WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.780 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:07.200 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne 3 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:10.960 Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart 4 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:14.099 of inclusion, belonging, and societal 5 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:18.125 transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create 6 00:00:18.125 --> 00:00:21.485 a world where everyone not only belongs but 7 00:00:21.485 --> 00:00:25.325 thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we 8 00:00:25.325 --> 00:00:28.704 uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, 9 00:00:29.085 --> 00:00:32.689 and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready 10 00:00:33.150 --> 00:00:36.750 to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or 11 00:00:36.750 --> 00:00:40.370 winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, 12 00:00:40.830 --> 00:00:44.385 and inspire action together. Don't forget, 13 00:00:44.845 --> 00:00:48.305 you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 14 00:00:51.645 --> 00:00:55.265 to share your insights or to join me on the show. 15 00:00:56.040 --> 00:00:59.719 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 16 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.260 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 17 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.580 And today is episode 155 18 00:01:08.440 --> 00:01:11.865 with the title, Healthcare with a Heart. 19 00:01:12.325 --> 00:01:15.685 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Susie 20 00:01:15.685 --> 00:01:19.285 Green. Susie is the cofounder and co director of Anne 21 00:01:19.285 --> 00:01:22.985 Health, dedicated to providing compassionate, accessible 22 00:01:23.045 --> 00:01:26.850 health care for trans people of all ages. And when I 23 00:01:26.850 --> 00:01:30.550 asked Susie to describe her superpower, she said that it is empowering 24 00:01:30.690 --> 00:01:33.830 trans kids and their families with care, resilience, 25 00:01:34.530 --> 00:01:38.104 and love. Hello, Susie. Welcome to the show. 26 00:01:38.104 --> 00:01:41.784 Lovely to be here, and, good morning. Yeah. I've been looking 27 00:01:41.784 --> 00:01:45.625 forward to this. We we Chesed, I think, on LinkedIn probably 6 months 28 00:01:45.625 --> 00:01:48.445 ago, then we met at the Trans of the City Awards night, 29 00:01:49.384 --> 00:01:53.190 back in November on, Trans Day of remembrance 30 00:01:53.250 --> 00:01:56.610 or no. Trans AF Wish of Visibility, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 31 00:01:56.610 --> 00:01:59.890 And, yeah, I'm I've I've been a huge fan of the work you've done. I've 32 00:01:59.890 --> 00:02:03.570 I've come across you and your organizations in in over the 33 00:02:03.570 --> 00:02:07.055 years. So it's a real honor. So you've been at the 34 00:02:07.055 --> 00:02:10.414 forefront, as I probably just implied, of trans health care and 35 00:02:10.414 --> 00:02:13.955 supporting people for years. So what first inspired you 36 00:02:14.655 --> 00:02:18.435 to do this? Well, it was having a trans kid. And 37 00:02:18.974 --> 00:02:22.580 before I knew I had 38 00:02:22.580 --> 00:02:26.100 a trans kid, I knew nothing about trans 39 00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:29.720 rights, trans kids, trans people in general. I was, 40 00:02:30.180 --> 00:02:32.920 you know, completely oblivious and knew nothing. 41 00:02:34.395 --> 00:02:38.155 But when my daughter told me that god 42 00:02:38.155 --> 00:02:41.535 had made a mistake and and she should have been a girl 43 00:02:42.475 --> 00:02:45.995 at 4 years old, I had to learn, and I had to 44 00:02:45.995 --> 00:02:49.770 learn quickly because I needed to be there to 45 00:02:49.770 --> 00:02:53.550 support her. And as her biggest advocate, 46 00:02:54.410 --> 00:02:58.090 I needed to learn what I could do and what was 47 00:02:58.090 --> 00:03:01.850 out there. And I I knew nothing, absolutely nothing. I 48 00:03:01.850 --> 00:03:05.375 didn't. I knew of the existence of trans people, obviously, 49 00:03:05.675 --> 00:03:09.515 but I certainly, I suppose, I just hadn't 50 00:03:09.515 --> 00:03:13.215 really thought about the fact that trans trans adults 51 00:03:13.275 --> 00:03:16.715 were trans kids. You know? They had to have been trans kids. 52 00:03:16.715 --> 00:03:19.500 So having a trans kid was, 53 00:03:20.620 --> 00:03:24.300 a bit of a wake up call for