WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.240 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.919 conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:11.620 this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, 4 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:15.485 and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to 5 00:00:15.485 --> 00:00:19.185 create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? 6 00:00:19.244 --> 00:00:22.544 You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 7 00:00:22.765 --> 00:00:26.305 challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate 8 00:00:26.445 --> 00:00:30.070 the within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee 9 00:00:30.290 --> 00:00:33.970 or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and 10 00:00:33.970 --> 00:00:37.330 inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the 11 00:00:37.330 --> 00:00:39.489 conversation, too. Reach out to 12 00:00:39.489 --> 00:00:42.555 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 13 00:00:43.335 --> 00:00:47.015 to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your 14 00:00:47.015 --> 00:00:50.855 earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark 15 00:00:50.855 --> 00:00:53.275 of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 16 00:00:55.989 --> 00:00:58.570 And today is episode 152 17 00:00:59.989 --> 00:01:03.750 with the title, embracing every mind. And I have 18 00:01:03.750 --> 00:01:06.890 the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Charlie Hart. 19 00:01:07.315 --> 00:01:10.995 Charlie, also known as awesome Charlie, and you'll find out in a minute 20 00:01:10.995 --> 00:01:14.215 why, is a neurodivergent keynote speaker championing 21 00:01:14.835 --> 00:01:18.675 neurodiversity and LGBTQIA plus inclusion in the 22 00:01:18.675 --> 00:01:22.150 workplace. And when I asked Charlie to describe their superpower, they 23 00:01:22.150 --> 00:01:25.830 said, it's just their unwavering dedication to creating a better 24 00:01:25.830 --> 00:01:29.670 world for neurodivergent and queer youth inspired by their own 25 00:01:29.670 --> 00:01:33.225 children and the Gen z community. Hi, 26 00:01:33.225 --> 00:01:36.664 Charley. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thanks so much for having 27 00:01:36.664 --> 00:01:40.424 me. Yeah. We've talked about this for a couple of months, and it's I'm 28 00:01:40.424 --> 00:01:44.265 really honored you've come on today. I'm really excited to be here 29 00:01:44.265 --> 00:01:48.080 because I've been following your work on LinkedIn for quite a long time 30 00:01:48.080 --> 00:01:51.860 now. And then we met through the professional speaking association, 31 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.240 and I'm really keen to get on this fabulous podcast, 32 00:01:56.240 --> 00:02:00.015 which I quite often listen to when I'm on a long walk. Oh, thank 33 00:02:00.015 --> 00:02:03.315 you. And this you have the honor of being the first 34 00:02:03.455 --> 00:02:07.295 video version of this podcast. I mean, yes, it'll be published in audio 35 00:02:07.295 --> 00:02:10.574 only as well on Spotify, iTunes, and the user places, but it's gonna be the 36 00:02:10.574 --> 00:02:14.220 first one we actually recorded the video as well. So, yeah, I'm excited by that 37 00:02:14.220 --> 00:02:17.819 as well. So it's gonna be brilliant. Me too. Yeah. So, 38 00:02:17.819 --> 00:02:21.579 Charlie, we talked about in the opening there about 39 00:02:21.579 --> 00:02:25.260 your work championing neurodiversity through your own 40 00:02:25.260 --> 00:02:29.035 experience and also out of your children and the Gen Z community 41 00:02:29.035 --> 00:02:32.555 at large. What took you from where you were to 42 00:02:32.555 --> 00:02:35.295 deciding this was your your passion, your calling? 43 00:02:36.475 --> 00:02:40.155 So it's quite a long story as you can imagine, but my 44 00:02:40.155 --> 00:02:43.519 background is HR, and I fell into that quite by 45 00:02:43.519 --> 00:02:47.040 chance. Analytical and project 46 00:02:47.040 --> 00:02:50.180 management side of HR and supporting the HR system, 47 00:02:50.799 --> 00:02:54.645 but I've tried to progress, and I ran into 48 00:02:54.645 --> 00:02:58.025 difficulties with meeting behaviors. I was frequently overwhelmed, 49 00:02:58.725 --> 00:03:02.325 quite often getting burnout that looked like depression, and I 50 00:03:02.325 --> 00:03:06.165 just wasn't getting promoted through the ranks like my peers that 51 00:03:06.165 --> 00:03:09.785 started at the same time were. Eventually, I eventually, I realized 52 00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:13.260 