WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:18.705 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of 4 00:00:18.705 --> 00:00:22.405 inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. 5 00:00:23.105 --> 00:00:26.625 Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where 6 00:00:26.625 --> 00:00:30.050 everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're 7 00:00:30.050 --> 00:00:33.649 not alone. Join me as we uncover the 8 00:00:33.649 --> 00:00:37.250 unseen, challenge the status quo, and share 9 00:00:37.250 --> 00:00:41.090 stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive 10 00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:44.905 in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down 11 00:00:44.905 --> 00:00:48.665 after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and 12 00:00:48.665 --> 00:00:52.425 inspire action together. Don't forget, you 13 00:00:52.425 --> 00:00:55.385 can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.385 --> 00:00:57.140 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 15 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.739 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.200 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.115 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion 18 00:01:13.295 --> 00:01:16.755 Bites. And today is episode 19 00:01:16.975 --> 00:01:20.675 154 with the title, from burnout 20 00:01:20.975 --> 00:01:24.729 to brilliance. And I have the absolute honor and privilege 21 00:01:24.729 --> 00:01:28.570 to welcome Emma Parnell. Emma is an l and d 22 00:01:28.570 --> 00:01:32.009 manager dedicated to fostering safe, inclusive 23 00:01:32.009 --> 00:01:35.384 environments where people can thrive and unlocking their 24 00:01:35.384 --> 00:01:39.145 potential to embrace their differences. And when I asked 25 00:01:39.145 --> 00:01:42.445 Emma to describe her superpowers, she said it is her resilience, 26 00:01:43.145 --> 00:01:46.664 and she is inspired by people who have faced their toughest times head 27 00:01:46.664 --> 00:01:50.300 on and won. Hello, Emma. Welcome to the show. 28 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.680 Hi, Joanne. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really delighted to be joining 29 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:58.440 you today. And I'm excited to talk about all the things that I'm 30 00:01:58.440 --> 00:02:01.980 passionate about around learning and development and how we make sure that everybody's 31 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:05.865 included and no one's left out. Even the even the smallest of voices 32 00:02:05.865 --> 00:02:09.705 need to be heard. You're so right. And, you reminded me 33 00:02:09.705 --> 00:02:12.745 when we first came on in the green room that we met tail end of 34 00:02:12.745 --> 00:02:16.125 last year at, at L&D Forum 35 00:02:16.505 --> 00:02:20.079 in, London, if I remember right. That's right. Yeah. 36 00:02:20.219 --> 00:02:23.819 Yeah. It was one of the, connect events held at London 37 00:02:23.819 --> 00:02:27.659 Wall. Yeah. And we got chatting. We got introduced by a mutual colleague, mutual 38 00:02:27.659 --> 00:02:31.335 friend, and, yeah, we got chatting. And one of the really interesting 39 00:02:31.415 --> 00:02:34.555 things I found out about that day and certainly talking to you 40 00:02:34.855 --> 00:02:38.535 is, you know, the drive for inclusion for 41 00:02:38.535 --> 00:02:42.215 everybody. And I've I've certainly seen over my 30 42 00:02:42.215 --> 00:02:45.879 something year career. I can't remember exactly how many 43 00:02:46.019 --> 00:02:49.780 somethings that is, but certainly 30 years. I've seen a lot of changes 44 00:02:49.780 --> 00:02:53.159 in learning and development and a lot of changes in the working environment. 45 00:02:53.459 --> 00:02:57.299 And, you know, it's it's changed an awful lot in terms of 46 00:02:57.299 --> 00:03:01.055 being able to make efforts to include more people 47 00:03:01.195 --> 00:03:04.795 with, you know, differences, be that neurodiversity or 48 00:03:04.795 --> 00:03:08.255 other challenges that might be going on disabilities, etcetera. And 49 00:03:08.715 --> 00:03:12.235 it's interesting that there's I feel there's still some way to go. But 50 00:03:12.235 --> 00:03:16.040 people are generally trying to embrace and trying to 51 00:03:16.040 --> 00:03:19.880 understand what diversity and inclusion really means and how they can 52 00:03:19.880 --> 00:03:23.580 just, you know, make sure that they employ the best of people. You know, particularly 53 00:03:24.040 --> 00:03:27.880 a question that you asked me was what's my superpower. And and I love that 54 00:03:27.880 --> 00:03:31.675 word superpower because I think everybody's got their own 55 00:03:31.675 --> 00:03:35.195 and it's, it's the responsibility of, 56 00:03:35.195 --> 00:03:38.795 child perhaps as well as learning and development and people who 57 00:03:38.795 --> 00:03:42.555 manage people to find out what the superpower is of 58 00:03:42.555 --> 00:03:46.390 the person that they're hiring, because they can surprise you. And 59 00:03:46.390 --> 00:03:50.069 I think that diverse teams, which is not a 60 00:03:50.069 --> 00:03:53.290 new concept, but it's something that's still so massively important. 