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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 156, one hundred and fifty
Joanne Lockwood: six, with the title, Speaking Truth to
Joanne Lockwood: Power. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Saba Ali.
Joanne Lockwood: Saba is a public speaker, a critical friend who champions
Joanne Lockwood: justice for marginalized communities, focusing on intersectionality,
Joanne Lockwood: cultural abuse, and the lived realities of queer South
Joanne Lockwood: Asian individuals. When I asked Saba to describe her superpower, she said it
Joanne Lockwood: is her ability to amplify marginalized voices
Joanne Lockwood: into institutional change. Hello, Saba. Welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show. Hi, Joanne. Nice to be here. Lovely to get you on.
Joanne Lockwood: We we first met couple of years ago. We did both did a panel together,
Joanne Lockwood: didn't we? An online panel, I think. Yes. Yeah. And, we bumped
Joanne Lockwood: into each other at events like Trans in the City. I think the mayor
Joanne Lockwood: of London had a had a event a couple of years ago. We bumped each
Joanne Lockwood: other there. And more recently at,
Joanne Lockwood: Beyond Reflections, award night, where you won the
Joanne Lockwood: award. Hey. Go you. I
Saba Ali: did. I won,
Saba Ali: allyship for the trans community Yeah. Which was
Saba Ali: completely unexpected. But, yeah, very honored to
Saba Ali: receive that, especially as it was chosen from the community.
Saba Ali: Yeah. I was thinking if you're up for an award, everybody else, no chance. Saba's
Joanne Lockwood: got this. Thank you. Yeah. No. We we keep bumping it to each other,
Saba Ali: which is great. Yeah. It's always nice to meet Lovely. Like minded people. And it
Joanne Lockwood: sounds like we're gonna be seeing a lot more each other through the RSA and
Joanne Lockwood: some of the events and the LGBT community within the RSA. So I'm really, really
Joanne Lockwood: looking forward to getting involved with those things. Yeah. Absolutely. I,
Saba Ali: I have definitely got you penciled in for a few things.
Joanne Lockwood: So if you listen to this and it and it floats your boat, if you
Joanne Lockwood: don't remember the RSA, firstly, join, become a fellow of the RSA. Yep. And
Joanne Lockwood: then track either myself or or Sabi down, and we can,
Joanne Lockwood: Saba down, and we can, get into that and and find
Joanne Lockwood: and get you in, yeah, basically. Yeah. And I should add, actually, for those
Saba Ali: of you who don't know, RSS, the Royal Society of Arts.
Joanne Lockwood: Education and commerce or something, isn't it? It's it's got it's got a long bit
Joanne Lockwood: on the end, which I never remember which way around it is, but, yeah, of
Joanne Lockwood: arts and something else. Yeah. So me and Joanne are both part
Saba Ali: of their, LGBTQIA network, which is
Saba Ali: doing some amazing stuff. Very excited to be part of
Saba Ali: that. Which, I don't wanna focus on what's going on in the world too
Joanne Lockwood: deeply to the moment, but there's a lot of stuff going on that we need
Joanne Lockwood: to raise the the profile. So it's a bit a bit
Joanne Lockwood: pooey out there at the moment. Is it for for queer folk? It's not great.
Saba Ali: It's not great. I think, I think that's one of the reasons actually
Saba Ali: why I'm really championing what the RSA are doing because they are
Saba Ali: a global community. So the network is a great global community. But
Saba Ali: I think at the moment, it's so important for the
Saba Ali: LGBT plus community to kind of unite and get together
Saba Ali: and sort of try and put our differences aside and,
Saba Ali: you know, come together and work together. We really need to sort of support each
Saba Ali: other. And even if that's only in small groups that, you know, we we need
Saba Ali: to be there for each other at the moment. That support and compassion
Saba Ali: is so important. Was there a a point in your life where you
Joanne Lockwood: thought, actually, this is my calling. I wanna go and
Joanne Lockwood: champion marginalized voices, talk about intersectionality. What was
Joanne Lockwood: it apart from being a, well, at the time, a young black Muslim woman with
Joanne Lockwood: a queer tendency, I guess? Apart from that, what's what got you into it?
Saba Ali: So my childhood lived experience is actually child
Saba Ali: abuse and cultural abuse. So I have no
Saba Ali: recollection of the first sort of nine, ten years of my life. I
Saba Ali: know it was very abusive. I have, like, the odd generally
Saba Ali: have flashbacks, but I had the odd recollection. And my mother
Saba Ali: was my perpetrator, and I know that she had mental health
Saba Ali: issues, and she's passed now. And there were quite a few
Saba Ali: occasions where, you know, she just
Saba Ali: we're we're just she just didn't like me for whatever
Saba Ali: reason. She you know, like I said, she had her own issues. And
Saba Ali: I was a seventies child, and in the seventies, there weren't really any
Saba Ali: support organizations or groups. You had ChildLine and the
Saba Ali: NSPCC, and that was it. But, obviously, growing up in a
Saba Ali: religious, conservative household, you know, what happened in the
Saba Ali: home stayed in the home. It wasn't discussed outside the
Saba Ali: home. And I think, part of the reason why I don't have any
Saba Ali: recollection of those early years is I just lived in fantasy
Saba Ali: world. Like, I lived in a world outside in my head, sort of
Saba Ali: away with the fairies, and I didn't have
Saba Ali: any support at all. It kind of led me down
Saba Ali: a strange path. You know, I kinda got into the wrong crowd, got into the
Saba Ali: wrong things, eventually got picked out of home because of drug abuse.
Saba Ali: But fortunately, I had people reach out to me, give me a lot of support.
Saba Ali: In the eighties, it was quite easy to late eighties, early nineies. You know,
Saba Ali: getting on the housing ladder was a lot different to
Saba Ali: today. Priority, I managed to get sort of council housing. I mean, that's
Saba Ali: really in a nutshell. But what it kind of always
Saba Ali: what I always said is that one day, I really wanted to either help young
Saba Ali: children or help women that were kind of in my position
Saba Ali: who didn't have a voice, who didn't have that support, but also
Saba Ali: to let them know that actually what happened to me was wrong. You know, it
Saba Ali: should never have happened. And I think, you know, the more I've worked
Saba Ali: in advocacy and I've worked around sort of hate
Saba Ali: crime, abuse, whether it's child abuse, domestic abuse,
Saba Ali: it's really made me realize that it's not
Saba Ali: acceptable. It's not okay. There's no justification for that kind
Saba Ali: of behavior. And especially being part of the LGBT
Saba Ali: plus community, that intersectionality, that's kind of where it comes
Saba Ali: in because for me, you know, I'm a woman. I'm a woman of
Saba Ali: color. I grew up in a family of faith.
Saba Ali: I'm queer. I have hidden disabilities so that, you know, I
Saba Ali: took so many different layers. There's discrimination against all those different
Saba Ali: layers. So when you break it down, it's a lot to deal with. And I
Saba Ali: think people in the community, I've met so many people that have either
Saba Ali: been disowned by their family or they don't get on with one of their
Saba Ali: siblings or their parents because of their identity
Saba Ali: or, you know, they get abuse from people at work or at school
Saba Ali: or it can be in any setting, and it's just not okay. And I
Saba Ali: think especially as women, especially as women of color,
Saba Ali: there is so much, there is so many layers of
Saba Ali: abuse that we have to put up with, and so many people just suffer in
Saba Ali: silence. And I see it, and I hear it all the time in the
Saba Ali: community. You know, people that will sometimes open up with me
Saba Ali: and will say that, you know, I haven't shared this with anyone before. I haven't
Saba Ali: said this before. And, you know, I I I think my
Saba Ali: privilege is that people feel safe and comfortable to talk to me. But
Saba Ali: yeah. So I think just growing up with that lived
Saba Ali: experience, understanding what it's like to be abused,
Saba Ali: understanding all the different kind of emotions, trauma, the way trauma
Saba Ali: manifests into illness. So, you know, I have complex PTSD. I
Saba Ali: suffer with fibromyalgia, which is a trauma based
Saba Ali: illness. It's understanding all those things, and it's kind of making
Saba Ali: someone aware of who they are, helping
Saba Ali: someone recognize who they are, love themselves, get
Saba Ali: to believe in themselves, and know that, actually, there is a way
Saba Ali: out. If I can do it, you know, I've gone from sort of being
Saba Ali: ostracized. I mean, I have a great relationship with my brother and sister now.
