Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.
Joanne Lockwood: Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where
Joanne Lockwood: everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're
Joanne Lockwood: not alone. Join me as we uncover the
Joanne Lockwood: unseen, challenge the status quo, and share
Joanne Lockwood: stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive
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Joanne Lockwood: down after a long day, let's connect, reflect,
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Joanne Lockwood: you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: to share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So just your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 153 with the
Joanne Lockwood: title, fearless connections, bold journeys.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Anna
Joanne Lockwood: Van Atmel. Anna is the founder of Wandering Roots,
Joanne Lockwood: hosting transformative adventure retreats worldwide and empowering
Joanne Lockwood: women to design lives filled with authenticity, connection,
Joanne Lockwood: and purpose. When I asked Anna to describe her superpower, she said
Joanne Lockwood: that it is increasing risks to inspire fierce living
Joanne Lockwood: and authentic connections. Hello, Anna. Welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. So where
Joanne Lockwood: whereabouts in the world are you? Did you say Michigan? Yes. I'm in Michigan in
Anna VanAgtmael: the US. It's very cold here. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I was talking to someone from Atlanta the other day, and they said it was
Joanne Lockwood: almost snowing in Atlanta at this time. Yeah. I haven't heard It's kind of been
Anna VanAgtmael: a weird year for everybody even where it's not supposed to be cold. So
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Weird. Yeah. It was very wet. Very wet and a lot of storms over
Joanne Lockwood: there. So yeah. Yeah. The UK is not a not a happy place either.
Anna VanAgtmael: No. But, you know, everybody, I've actually hosted a few
Anna VanAgtmael: retreats in the UK, Scotland, and then also
Anna VanAgtmael: Ireland, and we're going to Iceland too this year. But I'm like, it's just
Anna VanAgtmael: weather. We're so used to it. It makes all of us pretty resilient. So I'm
Anna VanAgtmael: I'm happy to to dwell here. As
Joanne Lockwood: the saying goes, it's not the wrong weather. It's just the wrong clothing.
Anna VanAgtmael: Yes. No. I always say that. I always say there's no bad
Anna VanAgtmael: weather, just bad gear. Yeah. Exactly. Really well. I
Anna VanAgtmael: agree. Yeah. You can be wrapped up and snuggly in a huge coat, and,
Joanne Lockwood: you can be minus 10 outside. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So, Anna, what inspired you to leave? Yeah. You had
Joanne Lockwood: a successful career. What inspired you to leave that and pursue this life
Joanne Lockwood: of adventure where you create spaces for women? Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmael: For the most part, it was a long journey. It was a couple years.
Anna VanAgtmael: I will give you the highlights, the cliff notes, if you will. But I,
Anna VanAgtmael: I got the opportunity in my old career in laboratory
Anna VanAgtmael: medicine to start a build a lab. I was the
Anna VanAgtmael: first employee and there were the owners and that was it. I
Anna VanAgtmael: I built the lab, bought the equipment, hired the staff,
Anna VanAgtmael: and it sort of planted the seed of
Anna VanAgtmael: being an entrepreneur with no financial risk, which is usually a hang up
Anna VanAgtmael: for most of us. And, it just made me think
Anna VanAgtmael: a little differently, but also I had to have neck
Anna VanAgtmael: surgery around the same time. So I was in a neck brace for 4 months,
Anna VanAgtmael: and I couldn't do anything. Couldn't drive, had had to take a pause on
Anna VanAgtmael: work. It was the first time I probably paused ever in my life. I was
Anna VanAgtmael: 28. And, I had so much
Anna VanAgtmael: time to sit with my thoughts, and I was wildly unhappy. I had realized
Anna VanAgtmael: that I had achieved more financial and sort
Anna VanAgtmael: of career, like, climbing the ladder success than I ever thought
Anna VanAgtmael: possible, but I still wasn't jazzed about it.
Anna VanAgtmael: And I I just wanted I had this very
Anna VanAgtmael: wake up moment of I get one life. I've
Anna VanAgtmael: just felt my mortality for the first time. You know, in your twenties, you think
Anna VanAgtmael: you're gonna like, that's just something that happens to old people. And,
Anna VanAgtmael: I was like, I don't wanna screw this up. I wanna
Anna VanAgtmael: squeeze every drop out of it. I wanna be jazzed about it, and,
Anna VanAgtmael: this is not it. And, that's pretty terrifying.
Anna VanAgtmael: And there was a lot of shame around that of not being great more grateful
Anna VanAgtmael: for what I had. I had attained a lifestyle that I really
Anna VanAgtmael: enjoyed and didn't really want to start over and let go of.
Anna VanAgtmael: So, yeah, I.
Anna VanAgtmael: I took yoga teacher training to sort of help heal my
Anna VanAgtmael: chronic neck pain and not become a pain management patient. And,
Anna VanAgtmael: took yoga teacher training and I had been traveling quite a bit and I
Anna VanAgtmael: thought I had this experience in training that
Anna VanAgtmael: I was with 11 strangers, 11 women that were supporting each
Anna VanAgtmael: other. And we were sharing very vulnerable parts of ourselves, and
Anna VanAgtmael: everybody is loving and accepting each other for who they were and not who they
Anna VanAgtmael: were trying to be. And I thought I could create that type of
Anna VanAgtmael: environment, and combine up my love of travel and host a
Anna VanAgtmael: retreat. And I tried one in 2018,
Anna VanAgtmael: like, in Northern Michigan, a few hours away from where I live.
Anna VanAgtmael: And I did a long weekend, and then I did another one, and then I
Anna VanAgtmael: did another one, and then I started hosting international for 7
Anna VanAgtmael: days, and it just kinda took off from there. Wow. I'm loving it. I I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, I your kind of story there really resonates. You know, you get to that
Joanne Lockwood: point in your life where you think I could just carry on as I
Joanne Lockwood: am, walk into the distance with no control over my life,
Joanne Lockwood: just doing what everyone expects on this conveyor belt, off you go. Sometimes you
Joanne Lockwood: just have to hit the stop button, don't you? And just say, hang on. I
Joanne Lockwood: wanna get off for a minute and get figure out what I'm doing now. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmael: I had, like, right around the I also, at the same time of having
Anna VanAgtmael: that epiphany of, like, you only get a one chance. You only get one life.
Anna VanAgtmael: I was like, I have created all of this. And so if
Anna VanAgtmael: I'm passionate about my work, I'm sure I could have even more success.
Anna VanAgtmael: And also like, I never once thought about what I wanted. I
Anna VanAgtmael: was literally just being a practical human being, getting
Anna VanAgtmael: good grades, going to college, getting a job in healthcare, because
Anna VanAgtmael: there would be, you know, job security for the rest of my life. I never
Anna VanAgtmael: ever thought about, like, what I was passionate about or what inspired me
Anna VanAgtmael: or interested me. I guess you you must have been surrounded by
Joanne Lockwood: people who were inspired, but also cautious about
Joanne Lockwood: what you were doing. Sort of it's not not to say holding you back, but
Joanne Lockwood: they, you sure? Are you sure about this? Yeah. It was
Anna VanAgtmael: very, very practical. A lot of just practical human
Anna VanAgtmael: beings, which I kind of consider to be a little bit of sleep,
Anna VanAgtmael: just kinda comfortable and not really, like, living living. And
Anna VanAgtmael: right around the time I went to yoga teacher training, I
Anna VanAgtmael: sort of just tripped into this network of entrepreneurs at
Anna VanAgtmael: the same time. It was like those worlds of me sort of waking up
Anna VanAgtmael: and then being surrounded by other people that were thinking differently than the other
Anna VanAgtmael: people that I've been spending time with or even how I felt like had been
Anna VanAgtmael: thinking. So that was definitely the culmination. You know, they always say
Anna VanAgtmael: you're the, what is it? The 5 people you spend the
Anna VanAgtmael: most time with are usually a reflection of who you are as well.