61 00:03:53.590 --> 00:03:56.170 Diverse teams where you have people with different 62 00:03:57.155 --> 00:04:00.755 different approaches to things. And you know, you'll 63 00:04:00.755 --> 00:04:04.515 have, in most teams you have your, your sort of louder people, I 64 00:04:04.515 --> 00:04:08.195 guess, people who are very confident, want to talk first. And then you'll have 65 00:04:08.195 --> 00:04:11.950 those who might be particularly quiet, but it's 66 00:04:11.950 --> 00:04:14.850 actually the quieter ones that you really, as a manager, 67 00:04:16.190 --> 00:04:19.810 need to dig down and get to know because quietness 68 00:04:19.870 --> 00:04:23.310 doesn't mean that somebody hasn't got something to contribute. You know, 69 00:04:23.310 --> 00:04:27.115 quietness can be in traverse, but it can also just be 70 00:04:27.115 --> 00:04:30.955 contemplated. Some people think before they speak, and need to hear what 71 00:04:30.955 --> 00:04:34.795 everybody else is saying before they talk. And then, you know, and sometimes you 72 00:04:34.795 --> 00:04:38.475 find that people come out with things that are absolute genius, that you hadn't 73 00:04:38.475 --> 00:04:42.139 thought about yourself. So for all of those 74 00:04:42.139 --> 00:04:45.919 reasons, inclusion is so important and dive and diversity. 75 00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:50.300 So I really champion that and I, I love to see it happen in the 76 00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:54.135 workplace. I love to see it when people come out 77 00:04:54.135 --> 00:04:56.875 with surprises. And I also think that 78 00:04:57.895 --> 00:05:01.435 by better, better ways to embrace 79 00:05:01.735 --> 00:05:04.955 inclusion means that people are more willing to talk about 80 00:05:05.095 --> 00:05:08.750 themselves. And, you know, I can give you a really nice example of this, I 81 00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:12.290 think, where I worked previously. I worked with a young lady 82 00:05:12.350 --> 00:05:16.110 who had bipolar and there were days 83 00:05:16.110 --> 00:05:19.170 when it was very difficult for her, and very challenging. 84 00:05:20.035 --> 00:05:22.535 And she may have experienced, you know, emotion, 85 00:05:23.795 --> 00:05:27.395 or frustration. And she never 86 00:05:27.395 --> 00:05:31.095 never really talked much about that side of herself, 87 00:05:31.235 --> 00:05:34.850 which is totally her rights. But actually when she did say 88 00:05:34.850 --> 00:05:38.370 something, people around her just 89 00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:42.130 went, okay. No, you know, and it was like, it's not, 90 00:05:42.130 --> 00:05:45.695 it's not an issue. It's not a problem. I had a conversation with her. I 91 00:05:45.695 --> 00:05:49.455 wasn't her direct manager, but I had a conversation with her. And she said, she 92 00:05:49.455 --> 00:05:52.815 said, oh, I'm really sorry. You know, it's just one of those days. And I 93 00:05:52.815 --> 00:05:56.514 said, so you don't need to apologize. You don't need to apologize 94 00:05:56.575 --> 00:06:00.350 for being you. It's okay. And she actually got 95 00:06:00.350 --> 00:06:04.190 quite emotional. She said, nobody said that to me before. And, you know, 96 00:06:04.190 --> 00:06:08.030 her superpower is that she's really smart at what she does. She's 97 00:06:08.030 --> 00:06:11.790 very, very good at what she does for a living. And, yeah, as part 98 00:06:11.790 --> 00:06:15.315 of learning and development, she helped create such engaging 99 00:06:15.455 --> 00:06:18.995 content for people because she's very, very clever, 100 00:06:19.854 --> 00:06:23.455 at creating animations and graphics and things that 101 00:06:23.455 --> 00:06:27.055 just pop out on the screen that people wouldn't expect and 102 00:06:27.055 --> 00:06:30.340 just really engage people. And she 103 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.560 never never really accepted the compliments very well or or 104 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:38.400 realized how good she was at it, but people like her. And there are 105 00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:42.159 so many people like