that my child, Iggy, my first born, was 53 00:03:13.260 --> 00:03:17.099 autistic, and that so was I. Everything that he 54 00:03:17.099 --> 00:03:20.720 learned about his neurotype and the reasons that he struggled 55 00:03:21.019 --> 00:03:24.195 with anxiety and getting overwhelmed and having 56 00:03:24.735 --> 00:03:28.415 what was actually autistic meltdowns, but he he 57 00:03:28.415 --> 00:03:32.035 thought were anxiety attacks. Everything that he realized, 58 00:03:32.095 --> 00:03:35.455 I realized was true about me as well. So in 59 00:03:35.455 --> 00:03:38.519 2018, I went through the autism 60 00:03:38.819 --> 00:03:42.439 diagnosis, and I discovered the neurodiversity 61 00:03:42.819 --> 00:03:46.599 community online. So that to me, it really 62 00:03:46.659 --> 00:03:50.099 sparked my interest. After 15 years of 63 00:03:50.099 --> 00:03:53.585 feeling like I was somehow broken, there was something 64 00:03:53.585 --> 00:03:57.345 wrong with me. There were I realized that there was 65 00:03:57.345 --> 00:04:01.105 a concrete reason why I struggled with things that my peers 66 00:04:01.105 --> 00:04:04.785 took for granted, and there were concrete reasons that I 67 00:04:04.785 --> 00:04:08.260 was losing my call and even tipping into burnout. 68 00:04:09.040 --> 00:04:12.500 And it explains so much about me. And then I discovered 69 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:16.240 that actually neurodiversity is a thing. There are 70 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.700 differences between each and every human brain and mind. 71 00:04:20.204 --> 00:04:24.044 We all process the world and its inputs. We 72 00:04:24.044 --> 00:04:27.264 all think, feel, and respond to things uniquely. 73 00:04:27.885 --> 00:04:31.645 And that doesn't mean that some people are broken and that some are 74 00:04:31.645 --> 00:04:35.280 good. It doesn't mean that some brains are correct and 75 00:04:35.280 --> 00:04:38.960 others are wrong. It's a natural part of human 76 00:04:38.960 --> 00:04:42.580 diversity, and it's advantageous. So like biodiversity 77 00:04:43.280 --> 00:04:46.235 in nature, neurological diversity 78 00:04:46.935 --> 00:04:50.455 in a human population, such as a workforce, is 79 00:04:50.455 --> 00:04:53.995 advantageous. This really sparked my curiosity. 80 00:04:54.455 --> 00:04:58.055 And then I found out I have complex PTSD as well, 81 00:04:58.055 --> 00:05:01.470 which a lot of neurodivergent people have who are late diagnosed 82 00:05:02.010 --> 00:05:05.370 and have gone through society and work not 83 00:05:05.370 --> 00:05:09.050 understanding how to support their own needs. And 84 00:05:09.050 --> 00:05:12.270 I also have ADHD, so I'm multiply neurodivergent. 85 00:05:13.125 --> 00:05:16.885 And yeah. So it's all I wanna talk about and write about 86 00:05:16.885 --> 00:05:20.485 now. Yeah. So I quit my HR job 18 months 87 00:05:20.485 --> 00:05:23.785 ago, and now I full time research, 88 00:05:24.165 --> 00:05:27.669 think, speak, write, create 89 00:05:27.669 --> 00:05:31.289 content about neurodiversity, inclusion, and acceptance, 90 00:05:31.430 --> 00:05:35.270 and I'm loving it. You you mentioned there that, you know, we all 91 00:05:35.270 --> 00:05:38.229 have our own unique minds. We all see the world through our own lens. And 92 00:05:38.229 --> 00:05:41.925 the way we we the way we think and act and feel. I've always 93 00:05:41.925 --> 00:05:45.764 wondered when the human species evolved a 94 00:05:45.764 --> 00:05:49.384 100000, 200000 years ago, however, we came from our prehistoric 95 00:05:49.685 --> 00:05:53.284 primitive backgrounds. Who decided that we needed to 96 00:05:53.284 --> 00:05:56.724 think in a specific way? So it's it's almost like the 21st century, the 97 00:05:56.724 --> 00:06:00.539 20, yeah, 2025 where we are now that said, this 98 00:06:00.539 --> 00:06:03.979 is what we value, these calm, cool, collected, 99 00:06:03.979 --> 00:06:07.500 logical people. Yes. Our history must have 100 00:06:07.500 --> 00:06:11.195 been we needed people who had attention to detail. We needed people who were 101 00:06:11.195 --> 00:06:14.415 creative. We needed people who could get on with stuff, people who are 102 00:06:14.715 --> 00:06:18.555 did all these different things. So neurodivergent really is is part 103 00:06:18.555 --> 00:06:22.335 of our historic makeup, and we've just decided that this part is more valuable 104 00:06:22.635 --> 00:06:25.670 than this part. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, 105 00:06:26.550 --> 00:06:29.850 this neuronormativity, this expectation 106 00:06:30.230 --> 00:06:33.750 that we should think and respond to things in a 107 00:06:33.750 --> 00:06:37.585 certain way, it is a social construct, 108 00:06:37.645 --> 00:06:41.485 really, like gender. So I'm drawing parallels here. If you think 109 00:06:41.485 --> 00:06:45.085 back to caveman times, for example, it was super 110 00:06:45.085 --> 00:06:48.845 important that some members of the population brought up 111 00:06:48.845 --> 00:06:52.650 children and the others were hunter gatherers, but that doesn't 112 00:06:52.650 --> 00:06:56.490 need to be attached to gender. It's really about finding out what an 113 00:06:56.490 --> 00:06:59.790 individual's strengths are and and what their 114 00:07:00.010 --> 00:07:03.710 support needs are. So some people will be super good at some things 115 00:07:04.250 --> 00:07:07.815 and will struggle with others. And we can work 116 00:07:07.815 --> 00:07:11.655 together and collaborate and be greater than the sum of our parts. 117 00:07:11.655 --> 00:07:15.335 Yeah. We certainly didn't have toilets with signs on them a 100000 years ago, did 118 00:07:15.335 --> 00:07:18.775 we, in in the forest and caves? We were Yeah. Wiping our bottoms on the 119 00:07:18.775 --> 00:07:22.430 nearest leaf probably or in the stream. Absolutely. 120 00:07:22.730 --> 00:07:26.090 So it's it's just another social construct. 121 00:07:26.090 --> 00:07:28.990 And one thing that a lot of people 122 00:07:29.850 --> 00:07:33.690 may not understand as well, even if they know a little bit about neurodiversity and 123 00:07:33.690 --> 00:07:37.245 neurodivergence, is that neurotypical 124 00:07:37.944 --> 00:07:41.465 or normal, that's a construct of 125 00:07:41.465 --> 00:07:45.085 the dominant culture that you're operating in. 126 00:07:45.145 --> 00:07:48.925 It will be completely different between different countries. And 127 00:07:50.425 --> 00:07:54.080 a lot of neurodiversity advocates are only seeing things through, 128 00:07:54.400 --> 00:07:58.160 a northern hemisphere white western lens, but 129 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:02.000 it's far greater than that. Yeah. You mentioned also that, you know, you were late 130 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.785 diagnosed and that that's as yeah. We bring gender into this. That 131 00:08:05.785 --> 00:08:09.405 was it's a gender thing because because people who are assigned male at birth 132 00:08:10.025 --> 00:08:13.545 exhibit autistic ADHD neurodiversity in 133 00:08:13.545 --> 00:08:17.360 different ways than people assigned female at birth, don't they? They can do. 134 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.800 Yeah. I mean, I'm not gender conforming anyway, so I 135 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.400 partially reject that. And, also, when you look through my school 136 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:28.160 reports, they are full of evidence of ADHD. It's full of 137 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.825 stuff like, she's a really bright girl and could 138 00:08:31.825 --> 00:08:35.664 really excel if she would only fulfill her potential instead 139 00:08:35.664 --> 00:08:39.105 of allowing herself to be distracted by her 140 00:08:39.105 --> 00:08:42.785 intense hobbies and interests, things like that. And if it was a boy, it would 141 00:08:42.785 --> 00:08:45.800 have been picked up. So it isn't that my behavior was different. 142 00:08:46.420 --> 00:08:49.860 It's I think it's more that the diagnostic criteria are 143 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:53.300 actually based around unruly, disruptive little 144 00:08:53.300 --> 00:08:56.985 boys. So they don't see the 145 00:08:57.225 --> 00:09:00.605 they don't see ADHD if it's less evident externally. 146 00:09:01.385 --> 00:09:03.885 They think it's about running around being hyperactive. 147 00:09:05.385 --> 00:09:09.005 Girls are more socially conditioned, I think, not to be disruptive 148 00:09:09.144 --> 00:09:12.930 at school and to sit still if they're expected to and to not 149 00:09:12.930 --> 00:09:16.209 heckle the teacher, although I always did. So it's just, 150 00:09:17.730 --> 00:09:21.490 there are massive preconceptions about what's actually going on. 151 00:09:21.490 --> 00:09:25.334 If the person appears to behave be behaving, they're not too 152 00:09:25.334 --> 00:09:28.935 much trouble to the teacher. Nobody takes the trouble to work out 153 00:09:28.935 --> 00:09:32.235 what's going on inside of their minds. If they're running 154 00:09:32.375 --> 00:09:35.274 20 tabs and 10 of them are 155 00:09:35.735 --> 00:09:39.560 frozen, we don't know where the music's coming from, and we can't stop 156 00:09:39.560 --> 00:09:43.240 it. Nobody sees that unless they ask us. They'll ask our teachers 157 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:46.920 whether we're disruptive. They'll ask might ask our parents how we are at 158 00:09:46.920 --> 00:09:50.680 home. But if you're a child and you're experiencing the world in 159 00:09:50.680 --> 00:09:54.505 that chronically overwhelming way, nobody seems to really want to 160 00:09:54.505 --> 00:09:58.185 know about it. Are you aware of what what age were you? Because I 161 00:09:58.185 --> 00:10:02.025 appreciate ADHD traits and 162 00:10:02.025 --> 00:10:05.705 the autistic traits are different. Yes. And they exhibit themselves differently. 