WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:19.205 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:19.825 --> 00:00:23.425 belonging, and societal transformation. Ever 5 00:00:23.425 --> 00:00:27.265 wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not 6 00:00:27.265 --> 00:00:30.680 only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. 7 00:00:31.380 --> 00:00:35.300 Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the 8 00:00:35.300 --> 00:00:38.600 status quo, and share stories that resonate 9 00:00:38.820 --> 00:00:42.785 deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping 10 00:00:42.785 --> 00:00:46.385 your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.385 --> 00:00:49.925 connect, reflect, and inspire action 12 00:00:49.985 --> 00:00:53.684 together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation 13 00:00:53.745 --> 00:00:55.344 too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.344 --> 00:00:59.320 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to 15 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.700 share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:07.160 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:10.860 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:17.825 --> 00:01:21.345 Today is episode 156, one hundred and fifty 19 00:01:21.345 --> 00:01:25.105 six, with the title, Speaking Truth to 20 00:01:25.105 --> 00:01:29.045 Power. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Saba Ali. 21 00:01:29.590 --> 00:01:33.530 Saba is a public speaker, a critical friend who champions 22 00:01:33.990 --> 00:01:37.850 justice for marginalized communities, focusing on intersectionality, 23 00:01:38.470 --> 00:01:42.310 cultural abuse, and the lived realities of queer South 24 00:01:42.310 --> 00:01:46.125 Asian individuals. When I asked Saba to describe her superpower, she said it 25 00:01:46.125 --> 00:01:49.905 is her ability to amplify marginalized voices 26 00:01:50.445 --> 00:01:54.205 into institutional change. Hello, Saba. Welcome to the 27 00:01:54.205 --> 00:01:58.205 show. Hi, Joanne. Nice to be here. Lovely to get you on. 28 00:01:58.205 --> 00:02:02.170 We we first met couple of years ago. We did both did a panel together, 29 00:02:02.170 --> 00:02:06.009 didn't we? An online panel, I think. Yes. Yeah. And, we bumped 30 00:02:06.009 --> 00:02:10.009 into each other at events like Trans in the City. I think the mayor 31 00:02:10.009 --> 00:02:13.290 of London had a had a event a couple of years ago. We bumped each 32 00:02:13.290 --> 00:02:16.735 other there. And more recently at, 33 00:02:17.435 --> 00:02:21.115 Beyond Reflections, award night, where you won the 34 00:02:21.115 --> 00:02:25.115 award. Hey. Go you. I 35 00:02:25.115 --> 00:02:26.335 did. I won, 36 00:02:29.020 --> 00:02:32.940 allyship for the trans community Yeah. Which was 37 00:02:32.940 --> 00:02:36.700 completely unexpected. But, yeah, very honored to 38 00:02:36.700 --> 00:02:40.239 receive that, especially as it was chosen from the community. 39 00:02:41.485 --> 00:02:45.245 Yeah. I was thinking if you're up for an award, everybody else, no chance. Saba's 40 00:02:45.245 --> 00:02:49.084 got this. Thank you. Yeah. No. We we keep bumping it to each other, 41 00:02:49.084 --> 00:02:53.004 which is great. Yeah. It's always nice to meet Lovely. Like minded people. And it 42 00:02:53.004 --> 00:02:56.740 sounds like we're gonna be seeing a lot more each other through the RSA and 43 00:02:56.740 --> 00:03:00.580 some of the events and the LGBT community within the RSA. So I'm really, really 44 00:03:00.580 --> 00:03:04.420 looking forward to getting involved with those things. Yeah. Absolutely. I, 45 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:07.720 I have definitely got you penciled in for a few things. 46 00:03:09.395 --> 00:03:12.355 So if you listen to this and it and it floats your boat, if you 47 00:03:12.355 --> 00:03:15.955 don't remember the RSA, firstly, join, become a fellow of the RSA. Yep. And 48 00:03:15.955 --> 00:03:19.415 then track either myself or or Sabi down, and we can, 49 00:03:20.115 --> 00:03:23.075 Saba down, and we can, get into that and and find 50 00:03:23.970 --> 00:03:27.970 and get you in, yeah, basically. Yeah. And I should add, actually, for those 51 00:03:27.970 --> 00:03:31.030 of you who don't know, RSS, the Royal Society of Arts. 52 00:03:33.170 --> 00:03:36.655 Education and commerce or something, isn't it? It's it's got it's got a long bit 53 00:03:36.655 --> 00:03:39.775 on the end, which I never remember which way around it is, but, yeah, of 54 00:03:39.775 --> 00:03:43.694 arts and something else. Yeah. So me and Joanne are both part 55 00:03:43.694 --> 00:03:47.555 of their, LGBTQIA network, which is 56 00:03:47.694 --> 00:03:51.400 doing some amazing stuff. Very excited to be part of 57 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.239 that. Which, I don't wanna focus on what's going on in the world too 58 00:03:55.239 --> 00:03:59.160 deeply to the moment, but there's a lot of stuff going on that we need 59 00:03:59.160 --> 00:04:02.895 to raise the the profile. So it's a bit a bit 60 00:04:02.895 --> 00:04:06.175 pooey out there at the moment. Is it for for queer folk? It's not great. 