her who are who are generally quite quiet and 106 00:06:42.159 --> 00:06:45.895 modern modest, but actually needs to be championed sometimes 107 00:06:46.035 --> 00:06:49.395 because they're they're exceptional at what they do. And that's 108 00:06:49.395 --> 00:06:52.995 for me, a really great example, I think, of of 109 00:06:52.995 --> 00:06:56.675 diversity and inclusion is letting someone know that 110 00:06:56.675 --> 00:07:00.479 it, whatever you might be going through, it's okay. It's 111 00:07:00.479 --> 00:07:04.180 not a problem. Yeah. I completely 112 00:07:04.479 --> 00:07:08.000 get what you're saying there. I mean, if you oh, where are we now? We're 113 00:07:08.080 --> 00:07:11.919 by the beginning of 2025 or tail end of January 2025, sort of 114 00:07:11.919 --> 00:07:15.165 recording this. You look at what's going on in the media, 115 00:07:15.625 --> 00:07:18.765 the world. If you've discussed spend an hour on LinkedIn, 116 00:07:19.225 --> 00:07:22.525 there's a whole load of pushback against EDI, 117 00:07:22.745 --> 00:07:26.525 DNI initiatives. It's got a bad name. 118 00:07:27.479 --> 00:07:31.160 Oh, you've just given some really good examples where DEI makes sense, how it 119 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:34.599 helps. How has it gone wrong? You know, what should people I because I talk 120 00:07:34.599 --> 00:07:38.360 about positive people experiences. It's not about the DEI. How 121 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:41.560 can I create a virus where people can thrive? So how do we how do 122 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.294 we get back to that so we're not caught up on these acronyms and the 123 00:07:45.294 --> 00:07:49.135 the negativity that's going around it. I think I think 124 00:07:49.135 --> 00:07:52.915 one of the ways is about understanding because I think that 125 00:07:53.854 --> 00:07:57.440 organizations know that diversity, equity and inclusion 126 00:07:57.580 --> 00:08:01.180 is something they need to be aware of. And there'll be plenty of 127 00:08:01.180 --> 00:08:05.020 people who will dive into that and really delve into what 128 00:08:05.020 --> 00:08:08.800 it means, but whether enough people do, I'm not sure. 129 00:08:09.335 --> 00:08:13.175 So I think there's a danger that people may want to 130 00:08:13.175 --> 00:08:16.235 create a a little bit of a tick box exercise 131 00:08:16.855 --> 00:08:20.455 around it to be so that they can be seen or can 132 00:08:20.455 --> 00:08:24.155 report that they, yes, they are, you know, they 133 00:08:25.289 --> 00:08:29.129 promote it and they recruit with that in mind. But I 134 00:08:29.129 --> 00:08:32.750 think a better understanding of it 135 00:08:32.890 --> 00:08:36.409 means it becomes more natural rather than a thing 136 00:08:36.409 --> 00:08:39.470 people have to do. And I think 137 00:08:40.855 --> 00:08:42.714 when people are told you must, 138 00:08:44.535 --> 00:08:47.915 include this in your process, in your policies, etcetera. 139 00:08:49.495 --> 00:08:52.855 Most people will agree quite happily to do it, but whether they'll really 140 00:08:52.855 --> 00:08:56.660 understand why is, is the difference. So one of the 141 00:08:56.660 --> 00:09:00.200 things that I think would be amazing in the future 142 00:09:00.420 --> 00:09:03.560 is if it was part of an organization's DNA 143 00:09:05.060 --> 00:09:08.900 and not, don't forget, we need to have a policy 144 00:09:08.900 --> 00:09:12.315 on It we wanna see more of 145 00:09:12.535 --> 00:09:16.375 this really natural process so 146 00:09:16.375 --> 00:09:20.154 that so that nobody has to ask the questions of an organization. 147 00:09:20.535 --> 00:09:23.275 Do you include people? Are you inclusive? 148 00:09:24.180 --> 00:09:27.860 And how are you inclusive? What does that mean to you? So 149 00:09:27.860 --> 00:09:31.540 this it's, it's a deeper understanding, I think, that means that people will think 150 00:09:31.540 --> 00:09:35.000 more naturally about it. And it comes back into 151 00:09:35.380 --> 00:09:38.884 a space where it doesn't 152 00:09:39.185 --> 00:09:42.785 need to be an issue or a challenge. It's 153 00:09:42.785 --> 00:09:46.464 just, you know, everybody's different. I mean, the one thing I 154 00:09:46.464 --> 00:09:50.250 think that's caught the interest me certainly around, around 155 00:09:50.250 --> 00:09:54.090 all of this is that actually, we are all different and have been since 156 00:09:54.090 --> 00:09:57.610 the dawn of time. So why is it such a 157 00:09:57.610 --> 00:10:01.390 problem for people to 158 00:10:01.450 --> 00:10:04.825 perhaps get jobs, you know? Because 159 00:10:06.005 --> 00:10:09.765 we are all different. Some differences are maybe more 160 00:10:09.765 --> 00:10:13.525 obvious than others, more stand out than others, but we are 161 00:10:13.525 --> 00:10:17.320 all different. So why don't we just accept that 162 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:21.160 and get on with life and go, yeah, everybody is different. 