me, and it 54 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:27.600 took a lot of digging and searching and 55 00:03:28.140 --> 00:03:31.820 trying to find out what I could do to best support her, including, you know, 56 00:03:31.820 --> 00:03:35.595 going to the GP. I found the 57 00:03:36.215 --> 00:03:39.995 website of mermaids online and phoned the helpline 58 00:03:40.135 --> 00:03:43.115 number when when Jackie was 6 because 59 00:03:43.895 --> 00:03:47.175 by this point, I'd spent a lot of time telling her it was okay to 60 00:03:47.175 --> 00:03:50.879 be a boy and like girl things, and she just 61 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:54.640 kept telling me that, no, she was a girl. That's 2 62 00:03:54.640 --> 00:03:58.400 years of literally sort of ignoring what she 63 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:02.239 was telling me and trying to reiterate a different reality to her, and she never 64 00:04:02.239 --> 00:04:05.795 wavered. So at 6, I, found the 65 00:04:05.795 --> 00:04:09.315 mermaids website online and and called them and sort of 66 00:04:09.315 --> 00:04:12.135 that set in motion things 67 00:04:13.235 --> 00:04:16.595 that sort of have have ended up with me here where I am now. 68 00:04:16.595 --> 00:04:20.399 So just put some context in that. Your 69 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:23.220 daughter is now in her twenties or thereabouts? 70 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:28.419 Early thirties. Early thirties. Wow. It's early thirties. 71 00:04:29.375 --> 00:04:32.975 So we're talking about a considerable amount 25 years ago, give or take 72 00:04:32.975 --> 00:04:36.655 here. Yeah. A long time. Yeah. So we we 73 00:04:36.815 --> 00:04:40.415 you can't escape but notice the the opinions and 74 00:04:40.415 --> 00:04:44.190 rhetoric in the world around trans people, trans children, etcetera, 75 00:04:44.190 --> 00:04:47.330 etcetera, etcetera. We're going back to an era here 76 00:04:47.550 --> 00:04:50.690 of 2,000 ish, 9,200,021, 77 00:04:51.470 --> 00:04:55.070 where it was pre equality act 2010, pre 78 00:04:55.070 --> 00:04:58.825 gender recognition act 2004. It was pre 79 00:04:58.965 --> 00:05:02.105 Facebook, really. So how did you 80 00:05:02.405 --> 00:05:05.845 find people to support you? Because in those days, it was like the wild west, 81 00:05:05.845 --> 00:05:09.065 I guess. There was no information. I mean, I 82 00:05:09.699 --> 00:05:13.319 found a single paragraph in a book on raising boys 83 00:05:13.620 --> 00:05:17.220 that talked about girly boys and said that they were likely to be 84 00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:20.900 gay. That was it. And then when she asked 85 00:05:20.900 --> 00:05:24.595 me at 4, you know, that's when that's when I 86 00:05:24.595 --> 00:05:28.275 found that paragraph in the book, saying that she she 87 00:05:28.275 --> 00:05:31.895 would be gay. And I kind of was waiting 88 00:05:32.595 --> 00:05:36.435 for that narrative to to switch, but she never she never stopped 89 00:05:36.435 --> 00:05:39.840 saying that this is who she was. So 90 00:05:41.340 --> 00:05:45.020 I think it was, it was an Ask Jeeves search, so it was 91 00:05:45.020 --> 00:05:48.700 likely So let's go back and read it. Ask Jeeves. Isn't it? 92 00:05:48.700 --> 00:05:52.220 Ask Jeeves. Yeah. And I think I typed in something like my 93 00:05:52.220 --> 00:05:55.525 son says says I want to be a girl. 94 00:05:56.625 --> 00:05:59.925 And Mermaids was one of, like, 3 sites that came up. 95 00:06:00.465 --> 00:06:03.745 And the only one that I could actually get through to there was I think 96 00:06:03.745 --> 00:06:07.440 the Beaumont Trust was another one. They had a phone number, but 97 00:06:07.440 --> 00:06:11.040 nobody was answering, and Mermaids was about 3 or 4 98 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.880 down. And I spoke to one of the founder members. 99 00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:18.315 I think Mermaids had been going for about 4 years by that point. And I 100 00:06:18.315 --> 00:06:21.595 spoke to one of the founder members and had a conversation. It was the first 101 00:06:21.595 --> 00:06:24.574 time I spoke to anybody who understood 102 00:06:25.354 --> 00:06:29.035 what it felt like because the lady that I spoke to had a 70 a 103 00:06:29.035 --> 00:06:31.775 then 17 year old trans daughter. 104 00:06:32.780 --> 00:06:36.080 The relief was immense. It was just enormous 105 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:39.980 to to know that somebody else was was 106 00:06:39.980 --> 00:06:43.280 living through this and had some answers for me and some direction. 