WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:19.205 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:19.825 --> 00:00:23.425 belonging, and societal transformation. Ever 5 00:00:23.425 --> 00:00:27.265 wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not 6 00:00:27.265 --> 00:00:30.550 only belongs but thrives? You're not 7 00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:34.149 alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:34.690 --> 00:00:38.629 challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate 9 00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:42.465 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.465 --> 00:00:46.385 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.385 --> 00:00:49.925 connect, reflect, and inspire action 12 00:00:49.985 --> 00:00:53.684 together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation 13 00:00:53.745 --> 00:00:55.344 too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.344 --> 00:00:59.320 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to 15 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.700 share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:07.160 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:10.780 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:15.425 --> 00:01:19.285 Today is episode 157 with the title, 19 00:01:19.905 --> 00:01:23.745 Raising Voices, Shaping Change. And I have 20 00:01:23.745 --> 00:01:27.285 the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sarah McCracken. 21 00:01:28.380 --> 00:01:32.320 Sarah is an award winning PR and communication specialist, 22 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:37.500 empowering women and diverse voices to raise their profiles and 23 00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:41.100 create meaningful change. And when I asked Sarah to describe her 24 00:01:41.100 --> 00:01:44.775 superpower, she said she said that it is helping others 25 00:01:45.235 --> 00:01:48.695 find confidence in their visibility and voice. 26 00:01:49.075 --> 00:01:52.915 Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you 27 00:01:52.915 --> 00:01:56.710 so much for having me this afternoon. Oh, it's absolute 28 00:01:56.710 --> 00:02:00.630 pleasure. And, for the accent, I'm guessing you're for 29 00:02:00.630 --> 00:02:04.550 the Emerald Isle somewhere in there. Yes. Indeed. I 30 00:02:04.550 --> 00:02:08.470 am in County Down, Northern Ireland, and we're about maybe 25 31 00:02:08.470 --> 00:02:12.435 miles south of Belfast. So nice nice and handy. And, you know, if I'm going 32 00:02:12.435 --> 00:02:16.035 further south, we're maybe about an hour and twenty minutes from Dublin, so I really 33 00:02:16.035 --> 00:02:19.955 have the best of those worlds here. Beautiful. My wife and I 34 00:02:19.955 --> 00:02:23.715 went on a a holiday to Dublin in the summer, and we drove north to 35 00:02:23.715 --> 00:02:27.310 the because they don't have national trust in Dub in in Southern Ireland, in The 36 00:02:27.310 --> 00:02:31.310 Republic Of Ireland. So we had to drive across the border to Northern Ireland to 37 00:02:31.310 --> 00:02:34.990 find a national trust property, which we visited. It was quite high. A a trek 38 00:02:34.990 --> 00:02:38.590 from County Cowan, but, yeah, we were determined to find a national trust property to 39 00:02:38.590 --> 00:02:42.395 visit and, yeah, had a good time. And I've been to Belfast a few 40 00:02:42.395 --> 00:02:45.935 times, and I've got happy memories of going to Newfernard, 41 00:02:46.315 --> 00:02:50.235 which can't be far from here. You're never far from anywhere 42 00:02:50.235 --> 00:02:53.435 here, to be honest. But, yes, next time you're over then, we'll have to meet 43 00:02:53.435 --> 00:02:57.430 up and get a week of tea. Yeah. That sounds great. Sounds great. If you're 44 00:02:57.430 --> 00:03:01.430 listening to this and you're wondering why my voice sounds a little different to usual, 45 00:03:01.430 --> 00:03:04.709 I think I've got a bit of a throat thing going on. So every so 46 00:03:04.709 --> 00:03:08.629 often, my voice cuts out. So please bear with sure. I'll be fine. 47 00:03:08.629 --> 00:03:12.565 As a I've got strep cells. I've got herbal tea in front of me, 48 00:03:12.945 --> 00:03:16.165 so I'm sure we cope. So Sarah 49 00:03:16.625 --> 00:03:19.905 Sarah, what makes you tick? You know, why do you do what you do? You 50 00:03:19.905 --> 00:03:23.285 know, you're in in PR, but why does visibility, 51 00:03:23.585 --> 00:03:27.420 diversity, inclusion resonate with you so 52 00:03:27.420 --> 00:03:31.340 much? But but the more I did, the more I headed towards, like, 53 00:03:31.340 --> 00:03:35.340 the PR and marketing side of things, and I just absolutely love it. I 54 00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:39.040 get such a buzz out of, you know, seeing things in the media, prepping 55 00:03:39.100 --> 00:03:42.985 spokespeople, seeing you know, prepping people to go on podcast, but it whatever it 56 00:03:42.985 --> 00:03:46.584 happens to be. Just the more I worked within sort of the 57 00:03:46.584 --> 00:03:50.265 communication sector, you know, the more I was able to to 58 00:03:50.265 --> 00:03:53.850 create that change. So I've worked in the health care 59 00:03:53.850 --> 00:03:57.770 sector, the environment sector. I worked for a political party. Once upon 60 00:03:57.770 --> 00:04:01.530 a time, I worked in education as well as working for businesses and 61 00:04:01.530 --> 00:04:05.310 entrepreneurs. The more I worked in that, the more I could see how communications 62 00:04:05.610 --> 00:04:08.935 could create change, particularly around campaigning. 