Anna VanAgtmael: So Yes. That's very true. I I was looking through the, the
Joanne Lockwood: show notes you you sent through earlier and,
Joanne Lockwood: your kind of mantra around the fear
Joanne Lockwood: of doing things holds you back. But it's it's it's how you break through
Joanne Lockwood: that fear. And not to say being risk
Joanne Lockwood: adverse, but being risk managed and and knowing that the fear
Joanne Lockwood: is just it's just fake. It is.
Anna VanAgtmael: People do, assume I'm fearless and I'm not.
Anna VanAgtmael: Everybody has some fear. It's a fear, but,
Anna VanAgtmael: I have a bigger fear of
Anna VanAgtmael: getting to the end and, having regrets that I didn't try
Anna VanAgtmael: something than taking a risk. And my husband is
Anna VanAgtmael: very risk averse. And I'm just not.
Anna VanAgtmael: I side hustled the business, Wandering Roots, for 2
Anna VanAgtmael: years before I jumped in full time, tried to build an audience from
Anna VanAgtmael: scratch and knew that was gonna take a while, shoved money away into a
Anna VanAgtmael: savings account to try to make that leap a little, I
Anna VanAgtmael: guess, managed, risk managed. And, yeah, there's
Anna VanAgtmael: ways there are multiple ways to skin a cap. And, that's
Anna VanAgtmael: what works for me. I guess that's the roots of of being
Joanne Lockwood: an entrepreneur though, isn't it? It's it's risk management and just
Joanne Lockwood: going for it. All the time. I mean, how many
Anna VanAgtmael: how many times do you try something new as an entrepreneur? You're trying to figure
Anna VanAgtmael: out you're wearing all these hats. You're trying to figure out all these things. And
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, don't you know what a molecular diagnostic is? You know, is
Joanne Lockwood: it it sounds kind of really kind of big brain stuff.
Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I, we used to like, if you go to the
Anna VanAgtmael: doctor and you have your blood drawn, there's routine labs that
Anna VanAgtmael: just get that ran at a general hospital. And then
Anna VanAgtmael: anything specialized that gets sent out, that's what molecular
Anna VanAgtmael: diagnostics is. It's cancer screening. Prenatal
Anna VanAgtmael: diagnostics is a really big one, and that's what the last
Anna VanAgtmael: 7 years I spent time in. There's things for anything, though.
Anna VanAgtmael: Just just better testing, better diagnostics. It was
Anna VanAgtmael: I am a person that gets bored easily. I like to be challenged, and it
Anna VanAgtmael: fed my soul in that capacity for quite a while. And then
Anna VanAgtmael: having to start from scratch and manage people also was a
Anna VanAgtmael: challenge that I wasn't familiar with. So I'm
Anna VanAgtmael: grateful for it. It I always say that,
Anna VanAgtmael: you know, being an entrepreneur, the more, like, experience
Anna VanAgtmael: you have in a previous life is just going to serve you in this
Anna VanAgtmael: capacity because there are so many I I was really, really
Anna VanAgtmael: into data and publishing journal articles and things, and
Anna VanAgtmael: that really helps me serve my clients today
Anna VanAgtmael: when I plan their retreats because I am a numbers nerd. I love
Anna VanAgtmael: spreadsheets. Nobody that has ever hosted a
Anna VanAgtmael: retreat, myself included, is doing it for the profit, but it's the only way to
Anna VanAgtmael: sustain your business instead of operating an extensive hobby.
Anna VanAgtmael: To be able to share the work and the content you're passionate about
Anna VanAgtmael: and be able to energetically be able to do another
Anna VanAgtmael: one is really, really helpful, and a lot of people get bogged down by it.
Anna VanAgtmael: And that's just a thing that I had been fine tuning as a
Anna VanAgtmael: executive for a long time, 13 years. So
Anna VanAgtmael: it's kinda second nature. Well, like you said, that profit isn't
Joanne Lockwood: a dirty word. And if you wanna create a sustainable
Joanne Lockwood: business with legs that is there to serve the needs people you you
Joanne Lockwood: help, You have to have to earn money. You have to pay their mortgage and
Joanne Lockwood: the rent and they, put food on the table. Yeah. You gotta make enough
Anna VanAgtmael: money to pay for your venue and your support staff and then pay
Anna VanAgtmael: yourself. So you're part of the team. Yeah. We're not we're not all Bill Gates
Joanne Lockwood: philanthropists with billionaires that we can just expand for the fun of
Joanne Lockwood: it. Exactly. I what you're saying resonates completely because I I spent
Joanne Lockwood: most of my life in IT computing. Amazing.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So I I left well, actually, I was electronics engineer when I was at
Joanne Lockwood: school, and then moved over to IT, and then spent
Joanne Lockwood: 20 odd years, 25 years in in IT. Any small
Joanne Lockwood: business looking after small companies, venture
Joanne Lockwood: networks and servers and phone systems, that kind of stuff. And then I
Joanne Lockwood: got, I found my get off the conveyor belt moment
Joanne Lockwood: about 10 years ago and, jacked it all in and, created a
Joanne Lockwood: new career out of nothing. That was quite risky. And, there's no certainty
Joanne Lockwood: in that, is there? No. There's no certainty. I do
Anna VanAgtmael: I do think there's a lot of excitement in it, though. If you don't get
Anna VanAgtmael: bogged down by all the fear, it's like not a lot of people
Anna VanAgtmael: go after their dreams and just go for it. And it's the
Anna VanAgtmael: highest highs and the lowest lows. It's a mixed bag. But if
Anna VanAgtmael: you get too caught up into the lows, you never get to enjoy the highs.
Anna VanAgtmael: Wouldn't I would it was hard. And it still is, but
Anna VanAgtmael: I wouldn't I wouldn't change it. Yeah. I also look back at my my
Joanne Lockwood: career, if you want, or life in the past that you do pick up a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of these ice skills. So I'm I'm very I was very familiar with consulting,
Joanne Lockwood: engaging with customers, solution selling,
Joanne Lockwood: sales, marketing, business development, because it was my business, the IT
Joanne Lockwood: company. You gotta get used to all this stuff, organizing your own travel. So
Joanne Lockwood: when you start another business, you you've got all of these skills ready at hand,
Joanne Lockwood: haven't you? Yeah. Totally. I'm even thinking IT
Anna VanAgtmael: for podcasting. Like, all of the equipment and things is probably so
Anna VanAgtmael: much easier for someone like you. Yeah. I mean, COVID was
Joanne Lockwood: certainly easier. Yeah. Because one of my hobbies was
Joanne Lockwood: photography and videography and editing videos and
Joanne Lockwood: things like this. And suddenly we we need cameras. Suddenly we need
Joanne Lockwood: lightings, which are all the key elements to photography and videography is lighting
Joanne Lockwood: and cameras and, and sound. You were like, I've been training
Anna VanAgtmael: for a long time for this, guys. I got you. And in the first couple
Joanne Lockwood: of months of COVID, I was, providing a kind of
Joanne Lockwood: a an ad hoc service to people who were trying to get online and get
Joanne Lockwood: going and restart their businesses. So I was doing training for people
Joanne Lockwood: on how to set their cameras up, how to get their their on screen
Joanne Lockwood: presence looking good. And so that that gave me a bit of a purpose
Joanne Lockwood: for 2 or 3 months until the market suddenly picked up again,
Joanne Lockwood: like I start doing other stuff. But, yeah, it it gave me a a
Joanne Lockwood: purpose when, otherwise, I'd be sat in bed going, doom
Joanne Lockwood: is woe is me. So Yeah. Finding a bringing
Joanne Lockwood: all that expertise into the fore, It's just another
Joanne Lockwood: entrepreneurial trait. Isn't it saying, well, I I can see a gap here. There's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit of a market. Wasn't making a fortune. I was helping people.
Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I think that's, the entrepreneur mind. Right? It's always filling
Anna VanAgtmael: a need. Like, you were solving a problem. Was giving you
Anna VanAgtmael: purpose, and I think that there's a collision between, like, what lights you
Anna VanAgtmael: up and also solving a problem for the client. So So
Joanne Lockwood: you you now enjoy not only the organization and in the
Joanne Lockwood: logistics of getting people onto the retreat, you get the
Joanne Lockwood: bonus of going on the retreat and enjoying what you're creating
Joanne Lockwood: as well. Yeah. I, so I first just started just
Anna VanAgtmael: hosting retreats. And a lot of other entrepreneurs
Anna VanAgtmael: asked me, like, in the early years, would you ever plan it for other
Anna VanAgtmael: people? And so I said, no. I have no idea what I'm
Anna VanAgtmael: doing. I'm still figuring out. And then COVID happened, and I
Anna VanAgtmael: quit my lab job in October 2019
Anna VanAgtmael: only to have to cancel the majority of my events and my retreats for
Anna VanAgtmael: 2020. And I thought it was gonna be the 1st year, you know, both feet
Anna VanAgtmael: in, all this excitement, and it just really didn't work out
Anna VanAgtmael: that way. But I was like, okay. I don't wanna go back. This
Anna VanAgtmael: is a test from the universe and I I'm I'm like firm and that I
Anna VanAgtmael: don't want to do that anymore. And so I
Anna VanAgtmael: will take this time and create a service
Anna VanAgtmael: for the people that were requesting it, sort of giving me a purpose, like
Anna VanAgtmael: you said, filling a need and, treated a
Anna VanAgtmael: digital course at the same time, because what else do you do except
Anna VanAgtmael: record things at your house, you know, to put something out there.
Anna VanAgtmael: So I actually, in the last year,
Anna VanAgtmael: last year and this year too, is where I spend most of my time
Anna VanAgtmael: is helping other entrepreneurs plan and host their own.
Anna VanAgtmael: And then I still host 2 to 3 international
Anna VanAgtmael: ones of my own a year, but that's I used to do
Anna VanAgtmael: 6 a year, so that's scaled back significantly.
Joanne Lockwood: So the way helping others organize their events is less risky
Joanne Lockwood: than having to finance your own events, I guess. Of course, Christy. You are
Anna VanAgtmael: absolutely correct because I'm not putting out the capsule. They are. It's
Anna VanAgtmael: also it's my favorite. It's like being able to share
Anna VanAgtmael: all the mistakes I've made and hold their hand and tell them it's all gonna
Anna VanAgtmael: work out great. And people are so, so passionate about
Anna VanAgtmael: sharing whatever they want to share that it's really
Anna VanAgtmael: it feels like it wouldn't have happened without us working together. It feels like
Anna VanAgtmael: we find we got to bring it to the world together and hearing their
Anna VanAgtmael: story is just so much fun. It's like we really get to know
Anna VanAgtmael: each other, and it's just a lot of women supporting women and
Anna VanAgtmael: business owners supporting business owners. It's a lot of
Anna VanAgtmael: flexibility because I don't have to be there. I, you know, I can work on
Anna VanAgtmael: it, when I have time. I've never done a
Joanne Lockwood: retreat. I no. I I I've got a reason or excuse all why. I just
Joanne Lockwood: I just never have. Never been in the right time, the right place. I've seen
Joanne Lockwood: them advertised. I've seen people talking about them and look after Bali for a
Joanne Lockwood: week or fortnight or 2 weeks. Yeah. Whatever it may be. And I think, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. So what does a typical retreat look and feel
Joanne Lockwood: like? So good question. First of all, there are thousands of them, and
Anna VanAgtmael: they're all very different. And I've helped them, like, just
Anna VanAgtmael: so many different types of humans plan theirs, like food
Anna VanAgtmael: photography, actors. You know, there's people in the wellness sphere of,
Anna VanAgtmael: like, Reiki, massage therapy, Thai massage, woman that runs a
Anna VanAgtmael: nonprofit just for Asian women. There's just, there's just so many ways you
Anna VanAgtmael: can do it. But mine, I want everybody to try something that
Anna VanAgtmael: kind of terrifies them. I want them to like step outside of their comfort
Anna VanAgtmael: zone with a supportive group of people around them
Anna VanAgtmael: and also have that pause like I did where all of your
Anna VanAgtmael: responsibility is taken care of because we have a personal chef. We
Anna VanAgtmael: have somebody there that's taking photos so you can disconnect from
Anna VanAgtmael: your phone all week. And then you
Anna VanAgtmael: literally I always say the itinerary is just the suggestion.
Anna VanAgtmael: Pick and choose the things in the present moment of what you actually wanna
Anna VanAgtmael: participate in and tune into what you actually want day to day,
Anna VanAgtmael: but also what you want out of life and, see if we can maybe
Anna VanAgtmael: take something from that experience and incorporate it into your your daily
Anna VanAgtmael: life. Yeah. I love that. I I heard someone describe another
Joanne Lockwood: organization I was doing some work with as, I use the f word.
Joanne Lockwood: Fucking out with friends is what they described it as. So you you go out
Joanne Lockwood: to these places That's my favorite word. Fucking around with friends and stealing it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So you're basically you just know you got a supportive environment. There's no
Joanne Lockwood: silly questions. There's no silly mistakes. Everyone's there to pick you up, which is
Joanne Lockwood: the opposite of social media. Because everyone on social media wants to put you down.
Joanne Lockwood: This is picking you up and Ours is turning into a little
Anna VanAgtmael: bit of, like, adult summer camp almost where
Anna VanAgtmael: people meet, become friends, and then they, like, get together to, like,
Anna VanAgtmael: book the same one for the following year so they can reunite.
Anna VanAgtmael: And, you know, when you're in summer camp, you're always like, what week are you
Anna VanAgtmael: coming back next year? And you try to, like, you know, line it up with
Anna VanAgtmael: your besties. But, yeah, it's so much fun. It's really,
Anna VanAgtmael: really rewarding to be able to see these people every
Anna VanAgtmael: single year and sometimes more than once a year.
Anna VanAgtmael: And watching strangers become friends is fun too. It's really
Joanne Lockwood: That's beautiful. Yeah. So I can imagine you there. The the
Joanne Lockwood: coach arrives from the airport. There you are with the clipboard ticking people
Joanne Lockwood: off. Yep. Shelly, number 1. Shelly, number 2. Yeah. I'm the
Anna VanAgtmael: only one that knows what room they're in because I do all the logistics,
Anna VanAgtmael: but there's always a, like, just a chaotic massive
Anna VanAgtmael: bags and hugs and things. And then we usually have
Anna VanAgtmael: our first meal together and do intros. We go around
Anna VanAgtmael: the table, and everybody does a quick intro. And then I make everybody go around
Anna VanAgtmael: the table and say 3 things they love about themselves because I
Anna VanAgtmael: think we can get bogged down with the the roles and
Anna VanAgtmael: responsibilities and all the hats we wear. And, you kinda get the
Anna VanAgtmael: essence of who they are as a being when they just say the three things
Anna VanAgtmael: they love about themselves. So it's nice. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwood: would I would just say if they come multiple years, whether they say the same
Joanne Lockwood: as three things, that'd be interesting to track that. Yeah. You know, we can sometimes
Anna VanAgtmael: see people get a little more confident and say, like, bigger things, you know,
Anna VanAgtmael: because sometimes it's hard for people to to find through things, which is kinda
Anna VanAgtmael: hard and sad. But for some people that have no problem with 3 and they
Anna VanAgtmael: could do another 3 the following year, they could do 6 right away. You
Anna VanAgtmael: know? So, I was just my mind was just wondering there thinking, what
Joanne Lockwood: have what have you done this year? Kicked my husband out, got a new life,
Joanne Lockwood: and living my best life now. So that's all the empowerment you've given people. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. One lady quit her job before she went home. 1 year. Goes to
Anna VanAgtmael: Rica. Oh, it's just Well, I I guess that's what you're
Joanne Lockwood: trying to you're trying to give people that empowerment. You wake people up. Some
Anna VanAgtmael: people wake up more than others. Some people
Anna VanAgtmael: really just need the space to just
Anna VanAgtmael: to just reset. You know? Because you get hung up on
Joanne Lockwood: the grind, don't you? You're just you're doing the same thing day in, day out
Joanne Lockwood: and so familiar with what you're doing and everything
Joanne Lockwood: else rushes by. Yeah? Yeah. So you step out of it?