163 00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:24.920 And that's great because what sort of world would we be in if 164 00:10:24.920 --> 00:10:28.300 we were all the same? So any difference 165 00:10:29.404 --> 00:10:33.245 is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. Yeah. Maybe 166 00:10:33.245 --> 00:10:37.084 that's a little bit, you know, could you cope? Yeah. No. I I think I 167 00:10:37.084 --> 00:10:40.305 think that's the the root of it. And sometimes we get hung up 168 00:10:41.005 --> 00:10:44.730 on 0 sum games or I'm 169 00:10:44.730 --> 00:10:48.330 getting more than you are. It it's and people may be feeling more 170 00:10:48.490 --> 00:10:52.250 yeah. People who are used to privilege feeling marginalized because they're not getting the leg 171 00:10:52.250 --> 00:10:55.770 up that people who are marginalized get. And, yeah, that's not the, 172 00:10:56.010 --> 00:10:59.845 fundamental purpose of equity. It's about bringing people up, not 173 00:10:59.845 --> 00:11:03.605 pulling people down. So you're you're in a l and d learning development 174 00:11:03.605 --> 00:11:07.445 role. As you're talking, I was I was thinking about things like 175 00:11:07.445 --> 00:11:11.220 Hertzberg's 2 factor theory where we've got the hygiene factors, our 176 00:11:11.220 --> 00:11:14.820 motivational factors. But in the middle of that, performance or and the 177 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:18.340 skills and having the tools in order to perform in that job, the 178 00:11:18.340 --> 00:11:22.100 capability, if you like. So how do how does how do you as a as 179 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:25.560 a l and d professional develop processes, content, 180 00:11:26.035 --> 00:11:29.875 tracking, and metrics, data, whatever it is, to ensure that we're being person 181 00:11:29.875 --> 00:11:32.055 centric enough to develop 182 00:11:33.235 --> 00:11:36.915 learning and enhance skills in an inclusive way? 183 00:11:36.915 --> 00:11:40.720 Yes. Yes. An interesting question, Annie. And it's quite a tough one because when 184 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.399 you're when you're designing training content, for example, you 185 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:48.079 have as an l and d person, you've got got a lot of 186 00:11:48.079 --> 00:11:51.759 factors to consider, actually. So you could be could be designing a 187 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:55.375 piece of content because it's part of organizational strategy. 188 00:11:55.515 --> 00:11:58.955 You could be doing it because there's, you know, things going wrong in, in the 189 00:11:58.955 --> 00:12:02.495 workplace that need retraining. People need to learn about things. 190 00:12:03.115 --> 00:12:06.714 And, you can be to some degree, sometimes a 191 00:12:06.714 --> 00:12:10.450 little limited on how engage not 192 00:12:10.450 --> 00:12:14.210 engaging, but how wide ranging you can be with a piece of 193 00:12:14.210 --> 00:12:17.970 content that you're creating. But I think what you must always do as a 194 00:12:17.970 --> 00:12:21.810 creator of training is put yourself in the position of the 195 00:12:21.810 --> 00:12:25.075 learner. So forget 196 00:12:25.455 --> 00:12:28.735 what you know is almost forget what you know as an L and D professional 197 00:12:28.735 --> 00:12:32.335 and go, right. If I'm learning this, what do I need to 198 00:12:32.335 --> 00:12:35.635 know, and what's the best way for me to know that? And 199 00:12:36.670 --> 00:12:39.970 that kind of leads you to create content 200 00:12:40.670 --> 00:12:44.190 that is, bit more 201 00:12:44.190 --> 00:12:47.790 engaging and as you are more human centered. And, you know, a lot of the 202 00:12:47.790 --> 00:12:51.545 time you can take scenario, real scenarios 203 00:12:51.845 --> 00:12:55.144 that people have been in. And that helps 204 00:12:55.204 --> 00:12:58.805 because that then makes the training more 205 00:12:58.805 --> 00:13:02.345 relatable. Yeah. And there are other aspects that you can, 206 00:13:03.020 --> 00:13:06.620 you can always be aware of such as, you know, does the 207 00:13:06.620 --> 00:13:10.220 software that you're using to create this training, does it have, 208 00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:14.540 accessibility standards attached to it so that we know that, you 209 00:13:14.540 --> 00:13:18.155 know, for example, if somebody might be short short of sight or 210 00:13:18.155 --> 00:13:21.915 can't hear properly, you know, will they be included in this 211 00:13:21.915 --> 00:13:25.755 training? But but also, as I've said, I think 212 00:13:25.755 --> 00:13:29.595 the human side of things. So if I give you an example, so if 213 00:13:29.595 --> 00:13:33.060 we're creating some training on mental health and well-being, for 214 00:13:33.060 --> 00:13:36.360 example, what really hits home for people is when somebody, 215 00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:40.920 is on camera and they talk about their own personal experience 216 00:13:41.060 --> 00:13:44.440 of something, and that can make a huge difference. 