63 00:04:09.555 --> 00:04:13.555 So, I mean, many years ago, you could smoke in public workplaces, in Northern 64 00:04:13.555 --> 00:04:16.355 Ireland, obviously, right across The UK. And in 65 00:04:16.355 --> 00:04:20.355 02/2006, the charity I worked with at the time was involved in the smoke free 66 00:04:20.355 --> 00:04:24.169 Northern Ireland coalition and that campaign to bring in legislation to ban smoking in 67 00:04:24.169 --> 00:04:27.850 public places. And that was kind of my first kind of we can do this 68 00:04:27.850 --> 00:04:30.729 kind of moment, you know, when you're there at a speech and the secretary of 69 00:04:30.729 --> 00:04:34.410 state is making these announcements, and you've got your your clients from from the charity 70 00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:38.185 with you. You and the stakeholders of people are gonna be really impacted for the 71 00:04:38.185 --> 00:04:41.225 better as a result of this, and it was just brilliant to be part of 72 00:04:41.225 --> 00:04:45.005 that. So, yeah, since then, I've worked on other campaigns most recently 73 00:04:45.305 --> 00:04:49.305 working on the campaign to bring in climate change legislation in Northern Ireland, which 74 00:04:49.305 --> 00:04:53.020 was brought in now full of years ago, and my team at the charity I 75 00:04:53.020 --> 00:04:56.060 worked with at the time worked really hard on that as well. Oh, sounds really 76 00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:59.900 interesting. I love the idea of alpaca farm. Some 77 00:04:59.900 --> 00:05:03.900 reason, my my daughter keeps a couple years ago, 78 00:05:03.900 --> 00:05:07.685 she she bought me a a present, which was taking the alpacas for a 79 00:05:07.685 --> 00:05:11.525 walk, and I've I've got a little alpacas to see over there. But, 80 00:05:11.525 --> 00:05:15.525 yeah, it's, is that an alpaca jumper you're wearing at 81 00:05:15.525 --> 00:05:18.085 the moment? We we'd go to shows and, you know, we'd have them on the 82 00:05:18.085 --> 00:05:21.860 stand, and I'd be talking to people like yourself who just love alpacas. 83 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:26.240 Never took one for a walk, so I'm not sure that would have ended terribly 84 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.120 well, but they are very docile. Because this is getting on to a whole other 85 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:32.985 podcast episode here, but they're they're very amenable. They're very docile. They do make good 86 00:05:33.224 --> 00:05:37.145 pets. They're probably easier to manage than sheep. So they're you know, people do 87 00:05:37.145 --> 00:05:40.664 absolutely love them. Yeah. You're right. We've got a bit off topic 88 00:05:40.664 --> 00:05:44.365 there. They've versed in all packets. Yeah. 89 00:05:45.145 --> 00:05:48.125 So PR. I mean, I'm I'm a great believer that 90 00:05:49.440 --> 00:05:53.039 organizations need authenticity in 91 00:05:53.039 --> 00:05:56.960 their in their brand, their values, their messaging. And a lot, I 92 00:05:56.960 --> 00:05:59.539 I guess, is is PR trying to align 93 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.940 internal who do we think we are versus the external public. 94 00:06:05.105 --> 00:06:07.985 Who do they think we are and trying to get that alignment of messaging, isn't 95 00:06:07.985 --> 00:06:11.985 it? That that's not always easy. No. No. It's not. And, you know, when 96 00:06:11.985 --> 00:06:15.685 I'm doing PR training, I'm always sort 97 00:06:16.465 --> 00:06:20.230 of tell telling people or working with them to understand 98 00:06:20.290 --> 00:06:24.230 that, you know, if you have a really shoddy reputation, no amount of PR 99 00:06:24.450 --> 00:06:28.210 is gonna help that. You will get found out. So it is, like you said, 100 00:06:28.210 --> 00:06:32.025 about aligning what are your business goals with what you 101 00:06:32.025 --> 00:06:35.705 want to project in the public domain and making sure that those are aligned. But, 102 00:06:35.705 --> 00:06:38.425 you know, n is n is n is n dodgy, n is n underhand. You're 103 00:06:38.425 --> 00:06:42.025 you're gonna get caught out. I I do have an issue with the word spin. 104 00:06:42.025 --> 00:06:45.229 Do you know that that that doesn't help when people refer to PR people as 105 00:06:45.229 --> 00:06:49.150 you spin doctors, particularly in the in the political sphere. But, it is about working 106 00:06:49.150 --> 00:06:52.030 really hard just to find out what it is. What is that change you're