Anna VanAgtmael: I think there I think that you can do any of this type of work
Anna VanAgtmael: at home. You can. I just think it's easier to go away
Anna VanAgtmael: sometimes to to not have any
Anna VanAgtmael: distractions. We have multiple women that say they've never felt that
Anna VanAgtmael: taken care of. So sometimes just that reminder that you are worthy
Anna VanAgtmael: of being taken care of is really beautiful. I personally, I
Anna VanAgtmael: work from home, and it takes a lot for your time management. I don't know
Anna VanAgtmael: if you feel the same way, but, like, you can get
Anna VanAgtmael: distracted by the dog or the laundry or just anything stupid
Anna VanAgtmael: and then kinda get into your cycle of routines and forget to pause
Anna VanAgtmael: anyways. You know? So Yeah. I mean, that's my procrastinating
Joanne Lockwood: brain. There's something shiny or something, a squirrel or something else sort of under the
Joanne Lockwood: bus. Oh, look. It's got It's not even there. It's not still
Anna VanAgtmael: outside. Oh, shoot. I was supposed to do this proposal or that
Joanne Lockwood: proposal or get that done. It it cram all in the last half an hour
Joanne Lockwood: of the day, and he goes, that was alright. We made it in the end.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Be less stressful if I just got all within the morning and then didn't
Joanne Lockwood: get distracted. I feel that. I feel that.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't think my brain would've worked properly if I forced it. I saw that.
Anna VanAgtmael: I I often get days like that. I really appreciate a slow morning and just
Anna VanAgtmael: sort of being eased into the day. I'm more of a night person than a
Anna VanAgtmael: morning, and I feel a little bit sharper after that,
Anna VanAgtmael: like, hour of brain fog kinda like burns off. But so
Anna VanAgtmael: I feel like morning is still a more productive, like, part of
Anna VanAgtmael: my day, but that first hour, forget it. It just feels forced.
Anna VanAgtmael: It feels too forced. Yeah. I'm a, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: a work from bed person for the person 2 hours a day. So I
Joanne Lockwood: I get up about half 6 quarter to 7 most mornings,
Joanne Lockwood: get my phone out, check LinkedIn, check social medias,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe write a blog post on my phone or talk to it, do a bit
Joanne Lockwood: of AI processing. And I get up, have some breakfast. About
Joanne Lockwood: 10 o'clock, I'll start actually booking meetings and doing stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, it's kind of my start. And then in the evening, I'll I'll
Joanne Lockwood: get off my desk here, and I'll I'll sit in the lounge for an hour
Joanne Lockwood: just on the phone, just checking a few things, social media.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, I I kind of try and occupy different spaces and do
Joanne Lockwood: different tasks that, made me happy. There's no
Joanne Lockwood: point sitting in a chair and feeling uncomfortable if you might as well sit on
Joanne Lockwood: the sofa and do some of this stuff. You got to do more through you.
Anna VanAgtmael: I a 100% agree. I have a friend that gets up and
Anna VanAgtmael: writes for 4 hours every single day, and then she
Anna VanAgtmael: fuck fucks off in the afternoon. She just is, like, never.
Anna VanAgtmael: She just sucks in the afternoon. She can't get anything done. And even if
Anna VanAgtmael: she forced it, it takes her, you know, double the length of time. So she's
Anna VanAgtmael: like, what's the point? So, yeah, she just commits to that.
Anna VanAgtmael: Like, we should just do whatever works for you. I let you just say, I
Joanne Lockwood: I I have that attitude to the whole of December. As soon as the
Joanne Lockwood: as soon as it gets dark in the evenings, as soon as I I
Joanne Lockwood: detect a bit of holiday mode kicking in, I'm kinda like, I'm just I'm
Joanne Lockwood: not just on the run run down here for Christmas Eve. I'm just yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Just Same. Having a I actually took the last 3 weeks
Anna VanAgtmael: of the year off last year, December. It's just it's a
Anna VanAgtmael: wasteland. My husband's seasonal. He's a landscaper.
Anna VanAgtmael: So he's off doing nothing, and I'm like, well, I want to do nothing.
Anna VanAgtmael: You know? So it's just and then, yeah, it feels like it's 10
Anna VanAgtmael: o'clock at 6 because it's pitch black, and I just I lack
Anna VanAgtmael: the motivation. A couple years ago, my wife actually joined me
Joanne Lockwood: in the business. So she gave up her, paid
Joanne Lockwood: employment by a, yeah, by a company and, and
Joanne Lockwood: joined me. So because one of the challenges of the app was that I
Joanne Lockwood: had the flexibility of freedom to work when I want and also work when I
Joanne Lockwood: don't want to. That's the only trouble with entrepreneurship. You work when you want, but
Joanne Lockwood: also work when you don't want. Yep. And there was a couple of times where
Joanne Lockwood: I just said, oh, we should go away this weekend or go away on the
Joanne Lockwood: Friday or just do it midweek. Of course, she was then restricted
Joanne Lockwood: by, the paid employment. Yeah. So
Joanne Lockwood: somehow I just thought, let's make this work. And it's that's not be easy.
Joanne Lockwood: It's trying to generate all the whole entire household income from
Joanne Lockwood: from one stream. But, Yeah. We can now if we wanna go away for the
Joanne Lockwood: weekend, we wanna stop working at 5 o'clock. Just go just go do something.
Anna VanAgtmael: So we're in the we're in the same camp. We are both on our
Anna VanAgtmael: own businesses as well. So I feel the the freedom and the flexibility
Anna VanAgtmael: and the joy of it, and then also the pressure of just like nothing to
Anna VanAgtmael: share. But It is. Yeah. It's nice. It's
Anna VanAgtmael: mostly nice. Paying for our insurance is crushing my spirit at the
Anna VanAgtmael: moment, but it's fine. It's just one of the byproducts of of doing
Anna VanAgtmael: it your own way. It's it's definitely a said to be said
Joanne Lockwood: where you should not care for you. You're both on different pages and and
Joanne Lockwood: different speeds. But but but yeah. As you said, you you're
Joanne Lockwood: both entrepreneurs. You both have your own businesses. You can both make decisions when you
Joanne Lockwood: want to. Mhmm. When there was a disconnect, it it became frustrating for
Joanne Lockwood: both of us. Yeah. I I wanna do something, like, and we can't.
Joanne Lockwood: Marie would look at me and say, oh, so right for you, being a do
Joanne Lockwood: what you want, I'm gonna go. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it it's it's been a
Joanne Lockwood: huge change to our relationship over the last 3 or 4 years now. It's,
Joanne Lockwood: immensely more powerful. I think that adds to the entrepreneurial journey
Joanne Lockwood: because Vidi does become your lifestyle, not just your business.
Anna VanAgtmael: Totally. And I think we've both, like, grown
Anna VanAgtmael: at sort of the same rate, but at different times
Anna VanAgtmael: because there's so many limiting beliefs you have to overcome too as an
Anna VanAgtmael: entrepreneur and things like that. So I sort of think that
Anna VanAgtmael: there would have been a disconnect of, like, one of us sort of
Anna VanAgtmael: being stuck in this older, like, kinda timeframe and
Anna VanAgtmael: then the other one moving forward. And so it's
Anna VanAgtmael: been a lot. It's been incredible, honestly.
