Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 155
Joanne Lockwood: with the title, Healthcare with a Heart.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Susie
Joanne Lockwood: Green. Susie is the cofounder and co director of Anne
Joanne Lockwood: Health, dedicated to providing compassionate, accessible
Joanne Lockwood: health care for trans people of all ages. And when I
Joanne Lockwood: asked Susie to describe her superpower, she said that it is empowering
Joanne Lockwood: trans kids and their families with care, resilience,
Joanne Lockwood: and love. Hello, Susie. Welcome to the show.
Susie Green: Lovely to be here, and, good morning. Yeah. I've been looking
Joanne Lockwood: forward to this. We we Chesed, I think, on LinkedIn probably 6 months
Joanne Lockwood: ago, then we met at the Trans of the City Awards night,
Joanne Lockwood: back in November on, Trans Day of remembrance
Joanne Lockwood: or no. Trans AF Wish of Visibility, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And, yeah, I'm I've I've been a huge fan of the work you've done. I've
Joanne Lockwood: I've come across you and your organizations in in over the
Joanne Lockwood: years. So it's a real honor. So you've been at the
Joanne Lockwood: forefront, as I probably just implied, of trans health care and
Joanne Lockwood: supporting people for years. So what first inspired you
Joanne Lockwood: to do this? Well, it was having a trans kid. And
Susie Green: before I knew I had
Susie Green: a trans kid, I knew nothing about trans
Susie Green: rights, trans kids, trans people in general. I was,
Susie Green: you know, completely oblivious and knew nothing.
Susie Green: But when my daughter told me that god
Susie Green: had made a mistake and and she should have been a girl
Susie Green: at 4 years old, I had to learn, and I had to
Susie Green: learn quickly because I needed to be there to
Susie Green: support her. And as her biggest advocate,
Susie Green: I needed to learn what I could do and what was
Susie Green: out there. And I I knew nothing, absolutely nothing. I
Susie Green: didn't. I knew of the existence of trans people, obviously,
Susie Green: but I certainly, I suppose, I just hadn't
Susie Green: really thought about the fact that trans trans adults
Susie Green: were trans kids. You know? They had to have been trans kids.
Susie Green: So having a trans kid was,
Susie Green: a bit of a wake up call for me, and it
Susie Green: took a lot of digging and searching and
Susie Green: trying to find out what I could do to best support her, including, you know,
Susie Green: going to the GP. I found the
Susie Green: website of mermaids online and phoned the helpline
Susie Green: number when when Jackie was 6 because
Susie Green: by this point, I'd spent a lot of time telling her it was okay to
Susie Green: be a boy and like girl things, and she just
Susie Green: kept telling me that, no, she was a girl. That's 2
Susie Green: years of literally sort of ignoring what she
Susie Green: was telling me and trying to reiterate a different reality to her, and she never
Susie Green: wavered. So at 6, I, found the
Susie Green: mermaids website online and and called them and sort of
Susie Green: that set in motion things
Susie Green: that sort of have have ended up with me here where I am now.
Joanne Lockwood: So just put some context in that. Your
Joanne Lockwood: daughter is now in her twenties or thereabouts?
Susie Green: Early thirties. Early thirties. Wow. It's early thirties.
Joanne Lockwood: So we're talking about a considerable amount 25 years ago, give or take
Joanne Lockwood: here. Yeah. A long time. Yeah. So we we
Joanne Lockwood: you can't escape but notice the the opinions and
Joanne Lockwood: rhetoric in the world around trans people, trans children, etcetera,
Joanne Lockwood: etcetera, etcetera. We're going back to an era here
Joanne Lockwood: of 2,000 ish, 9,200,021,
Joanne Lockwood: where it was pre equality act 2010, pre
Joanne Lockwood: gender recognition act 2004. It was pre
Joanne Lockwood: Facebook, really. So how did you
Joanne Lockwood: find people to support you? Because in those days, it was like the wild west,
Joanne Lockwood: I guess. There was no information. I mean, I
Susie Green: found a single paragraph in a book on raising boys
Susie Green: that talked about girly boys and said that they were likely to be
Susie Green: gay. That was it. And then when she asked
Susie Green: me at 4, you know, that's when that's when I
Susie Green: found that paragraph in the book, saying that she she
Susie Green: would be gay. And I kind of was waiting
Susie Green: for that narrative to to switch, but she never she never stopped
Susie Green: saying that this is who she was. So
Susie Green: I think it was, it was an Ask Jeeves search, so it was
Susie Green: likely So let's go back and read it. Ask Jeeves. Isn't it?
Susie Green: Ask Jeeves. Yeah. And I think I typed in something like my
Susie Green: son says says I want to be a girl.
Susie Green: And Mermaids was one of, like, 3 sites that came up.
Susie Green: And the only one that I could actually get through to there was I think
Susie Green: the Beaumont Trust was another one. They had a phone number, but
Susie Green: nobody was answering, and Mermaids was about 3 or 4
Susie Green: down. And I spoke to one of the founder members.
Susie Green: I think Mermaids had been going for about 4 years by that point. And I
Susie Green: spoke to one of the founder members and had a conversation. It was the first
Susie Green: time I spoke to anybody who understood
Susie Green: what it felt like because the lady that I spoke to had a 70 a
Susie Green: then 17 year old trans daughter.
Susie Green: The relief was immense. It was just enormous
Susie Green: to to know that somebody else was was
Susie Green: living through this and had some answers for me and some direction.
Susie Green: I think I cried for, like, probably the majority of that
Susie Green: conversation because it was I don't
Susie Green: know. I suppose I I was expecting a different outcome. I was
Susie Green: afraid of verbalizing what I knew was happening,
Susie Green: But I just got this, this huge outpouring
Susie Green: of love and support, and I then joined the there
Susie Green: was a Yahoo group, online Yahoo group
Susie Green: that I joined. I think there were about 30 people
Susie Green: across the UK that were on that group, and I joined that group and started
Susie Green: talking to to other families,
Susie Green: parents with with kids. And
Susie Green: I suppose that really was was kind of it for the next
Susie Green: sort of 4 to 5 years.
Susie Green: Excuse me. They told me about the Tavistock
Susie Green: Gender Identity Service, and I went back to my GP who I'd
Susie Green: spoken to when Jackie was 4 and told me initially that that God had
Susie Green: made a mistake and she was really a girl. And I went back to
Susie Green: I went to the GP, and she said, oh, he'll grow out of
Susie Green: it. No signs of that happening
Susie Green: still. You'd hope that at
Susie Green: 30 30 something. Yeah. At 30 something.
Susie Green: But yeah. So that was where that's what that was where I got the the
Susie Green: initial support and that for, like, the first few years, I was just a member
Susie Green: of that parents group, I wasn't really actively
Susie Green: doing very much other than just seeking support and speaking to other
Susie Green: families as I needed. Very strange. It's a long time ago.
Joanne Lockwood: I know. I know. You said growing out of it. I suppose in my own
Joanne Lockwood: life, I've grown into it rather than growing out of it. It's like
Joanne Lockwood: it's finding that comfy pair of slippers or that that I snuggly it off and
Joanne Lockwood: go, this this is me. It fits. And, Yeah. Yeah, there's no
Joanne Lockwood: out. It's definitely definitely in. So, you know, a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of the rhetoric you hear today is around if we educate
Joanne Lockwood: our children to be about trans
Joanne Lockwood: awareness and gender identity, all these genders, What that's gonna do is
Joanne Lockwood: it's gonna persuade them it's a good idea, and they should do it. It yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm obviously saying that tongue in cheek, you know. Yeah. It's Yeah. That's
Joanne Lockwood: that's the rhetoric that's, that's prevalent in today's mainstream
Joanne Lockwood: media and and the world, isn't it? And
Susie Green: why would anybody choose this? It's really hard.