trying 107 00:06:52.030 --> 00:06:55.965 to make in the world and breaking that down and working out what communications? Who 108 00:06:55.965 --> 00:06:59.165 can you engage with? What is it you want to say, and how might you 109 00:06:59.165 --> 00:07:02.925 say it to your target audience just to to create that change or raise that 110 00:07:02.925 --> 00:07:06.925 profile or increase that visibility? The spin that you're referring to there, I suppose, 111 00:07:06.925 --> 00:07:10.860 is is is crafting a message in a positive light, I suppose, is the, 112 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:15.180 the translation of the word spinner. It could be, but, again, 113 00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:19.180 you've referred to that authenticity. Again, I struggle with the word authentic because it sounds 114 00:07:19.180 --> 00:07:22.335 like you're trying too hard. So for me, you know, if I'm working, if I'm 115 00:07:22.335 --> 00:07:26.095 coaching with individuals, it's about how to be yourself and just bring 116 00:07:26.095 --> 00:07:30.015 forward all the really the good things about what you do and what you say 117 00:07:30.015 --> 00:07:33.935 and just trying trying to emphasize that rather than be something that 118 00:07:33.935 --> 00:07:36.900 you're not because because that could be really difficult as well. But, yes, be being 119 00:07:36.900 --> 00:07:40.500 authentic is key. Being yourself, I do love a bit of LinkedIn content, I have 120 00:07:40.500 --> 00:07:44.420 to say, and I I will equally post about PR today, and I will 121 00:07:44.420 --> 00:07:48.045 post about my chickens tomorrow because because because that's that's who I happen to be. 122 00:07:48.045 --> 00:07:51.985 I must do an alpaca post actually, overdue one of those. Walking with alpacas. 123 00:07:52.125 --> 00:07:55.485 I think that's the title of a book. I was like, yeah. I have to 124 00:07:55.485 --> 00:07:59.185 author that one. So when you're when you're working with organizations, 125 00:07:59.485 --> 00:08:03.090 you know, we're trying to avoid the word spin. We're trying to avoid the words 126 00:08:03.090 --> 00:08:07.010 authenticity or authentic. Where do organizations go 127 00:08:07.010 --> 00:08:10.930 wrong? I mean, I think we've implied that, sometimes what happens 128 00:08:10.930 --> 00:08:13.830 is they try and pretend to be what they're not. 129 00:08:15.974 --> 00:08:19.914 How do you encourage them to to move past that and be honest or 130 00:08:20.455 --> 00:08:24.395 or actually change, or actually change their output? 131 00:08:25.175 --> 00:08:28.970 Yeah. I I think the first step for me is about recognizing what PR actually 132 00:08:28.970 --> 00:08:32.830 is. PR is about managing your reputation. It is about engaging 133 00:08:33.289 --> 00:08:37.130 with your stakeholders so that is speaking with them as well as listening to what 134 00:08:37.130 --> 00:08:40.890 they have to say. So it it sits alongside your marketing and 135 00:08:40.890 --> 00:08:44.435 advertising mix. So marketing is clearly about selling stuff as as is 136 00:08:45.055 --> 00:08:48.975 advertising. So it is different to that. But in terms of, you know, 137 00:08:48.975 --> 00:08:52.415 working with the businesses, it's about just trying to identify what is it is they're 138 00:08:52.415 --> 00:08:56.255 trying to achieve and how can communications help that. So we've got all the 139 00:08:56.255 --> 00:08:59.315 marketing going on, and you've got the adverts and the Facebook stuff. 140 00:09:00.310 --> 00:09:04.230 But equally, who do you need to be listening to? What kind of messages 141 00:09:04.230 --> 00:09:07.270 do you want to create about your your product business or service that you need 142 00:09:07.270 --> 00:09:10.950 to be speaking to your audience about? And it could be be trying to work 143 00:09:10.950 --> 00:09:14.685 with a politician to bring about legislative change, or it could be 144 00:09:14.685 --> 00:09:18.525 about working with an individual who just wants to, you know, get that 145 00:09:18.525 --> 00:09:22.445 confidence to raise their profile and visibility and just the principles are the 146 00:09:22.445 --> 00:09:25.645 same. You know, what's the outcome you want to achieve and then working through how 147 00:09:25.645 --> 00:09:29.470 we might achieve that. You said you said that marketing's all about selling stuff I 148 00:09:29.470 --> 00:09:33.390 can hear. Yeah. Every marketing person out, they go, no. We're more just selling 149 00:09:33.390 --> 00:09:37.150 stuff. We're here to create a brand and position the brand and Absolutely. Brand 150 00:09:37.150 --> 00:09:40.450 values. And that will help sell stuff, I think. 151 00:09:40.935 --> 00:09:44.795 I I actually did a a talk last week to some marketing students, and I 152 00:09:45.015 --> 00:09:48.235 I I did I did ask them, you know, what was their take on marketing. 