Saba Ali: I've you know, I'm very fortunate that, you know, we've managed to
Saba Ali: rekindle that. But I think, you know, letting
Saba Ali: people know that I've been disowned by my
Saba Ali: family at one point, completely ostracized by my community. My
Saba Ali: community have nothing to do with me. They still don't know how to address
Saba Ali: me or speak to me if they see me, which I kind of find quite
Saba Ali: amusing in a weird way. But, yeah, being ostracized by the community,
Saba Ali: having nobody kind of, you know, being homeless, you know,
Saba Ali: a recovering drug addict, all those things,
Saba Ali: I've overcome all of those. You know, I've had years of
Saba Ali: therapy. I've spent decades working on myself.
Saba Ali: So I know that with a lot of hard work and support, you
Saba Ali: can overcome it. It's not easy, and it doesn't happen overnight.
Saba Ali: I mean, you know, this all happened to me in my twenties, and I'm
Saba Ali: in my early fifties now. I'm 53. I'm not embarrassed to to to
Saba Ali: say I'm actually quite proud to say it because I never thought I'd get to
Saba Ali: 53. So for me, it's really important to share that message with
Saba Ali: people that, you know, it's okay. You know, we
Saba Ali: can get through this together. The most important thing to me is I run
Saba Ali: a monthly support group for a charity. I'm an I'm an ambassador
Saba Ali: for Avengers, which is for women and girls. And one of the
Saba Ali: things that's come up for me that really came up for me in the last
Saba Ali: session we had a few weeks ago was most people that are
Saba Ali: victim survivors or have had some form of abuse, they just
Saba Ali: want to be listened to. They just want to feel some form of
Saba Ali: compassion. And I think in the community, we we've
Saba Ali: constantly got people telling us, you've gotta do this. You've gotta do that. This is
Saba Ali: law is for you. You know? You can't do this. You can't do that. But
Saba Ali: actually, nobody listens to the community. And I think
Saba Ali: this is something that I do a lot of work trying to raise awareness as
Saba Ali: an ally for the trans community, especially. I'm very
Saba Ali: lucky that I have some really good friends that are trans women. And then,
Saba Ali: it's that the trans community, especially, just constantly
Saba Ali: has people speaking on their behalf, speaking for them, speaking
Saba Ali: at them, and actually knowing, you know, your voice needs to be listened to,
Saba Ali: your voice needs to be heard. So those are the things that sort of are
Saba Ali: really important to me and what kind of brought me to where I'm
Saba Ali: at today in terms of using my voice.
Saba Ali: And where for the first few decades of my life, I
Saba Ali: was silenced, and I was told I wasn't good enough, and I was told not
Saba Ali: to speak, and I was, yeah, basically silenced. I
Saba Ali: will not be that person anymore. And I'm really proud to say
Saba Ali: that I am a defiant woman today. I'm not afraid to speak
Saba Ali: up. And, you know, if you wanna call me a gobby woman, you can call
Saba Ali: me a gobby woman. But, you know, I've I've found my voice today, and I
Saba Ali: will speak up for all those women and all those other people
Saba Ali: that find it difficult to speak up for themselves. So I
Saba Ali: could Yeah. Especially as one of those trans women
Joanne Lockwood: that you're allying to, It's it's it's
Joanne Lockwood: incredibly exhausting having to continue to do your own
Joanne Lockwood: advocacy Mhmm. As standing up and and protesting or whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be. And there's so much, to quote the phrase, better
Joanne Lockwood: together, or I think it was a Brexit term. What's the question devolution term, was
Joanne Lockwood: it? Having allies to do some of that heavy lift to
Joanne Lockwood: clear the path, to sort things out, to because privilege
Joanne Lockwood: gives weight. And we called this speaking truth to power. As a trans
Joanne Lockwood: woman in many spaces, I don't have power. And as a non trans person, as
Joanne Lockwood: a cis woman, you have more agency in that
Joanne Lockwood: space than I can. So to hear your voice in there allows me to
Joanne Lockwood: sort of tuck in behind you and let you take the, the out who's in
Joanne Lockwood: your chest, knowing full well that whatever I say is gonna be used
Joanne Lockwood: against me, dismissed, talked over, or the same old tropes and
Joanne Lockwood: and nasty remarks are gonna come back out. But you can still go, no. That's
Joanne Lockwood: not true. Yeah. I do, I do a lot of work today
Saba Ali: with the criminal justice system, especially with the police, as a critical
Saba Ali: friend. So that's basically speaking to them
Saba Ali: as a community member, not working for them, speaking to them,
Saba Ali: in an advocacy role, sort of suggesting making
Saba Ali: suggestions or, like, maybe reading something and saying, well, actually, you've missed this
Saba Ali: or giving them advice on how to deal with the situation. One of the things
Saba Ali: that I do quite a lot is I always make sure that the trans community
Saba Ali: are included in it, but not just the trans community. I
Saba Ali: sat, for example, on the MET's LGBT independence
Saba Ali: advisory group for two years, and it was all
Saba Ali: middle aged white gay men. And I don't have anything against
Saba Ali: middle aged white gay men. But if you're gonna represent London, which
Saba Ali: is incredibly diverse culturally and in
Saba Ali: in so many other ways, it cannot be represented just by
Saba Ali: white gay men that are middle aged. You've gotta have youth. You've gotta
Saba Ali: have, you know, elders in there. You've gotta
Saba Ali: have all the different strands of the community in there. So, you
Saba Ali: know, when I go and speak on a panel or if I'm going to
Saba Ali: speak in a round table or in a scrutiny
Saba Ali: panel, I will make sure that I'm not just speaking as a
Saba Ali: woman. You know, I'm speaking as a woman. I'm representing
Saba Ali: different communities, but I'm representing faith. I'm representing
Saba Ali: race. I'm representing gender disability. And
Saba Ali: because I you know, I I'm so intersectional myself
Saba Ali: that I I kind of do it without even thinking. So if I'm reading a
Saba Ali: document, I will think, well, there's nothing about disability in this. Like,
Saba Ali: that's completely missing. And that would just come to me naturally, not because
Saba Ali: I'm necessarily thinking about it. It's because that's how it is. And I've
Saba Ali: noticed, that intersectionality is a buzzword that's
Saba Ali: used a lot at the moment. I think if you ask a lot of people
Saba Ali: where it came from, where the phrase was coined from, they wouldn't be able to
Saba Ali: tell you that it was Kimberley Grenshaw and the meaning behind
Saba Ali: it, that it was, you know, civil rights word. And,
Saba Ali: you know, I don't know. People could look it up. They can do their own
Saba Ali: homework. Yeah. Well, you could tell you could tell it's a a
Joanne Lockwood: powerful word because it's it's one of those words, along with microaggressions and other words,
Joanne Lockwood: that the anti woke brigade throw up as going, this is a mumbo jumbo word.