Susie Green: Why would anybody choose this? It it's it's an alien
Susie Green: concept to me that that you would, as a as a
Susie Green: person, you would especially now with with all of the
Susie Green: anti trans narratives taking up so much space
Susie Green: in media and, everywhere. Why would
Susie Green: you choose this? You just wouldn't. I speak to families day in, day
Susie Green: out. I speak to young people day in, day out. And if this wasn't
Susie Green: the only way that they could live Right. The this they
Susie Green: wouldn't choose this because it's hard. It's really hard. And
Susie Green: it's getting harder because the narrative is getting
Susie Green: worse and worse, and people are being
Susie Green: basically, they're being made to feel ashamed of who they are, which is
Susie Green: horrible and really disturbing.
Susie Green: And as, you know, as you say, it's it's
Susie Green: it's simply a question of being able to live authentically.
Susie Green: Everybody else has gets to do that. Why shouldn't trans people have the
Susie Green: same right? It's and why does it affect anybody else? It's nobody
Susie Green: else's business. Yeah. I don't know about you, but I've noticed the the kind of
Joanne Lockwood: attack vector more over the last few
Joanne Lockwood: years into trans people are predators.
Joanne Lockwood: Trans people are trying to all the trans people are now
Joanne Lockwood: trying to destroy the lives of young children and ruin their lives
Joanne Lockwood: and mutilate their bodies with chemicals,
Joanne Lockwood: chemicals, and surgery, and life changing
Joanne Lockwood: or operations before they're even 10. Painting this
Joanne Lockwood: picture of this big chunky trans woman
Joanne Lockwood: with a knife in one hand and a bottle of pills in the other, forcing
Joanne Lockwood: it down a trans child's throat. That's that's what keeps that's in people's heads,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? We're scaring people into believing that this is some
Joanne Lockwood: sort of bad thing to help people
Susie Green: help young children. I tell you, there's a there's a
Susie Green: picture that I saw on social media the other day because I you
Susie Green: know, I'm obviously a lot of people's favorite person. And,
Susie Green: there's a picture of me and it's that it's like a a cartoon
Susie Green: image of me with a big grin with a big needle in my
Susie Green: hand. It's just just
Susie Green: really, really stupid. It's
Susie Green: and it's you look at what's going on the narratives
Susie Green: that are being said. These people who are pushing these narratives, there
Susie Green: are so many things in the world in terms of
Susie Green: injustices and things that that they could be concentrating on.
Susie Green: Instead, they choose to persecute a vulnerable minority
Susie Green: and make their lives so much harder than they than it they need to
Susie Green: be. And they're doing this with this almost over
Susie Green: overzealous rigor to to basically stamp
Susie Green: trans people out of existence. Yet there are so many things that
Susie Green: do actually need that level of concentrated effort to to
Susie Green: address, including, you know, violence against women.
Susie Green: And they're choosing to to go after trans kids and trans women
Susie Green: in particular instead. And it just I don't
Susie Green: know. It I it completely baffles me. I
Susie Green: have I just can't understand that. I just can't
Susie Green: understand it. Why on earth do they have such
Susie Green: a focus on something that is never gonna impact their own
Susie Green: lives? And why do they think it's okay to to go
Susie Green: after kids and and and to make
Susie Green: out that they should be ashamed of who they are and and that their
Susie Green: inherent being is is wrong.
Susie Green: I just find it find it really difficult to come to terms with
Susie Green: that that level of venom
Susie Green: is is being constantly addressed at at
Susie Green: children and trans women in as I say in particular.
Susie Green: Why? Why do you look look at climate change? You know, for
Susie Green: goodness sake, you need some concentration on things like violence against women, against
Susie Green: climate change, against, you know, corruption in
Susie Green: politics and and within the system. You know, we've we've
Susie Green: got we've got these these very,
Susie Green: very rich men at the center of of, you know,
Susie Green: billionaires, nearly trillionaires, obviously, who
Susie Green: are basically manipulating the population. Why aren't they concentrating on
Susie Green: what's being done to, you know, everyone
Susie Green: who isn't in those positions and highlighting
Susie Green: the injustices of all of those things rather than going after a
Susie Green: vulnerable minority who are simply just trying to get on and live their lives.
Susie Green: That's all. I've got lots of of transgender
Susie Green: people in my lives as well as well as my daughter who I love very
Susie Green: much, And that's all they wanna do. They just wanna get on and live. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I look you look at the news, they look at all these
Joanne Lockwood: atrocities and terrible things that are going on. And none
Joanne Lockwood: of them are trans people. We're talking about No. Not.
Joanne Lockwood: Leading figures in churches and faith groups. We're talking about leading
Joanne Lockwood: people in sports organizations. We're talking about people leading people in
Joanne Lockwood: communities, protecting each other in the as you say, in
Joanne Lockwood: these groups of of of of privilege who are
Joanne Lockwood: kind of keeping silent. And then say, well, but they're a nice person, really.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. They just they just turned away to the dark side for a bit. We
Joanne Lockwood: need to let them. It's in you you look at those things. And none of
Joanne Lockwood: these people are trans. None of these people are pretending to be trans
Joanne Lockwood: or or using it as an excuse. And it's like, that's the
Joanne Lockwood: frustration. We see cisgender
Joanne Lockwood: women murdering children, babies.
Joanne Lockwood: None of those people are trans. So that I I think that's that's the frustration
Joanne Lockwood: that I as a as a trans woman and many other trans people face thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: hang on a minute. There are other people out there doing
Joanne Lockwood: what you're saying, but it's not anyone who's saying they're trans. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's so frustrating. So frustrating. So frustrating.
Susie Green: And the narrative has has gained ground in
Susie Green: in by the general population's head. You know? They're they're
Susie Green: listening and seeing this. And even the though there is no evidence
Susie Green: of of what is being said. I had a I
Susie Green: remember a conversation that I had about 6 months ago with somebody where she went,
Susie Green: oh, it's just gone too far now. She's like, you know, they're trying
Susie Green: to take the word mother out of pregnancy materials.
Susie Green: And I went, no. They're not. They're not. And she was like, what what do
Susie Green: you mean? I said, no. They're not. I said, they're adding in
Susie Green: additional stuff so so that it it supports, you
Susie Green: know, people who are are not
Susie Green: female, who have a uterus and who may want to have
Susie Green: babies, but they don't will never see themselves as,
Susie Green: you know, mother or mom because they're not.
Susie Green: I said, so they're adding in. I said, they're not taking
Susie Green: away. I said, it it's just nonsense.
Susie Green: And why why would that be something why would
Susie Green: anybody want to, you know we don't get more
Susie Green: rights at at the detriment of others. It
Susie Green: just means the world is more equal for everybody. I said it's and
Susie Green: she actually said, you know, I feel embarrassed now because, actually, I've
Susie Green: realized that I've I've been taken in
Susie Green: by the rhetoric. And Yeah. That's the headlight.
Susie Green: How easy how easy was that? I know. You're tough. Easy was that for you
Susie Green: to lead that in your life? Yeah. Yeah. That's the lead.
