same or something? Yeah,
Julie Kratz: that was. But that analogy is so, so true.
Joanne Lockwood: That was a 1960s thing and I think we've, we've forgotten that. I,
Joanne Lockwood: Richard Nixon, if I remember correctly, was trying to. Before he was
Joanne Lockwood: taken out of power, he was trying to get universal basic income. And if he'd
Joanne Lockwood: have carried on with his presidency, it may well be that US implemented
Joanne Lockwood: UBI in some shape or form. And those were radical policies to create
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive environments and recognising the population, it's way ahead of its
Joanne Lockwood: time. And now we've got Roe versus Wade being
Joanne Lockwood: overturned and other things. In the us permanent action is
Joanne Lockwood: probably. Going to be gay marriage next. I'm not even going to be surprised.
Julie Kratz: Right. Tale though, isn't it,
Joanne Lockwood: where they suddenly you're in a, you're in a same sex relationship and the next
Joanne Lockwood: day you're not. Right. You're not married, not
Joanne Lockwood: married anymore. You lose all your benefits, lose your rights and everything. You can't,
Joanne Lockwood: can't fly on that passport. Trans people, they can't drive anymore in
Joanne Lockwood: Florida because their past, their driving licence has suddenly been revoked.
Julie Kratz: Yep. Yeah, got it right,
Joanne Lockwood: didn't she? Yeah. In the 1990s, I was like, wow, how did you see that?
Julie Kratz: Yeah, that's one of the disturbing shows that I
Julie Kratz: allow myself to watch because I have to be very mindful about doing
Julie Kratz: inclusion work day in, day out, 40,
Julie Kratz: 50 hours a week is, as you know, it's a lot,
Julie Kratz: it's very taxing, mentally hard on our
Julie Kratz: health. And Handmaid's Tale is one of
Julie Kratz: my ones that I can get into for some reason because I think it's
Julie Kratz: like, are we headed in this direction? And that was my first thought
Julie Kratz: on November 6th when I woke up to the news.
Julie Kratz: I was one completely shocked. And
Julie Kratz: that just speaks to like the echo chambers we have here. I had no
Julie Kratz: idea 51% of our country felt that way. I
Julie Kratz: just didn't, I didn't think it was possible.
Julie Kratz: In my home state, we overwhelmingly voted for him.
Julie Kratz: In my county, luckily we went the other direction. So
Julie Kratz: we're just all in our own spaces talking to each other
Julie Kratz: and not talking to the other groups.
Julie Kratz: And this is how you get something like the Handmaid's Tale. This
Julie Kratz: is how you get a reversal of rights when you see each other. As the
Joanne Lockwood: enemy and dividing is finding those
Joanne Lockwood: probar and Those differences between you out. So suddenly you're
Joanne Lockwood: polarising women, you're polarising Hispanic and black
Joanne Lockwood: people, you polarising this. They go for him. Yeah,
Julie Kratz: hold your country's trash and you're rapists and you
Julie Kratz: voted for him. Like I, part of me wants to be like,
Julie Kratz: you deserve this, like, you voted for this. See what
Julie Kratz: happens. And that's spiteful and mean. But that was
Julie Kratz: my reaction for the first few weeks. And as
Julie Kratz: I've, you know, now two months later, kind of marinated on it,
Julie Kratz: it's, it's gonna be okay.
Julie Kratz: The conditions, what's, what's interesting here in the States and I know we have
Julie Kratz: a ripple effect across the world and luckily in the uk, where you're at, hopefully
Julie Kratz: you're on the other side of this. So hopeful for y'all, but where we're at,
Julie Kratz: we're still here wrestling with this
Julie Kratz: is he's setting up the conditions
Julie Kratz: for, at a minimum, a deep
Julie Kratz: resistance movement, if not a revolution.
Julie Kratz: And I don't use those words lightly. I don't think we're like civil war,
Julie Kratz: but we're really marching up to something that's going
Julie Kratz: to be a very deep conflict. And we know
Julie Kratz: from the first presidency MeToo happened his first year.
Julie Kratz: I don't think that's a coincidence when you have a known rapist and
Julie Kratz: sexual harasser in office. And like you said, Black Lives
Julie Kratz: Matter reignited. Granted, pandemic, George Floyd was
Julie Kratz: fuel. But would that still have happened if
Julie Kratz: Biden or somebody say, reasonable, but somebody
Julie Kratz: that's not, you know. Yeah, racist
Joanne Lockwood: was in office? Maybe, maybe, maybe not
Julie Kratz: so. And most of the people in my profession
Julie Kratz: are like, let's give it six months, let's see what
Julie Kratz: happens. I don't think people are going to take this. I just
Julie Kratz: don't. 49%, 50%
Julie Kratz: of us, whatever it is, like, we're not going to take it.
Joanne Lockwood: It's got Senate, it's got Congress, it's got everything, aren't they? I mean, there's no
Joanne Lockwood: legislative sort of boundaries now Supreme
Joanne Lockwood: Court, who's going to say no? Who's going to the military?
Julie Kratz: Right. Well, and that's another thing he wants to use. I mean, the slim margin
Julie Kratz: in the House. Right. And not all Republicans are Trumpers.
Julie Kratz: Right. So, like that the House has one
Julie Kratz: vote to lose. So I, I doubt. And that,
Julie Kratz: that's really a two year thing. So we'll have the two year elections, the
Julie Kratz: midterms in what, 20, 26.