107 00:06:44.155 --> 00:06:47.514 I think I cried for, like, probably the majority of that 108 00:06:47.514 --> 00:06:51.275 conversation because it was I don't 109 00:06:51.275 --> 00:06:54.875 know. I suppose I I was expecting a different outcome. I was 110 00:06:54.875 --> 00:06:58.415 afraid of verbalizing what I knew was happening, 111 00:06:59.780 --> 00:07:03.620 But I just got this, this huge outpouring 112 00:07:03.620 --> 00:07:07.300 of love and support, and I then joined the there 113 00:07:07.300 --> 00:07:10.919 was a Yahoo group, online Yahoo group 114 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:14.199 that I joined. I think there were about 30 people 115 00:07:14.925 --> 00:07:18.445 across the UK that were on that group, and I joined that group and started 116 00:07:18.445 --> 00:07:20.705 talking to to other families, 117 00:07:21.885 --> 00:07:24.865 parents with with kids. And 118 00:07:26.205 --> 00:07:29.900 I suppose that really was was kind of it for the next 119 00:07:29.960 --> 00:07:31.820 sort of 4 to 5 years. 120 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.300 Excuse me. They told me about the Tavistock 121 00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:42.200 Gender Identity Service, and I went back to my GP who I'd 122 00:07:42.200 --> 00:07:46.044 spoken to when Jackie was 4 and told me initially that that God had 123 00:07:46.044 --> 00:07:49.805 made a mistake and she was really a girl. And I went back to 124 00:07:49.965 --> 00:07:53.324 I went to the GP, and she said, oh, he'll grow out of 125 00:07:53.324 --> 00:07:56.865 it. No signs of that happening 126 00:07:57.085 --> 00:08:00.840 still. You'd hope that at 127 00:08:00.840 --> 00:08:03.420 30 30 something. Yeah. At 30 something. 128 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.760 But yeah. So that was where that's what that was where I got the the 129 00:08:08.760 --> 00:08:12.520 initial support and that for, like, the first few years, I was just a member 130 00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:15.875 of that parents group, I wasn't really actively 131 00:08:16.095 --> 00:08:19.455 doing very much other than just seeking support and speaking to other 132 00:08:19.455 --> 00:08:22.995 families as I needed. Very strange. It's a long time ago. 133 00:08:23.375 --> 00:08:27.135 I know. I know. You said growing out of it. I suppose in my own 134 00:08:27.135 --> 00:08:30.840 life, I've grown into it rather than growing out of it. It's like 135 00:08:31.380 --> 00:08:34.580 it's finding that comfy pair of slippers or that that I snuggly it off and 136 00:08:34.580 --> 00:08:38.340 go, this this is me. It fits. And, Yeah. Yeah, there's no 137 00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:42.075 out. It's definitely definitely in. So, you know, a 138 00:08:42.075 --> 00:08:45.915 lot of the rhetoric you hear today is around if we educate 139 00:08:45.915 --> 00:08:48.175 our children to be about trans 140 00:08:49.595 --> 00:08:53.370 awareness and gender identity, all these genders, What that's gonna do is 141 00:08:53.370 --> 00:08:57.149 it's gonna persuade them it's a good idea, and they should do it. It yeah. 142 00:08:57.769 --> 00:09:01.370 I'm I'm obviously saying that tongue in cheek, you know. Yeah. It's Yeah. That's 143 00:09:01.370 --> 00:09:05.209 that's the rhetoric that's, that's prevalent in today's mainstream 144 00:09:05.209 --> 00:09:09.014 media and and the world, isn't it? And 145 00:09:09.014 --> 00:09:12.555 why would anybody choose this? It's really hard. 146 00:09:13.495 --> 00:09:17.334 Why would anybody choose this? It it's it's an alien 147 00:09:17.334 --> 00:09:20.990 concept to me that that you would, as a as a 148 00:09:20.990 --> 00:09:24.750 person, you would especially now with with all of the 149 00:09:24.750 --> 00:09:28.530 anti trans narratives taking up so much space 150 00:09:28.590 --> 00:09:32.430 in media and, everywhere. Why would 151 00:09:32.430 --> 00:09:36.045 you choose this? You just wouldn't. I speak to families day in, day 152 00:09:36.045 --> 00:09:39.885 out. I speak to young people day in, day out. And if this wasn't 153 00:09:39.885 --> 00:09:43.565 the only way that they could live Right. The this they 154 00:09:43.565 --> 00:09:47.345 wouldn't choose this because it's hard. It's really hard. And 155 00:09:48.605 --> 00:09:52.240 it's getting harder because the narrative is getting 156 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.800 worse and worse, and people are being 157 00:09:56.160 --> 00:09:59.460 basically, they're being made to feel ashamed of who they are, which is 158 00:09:59.760 --> 00:10:02.820 horrible and really disturbing. 