Joanne Lockwood: It doesn't it's meaningless. It's it's all about meritocracy and white people getting getting
Joanne Lockwood: the jobs again. Yeah. And in fact, microaggressions is another
Saba Ali: one. It's something that, you know, I'm acutely aware when someone
Saba Ali: says something, that's inappropriate because, you
Saba Ali: know, I represent so many different strands and different,
Saba Ali: I was gonna say, label or hair labels. God damn them. I don't
Saba Ali: like being pigeonholed because I don't know who I'm gonna be or what I'm gonna
Saba Ali: be each day I wake up. But, yeah, to me, it's just
Saba Ali: really important to have that representation. To
Saba Ali: me, representation is really important as I have all those voices, and
Saba Ali: I don't think it's fair that any one person can speak on behalf of a
Saba Ali: whole community or any one person can say, I'm an ambassador for
Saba Ali: the trans community or I represent, you know, it
Saba Ali: it just doesn't work like that. But the other thing as well, I just wanna
Saba Ali: add quickly, is there anything I do
Saba Ali: in relation to, say, for example, on the swooshy panel giving advice,
Saba Ali: I will always go and speak to, like, trans organizations or
Saba Ali: contacts and say, look. This is what I'm doing. This is what do you think?
Saba Ali: Is there anything you want me to focus on? Is there anything you want me
Saba Ali: to particularly say? So I spoke at a couple of chemsex
Saba Ali: conferences last year, and in the end, I agreed with a
Saba Ali: friend of mine, a trans woman, who did
Saba Ali: recorded a video for me so that she could actually speak from a
Saba Ali: trans perspective and the use of chems. So when I
Saba Ali: spoke about it, I wanted to raise awareness of it,
Saba Ali: but it came from a trans person. And we did the same thing actually with,
Saba Ali: a black gay man. I got him to record a video as well. So you
Saba Ali: you talked about that kind of privilege that, yes, I do have privilege. I do
Saba Ali: have access to people in rooms. Is it when I go into
Saba Ali: those rooms, I will also bring those voices with me. So quite often, that
Saba Ali: might be reading a statement out for someone or playing a video that someone's
Saba Ali: recorded for me. So to me, it's really important that I'm representing
Saba Ali: community, and I'm not there just representing cyber because
Saba Ali: I'm not an community. I'm just an individual. That's the amplification
Joanne Lockwood: element, though, isn't it? It's it's making sure that you've created this space for
Joanne Lockwood: people. You've crowbarred the door open. You've given a platform to somebody, and then
Joanne Lockwood: you're there to say, go on. You can do this. I'm with you. Go go
Joanne Lockwood: girl or go boy. You can say or go them. And you
Joanne Lockwood: can that's what you need sometimes, you know. It's it's very lonely
Joanne Lockwood: walking out into the stage in a spotlight on your own, especially if you're come
Joanne Lockwood: from a background where advocacy doesn't come natural. You're gonna walk away. And we
Joanne Lockwood: see it all the time where people say, I can't. I can't. I can't say
Joanne Lockwood: anything. I'm too nervous. What if I fumble my words? What if I think I'm
Joanne Lockwood: stupid or an idiot or something? So having someone behind you,
Joanne Lockwood: giving you that strength, giving you that belief, I think belief is probably a good
Joanne Lockwood: word there, that you are making sense is is so powerful. It's so
Joanne Lockwood: powerful. Yeah. So And that's what you do, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I
Saba Ali: know a lot of other people that do it. And wherever I have the opportunity
Saba Ali: to bring people into panels and groups and settings, I
Saba Ali: always do. I mean, I I coerced you to come and join the RSA
Saba Ali: Circle Network and, you know, any opportunity I have where I can
Saba Ali: bring people in. Like, for me, collaboration is so important. I
Saba Ali: think, like I said, right at the beginning, working in silos just doesn't really get
Saba Ali: you anywhere. That kind of, like, I want all the glory and I want all
Saba Ali: the recognition just doesn't work. You know? You have to work in collaboration.
Saba Ali: We have to work together. It's just so much stronger
Saba Ali: voice. And if I can give other people opportunities, why not? I don't
Joanne Lockwood: think, actually, you you coerced me. I think you just said,
Joanne Lockwood: hey, Joe. I've got a cunning plan. Do you what do you think? I love
Joanne Lockwood: the cunning plan. Let's do it. Yeah. It was I'm I've got
Joanne Lockwood: someone described as having the breaking strain of a kick. Yeah. My
Joanne Lockwood: resistance is very low on many things, and, I'm always up for
Joanne Lockwood: something. You know? I all of my my mantras is, always say
Joanne Lockwood: yes because no exciting adventure ever starts with no. Yeah. Let's
Joanne Lockwood: let's do it and see what happens. Oh, gosh. I'm the opposite. You see, my
Saba Ali: favorite word is now. I it's one of the reasons why I absolutely love
Saba Ali: being self employed and working for myself. It's just that
Saba Ali: joy in being able to say no. I just Yeah. I I get that. I
Joanne Lockwood: get that. I I suppose see, I don't see those opportunities where I say no
Joanne Lockwood: as a no. I I I I sort of say, well, that's not a good
Joanne Lockwood: fit for me or that's Yeah. I'm not it's all about what's in it for
Joanne Lockwood: me. I'm not I'm not saying I'm I'm doing it for personal gain, but some
Joanne Lockwood: things that don't resonate, and I think, well and I've I've been like you. I
Joanne Lockwood: I've said yes too many times in my life. Yeah. It's through that mantra. It's
Joanne Lockwood: got me into sort of personal stress and overload and no time for myself.
Joanne Lockwood: So I suppose I I do pick and choose what I'm gonna do. But if
Joanne Lockwood: someone comes to me with a with a a credible, cunning plan and it sounds
Joanne Lockwood: interesting, I'm always gonna go. And so, yeah, don't worry. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: I'm an easy target for you if you ever need if you ever wanna ask.
Saba Ali: I've made a mental note that's I'm only locked away. As
Joanne Lockwood: a marginalized person myself, I guess, and coming from within marginalized
Joanne Lockwood: communities, there's a huge distrust of the criminal justice system,
Joanne Lockwood: the police, politicians' power in general, really,
Joanne Lockwood: especially at the moment where we thought things are gonna get brighter and sunnier with
Joanne Lockwood: a change of government. It looks like we're recycling some of the same old tropes.
Joanne Lockwood: Should people trust more, or should we still
Joanne Lockwood: be doubtful and nervous? Oh, I feel like I'm taking a big
Saba Ali: sigh. I I really struggle with this because there were times when I
Saba Ali: thought, should I really be doing what I'm doing? And then I
Saba Ali: kinda think, well, if I don't do it, who else would do it? And then
Saba Ali: I think, god, that's really conceited, and who the hell do you think you are?
Saba Ali: So I have this kind of constant battle with myself, but I think I've
Saba Ali: had other people say to me that I'm so grateful you do what you
Saba Ali: do because I wouldn't do it. And I've had so
Saba Ali: many people in the community say I would not do what you do.
Saba Ali: But to me, you know,
Saba Ali: I do believe we need a police service
Saba Ali: because, otherwise, I think there would be anarchy. And I
Saba Ali: think I'm lucky because I work on the inside.