Julie Kratz: So there's really two years to get things through. And even that's Going to be
Julie Kratz: slim slum margins. I don't want to be dismissive of what's at
Julie Kratz: stake here. I love my country and it's
Julie Kratz: disturbing. The one thing we did learn from separating
Julie Kratz: from English power is to not let change happen quickly.
Julie Kratz: So our founding fathers, as problematic as they were,
Julie Kratz: did bake into our systems that you can't change things
Julie Kratz: very swiftly. So change takes forever here.
Julie Kratz: So this might be the part that's like a good thing.
Joanne Lockwood: The Constitution is so difficult, isn't it? Apparently it's so difficult you
Julie Kratz: can't add an amendment. I mean, we can't even get the Equal Rights Amendment amendment
Julie Kratz: passed from the 70s for women. Like, that's just bonkers.
Julie Kratz: It's not going to happen. Like, it, it takes so much to get a
Julie Kratz: majority in the Senate or the House. So what can he do, though? Executive
Julie Kratz: orders. So I, I think if you're an immigrant in this country, especially
Julie Kratz: one that's not fully legalised, there's some deep. I'd be very
Julie Kratz: deeply concerned if I were you and I empathise
Julie Kratz: deeply. I love immigrants. Every immigrant I've ever interacted with
Julie Kratz: has been a very positive experience. So I have no idea. People are
Julie Kratz: fearful and we have a labour shortage. Like, what are we, what are we doing
Julie Kratz: here? Like, these are great workers for our economy.
Julie Kratz: I don't, I don't understand that narrative. But what he is very
Julie Kratz: good at doing is creating fear of the other. And the other
Julie Kratz: could be black people, brown people, women, trans people,
Julie Kratz: gay people. It's just you're the other. And if you're not,
Julie Kratz: you know, the fit in that bell curve, like you said,
Julie Kratz: the. And like, if you don't fit into this, like,
Julie Kratz: prototypical type of, like, who's in power, white,
Julie Kratz: straight, cis, able bodied man, then you're the other.
Julie Kratz: The problem with that is, is that's a very slim part of our population.
Julie Kratz: So you've got like, let's throw out numbers here, but I would guess
Julie Kratz: 60, 70% of people that don't fall into that box
Julie Kratz: that aren't going to put up with this. So we'll
Julie Kratz: see. We'll see. What I do love about my country
Julie Kratz: is we love a good social movement and we will get
Julie Kratz: one going here. So I have faithfully chosen the
Julie Kratz: word resistance for this year. I can't wait. I will not
Julie Kratz: be starting a resistance movement, but if anyone wants
Julie Kratz: to, please email me. I'll do everything to support you. I just don't want to
Julie Kratz: be that person. Yeah, maybe. Rosa, the term resistance
Joanne Lockwood: implies a struggle, a Fight or something. Maybe
Joanne Lockwood: friction slow things down, create. Put
Joanne Lockwood: sand in the ointment to grit things up a bit, to create
Joanne Lockwood: noise and to create great thinking is. I think it's what we're about as
Joanne Lockwood: DEI practitioners, isn't it really? It's about stopping, pausing, thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: reflecting, considering the needs of all,
Joanne Lockwood: not just the needs of the one. It's a bit like Spock on Touch
Joanne Lockwood: the needs of the one. Many outrage the needs of the one, isn't it? It's
Joanne Lockwood: trying to go back to that kind of altruistic view of the world.
Julie Kratz: And I think it just an understanding of what. What
Julie Kratz: doesn't benefit me can benefit me,
Julie Kratz: if that makes sense. Like providing, like you said, like universal health
Julie Kratz: care. Like we know everyone was fighting Obamacare back at.
Julie Kratz: You know, I myself wasn't a huge fan of it initially. Now, as a small
Julie Kratz: business owner with a family to support, I am so thankful
Julie Kratz: I have that and that that's not going away.
Julie Kratz: He tried the first. It's not going to go away. So
Julie Kratz: when we provide for other people, we provide for ourselves. Like you don't
Julie Kratz: have to. I didn't have to even like individually benefit from
Julie Kratz: that to recognise it's helping other people, it's helping our
Julie Kratz: systems be better to provide care and have
Julie Kratz: support mechanisms for people because if they feel supported then they're
Julie Kratz: going to be able to contribute more to society and that
Julie Kratz: benefits all of us. Somehow that utilitarianism like
Julie Kratz: that has been lost that narrative and I
Julie Kratz: don't know how to change people's thinking or not even change to
Julie Kratz: shift people's thinking. Like you said, it's just like these little nudges. That's what
Julie Kratz: I'm personally struggling with in the work right now. The people that we need to
Julie Kratz: care. Don'T seem to care, like we said,
Joanne Lockwood: about providing things for others that don't
Joanne Lockwood: necessarily seem to benefit us. Right now
Joanne Lockwood: I'm a week away from being 60
Joanne Lockwood: and I benefit from
Joanne Lockwood: lifts and escalators and
Joanne Lockwood: eyesight. My hearing is not as good as it was, I'm not as able,
Joanne Lockwood: my hips don't work as they used to and all this kind of thing. So
Joanne Lockwood: I do like a good travelator from time to time. You know, I can't carry
Joanne Lockwood: my luggage all the stairs anymore. I'm not 25. So
Joanne Lockwood: I'm now benefiting from the infrastructure that society has put in
Joanne Lockwood: place for people who need it from a disability point of view,
Joanne Lockwood: because I'm getting to the point where I'm now less. Describe myself as less
Joanne Lockwood: able, less Capable due to age. So we'll go skiing and break
Joanne Lockwood: a leg. Suddenly you are in need of support and healthcare
Joanne Lockwood: and access. So it happens to us all.