61 00:04:06.175 --> 00:04:09.695 It's not great. I think, I think that's one of the reasons actually 62 00:04:09.695 --> 00:04:13.695 why I'm really championing what the RSA are doing because they are 63 00:04:13.695 --> 00:04:17.649 a global community. So the network is a great global community. But 64 00:04:17.649 --> 00:04:21.110 I think at the moment, it's so important for the 65 00:04:21.169 --> 00:04:25.110 LGBT plus community to kind of unite and get together 66 00:04:25.169 --> 00:04:28.870 and sort of try and put our differences aside and, 67 00:04:29.705 --> 00:04:33.465 you know, come together and work together. We really need to sort of support each 68 00:04:33.465 --> 00:04:37.385 other. And even if that's only in small groups that, you know, we we need 69 00:04:37.385 --> 00:04:41.085 to be there for each other at the moment. That support and compassion 70 00:04:41.385 --> 00:04:45.330 is so important. Was there a a point in your life where you 71 00:04:45.330 --> 00:04:48.930 thought, actually, this is my calling. I wanna go and 72 00:04:48.930 --> 00:04:52.690 champion marginalized voices, talk about intersectionality. What was 73 00:04:52.690 --> 00:04:56.210 it apart from being a, well, at the time, a young black Muslim woman with 74 00:04:56.210 --> 00:04:59.945 a queer tendency, I guess? Apart from that, what's what got you into it? 75 00:04:59.945 --> 00:05:03.945 So my childhood lived experience is actually child 76 00:05:03.945 --> 00:05:07.465 abuse and cultural abuse. So I have no 77 00:05:07.465 --> 00:05:11.385 recollection of the first sort of nine, ten years of my life. I 78 00:05:11.385 --> 00:05:15.360 know it was very abusive. I have, like, the odd generally 79 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.360 have flashbacks, but I had the odd recollection. And my mother 80 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.960 was my perpetrator, and I know that she had mental health 81 00:05:22.960 --> 00:05:26.720 issues, and she's passed now. And there were quite a few 82 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:29.915 occasions where, you know, she just 83 00:05:30.775 --> 00:05:34.375 we're we're just she just didn't like me for whatever 84 00:05:34.375 --> 00:05:37.595 reason. She you know, like I said, she had her own issues. And 85 00:05:38.455 --> 00:05:42.135 I was a seventies child, and in the seventies, there weren't really any 86 00:05:42.135 --> 00:05:45.900 support organizations or groups. You had ChildLine and the 87 00:05:45.900 --> 00:05:49.520 NSPCC, and that was it. But, obviously, growing up in a 88 00:05:49.820 --> 00:05:53.820 religious, conservative household, you know, what happened in the 89 00:05:53.820 --> 00:05:57.820 home stayed in the home. It wasn't discussed outside the 90 00:05:57.820 --> 00:06:01.425 home. And I think, part of the reason why I don't have any 91 00:06:01.425 --> 00:06:04.725 recollection of those early years is I just lived in fantasy 92 00:06:05.665 --> 00:06:09.665 world. Like, I lived in a world outside in my head, sort of 93 00:06:09.665 --> 00:06:13.349 away with the fairies, and I didn't have 94 00:06:13.490 --> 00:06:17.490 any support at all. It kind of led me down 95 00:06:17.490 --> 00:06:20.849 a strange path. You know, I kinda got into the wrong crowd, got into the 96 00:06:20.849 --> 00:06:24.710 wrong things, eventually got picked out of home because of drug abuse. 97 00:06:24.849 --> 00:06:28.535 But fortunately, I had people reach out to me, give me a lot of support. 98 00:06:28.595 --> 00:06:32.435 In the eighties, it was quite easy to late eighties, early nineies. You know, 99 00:06:32.435 --> 00:06:36.195 getting on the housing ladder was a lot different to 100 00:06:36.195 --> 00:06:40.035 today. Priority, I managed to get sort of council housing. I mean, that's 101 00:06:40.035 --> 00:06:43.650 really in a nutshell. But what it kind of always 102 00:06:44.190 --> 00:06:48.110 what I always said is that one day, I really wanted to either help young 103 00:06:48.110 --> 00:06:51.730 children or help women that were kind of in my position 104 00:06:52.270 --> 00:06:56.235 who didn't have a voice, who didn't have that support, but also 105 00:06:56.235 --> 00:06:59.915 to let them know that actually what happened to me was wrong. You know, it 106 00:06:59.915 --> 00:07:03.914 should never have happened. And I think, you know, the more I've worked 107 00:07:03.914 --> 00:07:07.435 in advocacy and I've worked around sort of hate 108 00:07:07.435 --> 00:07:11.210 crime, abuse, whether it's child abuse, domestic abuse, 109 00:07:12.070 --> 00:07:16.070 it's really made me realize that it's not 110 00:07:16.070 --> 00:07:20.070 acceptable. It's not okay. There's no justification for that kind 111 00:07:20.070 --> 00:07:24.005 of behavior. And especially being part of the LGBT 112 00:07:24.145 --> 00:07:28.065 plus community, that intersectionality, that's kind of where it comes 113 00:07:28.065 --> 00:07:31.985 in because for me, you know, I'm a woman. I'm a woman of 114 00:07:31.985 --> 00:07:34.885 color. I grew up in a family of faith. 