Saba Ali: I've got to meet so many good police officers and police
Saba Ali: staff, people that really genuinely do care
Saba Ali: and genuinely care about our community and marginalized
Saba Ali: people and want to help. You know, I've seen officers in tears,
Saba Ali: you know, really upset when, you know, no news
Saba Ali: breaking broken, broken, broken,
Saba Ali: about, you know, like, when the Wayne actually, when the Sarah Everard
Saba Ali: news broke, I saw officers in tears, like women are really upset,
Saba Ali: stuff around the barking
Saba Ali: murders. There was a lot of upset. And, you know, I've met a lot
Saba Ali: of LGBT officers and staff,
Saba Ali: and they genuinely care about their community. So in that
Saba Ali: sense, I think I just think there's a lot of
Saba Ali: work that needs to be done. I think there's a lot around policing
Saba Ali: that the public don't see and don't know. I think there needs to be
Saba Ali: more transparency. I think the last government
Saba Ali: really, really corrupt is probably the politest way I
Saba Ali: can put it without using Morally and and in other ways as
Joanne Lockwood: well. They really were. You know, they openly said that they
Saba Ali: were gonna use the LGBT plus community, the trans
Saba Ali: community, as a wedge issue, as, you know,
Saba Ali: culture, you know, gonna make
Saba Ali: a scene out of it and cause problems. And they did. You know? That that
Saba Ali: awful, vile home secretary, you know, she changed the
Saba Ali: laws just to make it difficult for trans people. And that's all
Saba Ali: they talked about. All they talked about was what was in people's pants. They didn't
Saba Ali: care about the fact that people couldn't afford to eat or stay
Saba Ali: warm or, you know, put their electricity on, turn their lights
Saba Ali: on. All they cared about was what was in your pants. And to me, it
Saba Ali: just beggars belief that people
Saba Ali: allowed that to be. Or when you think about, oh god. I can't believe I'm
Saba Ali: gonna even say the word Brexit. But when people be like, I'd rather lose my
Saba Ali: job and not have any money, but not being you know, get my country back.
Saba Ali: You know? I just I just think I I don't know. I just don't
Saba Ali: understand what's happening to this country, if I'm honest. You know? I I am
Saba Ali: I I do like politics. I do I mean, I really struggle with it at
Saba Ali: the moment. As we we were saying earlier, I get so frustrated because
Saba Ali: I I am so interested in it. But then when we're in times like
Saba Ali: today, right now, I can't listen to the news. I can't listen to
Saba Ali: anything because it just it's not good for my mental health. But I think when
Saba Ali: it comes to policing, you know, they've absolutely ruined it. And we
Saba Ali: have and I am gonna say we have such a far
Saba Ali: right leaning media who
Saba Ali: absolutely twists headlines and the information
Saba Ali: that's put out there. It's completely misinformed,
Saba Ali: complete scaremongering, and the average person that reads
Saba Ali: the news or listens to the radio is getting
Saba Ali: incorrect information. So I think, you know, the police are
Saba Ali: stuck in a hard place, and it sounds like I'm trying to
Saba Ali: make excuses for them. I'm not, but, you know, they're
Saba Ali: they're understaffed. They haven't got any money. They've had funding
Saba Ali: cuts, they've got more funding cuts that just happened, they're
Saba Ali: losing officers, their long term officers are resigning left,
Saba Ali: right, etcetera, they're in a dire straits, you
Saba Ali: know, and I really feel for them because people that, you know, I know an
Saba Ali: officer who was there for thirty one years,
Saba Ali: person of color, really compassionate, really committed to
Saba Ali: community, did amazing work with the LGBTQ plus community, And
Saba Ali: he retired, took took retirement because he was like, I just can't do it anymore.
Saba Ali: And people are losing faith, and that's because they've just been run
Saba Ali: to the ground. So in terms of why do I keep going back?
Saba Ali: Why do I keep doing it? I think because at the end of the day,
Saba Ali: our safety and our security is really important to me. And
Saba Ali: the few people that I have been able to refer and that I have put
Saba Ali: through to the police, whether it's been to do with stalking,
Saba Ali: domestic abuse, or transphobic or homophobic hate
Saba Ali: crime, have actually been dealt with really well. And they've all come back to me
Saba Ali: and said, I actually can't believe how nice that officer was, or they actually
Saba Ali: treated me really well. So on mass, they
Saba Ali: come across as evil. But one on one, when you get
Saba Ali: that, you know, one on one, they've actually been, like, I
Saba Ali: actually can't believe the police have been nice to me. So to
Saba Ali: me, that's what's important. You know, they have caught a few of the criminals from
Saba Ali: a few of the people that I've put through. And to me, it's
Saba Ali: important to have you know, if I can be a bridge and I can be
Saba Ali: a link between the community and them, to me, that's really important. And that's one
Saba Ali: of the reasons why I started doing this work. And I kind of mainly
Saba Ali: started doing it because one of the things that I realized was
Saba Ali: that there are months when there is no transphobic hate crime
Saba Ali: reported at all. And I know that that's not true.
Saba Ali: And I know that when there's third party referrals for domestic abuse,
Saba Ali: there is literally no reports for trans
Saba Ali: domestic abuse or sexual assault, and I know that that's not true. Hate crime
Saba Ali: reports are really low. So to me, I want the
Saba Ali: community to feel comfortable to report hate crime. I want
Saba Ali: them to report it. I want perpetrators to be caught. And the only way
Saba Ali: that's gonna happen is if we can kind of build that trust and confidence between
Saba Ali: the two. You know, the community need to be able to trust the police, and
Saba Ali: the police need to be able to understand the
Saba Ali: community to be able to speak to them, the community. I
Joanne Lockwood: agree. Yeah. I think the trust is low because you don't believe there's any
Joanne Lockwood: relatability there because you're Yeah. As a trans woman, as a as a trans man,
Joanne Lockwood: as someone who's non binary, you see binary police
Joanne Lockwood: officers. You see cis police officers. So you've got very low confidence
Joanne Lockwood: because let's let's face it. Being on the front line as a police officer,
Joanne Lockwood: as a trans person, that's a pretty brutal place to be as well. You you've
Joanne Lockwood: got not only the discriminate against your uniform and who you
Joanne Lockwood: are, but also your identity as well. So I guess any weakness
Joanne Lockwood: in terms of in the view of a perpetrator is a is an angle that
Joanne Lockwood: they've got to overcome. So I see it's a it's a pretty brutal environment to
Joanne Lockwood: be in. I I get it. But I I reported to hate crime probably about
Joanne Lockwood: six months ago. For some reason, I get random emails after
Joanne Lockwood: I appear on GB News or do something on the media. I get people actually
Joanne Lockwood: track me down and start sending me hate mail emails. They actually write to me.
Joanne Lockwood: I think it's brilliant. I think I've got I've created that much anchor in them.
Joanne Lockwood: They actually write me an email, and they've taken the trouble to find my email
Joanne Lockwood: address. And I this one was very vitriolic, and it was very,
Joanne Lockwood: very nasty. So I thought, oh, okay. I'll just go to online, hate crime report,
Joanne Lockwood: cut and pasted it, put all the correspondence in there. And they sent
Joanne Lockwood: an officer around to to have a chat with me. And, you know what it's
Joanne Lockwood: like? An officer turns up at your doorstep. They've got all their fluorescent gear. They've
Joanne Lockwood: got their big belt with their cut handcuffs and their nightstick
Joanne Lockwood: and their torches and their radio. They're quite an intimidating
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Kids when they turn up at your door, say, woah. Can I come in?
Joanne Lockwood: They think, blimey. And I feel intimidated already, like I've done something wrong. Yeah. Does
Joanne Lockwood: that the way they speak, their tone of voice is very authoritative,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it, deliberately? And you're there's no empathy here at all. It's just
Joanne Lockwood: I was sat on my sofa. I sat on the couch opposite. And I
Joanne Lockwood: start talking to him, and he and he immediately had empathy,
Joanne Lockwood: had compassion. He was looking through the evidence. It's it's
Joanne Lockwood: just so wrong. You shouldn't have to put up with this. This is absolutely abhorrent.
