Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 157 with the title,
Joanne Lockwood: Raising Voices, Shaping Change. And I have
Joanne Lockwood: the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sarah McCracken.
Joanne Lockwood: Sarah is an award winning PR and communication specialist,
Joanne Lockwood: empowering women and diverse voices to raise their profiles and
Joanne Lockwood: create meaningful change. And when I asked Sarah to describe her
Joanne Lockwood: superpower, she said she said that it is helping others
Joanne Lockwood: find confidence in their visibility and voice.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you
Sarah McCracken: so much for having me this afternoon. Oh, it's absolute
Joanne Lockwood: pleasure. And, for the accent, I'm guessing you're for
Joanne Lockwood: the Emerald Isle somewhere in there. Yes. Indeed. I
Sarah McCracken: am in County Down, Northern Ireland, and we're about maybe 25
Sarah McCracken: miles south of Belfast. So nice nice and handy. And, you know, if I'm going
Sarah McCracken: further south, we're maybe about an hour and twenty minutes from Dublin, so I really
Sarah McCracken: have the best of those worlds here. Beautiful. My wife and I
Joanne Lockwood: went on a a holiday to Dublin in the summer, and we drove north to
Joanne Lockwood: the because they don't have national trust in Dub in in Southern Ireland, in The
Joanne Lockwood: Republic Of Ireland. So we had to drive across the border to Northern Ireland to
Joanne Lockwood: find a national trust property, which we visited. It was quite high. A a trek
Joanne Lockwood: from County Cowan, but, yeah, we were determined to find a national trust property to
Joanne Lockwood: visit and, yeah, had a good time. And I've been to Belfast a few
Joanne Lockwood: times, and I've got happy memories of going to Newfernard,
Joanne Lockwood: which can't be far from here. You're never far from anywhere
Sarah McCracken: here, to be honest. But, yes, next time you're over then, we'll have to meet
Sarah McCracken: up and get a week of tea. Yeah. That sounds great. Sounds great. If you're
Joanne Lockwood: listening to this and you're wondering why my voice sounds a little different to usual,
Joanne Lockwood: I think I've got a bit of a throat thing going on. So every so
Joanne Lockwood: often, my voice cuts out. So please bear with sure. I'll be fine.
Joanne Lockwood: As a I've got strep cells. I've got herbal tea in front of me,
Joanne Lockwood: so I'm sure we cope. So Sarah
Joanne Lockwood: Sarah, what makes you tick? You know, why do you do what you do? You
Joanne Lockwood: know, you're in in PR, but why does visibility,
Joanne Lockwood: diversity, inclusion resonate with you so
Joanne Lockwood: much? But but the more I did, the more I headed towards, like,
Sarah McCracken: the PR and marketing side of things, and I just absolutely love it. I
Sarah McCracken: get such a buzz out of, you know, seeing things in the media, prepping
Sarah McCracken: spokespeople, seeing you know, prepping people to go on podcast, but it whatever it
Sarah McCracken: happens to be. Just the more I worked within sort of the
Sarah McCracken: communication sector, you know, the more I was able to to
Sarah McCracken: create that change. So I've worked in the health care
Sarah McCracken: sector, the environment sector. I worked for a political party. Once upon
Sarah McCracken: a time, I worked in education as well as working for businesses and
Sarah McCracken: entrepreneurs. The more I worked in that, the more I could see how communications
Sarah McCracken: could create change, particularly around campaigning.
Sarah McCracken: So, I mean, many years ago, you could smoke in public workplaces, in Northern
Sarah McCracken: Ireland, obviously, right across The UK. And in
Sarah McCracken: 02/2006, the charity I worked with at the time was involved in the smoke free
Sarah McCracken: Northern Ireland coalition and that campaign to bring in legislation to ban smoking in
Sarah McCracken: public places. And that was kind of my first kind of we can do this
Sarah McCracken: kind of moment, you know, when you're there at a speech and the secretary of
Sarah McCracken: state is making these announcements, and you've got your your clients from from the charity
Sarah McCracken: with you. You and the stakeholders of people are gonna be really impacted for the
Sarah McCracken: better as a result of this, and it was just brilliant to be part of
Sarah McCracken: that. So, yeah, since then, I've worked on other campaigns most recently
Sarah McCracken: working on the campaign to bring in climate change legislation in Northern Ireland, which
Sarah McCracken: was brought in now full of years ago, and my team at the charity I
Sarah McCracken: worked with at the time worked really hard on that as well. Oh, sounds really
Joanne Lockwood: interesting. I love the idea of alpaca farm. Some
Joanne Lockwood: reason, my my daughter keeps a couple years ago,
Joanne Lockwood: she she bought me a a present, which was taking the alpacas for a
Joanne Lockwood: walk, and I've I've got a little alpacas to see over there. But,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it's, is that an alpaca jumper you're wearing at
Joanne Lockwood: the moment? We we'd go to shows and, you know, we'd have them on the
Sarah McCracken: stand, and I'd be talking to people like yourself who just love alpacas.