115 00:07:35.760 --> 00:07:39.760 I'm queer. I have hidden disabilities so that, you know, I 116 00:07:39.760 --> 00:07:43.760 took so many different layers. There's discrimination against all those different 117 00:07:43.760 --> 00:07:47.200 layers. So when you break it down, it's a lot to deal with. And I 118 00:07:47.200 --> 00:07:51.185 think people in the community, I've met so many people that have either 119 00:07:51.185 --> 00:07:55.185 been disowned by their family or they don't get on with one of their 120 00:07:55.185 --> 00:07:58.325 siblings or their parents because of their identity 121 00:07:59.825 --> 00:08:03.690 or, you know, they get abuse from people at work or at school 122 00:08:03.750 --> 00:08:07.750 or it can be in any setting, and it's just not okay. And I 123 00:08:07.750 --> 00:08:11.130 think especially as women, especially as women of color, 124 00:08:11.670 --> 00:08:15.465 there is so much, there is so many layers of 125 00:08:15.465 --> 00:08:19.385 abuse that we have to put up with, and so many people just suffer in 126 00:08:19.385 --> 00:08:22.985 silence. And I see it, and I hear it all the time in the 127 00:08:22.985 --> 00:08:26.685 community. You know, people that will sometimes open up with me 128 00:08:27.145 --> 00:08:30.360 and will say that, you know, I haven't shared this with anyone before. I haven't 129 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:34.040 said this before. And, you know, I I I think my 130 00:08:34.040 --> 00:08:37.760 privilege is that people feel safe and comfortable to talk to me. But 131 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.480 yeah. So I think just growing up with that lived 132 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:44.540 experience, understanding what it's like to be abused, 133 00:08:45.545 --> 00:08:49.485 understanding all the different kind of emotions, trauma, the way trauma 134 00:08:49.545 --> 00:08:53.305 manifests into illness. So, you know, I have complex PTSD. I 135 00:08:53.305 --> 00:08:57.005 suffer with fibromyalgia, which is a trauma based 136 00:08:57.330 --> 00:09:01.330 illness. It's understanding all those things, and it's kind of making 137 00:09:01.330 --> 00:09:04.850 someone aware of who they are, helping 138 00:09:04.850 --> 00:09:08.770 someone recognize who they are, love themselves, get 139 00:09:08.770 --> 00:09:12.435 to believe in themselves, and know that, actually, there is a way 140 00:09:12.435 --> 00:09:15.815 out. If I can do it, you know, I've gone from sort of being 141 00:09:16.115 --> 00:09:20.055 ostracized. I mean, I have a great relationship with my brother and sister now. 142 00:09:20.915 --> 00:09:24.435 I've you know, I'm very fortunate that, you know, we've managed to 143 00:09:24.435 --> 00:09:28.100 rekindle that. But I think, you know, letting 144 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:32.020 people know that I've been disowned by my 145 00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:35.780 family at one point, completely ostracized by my community. My 146 00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:39.735 community have nothing to do with me. They still don't know how to address 147 00:09:39.735 --> 00:09:43.495 me or speak to me if they see me, which I kind of find quite 148 00:09:43.495 --> 00:09:47.435 amusing in a weird way. But, yeah, being ostracized by the community, 149 00:09:48.455 --> 00:09:52.235 having nobody kind of, you know, being homeless, you know, 150 00:09:52.295 --> 00:09:55.770 a recovering drug addict, all those things, 151 00:09:57.270 --> 00:10:01.030 I've overcome all of those. You know, I've had years of 152 00:10:01.030 --> 00:10:04.810 therapy. I've spent decades working on myself. 153 00:10:05.654 --> 00:10:09.495 So I know that with a lot of hard work and support, you 154 00:10:09.495 --> 00:10:13.415 can overcome it. It's not easy, and it doesn't happen overnight. 