163 00:10:05.705 --> 00:10:09.490 And I I I know I've spoken to many parents of autistic children, and 164 00:10:09.490 --> 00:10:13.089 they're very aware from the early, very early ages of their child in terms of 165 00:10:13.089 --> 00:10:16.930 developmental differences, learn to speak and read and vocabulary and things 166 00:10:16.930 --> 00:10:20.069 like that. They're very hyper aware of the the autistic traits. 167 00:10:20.825 --> 00:10:24.445 When did you become really aware of your your bouncy 168 00:10:24.505 --> 00:10:27.325 tigger traits? You know, your ADHD, your your your 169 00:10:28.745 --> 00:10:32.585 the way your brain was white. Yeah. I think it's when I started 170 00:10:32.585 --> 00:10:35.939 to really need as an adult to get 171 00:10:35.939 --> 00:10:38.920 outside in the countryside and run or walk. 172 00:10:40.019 --> 00:10:43.860 Otherwise, I wasn't okay. It's at that point that I realized 173 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:47.620 that I've got a hyperactivity that nobody else had had 174 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:51.255 picked up on. And then the inattentive 175 00:10:51.394 --> 00:10:54.935 side of my ADHD, I realized I have that when 176 00:10:55.154 --> 00:10:58.995 I tried to repeat my HR professional qualifications. So I 177 00:10:58.995 --> 00:11:02.610 completely flunked to university when I was 19. I was a total 178 00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:06.130 disaster. I fell so hard off the rails, but I did 179 00:11:06.130 --> 00:11:09.810 do my CIPD qualifications when I was in my early 180 00:11:09.810 --> 00:11:13.490 twenties. Moved back in with my mom, I did them. She was looking 181 00:11:13.490 --> 00:11:16.695 out for me. I had a steady job. Everything was okay, and I got them 182 00:11:16.695 --> 00:11:20.295 done. And then 20 years later, I thought I should probably do them 183 00:11:20.295 --> 00:11:24.055 again because they're 20 years old. They seem quite 184 00:11:24.055 --> 00:11:27.415 irrelevant. And I did that, and I was great. I, you know, I'm quite 185 00:11:27.415 --> 00:11:30.235 clever. I can focus and 186 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.120 but only if it's something I'm interested in. It's not that I don't 187 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:38.420 have any attention. It's that I've got a very 188 00:11:38.560 --> 00:11:42.260 interest based motivation system. So in 2021, 189 00:11:43.199 --> 00:11:46.615 I thought, great. We're working from home all year. 190 00:11:47.075 --> 00:11:50.595 Some people have returned to the office, but we were refurbishing ours. 191 00:11:50.595 --> 00:11:54.195 And I knew that I got time on my hands. I thought I will do 192 00:11:54.195 --> 00:11:57.650 my postgraduate diploma in HR management. And 193 00:11:57.650 --> 00:12:01.110 I absolutely flew through every subject that I was interested in 194 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:05.170 and really, really struggled with the ones that I wasn't. To the extent 195 00:12:05.170 --> 00:12:08.930 that it was right up against the deadline, and I was an absolute 196 00:12:08.930 --> 00:12:12.215 nightmare to live with. Just put things off and put things off and then snap 197 00:12:12.215 --> 00:12:16.055 to anyone that that interrupting me. But I I 198 00:12:16.055 --> 00:12:19.495 could tell I got ADHD then. My husband had just been through the 199 00:12:19.495 --> 00:12:22.855 diagnosis, so I knew what the questions were. And all the way along, I was 200 00:12:22.855 --> 00:12:26.420 thinking, yeah. Yeah. Me too. But then I 201 00:12:26.420 --> 00:12:30.259 actually got diagnosed this year at the age of 48. It's been there all 202 00:12:30.259 --> 00:12:34.019 along. I looked through my reports, and it's it's always been there. It's it's interesting 203 00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:37.459 because I love talking to people who who are a diverse ADHD 204 00:12:37.459 --> 00:12:41.055 because I'm