Joanne Lockwood: We're gonna do all we can to take find this person and prosecute or whatever
Joanne Lockwood: we can do. And they left. I thought, wow. Despite
Joanne Lockwood: that hard, officious exterior, there was a person in
Joanne Lockwood: there that was there for me. Mhmm. And I I
Joanne Lockwood: it was sought by faith in that hate crime process. Just
Joanne Lockwood: the fact that this person was listened to me, actually listened to me. That's
Saba Ali: so good to hear, and I'm really glad you had that experience. One of the
Saba Ali: things I kind of work with, I facilitate and advise
Saba Ali: with new recruit sergeants, inspectors, and above. One above. One of the
Saba Ali: things that we do sometimes say is, you know, the the you
Saba Ali: know, in some situations, maybe they need to go, like, in plain
Saba Ali: clothes so that they're not intimidating as like like
Saba Ali: you said, if it's something that they're not comfortable with, maybe ask, you
Saba Ali: know, does the individual want would would they prefer a man
Saba Ali: or a woman, you know, to attend, you know, to what what does the
Saba Ali: victim survive or, you know, what what they feel
Saba Ali: comfortable with. So, you know, and that tone of body language, you
Saba Ali: know, it should be softer, and it should be, you know, more compassionate.
Saba Ali: But, you know and I, I mean, I always say, like, listen. Like, please just
Saba Ali: listen to them first before you start filling out your forms and
Saba Ali: ticking your boxes because listening is just the most important thing, and
Saba Ali: that's you know? But I'm glad you had that experience.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I dare say if I was less mature,
Joanne Lockwood: younger, less less robust, less resilient, less confident,
Joanne Lockwood: I would have been very intimidated. And and that's not the person's fault. It's just
Saba Ali: No. Their persona the way that's how police are trained to be, isn't it? To
Joanne Lockwood: be to be a vicious and and an authority and and a
Joanne Lockwood: a figure that you're still dominated by. It's a uniform.
Saba Ali: Yeah. It's a uniform. How did you feel up towards them when
Saba Ali: they left? Did you I was I was very satisfied that I felt listened to.
Joanne Lockwood: I felt that they they cared. They were they were gonna fight on my behalf,
Joanne Lockwood: and, you know, they were gonna champion my cause. As it turned out, they tracked
Joanne Lockwood: the person down, and they said this person has
Joanne Lockwood: significant mental health concerns. And whilst they're not
Joanne Lockwood: stopping me taking it forward, they wonder what would become out of it. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: this this person was yeah. Does this a lot sort of thing. You know, it's
Joanne Lockwood: they they they didn't persuade me. Oh. I I was
Joanne Lockwood: I was happily guided to a conclusion where there was nothing
Joanne Lockwood: practical to be gained. This person was just bored
Joanne Lockwood: mentally mentally struggling, and it was more likely to cause more
Joanne Lockwood: problems for me by pursuing them because they were Retirement.
Joanne Lockwood: Vengeance on that. Yeah. I was happy to I was happy to go with it.
Joanne Lockwood: I felt a bit disappointed at the time that I wanted yeah. After they persuaded
Joanne Lockwood: me that did I want to go to court? I went, yeah. Okay. Fine. I
Joanne Lockwood: I was then on this sledge wondering if this person was gonna do it again.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Every time I appear on this show, is it are they gonna come
Joanne Lockwood: back? But, no, they haven't come back so far. But yeah. No. I I felt
Joanne Lockwood: satisfied, and I've reported other things in the past. I was asked to leave a
Joanne Lockwood: a bed and breakfast in Blackpool because Oh, wow. I
Joanne Lockwood: was potentially a disruption to the other guests, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, in black in Blackpool, of all places. You know? This is Oh my
Saba Ali: goodness. We've got we've got families here. You know? We've got families. What are they
Joanne Lockwood: gonna think? How are you here? Wow.
Joanne Lockwood: Luckily, I knew I knew a a police officer in the Blackpool area who,
Joanne Lockwood: I think was on the Lago team at the time, whatever. That's what they used
Joanne Lockwood: to be called. And I reported to him, and he he went out a word.
Joanne Lockwood: And sort of because I actually managed to record it, the whole conversation on my
Joanne Lockwood: phone at the time. Feeling? And it's it's pretty brutal. It's like, they're
Joanne Lockwood: going, well because I was there with my wife Marie, and Marie Marie's
Joanne Lockwood: standing next to me. And I was with a group of other trans women as
Joanne Lockwood: well. We're having a weekend at Blackpool. We're we're all kind of very respectable,
Joanne Lockwood: very chilled out. We weren't we weren't outrageous. And they said, we don't
Joanne Lockwood: allow all sex parties in there. I said, yes, a cis woman.
Joanne Lockwood: If you're if you're playing the sex card, then we're not all set all one
Joanne Lockwood: sex. Oh, yes. But you're disruptive. You're gonna be partying all night. Well, do I
Joanne Lockwood: look like I'm gonna party all night? I was 50. So I just I just
Joanne Lockwood: wanna come in and stay the night, have breakfast, and and do a bit and
Joanne Lockwood: and ride the donkeys up the beach or anything. I was like, yeah. Did you
Saba Ali: ride the donkeys up the beach? No. I didn't. No. No. No. I was a
Joanne Lockwood: bit too heavy. I was in excess of 20 stone. I think I'd have killed
Joanne Lockwood: the donkey if I did that. So I got I got a good a good
Joanne Lockwood: satisfaction there because they asked me what does I want. I just said, look. What
Joanne Lockwood: do I wanna come out of this this incident? And it's it's always for
Joanne Lockwood: me, it's education. Yeah. I'm not looking for vengeance. I'm not looking
Joanne Lockwood: for someone to be punished or have their life destroyed. I just
Joanne Lockwood: want some education to occur, and the person just turns around and says, okay. I
Joanne Lockwood: get it. Yeah. And I get it now. And maybe it won't happen to somebody
Joanne Lockwood: else. So that's all the outcomes I've ever wanted is just education.
Saba Ali: Yeah. Do you know what? I you're spot on, and I absolutely agree
Saba Ali: with you is, I mean, I I'm a great believer in restorative
Saba Ali: justice and kind of resolving conflict in a peaceful way.
Saba Ali: And sometimes, it's just a
Saba Ali: learning incident or learning piece for that individual.
Saba Ali: It's not about causing them distress or trying to make
Saba Ali: life difficult for them. It's just helping them understand that actually what you've done
Saba Ali: is not okay. And, you know, I'm a strong enough person. I can handle
Saba Ali: it. But the way you've behaved, if it was someone that was
Saba Ali: already suffering with some form of depression
Saba Ali: or with suicidal tendencies or was
Saba Ali: in distress and you behave like that, you don't know the
Saba Ali: detrimental effects you could have on that individual, and that's not okay.
Saba Ali: So, you know, I I I love that, you know, you're strong enough to be
Saba Ali: able to do that, and I I really applaud you for that because a lot
Saba Ali: of people wouldn't do that. They'd want revenge. And I just think sometimes
Saba Ali: revenge isn't always the best way forward. It really is making sure
Saba Ali: that person can see if they can see where they've gone wrong
Saba Ali: and why they shouldn't have behaved the way they're done. Because I think in
Saba Ali: the short time that I've known you or or the few years that I've known
Saba Ali: you, I definitely know you wouldn't be up all night partying
Saba Ali: or having sex parties as they say. Is that what happened? So I I I
Joanne Lockwood: must have missed the invite to that one. Now I've
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm I'm too long in the tooth for, for that now.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I do I don't even enjoy drag karaoke
Joanne Lockwood: anymore. It's like Oh, stormy. Yeah. No. We we can't
Saba Ali: go there because that'll go down a whole another tangent, and
Saba Ali: I'll end up people will end up hating me if we start going down the
Saba Ali: drug route. I do like my karaoke, though. I've I've I
Joanne Lockwood: suppose since I stopped drinking, I'm I'm not as as outgoing as I was. But
Joanne Lockwood: when I was drinking, I was always grab the microphone and, and try and
Joanne Lockwood: do Jolene or something badly or, Suspicious Minds was my Alvis'
Joanne Lockwood: favorite. That was always one of my go to, Suspicious Minds. Oh, wow.