Joanne Lockwood: Taking the word mother out, destroying thousands of years of
Joanne Lockwood: language and Yeah. Is it? But but the target
Joanne Lockwood: is still trans women. Yeah. It's me that's, yeah, that's causing
Joanne Lockwood: this. And I and I can't hang on a minute. I'm a woman. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: trans woman. I don't wanna take the word mother out. I've got no interest in
Joanne Lockwood: in in degendering language. It's not I I'm gendered.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. What we're using is is the non binary people who want to get this
Joanne Lockwood: recognition. And suddenly, it's a trans woman problem as
Joanne Lockwood: being part of trying to destroy society. And it's like, hang on a
Joanne Lockwood: minute. Or Never. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Susie Green: Exactly. This is not this was not the intention. This was never. It was
Susie Green: about being more inclusive, not less. And
Susie Green: and and they just they this fake outrage. I
Joanne Lockwood: know. I get blamed for gender neutral toilets. It's like, I don't want I don't
Joanne Lockwood: I don't care about gender toilets. I mean, yes, They're
Joanne Lockwood: nicer. They're easier. They're more convenient. The shopping centers and car parks, things
Joanne Lockwood: like this. Great. I'm happy with just a toilet. Yeah. Something I can shut the
Joanne Lockwood: door. Well, I'm not banging on about this, that, and the other. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's again, these arguments are being conflated with sort of,
Joanne Lockwood: like, gender outrage, trans women,
Joanne Lockwood: and poor trans men are just going, just get let
Joanne Lockwood: me grow my beard and get on with life. It's kind of thing. Yeah.
Susie Green: Yeah. I know. It's it's
Susie Green: exhausting. And I can see why a lot of the community are so burnt
Susie Green: out and, you know, and and they're stepping back
Susie Green: and why people who are in the public eye who are being attacked constantly,
Susie Green: why they might feel, I don't
Susie Green: know, not just tired tired of of
Susie Green: being blamed for something that, you know, is not their
Susie Green: fault. You've, you've obviously been in the
Joanne Lockwood: public eye for 15, 20 years,
Joanne Lockwood: probably, I guess quite a bit, especially through your role within
Joanne Lockwood: mermaids and what you're doing now, which we'll talk about in a minute.
Joanne Lockwood: It's pretty brutal out there, isn't it? The attention you get, the the
Joanne Lockwood: negative attention that what people accuse you of. I
Susie Green: mean, it's quite funny, really. I mean, I know the
Susie Green: truth. You know, that's the that's the thing for me. I speak to
Susie Green: I speak to the young people. I speak to the families. I speak to, you
Susie Green: know, as I say, so many people in my life now that I love are
Susie Green: are trans because of, obviously, the direction that,
Susie Green: my life has taken. But I I
Susie Green: know the truth. So I read this stuff and it actually just makes me
Susie Green: laugh, really. The the the venom and the
Susie Green: and the the stuff that's aimed at me,
Susie Green: it's quite funny, because none of those things are
Susie Green: true. I don't I'm I I stopped a long time
Susie Green: ago worrying about what other people's opinions who hold
Susie Green: these opinions of me are because
Susie Green: I know I know what I'm doing and what, you know, my, you know, what
Susie Green: my co director, co founder Lizzie is doing, and I know what our team is
Susie Green: doing, and I know that the people that I've worked with over the years who,
Susie Green: you know, who have with alongside
Susie Green: me, I, you know, been allies as well as members of the
Susie Green: community. I know what we're doing is the right thing.
Susie Green: And those negative, conversations,
Susie Green: they don't they don't touch me. The things that they say about me, they don't
Susie Green: bother me because they're not true.
Susie Green: And, actually, I say, quite comical, some of them.
Susie Green: I I love I love every now and again, something will come out. I think
Susie Green: after after exited Mermaids, there was a lot of jubilation about, oh
Susie Green: my goodness. We've managed to get her. She's gone. And then
Susie Green: when Anne Health launched, the reaction was
Susie Green: was hysterical. And it was like, oh my god. Susie Green. I think one
Susie Green: of the ones that, I screenshot and put sort of, like, on my
Susie Green: screen, I wish she'd just shut up. But, yeah, it's
Susie Green: yeah. Yeah. I don't really care what they say, but I know
Susie Green: for other people, you know, it it really hurts.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I look at my web stats on a daily basis, and all of
Joanne Lockwood: a sudden, they'll they'll jump through the roof, and it's all on my bio
Joanne Lockwood: page or the home page or something. And I go, okay. So I look at
Joanne Lockwood: the sources, and that would be x.com or twitter.com. It will be Mumsnet. It'll
Joanne Lockwood: be some other site. Okay. Okay. So I I hunt down the article to see
Joanne Lockwood: what they're saying. And it's like, oh, yeah. Here we go. It's almost like playing
Joanne Lockwood: hate bingo. Oh, yeah. You said that. You said that. Dodgy
Joanne Lockwood: wig, evil smile, staring eyes.
Joanne Lockwood: We've got all yeah. We tick tick. Yeah. Yeah. You've shit all the Facebook groups
Joanne Lockwood: on that one. Thank you. Yeah. We call them, MUNSNET
Susie Green: is, Prosecco Stormfront. It's, like,
Susie Green: just this quagmire of,
Susie Green: entitled, women
Susie Green: discussing things and and professing outrage, but,
Susie Green: you know, not one of them is actually dealing or supporting a trans
Susie Green: person in their lives at all. So they're just poking their nose into
Susie Green: stuff that is none of their business. Well, it'll start off with
Joanne Lockwood: AIBU. Am I being unreasonable? Yeah. Actually, you probably are, if you
Joanne Lockwood: don't mind. That's actually Yeah. Every now and again, if I want a bit of
Susie Green: a giggle, I'll have a I'll I'll go put my name into mom's net and
Susie Green: have a look at what the what the most recent stuff is. But,
Susie Green: hang on. I do it for a laugh sometimes and sometimes screenshot it. I when
Joanne Lockwood: I'm doing keynotes and talks, all I sometimes do is is is post some of
Joanne Lockwood: the latest. You know, most people put testimonials on there, so I I just do
Joanne Lockwood: negative testimonials. Shelley, this is what people think of me.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I was acquitted to Joseph Mengele at one point trying to destroy children.
Joanne Lockwood: It's like right? Well, yeah. I mean, I there's there's
Susie Green: there's actually some somebody did a mock up of the, child catcher
Susie Green: from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and put my face on it. That was
Susie Green: funny. That was funny. I mean, the best one the the one that, like,
Susie Green: I'm I hold most dear was when
Susie Green: after Caroline Farrow and Posey Parker went after me, and I
Susie Green: spoke the police potentially about a harassment case, which I then dropped because I was
Susie Green: thought I'm giving I'm giving them, like, a platform with this. But,
Susie Green: somebody from America posted a picture of Ursula,
Susie Green: from The Little Mermaid up and said this is Susie Green's TrueForm.
Susie Green: And I was doing the mermaid's, social media at
Susie Green: the time, and I just replied and said, but and they said, she can't
Susie Green: sue me because I'm in America. And I just went back with
Susie Green: this picture, and I just replied and said, but seriously, does my
Susie Green: bum look big in this? And then I screenshotted it and
Susie Green: had it as my profile picture for years. I loved it so
Susie Green: much. And, you know, people, friends, family,
Susie Green: etcetera, still buy me Ursula products just because they think it's
Susie Green: fun. So but then, you know, she's she's the perfect baddie,
Susie Green: isn't she? So Well, she said she's got a bit of a cuteness
Joanne Lockwood: about her as well. She's not completely evil, is she? She's she's cool. She's
Susie Green: cool. Yeah. I think she's cool as well. I think, yeah, we'll she's
Joanne Lockwood: probably a a fierce torture of of defense for
Joanne Lockwood: us, for Ariel and things like that. I think she's she's there really. She's looking
Joanne Lockwood: after everybody. Sorry. Yeah. We need we need really strong matriarchal
Joanne Lockwood: characters in our in our pond, don't we, sometimes? Yeah. Why
Susie Green: not? As I say, she was she was my profile picture for a lot of
Susie Green: years. Yeah. So glad you owned it. Yeah. It's
Joanne Lockwood: well, it it is. I think we've we've
Joanne Lockwood: anybody who's in the public eye and wherever it in in wherever micro or macro
Joanne Lockwood: way, you've you've just gotta be used to people having an opinion on you. I
Joanne Lockwood: remember Brene Brown knew she'd made
Joanne Lockwood: an impact when she got more as much hate as she got likes on her
Joanne Lockwood: YouTube. So, see, and that's Brene Brown. So, you you know, it's it's
Joanne Lockwood: it's everybody gets hate. Marmite, isn't it? You love me or hate
Joanne Lockwood: me. That's fine. I'm cool with it. Yeah. Definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: But it it's yeah. Where are we now? We're we're last couple of days
Joanne Lockwood: of January 2025, and we're a few weeks
Joanne Lockwood: on from events in the US where we're seeing a lot of,
Joanne Lockwood: EOs, executive orders coming out around transferring
Joanne Lockwood: the military, defunding, you know, rejecting transferring
Joanne Lockwood: society, canceling driving licenses. So it's real
Joanne Lockwood: it's a real state in the states. And that info that
Joanne Lockwood: travels across across the Atlantic as well to us. We we can't be
Joanne Lockwood: immune to what's going on over there, can we? No.