159 00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:07.225 And as, you know, as you say, it's it's 160 00:10:07.225 --> 00:10:10.845 it's simply a question of being able to live authentically. 161 00:10:11.464 --> 00:10:15.065 Everybody else has gets to do that. Why shouldn't trans people have the 162 00:10:15.065 --> 00:10:18.899 same right? It's and why does it affect anybody else? It's nobody 163 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:22.500 else's business. Yeah. I don't know about you, but I've noticed the the kind of 164 00:10:22.500 --> 00:10:26.339 attack vector more over the last few 165 00:10:26.339 --> 00:10:29.880 years into trans people are predators. 166 00:10:30.100 --> 00:10:33.885 Trans people are trying to all the trans people are now 167 00:10:33.885 --> 00:10:37.565 trying to destroy the lives of young children and ruin their lives 168 00:10:37.565 --> 00:10:40.385 and mutilate their bodies with chemicals, 169 00:10:41.965 --> 00:10:45.725 chemicals, and surgery, and life changing 170 00:10:45.725 --> 00:10:49.470 or operations before they're even 10. Painting this 171 00:10:49.470 --> 00:10:52.850 picture of this big chunky trans woman 172 00:10:53.150 --> 00:10:56.190 with a knife in one hand and a bottle of pills in the other, forcing 173 00:10:56.190 --> 00:11:00.030 it down a trans child's throat. That's that's what keeps that's in people's heads, 174 00:11:00.030 --> 00:11:03.745 isn't it? We're scaring people into believing that this is some 175 00:11:03.745 --> 00:11:07.425 sort of bad thing to help people 176 00:11:07.425 --> 00:11:10.005 help young children. I tell you, there's a there's a 177 00:11:10.945 --> 00:11:14.705 picture that I saw on social media the other day because I you 178 00:11:14.705 --> 00:11:18.230 know, I'm obviously a lot of people's favorite person. And, 179 00:11:18.390 --> 00:11:22.010 there's a picture of me and it's that it's like a a cartoon 180 00:11:22.070 --> 00:11:25.670 image of me with a big grin with a big needle in my 181 00:11:25.670 --> 00:11:29.345 hand. It's just just 182 00:11:29.345 --> 00:11:33.185 really, really stupid. It's 183 00:11:33.345 --> 00:11:37.125 and it's you look at what's going on the narratives 184 00:11:37.185 --> 00:11:41.025 that are being said. These people who are pushing these narratives, there 185 00:11:41.025 --> 00:11:44.490 are so many things in the world in terms of 186 00:11:44.490 --> 00:11:48.170 injustices and things that that they could be concentrating on. 187 00:11:48.170 --> 00:11:51.870 Instead, they choose to persecute a vulnerable minority 188 00:11:52.730 --> 00:11:56.490 and make their lives so much harder than they than it they need to 189 00:11:56.490 --> 00:11:59.775 be. And they're doing this with this almost over 190 00:12:00.395 --> 00:12:04.155 overzealous rigor to to basically stamp 191 00:12:04.155 --> 00:12:07.675 trans people out of existence. Yet there are so many things that 192 00:12:07.675 --> 00:12:11.515 do actually need that level of concentrated effort to to 193 00:12:11.515 --> 00:12:15.180 address, including, you know, violence against women. 194 00:12:16.839 --> 00:12:20.680 And they're choosing to to go after trans kids and trans women 195 00:12:20.680 --> 00:12:24.360 in particular instead. And it just I don't 196 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:28.085 know. It I it completely baffles me. I 197 00:12:28.085 --> 00:12:31.845 have I just can't understand that. I just can't 198 00:12:31.845 --> 00:12:35.685 understand it. Why on earth do they have such 199 00:12:35.685 --> 00:12:39.285 a focus on something that is never gonna impact their own 200 00:12:39.285 --> 00:12:43.040 lives? And why do they think it's okay to to go 201 00:12:43.040 --> 00:12:46.640 after kids and and and to make 202 00:12:46.640 --> 00:12:50.320 out that they should be ashamed of who they are and and that their 203 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:52.260 inherent being is is wrong. 204 00:12:54.035 --> 00:12:57.875 I just find it find it really difficult to come to terms with 205 00:12:57.875 --> 00:13:00.615 that that level of venom 206 00:13:01.475 --> 00:13:05.075 is is being constantly addressed at at 207 00:13:05.075 --> 00:13:07.735 children and trans women in as I say in particular. 