Sarah McCracken: Never took one for a walk, so I'm not sure that would have ended terribly
Sarah McCracken: well, but they are very docile. Because this is getting on to a whole other
Sarah McCracken: podcast episode here, but they're they're very amenable. They're very docile. They do make good
Sarah McCracken: pets. They're probably easier to manage than sheep. So they're you know, people do
Sarah McCracken: absolutely love them. Yeah. You're right. We've got a bit off topic
Joanne Lockwood: there. They've versed in all packets. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So PR. I mean, I'm I'm a great believer that
Joanne Lockwood: organizations need authenticity in
Joanne Lockwood: their in their brand, their values, their messaging. And a lot, I
Joanne Lockwood: I guess, is is PR trying to align
Joanne Lockwood: internal who do we think we are versus the external public.
Joanne Lockwood: Who do they think we are and trying to get that alignment of messaging, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? That that's not always easy. No. No. It's not. And, you know, when
Sarah McCracken: I'm doing PR training, I'm always sort
Sarah McCracken: of tell telling people or working with them to understand
Sarah McCracken: that, you know, if you have a really shoddy reputation, no amount of PR
Sarah McCracken: is gonna help that. You will get found out. So it is, like you said,
Sarah McCracken: about aligning what are your business goals with what you
Sarah McCracken: want to project in the public domain and making sure that those are aligned. But,
Sarah McCracken: you know, n is n is n is n dodgy, n is n underhand. You're
Sarah McCracken: you're gonna get caught out. I I do have an issue with the word spin.
Sarah McCracken: Do you know that that that doesn't help when people refer to PR people as
Sarah McCracken: you spin doctors, particularly in the in the political sphere. But, it is about working
Sarah McCracken: really hard just to find out what it is. What is that change you're trying
Sarah McCracken: to make in the world and breaking that down and working out what communications? Who
Sarah McCracken: can you engage with? What is it you want to say, and how might you
Sarah McCracken: say it to your target audience just to to create that change or raise that
Sarah McCracken: profile or increase that visibility? The spin that you're referring to there, I suppose,
Joanne Lockwood: is is is crafting a message in a positive light, I suppose, is the,
Joanne Lockwood: the translation of the word spinner. It could be, but, again,
Sarah McCracken: you've referred to that authenticity. Again, I struggle with the word authentic because it sounds
Sarah McCracken: like you're trying too hard. So for me, you know, if I'm working, if I'm
Sarah McCracken: coaching with individuals, it's about how to be yourself and just bring
Sarah McCracken: forward all the really the good things about what you do and what you say
Sarah McCracken: and just trying trying to emphasize that rather than be something that
Sarah McCracken: you're not because because that could be really difficult as well. But, yes, be being
Sarah McCracken: authentic is key. Being yourself, I do love a bit of LinkedIn content, I have
Sarah McCracken: to say, and I I will equally post about PR today, and I will
Sarah McCracken: post about my chickens tomorrow because because because that's that's who I happen to be.
Sarah McCracken: I must do an alpaca post actually, overdue one of those. Walking with alpacas.
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's the title of a book. I was like, yeah. I have to
Joanne Lockwood: author that one. So when you're when you're working with organizations,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, we're trying to avoid the word spin. We're trying to avoid the words
Joanne Lockwood: authenticity or authentic. Where do organizations go
Joanne Lockwood: wrong? I mean, I think we've implied that, sometimes what happens
Joanne Lockwood: is they try and pretend to be what they're not.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you encourage them to to move past that and be honest or
Joanne Lockwood: or actually change, or actually change their output?