Susie Green: And it's it's really disturbing to see what's going on. I
Susie Green: think yesterday, I spent in, like, a fog of
Susie Green: disbelief about how bad it it's got. Though, to be honest,
Susie Green: kind of expected this to happen
Susie Green: when, obviously, Trump, got back in as president.
Susie Green: You know, he started a lot of this when he in his previous term and
Susie Green: tried to to move things in that direction. So these executive
Susie Green: orders, although they're horrific, are not a massive
Susie Green: surprise. And, obviously, there's work being
Susie Green: done in the states to to push back against them.
Susie Green: But trans health care for trans youth particularly, obviously, is
Susie Green: being affected by the executive order that came out,
Susie Green: you know, just over a day ago. And we're seeing
Susie Green: within our organization, we're seeing,
Susie Green: families with trans kids in America reaching
Susie Green: out and saying, can you help us? Because
Susie Green: access to their health care for their kids looks like it's gonna
Susie Green: be shut down. And clinics are acting
Susie Green: in advance of the order actually coming into law as well and
Susie Green: turning peep you know, turning young people away from clinic appointments for blockers and
Susie Green: stuff. So this is like I
Susie Green: can't imagine what it must feel like to be a family with a trans
Susie Green: kid in America right now. I really can't. I just
Susie Green: it just I don't wanna think about it too much because it makes me feel
Susie Green: so sad and really angry on their behalf about what
Susie Green: they're they're being put through right now. It's, yeah, it's awful. And,
Susie Green: obviously, we've got our own issues here with Westreting putting
Susie Green: in the permanent ban against, puberty blockers for
Susie Green: young people on the flimsiest of premises.
Susie Green: And he spoke to a room, West Street Inc,
Susie Green: spoke to a room full of of trans kids and their parents.
Susie Green: And I've spoken to a parent who was in that space, and she said those
Susie Green: 90 minutes were probably the most traumatic of her life because those
Susie Green: kids shared what the blocker ban meant to them.
Susie Green: And he said he heard them, and he looked them in the face. He looked
Susie Green: them in the eyes and said he heard them, and then he went ahead and
Susie Green: did it anyway. It's it's devastating.
Susie Green: Politics has no place in health care. No place in health
Susie Green: care. And this is going to
Susie Green: at some point, this is all gonna be reversed. And this will be
Susie Green: looked back as a particularly bleak and black stage of history
Susie Green: for for trans youth and trans people in general. In
Joanne Lockwood: the same way, we looked at what went on with AIDS, what we looked on
Joanne Lockwood: with section 28, what we looked on with racial
Joanne Lockwood: discrimination, gender all the things we've we've looked back in our history and go, that's
Joanne Lockwood: not a proud moment in time. And I I agree, and it's
Joanne Lockwood: with West responding really,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't wanna make excuses for him or anybody, from the cash
Joanne Lockwood: report. You know, the cash report came out, in the last
Joanne Lockwood: dying embers of the Tory government. Put it across the line.
Joanne Lockwood: And on balance, it says some good things. There's some good things in the cash
Joanne Lockwood: report. One is that we need better support for young trans people. We need to
Joanne Lockwood: understand it better. So if you look at some of the positives, there's a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of positives. Not one place in the cash report actually say,
Joanne Lockwood: puberty blockers were banned. Because if they did, what would
Joanne Lockwood: happen was that these these trials they're proposing or or embarking
Joanne Lockwood: on, how how can you embark on a trial for something you've you've declared
Joanne Lockwood: as being a bad thing? So
Joanne Lockwood: I'm hoping the government do the trials.
Joanne Lockwood: They they take the heat out of this negative rhetoric and go,
Joanne Lockwood: actually, here's logical clinical evidence now, which
Joanne Lockwood: we never had. So as I said, at the end, don't justify the means
Joanne Lockwood: at all. I'm hoping that we come out with something
Joanne Lockwood: really credible at the end of this. The only problem is the trial
Susie Green: itself is completely unethical to give
Susie Green: an you know, this is this was presented at the women's select committee.
Susie Green: Simona Giordano, who's a bioethicist, you know, hit the nail on the head. It's
Susie Green: completely unethical to force people into a
Susie Green: clinical trial by withholding access to treatment by any other
Susie Green: means. It is unethical and it breaches people's human
Susie Green: rights. And actually, lots of principles in
Susie Green: terms of human rights are being are being trampled
Susie Green: on by, you know, this process.
Susie Green: And what about the control
Susie Green: group that they're saying needs to be done? Yeah. The double blind. Yeah. The double
Joanne Lockwood: blinds. So That's not gonna work. They're just those kids are just gonna their their
Susie Green: puberty is gonna continue on, and they're just gonna drop out of the studies.
Susie Green: And the emotional impact on those young people thinking that they've
Susie Green: gone through all of this process, jumped through all of these hoops, then being
Susie Green: accepted, and then their puberty progresses
Susie Green: regardless. That emotional impact is gonna have
Susie Green: that. That's a huge safeguarding risk. It's completely
Susie Green: unethical. And it just it just
Susie Green: highlights the fact that actually this medication can't be that bad if they're
Susie Green: gonna do a clinical trial on it. If it was as dangerous as they say
Susie Green: it is, then they couldn't they couldn't feasibly
Susie Green: suggest that that a clinical trial is a is a good idea. And the fact
Susie Green: is is that there's lots and lots and lots of evidence on,
Susie Green: how puberty blockers assist in gender affirming healthcare.
Susie Green: They just chose in the CAS report to disqualify all of those
Susie Green: studies because it didn't fit their narrative. And we know
Susie Green: that the CAS report is a political document because Cammiebad
Susie Green: not stated as such that it was done deliberately, and
Susie Green: trans people were not part of any, of the,
Susie Green: team. So and their their re
Susie Green: reason for doing that, that, the reason that they said that they didn't have trans
Susie Green: people is because they didn't want, you know, it to be influenced.
Susie Green: Now if you did a if you did a trial on if you did a
Susie Green: a review on diabetes care, would having somebody with
Susie Green: diabetes mean that that was that was, you know, biased.
Susie Green: If you did a trial on autism, having members of, you know, of the
Susie Green: group that were doing that review, you know, would having somebody
Susie Green: who who actually was autistic on that, would that be biased? No, it
Susie Green: wouldn't. It's only trans people. And it's only trans
Susie Green: kids and trans women who have been subjected to this sort of
Susie Green: narrative. And, you know, it's being debunked. The
Susie Green: cast review is being debunked internationally, locally.