Joanne Lockwood: Because I was caught in a trap, a bit of Born This Way, a bit
Joanne Lockwood: of Gaga, a bit of that kind of stuff. Yeah. All that kind of but,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I I did like a bit of a sing like no one's listening, and
Joanne Lockwood: then the people who are listening wish they weren't because I'm I don't have a
Joanne Lockwood: voice. I have a have a scream, which is a but
Joanne Lockwood: I'm quite happy to express myself loudly and, have fun. So
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. But no. I I think sometimes we get we get we do get stereotyped
Joanne Lockwood: as that that, the RuPaul Drag Race type act
Joanne Lockwood: or the the characters from the nineteen seventies. And everyone
Joanne Lockwood: to their own. I'm not thinking against in fact, I embrace people who want to
Joanne Lockwood: express themselves in using drag as a performance and and
Joanne Lockwood: dressing up and doing what they do. Absolutely. I think there's some amazing people out
Joanne Lockwood: there taking that art forward and
Joanne Lockwood: express themselves and challenging people's perspectives. You probably know Daniel
Joanne Lockwood: Lisfeld. I met Daniel Yes. At events several years ago, and what he
Joanne Lockwood: does with clothing as a performance, as an art. Yes. It's
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely incredible. I think he is he is stunning, isn't he? And not
Joanne Lockwood: necessarily in a in a raw beauty way, but in a creation way. So the
Joanne Lockwood: whole everything is is bespoke. It's a different outfit each time, and
Joanne Lockwood: it's incredible. It upcycles everything he wears,
Saba Ali: and you're a it's a working piece of art.
Joanne Lockwood: Working piece of art. Yeah. And, yeah, I had I had a great night chatting
Joanne Lockwood: to him. I think it was a a queer Britain fundraiser a few years ago
Joanne Lockwood: I met. Oh, Yeah. And, I think I think because he's quite a tall
Joanne Lockwood: person. He's a very Tommy puts all of his outfit on,
Joanne Lockwood: he's very, very tall with all this out. And I he was standing on his
Joanne Lockwood: own. And I just I guess, because he's a he's a
Joanne Lockwood: statue of art sort of thing. So he deliberately wants to stand there. And I
Joanne Lockwood: just never I started talking to him, and I and I spoke to him about
Joanne Lockwood: an hour and a half. We're just chatting away and doing the canopies and the
Joanne Lockwood: drink and stuff. And it was yeah. I had a great hour with him, and
Joanne Lockwood: I hope to get him on the podcast at some point. He keeps saying yes,
Joanne Lockwood: but he he'll never manage it because he's such a busy person, haven't he? He
Saba Ali: is. He's done, we we've done some advocacy and
Saba Ali: campaigning work together, in the past. So we
Saba Ali: we've worked on a few projects together, because he does use a lot of
Saba Ali: his art for activism as well. But he's got
Saba Ali: an absolute heart of gold, and he's so
Saba Ali: just like you said, when you look at him, you just wouldn't imagine it, but
Saba Ali: he's got one of the softest, most compassionate people,
Saba Ali: you or me, and Yeah. Absolutely huge, huge
Saba Ali: ally for the trans community. Really not afraid to speak
Saba Ali: his mind. You know, he really says it as it is. Have a lot of
Saba Ali: time Very well connected globally, though, isn't he? He's, yeah, done some
Joanne Lockwood: work with rulers and leaders of Far East countries
Joanne Lockwood: and across America, and it yeah. He's he's had some amazing
Joanne Lockwood: gigs, if you like. Yep. Yeah. And then he's incredibly well connected.
Saba Ali: He's introduced me to a few people as well. Yeah. He's amazing. In
Saba Ali: fact, he introduced me to Tine, Tine O'Connell, doing
Saba Ali: some stuff with her. So she's, she does some incredible
Saba Ali: stuff. She's a British historian.
Saba Ali: So I know she's writing a book at the moment where she hopes to launch
Saba Ali: later this year on Malthref, which will be really interesting. So we'll have
Saba Ali: to bring you along to that one when she launches that. Oh, I'd love to.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd love to. So you're not coercing me. You're just offering me an
Joanne Lockwood: opportunity to Oh, no. I'm just telling you. I'm inviting you. Yeah. I'm in. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: in. I'm in. Yeah. I don't know what it is yet, but I'm I'm in.
Saba Ali: Yeah. It'll be a book launch for her book, Malefrey.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That'd be fabulous. So going back to when we started this conversation, you were
Joanne Lockwood: talking about some of your early childhood trauma of your mum,
Joanne Lockwood: your mother, and your home environment. I was a trustee of
Joanne Lockwood: AKT for a while, the formerly the Alberta County Trust, the
Joanne Lockwood: LGBTQ plus human homeless charity. And some of the the stats
Joanne Lockwood: they came out with are homelessness amongst young queer people, especially
Joanne Lockwood: young TQ people, is,
Joanne Lockwood: disproportionate. And if you're black, intersectionally black, it's even more
Joanne Lockwood: disproportionate. A lot of people, even in 2025, are
Joanne Lockwood: being forced out to the streets, living with families that are toxic.
Joanne Lockwood: How can young queer people or anybody who's living
Joanne Lockwood: in that toxic environment get out? Because when we're when we're
Joanne Lockwood: young, our family is everything. Yes. And we don't know anybody else. It's, so
Saba Ali: difficult. I tried to run away from home when I was 15, but I got
Saba Ali: caught.
Saba Ali: And, yeah, it's it takes a lot. I mean, you've you've
Saba Ali: either got to be a absolute rock bottom to just
Saba Ali: walk out the door and leave everything. As a young person, you don't
Saba Ali: it's not like you, you know, you've got a job and other support and things
Saba Ali: that are gonna provide for you. But to kinda literally just
Saba Ali: walk out of your home and leave everything behind, that's
Saba Ali: really in a desperate state. There aren't many refuges. There's
Saba Ali: the, Outside Project and,
Saba Ali: or Star is it Star Support? Who,
Saba Ali: I think Star Support is the first
Saba Ali: LGBT refuge that opened in London, which,
Saba Ali: sadly, Marie opened, and she passed away last year
Saba Ali: last year. And I remember speaking to her just before she
Saba Ali: let me know that it it was opening. We both used to be
Saba Ali: trustees for Gallup. So I used to be trustees for Gallup, and that's how I
Saba Ali: met Marie. And I remember her saying to me that, you know, they already had
Saba Ali: a waiting list, and they were full, and it hadn't
Saba Ali: even opened. You know, I
Saba Ali: think one of the things that I'm really aware of and one of the things
Saba Ali: that actually I speak to the I've spoken to the police about
Saba Ali: is, you know, where do we signpost young people
Saba Ali: in their time of need? Because there are no refuges or
Saba Ali: places for young people, especially if
Saba Ali: you're queer, it's even harder because you've got that intersectionality, you've
Saba Ali: got the homophobia, transphobia where
Saba Ali: people You have the added fear of coming
Saba Ali: out or being your authentic selves around people.
Saba Ali: There've been incidents of young people that have left home because of conversion
Saba Ali: therapy, because, you know, if they weren't conformed to what their family
Saba Ali: wants, then they're gonna be subjected to talk to I call
Saba Ali: it talk to therapy. I think conversion, it's not really converting someone.
Saba Ali: It's torturing them. Yeah. So it's it's a really difficult
Saba Ali: situation. And there there's just not enough support for LGBT
Saba Ali: plus people out there, especially the trans community and
Saba Ali: even more so for people that are marginalized within the
Saba Ali: community. So when it comes to disability, when it comes to faith, when it comes
Saba Ali: to race, you know, if you add that on top of it, it's
Saba Ali: even harder. There's just nothing out there. And
Saba Ali: it it it's a conversation I've had a few times with a few people that,
Saba Ali: you know, what support is out there? There's just there's
Saba Ali: nothing. And on the back
Saba Ali: of I think a few years ago, Gallup did some research,
Saba Ali: I think, when the whole anti trans
Saba Ali: rhetoric really, you know, when excuse my French, but when shit hit
Saba Ali: the fan a few years ago, there were refugees
Saba Ali: that were turning away trans people because it was causing
Saba Ali: problems because gender critical people were turning up at their
Saba Ali: doors, or people within the refuge didn't want them there.