217 00:13:45.285 --> 00:13:48.885 So I think there's, you know, there's a variety of ways you can approach it. 218 00:13:48.885 --> 00:13:52.645 But I've, I've, you know, I believe really that the scenario based training and 219 00:13:52.645 --> 00:13:56.325 the human centered stuff, where you've got somebody on camera who talks about 220 00:13:56.325 --> 00:13:59.940 it, who's an expert in it, for example, or has 221 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:03.780 experienced it. That's that's worth its weight in gold. 222 00:14:03.780 --> 00:14:07.480 Yeah. I oversample that completely because when I when I deliver training 223 00:14:07.540 --> 00:14:11.320 and develop my training materials, I'm very focused on anecdotes 224 00:14:11.540 --> 00:14:15.175 and stories that bring bring the example to life. And I've got a 225 00:14:15.175 --> 00:14:18.775 whole repertoire of examples that been in the news over the last 226 00:14:18.775 --> 00:14:22.455 5, 10 years. And, you know, it's sometimes called news jacking where you what you're 227 00:14:22.455 --> 00:14:26.069 doing is you're taking something out of the news of the moment and putting it 228 00:14:26.069 --> 00:14:29.690 in because it makes it really live because everyone's seen in the news. It's topical. 229 00:14:29.990 --> 00:14:33.509 Mhmm. What's going on at the moment, which means it's it really is relatable. Or 230 00:14:33.509 --> 00:14:37.269 telling the story about something that happened as if it was only yesterday and 231 00:14:37.269 --> 00:14:40.995 bringing it to life again. And people I I've 232 00:14:40.995 --> 00:14:44.214 I've really noticed that people really resonate with that. It also means 233 00:14:44.995 --> 00:14:48.755 that you're not you're not necessarily giving an opinion on something. You're 234 00:14:48.755 --> 00:14:52.274 reporting a scenario and getting people to analyze that 235 00:14:52.274 --> 00:14:55.680 themselves and come up with their own thoughts and conclusions around 236 00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:59.200 it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's, that's the power in 237 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.960 it is that rather than just telling people how to think, 238 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:06.400 what to think, when to think it, you just empower 239 00:15:06.400 --> 00:15:09.915 them to explore how they feel about it. 240 00:15:09.915 --> 00:15:13.055 So, you know, some scenario based or some, 241 00:15:13.595 --> 00:15:16.795 people that we get on video, some of what they talk about can be really 242 00:15:16.795 --> 00:15:20.555 emotional, but I love that because that get that 243 00:15:20.555 --> 00:15:24.370 gets into people. And they go, oh, okay. I, I can 244 00:15:24.370 --> 00:15:27.830 either empathize with this or sympathize or understand 245 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:31.730 better. And it allows people to then, you know, question 246 00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:35.464 themselves and go, what can I do differently then? What am I 247 00:15:35.464 --> 00:15:39.144 learning from this experience? What can I do differently to 248 00:15:39.144 --> 00:15:42.985 make it better next time? And those 249 00:15:42.985 --> 00:15:46.285 to me are the really the golden nuggets of learning is 250 00:15:46.505 --> 00:15:49.485 somebody being able to understand something resonates, 251 00:15:50.139 --> 00:15:53.980 and then you can take that back into your job, into your 252 00:15:53.980 --> 00:15:57.760 daily life, into your home life, even, you know, and actually 253 00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:02.060 do something differently. Behavioral change, that there's the 254 00:16:02.060 --> 00:16:05.584 words. So in l and d behavioral change, and that's what 255 00:16:05.725 --> 00:16:09.245 most organizations want from a learning 256 00:16:09.245 --> 00:16:12.225 experience is behavioral change. 