Susie Green: There's so much evidence every
Susie Green: day, more comes to light in terms of looking at the method the
Susie Green: methodology, the the conclusions that they've reached, the
Susie Green: the stuff that was said in there that has absolutely no basis
Susie Green: in science or any research to back it up, that's
Susie Green: just been popped in there as an opinion and has been taken as
Susie Green: this holy grail of what of what trans health care
Susie Green: for trans youth should be like. And it's a biased
Susie Green: political document with an end game in sight, which which has come to
Susie Green: pass. And I was really hoping that
Susie Green: labor would would have, you know, the,
Susie Green: you know, the foresight to look at this and go, this smells a little bit
Susie Green: odd. You know? This isn't quite right. This doesn't seem to be, you
Susie Green: know, led by the community. Nobody from the community was a
Susie Green: part of this. Perhaps we should take this with a pinch of salt. And the
Susie Green: fact that they're pushing the same narrative despite everything that's
Susie Green: been said about it is a real concern.
Susie Green: Real concern. Trans youth, though, is it? I mean, we look at
Joanne Lockwood: adult trans support, their gender identity clinics. The the
Joanne Lockwood: waiting list, they're now seeing people who are referred in
Joanne Lockwood: 2018, 2019. If you join the waiting list now, you're looking
Joanne Lockwood: at 6 plus years, maybe even longer for first appointment.
Susie Green: Think it I don't even think it's 6 plus years. I think it was extrapolated
Susie Green: in, that if you join the waiting list now, you'll
Susie Green: be seen in 20 years because the numbers that have been seen off the waiting
Susie Green: list that are coming off the with waiting list and the people that are being
Susie Green: added, You're looking at 20 years. How how
Susie Green: how You stand no chance at No. No chance. No. You
Joanne Lockwood: gotta go private. You gotta you gotta that it means you have to have privilege.
Joanne Lockwood: You have to have the the means and the wherewithal. Even private appointments aren't quick
Joanne Lockwood: because the limited availability of specialists in that in that area
Joanne Lockwood: as well. Yeah. It it is it is horrendous. And, I
Joanne Lockwood: I know many adults who are holding their heads
Joanne Lockwood: in their hands, going, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna handle this?
Joanne Lockwood: There there are very few places in the with the UK perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: that you can go for support these days for for free. GPs don't wanna touch
Joanne Lockwood: you now. I've got lots of friends who have been,
Joanne Lockwood: deprescribed, if that's a word, from their GP, because it's like, oh, it's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit risky. I'm not sure what I should do. Everybody needs to have a license.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay. All trans. This is this is a risky area. I'm I've got
Joanne Lockwood: justification now to be out of this and say, I I'm not I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: comfortable. And that's the impact of these studies and the the rhetoric, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yeah. And I think the thing is that GPs routinely prescribe
Susie Green: stuff that is, like, a 1000 times more toxic than HRT
Susie Green: routinely to cisgender people day in, day out. Yet
Susie Green: they're, you know, they go, oh, this is a specialist area. It's
Susie Green: not. It's really not. It's not.
Susie Green: But All the women I spoke to about menopause support, it it's clear that
Joanne Lockwood: GPs are just not comfortable talking about estrogen,
Joanne Lockwood: progesterone, prolactin, doing blood
Joanne Lockwood: tests, finding out about people, let alone testosterone. So
Joanne Lockwood: that there's not a lot of yeah. They always wanna palm it off onto an
Joanne Lockwood: endocrinologist or they want someone to come and tell them that it's
Joanne Lockwood: okay. Yeah. People pass talk about these
Joanne Lockwood: hormones as if they are powerful drugs.
Joanne Lockwood: It's it's a it's a part of the natural body. Okay. They've been
Joanne Lockwood: synthesized from cow urine or pig urine or bioidentical, whatever
Joanne Lockwood: we're talking about. But they're not drugs as such. They're not they're not
Joanne Lockwood: chemicals we're putting in our body. They're natural occurring hormones.
Susie Green: Yep. And using them to make people feel comfortable in in
Susie Green: their own bodies. Why why is that such a big deal? I heard
Susie Green: the stories, obviously, not stories. I heard the reports
Susie Green: of the GP surgeries who
Susie Green: just took all of their trans patients off their books and went, we're not we're
Susie Green: not supporting you anymore. Blatant discrimination
Susie Green: as as as evidenced by the fact that it
Susie Green: said it said, just to complete, we are not dealing with
Susie Green: trans people anymore. I hear it all the
Susie Green: time, people telling us about their care being
Susie Green: refused, that they've been on HRT for years, and
Susie Green: the GP has always been, like, really supportive and not had an issue, and then
Susie Green: suddenly an addict comes down from the practice, you know, manager
Susie Green: or whatever, and and they're changing the rules and
Susie Green: suddenly their access to to hormones is removed.
Susie Green: 1,000 are being forced into self medication. And
Susie Green: for for young people who don't have the means to access private
Susie Green: care and for adults who don't have to means to access private care,
Susie Green: it means that they're starting using dangerous,
Susie Green: access means to be able to get what they need.
Susie Green: It's it it doesn't stop people being trans, and it
Susie Green: doesn't stop people seeking, to be able to feel more
Susie Green: comfortable with the use of, you know, HRT hormones,
Susie Green: etcetera. What it does is it forces people down roots that actually
Susie Green: will will harm them. And that's despicable.
Joanne Lockwood: There's a a scene in, a hit Netflix,
Joanne Lockwood: drama, Orange the New Black, where Laverne
Joanne Lockwood: Cox, trans character I can't
Joanne Lockwood: remember her character in the in the show, but Laverne Cox is suddenly
Joanne Lockwood: denied, HRT medication, which she goes up to the counter, and they said,
Joanne Lockwood: no. You can't have that anymore. And the panic set in in,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm gonna grow hair. I'm gonna this and no. It's just gonna happen. It's like
Joanne Lockwood: and that was in a prison scenario where you got no agency at all. So
Joanne Lockwood: imagine how it is like if you're in America, the judicial system, or even
Joanne Lockwood: the military, or in this country lacking privilege. That
Joanne Lockwood: moment, you'll think, hang on a minute. My my life has been okay. It's been
Joanne Lockwood: normal. It's I'm getting all the things. Suddenly, it's
Joanne Lockwood: gone. Yeah. I mean, it's no different to women finding that
Joanne Lockwood: there's no more estrogen gel or patches on the market. And something their
Joanne Lockwood: their their menopause symptoms are gonna come back with a vengeance.
Joanne Lockwood: And it was there then. It's exactly the same. Yep.
Susie Green: And we speak to people every day,
Susie Green: every day who who are in that position, who are
Susie Green: suddenly finding themselves with with this
Susie Green: I don't I don't I I just I I sympathize
Susie Green: and empathize with them so much because
Susie Green: how how must it feel to suddenly have something
Susie Green: that made you feel yourself, made you feel comfortable with yourself and enabled you
Susie Green: to just get on with life and be suddenly taken away. And and
Susie Green: then as you say, that panic that panic, that feeling
Susie Green: of, well, what am I gonna do now? And that feeling that that your
Susie Green: body is gonna betray you. Like, as you say, like,
Susie Green: menopausal treatment and care. It's
Susie Green: to remove that like it is is is so irresponsible
Susie Green: and dangerous. And the impact on people's
Susie Green: lives is, oh, it's heartbreaking.
Susie Green: Heartbreaking conversations that I have every day are heartbreaking.