Anna VanAgtmael: So yeah. Are are you building a brand, or are you just building
Joanne Lockwood: a a a single person business type thing? Are you are you just
Joanne Lockwood: trying to build it to sell, or are you just building it to live? So
Anna VanAgtmael: we are just building it to live both of them. He
Anna VanAgtmael: potentially he's never wanted to get too big where he
Anna VanAgtmael: couldn't be there and work on his own jobs. Like, they're his designs, and he
Anna VanAgtmael: wants to see them through to the end. And there's also, like, so much
Anna VanAgtmael: equipment involved in running each crew, and we don't really want
Anna VanAgtmael: to to have that much overhead and equipment. So
Anna VanAgtmael: he very much got to a point he's in his 8th year and
Anna VanAgtmael: I'm in my 7th. And he,
Anna VanAgtmael: just was like, this is it. I will only take on this many jobs
Anna VanAgtmael: per year and that's it. I don't want to grow.
Anna VanAgtmael: I, and then he potentially would sell
Anna VanAgtmael: to his, employee that he's had for the majority of the
Anna VanAgtmael: time. Something for a later discussion when we're in our our early forties.
Anna VanAgtmael: But, I have 2 best
Anna VanAgtmael: friends that I've hosted every single we've hosted 22 times
Anna VanAgtmael: together. One's the chef, one's the photographer. And,
Anna VanAgtmael: if either one of them wanted to carry it on whenever I decide I'd
Anna VanAgtmael: no longer want to do it, they would be able to do it. Otherwise, I
Anna VanAgtmael: would just close it. It's it's my brand. It's my baby.
Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I'm with you. I mean, my IT companies, I had
Joanne Lockwood: 30 odd staff, £3,000,000, u UK pound turnover,
Joanne Lockwood: stress, wage bills, and taxes, all this kind of stuff on
Joanne Lockwood: premises. And I when I started doing this freelancing
Joanne Lockwood: and I started I took on a social media person. I took on a
Joanne Lockwood: a graphic designer to do some of the assets. Suddenly, I thought, you know what
Joanne Lockwood: I mean? I'm taking on over. I don't want people. I don't wanna be responsible
Joanne Lockwood: for people anymore. Yeah. I don't either. It and
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I had a I didn't have as big of a I
Anna VanAgtmael: only had 10 people probably towards the end that reported
Anna VanAgtmael: to me. It was fine. I just it's not something I wanna do all this.
Anna VanAgtmael: No. I like hiring contractors, like you said. I really love, like,
Anna VanAgtmael: hiring a professional that I know can do a better job
Anna VanAgtmael: than what I could. And I would also, like, waste so
Anna VanAgtmael: much time on getting a result that I wasn't just about and then
Anna VanAgtmael: just letting them go, like, offloading it from my plate,
Anna VanAgtmael: just hiring somebody I trust and love and, yeah, contractors
Anna VanAgtmael: like that. That's that's usually what I do. I suppose I'm
Joanne Lockwood: taking advantage of AI tools now. I treat them as my assistant. So you
Joanne Lockwood: got writing assistants and copywriters and letter writers and
Joanne Lockwood: marketing copy. And even you can generate a good enough graphic with
Joanne Lockwood: a bit of bit of prompting and stuff. So, yeah, I I feel I've got
Joanne Lockwood: a team around me. They're just they're just not real. They're just AI. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmael: No. I agree. Especially in the last, like, couple years, it's
Anna VanAgtmael: really Yeah. Made it easier. Getting better. You know, the tools that come out all
Joanne Lockwood: the time now is whatever chat GPT and OpenAI are looking at these
Joanne Lockwood: agents and things, you can Yeah. Start handling all your inquiries. I've
Joanne Lockwood: got some other automation stuff I work on with another platform.
Joanne Lockwood: You just drop somebody in it. I'd like this podcast I've sung. I was gonna
Joanne Lockwood: drop it into a workflow, and it spit out all the stuff I need at
Joanne Lockwood: the end of it without any real interaction. So
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like I've got friends to help. It's just digital friends.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So
Joanne Lockwood: what was the biggest lesson you've learned stepping out into the wind, into the
Joanne Lockwood: cold, into the entrepreneurial life? What did what did you look back on as I
Joanne Lockwood: did know that? I think that I think that if you're
Anna VanAgtmael: making if you're not making the same mistakes, you're doing it right. I think
Anna VanAgtmael: there's so much trial and error. And you learn the most
Anna VanAgtmael: when you when it doesn't work out the way you wanted. You can either pivot
Anna VanAgtmael: like, ugh, I don't wanna do this at all. It didn't work out at all.
Anna VanAgtmael: Or you just have more information to move forward and tweak
Anna VanAgtmael: things. Life is all about learning and moving forward. And I
Anna VanAgtmael: think that a lot of people get so in their head and that they
Anna VanAgtmael: don't even try. And the the difference between the people that do and don't is
Anna VanAgtmael: just they tried and they kept going. That's it. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you on that. Yeah. It's you have to let's use the
Joanne Lockwood: f word again. You have to fuck up quickly and move on quickly. And know
Joanne Lockwood: what works, know what doesn't work. And, yeah, I think I've made so many
Joanne Lockwood: mistakes over the last couple of years, but also so many
Joanne Lockwood: recoveries as well. Yeah. And that gives you more
Anna VanAgtmael: confidence. It builds resiliency and confidence just moving
Anna VanAgtmael: on from that. I I really agree with you of moving on quickly.
Anna VanAgtmael: You can't just dwell on your own shit. Like, it just learn the
Anna VanAgtmael: lesson and move on. Yeah. I think you're
Joanne Lockwood: allowed to cry for a bit and get upset with yourself and shout at the
Joanne Lockwood: mirror and go, maybe not sit for a couple of nights. And then
Joanne Lockwood: it it just go, yeah, done that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Don't let it take you
Anna VanAgtmael: down for too long. I agree. Yeah. Just move on quickly.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's the people you work with,
Joanne Lockwood: so the the women that come to your retreats or the retreats of the people
Joanne Lockwood: you work with, they're looking for
Joanne Lockwood: authenticity, empowerment. What's that look
Joanne Lockwood: like really? Yeah. Because people listen to this podcast. We're trying to get into the
Joanne Lockwood: heads of the people listening. So if you're listening to this, we're talk we're talking
Joanne Lockwood: to you right now. So what's the what's the retreat really gonna
Joanne Lockwood: do other than the buzzwords? Yeah. I think that
Anna VanAgtmael: anytime you are just feeling called and, like, hold and
Anna VanAgtmael: something just keeps coming up on your radar, you're meant to do that thing. You're
Anna VanAgtmael: meant to give it a shot. And I would say that
Anna VanAgtmael: everybody that is coming is feeling a little bit in a transitional
Anna VanAgtmael: period of time, a little bit stuck or a little bit like
Anna VanAgtmael: what's my next move? Is this really what I want? They're
Anna VanAgtmael: they're all alike in that of wanting just a little bit more.