trying to self diagnose myself and try to figure out if I have 205 00:12:41.055 --> 00:12:44.415 autistic or probably not autistic, but certainly ADHD. Because I I have 206 00:12:44.415 --> 00:12:48.095 hyperfocus. I went through a phase in my when I was 207 00:12:48.095 --> 00:12:51.695 probably about 14 years old, probably a bit of puberty kicked in, and I 208 00:12:51.695 --> 00:12:55.370 became completely unmanageable and still or 209 00:12:55.450 --> 00:12:59.210 sorry. Partially, completely so if you look at the left hand side of my report 210 00:12:59.210 --> 00:13:02.970 card, I was e. Look at the right answer on my report card, I 211 00:13:02.970 --> 00:13:06.330 was a. Yeah. There was no there's nothing in the middle. I was either full 212 00:13:06.330 --> 00:13:10.035 on or completely disinterested and troublesome. Yeah. As 213 00:13:10.035 --> 00:13:13.875 it's the science The ones you're interested in Yeah. Or 214 00:13:13.875 --> 00:13:17.555 the ones you were Hyper gifted. Engaged in those. Yeah. The sciences, the 215 00:13:17.555 --> 00:13:21.235 maths, the, yeah, the the history, the the 216 00:13:21.235 --> 00:13:24.970 geography, economics, all those kind of sort 217 00:13:24.970 --> 00:13:28.630 of more theoretical, you know, ethereal sort of things. 218 00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:32.209 Those were the kind of ones that I just was interested in. Yeah. And I 219 00:13:32.209 --> 00:13:35.510 was kicked out of class, and I was excuse 220 00:13:35.570 --> 00:13:38.975 me. I was told I was disruptive, and I I think I found 221 00:13:38.975 --> 00:13:42.415 that I I'm still there now. I'm either in or I'm out. If I'm in 222 00:13:42.575 --> 00:13:46.415 Yeah. I I'm both feet. I'm I'm dissolved. I'm I'm pulling 223 00:13:46.415 --> 00:13:49.855 it apart. I'm ripping it to shreds. I'm turning it inside out, bringing it back 224 00:13:49.855 --> 00:13:53.550 together, turning it inside out again. If there's anything else, I'm just gonna, like, 225 00:13:53.610 --> 00:13:57.310 I procrastinate until it doesn't matter anymore. Just get rid of it. 226 00:13:57.450 --> 00:14:00.810 So, yeah, I've learned that about myself. I I never I never seen that as 227 00:14:00.810 --> 00:14:04.650 a a superpower or weakness or anything like that. It's just part of who 228 00:14:04.650 --> 00:14:08.215 I've always been. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I 229 00:14:08.215 --> 00:14:11.675 don't really subscribe to the superpowers versus 230 00:14:11.975 --> 00:14:14.795 weaknesses kind of narrative because 231 00:14:15.815 --> 00:14:19.575 every human has strengths, and we all have things we find 232 00:14:19.575 --> 00:14:23.010 harder or that we need support with or that we just don't 233 00:14:23.010 --> 00:14:26.370 like. So every human's got their own ways of 234 00:14:26.370 --> 00:14:29.430 working where they can thrive and 235 00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:33.890 and things that they'd rather not be doing or that they need someone to help 236 00:14:33.890 --> 00:14:37.024 them through. The difference is when you're neurodivergent, 237 00:14:37.644 --> 00:14:41.404 it can mean that the things you're good at, you're particularly good at, 238 00:14:41.404 --> 00:14:45.165 and the things you that you struggle with, you're you particularly struggle with. 239 00:14:45.165 --> 00:14:48.990 So rather than being a good all rounder, you have what 240 00:14:48.990 --> 00:14:52.770 they call in the neurodiversity industry is a spiky profile. 241 00:14:53.470 --> 00:14:57.010 So my observation skills are right at the top of the chart, 242 00:14:57.630 --> 00:15:01.390 my meeting behaviors right on the bottom, that kind of thing. And and 243 00:15:01.390 --> 00:15:05.045 everyone has a profile that looks different, but particularly if 244 00:15:05.045 --> 00:15:08.825 you're autistic or ADHD, there will be things that you're shit hot at 245 00:15:09.445 --> 00:15:12.505 and things that you're constantly told you're not good enough at. 246 00:15:13.445 --> 00:15:16.825 Yeah. But it is from the dominant perspective, the dominant 247 00:15:16.885 --> 00:15:20.600 cultural perspective. Yeah. No. I get that. Because I also I mean, 248 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.280 you've met my wife, Marie. I I also recognize that there's elements of 249 00:15:24.280 --> 00:15:28.040 her personality, which should probably through 250 00:15:28.040 --> 00:15:31.825 menopause have probably become more exaggerated. So I know due to the her 251 00:15:31.825 --> 00:15:35.585 age, her her her hormone balance, other things where she's become much 252 00:15:35.585 --> 00:15:39.425 more I I describe as bouncy, bouncy, ticker sort of over various things. 