257 00:16:13.084 --> 00:16:16.845 So, and particularly around this subject area of 258 00:16:16.845 --> 00:16:20.680 diversity and inclusion, behavioral change. We want people 259 00:16:20.680 --> 00:16:24.140 to do something differently, but we need people to understand 260 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.880 why they want to do it differently. You can't just tell 261 00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:31.425 someone, I want you to do that differently. They need to 262 00:16:31.425 --> 00:16:34.485 feel inside of them that they know why 263 00:16:35.265 --> 00:16:39.045 and that the outcomes will be better. 264 00:16:39.345 --> 00:16:43.185 And that that that's the real sort of heart of 265 00:16:43.185 --> 00:16:46.550 it, I think. Yeah. That why is so important 266 00:16:46.550 --> 00:16:50.230 because if you're not careful, what happens is you 267 00:16:50.230 --> 00:16:53.990 tell them the why. Yeah. And that doesn't land because their 268 00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:57.750 why is different. So you have to get people to think about what their why 269 00:16:57.750 --> 00:17:01.525 is. Why why do I care? Why does it bother me? Why 270 00:17:01.525 --> 00:17:05.204 am I here? What am I doing? Because if you don't if you don't frack 271 00:17:05.204 --> 00:17:08.964 their why, they'll never act, think, or feel differently 272 00:17:08.964 --> 00:17:12.565 as a result, will they? They'll just they won't move from a to b. They'll 273 00:17:12.565 --> 00:17:16.190 just stay where they were because they didn't resonate. Yeah. Completely agree. And I 274 00:17:16.190 --> 00:17:19.810 think that, you know, people who are responsible 275 00:17:20.270 --> 00:17:23.950 for behavioral change in their organizations need to make sure 276 00:17:23.950 --> 00:17:27.710 that the training that's delivered in whatever format that might be, whether that's 277 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:31.405 in a classroom, face to face, online, e learning, 278 00:17:31.405 --> 00:17:34.925 podcast, whatever it might be, needs, yeah, it needs to 279 00:17:34.925 --> 00:17:38.765 resonate and it needs to land. And that's how 280 00:17:38.765 --> 00:17:42.605 you'll see behavioral change in organisations. Yeah. I'm also 281 00:17:42.605 --> 00:17:46.380 drawn to the, the other Alan d mantra around the 282 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.740 Aristotle's rhetoric, ethos, logos, and pathos. We've gotta 283 00:17:50.040 --> 00:17:53.480 tick those boxes, the other models of persuasion where we're we're 284 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.160 focusing on the emotional. That's also the logical and the ethical side. We've 285 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:00.924 gotta try and balance that as well. Yeah. Absolutely. And those things 286 00:18:00.924 --> 00:18:04.385 are all very valid and and are all part of 287 00:18:04.684 --> 00:18:08.525 what organizations have to go through, particularly where there 288 00:18:08.525 --> 00:18:12.365 is legislation that governs, you know, in the the Equality Act, 289 00:18:12.365 --> 00:18:15.940 you have protected characteristics. So as soon as any form of 290 00:18:15.940 --> 00:18:19.460 compliance or legality comes into it, it kind of gives it a 291 00:18:19.460 --> 00:18:23.299 different spin for organizations sometimes, I think, because they go, right. Okay. I need to 292 00:18:23.299 --> 00:18:26.900 be really careful. I need to make sure there's a policy. Yes, you do. 293 00:18:26.900 --> 00:18:30.415 And I need to make sure that there's learning. Yes, you do. 294 00:18:30.415 --> 00:18:33.615 But that's and that's where it goes back to what I think we've just said 295 00:18:33.615 --> 00:18:37.455 about what type of learning. You know, what are you what are you gonna 296 00:18:37.455 --> 00:18:41.215 do here? Are you gonna tick a box? Are you gonna change behaviors? Yeah. 297 00:18:41.215 --> 00:18:44.490 That that's part of the problem sometimes is, you know, there's no why, a tote 298 00:18:44.570 --> 00:18:48.190 associated with the policy. The policy is almost like a statement of fact. 299 00:18:48.330 --> 00:18:51.550 The equality act statement of fact, employment law statement of fact. 300 00:18:52.809 --> 00:18:56.490 Yes. Some people get the why, but a lot of people go, oh, policy, 301 00:18:56.490 --> 00:18:59.655 process, procedures. You're boring. 302 00:19:00.235 --> 00:19:03.595 Yeah. What's in it for me? What do I care? And then that's when you 303 00:19:03.595 --> 00:19:07.215 have to bring in the the pathos, the emotional connection, or 304 00:19:07.755 --> 00:19:10.575 beat them with a stick around the business case, the, you know, the logical. 