Julie Kratz: On ageism is the biggest ism of them all. We're,
Julie Kratz: we're fearful of our own mortality because the likelihood
Julie Kratz: of you becoming disabled at some point in your
Julie Kratz: life is extremely high. Like it's almost inevitable.
Julie Kratz: And so you're pointing that out. We don't want to think about that because it's,
Julie Kratz: it's too scary to fathom, like our own vulnerability. And I
Julie Kratz: think that's the heart of all the isms. We're too afraid
Julie Kratz: of accepting that
Julie Kratz: it somehow challenges our own virtues or our
Julie Kratz: own self image. And
Julie Kratz: that's deep stuff, you know, I don't know, I reflect on my own
Julie Kratz: journey and I don't know how it shifted for me,
Julie Kratz: but I often think like once you have that epiphany or eye opening
Julie Kratz: moment, you can't unsee it. I'm also curious, you know the people that
Julie Kratz: watch the George Floyd video, right. Because we were stuck at home and
Julie Kratz: you see this video and it's. I never watched it so I, I
Julie Kratz: couldn't have. You watched that eight minute video.
Julie Kratz: Something moved inside you. Some of it obviously blurred
Joanne Lockwood: out sort of the actual foot on the neck face
Joanne Lockwood: bit. But yeah, yeah, the eye can't breathe. Already at that
Julie Kratz: point. And when my husband showed it to me, I was pregnant, he put it
Julie Kratz: in my face. I was like, I can't, I cannot watch that.
Julie Kratz: And I was like, this happens all the time. Why do people care now?
Julie Kratz: And that's, that's where we're at again. It's like what
Julie Kratz: catalytic moment do we need? Like what does it take to
Julie Kratz: get people's attention? I'm deeply curious
Julie Kratz: about that. I don't know if you can manufacture it or plan for it.
Julie Kratz: I think it's a spontaneous thing that happens just at the
Julie Kratz: right time. So that's why
Julie Kratz: I'm kind of thankful that he's around. I just hate saying
Julie Kratz: his name. Hopefully listeners, you know what I'm talking about. It
Joanne Lockwood: brings January 6th, Capitol Hill. @ the end of his
Joanne Lockwood: last term that turned into a kind of a
Joanne Lockwood: revolution, but nothing ever came of it. Locked a few people up
Joanne Lockwood: who are going to be released in a few weeks time. No doubt they could
Joanne Lockwood: be given pardons. And you're coming,
Joanne Lockwood: you're giving a licence for people to bear arms.
Julie Kratz: Yeah. And I mean you don't even have to look in our news cycle here
Julie Kratz: in the US very often see the New Orleans
Julie Kratz: terrorist attack or whatever we're calling it. You know,
Julie Kratz: the cyber truck exploding or the Tesla. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, yeah. Taking matters into their own hands, it's like
Julie Kratz: vigilanteism is just. I mean, hey, if you
Julie Kratz: want guns in people's hands, be prepared for the consequences,
Julie Kratz: which I don't love. But we're just so
Julie Kratz: desensitised to all of these things, it doesn't even faze me
Julie Kratz: anymore. The school shootings still get me. Because that's just
Julie Kratz: extremely unacceptable for young people. It's crazy. It's crazy.
Joanne Lockwood: As a Brit, you look at it and think
Joanne Lockwood: the zero sum game is that if people carry
Joanne Lockwood: guns, I have to carry a gun. What we need is more guns to
Joanne Lockwood: scare more people. So if I, if I don't have a gun, I'm more likely
Joanne Lockwood: to get shot. I just can't see that game winning.
Joanne Lockwood: The bigger the gun. Everyone has a bigger gun. And at what
Joanne Lockwood: point do you stop? Apparently semi automatic rifles or automatic
Joanne Lockwood: rifles, machine guns, rocket launchers are kind of American
Joanne Lockwood: rights to bear arms apparently. Yeah, I don't see that one
Julie Kratz: changing. There's just too much, too much angst and money.
Joanne Lockwood: Too much money. The NRA and all this sort of stuff has got
Joanne Lockwood: politicians. It's like the fossil fuel, petroleum oil, it's all
Joanne Lockwood: too ingrained. Which is why climate change is being poo pooed. Because there's
Joanne Lockwood: no money in climate change at the moment. Because the people making batteries are the
Joanne Lockwood: Chinese, not the Americans. Right, yeah, that's the
Julie Kratz: whole thing too. Yeah. You look at again what's happening in LA right now.