253 00:15:39.425 --> 00:15:42.725 And but she also has a an inclination to 254 00:15:42.785 --> 00:15:46.560 be slightly manic and slightly reserved. So 255 00:15:46.560 --> 00:15:49.920 she goes through this you can tell this cycle about certain things, and it's she 256 00:15:49.920 --> 00:15:52.560 has to go into a hyperplanning mode, or she has to go into something else. 257 00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:56.320 So absorb it. Yeah. And it's different to me. And we we 258 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.055 we I think I've learned that how to be 259 00:16:00.055 --> 00:16:03.655 with her and absorb spikes and the and the troughs and 260 00:16:03.655 --> 00:16:06.615 everything else. And I guess my family have have adapted to me. But, yeah, it 261 00:16:06.695 --> 00:16:10.455 it's interesting talking to other people with their experiences. They're similar characteristics. It's 262 00:16:10.455 --> 00:16:13.880 different, aren't they? Dynamic, and me and my husband have the 263 00:16:13.880 --> 00:16:17.180 same. So we're both ADHD. 264 00:16:17.640 --> 00:16:21.100 That is we're both autistic and ADHD, 265 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:25.115 but he's been told that his autism 266 00:16:25.115 --> 00:16:28.655 isn't quite meeting the diagnostic threshold, which is 267 00:16:28.795 --> 00:16:32.635 arbitrary anyway. Let's face it. I'm not saying I 268 00:16:32.635 --> 00:16:36.475 would never say everyone's on the spectrum, but you can quite 269 00:16:36.475 --> 00:16:39.930 often notice ADHDers who have 270 00:16:39.930 --> 00:16:43.370 quite significant autistic traits, but wouldn't get through the 271 00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:47.210 diagnosis because the medical model wants 272 00:16:47.210 --> 00:16:50.750 us to draw the line somewhere. But he he's ADHD, 273 00:16:51.130 --> 00:16:54.970 and everyone that knows him knows that he's autistic as well, despite what 274 00:16:54.970 --> 00:16:58.644 the clinicians might say. And I'm autistic, 275 00:16:59.105 --> 00:17:02.005 and it was a bit of a battle for me to get my ADHD 276 00:17:02.464 --> 00:17:05.905 recognized by the medical profession, partly 277 00:17:05.905 --> 00:17:09.359 because it's very easy to think, well, 278 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.119 everything that she's talking about could be a combination of 279 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.700 autism and complex PTSD and menopause. 280 00:17:16.879 --> 00:17:20.414 But, yeah, I think it's you can't 281 00:17:20.414 --> 00:17:24.095 draw a neat line around the autistic part of my brain and 282 00:17:24.095 --> 00:17:27.934 the ADHD part. So there's no way of knowing if I 283 00:17:27.934 --> 00:17:31.774 spend 10 hours doing a particular piece of work that I'm really 284 00:17:31.774 --> 00:17:35.154 engrossed in. There's no way of knowing whether that's me 285 00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:39.220 leaning into that monotropic flow state that autistic people 286 00:17:39.220 --> 00:17:42.740 get, which is where we get our highly focused special 287 00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:46.500 interests that are in the diagnostic criteria. There's no way of knowing whether 288 00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.940 it's that or whether it's the ADHD hyper 289 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:53.525 focus. If somebody says something that makes 290 00:17:53.525 --> 00:17:57.285 me feel like crap and I have a meltdown, there's no way 291 00:17:57.285 --> 00:18:00.905 of knowing if that is an autistic meltdown or if it's an ADHD, 292 00:18:01.925 --> 00:18:05.629 emotional dysregulation thing, a rejection sensitive ADHD, emotional 293 00:18:05.629 --> 00:18:08.350 dysregulation thing, a rejection sensitive dysphoria reaction. I don't have 2 brains. It's just all 294 00:18:08.350 --> 00:18:12.029 ADHD. Yeah. When you look at it like that, 295 00:18:12.029 --> 00:18:15.730 I I don't know many people that I would say were just just autistic 296 00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:19.470 or just ADHD. It starts to feel like it's all 297 00:18:19.470 --> 00:18:23.135 one spectrum. I was speaking to a lady on on this 298 00:18:23.135 --> 00:18:26.575 show the other day, and she was saying that her child is 299 00:18:26.575 --> 00:18:30.035 autistic. She has an autistic child. And it manifests 300 00:18:30.095 --> 00:18:33.820 itself in her child as he is nonverbal. He 301 00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:37.580 also has a very