305 00:19:11.810 --> 00:19:15.650 Yeah. I agree. And I think that I can give you another example of I 306 00:19:15.650 --> 00:19:19.330 used to create economic crime training, and that's all 307 00:19:19.330 --> 00:19:23.010 regulation, legislation, and and everybody knows about 308 00:19:23.010 --> 00:19:26.684 things, for example, like anti money laundering. But what I wanted to do when 309 00:19:26.684 --> 00:19:30.205 I created training around that topic, albeit that it was 310 00:19:30.205 --> 00:19:33.725 purely for compliance reasons, I wanted to 311 00:19:33.725 --> 00:19:37.565 draw the learner in to say, to not approach 312 00:19:37.565 --> 00:19:41.390 it as, oh, I've been told by my organization, I've 313 00:19:41.390 --> 00:19:44.770 gotta do this. Every 12 months, we tick a box and we're done. 314 00:19:45.310 --> 00:19:49.070 I wanted to bring some emotion and human 315 00:19:49.070 --> 00:19:52.850 behavior into the topic of anti money laundering. 316 00:19:53.475 --> 00:19:56.855 So I opened the course with a narrative 317 00:19:58.035 --> 00:20:01.475 that, that says, money 318 00:20:01.475 --> 00:20:03.655 laundering is not about money. 319 00:20:05.075 --> 00:20:08.215 It's actually about people, victims of crime. 320 00:20:09.370 --> 00:20:12.970 And that could be people who've been trafficked, been 321 00:20:12.970 --> 00:20:16.730 abused, vulnerable people that have been taken advantage of, and 322 00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:20.570 people who have been defrauded of money, and this could be 323 00:20:20.570 --> 00:20:24.105 any one of us. And I 324 00:20:24.105 --> 00:20:27.705 really wanted that message to be really strong because I wanted the 325 00:20:27.705 --> 00:20:31.485 learner to go, okay. Maybe I hadn't thought about it like that. 326 00:20:31.945 --> 00:20:35.785 So when you tell the learner that in their job within, you know, if 327 00:20:35.785 --> 00:20:39.540 they're working in a bank, for example, and they're front line, so they're facing 328 00:20:39.540 --> 00:20:42.680 customers. When you tell them that actually 329 00:20:43.300 --> 00:20:46.900 that person standing in front of you could be a victim of 330 00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:49.720 crime, they could be being forced into doing something. 331 00:20:51.225 --> 00:20:53.805 And that can happen to absolutely anybody. 332 00:20:54.825 --> 00:20:58.425 Then you get a different response from people. People go, oh, 333 00:20:58.425 --> 00:21:02.045 okay. Now I'm getting it. Now I'm understanding 334 00:21:02.425 --> 00:21:05.940 actually why this is so important. And I got a bit of feedback 335 00:21:06.019 --> 00:21:09.860 from a learner. And what and what they wrote on 336 00:21:09.860 --> 00:21:13.159 the feedback was, now I understand my role in this. 337 00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:17.539 And for me, that was a win. That was a total win because that's as 338 00:21:17.539 --> 00:21:21.325 an L and D professional, that's what you want. You want people to go, 339 00:21:21.325 --> 00:21:25.165 oh, okay. Get it. And see it differently because 340 00:21:25.165 --> 00:21:28.765 the behavior changes. And for me, that was that was a that was a 341 00:21:28.765 --> 00:21:32.525 great day because that's what you're aiming for. I always get a 342 00:21:32.525 --> 00:21:36.220 huge amount of satisfaction end of session wrap up, you know, the 343 00:21:36.220 --> 00:21:39.980 feedback session, the, the what have I learned? What am I gonna do now? 344 00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:43.100 You know, go around the room and say, what's the one thing you're gonna take 345 00:21:43.100 --> 00:21:46.540 away from today? And you hear all the things that you've been thinking that we're 346 00:21:46.540 --> 00:21:50.355 gonna resonate with. They're all picking them out. Brilliant. I've done 347 00:21:50.355 --> 00:21:53.715 my job because you're actually repeating back to me what I thought was the key 348 00:21:53.715 --> 00:21:57.475 elements of this, and you've you've got it. And that's and also 349 00:21:57.475 --> 00:22:01.235 you're hearing it as social proof because you hear from your colleagues as well. That 350 00:22:01.235 --> 00:22:04.880 stops being me telling you and they're telling each other and becomes more real 351 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:08.480 then, doesn't it? Yeah. I very much so. It almost it gives 352 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.160 gravitas or kudos to what you've just done. Because for so much of what you 353 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.955 do in learning and development, sometimes it can be, that, okay, 354 00:22:15.955 --> 00:22:18.774 this is a course I've got put together and I've got to roll it out 355 00:22:18.835 --> 00:22:22.515 and get it done. And sometimes there, you know, that is the case. And it 356 00:22:22.515 --> 