208 00:13:08.660 --> 00:13:12.420 Why? Why do you look look at climate change? You know, for 209 00:13:12.420 --> 00:13:16.259 goodness sake, you need some concentration on things like violence against women, against 210 00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:20.100 climate change, against, you know, corruption in 211 00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:23.915 politics and and within the system. You know, we've we've 212 00:13:23.915 --> 00:13:27.275 got we've got these these very, 213 00:13:27.275 --> 00:13:30.635 very rich men at the center of of, you know, 214 00:13:30.635 --> 00:13:34.410 billionaires, nearly trillionaires, obviously, who 215 00:13:34.410 --> 00:13:38.010 are basically manipulating the population. Why aren't they concentrating on 216 00:13:38.010 --> 00:13:41.790 what's being done to, you know, everyone 217 00:13:41.930 --> 00:13:45.630 who isn't in those positions and highlighting 218 00:13:45.690 --> 00:13:49.404 the injustices of all of those things rather than going after a 219 00:13:49.404 --> 00:13:52.945 vulnerable minority who are simply just trying to get on and live their lives. 220 00:13:53.404 --> 00:13:57.024 That's all. I've got lots of of transgender 221 00:13:57.165 --> 00:14:00.285 people in my lives as well as well as my daughter who I love very 222 00:14:00.285 --> 00:14:03.470 much, And that's all they wanna do. They just wanna get on and live. Yeah. 223 00:14:03.470 --> 00:14:07.170 I mean, I look you look at the news, they look at all these 224 00:14:07.790 --> 00:14:11.390 atrocities and terrible things that are going on. And none 225 00:14:11.390 --> 00:14:14.735 of them are trans people. We're talking about No. Not. 226 00:14:14.894 --> 00:14:18.495 Leading figures in churches and faith groups. We're talking about leading 227 00:14:18.495 --> 00:14:22.095 people in sports organizations. We're talking about people leading people in 228 00:14:22.095 --> 00:14:25.774 communities, protecting each other in the as you say, in 229 00:14:25.774 --> 00:14:29.510 these groups of of of of privilege who are 230 00:14:29.510 --> 00:14:33.290 kind of keeping silent. And then say, well, but they're a nice person, really. 231 00:14:34.149 --> 00:14:37.750 Yeah. They just they just turned away to the dark side for a bit. We 232 00:14:37.750 --> 00:14:41.245 need to let them. It's in you you look at those things. And none of 233 00:14:41.245 --> 00:14:44.685 these people are trans. None of these people are pretending to be trans 234 00:14:44.685 --> 00:14:48.045 or or using it as an excuse. And it's like, that's the 235 00:14:48.045 --> 00:14:51.745 frustration. We see cisgender 236 00:14:51.885 --> 00:14:55.170 women murdering children, babies. 237 00:14:55.870 --> 00:14:59.570 None of those people are trans. So that I I think that's that's the frustration 238 00:14:59.630 --> 00:15:02.770 that I as a as a trans woman and many other trans people face thinking, 239 00:15:02.990 --> 00:15:06.775 hang on a minute. There are other people out there doing 240 00:15:06.775 --> 00:15:10.615 what you're saying, but it's not anyone who's saying they're trans. Yeah. 241 00:15:10.615 --> 00:15:13.355 And that's so frustrating. So frustrating. So frustrating. 242 00:15:14.135 --> 00:15:17.735 And the narrative has has gained ground in 243 00:15:17.735 --> 00:15:21.389 in by the general population's head. You know? They're they're 244 00:15:21.389 --> 00:15:24.930 listening and seeing this. And even the though there is no evidence 245 00:15:25.070 --> 00:15:28.670 of of what is being said. I had a I 246 00:15:28.670 --> 00:15:32.269 remember a conversation that I had about 6 months ago with somebody where she went, 247 00:15:32.269 --> 00:15:35.665 oh, it's just gone too far now. She's like, you know, they're trying 248 00:15:35.665 --> 00:15:39.444 to take the word mother out of pregnancy materials. 249 00:15:39.745 --> 00:15:43.345 And I went, no. They're not. They're not. And she was like, what what do 250 00:15:43.345 --> 00:15:46.565 you mean? I said, no. They're not. I said, they're adding in 251 00:15:47.105 --> 00:15:50.640 additional stuff so so that it it supports, you 252 00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:54.080 know, people who are are not 253 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.760 female, who have a uterus and who may want to have 254 00:15:57.760 --> 00:16:01.600 babies, but they don't will never see themselves as, 255 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.235 you know, mother or mom because they're not. 256 00:16:05.535 --> 00:16:09.055 I said, so they're adding in. I said, they're not taking 257 00:16:09.055 --> 00:16:12.035 away. I said, it it's just nonsense. 