155 00:10:13.415 --> 00:10:17.334 I mean, you know, this all happened to me in my twenties, and I'm 156 00:10:17.334 --> 00:10:21.220 in my early fifties now. I'm 53. I'm not embarrassed to to to 157 00:10:21.220 --> 00:10:23.860 say I'm actually quite proud to say it because I never thought I'd get to 158 00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:27.779 53. So for me, it's really important to share that message with 159 00:10:27.779 --> 00:10:31.700 people that, you know, it's okay. You know, we 160 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:35.620 can get through this together. The most important thing to me is I run 161 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:39.165 a monthly support group for a charity. I'm an I'm an ambassador 162 00:10:39.305 --> 00:10:43.144 for Avengers, which is for women and girls. And one of the 163 00:10:43.144 --> 00:10:46.745 things that's come up for me that really came up for me in the last 164 00:10:46.745 --> 00:10:50.720 session we had a few weeks ago was most people that are 165 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.480 victim survivors or have had some form of abuse, they just 166 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.400 want to be listened to. They just want to feel some form of 167 00:10:58.400 --> 00:11:02.320 compassion. And I think in the community, we we've 168 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:06.185 constantly got people telling us, you've gotta do this. You've gotta do that. This is 169 00:11:06.185 --> 00:11:10.185 law is for you. You know? You can't do this. You can't do that. But 170 00:11:10.185 --> 00:11:14.105 actually, nobody listens to the community. And I think 171 00:11:14.105 --> 00:11:18.105 this is something that I do a lot of work trying to raise awareness as 172 00:11:18.105 --> 00:11:22.000 an ally for the trans community, especially. I'm very 173 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.700 lucky that I have some really good friends that are trans women. And then, 174 00:11:27.280 --> 00:11:31.060 it's that the trans community, especially, just constantly 175 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.985 has people speaking on their behalf, speaking for them, speaking 176 00:11:34.985 --> 00:11:38.904 at them, and actually knowing, you know, your voice needs to be listened to, 177 00:11:38.904 --> 00:11:42.264 your voice needs to be heard. So those are the things that sort of are 178 00:11:42.264 --> 00:11:46.185 really important to me and what kind of brought me to where I'm 179 00:11:46.185 --> 00:11:49.259 at today in terms of using my voice. 180 00:11:50.040 --> 00:11:53.660 And where for the first few decades of my life, I 181 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:57.959 was silenced, and I was told I wasn't good enough, and I was told not 182 00:11:57.959 --> 00:12:01.935 to speak, and I was, yeah, basically silenced. I 183 00:12:01.935 --> 00:12:05.855 will not be that person anymore. And I'm really proud to say 184 00:12:05.855 --> 00:12:09.775 that I am a defiant woman today. I'm not afraid to speak 185 00:12:09.775 --> 00:12:12.895 up. And, you know, if you wanna call me a gobby woman, you can call 186 00:12:12.895 --> 00:12:16.735 me a gobby woman. But, you know, I've I've found my voice today, and I 187 00:12:16.735 --> 00:12:20.470 will speak up for all those women and all those other people 188 00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:24.310 that find it difficult to speak up for themselves. So I 189 00:12:24.310 --> 00:12:28.310 could Yeah. Especially as one of those trans women 190 00:12:28.310 --> 00:12:31.815 that you're allying to, It's it's it's 191 00:12:31.815 --> 00:12:35.415 incredibly exhausting having to continue to do your own 192 00:12:35.415 --> 00:12:39.095 advocacy Mhmm. As standing up and and protesting or whatever it may 193 00:12:39.095 --> 00:12:42.709 be. And there's so much, to quote the phrase, better 194 00:12:42.709 --> 00:12:45.990 together, or I think it was a Brexit term. What's the question devolution term, was 195 00:12:45.990 --> 00:12:49.209 it? Having allies to do some of that heavy lift to 196 00:12:49.990 --> 00:12:53.990 clear the path, to sort things out, to because privilege 197 00:12:53.990 --> 00:12:57.945 gives weight. And we called this speaking truth to power. As a trans 198 00:12:57.945 --> 00:13:01.785 woman in many spaces, I don't have power. And as a non trans person, as 199 00:13:01.785 --> 00:13:05.545 a cis woman, you have more agency in that 200 00:13:05.545 --> 00:13:09.465 space than I can. So to hear your voice in there allows me to 201 00:13:09.465 --> 00:13:12.265 sort of tuck in behind you and let you take the, the out who's in 202 00:13:12.265 --> 00:13:16.170 your chest, knowing full well that whatever I say is gonna be used 203 00:13:16.170 --> 00:13:20.010 against me, dismissed, talked over, or the same old tropes and 204 00:13:20.010 --> 00:13:23.850 and nasty remarks are gonna come back out. But you can still go, no. That's 205 00:13:23.850 --> 00:13:27.705 not true. Yeah. I do, I do a lot of work today 206 00:13:27.705 --> 00:13:31.545 with the criminal justice system, especially with the police, as a critical 207 00:13:31.545 --> 00:13:35.005 friend. So that's basically speaking to them 208 00:13:35.945 --> 00:13:39.885 as a community member, not working for them, speaking to them, 209 00:13:40.550 --> 00:13:44.149 in an advocacy role, sort of suggesting making 210 00:13:44.149 --> 00:13:48.070 suggestions or, like, maybe reading something and saying, well, actually, you've missed this 211 00:13:48.070 --> 00:13:51.910 or giving them advice on how to deal with the situation. One of the things 212 00:13:51.910 --> 00:13:55.774 that I do quite a lot is I always make sure that the trans community 213 00:13:56.075 --> 00:13:59.834 are included in it, but not just the trans community. I 214 00:13:59.834 --> 00:14:03.295 sat, for example, on the MET's LGBT independence 215 00:14:03.515 --> 00:14:07.055 advisory group for two years, and it was all 216 00:14:07.269 --> 00:14:11.110 middle aged white gay men. And I don't have anything against 217 00:14:11.110 --> 00:14:15.029 middle aged white gay men. But if you're gonna represent London, which 218 00:14:15.029 --> 00:14:18.950 is incredibly diverse culturally and in 219 00:14:18.950 --> 00:14:22.935 in so many other ways, it cannot be represented just by 220 00:14:22.935 --> 00:14:26.615 white gay men that are middle aged. You've gotta have youth. You've gotta 221 00:14:26.615 --> 00:14:30.375 have, you know, elders in there. You've gotta 222 00:14:30.375 --> 00:14:34.214 have all the different strands of the community in there. So, you 223 00:14:34.214 --> 00:14:37.820 know, when I go and speak on a panel or if I'm going to 224 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:41.680 speak in a round table or in a scrutiny 225 00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:45.580 panel, I will make sure that I'm not just speaking as a 226 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:48.735 woman. You know, I'm speaking as a woman. I'm representing 227 00:14:49.435 --> 00:14:53.135 different communities, but I'm representing faith. I'm representing 228 00:14:53.675 --> 00:14:57.515 race. I'm representing gender disability. And 229 00:14:57.515 --> 00:15:01.295 because I you know, I I'm so intersectional myself 230 00:15:01.515 --> 00:15:04.420 that I I kind of do it without even thinking. So if I'm reading a 231 00:15:04.420 --> 00:15:08.339 document, I will think, well, there's nothing about disability in this. Like, 232 00:15:08.339 --> 00:15:12.180 that's completely missing. And that would just come to me naturally, not because 233 00:15:12.180 --> 00:15:15.775 I'm necessarily thinking about it. It's because that's how it is. And I've 234 00:15:15.775 --> 00:15:19.695 noticed, that intersectionality is a buzzword that's 235 00:15:19.695 --> 00:15:22.735 used a lot at the moment. I think if you ask a lot of people 236 00:15:22.735 --> 00:15:26.415 where it came from, where the phrase was coined from, they wouldn't be able to 237 00:15:26.415 --> 00:15:30.150 tell you that it was Kimberley Grenshaw and the meaning behind 238 00:15:30.150 --> 00:15:33.530 it, that it was, you know, civil rights word. And, 239 00:15:35.030 --> 00:15:37.990 you know, I don't know. People could look it up. They can do their own 240 00:15:37.990 --> 00:15:41.670 homework. Yeah. Well, you could tell you could tell it's a a 241 00:15:41.670 --> 00:15:45.645 powerful word because it's it's one of those words, along with microaggressions and other words, 242 00:15:45.645 --> 00:15:49.485 that the anti woke brigade throw up as going, this is a mumbo jumbo word. 243 00:15:49.485 --> 00:15:53.485 It doesn't it's meaningless. It's it's all about meritocracy and white people getting getting 244 00:15:53.485 --> 00:15:57.100 the jobs again. Yeah. And in fact, microaggressions is another 245 00:15:57.100 --> 00:16:00.860 one. It's something that, you know, I'm acutely aware when someone 246 00:16:00.860 --> 00:16:04.860 says something, that's inappropriate because, you 247 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:07.760 know, I represent so many different strands and different, 248 00:16:09.935 --> 00:16:13.855 I was gonna say, label or hair labels. God damn them. I don't 249 00:16:13.855 --> 00:16:16.815 like being pigeonholed because I don't know who I'm gonna be or what I'm gonna 250 00:16:16.815 --> 00:16:20.815 be each day I wake up. But, yeah, to me, it's just 251 00:16:20.815 --> 00:16:24.590 really important to have that representation. To 252 00:16:24.590 --> 00:16:28.529 me, representation is really important as I have all those voices, and 253 00:16:28.910 --> 00:16:32.430 I don't think it's fair that any one person can speak on behalf of a 254 00:16:32.430 --> 00:16:36.350 whole community or any one person can say, I'm an ambassador for 255 00:16:36.350 --> 00:16:40.295 the trans community or I represent, you know, it 256 00:16:40.295 --> 00:16:43.254 it just doesn't work like that. But the other thing as well, I just wanna 257 00:16:43.254 --> 00:16:46.634 add quickly, is there anything I do 258 00:16:47.654 --> 00:16:51.595 in relation to, say, for example, on the swooshy panel giving advice, 259 00:16:51.770 --> 00:16:55.450 I will always go and speak to, like, trans organizations or 260 00:16:55.450 --> 00:16:58.650 contacts and say, look. This is what I'm doing. This is what do you think? 