00:22:25.955 might be that actually you are rolling out a piece of learning and 357 00:22:25.955 --> 00:22:29.800 development that is going across an entire organization, which could 358 00:22:29.800 --> 00:22:33.420 be a huge organization. It could be 5,000 people 359 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.320 who are all getting the same message at the same time, on 360 00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:40.840 particular subject area. But it should never stop you 361 00:22:40.840 --> 00:22:44.385 from just trying to bring in that human center every 362 00:22:44.385 --> 00:22:47.985 time, because that is the way to get people to 363 00:22:47.985 --> 00:22:51.745 shift their mindset. So that is my 364 00:22:51.745 --> 00:22:55.585 approach. And I wouldn't call it a mantra because it's too leopardy for a 365 00:22:55.585 --> 00:22:59.265 mantra, but it is my approach. It it's, it's about drawing people 366 00:22:59.265 --> 00:23:03.049 in Because as as a person who takes a lot of 367 00:23:03.049 --> 00:23:06.730 time and effort to create training, you just 368 00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:10.030 do want to want people to give you feedback, and you do want to know 369 00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:14.115 that what you're doing is making a difference. Yeah. 370 00:23:14.115 --> 00:23:17.255 So I I suppose in my early days of of delivering 371 00:23:17.635 --> 00:23:21.475 training, you you don't realize or or you just maybe not focusing on 372 00:23:21.475 --> 00:23:25.315 it. But I've now come to realize that the danger is when 373 00:23:25.315 --> 00:23:28.890 people get up off their chairs and they leave the room, half of what 374 00:23:28.890 --> 00:23:32.250 you've given them is gets left on the desk. They don't take it with them 375 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:35.450 or at worst if the phone rings. They they they kind of rush for a 376 00:23:35.450 --> 00:23:39.290 train. By the time they've done the next thing, the previous 4 377 00:23:39.290 --> 00:23:42.985 hours have have almost vanished from their thought process. So it's it's 378 00:23:42.985 --> 00:23:46.345 really trying to create stuff that really does stick, isn't it? That's where the little 379 00:23:46.345 --> 00:23:50.024 anecdotes and the stories. They may not remember the detail, but they'll remember that 380 00:23:50.024 --> 00:23:53.784 story for days or weeks, hopefully years afterwards. Yeah. Because they remember how 381 00:23:53.784 --> 00:23:57.340 they felt. And that's the keyword. How did they feel? 382 00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:01.720 Yeah. If something makes you feel something, as you say, you won't necessarily 383 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.480 remember all the details, but you'll remember that feeling. And 384 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.240 that's that's great. Yeah. I also get a lot of satisfaction by if 385 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:13.035 I can train an entire cohort of, you know, all of the senior leadership 386 00:24:13.035 --> 00:24:16.235 team, all of the the SLT, whatever it may be. Then even if it's not 387 00:24:16.235 --> 00:24:19.855 in the same session, you then given them shared language, shared stories. 388 00:24:20.395 --> 00:24:23.915 And they can then repeat stuff without having to explain stuff to each other. They 389 00:24:23.915 --> 00:24:27.600 can just say, ah, remember the story. Yeah. Yeah. We remember that. And 390 00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:31.040 suddenly, the whole culture of the organization is 391 00:24:31.040 --> 00:24:34.880 embedded with these these fables, if you like, or these sagas 392 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:38.525 that they've learned together. And it becomes a new shared language they can use. And 393 00:24:38.525 --> 00:24:41.885 I think that's really powerful as well because it embeds into the culture and that's 394 00:24:41.885 --> 00:24:45.725 where the real change happens, doesn't it? Yeah. I completely agree. And I think that 395 00:24:45.725 --> 00:24:49.325 what's so important about training at a senior leadership level is 396 00:24:49.325 --> 00:24:53.039 that the filtering down. And I don't know that a lot of 397 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.660 that happens all of the time because there is a, there is 398 00:24:57.679 --> 00:25:01.200 a, there is a challenge that I see a lot, particularly when you apply for 399 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.095 jobs. You see a lot of, a lot of, 400 00:25:04.735 --> 00:25:07.875 recruited recruitment mentioning learning culture. 401 00:25:08.655 --> 00:25:11.855