Saba Ali: So for the trans community in fact, this was about
Saba Ali: eighteen months ago, because I remember we discussed it in a way day for Gallup,
Saba Ali: the trustees did, that, you know, for trans people, even more so when
Saba Ali: it comes to homelessness, they have absolutely nowhere to go.
Saba Ali: So they either end up on the streets, they end up in
Saba Ali: potentially could end up in sex work to get the money to
Saba Ali: kind of rent or stay somewhere or be in an
Saba Ali: accommodation. But it's horrendous out there.
Saba Ali: It's really not safe at all, and there is nothing. You know,
Saba Ali: funding's being cut left, right, and center. Fund is being cut from
Saba Ali: institutions, let alone charities. It's
Saba Ali: it's awful. There is nowhere for people to turn. You know? We
Saba Ali: need more support. We need more homes. We need
Saba Ali: more, services to be able to cater and
Saba Ali: support these individuals because the situation's getting worse.
Saba Ali: And, I follow a lot of work that hope not hate do,
Saba Ali: just because I I sort of, I do a lot
Saba Ali: of stuff around hate crime. So and I'm really interested in the work that
Saba Ali: hope not hate do around the far right. And, you know,
Saba Ali: they said at the beginning of last year that there would be a rise of
Saba Ali: the far right and what they would do. And we we've seen that. And
Saba Ali: we've seen, you know, in the last kinda couple of months what's been happening in
Saba Ali: the media. And it's you know, sadly, I don't think it's gonna get any
Saba Ali: better. I still think it's gonna get worse, especially with social media
Saba Ali: taking away all the filters, and people seem to be more emboldened
Saba Ali: at the moment. And Yeah. I don't don't wanna say the t word, but
Saba Ali: with the t word back, it he's just given carte blanche for people
Saba Ali: to do and say and behave how they want. We've got leaders on
Saba Ali: stages doing Nazi salute, so it's not a
Saba Ali: good place. We we need support, you know, which is why to me,
Saba Ali: even if it's just meeting in a park or meeting anywhere or
Saba Ali: doing online support groups, being able to just listen to
Saba Ali: people, speak to people, knowing that they've got someone they can turn
Saba Ali: to and speak to is so important and why we need to come together. We
Saba Ali: need to sort of start working together. It's sad to me that I see
Joanne Lockwood: many people in the communities where we share trans,
Joanne Lockwood: queer are making public statements on Facebook about them pulling off the
Joanne Lockwood: platform. And, yeah, I mean, people worry that it's gonna become very
Joanne Lockwood: toxic, but there is a lot of good in the groups and the
Joanne Lockwood: private chats and the environments there. So I'm
Joanne Lockwood: really keen, as I would call it, hold the rope. I'm not letting go. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: not gonna exit place by Facebook because there's so many
Joanne Lockwood: supportive groups, so many people out there that I know that they've got my
Joanne Lockwood: back. We can talk about things. I think if we're not careful, what we end
Joanne Lockwood: up doing is we end up being driven out of this supportive
Joanne Lockwood: environment by these big, glib
Joanne Lockwood: statements. I think what we should do is just stand in
Joanne Lockwood: protest and say, I'm not leaving anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. And I, hopefully,
Joanne Lockwood: Facebook won't become a a tumbleweed zone for queer people because there's
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of a lot of private groups and communities out there that are safe
Joanne Lockwood: spaces. I hope so because I don't really use Facebook. I mean, I I
Saba Ali: haven't done for a long time. I don't. I can only manage one or two
Saba Ali: social media platforms. But I hope so because I think that that community
Saba Ali: focused community groups is so important at the
Saba Ali: moment. The word chosen family gets used a lot, and I think at this
Saba Ali: moment, we need our chosen family. We need some few around us,
Saba Ali: whether it's groups of two or three. You know, you only need one person
Saba Ali: to listen to you to feel, you know, that the problem's halved. You know,
Saba Ali: I I I do believe in that saying that inner problem shared is problem halved
Saba Ali: because I do it all the time and I feel better the minute I've let
Saba Ali: it go and released it. And sometimes
Saba Ali: it's not necessarily solving a problem. It's just being able to share it and
Saba Ali: telling someone that, look, oh my God, this is how I'm feeling. And knowing that
Saba Ali: someone's there listening to you, supporting you,
Saba Ali: it you know, it's it's enough in your time and need. Big scene unheard is
Joanne Lockwood: so I often think about it. If you think about the the analogy, blowing into
Joanne Lockwood: a straw and blowing into a balloon. If you're blowing into a straw, there's no
Joanne Lockwood: pushback, there's no back pressure. You've no idea if you're making a difference. But as
Joanne Lockwood: soon as you pump into a balloon, you can feel it. So when you've got
Joanne Lockwood: support, you've chosen family, you've got people around you, even though it's just
Joanne Lockwood: reflect, share you, have a hug, have a virtual hug,
Joanne Lockwood: have a tell me more. It's it's a way of
Joanne Lockwood: really allowing yourself to sort of have that human connection, that
Joanne Lockwood: human contact, isn't it? Yeah. Definitely. How do you what
Saba Ali: do you do to sort of unwind or have downtime or look
Saba Ali: after yourself? Because, I mean, you do a lot of
Saba Ali: stuff as well. So how do you Well, something
Joanne Lockwood: wife, Marie, who loves me to bits, and we are soulmates and best
Joanne Lockwood: friends, and we do lots of everything together when we're not when we're not doing
Joanne Lockwood: work and stuff. But we we work together. She's she's part of the business. So
Joanne Lockwood: my mom is incredibly supportive. Yeah. I when I transitioned eight, nine
Joanne Lockwood: years ago, she's become one of my biggest allies, and she'll advocate for me.
Joanne Lockwood: My our two children and their their their partners, it wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: necessarily get me and fully understand me that we have a great family. So
Joanne Lockwood: we do Sunday lunches, we do family stuff, we go to the cinema. That's so
Saba Ali: nice. So I live in a very, very, very safe
Joanne Lockwood: family unit. So and I and I have an
Joanne Lockwood: incredible network of of of business friends who are a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of them are real friends, around the world that I've built over the last
Joanne Lockwood: eight or nine years. I'm incredibly privileged that I
Joanne Lockwood: I have that network, and I've got my my my my my real family
Joanne Lockwood: and my chosen family, and they're all together. And they're so,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, for me, is he I say, I'm lucky. I'm privileged.
Joanne Lockwood: And I but I know many people who are isolated. Their their home life is
Joanne Lockwood: toxic or there's a conflict there between who they
Joanne Lockwood: are coming out, having to behave in certain ways around certain
Joanne Lockwood: family members. So, yeah, whatever I did write, I did write.