Anna VanAgtmael: Sometimes not having any clue what that looks like, so getting
Anna VanAgtmael: stuck and, you know, moving forward. But I will say when I started
Anna VanAgtmael: wandering roots from scratch, there was a period of time where I knew I wanted
Anna VanAgtmael: to make a change, but I had no idea what I wanted to do. And
Anna VanAgtmael: I just started doing things that interested me and
Anna VanAgtmael: kinda scared the hell out of me. So usually your mind to keep you
Anna VanAgtmael: safe says, no, you can't do that. That's scary. Or,
Anna VanAgtmael: no, how would you ever learn how to do that? And everybody's a beginner
Anna VanAgtmael: for anything one time. That's how you get better at things. You keep doing it
Anna VanAgtmael: over and over. So the more you can just give
Anna VanAgtmael: it a shot and then give your per self permission to just quit it
Anna VanAgtmael: if you don't like it. Life isn't that serious. You don't have to take yourself
Anna VanAgtmael: that seriously. And also don't get caught up in not
Anna VanAgtmael: knowing what you want yet. Just keep trying things. I like
Joanne Lockwood: that. Because I used to say when I was starting this business, I
Joanne Lockwood: was I was wandering around the woods with no
Joanne Lockwood: compass and no satnav, just figuring out I turn left or turn
Joanne Lockwood: right. Oh, no. Don't like this. Go back. Try again and go that way. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's it's the joy of of being lost with purpose, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like. Yeah. Trying to find the exit. Well, that's
Anna VanAgtmael: such a good way to describe it. It's yeah. I
Anna VanAgtmael: feel that to my core. That's exactly what it felt like. No
Anna VanAgtmael: direction, but some purpose. It's just, like, trying to figure it out. I
Anna VanAgtmael: mean, I also like I thought that I would just, like,
Anna VanAgtmael: plan people's retreats and teach yoga at a studio or plan people's
Anna VanAgtmael: vacations. I didn't even think about a retreat initially. I was
Anna VanAgtmael: just, like, putting a few feelers out there, trying things, and then
Anna VanAgtmael: being like, I don't know if I wanna do that. You know? So,
Anna VanAgtmael: yeah, it really, evolved into something I didn't
Anna VanAgtmael: even consider in the beginning. It's a question then. So these
Joanne Lockwood: your traits are for women, I. E. Not for men,
Joanne Lockwood: is an easy way of describing it. How does how do
Joanne Lockwood: they empower women being in a a female only space
Joanne Lockwood: with feminine energy, if you like, or that connection?
Joanne Lockwood: How's that different to differ from mixed
Joanne Lockwood: environments or the traditional home
Joanne Lockwood: networks they have? So I did
Anna VanAgtmael: do a couple's retreat one time, and we had mixed couples.
Anna VanAgtmael: We had, you know, gay couples, lesbians, but we had we
Anna VanAgtmael: had men for the first time. It just people weren't as open and
Anna VanAgtmael: didn't connect as quickly. I don't know if it was because their partner was there.
Anna VanAgtmael: Sometimes it's actually, I feel like most of my
Anna VanAgtmael: guests would say this. It's usually easier to tell a stranger
Anna VanAgtmael: something like some secret or something vulnerable
Anna VanAgtmael: because they don't know anything about you. They don't have
Anna VanAgtmael: everybody that you spend time with sees you in a
Anna VanAgtmael: certain container and box because that's how they see themselves. And so
Anna VanAgtmael: to not have those, like, boxes or
Anna VanAgtmael: these, like, just these, like, relationships that kinda have these just
Anna VanAgtmael: repeated patterns. It's a lot easier to just
Anna VanAgtmael: be open, be vulnerable, start over,
Anna VanAgtmael: not be bogged down by how you're supposed to show up.
Anna VanAgtmael: That's been my experience. I actually have been,
Anna VanAgtmael: have several clients that host mixture treats
Anna VanAgtmael: and, they love it and they have, and they do like large groups. I
Anna VanAgtmael: don't love a large group. I don't really like the sound of it. I don't
Anna VanAgtmael: know. I'm very sensitive to like, some minor usually 10 to 12,
Anna VanAgtmael: but, like, again, you could can do anything in
Anna VanAgtmael: a retreat. It's just a container for whatever you wanna share. So the key
Joanne Lockwood: element, I think what you're saying there is it's in order to to let
Joanne Lockwood: go of these beliefs, let go of what you're trying to let go of or
Joanne Lockwood: or find something you're you're you're exploring, you've almost gotta
Joanne Lockwood: do it metaphorically naked without any baggage,
Joanne Lockwood: without anything with you. You you turn out. So it could be mixed,
Joanne Lockwood: but as long as you're not mixed with anybody you know, so you turn out
Joanne Lockwood: with a group of strangers of it. 100%. I think the
Anna VanAgtmael: one my girlfriends that host the ones that are mixed, it's just a
Anna VanAgtmael: large group of just mostly single people or people
Anna VanAgtmael: that traveled solo. A lot of people
Anna VanAgtmael: and this was a lot in the beginning. We got a lot of people that
Anna VanAgtmael: only wanted to come with a friend, and it's like, you meet more people too.
Anna VanAgtmael: If you don't come with a friend, because that you don't have the security blanket
Anna VanAgtmael: that you're like attached to, you gotta put yourself out there more, which means
Anna VanAgtmael: you'll also try other things, not just getting to know strangers, but you'll try
Anna VanAgtmael: other things. So I think coming by yourself is the best
Anna VanAgtmael: way to go. Yeah. And if you have social anxiety,
Joanne Lockwood: you're you're introvert. You're not good at making friends. You're right.
Joanne Lockwood: But there's bound to be somebody else in the group who is exactly the same.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. And then you'll pair up of 2 people who are okay. I'm a different
Joanne Lockwood: person. I don't wanna talk to anyone either. We'll we'll be friends and talk to
Joanne Lockwood: each other and Yep. S, you connect, don't you? You'll connect over that. You'll
Anna VanAgtmael: connect over your social anxiety. We have that happen all the time. Totally.
Joanne Lockwood: Did you see a rise as a result of COVID of of more social
Joanne Lockwood: anxiety? People having this you go from FOMO to to
Joanne Lockwood: CBA. You can't be asked to go back out again. You know, Yuri?
Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I will say that, in the beginning, people were
Anna VanAgtmael: just a little bit nervous, especially to travel international. And,
Anna VanAgtmael: honestly, in the very beginning, it was, like, really hard to keep track
Anna VanAgtmael: of, do I have to have a negative test
Anna VanAgtmael: to come home? And and, like, those regulations kept changing. I, actually,
Anna VanAgtmael: because of my lab background, found these telehealth tests that were
Anna VanAgtmael: accepted by PSA. And so we were able to as
Anna VanAgtmael: long as we had Wi Fi tests at our venue, we didn't have to, like,
Anna VanAgtmael: ship everybody to, like, a health center or anything like that.
Anna VanAgtmael: So and then I really managed travel insurance
Anna VanAgtmael: and other things like that just in case, like, you know, worst came to worst.
Anna VanAgtmael: That never happened. Thankfully, nobody tested positive. But after all
Anna VanAgtmael: of that, after maybe, like, 6 months of sort of
Anna VanAgtmael: that being the reality, it almost helped us.
Anna VanAgtmael: People were so, like, starved for human connection
Anna VanAgtmael: and, travel travel
Anna VanAgtmael: pushes you anyways. I think it really expands your mind
Anna VanAgtmael: and just your flexibility and how seriously you take yourself.
Anna VanAgtmael: And, I think people are really missing that. They were missing being
Anna VanAgtmael: able to experience new things and being able to go
Anna VanAgtmael: on an adventure. Yeah. I can always say, in my thirties and forties,
Joanne Lockwood: I I traveled extensively once. I used to work for a bank, and they
Joanne Lockwood: had global offices. And I spent a lot of time in LA and San
Joanne Lockwood: Diego, Miami, New York, and, of course, the Far East, Hong
Joanne Lockwood: Kong. But I saw this all all these glamorous locations around the world with
Joanne Lockwood: a small team of IT implement implementation teams. So we were
Joanne Lockwood: working hard, playing hard. We finished work at 5,
Joanne Lockwood: and we pass until 5. Then we never know our sleeves, and we get back.
Joanne Lockwood: We do this. And, you know, we were we were in Singapore and Hong Kong
Joanne Lockwood: for, I think, between them about 4 weeks between them.
Joanne Lockwood: I got home, and I was just like, oh, I've done it. I've I've I've
Joanne Lockwood: I've maxed out the the the country. I've done it well. Maxed out
Joanne Lockwood: the clubs anyway. So I think you do need to go and explore a bit
Joanne Lockwood: of the world. It's what it's certainly given me a a different outlook. It's a
Joanne Lockwood: good one. Another experience I have was I was a member of a club, and
Joanne Lockwood: it adds, a network of clubs all around the world again.