153 00:09:48.295 --> 00:09:52.135 So we're very forthcoming, to be honest. But, yes, I do love working with my 154 00:09:52.135 --> 00:09:55.840 marketing colleagues. And and, again, with complimentary skills, which is really 155 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.220 important as well. So when you are developing that overall, you know, 156 00:10:00.160 --> 00:10:03.920 communications plan, if you like, there will be a marketing element to it. There will 157 00:10:03.920 --> 00:10:07.140 be a PR element to it. So the two go really well hand in hand. 158 00:10:08.125 --> 00:10:12.125 At large extent, PRs are a bit harder to to nail 159 00:10:12.125 --> 00:10:16.045 down and look at ROI, isn't it? You are 160 00:10:16.045 --> 00:10:19.805 just literally throwing information out there. You're you're issuing press releases. You're 161 00:10:19.805 --> 00:10:22.865 issuing position papers and statements. 162 00:10:24.070 --> 00:10:28.070 Journalists, you got cat stuck up tree is not worthy of printing it 163 00:10:28.070 --> 00:10:31.910 in news. It's gotta be shock horror. You're always going for something that in 164 00:10:31.990 --> 00:10:35.910 it's a headline. It's challenging, isn't it? Because 165 00:10:35.910 --> 00:10:38.570 PR doesn't work. It's just all it's gotta be different. 166 00:10:39.675 --> 00:10:43.355 Absolutely. But, again, PR is so much more than just that 167 00:10:43.355 --> 00:10:47.115 media aspect to it. But, I mean, I I do love the the media 168 00:10:47.115 --> 00:10:50.875 work. I deliver a lot of, you know, how to write a press release training. 169 00:10:50.875 --> 00:10:54.610 So we're always talking about what is the news story that we're trying to 170 00:10:54.610 --> 00:10:58.450 get out there. Like you said, you know, is it just another cat stuck up 171 00:10:58.450 --> 00:11:02.370 a tree? Now maybe it's it's an escaped lynx up a tree. That would make 172 00:11:02.370 --> 00:11:05.810 a really good story. So it's just understanding, you know, what what what's the human 173 00:11:05.810 --> 00:11:08.735 interest You know, is it topical and timely? Like, we had that massive storm a 174 00:11:08.735 --> 00:11:12.035 couple of weeks ago. So many stories in circulation about that. 175 00:11:12.735 --> 00:11:16.255 Just making sure it's it's, yeah, of value to the media 176 00:11:16.255 --> 00:11:19.990 outlets listeners as well as trying to get it in front of of 177 00:11:19.990 --> 00:11:23.529 your audience as well. But, yeah, media work is brilliant. Love it. 178 00:11:24.390 --> 00:11:28.070 You're you're trying to come at it from a wrong. You're trying to fetch human 179 00:11:28.070 --> 00:11:30.329 interest out of out of whatever you're saying, 180 00:11:31.910 --> 00:11:35.745 to to engage me in some way positively or 181 00:11:35.745 --> 00:11:37.845 negatively, if if you're looking for that. 182 00:11:39.985 --> 00:11:43.425 You're you're trying to get me to you get me to pay attention to something 183 00:11:43.425 --> 00:11:46.930 is kind of the the mission, is it? Absolutely. 184 00:11:47.550 --> 00:11:51.250 So if if we focus just on press releases, so the 185 00:11:51.550 --> 00:11:55.550 the the Trist test as I call it, is is your story topical and 186 00:11:55.550 --> 00:11:59.069 timely? You know, is it really relevant to the journalist, to the 187 00:11:59.069 --> 00:12:02.045 newspaper, as as well as to your audience? You know, just because you think it's 188 00:12:02.045 --> 00:12:05.425 good, doesn't make it newsworthy. Is it unique? 189 00:12:06.285 --> 00:12:10.045 If you know yourself from scanning the headlines, you know, it it's new 190 00:12:10.045 --> 00:12:13.885 things that that really get the headlines that, get the stories. And 191 00:12:13.885 --> 00:12:17.640 then also, is it, is there a human interest to it as 192 00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:21.340 well? It's always, you know, triumph of a tragedy. 193 00:12:21.560 --> 00:12:25.560 Do you know who has been affected by this? So you might have, an 194 00:12:25.560 --> 00:12:29.320 initiative that's going to help 10,000 people secure a new 195 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:32.735 medical treatment. May not that's just brilliant. Or you might have 196 00:12:33.035 --> 00:12:36.875 something, you've received an investment of x tens of thousand 197 00:12:36.875 --> 00:12:40.575 millions of pounds to produce a new product that's going to 198 00:12:40.875 --> 00:12:44.635 save whatever it is. Those are all things then that will feed into your story. 199 00:12:44.635 --> 00:12:48.510 So so, yes, when it comes to the media, it's about making sure your 200 00:12:48.810 --> 00:12:52.810 story is newsworthy and then understanding where you're going to place it. So a 201 00:12:52.810 --> 00:12:56.650 BBC approach is very, very different to a local newspaper approach, which is very different 202 00:12:56.650 --> 00:13:00.010 than to a podcast approach. But the principles then are still the same. Have you 203 00:13:00.010 --> 00:13:03.535 got something of benefit to that outlet and their target audience? 