Sarah McCracken: Yeah. I I think the first step for me is about recognizing what PR actually
Sarah McCracken: is. PR is about managing your reputation. It is about engaging
Sarah McCracken: with your stakeholders so that is speaking with them as well as listening to what
Sarah McCracken: they have to say. So it it sits alongside your marketing and
Sarah McCracken: advertising mix. So marketing is clearly about selling stuff as as is
Sarah McCracken: advertising. So it is different to that. But in terms of, you know,
Sarah McCracken: working with the businesses, it's about just trying to identify what is it is they're
Sarah McCracken: trying to achieve and how can communications help that. So we've got all the
Sarah McCracken: marketing going on, and you've got the adverts and the Facebook stuff.
Sarah McCracken: But equally, who do you need to be listening to? What kind of messages
Sarah McCracken: do you want to create about your your product business or service that you need
Sarah McCracken: to be speaking to your audience about? And it could be be trying to work
Sarah McCracken: with a politician to bring about legislative change, or it could be
Sarah McCracken: about working with an individual who just wants to, you know, get that
Sarah McCracken: confidence to raise their profile and visibility and just the principles are the
Sarah McCracken: same. You know, what's the outcome you want to achieve and then working through how
Sarah McCracken: we might achieve that. You said you said that marketing's all about selling stuff I
Joanne Lockwood: can hear. Yeah. Every marketing person out, they go, no. We're more just selling
Joanne Lockwood: stuff. We're here to create a brand and position the brand and Absolutely. Brand
Joanne Lockwood: values. And that will help sell stuff, I think.
Sarah McCracken: I I actually did a a talk last week to some marketing students, and I
Sarah McCracken: I I did I did ask them, you know, what was their take on marketing.
Sarah McCracken: So we're very forthcoming, to be honest. But, yes, I do love working with my
Sarah McCracken: marketing colleagues. And and, again, with complimentary skills, which is really
Sarah McCracken: important as well. So when you are developing that overall, you know,
Sarah McCracken: communications plan, if you like, there will be a marketing element to it. There will
Sarah McCracken: be a PR element to it. So the two go really well hand in hand.
Joanne Lockwood: At large extent, PRs are a bit harder to to nail
Joanne Lockwood: down and look at ROI, isn't it? You are
Joanne Lockwood: just literally throwing information out there. You're you're issuing press releases. You're
Joanne Lockwood: issuing position papers and statements.
Joanne Lockwood: Journalists, you got cat stuck up tree is not worthy of printing it
Joanne Lockwood: in news. It's gotta be shock horror. You're always going for something that in
Joanne Lockwood: it's a headline. It's challenging, isn't it? Because
Joanne Lockwood: PR doesn't work. It's just all it's gotta be different.
Sarah McCracken: Absolutely. But, again, PR is so much more than just that
Sarah McCracken: media aspect to it. But, I mean, I I do love the the media
Sarah McCracken: work. I deliver a lot of, you know, how to write a press release training.
Sarah McCracken: So we're always talking about what is the news story that we're trying to
Sarah McCracken: get out there. Like you said, you know, is it just another cat stuck up
Sarah McCracken: a tree? Now maybe it's it's an escaped lynx up a tree. That would make
Sarah McCracken: a really good story. So it's just understanding, you know, what what what's the human
Sarah McCracken: interest You know, is it topical and timely? Like, we had that massive storm a
Sarah McCracken: couple of weeks ago. So many stories in circulation about that.
Sarah McCracken: Just making sure it's it's, yeah, of value to the media
Sarah McCracken: outlets listeners as well as trying to get it in front of of
Sarah McCracken: your audience as well. But, yeah, media work is brilliant. Love it.
Joanne Lockwood: You're you're trying to come at it from a wrong. You're trying to fetch human
Joanne Lockwood: interest out of out of whatever you're saying,
Joanne Lockwood: to to engage me in some way positively or
Joanne Lockwood: negatively, if if you're looking for that.
Joanne Lockwood: You're you're trying to get me to you get me to pay attention to something
Joanne Lockwood: is kind of the the mission, is it? Absolutely.
Sarah McCracken: So if if we focus just on press releases, so the
Sarah McCracken: the the Trist test as I call it, is is your story topical and
Sarah McCracken: timely? You know, is it really relevant to the journalist, to the
Sarah McCracken: newspaper, as as well as to your audience? You know, just because you think it's
Sarah McCracken: good, doesn't make it newsworthy. Is it unique?