261 00:16:58.650 --> 00:17:01.450 Is there anything you want me to focus on? Is there anything you want me 262 00:17:01.450 --> 00:17:04.750 to particularly say? So I spoke at a couple of chemsex 263 00:17:05.054 --> 00:17:08.974 conferences last year, and in the end, I agreed with a 264 00:17:08.974 --> 00:17:12.575 friend of mine, a trans woman, who did 265 00:17:12.654 --> 00:17:16.575 recorded a video for me so that she could actually speak from a 266 00:17:16.575 --> 00:17:20.549 trans perspective and the use of chems. So when I 267 00:17:20.549 --> 00:17:24.470 spoke about it, I wanted to raise awareness of it, 268 00:17:24.470 --> 00:17:28.309 but it came from a trans person. And we did the same thing actually with, 269 00:17:28.710 --> 00:17:32.630 a black gay man. I got him to record a video as well. So you 270 00:17:32.630 --> 00:17:36.085 you talked about that kind of privilege that, yes, I do have privilege. I do 271 00:17:36.085 --> 00:17:40.005 have access to people in rooms. Is it when I go into 272 00:17:40.005 --> 00:17:43.925 those rooms, I will also bring those voices with me. So quite often, that 273 00:17:43.925 --> 00:17:47.785 might be reading a statement out for someone or playing a video that someone's 274 00:17:47.929 --> 00:17:51.549 recorded for me. So to me, it's really important that I'm representing 275 00:17:51.850 --> 00:17:55.789 community, and I'm not there just representing cyber because 276 00:17:55.850 --> 00:17:59.789 I'm not an community. I'm just an individual. That's the amplification 277 00:18:00.010 --> 00:18:03.775 element, though, isn't it? It's it's making sure that you've created this space for 278 00:18:03.775 --> 00:18:07.775 people. You've crowbarred the door open. You've given a platform to somebody, and then 279 00:18:07.775 --> 00:18:11.055 you're there to say, go on. You can do this. I'm with you. Go go 280 00:18:11.055 --> 00:18:15.055 girl or go boy. You can say or go them. And you 281 00:18:15.055 --> 00:18:18.070 can that's what you need sometimes, you know. It's it's very lonely 282 00:18:18.850 --> 00:18:22.210 walking out into the stage in a spotlight on your own, especially if you're come 283 00:18:22.210 --> 00:18:26.210 from a background where advocacy doesn't come natural. You're gonna walk away. And we 284 00:18:26.210 --> 00:18:28.784 see it all the time where people say, I can't. I can't. I can't say 285 00:18:28.784 --> 00:18:31.745 anything. I'm too nervous. What if I fumble my words? What if I think I'm 286 00:18:31.745 --> 00:18:35.445 stupid or an idiot or something? So having someone behind you, 287 00:18:35.745 --> 00:18:39.505 giving you that strength, giving you that belief, I think belief is probably a good 288 00:18:39.505 --> 00:18:43.320 word there, that you are making sense is is so powerful. It's so 289 00:18:43.320 --> 00:18:46.840 powerful. Yeah. So And that's what you do, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I 290 00:18:46.840 --> 00:18:50.140 know a lot of other people that do it. And wherever I have the opportunity 291 00:18:50.360 --> 00:18:54.200 to bring people into panels and groups and settings, I 292 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:58.135 always do. I mean, I I coerced you to come and join the RSA 293 00:18:58.355 --> 00:19:02.115 Circle Network and, you know, any opportunity I have where I can 294 00:19:02.115 --> 00:19:06.115 bring people in. Like, for me, collaboration is so important. I 295 00:19:06.115 --> 00:19:09.850 think, like I said, right at the beginning, working in silos just doesn't really get 296 00:19:09.850 --> 00:19:12.809 you anywhere. That kind of, like, I want all the glory and I want all 297 00:19:12.809 --> 00:19:16.750 the recognition just doesn't work. You know? You have to work in collaboration. 