Joanne Lockwood: And we were doing home hosting. We were just racking up in Iceland and staying
Joanne Lockwood: in someone's house for a week, in their hot tub or in
Joanne Lockwood: their jacuzzi and sauna in the back garden. In Finland, we're all
Joanne Lockwood: walking around in the snow drinking vodka and going into the sauna. And you
Joanne Lockwood: just live live the life of a local for a week or so. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: And the experience you just can't buy. Yeah. It's it's like
Joanne Lockwood: Airbnb where the where the guest stays with you. So they stay with the host.
Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I a 100% agree with that. It's
Anna VanAgtmael: fascinating to see how other parts of the world live. It's so
Anna VanAgtmael: different, and it's awesome. Not the
Joanne Lockwood: hotel version or the the backpacker versions. It's kind of like the everyday. They
Joanne Lockwood: go off to work, you go and do something, and they give you they lend
Joanne Lockwood: you their car, and you just go and do something. It's like Yeah. Yes. People
Joanne Lockwood: are incredibly generous when you get to them. There's that trust built.
Anna VanAgtmael: And they're usually we always hire a driver or a guy that's local
Anna VanAgtmael: so that they can give you sort of the history or fun facts and sort
Anna VanAgtmael: of take you off the beaten path. But it's more people wanna talk to them
Anna VanAgtmael: about, like, their family and, you know, where they grew up and
Anna VanAgtmael: what school's like there. And, yeah, those types of questions, like the day to
Anna VanAgtmael: day, how different it is. And, that's always
Anna VanAgtmael: we keep in touch with almost all of our drivers because we get so much
Anna VanAgtmael: time with them, and they're usually just so much fun. So, yeah, it's
Anna VanAgtmael: fun. Yeah. I'm just in in that moment, you're talking
Joanne Lockwood: about drives are so much fun. We were out in, I think it
Joanne Lockwood: was Amsterdam in the Netherlands, and we got
Joanne Lockwood: an Uber. And what and we're going I don't know. We're going for half an
Joanne Lockwood: hour or something at least half an hour on Uber. And one of the friends
Joanne Lockwood: I was said, excuse me, driver. Can can I can I pair my phone
Joanne Lockwood: with your stereo? And then we can play our own music in the car. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Sure. Here's the pairing code. So suddenly we've got this playlist in the back of
Joanne Lockwood: the car. We'll see, oh, the fact that it's over. I think we probably drank
Joanne Lockwood: too much. That helped. But, yeah, it was, for those moments where we now have
Joanne Lockwood: Uber karaoke works. So Uber will let us put on the,
Joanne Lockwood: connect to this, their their HiFi system. Well, I love a good travel story.
Anna VanAgtmael: A lot of Yeah. You know? The memories.
Anna VanAgtmael: Right? The experience. Yeah. They're so enriching.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I think in a way that helps the
Joanne Lockwood: entrepreneurial mindset because you you get so used to these random
Joanne Lockwood: situations that are outside your comfort zone that mostly turn out
Joanne Lockwood: well. Yeah. Or with a with a really crazy story that you you kinda tap
Joanne Lockwood: can't tell anybody, but you're not dead. Yep. You know?
Joanne Lockwood: Survived it. Yeah. I think too
Anna VanAgtmael: when we're in a group, it's it's sort of that, like,
Anna VanAgtmael: they had to be there for it to be funny, and that sort of connects
Anna VanAgtmael: as well. You all have that funny story together. And so, yeah,
Anna VanAgtmael: the human connection. What goes on tour stays on tour sort
Joanne Lockwood: of mentality. It's it's it's like was it that film, The
Joanne Lockwood: Hangover? You know, you you have to be there to experience it. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So without giving anything too drastic away, what are the
Joanne Lockwood: what's the biggest fuck up you've ever had that that that turned out okay in
Joanne Lockwood: the end? Yeah. So I actually this did not
Anna VanAgtmael: happen on a retreat, thankfully, but we got stuck in a
Anna VanAgtmael: tropical storm like a like, they got 11 inches
Anna VanAgtmael: of rain in Costa Rica. It was, like, the worst rain storm they had
Anna VanAgtmael: had in, like, 13 years or something. And, we
Anna VanAgtmael: were supposed to move just, like, 20 minutes
Anna VanAgtmael: location wise. A lot of times me and my 2 girlfriends will
Anna VanAgtmael: go scout a location before, and we
Anna VanAgtmael: it started raining and, like, it always does. So you just wait an
Anna VanAgtmael: hour or 2 and then you go. And we were up in the mountains and
Anna VanAgtmael: we just had to drive down to the beach basically, and it just
Anna VanAgtmael: never stopped. And it was like rain from, like, like, where it
Anna VanAgtmael: looks like a wall. It just was raining so hard. But
Anna VanAgtmael: we're like, well, we gotta we gotta go. We have a we have 4 wheel
Anna VanAgtmael: drive. We'll give it our best shot. And we got stuck in a mudslide,
Anna VanAgtmael: and the car started coming back down the hill and it got stuck
Anna VanAgtmael: the back tire on the passenger side, got stuck in a concrete
Anna VanAgtmael: culvert, thankfully. And so we walked back down the
Anna VanAgtmael: hill. I mean, we're just soaking wet and they thankfully
Anna VanAgtmael: had an empty room and we just stayed the night there. And in the morning,
Anna VanAgtmael: the entire road had washed out. So if we hadn't made it up the first
Anna VanAgtmael: hill, we would have just been on our river. We would have never seen it.
Anna VanAgtmael: It was so dark out there. I was
Anna VanAgtmael: like, this I just was like, you know,
Anna VanAgtmael: I think I'm gonna hire a driver from now on, like to navigate
Anna VanAgtmael: just this shit because I also
Anna VanAgtmael: can't navigate and talk. So sometimes it will be in a
Anna VanAgtmael: car for a half an hour, an hour, and I'd rather talk with the guest.
Anna VanAgtmael: Whereas I'm like, you cannot talk to me while I'm driving because I can only
Anna VanAgtmael: I'm just very can't multitask. But that's helped
Anna VanAgtmael: so much, especially with parking. You know, sometimes you
Anna VanAgtmael: just can't find a spot and then it's on them. We just get to get
Anna VanAgtmael: out and they'll figure it out. So, Yeah. They took you off, figure and
Joanne Lockwood: park it and pick you up later. I I got it. Yeah. And I also
Anna VanAgtmael: had had it was my birthday that day, and I'd also had quite a
Anna VanAgtmael: few drinks. And we're usually, like, have someone
Anna VanAgtmael: designated to drive us, and then the other 2 will fuck off a bit. But
Anna VanAgtmael: I also had the epiphany in the morning of, like, I'm not gonna drink on
Anna VanAgtmael: a retreat ever. I'm responsible for these people's safety,
Anna VanAgtmael: and I really wanted to be sober when the car was just
Anna VanAgtmael: sliding back down the hill. I just was like, none of this is fun for
Anna VanAgtmael: me. So, yeah, those were, I guess, the biggest, most
Anna VanAgtmael: terrifying travel story I have. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I ended up I I gave up drinking 3 years ago. I spent too much
Joanne Lockwood: of my life with alcohol controlling it. And I think part of my
Joanne Lockwood: my journey was to say, hang on a minute. I wanna do this raw.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Real me. Not not not induce or comatose me
Joanne Lockwood: just to take responsibility for everything I do and say, yeah, it's just got to
Joanne Lockwood: that point in my life where I thought I've drank too much. Now's the time
Joanne Lockwood: to start. Yeah. Yeah. I, I've never been one that really has
Anna VanAgtmael: strength to excess ever a lot, like, in large
Anna VanAgtmael: periods of time, but I am I'm now 40. And,
Anna VanAgtmael: just having one cocktail just almost ruins me for the
Anna VanAgtmael: next day. Like, I just sleep terribly. And
Anna VanAgtmael: then I'm just lethargic and kinda just don't feel well the next day.