Joanne Lockwood: So this this is where your your vision and health came
Joanne Lockwood: from, isn't it? Where the to create an organization
Joanne Lockwood: that can enable people to safely access
Joanne Lockwood: the support they need. Not just not just medication, but
Joanne Lockwood: but support as well. It's not it's not just handing out things. It's about
Joanne Lockwood: talking to people and listening to people. So do you want to tell us a
Joanne Lockwood: bit more about what where the idea come from in your own words
Joanne Lockwood: and and the problem it's solving and and how maybe some of the
Joanne Lockwood: challenges you're having getting it going as well? Yeah. I
Susie Green: Anne Anne Health sort of in terms of
Susie Green: the idea. Being
Susie Green: part of Mermaids, being CEO of Mermaids, talking to
Susie Green: families, young people, seeing what was happening in the UK with
Susie Green: regards to access to health care for young people. I've seen
Susie Green: thousands of of families struggle,
Susie Green: with the NHS provision, but also access to private
Susie Green: healthcare because the only other provider is is gender
Susie Green: GP. So when I left
Susie Green: Mermaiz at the end of November 2022, I went to work for gender GP. I
Susie Green: knew Helen Webberly previously, when
Susie Green: she started providing health care for trans people and then started to extend
Susie Green: that to young people. And I really respected
Susie Green: who she was and what she did, and the amount of
Susie Green: attacks, and obviously the challenges that she faced and her
Susie Green: husband faced because of that. So I went to work for Gender GP
Susie Green: and sort of quickly realized that it it wasn't for me because
Susie Green: what I saw, what I thought was was
Susie Green: within Gender GP didn't come to pass, and it was clear that
Susie Green: they weren't providing personalized, appropriately,
Susie Green: medically overseen care. So whilst I was in there,
Susie Green: Lizzie, my cofounder, co director, and I
Susie Green: have known each other for years. And we
Susie Green: started talking about there's got to be something better than this.
Susie Green: There's got to be something that is actually as affordable as we
Susie Green: can make it whilst also ensuring that there is, like, the quality of
Susie Green: care with the proper medical oversight.
Susie Green: And we wanted to get it going. And we we tried for from,
Susie Green: like, the middle of of 2023, really up until the
Susie Green: beginning of 2024. And and we've kinda given up about getting
Susie Green: getting it started because we needed seed money to get going.
Susie Green: And we were so frustrated because we could see how much the community
Susie Green: desperately needed an alternative, especially for trans
Susie Green: youth who were only had, as I say, the NHS, which is broken,
Susie Green: and even more so now. And, obviously, gender
Susie Green: GP, and we we knew there needed to be an alternative, but we just didn't
Susie Green: have didn't have the means to get it going. And then we had
Susie Green: a an amazing gift from a benefactor who
Susie Green: said that they believed in what we were doing and that they wanted to help
Susie Green: us. So they gave us, like, a chunk of cash to get going. So that's
Susie Green: really how that started. So that was that was back in
Susie Green: sort of March, April of last year. So we we did a lot of
Susie Green: stuff behind the scenes. We worked with some trial patients to make sure that our
Susie Green: process was was robust. We tried to get GMC
Susie Green: doctors involved, and and we had a a couple of GMC registered
Susie Green: doctors who were really, really keen, who really were supportive of the trans community, but
Susie Green: they got warned off from working with a private health care
Susie Green: company, particularly working with with trans young
Susie Green: people. So in the end, we replicated
Susie Green: to a degree the model that gender GP uses in terms of EU prescribers.
Susie Green: But unlike gender GP, everybody sees their doctor. So literally part
Susie Green: of the process is that you see your doctor and you see them regularly,
Susie Green: and they, and they will talk you through your care
Susie Green: and any questions, etcetera. So, yeah, we got started at
Susie Green: the beginning of of 2024 with that amazing gift.
Susie Green: Since then, it's gone from strength to strength. We came out
Susie Green: as being, you know, to the public in July just as a
Susie Green: as obviously, just after the puberty blocker ban had had been put into
Susie Green: place. So we came out because we wanted
Susie Green: people to know that there was an alternative and that, actually, we we were
Susie Green: working towards providing a safe and legal route for people to be able to access
Susie Green: puberty blockers so that the criminalizing of of parents,
Susie Green: who just wanna help their kids would would, that we
Susie Green: would find a way to to help them to do that legally.
Susie Green: And, yeah, it's interesting. I
Susie Green: think it's probably the best word. It's interesting
Susie Green: how much, how much abuse, is aimed at
Susie Green: us. But, again, like I said about me in general and and
Susie Green: Lizzie's very robust, we we don't care. We we see we
Susie Green: see the difference our services are making to
Susie Green: trans people of all ages who need us, and
Susie Green: we're gonna you know, we're here for the duration. We believe in what we're
Susie Green: doing. We also are a registered, nonprofit
Susie Green: as well. So we do also provide some subsidized
Susie Green: care and are looking to expand on that. And as we
Susie Green: as an organization continue to grow and as we
Susie Green: have more, surpluses and not for
Susie Green: profit, that will go to subsidize people's care who can't
Susie Green: afford it. So we wish we could provide free free
Susie Green: of care free of charge care for everybody. It's not
Susie Green: possible. It's you know, we just can't.
Susie Green: But we will try and help people as much as we
Susie Green: can. That one, to simplify touching wood,
Joanne Lockwood: you haven't had anyone challenging you legally
Joanne Lockwood: yet, have you? No. But that's we got some
Susie Green: very, very, very good legal advice at the very
Susie Green: beginning. So
Susie Green: we worked with David Locke, who is in terms of health
Susie Green: care legislation legally. He's, he's sort of top
Susie Green: of the trade. So we commissioned him and his team to
Susie Green: look at what we were doing, the model that we were we were doing, and
Susie Green: and to give us, like, their legal oversight into the best ways
Susie Green: to ensure that we were as robust as possible.
Susie Green: And I think that advice as as,
Susie Green: you know, been very timely, bearing in mind the
Susie Green: blocker ban, etcetera, and also is a protective factor
Susie Green: because we know what we need to do to ensure that we're falling within the
Susie Green: letter of the law, that we're not encouraging people to to
Susie Green: do, you know, to to do criminal activities.
Susie Green: We are literally talking to people about the way that they
Susie Green: can get the support that they need, and we're doing it in a way
Susie Green: that is perfectly, legitimately within
Susie Green: within the scope of as a law. Yeah. Sometimes when I'm listening to people
Joanne Lockwood: like West Street and other people talking about puberty blocker
Joanne Lockwood: ban, I often wonder if they're they're aiming at at
Joanne Lockwood: gender GP primarily. It it sounds like that
Joanne Lockwood: when they're they're not saying it explicitly, but they're kind of saying, well, these offshore
Joanne Lockwood: doctors based on the other side of the world, we wanna stop them doing this,
Joanne Lockwood: this, and this. And it's over that sounds like sounds like
Joanne Lockwood: gender GP rhetoric. And It's it's so is.
Susie Green: It's so is. And, unfortunately, the the
Susie Green: the the reports coming out of gender GP means that
Susie Green: some of that concern is actually legitimate, in
Susie Green: terms of, you know, Helen Webberly has stated clearly for the
Susie Green: record and has done a Times interview where she talks openly
Susie Green: about the fact that gender GPs run entirely on AI systems.
Susie Green: So health care recommendations,
Susie Green: except that it's all based on AI bots and an algorithm that she's
Susie Green: put in for people. You know? So it's your
Susie Green: health care is not overseen by a real person. It's a shame because our GeneralGP
Joanne Lockwood: helped me out 2014, 2015 in the early
Joanne Lockwood: days when you when you were probably dealing with Helen yourself on these things.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yep. So the yeah. They they
Joanne Lockwood: certainly helped me self well, they took me off of real self
Joanne Lockwood: med, which was, you know, Internet drugs and all those sort of things. It's all
Joanne Lockwood: about and then at least got me into something that was a
Joanne Lockwood: known source, from a UK online pharmacy. And
Joanne Lockwood: then the GIC took over with a shared care agreement with GP.