298 00:19:17.530 --> 00:19:21.465 We have to work together. It's just so much stronger 299 00:19:21.465 --> 00:19:25.225 voice. And if I can give other people opportunities, why not? I don't 300 00:19:25.225 --> 00:19:28.205 think, actually, you you coerced me. I think you just said, 301 00:19:28.985 --> 00:19:32.345 hey, Joe. I've got a cunning plan. Do you what do you think? I love 302 00:19:32.345 --> 00:19:35.890 the cunning plan. Let's do it. Yeah. It was I'm I've got 303 00:19:35.970 --> 00:19:39.570 someone described as having the breaking strain of a kick. Yeah. My 304 00:19:39.570 --> 00:19:43.330 resistance is very low on many things, and, I'm always up for 305 00:19:43.330 --> 00:19:47.170 something. You know? I all of my my mantras is, always say 306 00:19:47.170 --> 00:19:50.795 yes because no exciting adventure ever starts with no. Yeah. Let's 307 00:19:50.795 --> 00:19:53.995 let's do it and see what happens. Oh, gosh. I'm the opposite. You see, my 308 00:19:53.995 --> 00:19:57.835 favorite word is now. I it's one of the reasons why I absolutely love 309 00:19:57.835 --> 00:20:01.755 being self employed and working for myself. It's just that 310 00:20:01.755 --> 00:20:05.195 joy in being able to say no. I just Yeah. I I get that. I 311 00:20:05.195 --> 00:20:08.740 get that. I I suppose see, I don't see those opportunities where I say no 312 00:20:08.740 --> 00:20:12.179 as a no. I I I I sort of say, well, that's not a good 313 00:20:12.179 --> 00:20:15.700 fit for me or that's Yeah. I'm not it's all about what's in it for 314 00:20:15.700 --> 00:20:19.225 me. I'm not I'm not saying I'm I'm doing it for personal gain, but some 315 00:20:19.225 --> 00:20:22.425 things that don't resonate, and I think, well and I've I've been like you. I 316 00:20:22.505 --> 00:20:25.544 I've said yes too many times in my life. Yeah. It's through that mantra. It's 317 00:20:25.544 --> 00:20:29.544 got me into sort of personal stress and overload and no time for myself. 318 00:20:29.544 --> 00:20:33.385 So I suppose I I do pick and choose what I'm gonna do. But if 319 00:20:33.385 --> 00:20:36.800 someone comes to me with a with a a credible, cunning plan and it sounds 320 00:20:36.800 --> 00:20:40.720 interesting, I'm always gonna go. And so, yeah, don't worry. I'm 321 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:44.660 I'm an easy target for you if you ever need if you ever wanna ask. 322 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.575 I've made a mental note that's I'm only locked away. As 323 00:20:48.575 --> 00:20:52.355 a marginalized person myself, I guess, and coming from within marginalized 324 00:20:52.415 --> 00:20:56.335 communities, there's a huge distrust of the criminal justice system, 325 00:20:56.335 --> 00:21:00.240 the police, politicians' power in general, really, 326 00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:03.440 especially at the moment where we thought things are gonna get brighter and sunnier with 327 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.820 a change of government. It looks like we're recycling some of the same old tropes. 328 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.640 Should people trust more, or should we still 329 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.320 be doubtful and nervous? Oh, I feel like I'm taking a big 330 00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:18.225 sigh. I I really struggle with this because there were times when I 331 00:21:18.225 --> 00:21:21.985 thought, should I really be doing what I'm doing? And then I 332 00:21:21.985 --> 00:21:24.465 kinda think, well, if I don't do it, who else would do it? And then 333 00:21:24.465 --> 00:21:27.765 I think, god, that's really conceited, and who the hell do you think you are? 334 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.720 So I have this kind of constant battle with myself, but I think I've 335 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.640 had other people say to me that I'm so grateful you do what you 336 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:39.640 do because I wouldn't do it. And I've had so 337 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:43.340 many people in the community say I would not do what you do. 338 00:21:44.395 --> 00:21:47.135 But to me, you know, 339 00:21:48.155 --> 00:21:51.455 I do believe we need a police service 340 00:21:52.635 --> 00:21:56.155 because, otherwise, I think there would be anarchy. And I 341 00:21:56.155 --> 00:22:00.019 think I'm lucky because I work on the inside. 