258 00:16:12.815 --> 00:16:16.575 And why why would that be something why would 259 00:16:16.575 --> 00:16:19.950 anybody want to, you know we don't get more 260 00:16:19.950 --> 00:16:23.710 rights at at the detriment of others. It 261 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:27.550 just means the world is more equal for everybody. I said it's and 262 00:16:27.550 --> 00:16:31.390 she actually said, you know, I feel embarrassed now because, actually, I've 263 00:16:31.390 --> 00:16:34.214 realized that I've I've been taken in 264 00:16:35.074 --> 00:16:38.754 by the rhetoric. And Yeah. That's the headlight. 265 00:16:38.754 --> 00:16:42.274 How easy how easy was that? I know. You're tough. Easy was that for you 266 00:16:42.274 --> 00:16:45.495 to lead that in your life? Yeah. Yeah. That's the lead. 267 00:16:46.090 --> 00:16:49.690 Taking the word mother out, destroying thousands of years of 268 00:16:49.690 --> 00:16:53.450 language and Yeah. Is it? But but the target 269 00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:57.210 is still trans women. Yeah. It's me that's, yeah, that's causing 270 00:16:57.210 --> 00:17:00.665 this. And I and I can't hang on a minute. I'm a woman. I'm 271 00:17:00.665 --> 00:17:04.185 trans woman. I don't wanna take the word mother out. I've got no interest in 272 00:17:04.185 --> 00:17:07.165 in in degendering language. It's not I I'm gendered. 273 00:17:07.705 --> 00:17:11.464 Yeah. What we're using is is the non binary people who want to get this 274 00:17:11.464 --> 00:17:15.300 recognition. And suddenly, it's a trans woman problem as 275 00:17:15.300 --> 00:17:18.660 being part of trying to destroy society. And it's like, hang on a 276 00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:22.100 minute. Or Never. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 277 00:17:22.100 --> 00:17:25.675 Exactly. This is not this was not the intention. This was never. It was 278 00:17:25.675 --> 00:17:28.735 about being more inclusive, not less. And 279 00:17:29.515 --> 00:17:33.195 and and they just they this fake outrage. I 280 00:17:33.195 --> 00:17:36.795 know. I get blamed for gender neutral toilets. It's like, I don't want I don't 281 00:17:36.795 --> 00:17:40.390 I don't care about gender toilets. I mean, yes, They're 282 00:17:40.390 --> 00:17:44.150 nicer. They're easier. They're more convenient. The shopping centers and car parks, things 283 00:17:44.150 --> 00:17:47.430 like this. Great. I'm happy with just a toilet. Yeah. Something I can shut the 284 00:17:47.430 --> 00:17:51.270 door. Well, I'm not banging on about this, that, and the other. And 285 00:17:51.270 --> 00:17:55.110 it's again, these arguments are being conflated with sort of, 286 00:17:55.110 --> 00:17:58.765 like, gender outrage, trans women, 287 00:17:59.145 --> 00:18:02.905 and poor trans men are just going, just get let 288 00:18:02.905 --> 00:18:06.205 me grow my beard and get on with life. It's kind of thing. Yeah. 289 00:18:06.345 --> 00:18:09.830 Yeah. I know. It's it's 290 00:18:09.830 --> 00:18:13.510 exhausting. And I can see why a lot of the community are so burnt 291 00:18:13.510 --> 00:18:17.050 out and, you know, and and they're stepping back 292 00:18:17.510 --> 00:18:21.050 and why people who are in the public eye who are being attacked constantly, 293 00:18:21.910 --> 00:18:25.735 why they might feel, I don't 294 00:18:25.735 --> 00:18:29.414 know, not just tired tired of of 295 00:18:29.414 --> 00:18:33.255 being blamed for something that, you know, is not their 296 00:18:33.255 --> 00:18:37.014 fault. You've, you've obviously been in the 297 00:18:37.014 --> 00:18:40.700 public eye for 15, 20 years, 298 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:44.539 probably, I guess quite a bit, especially through your role within 299 00:18:44.539 --> 00:18:48.240 mermaids and what you're doing now, which we'll talk about in a minute. 300 00:18:49.020 --> 00:18:52.535 It's pretty brutal out there, isn't it? The attention you get, the the 301 00:18:52.535 --> 00:18:56.055 negative attention that what people accuse you of. I 302 00:18:56.055 --> 00:18:59.815 mean, it's quite funny, really. I mean, I know the 303 00:18:59.815 --> 00:19:03.390 truth. You know, that's the that's the thing for me. I speak to 304 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:07.230 I speak to the young people. I speak to the families. I speak to, you 305 00:19:07.230 --> 00:19:10.510 know, as I say, so many people in my life now that I love are 306 00:19:10.510 --> 00:19:14.190 are trans because of, obviously, the direction that, 307 00:19:14.830 --> 00:19:18.645 my life has taken. But I I 308 00:19:18.645 --> 00:19:22.165 know the truth. So I read this stuff and