Julie Kratz: The city, I feel people. But a fire has
Julie Kratz: never approached the city in this way before. And if climate change not real,
Julie Kratz: then what the heck's happening? You know, it's, it's
Julie Kratz: interesting the to me what we choose to accept,
Julie Kratz: that's just like. Yeah, that's just the way it is. Kids getting shot up at
Julie Kratz: a school, cities being burned down. Okay, that's just,
Joanne Lockwood: that's desensitised. Don't you. It doesn't shock anymore. Is that the
Joanne Lockwood: issue? Yeah. Oh totally. And I think
Julie Kratz: you know, to our DEI work, that's a big problem we have right now. The
Julie Kratz: news cycle is these headlines. It's a clickbaity
Julie Kratz: negativity bias on amped
Julie Kratz: up human brain is wired to pay attention to
Julie Kratz: negative things more than positive things for our survival. Right. We had to scan
Julie Kratz: the environment. Sabre Tooth Tiger, you better be paying attention. Obviously
Julie Kratz: today that's not the same. But who are the predators? What is
Julie Kratz: the scare tactic? And these headlines, even
Julie Kratz: positive stories. So at the time we're recording,
Julie Kratz: McDonald's tracked on DEI, right?
Julie Kratz: And I have people telling me this, like, that's actually true. If you look at
Julie Kratz: what they did, they put things back in the franchise's hands, which.
Julie Kratz: That makes sense, that the franchises should be reflecting their local
Julie Kratz: communities that are probably very diverse and distinct. And they're still
Julie Kratz: supporting their employee resource groups or affinity groups. They're still supporting
Julie Kratz: a lot of the criteria. They just backing out of a couple things.
Julie Kratz: Everyone does that in any strategy, DEI or any
Julie Kratz: competitive advantage strategy. You don't keep it forever, you shift
Julie Kratz: it. And so what if we shift the language to inclusion, belonging,
Julie Kratz: culture, I don't care, call it whatever you want, just do
Julie Kratz: the work. And we're so busy defending
Julie Kratz: the work that we're not doing the work that's on
Julie Kratz: purpose. Like, that is an intentional strategy that's being
Julie Kratz: used against us. And I just, after two years of enduring this
Julie Kratz: perceived backlash, had my second
Julie Kratz: best year out of 10 last year as a DEI business owner,
Julie Kratz: just refused to play into this narrative. So one
Julie Kratz: of the things I'm personally doing is I have a lot of PR people that
Julie Kratz: contact me because they want to be on my podcast, my Forbes column,
Julie Kratz: which is great, it's interesting to me, but they like to pitch negative
Julie Kratz: stories. And I just started writing back, I'll take positive stories,
Julie Kratz: please. And you know what it's changed is they started saying, like, I'll work
Julie Kratz: on that, thank you for that feedback. Like, well, maybe they'll do that with other
Julie Kratz: people too, you know, like, I think we need to push back on
Julie Kratz: the pushback. I'm sick of playing defence, I want to play some
Julie Kratz: offence. I find myself doing that with my LinkedIn post. I did a
Joanne Lockwood: poll end of last year, it said, DEI must
Joanne Lockwood: die, yes or no. And it had the most engagement I've
Joanne Lockwood: had on a post in many, many years. Because people really polarised
Joanne Lockwood: around, yeah, dei's had its day. It's all this, it's all that, and everyone's going,
Joanne Lockwood: no, no, no. And some people thought I was just rearranging the words. I
Joanne Lockwood: was obviously d, I must die. But it is a play on words.
Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, you got the most. And just there was this polarisation occurred
Joanne Lockwood: and it was. We used negative hooks. You say the headlines, people don't read the
Joanne Lockwood: article, they read the headline and use their confirmation bias and
Joanne Lockwood: their beliefs to extrapolate what that means without reading the
Joanne Lockwood: detail. And it's the tactic of the media to get the clicks to get
Joanne Lockwood: the shock, to get the awe. Totally. And it's working
Julie Kratz: and we're letting it work, all of us. You know, if I look through my
Julie Kratz: LinkedIn feed for a pulse, it's the only social media I allow myself to consume
Julie Kratz: anymore for my mental health. It's still quite toxic. You know,
Julie Kratz: people actively commenting, you know, it's like, why are you following me
Julie Kratz: if you don't want inclusion? Like, stop following
Julie Kratz: me. That's on you. That's, that's, that's actually my superpower
Joanne Lockwood: is because I'm, I'm not, I don't hide that I'm a
Joanne Lockwood: trans woman. I polarise people. Therefore the people who I polarise, they don't want to
Joanne Lockwood: talk to me, they just never contact me. I just don't get anyone phone me
Joanne Lockwood: up. So the people who phone me are the people who want to talk to
Joanne Lockwood: me and are interested. So I think it's a great marketing tactic. It's, it's
Joanne Lockwood: beautiful. I don't know if you have Marmite in the us. It's like a Vegemite
Joanne Lockwood: type, really, kind of yeast extract and it's quite a
Joanne Lockwood: sharp, strong taste. And Marmite is known for being, you love it or you hate
Joanne Lockwood: it. So we want to. In the same way
Joanne Lockwood: that the headlines you're saying are polarising negatively,
Joanne Lockwood: actually speaking up as a DEI practitioner, saying, this is my values, this is who
Joanne Lockwood: I am, and encouraging businesses to do the same. You
Joanne Lockwood: polarise and create your brand as inclusive. Your
Joanne Lockwood: brand is this. That way you, you attract the people. And
Joanne Lockwood: I. Was it Dylan Mulvaney and was it Bud Light and people like
Joanne Lockwood: that? Oh, right, there's all this campaign and these other,
Joanne Lockwood: the bra manufacturers that engaged Dylan Mulvaney as well. And, and all
Joanne Lockwood: this kind of all this shock horror about, oh, you can't do that. And
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly Budweiser sales went down and everyone's going, oh, look,
Joanne Lockwood: this is what happens if you support these woke causes. And it's like, these
Joanne Lockwood: headlines aren't true. You know, this, this is, it's just
Joanne Lockwood: myths. Exactly how they handled it so poorly that led to that
Julie Kratz: decline. That was the problem. Yeah. Nothing to do with Dylan. Had everything
Julie Kratz: to do with the poor management of it. Like, if they should have held the
Joanne Lockwood: rope, they should have stood. Stood their ground and should have said, we're positive about
Joanne Lockwood: this. Yeah. So what if you lose a few customers? Are those
Julie Kratz: customers you want? They can stay. They probably lost the customers because they threw
Joanne Lockwood: people under the bus. They, they, they banktracked. If they just stayed states,
Joanne Lockwood: everybody yeah, right. Yeah. So I think,
Julie Kratz: I think that's a great example and I also think some great case studies that
Julie Kratz: have come up as of late, again, more here in the States, but
Julie Kratz: globally, like Costco is one of our like warehouse brands, if you're
Julie Kratz: familiar with that. Joanne? Yeah, yeah, we have Costco over here.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Okay, cool. No one's perfect, but they're pretty.