limited vocabulary, which so that's how it manifests 302 00:18:37.580 --> 00:18:41.180 itself. So so that's how he is developing as a 303 00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:45.020 nonverbal autistic child. Yes. How would 304 00:18:45.020 --> 00:18:48.765 you describe your autistic because, you know, people listen to this show, hear the 305 00:18:48.765 --> 00:18:52.525 term autism, hear the term neurodiversity, hear the neurospicy, neurospicy, all these 306 00:18:52.525 --> 00:18:56.365 kind of buzzwords. What's different? Or where where where where is the 307 00:18:56.365 --> 00:19:00.205 sort of So I have the kind of 308 00:19:00.205 --> 00:19:03.529 autism which doesn't come with intellectual 309 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:07.370 disabilities, and it doesn't come with a a language development 310 00:19:07.429 --> 00:19:11.110 delay. That used to be called a Asperger's syndrome. They call 311 00:19:11.110 --> 00:19:14.250 it all autism spectrum disorder now. 312 00:19:14.895 --> 00:19:18.415 I don't identify as having a disorder, so I call 313 00:19:18.415 --> 00:19:22.175 myself autistic. I don't think I'm 314 00:19:22.175 --> 00:19:26.015 better or more valuable to society than people 315 00:19:26.015 --> 00:19:29.630 who are autistic and have intellectual disabilities. 316 00:19:30.090 --> 00:19:33.930 So I don't use terms like high functioning or low 317 00:19:33.930 --> 00:19:37.370 functioning either. So it's just 318 00:19:37.370 --> 00:19:40.845 autism. Yeah. It's labeling people. Autism. We're saying. 319 00:19:40.924 --> 00:19:44.605 Yeah, high fashion, low functioning. Person with autism because it 320 00:19:44.605 --> 00:19:47.965 goes without saying that I'm a person. And to me, if 321 00:19:47.965 --> 00:19:51.725 anyone insists on saying, no. You're not autistic. You have 322 00:19:51.725 --> 00:19:55.490 autism. You're a person with autism. To me, they are 323 00:19:55.490 --> 00:19:59.090 saying autism is a bad thing, and you shouldn't make 324 00:19:59.090 --> 00:20:02.450 it part of your identity. And I reject that 325 00:20:02.450 --> 00:20:05.970 because I think it's a neutral thing, and it's an 326 00:20:05.970 --> 00:20:09.635 adjective. So I'm happy to be described as autistic 327 00:20:09.635 --> 00:20:13.155 because it's an adjective. If you say, oh, no. You can't use it like a 328 00:20:13.155 --> 00:20:16.835 a normal adjective. You have to distance yourself from it. That's 329 00:20:16.835 --> 00:20:20.355 telling me they think that there's something wrong with being autistic. So just 330 00:20:20.355 --> 00:20:24.030 loads of really ableist with me. Yeah. I I think it's probably been 331 00:20:24.030 --> 00:20:26.929 inherited for the the physical disability community who 332 00:20:27.630 --> 00:20:31.070 use with, don't they, as a as a kind of a it's evolved as a 333 00:20:31.070 --> 00:20:34.289 kind of language. Yeah. The healthcare professionals, 334 00:20:35.475 --> 00:20:39.095 it doesn't come from the community. No. It's a medical model 335 00:20:39.155 --> 00:20:42.615 versus the societal model of disability. Yeah. So 336 00:20:42.915 --> 00:20:46.054 if you get taught person first language, 337 00:20:47.075 --> 00:20:50.450 it's usually because you're in a support role or you're a 338 00:20:50.450 --> 00:20:54.130 diagnostician or a teacher, or it's not because that's 339 00:20:54.130 --> 00:20:57.890 what the community have said they wanted. Back in the nineties, you might remember we 340 00:20:57.890 --> 00:21:01.645 had this, politically correct thing where they changed a lot of 341 00:21:01.645 --> 00:21:04.865 their language and dress things up in flower euphemisms, 342 00:21:05.245 --> 00:21:08.625 and it really didn't do diversity and inclusion 343 00:21:09.005 --> 00:21:12.765 any favors at all. And one of the first communities that came 344 00:21:12.765 --> 00:21:16.400 out of that saying no bollocks to all that was the deaf community. 345 00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:21.340 So in the politically correct is when people were saying, you 346 00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:25.180 have hearing impairments and you should say you're hard of 347 00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:27.680 hearing or you have a hearing impairment, 348 00:21:29.155 --> 00:21:32.515 Don't describe yourself as deaf because there's more to you than that. You're a 349 00:21:32.515 --> 00:21:36.355 person person. It was the deaf community that said bollocks to 350 00:21:36.355 --> 00:21:39.635 that. We're deaf. And they put a capital d at the beginning 351 00:21:39.955 --> 00:21:43.370 Yeah. And became the deaf community. The 352 00:21:43.370 --> 00:21:47.210 autism community were hot on their tails. Yeah. 353 00:21:47.210 --> 00:21:50.970 When I when I talk about adjectives or describing words or anything like this, 354 00:21:50.970 --> 00:21:54.570 like we're talking about now, is I tend to try and mix up the language. 