204 00:13:05.195 --> 00:13:08.795 So we're living in a world where diversity, equity, 205 00:13:08.795 --> 00:13:12.795 inclusion, DEI, it's going through a bout of bad PR, isn't 206 00:13:12.795 --> 00:13:16.790 it? It's become a very toxic term. And I I'd almost say that 207 00:13:16.790 --> 00:13:20.630 the the right wing anti woke brigade have kind of 208 00:13:20.630 --> 00:13:24.470 stolen a bit of a march on on DEI and 209 00:13:24.470 --> 00:13:28.245 toxifies that as a brand. And that's 210 00:13:28.245 --> 00:13:31.705 probably happened over the last couple of years more rapidly, 211 00:13:32.965 --> 00:13:35.685 the last two or three months is from what I've seen in the in the 212 00:13:35.685 --> 00:13:38.965 press and the papers. How do they how do they how do they manage to 213 00:13:38.965 --> 00:13:42.850 do that so softly or so overtly? It'd be like Do you know they're they're 214 00:13:42.850 --> 00:13:46.529 happy to make statements that are incorrect? They're happy to make 215 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:50.449 statements that they know are going to offend people. So maybe just maybe 216 00:13:50.449 --> 00:13:53.970 on the lower left hand side, shall we say people are maybe more repicent to 217 00:13:53.970 --> 00:13:57.935 offend? Because because we know, you know, what happens if you get language wrong 218 00:13:57.935 --> 00:14:01.375 and how how upset people will be over that. You know, we know the potential 219 00:14:01.375 --> 00:14:05.215 implications if if if we inadvertently do something that 220 00:14:05.215 --> 00:14:08.670 isn't gonna land well. So so maybe there's a bit of overthinking there. But from 221 00:14:08.670 --> 00:14:11.790 what I can see, like you said, from the news agenda at the minute is, 222 00:14:12.029 --> 00:14:15.790 it's just it's free for all, and people 223 00:14:15.790 --> 00:14:19.710 are saying what they want, which is just not necessarily true. 224 00:14:19.710 --> 00:14:22.589 And then we're losing all the the the fact checkers as well off social media 225 00:14:22.589 --> 00:14:26.545 platforms, which is quite frightening in itself. Because then where do where do I 226 00:14:26.545 --> 00:14:30.384 go to get facts verified? Where do my children go who who aren't as 227 00:14:30.384 --> 00:14:33.505 new savvy? You know, if they're reading stuff on socials, they're not on socials yet, 228 00:14:33.505 --> 00:14:37.425 but they will be soon. But how do we help young people even understand the 229 00:14:37.425 --> 00:14:40.950 difference between this is factually correct and this is just a load of 230 00:14:40.950 --> 00:14:44.650 nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. But it's how do you you argue 231 00:14:45.990 --> 00:14:49.910 back against this, if you like, negative PR onslaught? Because as you 232 00:14:49.910 --> 00:14:52.490 say, people just say what they want without any 233 00:14:53.815 --> 00:14:57.735 punches almost, just just putting this out there. So if you're if you're hearing 234 00:14:57.735 --> 00:15:01.675 negative PR against you or about your organization, about what you believe in, 235 00:15:03.574 --> 00:15:07.495 direct confrontation, is is that is that the tactic or putting 236 00:15:07.495 --> 00:15:11.350 out a myth busting? Or How would you suggest? It's really, really 237 00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:14.870 difficult. I mean, let let's let's be realistic about it. There there's an 238 00:15:14.870 --> 00:15:18.790 argument that if you are then to say, oh, so and so said 239 00:15:18.790 --> 00:15:22.595 x, y, and zed, and here's why that's incorrect, You're actually giving 240 00:15:22.595 --> 00:15:26.355 credibility to what they have said that's incorrect because you're repeating 241 00:15:26.355 --> 00:15:29.815 it. So you need to think really carefully in and around that. 242 00:15:30.274 --> 00:15:34.214 My own approach should be not to pick, a public fight, particularly, 243 00:15:34.274 --> 00:15:38.160 like, over Twitter or x. Do people even still use that? I am off it. 244 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:41.860 But, again, it's understanding where's the benefit of getting into a public dispute 245 00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:45.600 versus is it, you know, defamatory, libelous, in which case that's gonna be a court 246 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:49.505 case. But it's just knowing what your options are. But in terms of that myth 247 00:15:49.505 --> 00:15:53.345 busting, yes, there there's a need to start, I think, to look 248 00:15:53.345 --> 00:15:57.345 really carefully at what the messaging actually is and 249 00:15:57.345 --> 00:16:01.105 who we're trying to target and how that message is getting out there as well. 250 00:16:01.105 --> 00:16:04.830 So it's maybe not a direct confrontation, but it's it's certainly upping the game 251 00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:08.750 in terms of getting those messages out there. Maybe it is through TikTok. Maybe 252 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:12.590 it is through another social channel, but I really just being as bold, 253 00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:16.510 shall we say, as as the other side, and just really starting to take 254 00:16:16.510 --> 00:16:20.145 action then to to