Anna VanAgtmael: And so I, I I rarely
Anna VanAgtmael: have a drink. Oh, another friend of mine that's also a yoga teacher. We always
Anna VanAgtmael: talk about, like, radical sobriety is when you start
Anna VanAgtmael: to, like, truly, like, love yourself and you're okay with all of your thoughts and
Anna VanAgtmael: you're okay with not dimming down any of your joy or, making
Anna VanAgtmael: any of the pain, you know, easier. It's just like being a
Anna VanAgtmael: real human being about all of your experiences and it and experiences
Anna VanAgtmael: in them fully. So, yeah, that's kinda been
Anna VanAgtmael: my journey in the last couple of years. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: The radical surprise. I think the side of that to me that I've I've recognized
Joanne Lockwood: is that, actually, I don't wanna be here. I wanna go
Joanne Lockwood: home. I've had enough. You know? It's it's nice, and I don't feel guilty about
Joanne Lockwood: it. It's I don't feel that. Or someone invites me, and I go, to be
Joanne Lockwood: honest, I don't want it. It's okay. I don't want it. Really. I don't
Joanne Lockwood: want it. I appreciate you in life enough. Good for you. I don't I don't
Joanne Lockwood: wanna come along and watch everybody else get drunk and then there you go. No.
Joanne Lockwood: This is boring. So Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not that I
Joanne Lockwood: wanna exclude myself from these occasions. I just think, when you see
Joanne Lockwood: it sober, you think, what was I ever doing here? I was the one that
Joanne Lockwood: was at the end of the night, I remember being in, Melbourne,
Joanne Lockwood: Australia for speaking at a conference. And I was with a a
Joanne Lockwood: friend of mine, and we were well known for burning whatever oil
Joanne Lockwood: we could find at whatever time of night. And the bar shut, we found
Joanne Lockwood: another bar. And then and then we said, oh, look. We want another drink. So
Joanne Lockwood: we found a gas station that sold beer. We
Joanne Lockwood: went and bought beer in this gas station. We sat on a brick wall and
Joanne Lockwood: just drank beer at, like, 4 o'clock in the morning. I I looked at myself
Joanne Lockwood: and thought, what am I doing? What am I doing? Yeah. I was I think
Joanne Lockwood: I was in Tallinn in in Estonia, and we managed to find
Joanne Lockwood: a a fast food joint that did kebabs at 4 o'clock in the
Joanne Lockwood: morning. They served beer or something. We're in this kebab shop drinking beer. It's
Joanne Lockwood: like, get out of this morning. Why do I do that? Why do
Joanne Lockwood: I do that? Because she could. It was fun. Yeah. It
Anna VanAgtmael: was there. Right? And Yeah. It's sort of once you get into it, you're
Anna VanAgtmael: like, well, why would we stop now? It's sort of that, like,
Anna VanAgtmael: energy. But but I've been enjoying life more now that I've now
Joanne Lockwood: got control over it rather than, on some sort of autopilot or or
Joanne Lockwood: predestined. How how am I gonna feel in the morning? Terrible.
Joanne Lockwood: Now I know I'm gonna wake up in the morning feeling great again. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmael: Nice. So and I how do people get a hold of you?
Joanne Lockwood: You do all these retreats. So, obviously, you've got your own business that goes for
Joanne Lockwood: treats. You then you also an organizer for other people. Yeah. So if you're
Joanne Lockwood: if you're a if you're a budding retreat organizer, how
Joanne Lockwood: do they get ahold of you? Or if you if you wanna just check-in and
Joanne Lockwood: experience one of yours. Yeah. Money making retreats.com,
Anna VanAgtmael: if you wanna just book a quick 30 minute consult, it's free.
Anna VanAgtmael: You'll know immediately if we're a good match or not or if you don't like
Anna VanAgtmael: me. And then retreats that don't stock.com if you wanna go on one of
Anna VanAgtmael: our retreats, but we only have one spot left for you to retreat with us
Anna VanAgtmael: this year. We only have one spot left to Iceland. Italy's sold out and
Anna VanAgtmael: yeah. But we'd love to have you. One more. Iceland's awesome. I
Joanne Lockwood: remember I was in Iceland, 1998,
Joanne Lockwood: 99. I think it was about then. And we stayed in this hostel
Joanne Lockwood: in the middle of nowhere. And I don't know if it if anyone's listening, I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know if you know about Iceland has this culture of sagas. And they have
Joanne Lockwood: all these people from ancient years, and what they used to do is get
Joanne Lockwood: together and tell each other stories, which are sagas with it's like a bit
Joanne Lockwood: like our Robin Hood or whatever, sort of stories.
Joanne Lockwood: Most these places had had a natural hot
Joanne Lockwood: spring Yeah. Where people go and dive into. We were in this
Joanne Lockwood: hostel in the middle of nowhere, and we had loads of whisk loads of vodka.
Joanne Lockwood: We just had bottles everywhere, but I'd load about 30 or 40 of us. And
Joanne Lockwood: so I sit up. There's a hot spring or hot tub outside. So we we
Joanne Lockwood: all piled in it. About 10 of us, all sitting there around the edge
Joanne Lockwood: with our feet into the middle, passing the beer around. And then, someone came
Joanne Lockwood: security guard came flying out and sort of screaming at us. It was a national
Joanne Lockwood: monument. This was the the hot spring
Joanne Lockwood: hot spring associated with one of the leading saga
Joanne Lockwood: aficionados, a guy called Snorri. It's a Snorri's
Joanne Lockwood: hot spring. We didn't speak
Joanne Lockwood: Icelandic and well, not we had a couple of Icelandic friends with us, and it
Joanne Lockwood: was kinda like we all kinda left sheepish and sort of stuck it back in
Joanne Lockwood: there, but we were we were all stark naked in this hot spring. That ain't
Joanne Lockwood: an ancient monument, but Hey. What? They left it unguarded.
Anna VanAgtmael: Gosh. The story. So Iceland's a beautiful country.
Anna VanAgtmael: It is beautiful, and also the middle of nowhere kinda describes the majority
Anna VanAgtmael: of it. It's straight away. I mean, the the the geysers, the,
Joanne Lockwood: the Blue Lagoon, Yeah. These are places. We we even did
Joanne Lockwood: they took us to, the glacier, and then they got the big donuts,
Joanne Lockwood: and we were slide down the glasses on the donuts. Yeah. It was a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of fun for a week, and, we skidooed across the
Joanne Lockwood: glasses. And I remember they said to us, make sure you keep
Joanne Lockwood: in single file because if you're not careful, you could go down a crevasse
Joanne Lockwood: or something Yeah. In the snow. Of course, every time the, the
Joanne Lockwood: guide face the front again, we all spread out trying to overtake
Joanne Lockwood: each. He turned around, and we go, oh, we're back in the middle again. Oh,
Joanne Lockwood: we're back on the outside. And it yeah. And then someone told the story. He
Joanne Lockwood: said, yeah. People actually do fall down crevasses where the the snow is, you
Joanne Lockwood: can't see the can't see the gap. Yeah. We felt lucky to survive
Joanne Lockwood: there. That would have been a serious error, that would.
Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. Lucky. And that it's been absolutely fantastic
Joanne Lockwood: having a chat with you. And, I think we used the effort at least 4
Joanne Lockwood: or 5 times in there, which is a not bad for one of my episodes.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah. No. I really enjoyed you. A lot of fun, and I if I
Joanne Lockwood: I I would definitely look you up. And I've gotta do a retreat sometime, but
Joanne Lockwood: obviously not this year. It would be great. It would be great. Energy to
Anna VanAgtmael: host something like that. So yeah. Well, I'll make sure I
Joanne Lockwood: put all of your links into the, the show notes. And, and if
Joanne Lockwood: anyone wants to get in contact with you, do what I did? Just track you
Joanne Lockwood: down online and say, do you wanna be a guest of my show? And you
Joanne Lockwood: said, hey. Why not? Let's do it. Thank you for having me here. It's
Anna VanAgtmael: really been a pleasure. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for
Joanne Lockwood: lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to
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Joanne Lockwood: vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This
Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return
Joanne Lockwood: with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.