Julie Kratz: Inclusion is like a part of their strategy. And I was, it was so interesting.
Julie Kratz: I was reading a New York Times article on them in like mid
Julie Kratz: December about how they, they're all about
Julie Kratz: developing their talent from within. So you start as an hourly worker
Julie Kratz: and they pay a very competitive wage and the 20 something dollars, which is a
Julie Kratz: very good wage here for hourly workers. And then
Julie Kratz: they self promote through and they treat their people really well and
Julie Kratz: they have an intentional strategy around inclusion and diversity and their
Julie Kratz: hiring and promotion processes. Great. Nothing controversial.
Julie Kratz: There's. Well then their shareholders come up with
Julie Kratz: like, I don't want any more of this DEI hiring, which I don't even know
Julie Kratz: what DEI hiring is to be. I'm not familiar. I don't know what it is
Joanne Lockwood: either. No. So like setting goals. I don't know,
Julie Kratz: debiasing the process, like. Anyway, you're for a fair
Joanne Lockwood: chance, apparently. Warner unanimously said, no, thank you.
Julie Kratz: We will be moving forward as planned. This is a part of our strategy and
Julie Kratz: who we are. It's aligned with our mission, our vision and our values, full
Julie Kratz: stop. American Airlines just did the same thing.
Julie Kratz: So suddenly we start to see the tides
Julie Kratz: changing. Not to use like a metaphor, but like something's
Julie Kratz: shifting and is it coincidental that it's happening at the same time
Julie Kratz: in our political environment? Shifting. So,
Julie Kratz: you know, to kind of full circle on the silver lining
Julie Kratz: we were talking about at the beginning. I think, I think
Julie Kratz: dei, if I had a
Julie Kratz: crystal ball and some predictions, you're probably not going to call it
Julie Kratz: DEI anymore, especially here where it might be
Julie Kratz: illegal. I think you already pushed through an executive order. Not that you can't
Julie Kratz: do DEI training if you work with the government. So, okay,
Julie Kratz: we don't call it DEI anymore. It does not change the work.
Julie Kratz: And as practitioners, I think we really need.
Julie Kratz: I'm urging my clients and other practitioners, let's not
Julie Kratz: be so worried about the words we use. We've only been calling a DEI for
Julie Kratz: like the last five years. Is it that big of a deal to shift to
Julie Kratz: a. What does it really mean? As, as you said just now, what is diversity?
Julie Kratz: It's, it's a fact. You can't train People on diversity. It's just
Julie Kratz: happening. It's just a fact. It is, it just is. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. Inclusion, you can train people on. And I,
Julie Kratz: if I were to really think about what I do for a living, that's what
Julie Kratz: I do, is inclusive, train inclusive, more
Julie Kratz: leadership training. But inclusion training, culture, work,
Julie Kratz: belongingness, well. Being, psychological safety, all this kind
Joanne Lockwood: of stuff. Yeah, you're really never doing the E. And I know the E is
Julie Kratz: really important and the systems have to change along with individual behaviour. But let's be
Julie Kratz: honest, companies aren't doing a crappy job at equity.