Sarah McCracken: If you know yourself from scanning the headlines, you know, it it's new
Sarah McCracken: things that that really get the headlines that, get the stories. And
Sarah McCracken: then also, is it, is there a human interest to it as
Sarah McCracken: well? It's always, you know, triumph of a tragedy.
Sarah McCracken: Do you know who has been affected by this? So you might have, an
Sarah McCracken: initiative that's going to help 10,000 people secure a new
Sarah McCracken: medical treatment. May not that's just brilliant. Or you might have
Sarah McCracken: something, you've received an investment of x tens of thousand
Sarah McCracken: millions of pounds to produce a new product that's going to
Sarah McCracken: save whatever it is. Those are all things then that will feed into your story.
Sarah McCracken: So so, yes, when it comes to the media, it's about making sure your
Sarah McCracken: story is newsworthy and then understanding where you're going to place it. So a
Sarah McCracken: BBC approach is very, very different to a local newspaper approach, which is very different
Sarah McCracken: than to a podcast approach. But the principles then are still the same. Have you
Sarah McCracken: got something of benefit to that outlet and their target audience?
Joanne Lockwood: So we're living in a world where diversity, equity,
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, DEI, it's going through a bout of bad PR, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? It's become a very toxic term. And I I'd almost say that
Joanne Lockwood: the the right wing anti woke brigade have kind of
Joanne Lockwood: stolen a bit of a march on on DEI and
Joanne Lockwood: toxifies that as a brand. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: probably happened over the last couple of years more rapidly,
Joanne Lockwood: the last two or three months is from what I've seen in the in the
Joanne Lockwood: press and the papers. How do they how do they how do they manage to
Joanne Lockwood: do that so softly or so overtly? It'd be like Do you know they're they're
Sarah McCracken: happy to make statements that are incorrect? They're happy to make
Sarah McCracken: statements that they know are going to offend people. So maybe just maybe
Sarah McCracken: on the lower left hand side, shall we say people are maybe more repicent to
Sarah McCracken: offend? Because because we know, you know, what happens if you get language wrong
Sarah McCracken: and how how upset people will be over that. You know, we know the potential
Sarah McCracken: implications if if if we inadvertently do something that
Sarah McCracken: isn't gonna land well. So so maybe there's a bit of overthinking there. But from
Sarah McCracken: what I can see, like you said, from the news agenda at the minute is,
Sarah McCracken: it's just it's free for all, and people
Sarah McCracken: are saying what they want, which is just not necessarily true.
Sarah McCracken: And then we're losing all the the the fact checkers as well off social media
Sarah McCracken: platforms, which is quite frightening in itself. Because then where do where do I
Sarah McCracken: go to get facts verified? Where do my children go who who aren't as
Sarah McCracken: new savvy? You know, if they're reading stuff on socials, they're not on socials yet,
Sarah McCracken: but they will be soon. But how do we help young people even understand the
Sarah McCracken: difference between this is factually correct and this is just a load of
Sarah McCracken: nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. But it's how do you you argue
Joanne Lockwood: back against this, if you like, negative PR onslaught? Because as you
Joanne Lockwood: say, people just say what they want without any
Joanne Lockwood: punches almost, just just putting this out there. So if you're if you're hearing
Joanne Lockwood: negative PR against you or about your organization, about what you believe in,
Joanne Lockwood: direct confrontation, is is that is that the tactic or putting
Joanne Lockwood: out a myth busting? Or How would you suggest? It's really, really
Sarah McCracken: difficult. I mean, let let's let's be realistic about it. There there's an
Sarah McCracken: argument that if you are then to say, oh, so and so said
Sarah McCracken: x, y, and zed, and here's why that's incorrect, You're actually giving
Sarah McCracken: credibility to what they have said that's incorrect because you're repeating
Sarah McCracken: it. So you need to think really carefully in and around that.
Sarah McCracken: My own approach should be not to pick, a public fight, particularly,
Sarah McCracken: like, over Twitter or x. Do people even still use that? I am off it.
Sarah McCracken: But, again, it's understanding where's the benefit of getting into a public dispute
Sarah McCracken: versus is it, you know, defamatory, libelous, in which case that's gonna be a court
Sarah McCracken: case. But it's just knowing what your options are. But in terms of that myth
Sarah McCracken: busting, yes, there there's a need to start, I think, to look
Sarah McCracken: really carefully at what the messaging actually is and
Sarah McCracken: who we're trying to target and how that message is getting out there as well.