it actually just makes me 309 00:19:22.165 --> 00:19:25.625 laugh, really. The the the venom and the 310 00:19:26.165 --> 00:19:29.465 and the the stuff that's aimed at me, 311 00:19:29.765 --> 00:19:33.590 it's quite funny, because none of those things are 312 00:19:33.590 --> 00:19:37.110 true. I don't I'm I I stopped a long time 313 00:19:37.110 --> 00:19:40.950 ago worrying about what other people's opinions who hold 314 00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:43.130 these opinions of me are because 315 00:19:44.934 --> 00:19:48.615 I know I know what I'm doing and what, you know, my, you know, what 316 00:19:48.615 --> 00:19:52.375 my co director, co founder Lizzie is doing, and I know what our team is 317 00:19:52.375 --> 00:19:56.075 doing, and I know that the people that I've worked with over the years who, 318 00:19:56.294 --> 00:19:59.920 you know, who have with alongside 319 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:03.820 me, I, you know, been allies as well as members of the 320 00:20:03.820 --> 00:20:06.720 community. I know what we're doing is the right thing. 321 00:20:09.260 --> 00:20:12.115 And those negative, conversations, 322 00:20:13.135 --> 00:20:15.935 they don't they don't touch me. The things that they say about me, they don't 323 00:20:15.935 --> 00:20:19.315 bother me because they're not true. 324 00:20:20.015 --> 00:20:22.755 And, actually, I say, quite comical, some of them. 325 00:20:24.140 --> 00:20:27.179 I I love I love every now and again, something will come out. I think 326 00:20:27.179 --> 00:20:31.019 after after exited Mermaids, there was a lot of jubilation about, oh 327 00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:34.539 my goodness. We've managed to get her. She's gone. And then 328 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:38.315 when Anne Health launched, the reaction was 329 00:20:38.315 --> 00:20:42.155 was hysterical. And it was like, oh my god. Susie Green. I think one 330 00:20:42.155 --> 00:20:45.835 of the ones that, I screenshot and put sort of, like, on my 331 00:20:45.835 --> 00:20:49.515 screen, I wish she'd just shut up. But, yeah, it's 332 00:20:49.755 --> 00:20:53.590 yeah. Yeah. I don't really care what they say, but I know 333 00:20:53.590 --> 00:20:56.890 for other people, you know, it it really hurts. 334 00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:01.910 Yeah. I I look at my web stats on a daily basis, and all of 335 00:21:01.910 --> 00:21:05.725 a sudden, they'll they'll jump through the roof, and it's all on my bio 336 00:21:05.725 --> 00:21:09.325 page or the home page or something. And I go, okay. So I look at 337 00:21:09.325 --> 00:21:13.085 the sources, and that would be x.com or twitter.com. It will be Mumsnet. It'll 338 00:21:13.085 --> 00:21:16.765 be some other site. Okay. Okay. So I I hunt down the article to see 339 00:21:16.765 --> 00:21:19.840 what they're saying. And it's like, oh, yeah. Here we go. It's almost like playing 340 00:21:19.840 --> 00:21:23.280 hate bingo. Oh, yeah. You said that. You said that. Dodgy 341 00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:26.960 wig, evil smile, staring eyes. 342 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.000 We've got all yeah. We tick tick. Yeah. Yeah. You've shit all the Facebook groups 343 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.725 on that one. Thank you. Yeah. We call them, MUNSNET 344 00:21:33.725 --> 00:21:37.505 is, Prosecco Stormfront. It's, like, 345 00:21:37.885 --> 00:21:40.925 just this quagmire of, 346 00:21:41.325 --> 00:21:44.065 entitled, women 347 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.140 discussing things and and professing outrage, but, 348 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.760 you know, not one of them is actually dealing or supporting a trans 349 00:21:52.760 --> 00:21:56.520 person in their lives at all. So they're just poking their nose into 350 00:21:56.520 --> 00:22:00.245 stuff that is none of their business. Well, it'll start off with 351 00:22:00.245 --> 00:22:04.005 AIBU. Am I being unreasonable? Yeah. Actually, you probably are, if you 352 00:22:04.005 --> 00:22:07.845 don't mind. That's actually Yeah. Every now and again, if I want a bit of 353 00:22:07.845 --> 00:22:10.485 a giggle, I'll have a I'll I'll go put my name into mom's net and 354 00:22:10.485 --> 00:22:13.305 have a look at what the what the most recent stuff is. But, 355 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.840 hang on. I do it for a laugh sometimes and sometimes screenshot it. I when 356 00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:20.960 I'm doing keynotes and talks, all I sometimes do is is is post some of 357 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.480 the latest. You know, most people put testimonials on there, so I I just do 358 00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:28.225 negative testimonials. Shelley, this is what people think of me. 359 00:22:28.225 --> 00:22:31.585 I think I was acquitted to Joseph Mengele at one point trying to destroy children. 