get the messaging right. There are some organizations 255 00:16:20.285 --> 00:16:23.645 out there who do do fact checking as we know and myth busting. I mean, 256 00:16:23.645 --> 00:16:27.425 Lynn is an agency based in Cardiff, actually. They work globally 257 00:16:27.725 --> 00:16:31.185 to try and counter some of those myths, and disinformation, 258 00:16:31.565 --> 00:16:35.329 particularly around you. They they work through COVID. They've done some on 259 00:16:35.329 --> 00:16:39.250 climate change, as well. So there there are good people out there trying to do 260 00:16:39.250 --> 00:16:43.170 this, but for an individual organization, you need to weigh up the 261 00:16:43.170 --> 00:16:46.130 pros and cons. You know, how is it gonna impact on your reputation? If you 262 00:16:46.130 --> 00:16:49.514 do take this particular stand, How will it impact on your reputation if you take 263 00:16:49.514 --> 00:16:53.514 that particular stand? And just working through the pros and cons of each and 264 00:16:53.514 --> 00:16:57.274 getting that balance and then having a way of doing it that that you 265 00:16:57.274 --> 00:17:00.314 can sleep well at night knowing that you have done your best to stand up 266 00:17:00.314 --> 00:17:03.274 for what you believe in. What I'm here what I'm here, I think, saying there 267 00:17:03.274 --> 00:17:07.170 is tell your own story. Don't necessarily engage in 268 00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:11.170 somebody else's story. Keep being the best version of you, your 269 00:17:11.170 --> 00:17:15.089 organization you can be, and not and not 270 00:17:15.089 --> 00:17:19.014 try and challenge each individual statement because all you'll end 271 00:17:19.014 --> 00:17:22.875 up doing is get caught up in denials and counter denials 272 00:17:23.654 --> 00:17:27.014 and giving them the ammunition to come back on you with it yet another wild 273 00:17:27.014 --> 00:17:30.794 statement, I guess. And it's exhausting if you start that. And 274 00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:34.660 what you've just described as as being authentic, it's it's being yourself. You know, this 275 00:17:34.660 --> 00:17:37.940 is who I am and having that confidence to you. And that can be really 276 00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:40.740 difficult as well, just to start to say, no, this is what I believe, and 277 00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:44.180 this is what I stand for. So again, it's it's how do you do it 278 00:17:44.180 --> 00:17:48.055 so that you know that you can make a difference in 279 00:17:48.055 --> 00:17:51.975 the world, that you can bring your colleagues with you. How can you build that 280 00:17:51.975 --> 00:17:55.815 movement? How can you mobilize people to come onto your site as well? But, yeah, 281 00:17:55.815 --> 00:17:59.710 you do you and do it really, really well. And then again, because 282 00:17:59.710 --> 00:18:03.710 you're being yourself and because there's no gray areas, then then it's really hard to 283 00:18:03.710 --> 00:18:07.549 start to, you know, not attack the person up. That's not right the free phrasing, 284 00:18:07.549 --> 00:18:10.830 but it's it's really hard then to start to pick holes in what it is 285 00:18:10.830 --> 00:18:14.524 they're saying if it's, you know, if it's evidence based, if it's factually correct. What 286 00:18:14.524 --> 00:18:18.125 worries me at the moment is that there is no filter, and some of 287 00:18:18.125 --> 00:18:21.885 these statements are being green lighted by the 288 00:18:21.885 --> 00:18:24.465 mainstream media politicians. 289 00:18:25.645 --> 00:18:29.419 And it's really hard sometimes to actually get the 290 00:18:29.419 --> 00:18:32.559 facts and the truth out of these. You know, if you're if you're sat there 291 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:36.240 as a a person in the street looking up this, 292 00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:39.899 there's a lot of lot of stuff going on at the moment, which is, you 293 00:18:39.899 --> 00:18:43.275 know, whether we talk about vaccines, climate change, 294 00:18:44.135 --> 00:18:47.915 gender, all these kind of things, all all in the news at the moment 295 00:18:48.215 --> 00:18:51.895 have become polarizing people, reach the extremes. Yeah. So, 296 00:18:51.895 --> 00:18:55.889 again, it's understanding who's your target audience. Who do you want to 297 00:18:55.889 --> 00:18:59.730 speak to about these things? So rather than picking a fight in the media, I 298 00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:03.649 said, I love campaigning. I love the public affairs side of things. So so maybe 299 00:19:03.649 --> 00:19:07.010 as a business or an organization, you're doing some really good work and you should 300 00:19:07.010 --> 00:19:10.015 be engaging with your local politician no matter where they are in The UK or 301 00:19:10.015 --> 00:19:13.935 even across the world. You know? So if, you know, say there was a debate 302 00:19:13.935 --> 00:19:17.935 coming up in Westminster on gender or violence against 303 