342 00:22:00.019 --> 00:22:03.539 I've got to meet so many good police officers and police 343 00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:07.299 staff, people that really genuinely do care 344 00:22:07.299 --> 00:22:11.155 and genuinely care about our community and marginalized 345 00:22:11.294 --> 00:22:14.595 people and want to help. You know, I've seen officers in tears, 346 00:22:15.455 --> 00:22:18.595 you know, really upset when, you know, no news 347 00:22:19.375 --> 00:22:21.395 breaking broken, broken, broken, 348 00:22:23.309 --> 00:22:26.769 about, you know, like, when the Wayne actually, when the Sarah Everard 349 00:22:27.070 --> 00:22:30.929 news broke, I saw officers in tears, like women are really upset, 350 00:22:31.070 --> 00:22:34.690 stuff around the barking 351 00:22:34.750 --> 00:22:38.535 murders. There was a lot of upset. And, you know, I've met a lot 352 00:22:38.535 --> 00:22:42.135 of LGBT officers and staff, 353 00:22:42.135 --> 00:22:45.975 and they genuinely care about their community. So in that 354 00:22:45.975 --> 00:22:49.975 sense, I think I just think there's a lot of 355 00:22:49.975 --> 00:22:53.595 work that needs to be done. I think there's a lot around policing 356 00:22:53.655 --> 00:22:57.430 that the public don't see and don't know. I think there needs to be 357 00:22:57.430 --> 00:23:00.890 more transparency. I think the last government 358 00:23:01.270 --> 00:23:05.190 really, really corrupt is probably the politest way I 359 00:23:05.190 --> 00:23:08.950 can put it without using Morally and and in other ways as 360 00:23:08.950 --> 00:23:12.925 well. They really were. You know, they openly said that they 361 00:23:12.925 --> 00:23:16.765 were gonna use the LGBT plus community, the trans 362 00:23:16.765 --> 00:23:19.745 community, as a wedge issue, as, you know, 363 00:23:20.445 --> 00:23:24.220 culture, you know, gonna make 364 00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:28.060 a scene out of it and cause problems. And they did. You know? That that 365 00:23:28.060 --> 00:23:32.000 awful, vile home secretary, you know, she changed the 366 00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:36.365 laws just to make it difficult for trans people. And that's all 367 00:23:36.365 --> 00:23:39.725 they talked about. All they talked about was what was in people's pants. They didn't 368 00:23:39.725 --> 00:23:43.325 care about the fact that people couldn't afford to eat or stay 369 00:23:43.325 --> 00:23:47.325 warm or, you know, put their electricity on, turn their lights 370 00:23:47.325 --> 00:23:50.764 on. All they cared about was what was in your pants. And to me, it 371 00:23:50.764 --> 00:23:53.690 just beggars belief that people 372 00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:58.390 allowed that to be. Or when you think about, oh god. I can't believe I'm 373 00:23:58.390 --> 00:24:01.670 gonna even say the word Brexit. But when people be like, I'd rather lose my 374 00:24:01.670 --> 00:24:05.110 job and not have any money, but not being you know, get my country back. 375 00:24:05.110 --> 00:24:09.054 You know? I just I just think I I don't know. I just don't 376 00:24:09.054 --> 00:24:12.655 understand what's happening to this country, if I'm honest. You know? I I am 377 00:24:12.815 --> 00:24:16.415 I I do like politics. I do I mean, I really struggle with it at 378 00:24:16.415 --> 00:24:20.255 the moment. As we we were saying earlier, I get so frustrated because 379 00:24:20.255 --> 00:24:24.150 I I am so interested in it. But then when we're in times like 380 00:24:24.150 --> 00:24:28.070 today, right now, I can't listen to the news. I can't listen to 381 00:24:28.070 --> 00:24:31.670 anything because it just it's not good for my mental health. But I think when 382 00:24:31.670 --> 00:24:35.645 it comes to policing, you know, they've absolutely ruined it. And we 383 00:24:35.645 --> 00:24:39.385 have and I am gonna say we have such a far 384 00:24:39.605 --> 00:24:42.825 right leaning media who 385 00:24:43.285 --> 00:24:47.000 absolutely twists headlines and the information 386 00:24:47.300 --> 00:24:51.080 that's put out there. It's completely misinformed, 387 00:24:52.420 --> 00:24:56.420 complete scaremongering, and the average person that reads 388 00:24:56.420 --> 00:24:59.865 the news or listens to the radio is getting 389 00:24:59.924 --> 00:25:03.845 incorrect information. So I think, you know, the police are 390 00:25:03.845 --> 00:25:07.845 stuck in a hard place, and it sounds like I'm trying to 391 00:25:07.845 --> 00:25:11.625 make excuses for them. I'm not, but, you know, they're 392 00:25:11.765 --> 00:25:15.422 they're understaffed. They haven't got any money. They've had funding 393 00:25:15.514 --> 00:25:19.370 cuts, they've got more funding cuts that just happened, they're 394 00:25:19.370 --> 00:25:23.290 losing officers, their long term officers are resigning left, 395 00:25:23.290 --> 00:25:27.245 right, etcetera, they're in a dire straits, you 396 00:25:27.245 --> 00:25:30.205 know, and I really feel for them because people that, you know, I know an 397 00:25:30.205 --> 00:25:32.545 officer who was there for thirty one years, 398 00:25:33.965 --> 00:25:37.805 person of color, really compassionate, really committed to 399 00:25:37.805 --> 00:25:41.800 community, did amazing work with the LGBTQ plus community, And 400 00:25:41.800 --> 00:25:45.580 he retired, took took retirement because he was like, I just can't do it anymore. 401 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.800