360 00:22:31.585 --> 00:22:35.425 It's like right? Well, yeah. I mean, I there's there's 361 00:22:35.425 --> 00:22:39.185 there's actually some somebody did a mock up of the, child catcher 362 00:22:39.185 --> 00:22:42.610 from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and put my face on it. That was 363 00:22:42.610 --> 00:22:46.290 funny. That was funny. I mean, the best one the the one that, like, 364 00:22:46.290 --> 00:22:49.270 I'm I hold most dear was when 365 00:22:50.050 --> 00:22:53.862 after Caroline Farrow and Posey Parker went after me, and I 366 00:22:53.862 --> 00:22:57.274 spoke the police potentially about a harassment case, which I then dropped because I was 367 00:22:57.274 --> 00:23:00.894 thought I'm giving I'm giving them, like, a platform with this. But, 368 00:23:01.835 --> 00:23:04.575 somebody from America posted a picture of Ursula, 369 00:23:05.755 --> 00:23:09.135 from The Little Mermaid up and said this is Susie Green's TrueForm. 370 00:23:10.290 --> 00:23:14.130 And I was doing the mermaid's, social media at 371 00:23:14.130 --> 00:23:17.970 the time, and I just replied and said, but and they said, she can't 372 00:23:17.970 --> 00:23:21.650 sue me because I'm in America. And I just went back with 373 00:23:21.650 --> 00:23:25.365 this picture, and I just replied and said, but seriously, does my 374 00:23:25.365 --> 00:23:29.044 bum look big in this? And then I screenshotted it and 375 00:23:29.044 --> 00:23:32.804 had it as my profile picture for years. I loved it so 376 00:23:32.804 --> 00:23:36.290 much. And, you know, people, friends, family, 377 00:23:36.290 --> 00:23:39.970 etcetera, still buy me Ursula products just because they think it's 378 00:23:39.970 --> 00:23:43.650 fun. So but then, you know, she's she's the perfect baddie, 379 00:23:43.650 --> 00:23:47.490 isn't she? So Well, she said she's got a bit of a cuteness 380 00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:51.195 about her as well. She's not completely evil, is she? She's she's cool. She's 381 00:23:51.195 --> 00:23:55.035 cool. Yeah. I think she's cool as well. I think, yeah, we'll she's 382 00:23:55.035 --> 00:23:58.415 probably a a fierce torture of of defense for 383 00:23:58.795 --> 00:24:02.155 us, for Ariel and things like that. I think she's she's there really. She's looking 384 00:24:02.155 --> 00:24:05.940 after everybody. Sorry. Yeah. We need we need really strong matriarchal 385 00:24:06.080 --> 00:24:09.840 characters in our in our pond, don't we, sometimes? Yeah. Why 386 00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:13.520 not? As I say, she was she was my profile picture for a lot of 387 00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:17.360 years. Yeah. So glad you owned it. Yeah. It's 388 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.775 well, it it is. I think we've we've 389 00:24:21.075 --> 00:24:24.835 anybody who's in the public eye and wherever it in in wherever micro or macro 390 00:24:24.835 --> 00:24:27.955 way, you've you've just gotta be used to people having an opinion on you. I 391 00:24:27.955 --> 00:24:31.795 remember Brene Brown knew she'd made 392 00:24:31.795 --> 00:24:35.000 an impact when she got more as much hate as she got likes on her 393 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.760 YouTube. So, see, and that's Brene Brown. So, you you know, it's it's 394 00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:42.600 it's everybody gets hate. Marmite, isn't it? You love me or hate 395 00:24:42.600 --> 00:24:45.980 me. That's fine. I'm cool with it. Yeah. Definitely. 396 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:50.765 But it it's yeah. Where are we now? We're we're last couple of days 397 00:24:50.765 --> 00:24:54.365 of January 2025, and we're a few weeks 398 00:24:54.365 --> 00:24:57.585 on from events in the US where we're seeing a lot of, 399 00:24:58.045 --> 00:25:01.720 EOs, executive orders coming out around transferring 400 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:05.559 the military, defunding, you know, rejecting transferring 401 00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:08.380