Julie Kratz: We can't even get pay equity. So. No,
Joanne Lockwood: that's a lot is recognising someone who's
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiverse, autistic, has a disability, needs a little
Joanne Lockwood: bit extra help. And we do that for our kids in college and schools. This
Joanne Lockwood: person's got dyslexia. We need to give them special dispensation in exams or
Joanne Lockwood: give them something to help with screen readers, whatever. Our phones, our laptops, our
Joanne Lockwood: computers have little red squiggly lines under spelling mistakes now and they
Joanne Lockwood: can read stuff out. So equity is being built into our
Joanne Lockwood: infrastructure anyway, so we're a lot more equitable
Joanne Lockwood: in the systems we have. And that's what we're doing is making sure that
Joanne Lockwood: people can access fairly. That's equity. Not giving people
Joanne Lockwood: any special rights. It's just floating the
Joanne Lockwood: boats, I think. Where we lose people. And
Julie Kratz: let's be honest, I mean, we know this, there's research on this. This is
Julie Kratz: a fact that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support
Julie Kratz: inclusion, at least in our country. So there's an education
Julie Kratz: gap. And when you use acronyms
Julie Kratz: and you use words like equity that people don't understand,
Julie Kratz: just it's not an obvious word word we use
Julie Kratz: very often when you use words that people don't understand in
Julie Kratz: acronyms, it creates fear. You're talking down to me, making me
Julie Kratz: feel like I don't know something and that's not a good starting
Julie Kratz: place. So ditching acronyms,
Julie Kratz: focusing on inclusion, I'm okay with it. Honestly,
Julie Kratz: Absolutely. Please don't mishear me on this. Like, it does not change the work I
Julie Kratz: do at all. But if the label, the packaging
Julie Kratz: needs to shift to make it more palatable and acceptable for folks and
Julie Kratz: legal, like country. Okay, let's just
Julie Kratz: do it and get it over with. I'm sick of talking about. I'm not a
Joanne Lockwood: fan of D I, D and I D I B D I J, whatever
Joanne Lockwood: acronym you like, because it's all about buzzwords and
Joanne Lockwood: input. I want to talk about the outcomes. What do we look? What's the outcome
Joanne Lockwood: we're trying to achieve fairness, a respect environments where people can
Joanne Lockwood: thrive, people feel safe, they got trust in the process.
Joanne Lockwood: They feel if they work hard and try hard and do the right things, they're
Joanne Lockwood: going to succeed. It's not overcoming this bullshit BS of
Joanne Lockwood: meritocracy and this belief that the dice and the bases are loaded. We got
Joanne Lockwood: to. That's where equity comes in, where we're offsetting privilege
Joanne Lockwood: and natural fairness. That's, that's a synonym to equity. I mean
Julie Kratz: there's more to equity, but fairness is a quintessential part of
Julie Kratz: equity. It's interesting that you brought that up, Joanne, because
Julie Kratz: there's a thought leader, probably the most prolific thought leader
Julie Kratz: I follow in the DE currently as we call it the DEI space. Lily
Julie Kratz: Zhang. Yeah, follow them
Julie Kratz: as well. They just posted about
Julie Kratz: their new book and it appears to be a fairness
Julie Kratz: title. So I was really intrigued by that because for two
Julie Kratz: reasons. One, personally I went through psychological safety
Julie Kratz: certification a year ago and they make you do
Julie Kratz: this values assessment. I don't make you, but you have to as part of the
Julie Kratz: certification. And off the charts, I am like off the
Julie Kratz: charts with fairness. Like fairness is something. If it is not
Julie Kratz: fair, I don't feel psychologically safe.
Julie Kratz: Wife didn't survive in corporate America. Right. Like makes sense
Julie Kratz: but they're underlying. Most humans are
Julie Kratz: wired for fairness. You give a kid, two kids, different slices of
Julie Kratz: pie, they're like, that's not fair. I didn't get the same amount. We
Julie Kratz: are wired to appreciate fairness
Julie Kratz: and to want to share and things to be fair. So what if we
Julie Kratz: pivoted to fairness? Come at me. Just like inclusion. What you want
Julie Kratz: exclusion, Come at me. I will defend that all day long.
Julie Kratz: The tricky spot I'm in with dei, it's a little harder to, it's much harder
Julie Kratz: to defend, to be honest because I have to first explain to you what it
Julie Kratz: means, which that's a huge problem. So now I have to explain to you what
Julie Kratz: it means. So now I've made you feel like you, I know something you don't
Julie Kratz: know and I'm somehow better than you because I know that, which
Julie Kratz: is not the way we want to approach this. And then you have to
Julie Kratz: get people to understand how to do it. This multi step
Julie Kratz: process, if we just said fairness, inclusion,
Julie Kratz: it really shortcuts all of that. And like either you want things that are fair
Julie Kratz: and inclusive or you don't. If you don't I can't help you.
Julie Kratz: Problem solved. I just want to believe that I can
Joanne Lockwood: succeed on my own merit. That's what I want to know. And
Joanne Lockwood: if I need some help, I can ask for it and I'll be given it.
Joanne Lockwood: That's, that's, that's what it's all about, really. And if I don't need the help,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't get upset because somebody else gets the help. That's, that's really what we're
Joanne Lockwood: trying to do here. And whether that's in the hiring process, the
Joanne Lockwood: employee experience, stakeholder, the customer, whatever, wherever you
Joanne Lockwood: are in the system and the queue, you just want to, you don't want to
Joanne Lockwood: have trust. Trust and fairness, it's gotta be there.
Joanne Lockwood: You can say you're fair, but if I don't trust your fairness. So it's
Joanne Lockwood: building trust. And that's about brand, it's about values. So all those good things
Joanne Lockwood: about that alignment, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I appreciate they use the
Julie Kratz: word help. Really interesting. This is
Julie Kratz: probably more of an American thing. We don't like to ask
Julie Kratz: for help. That's being weak. Right. But what's interesting
Julie Kratz: about human beings as a whole is we're a social
Julie Kratz: species. We don't survive on our own. We would have never gotten to this point
Julie Kratz: of evolution if we didn't have each other in groups or tribes or whatever you
Julie Kratz: want to call them. Only the last 10% of our human history have
Julie Kratz: we not been hunting and gathering. Right. So it's is this whole
Julie Kratz: idea of, like, we had to one, to survive, prove
Julie Kratz: that we were helpful to the group so the group would want to keep us,
Julie Kratz: so we stayed safe, and we had to be willing to accept help from others
Julie Kratz: so other people could feel helpful. This is a deeply primal human
Julie Kratz: need. That's what allyship is all
Julie Kratz: about, is being helpful. The research on it
Julie Kratz: shows just like mentorship, it's not the mentee that really
Julie Kratz: benefits, it's the mentor. It's the ally that
Julie Kratz: benefits, not the person that's being allied. Of course they benefit by, you know,
Julie Kratz: disrupting barriers or making introductions or whatever you're doing.