00:19:17.935 --> 00:19:21.775 women or whatever, you know, area of interest that, that your 304 00:19:21.775 --> 00:19:25.640 organization has, I would be encouraging you to, to write a briefing, 305 00:19:25.780 --> 00:19:28.980 to be engaging with your local MP, to be engaging with the people who are 306 00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:32.980 gonna be speaking to this motion and informing them of the actual facts of the 307 00:19:32.980 --> 00:19:36.635 matter. And then that, that will help them because I would suggest the 308 00:19:36.635 --> 00:19:39.674 majority of politicians, they don't want to stand up and say the wrong thing. They 309 00:19:39.674 --> 00:19:43.515 don't want to be then slated in the media the next day by citing facts 310 00:19:43.515 --> 00:19:46.955 and figures that are incorrect because it does it does you know, that's still a 311 00:19:46.955 --> 00:19:50.710 possibility. So, again, you can take action that way. So it's 312 00:19:50.710 --> 00:19:53.750 it's it's not into the media. It is direct into the people who will be 313 00:19:53.750 --> 00:19:57.030 speaking about an issue that that affects what it is that you do. So that's 314 00:19:57.030 --> 00:20:00.650 that's part of lobbying. So what you're doing is you're giving a position paper, 315 00:20:01.375 --> 00:20:04.275 statement of facts, evidence, citations 316 00:20:05.455 --> 00:20:09.215 directly to a politician or to an organization. Say, this is our 317 00:20:09.215 --> 00:20:12.975 truth. We want you to process this and form an 318 00:20:12.975 --> 00:20:16.870 opinion from it. Yep. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's that's what the 319 00:20:16.870 --> 00:20:20.790 people doing the negatively are doing, isn't it? They're creating the same the same information. 320 00:20:20.790 --> 00:20:24.550 So it's it's counteracting it with your story, not arguing someone else's 321 00:20:24.550 --> 00:20:28.550 story. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I find that politicians, they want to be 322 00:20:28.550 --> 00:20:32.355 well informed. They they generally want to engage with, you know, charities, 323 00:20:32.414 --> 00:20:36.335 community groups, you know, people, you know, in in whatever sphere 324 00:20:36.335 --> 00:20:39.554 they happen to be. I have an example in some of 325 00:20:40.735 --> 00:20:44.015 the public affairs training that I do do, and it's about this the amount of 326 00:20:44.015 --> 00:20:47.980 spend that, oil companies, spend on lobbying 327 00:20:47.980 --> 00:20:51.500 on climate change. I mean, it's tens of millions of dollars. So, again, like you 328 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:55.420 just said, the other side is lobbying away. So there's 329 00:20:55.420 --> 00:20:59.360 nothing to stop us from doing that as well. You know, we're voters. We're citizens. 330 00:20:59.660 --> 00:21:03.475 MPs work for you. So, again, get in there and start to help 331 00:21:03.615 --> 00:21:07.615 them understand the challenges that that you're facing and you don't be needing those 332 00:21:07.615 --> 00:21:11.375 tens of millions of dollars either. You can go direct to them through their 333 00:21:11.375 --> 00:21:15.169 constituency, through their Westminster offices. It's all open access, 334 00:21:15.630 --> 00:21:18.990 and just go for it. Write them a letter, send them a letter. That's the 335 00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:22.830 one. Invite them out to your to your community group, you know, invite them into 336 00:21:22.830 --> 00:21:26.029 your premises, sit down and have a cup of tea and a chat about what 337 00:21:26.029 --> 00:21:29.765 the challenges are and just help move the conversation forward. Oh, 338 00:21:29.765 --> 00:21:32.905 yes. It's all about what I say. The facts don't change people. 339 00:21:33.765 --> 00:21:37.285 So it's trying to cross that bridge between the 340 00:21:37.285 --> 00:21:40.745 emotion and the logic, isn't it? And that's that's the challenge we have. 341 00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:44.750 Because if if the facts change me, I I wouldn't drive too fast. I wouldn't 342 00:21:44.750 --> 00:21:48.590 eat red meat. I'd be go for a run every day. I'd be healthy. But 343 00:21:48.590 --> 00:21:52.370 the reality is I haven't got the emotional connection with some of those things. 