Saba Ali: That's so nice to hear, and it's so lovely to hear as well
Saba Ali: because I think amongst all the doom and gloom, when you do hear positive
Saba Ali: stories, it it is uplifting, and it does kind
Saba Ali: of make you feel warm that there is that goodness
Saba Ali: out there as well. It's not just all gloom, and people are
Joanne Lockwood: So Marie and I want other people to feel that way. So it's
Joanne Lockwood: it's part of Marie's Mhmm. If you like, drive to to work with me
Joanne Lockwood: in the business is to enlighten the world
Joanne Lockwood: that it doesn't have to be doom and gloom. I appreciate for some it is,
Joanne Lockwood: but we wanna rewrite that book. You know, the book that says you're gonna lose
Joanne Lockwood: your house, you're gonna lose your car, you're gonna be fine, you're just everyone's gonna
Joanne Lockwood: hate you and always rejected. We said, no. No. We're not we're not we're not
Joanne Lockwood: having that book. We're we're writing our own book. That's about how families can
Joanne Lockwood: succeed, how just because someone is comes out as
Joanne Lockwood: trans, queer, gay, or whatever they come out as, It doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: have to be the end of their life. And we we should people hope either
Joanne Lockwood: with their traditional family or help with their chosen family
Joanne Lockwood: and of support because living the lie or living in a box
Joanne Lockwood: is is not not a future for anybody. They shouldn't have to live that way.
Saba Ali: No. Do you know you were reminded me actually of something that I I remember
Saba Ali: having a conversation since a few years ago with someone, and they were saying,
Saba Ali: one of the things that we don't do as a community is
Saba Ali: actually celebrate people when they do come out or when they do
Saba Ali: transition. We always mourn the loss that, like, you know, parents
Saba Ali: lost their child you know, their son or their daughter, but we never
Saba Ali: celebrate the welcoming of a son or a daughter once a
Saba Ali: transition's taken place or welcoming that someone's come out and
Saba Ali: celebrating their true authentic selves. I think we need to
Saba Ali: do more of that in the community. We need to celebrate more and enjoy
Saba Ali: some of the times as well. I mean, Marie Marie often tells the story that
Joanne Lockwood: when I when I transitioned, there was a real polarization between the support
Joanne Lockwood: I got, which is very, very positive. Everyone's like, you're brave, the big hugs,
Joanne Lockwood: and go girl, all this other stuff. And Marie got the sadness.
Joanne Lockwood: Marie got the, oh, it's, you know, not too old. You could get
Joanne Lockwood: divorced and find somebody else. Don't worry about it. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: move on. She felt just, like, told her. No. It was, like, she even worked
Joanne Lockwood: for counseling with somebody who's just been out through this. And
Joanne Lockwood: the counselor's almost, like, taken down the path of, I can help you get over
Joanne Lockwood: this relationship and move on. And we said, no. No. No. I want you to
Joanne Lockwood: help me get into this relationship and make it work. But that was ten years
Joanne Lockwood: ago, so I don't know if the the counseling or support you get is better
Joanne Lockwood: now. But, no, Marie if you talk to Marie, she always felt the one who's
Joanne Lockwood: two steps behind. Everyone loved me and was or I didn't know what to say
Joanne Lockwood: though. It's like she was the bad smell, and I was kinda like the celebrity.
Joanne Lockwood: So it really was a problem for maybe maybe it's just my
Joanne Lockwood: personality type, but I kind of owned it quite quick quite quickly. So
Joanne Lockwood: but, no. I mean, now that that's our that's our our drive is to try
Joanne Lockwood: and show that you can scam work. Just
Joanne Lockwood: because I'm trans doesn't mean to say I'm I'm gonna fit all the stereotypes that
Joanne Lockwood: people can throw at me. I actually had quite a few trans couples
Saba Ali: where they have transitioned and stayed together. I think I know about
Saba Ali: four or five, and they're really happy in their relationships.
Saba Ali: Because I guess you fall in love with the person, don't you? The inside
Saba Ali: of a person, not the kind of outside. I don't know
Saba Ali: Yeah. If that makes sense. But it is it is a big ask, you know.
Joanne Lockwood: If you look at it, what you're asking someone to do is question their
Joanne Lockwood: whole sexual identity as well. Mhmm. I I'd question my gender
Joanne Lockwood: identity, but my gender identity has a an outward
Joanne Lockwood: impact on how they see themselves in public as two women or
Joanne Lockwood: two men together, whereas they were seen as a a traditional
Joanne Lockwood: couple. Now we're seen as a queer couple. So Marie had to come out as
Joanne Lockwood: queer, as bi, and she had to address her own sexuality.
Joanne Lockwood: So everybody in a relationship Yeah. Wants or is able to or
Joanne Lockwood: needs to to make the change. So I can't understand why it's hard for
Joanne Lockwood: trans people and their parts to stay together because we're asking everybody to reorientate
Joanne Lockwood: who they are. I was bad enough for Phillip Schofield coming
Joanne Lockwood: out in a in a relationship. So yeah. But it's a big big ask.
Joanne Lockwood: I I think early on, I asked myself the question in my head, how would
Joanne Lockwood: I feel if Marie transitioned? Wow. Could I could I cope?
Joanne Lockwood: And I I sat there and I've I I would honestly openly say, I know
Joanne Lockwood: I would struggle. Knowing everything I know, I would struggle to come to
Joanne Lockwood: terms with it. I'm not saying I wouldn't come to terms with it. Mhmm. But
Joanne Lockwood: it would take all of my personal Mhmm. Thinking and
Joanne Lockwood: support to make it happen. So, yeah, it's it is a big
Joanne Lockwood: ask. And I think sometimes you just think, hard transition. You'll get
Joanne Lockwood: over it, and it'll all be easy. I respect the fact it's not easy. That's
Joanne Lockwood: it requires work, like anything. Well, she's definitely one to keep then.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, yes. No. She's buying. Don't it's not going anywhere. No. Hands off. Hands
Joanne Lockwood: off. Hands off. No. She's
Saba Ali: she's a diamond. The, Beyond Reflections event. I do remember.
Saba Ali: Yeah. She's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. No. She's, she's one
Joanne Lockwood: in a million. She's my she's my one in a million or our. We share
Joanne Lockwood: we share each other. So, no, she's fantastic. We we live, love, laugh. We
Joanne Lockwood: shout and scream and fight like everybody else. But, no, it's a it's a strong
Joanne Lockwood: relationship. That's what makes it fun. There'll be boring. Yeah. It was just all kinda
Saba Ali: flat lined and what I know. Yeah. You got to spice up a bit.
Joanne Lockwood: Sarah, this has been an absolute fantastic conversation. I
Joanne Lockwood: can't believe we've been dashing for now. So, how do people get a
Joanne Lockwood: hold of you? I you can get me, on
Saba Ali: Instagram or just Saba or Saba Celebrity Care.
Saba Ali: There's a whole other conversation for that name.
Saba Ali: Or you can get me on LinkedIn. It's Saba Ali and then
Saba Ali: followed by f r s a.
Saba Ali: So I use LinkedIn quite a lot, so that's a good place to get me.
Saba Ali: And then you can find out more about who I am and what I do.
Joanne Lockwood: Saba, s a b a, Ali Ali. And there aren't many of
Joanne Lockwood: you out there, so it's probably easy to find you. Yep. Just look for
Saba Ali: the kind of round head, sort of semi shaved
Saba Ali: head, and it's Big glasses. Yeah. Yeah. Love your
Joanne Lockwood: glasses. They're great glasses. Love them. Thank you. They're my computer
Saba Ali: glasses, actually. I've started wearing them. Otherwise, I get headaches because
Saba Ali: I'm I'm used to to taking, like, screen breaks. And I
Saba Ali: realized that I'm sat on my computer for, like, four hours, and then I'm like,
Saba Ali: oh my god. I haven't moved. It's pretty bad. Wow. Thank you so
Joanne Lockwood: much for your time today, and, look forward to catching you up at one of
Joanne Lockwood: the RSA circles. And anybody else who's listening right now, if you wanna get stuck
Joanne Lockwood: in, you've heard something here, contact Saba, and you'll find more about these circles and
Joanne Lockwood: or the fellowship of the RSA as well. So, Saba, thank you. Thank you so
Saba Ali: much, Sean. I'd loved it. It's been brilliant. Thank you. Thanks, Jo.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
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Joanne Lockwood: is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
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Joanne Lockwood: episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.