355 00:21:54.570 --> 00:21:58.044 So I always say, a person with a disability or a disabled 356 00:21:58.044 --> 00:22:01.885 person, almost in one sentence. Because I know there are some people who I who 357 00:22:01.885 --> 00:22:04.845 would identify as 1 and one people who identify as so you try to be 358 00:22:04.845 --> 00:22:08.445 inclusive Yes. Cover all the terms possible. That's so 359 00:22:08.445 --> 00:22:12.050 really great. Approach. Yeah. Capital d deaf is 360 00:22:12.050 --> 00:22:14.870 important to people who are born deaf. Yeah. 361 00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:19.410 So I know other people who don't use I mean, there's I 362 00:22:19.410 --> 00:22:23.250 know a deaf speaker from the Speakers Collective who describes herself 363 00:22:23.250 --> 00:22:26.715 as deaf with a capital d and another deaf speaker 364 00:22:26.934 --> 00:22:30.695 in the professional speaking association who says that 365 00:22:30.695 --> 00:22:34.375 she has profound hearing impairments. So it's never gonna be the same for 366 00:22:34.375 --> 00:22:36.794 everyone, but you can look at what the community 367 00:22:37.930 --> 00:22:41.610 asks for and want and prefer as a whole rather than just 368 00:22:41.610 --> 00:22:45.450 being learning about something in a training course and thinking, oh, yeah. That must be 369 00:22:45.450 --> 00:22:48.970 the wishes of the community. Yeah. You'd never say someone has seeing 370 00:22:48.970 --> 00:22:52.595 impairment, would you? You'd say they were blind Yeah. Or hearing or 371 00:22:52.595 --> 00:22:56.275 sight loss or, short sighted, long sighted 372 00:22:56.435 --> 00:23:00.195 Yeah. Or myopic or, glaucoma or 373 00:23:00.195 --> 00:23:03.635 something. So you'd say, yeah, you have sight loss or Yeah. You're 374 00:23:03.635 --> 00:23:07.440 blind or going blind. ADHD is a funny 375 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.280 one because there isn't really a noun. There isn't really an adjective for 376 00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:14.800 ADHD. So we use ADHD as a 377 00:23:14.800 --> 00:23:18.240 adjective, sometimes under noun. You might say, I'm an 378 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.895 ADHDer or describe yourself as ADHD, but 379 00:23:21.895 --> 00:23:25.495 that's technically not correct because if you look at what it stands for, that's 380 00:23:25.495 --> 00:23:29.335 just grammatically nonsense. But still, a lot 381 00:23:29.335 --> 00:23:33.015 of us have done that just because we're trying to say it's part of our 382 00:23:33.015 --> 00:23:36.795 identity. It's part of who we are. It's how our brains are wired. 383 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.140 So it's it's not something we can distance ourselves from. 384 00:23:42.320 --> 00:23:45.919 I've heard people use ND for neurodiverse, or I've heard people use 385 00:23:45.919 --> 00:23:49.600 neurospicy other terms. Yeah. I guess it's down to them, isn't it? I 386 00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:53.305 mean, it's not a totally down to them. I personally don't 387 00:23:53.305 --> 00:23:56.685 like neurospicy because I think that it 388 00:23:57.545 --> 00:24:01.165 it it's kind of one of those euphemisms that 389 00:24:01.465 --> 00:24:05.145 plays down our, quite real disabilities and 390 00:24:05.145 --> 00:24:08.770 support needs. But The trivializing joking about it, obviously. 391 00:24:09.070 --> 00:24:12.910 That's the word. Yeah. But, I heard from members of 392 00:24:12.910 --> 00:24:16.750 the global majority have said, actually, some 393 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:20.265 Asian women, are described as 394 00:24:20.265 --> 00:24:23.544 spicy in a derogatory way. So it's 395 00:24:23.945 --> 00:24:27.784 it could be potentially I don't know if problematic is 396 00:24:27.784 --> 00:24:31.610 going a bit too far. Potentially insensitive, culturally 397 00:24:31.910 --> 00:24:35.750 insensitive. But then I'm not gonna tell people 398 00:24:35.750 --> 00:24:39.430 how to identify. So if you have got someone that does like to call 399 00:24:39.430 --> 00:24:43.190 themselves neurospicy, that's fine. But if they buy me a badge that says 400 00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:46.875 neurospicy on it, I'm not likely to wear it. So, I mean, you 401 00:24:47.515 --> 00:24:51.115