Joanne Lockwood: I was quite fortunate that I was probably before the
Joanne Lockwood: problem just started developing. So yeah.
Susie Green: And I and I think I think AI bots don't have I mean, they
Susie Green: have their place in medicine for, you know, sort of like
Susie Green: automating systems, etcetera. But for health care, for
Susie Green: recommending health care, overseeing blood tests, etcetera, that's that's not their
Susie Green: place. You know? We need real life people. And
Susie Green: we we run a helpline, so 9 to 5, Monday to Friday,
Susie Green: and a web chat option so people can get in touch with us. And
Susie Green: the actual relief that people feel when they speak to a
Susie Green: real life person is immense. And we we get
Susie Green: it all the time. We have people calling up and going, oh my goodness. I
Susie Green: didn't actually believe that I'd be able to get through to a real life person,
Susie Green: that I'd be able to actually talk to somebody. And,
Susie Green: you know, we offer that that support from a helpline basis in
Susie Green: terms of, like, general support as well as obviously support in terms of
Susie Green: the medical process inside of it. Now one of
Susie Green: the things that I experienced as a parent
Susie Green: when I had to go through unconventional means to get my daughter
Susie Green: medication, I had to take her, which is, like, ironic
Susie Green: now, really. I had to take her to Boston in America to be seen by
Susie Green: doctor Norman Spack at the Boston Children's Hospital.
Susie Green: And that feeling of of
Susie Green: being alone and and being isolated and doing something that's going
Susie Green: against what the NHS was telling me because I was told that she had
Susie Green: to go through a full now puberty to be sure that that's not
Susie Green: what she wanted. And I was like, that's that's insane.
Susie Green: That's insane. What you so you're saying that she has to go through all of
Susie Green: this in terms of that emotional turmoil,
Susie Green: torture, frankly, for her. And
Susie Green: you're saying that she has to do that so that so that you can
Susie Green: actually then acknowledge the fact that that wasn't the best thing for her.
Susie Green: Madness. So, yeah, so we had to follow that route. But the one thing that
Susie Green: I had with the Boston Children's Hospital, etcetera, was I had
Susie Green: somebody to talk to. I had a really responsive doctor. Norman was
Susie Green: amazing. And to be able to talk to somebody,
Susie Green: to be able to get that reassurance, to be able to
Susie Green: have those questions that come up answered was invaluable,
Susie Green: which is why we are really clear that what we do at ANA
Susie Green: is we're here for you. And we won't charge you just
Susie Green: to talk to a real life person. That's just part of the care that you
Susie Green: get, and we want you to feel comfortable, and we want you to feel safe.
Joanne Lockwood: That's what you're saying there is, like, we want your child, Jackie,
Joanne Lockwood: to go through male puberty to prove that it's the right
Joanne Lockwood: decision for her. I'm just thinking as you're saying now, I was thinking, look at
Joanne Lockwood: all the rhetoric around trans people, I. E. Trans women. It's
Joanne Lockwood: it's not being around a bush here, trans women in sport.
Joanne Lockwood: The the current IOC and other regulations, plastics,
Joanne Lockwood: you name it, all the rugby, everyone's come out with a rule. Basically, they're saying,
Joanne Lockwood: if you've been through male puberty or then you're ineligible.
Joanne Lockwood: So what we're saying is, what we need to do is go through your puberty
Joanne Lockwood: as normal, work out when you get to the age of 15 that it
Joanne Lockwood: wasn't right, and preclude yourself from
Joanne Lockwood: ever being a professional sports person in any field, just in
Joanne Lockwood: case you may be wrong. Whereas puberty blockers could have
Joanne Lockwood: just given you that little bit of breathing time, let your brain mature a bit.
Joanne Lockwood: You could take over a test drive, make sure you're comfortable with it. And
Joanne Lockwood: then you you haven't precluded your the rest of your life
Joanne Lockwood: from that decision because not doing
Joanne Lockwood: something isn't a zero sum game either. So it it's it's it's it's It's
Susie Green: not a neutral act. To deny access to medication, to
Susie Green: deny access to care is not a neutral act. And in fact, for
Susie Green: trans young people, as we know from the reaction of families
Susie Green: to to the blocker ban, is actually disastrous. And
Susie Green: there's there's blood on West Street's hands already. There are
Susie Green: young people who are not with us anymore because of what is
Susie Green: happening with access to care through n a through the NHS.
Susie Green: And it's incredibly sad.
Susie Green: Incredibly sad. And coupled with that, the empowering the
Joanne Lockwood: anti trans rhetoric through this as well. So it's not it's
Joanne Lockwood: not just the action of blocking. It's also the enabling
Joanne Lockwood: of the rhetoric and green lighting it in the mainstream media,
Joanne Lockwood: in GPs, in teachers, in people in authority.
Joanne Lockwood: It's the whole of society is now being green lighted that the trans
Joanne Lockwood: people are bad. Being trans is bad. Yeah. Being trans is bad. A
Susie Green: cisgender outcome is a preferred outcome. And that's what
Susie Green: comes through so plainly from within that, you know, the CAS
Susie Green: review and the other rhetoric that's out there is, you know, let
Susie Green: let's try push for a cisgender outcome. Let's try and
Susie Green: push you in a direction that means that you're not trans.
Susie Green: And that's conversion therapy. That's conversion practices.
Susie Green: It's and that's what the these new centers are doing as well. And we've heard
Susie Green: reports from families about the kind of discussions that
Susie Green: their kids are being subjected to, which shows that
Susie Green: what's being practiced on them is is conversion practices. They're trying
Susie Green: they're basically trying to persuade, people that they
Susie Green: should be comfortable with their with their sex assigned at birth and that,
Susie Green: you know, to be trans is a poor outcome. And and it's
Susie Green: and it's just, honest I it
Susie Green: just makes me I am I feel like I'm in a
Susie Green: constant state of rage at the moment.
Susie Green: And I have to give my head a shake every now and again and sit
Susie Green: back and go, right. Okay. You're doing everything that you can. You're
Susie Green: working alongside people who really believe in this. You
Susie Green: know? You're doing what you can, when you
Susie Green: can, and you're not giving up. So that's all I can
Susie Green: do. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It it it is. And I
Joanne Lockwood: get frustrated that people want everyone to
Joanne Lockwood: be normal. And whether that's anti
Joanne Lockwood: people, gay people, bi people, or anyone who doesn't fit this
Joanne Lockwood: kind of biblical version of of of who you should
Joanne Lockwood: be. Even even the bible allegedly
Joanne Lockwood: is 2000 years old, way before today's society was
Joanne Lockwood: ever even conceived. So how we can reference things back to this
Joanne Lockwood: these traditional values that were never really in existence anyway. They're
Joanne Lockwood: just people with power and privilege trying to control the masses
Joanne Lockwood: through, through rules. Yep. Yep.
Susie Green: And and again, it it's about, you know,
Susie Green: look over there. Don't look at what I'm doing. Look
Susie Green: over there. I blame that person over there. Don't blame me with
Susie Green: my stack of cash who's basically
Susie Green: pushing society in a in a direction that's really harmful
Susie Green: for the majority of its citizens. Look over there and and pick on
Susie Green: that that person there rather than actually paying attention
Susie Green: to what I'm doing. I've got a a fair few friends around the world, and,
Joanne Lockwood: I haven't managed to confer any of them to being trans. You're
Susie Green: obviously not working hard enough. Yeah. I mean, I've
Susie Green: I've been told that, you know, I trans ed my
Susie Green: daughter because I didn't want a gay son.