Julie Kratz: But the act of helping someone and feeling helpful is
Julie Kratz: deeply fulfilling. And so if we created
Julie Kratz: conditions where people could ask for help and people could
Julie Kratz: provide help, we would all be better. But we have all
Julie Kratz: these, like, weird barriers around it, like these
Julie Kratz: psychological triggers around it.
Julie Kratz: And I'll be honest with you, as someone that teaches allyship,
Julie Kratz: we usually teach what we don't, what we need, ourselves. I hate
Julie Kratz: asking for help. I Hate it. It's
Julie Kratz: very vulnerable. And so it's just an interesting space that we're in. We have
Julie Kratz: to, like you said, be willing to ask for help and accept it. Something I
Joanne Lockwood: learned, you know, I. I gender transitioned effectively 8, 9, 10 years
Joanne Lockwood: ago, and I spent most of my life being invincible.
Joanne Lockwood: Being privileged, not feeling I needed as a man.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Not feeling I needed anything as a white man, as a perceived straight
Joanne Lockwood: white man. And what I learned very quickly as
Joanne Lockwood: a woman is that I am inherently more
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerable. As a trans woman, I'm even more vulnerable. And
Joanne Lockwood: so I decided to rather reject that. I lent into
Joanne Lockwood: it and I embraced that vulnerability and I
Joanne Lockwood: thought I'm more. I'm more open to share about what.
Julie Kratz: What. What makes me happy, what makes me sad when I'm feeling
Joanne Lockwood: worried. I'm more willing to reach out to people now
Joanne Lockwood: than I ever was before because
Joanne Lockwood: I haven't been. Having spent most of my life
Joanne Lockwood: invincible, now I'm not. I realise
Joanne Lockwood: actually I need help. I don't have that huge network of
Joanne Lockwood: protection anymore. So I have to ask people and lean
Joanne Lockwood: into people when it's there. Especially when you're in a place that's not
Julie Kratz: safe for you. Like, you need allies around you,
Julie Kratz: not that you don't. I think without trying to play
Joanne Lockwood: a stereotype here, I think that women are inherently more
Joanne Lockwood: collaborative than men. That's.
Joanne Lockwood: I've really embraced that side of it, where certainly in
Joanne Lockwood: DEI or diversity work, or the work we're both in,
Joanne Lockwood: it's not a competitive sport. We all want everybody to win and succeed.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's an inherently more collaborative network of people I'm part of.
Joanne Lockwood: So the collaboration, the helping, the working on each other
Joanne Lockwood: resonated with that more. So I'm more willing to, as I say,
Joanne Lockwood: open myself up, be vulnerable and ask for help than I ever have been in
Joanne Lockwood: my past life. That's really. It's a really interesting
Julie Kratz: window, right, that you can see
Julie Kratz: this. Different sides of gender expression and identity
Julie Kratz: and how that manifests and how people treat you differently. And
Julie Kratz: there is a piece of collaboration. I mean, I think when you're not in
Julie Kratz: power, you know, you have to collaborate. You know, you can't get things
Julie Kratz: the same way you could if you have the power. And so historically,
Julie Kratz: marginalised groups just learn to pair up and
Julie Kratz: collaborate. And that's funny. I was just reflecting on this with my peer group
Julie Kratz: this morning is being a woman. I'm so
Julie Kratz: thankful I was born a woman, I really am. And I don't mean
Julie Kratz: that, that I don't like men. I just personally love
Julie Kratz: collaborating and I love talking about my emotions and having
Julie Kratz: deep relationships without the scoffing of I'm whatever.
Julie Kratz: I am so thankful, so thankful for that. I hear
Joanne Lockwood: you, I hear you. I've discovered this, I've discovered this.
Joanne Lockwood: This, this is the authentic person inside me reaching out
Joanne Lockwood: and going, where's this been all my life? This is just my natural
Joanne Lockwood: way of being. It was never there before. It was just didn't see it. It
Joanne Lockwood: was all masks by the, the hormones, the testosterone and everything else that
Joanne Lockwood: was masking it up with maleness, if you like, covering all this
Joanne Lockwood: inner self that screaming to get out. Really.
Julie Kratz: Yeah. What an interesting perspective. When I think about
Julie Kratz: the most marginalised people and not that this is a
Julie Kratz: competition, but when you think about trans
Julie Kratz: people, just the rates of violence, the rates of oppression, the
Julie Kratz: rates of hate, it's extremely high for the trans
Julie Kratz: community and I really feel such deep empathy.
Julie Kratz: I also understand the fear that straight cisgender people
Julie Kratz: have about it because they don't understand it. And you and I were talking in
Julie Kratz: the green room about this. You're like, I don't understand it either. You don't have
Julie Kratz: to understand it fully to be supportive.