344 00:21:52.590 --> 00:21:56.105 That's how does PR bridge that 345 00:21:56.105 --> 00:22:00.024 emotion versus logic gap? That comes back to how you tell your 346 00:22:00.024 --> 00:22:03.865 story, your your storyteller. So, yeah, like you said, if 347 00:22:03.865 --> 00:22:07.784 I send you, you know, a two page briefing document, if you've written all the 348 00:22:07.784 --> 00:22:11.670 bullet points about the issues, yeah. I'll, I'll skim read it. I might pick 349 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:15.670 up the headline and that'll be it. But if I sit down with somebody or 350 00:22:15.670 --> 00:22:18.710 if I was to brief a spokesperson to go in and have a conversation with 351 00:22:18.710 --> 00:22:22.630 a journalist, with a politician, whoever it happens to be, and have them tell 352 00:22:22.630 --> 00:22:26.385 their story, then then that's gonna have a much bigger impact. So say you're 353 00:22:26.385 --> 00:22:30.305 working on an issue in connection with, young carers, which is 354 00:22:30.305 --> 00:22:33.825 an an issue I've I've worked on previously. You know, you need to get the 355 00:22:33.825 --> 00:22:37.679 young people telling their story about the impacts that caring for 356 00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:41.360 their their family member has on them. And that is so much more powerful than 357 00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:45.200 than you or I telling their story on on their behalf. Yeah. I think we're 358 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.960 seeing a lot of stuff in the media at the moment around toxic behavior in 359 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.860 the workplace. Obviously, we had a big 360 00:22:53.085 --> 00:22:57.085 push. Sara Everard, Me Too movement. These kind of but 361 00:22:57.085 --> 00:23:00.545 we're seeing some more recent, displays 362 00:23:01.165 --> 00:23:04.705 of toxicity coming out. How do people 363 00:23:05.830 --> 00:23:09.370 know they're not alone? How how can we how can we get people to 364 00:23:10.070 --> 00:23:13.190 trust that they will be heard? Because that's that's part of the problem as well, 365 00:23:13.190 --> 00:23:16.710 isn't it? Trust. Absolutely. And, 366 00:23:16.710 --> 00:23:20.565 again, knowing that other people are going through what you have gone through, 367 00:23:20.644 --> 00:23:23.605 I think is really important. So the first step for me and I I have 368 00:23:23.605 --> 00:23:27.365 faced some very toxic, workplace environments. And the first step for me is always 369 00:23:27.365 --> 00:23:31.044 telling somebody. So it might be a trusted colleague or it might be 370 00:23:31.044 --> 00:23:34.990 somebody completely unconnected with work. Could be a WhatsApp, could be, 371 00:23:35.230 --> 00:23:37.790 you know, whatever it hap a cup of tea in a chat, whatever it happens 372 00:23:37.790 --> 00:23:41.630 to be. But once you speak it into existence, I 373 00:23:41.630 --> 00:23:45.630 guarantee you'll find out that somebody else is going through something similar. And it's by 374 00:23:45.630 --> 00:23:48.930 talking it through, then you can start to understand what your potential options 375 00:23:49.505 --> 00:23:53.445 might be. I think that the me too movement is, 376 00:23:53.745 --> 00:23:57.745 you know, particularly interesting because every single day there is yet another story. 377 00:23:57.745 --> 00:24:01.665 There is yet another article out there of something that has 378 00:24:01.665 --> 00:24:05.559 clearly gone wrong somewhere that I I use the phrase hiding in plain sight 379 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:09.480 quite a lot. You know, the perpetrators are hiding in plain sight. So again, the 380 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:13.240 more we talk about it, the more we can share experiences and the more that 381 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:17.240 we can mobilize and and come together to tackle whatever the issue happens to 382 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.955 be. In the paper again is, a a 383 00:24:20.955 --> 00:24:24.555 previously senior royal family member who, for whatever 384 00:24:24.555 --> 00:24:28.475 reason, seems to keep having a 385 00:24:28.475 --> 00:24:31.295 negative story about them in relation to 386 00:24:32.070 --> 00:24:35.610 past acquaintances, people who are proved to be, 387 00:24:37.190 --> 00:24:40.730 mind my words here, involved with sexual 388 00:24:40.950 --> 00:24:44.950 offenses potentially in the past. So is there a danger sometimes 389 00:24:44.950 --> 00:24:48.644 that we we think we can put a 390 00:24:48.644 --> 00:24:52.245 veneer over the story and hope that people are gonna wash with 391 00:24:52.245 --> 00:24:55.764 it? But the reality is if if you don't go deep enough and cut hard 392 00:24:55.764 --> 00:24:59.684 enough and and expose yourself deep enough the first time, it could 393 00:24:59.684 --> 00:25:02.730 be death by a thousand cuts. People are gonna come back on you. They're gonna 394 00:25:02.730 --> 00:25:06.210 keep digging and digging and digging and until they really get to the bone. And 395 00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:09.930 I think that's what we're seeing with this particular individual at the moment. 396 00:25:09.930 --> 00:25:13.470 It's, they weren't authentic. Even if you don't like that word. 397 00:25:13.770 --> 00:25:17.215 Maybe they were. Yeah. They were lying. Maybe 398 00:25:17.755 --> 00:25:21.115 well, maybe that's a strong word. Yeah. They they weren't telling the whole truth. Let's 399 00:25:21.115 --> 00:25:24.715 put it that way. Oh, they're telling their version of it. Yeah. I mean, for 400 00:25:24.715 --> 00:25:28.470 a journalist, that's the story that keeps on giving. But but I think, 401 00:25:28.790 --> 00:25:32.390