Susie Green: And, my gay son finds that a little bit odd,
Susie Green: but, you know. I'm a huge fan of a of a protest singer called Grace
Joanne Lockwood: Petrie. I was at one of her, I think it was a comedy show, and
Joanne Lockwood: she stood up in the beginning and said, she's really, really frustrated.
Joanne Lockwood: Why hasn't the trans for grade come and come for her? Because
Joanne Lockwood: she's a butch lesbian. She's out and proud butch lesbian. She she's got, I'm an
Joanne Lockwood: ideal candidate to being converted to be trans. So why isn't anyone trying?
Joanne Lockwood: Why isn't everyone trying to convert to be trans? Where are you? I love her
Susie Green: stuff. I love her stuff. She's amazing. And, yeah, again,
Susie Green: you know, yeah, I'm I'm I've trans my kid. We're transing
Susie Green: kids. We're you know, I mean, what? You know,
Susie Green: I couldn't I couldn't make my kid eat a piece, never mind make
Susie Green: her be trans. I mean, and my and my gay son is like, well, you
Susie Green: clearly didn't try hard enough with me, mom. So, you know, you you know,
Susie Green: didn't do the job right with me. If if I did, then I'd have 2
Susie Green: trans kids, not just 1. Bizarre. I think that's
Susie Green: bizarre. Yeah. The other thing that frustrates me is that,
Joanne Lockwood: if I came out as neurodiverse,
Joanne Lockwood: on the spectrum, ASD, whatever it may be, it'd be, oh, you're
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiverse. It's fine. But I I do I kind of self
Joanne Lockwood: declare myself as as having a neurodiversity, which is my gender. It's just
Joanne Lockwood: my brain thinks differently. But it's the wrong type of
Joanne Lockwood: neurodiversity. It's not not not trendy enough
Joanne Lockwood: for for for the for the, for society. But, yeah, it
Joanne Lockwood: it's people are making judgments based on lack of knowledge
Joanne Lockwood: Yep. Manipulation And it's not and it's
Susie Green: not involved in their lives, so I don't know whether or not it's
Susie Green: a distraction from their day to day that they can pick on, you
Susie Green: know, somebody else. Or it's I mean, somebody said to me
Susie Green: that it's not. It's just some people find trans people icky, so
Susie Green: they don't like it. So therefore, their reaction to it, because they don't understand it
Susie Green: and it doesn't affect anybody that they love, their
Susie Green: response to it is is to to push in the opposite
Susie Green: direction. And that's a really good way of
Joanne Lockwood: describing it icky. And unfortunately or fortunately,
Joanne Lockwood: that's kind of the definition of transphobia, isn't it? It's a fear or
Joanne Lockwood: this ickiness, a dislike, a distaste for based on a bias.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's that's exactly what it is. And
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. And I've I've I've I've got people in my life
Joanne Lockwood: that maybe not use the word icky. They've just described me as
Joanne Lockwood: as as not having enough feminine energy for them. And,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Whatever. I mean Whatever that is. I mean, oh, wait. What
Susie Green: what is that? What is that? I mean, they could say the same about,
Susie Green: you know, a large percentage of the cisgender
Susie Green: woman population. They might look at me and go, you're not feminine. You haven't got
Susie Green: the feminine traits. Blah blah. What a load of absolute
Susie Green: bullshit. It's bullshit. Bollocks. Yeah. We can use
Joanne Lockwood: those words. Don't worry. Oh, that's okay then. I'm very sweary normally. I've been really
Susie Green: polite. That's okay. Someone normally gets the f word in early, but,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, we we've done alright today. I think that but it's not it's
Joanne Lockwood: not a problem sometimes is if you look at the media
Joanne Lockwood: representation, when you're trying to talk about trans people having
Joanne Lockwood: an opinion, it's become activists, lobby
Joanne Lockwood: groups, testers, and all the imagery is around young trans
Joanne Lockwood: people with banners, flags, t shirts, burning effigies, all this kind
Joanne Lockwood: of stuff. You talk to people who have a a less than trans positive view.
Joanne Lockwood: View. They're in suits, ties called professor or doctor or something. So we're
Joanne Lockwood: trying to paint trans people as anarchists and the
Joanne Lockwood: people who want to put reason back in society as being the
Joanne Lockwood: logical, thoughtful, professional side. And that doesn't help. You
Joanne Lockwood: know, the the mainstream media are pumping this asymmetry at us all the time as
Joanne Lockwood: well. All the time. I mean, the number of anti trans articles,
Susie Green: bearing in mind the size of the public there's more articles
Susie Green: that are painting trans people as, you know, we we've talked
Susie Green: about this already a little bit, as as dangerous, as
Susie Green: predatory, as a as liars, essentially. That there's more of
Susie Green: them than there are actually trans people in society. Over the last
Susie Green: few years, there are more individual articles that have been published throughout
Susie Green: the mainstream media than there are actual trans people, which is
Susie Green: unbelievable. It's crazy, isn't it? It's crazy. It's absolutely
Susie Green: crazy. 2 each. 2 articles each. It is. And I don't know
Susie Green: how many have been written about me. I'd but yeah. I think, yeah,
Susie Green: there's, and, obviously, you've been in a similar position with
Susie Green: with being somebody who's openly out as a
Susie Green: trans person. It just me as a very visible
Susie Green: ally and transadjacent is how I con myself.
Susie Green: Yeah. It's it's yeah. It's insane the amount of
Susie Green: attention we get literally just wanting to to support people and to
Susie Green: be able to get on and live their lives. That's all we wanna do is
Joanne Lockwood: get on with our lives. Thank you, Susie. That's it. Absolutely. Fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: How could people get hold of you? Tell us a bit more about, the
Joanne Lockwood: website. Anything else? Details? Yeah. So all
Susie Green: of, I mean, it's really simple. It's like just
Susie Green: www.ann.health. And if you go
Susie Green: onto our website, it's got the number for the helpline,
Susie Green: and it's got the web chat link so you can click on that and you
Susie Green: can, you know, you can make contact with a real live person, 9 to 5,
Susie Green: Monday to Friday. You can email at
Susie Green: hello at https://anne.health. And we've
Susie Green: got, you know, a team of amazing people
Susie Green: who are either all trans or transadjacent, on the
Susie Green: team who really care about the lives
Susie Green: of the people that we're supporting. So if you wanna get in touch with us,
Susie Green: please do, and you will be contacted back by a human being.
Joanne Lockwood: So if you're listening to this, it's https://anne.health. Yes. It's not that dot
Joanne Lockwood: health is one of these newfangled domain names. It's not dotco dot health dotco.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: It's just ann No. anne dot health. Health. That's it.
Joanne Lockwood: Enter. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Susie,
Joanne Lockwood: it's been an absolute pleasure, and thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
Susie Green: It's been lovely to speak to you. And at the same time
Susie Green: as, like, vaguely depressing talking about all this stuff is
Susie Green: also nice to know that there's like minded people out there who are
Susie Green: fighting for the right things. Yes. We are. Well,
Joanne Lockwood: lots of transadjacent, lots of trans allies, lots of people out there
Joanne Lockwood: with lots of love, lots of support in their art. And as I keep
Joanne Lockwood: saying to people, we just gotta hold the rope. Hold the rope. Don't need to
Joanne Lockwood: pull anybody over. Don't need to win. Just hold the rope, and the world will
Joanne Lockwood: keep turning, and things will get better. Yeah. Yep. I
Susie Green: agree. And just need to need
Susie Green: to keep hoping and supporting each other. And if you see somebody,
Susie Green: you know, who's struggling, please reach out. And sorry. It's Susie
Joanne Lockwood: from Anne. Thank you. Thank you. As
Joanne Lockwood: we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return
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Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.