Julie Kratz: Lean in. It's okay as, as we were saying, as I said before,
Joanne Lockwood: just to contextualise it for people listening, it's. I don't
Joanne Lockwood: understand what it's like to be trans masculine. I don't understand what it's like to
Joanne Lockwood: be non binary. I don't understand, but I understand. In fact, I don't even understand
Joanne Lockwood: me why or how or what it is. I just know that who
Joanne Lockwood: I am makes sense to me and I can't explain it to you or anybody
Joanne Lockwood: else other than. It's like, it's like trying to imagine a four
Joanne Lockwood: dimensional object in three dimensional space. I
Joanne Lockwood: can't explain that fourth dimension, but I can explain the shadow. I can
Joanne Lockwood: explain how it is likely to manifest itself,
Joanne Lockwood: but not actually draw a picture of it. And it's, it's
Joanne Lockwood: that really, it's trying to explain something, a point of reference that
Joanne Lockwood: I don't have other than I am. And it's a
Joanne Lockwood: strange, it's a strange thing. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just like a human
Julie Kratz: condition to want to know why, like how did that happen? I mean, kids do
Julie Kratz: this. I learned so much from my kids about curiosity and the
Julie Kratz: thing about really all the dimensions of difference that you don't have a lived
Julie Kratz: experience or a personal identity connecting to. You don't have to fully understand it.
Julie Kratz: You're not going to. Right. Like, it's not your lived experience. So how. I can't
Julie Kratz: walk around in brown or black skin to understand how racism really
Julie Kratz: manifests. You can see it from my whiteness and know that it's wrong.
Julie Kratz: And that's, that's enough. That's. That's okay.
Julie Kratz: Pay attention. The one piece of advice I always give people that want to be
Julie Kratz: better allies is just keep your radar up. Pay attention. Like, look
Julie Kratz: for unfairness, look for injustice and say something when you see
Julie Kratz: it. And it doesn't have to be this bold proclamation of you're a racist or
Julie Kratz: a sexist. Say, hey, what you mean you said that? Like, I
Julie Kratz: don't understand why that's funny. Or hey, have you ever thought about it this
Julie Kratz: way? Or I used to think that too. Like, there's really
Julie Kratz: easy ways to call people in without shame and
Julie Kratz: blame. So just for anyone listening, calling it in is. Calling it out is very
Joanne Lockwood: much a big hands in the air, stop, shout, do not do that
Joanne Lockwood: shaming. Almost calling it out. Calling it in is. It's the
Joanne Lockwood: education side. It's the, the persuasiveness. It's the explaining
Joanne Lockwood: a better way. And people get defensive if they
Joanne Lockwood: called out because they feel shame, they feel confusion where we call in,
Joanne Lockwood: we invite people into the conversation and it's more productive.
Julie Kratz: Yep. Yeah. And a great thought leader in that space is Loretta Ross.
Julie Kratz: She has a TED Talk and a new book out on calling in comes out
Julie Kratz: in February. Listeners. So I'm, I'm excited about that. But major
Julie Kratz: difference and I think another course correction that's desperately needed in our
Julie Kratz: work. Yeah, I agree. Too many activists
Joanne Lockwood: getting angry and not enough people sitting around the table on the centre ground enlightening
Joanne Lockwood: and having productive conversations like we're having today, which is
Joanne Lockwood: fantastic. Julie. We've been yakking on now for nearly an
Joanne Lockwood: hour and a half. We burnt some of our allocated time up in the green
Joanne Lockwood: room before we started recording, which is a lesson to learn for next time. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's absolutely fascinating. How do people get hold of you for you? You've got some
Joanne Lockwood: inspiration here. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for such a delightful,
Julie Kratz: refreshing conversation. This was really. I'm excited to share this one. So I
Julie Kratz: have a Forbes column I post a couple times a week if you're interested, have
Julie Kratz: ideas, people I should interview. Always happy to take suggestions there. I
Julie Kratz: love Hot Topics, so cheque me out on Forbes. You know Forbes and Julie Kratz
Julie Kratz: K-R-A-T-Z. You can find me easily and
Julie Kratz: nextpivotpoint.com so
Julie Kratz: nextpivotpoint.com tonnes of free resources. We
Julie Kratz: way too much content there. So dig in. You
Julie Kratz: can contact me through the website. Has all the info there. That's
Joanne Lockwood: it. And well, I'll be making a pitch to be on your podcast and we
Joanne Lockwood: can have have another conversation and you're invited. Already
Julie Kratz: invited. We'll just find the time. Can't wait. Can't wait. So thank
Joanne Lockwood: you so much and it's been an absolute pleasure and
Joanne Lockwood: I'm almost sad that the conversation's ending, but you have to rush to another
Joanne Lockwood: meeting. So, yeah, let's call it quits. Thank you, Julie. Part 2 Part
Julie Kratz: 2 Be Continued Listeners. As we bring
Joanne Lockwood: this conversation to a close, I want to express my
Joanne Lockwood: deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your
Joanne Lockwood: ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
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Joanne Lockwood: community driving real change. Share this journey with
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Joanne Lockwood: that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a
Joanne Lockwood: vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time,
Joanne Lockwood: this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge,
Joanne Lockwood: inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.