Sarah McCracken: So it's maybe not a direct confrontation, but it's it's certainly upping the game
Sarah McCracken: in terms of getting those messages out there. Maybe it is through TikTok. Maybe
Sarah McCracken: it is through another social channel, but I really just being as bold,
Sarah McCracken: shall we say, as as the other side, and just really starting to take
Sarah McCracken: action then to to get the messaging right. There are some organizations
Sarah McCracken: out there who do do fact checking as we know and myth busting. I mean,
Sarah McCracken: Lynn is an agency based in Cardiff, actually. They work globally
Sarah McCracken: to try and counter some of those myths, and disinformation,
Sarah McCracken: particularly around you. They they work through COVID. They've done some on
Sarah McCracken: climate change, as well. So there there are good people out there trying to do
Sarah McCracken: this, but for an individual organization, you need to weigh up the
Sarah McCracken: pros and cons. You know, how is it gonna impact on your reputation? If you
Sarah McCracken: do take this particular stand, How will it impact on your reputation if you take
Sarah McCracken: that particular stand? And just working through the pros and cons of each and
Sarah McCracken: getting that balance and then having a way of doing it that that you
Sarah McCracken: can sleep well at night knowing that you have done your best to stand up
Sarah McCracken: for what you believe in. What I'm here what I'm here, I think, saying there
Joanne Lockwood: is tell your own story. Don't necessarily engage in
Joanne Lockwood: somebody else's story. Keep being the best version of you, your
Joanne Lockwood: organization you can be, and not and not
Joanne Lockwood: try and challenge each individual statement because all you'll end
Joanne Lockwood: up doing is get caught up in denials and counter denials
Joanne Lockwood: and giving them the ammunition to come back on you with it yet another wild
Joanne Lockwood: statement, I guess. And it's exhausting if you start that. And
Sarah McCracken: what you've just described as as being authentic, it's it's being yourself. You know, this
Sarah McCracken: is who I am and having that confidence to you. And that can be really
Sarah McCracken: difficult as well, just to start to say, no, this is what I believe, and
Sarah McCracken: this is what I stand for. So again, it's it's how do you do it
Sarah McCracken: so that you know that you can make a difference in
Sarah McCracken: the world, that you can bring your colleagues with you. How can you build that
Sarah McCracken: movement? How can you mobilize people to come onto your site as well? But, yeah,
Sarah McCracken: you do you and do it really, really well. And then again, because
Sarah McCracken: you're being yourself and because there's no gray areas, then then it's really hard to
Sarah McCracken: start to, you know, not attack the person up. That's not right the free phrasing,
Sarah McCracken: but it's it's really hard then to start to pick holes in what it is
Sarah McCracken: they're saying if it's, you know, if it's evidence based, if it's factually correct. What
Joanne Lockwood: worries me at the moment is that there is no filter, and some of
Joanne Lockwood: these statements are being green lighted by the
Joanne Lockwood: mainstream media politicians.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's really hard sometimes to actually get the
Joanne Lockwood: facts and the truth out of these. You know, if you're if you're sat there
Joanne Lockwood: as a a person in the street looking up this,
Joanne Lockwood: there's a lot of lot of stuff going on at the moment, which is, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, whether we talk about vaccines, climate change,
Joanne Lockwood: gender, all these kind of things, all all in the news at the moment
Joanne Lockwood: have become polarizing people, reach the extremes. Yeah. So,
Sarah McCracken: again, it's understanding who's your target audience. Who do you want to
Sarah McCracken: speak to about these things? So rather than picking a fight in the media, I
Sarah McCracken: said, I love campaigning. I love the public affairs side of things. So so maybe
Sarah McCracken: as a business or an organization, you're doing some really good work and you should
Sarah McCracken: be engaging with your local politician no matter where they are in The UK or
Sarah McCracken: even across the world. You know? So if, you know, say there was a debate
Sarah McCracken: coming up in Westminster on gender or violence against
Sarah McCracken: women or whatever, you know, area of interest that, that your
Sarah McCracken: organization has, I would be encouraging you to, to write a briefing,
Sarah McCracken: to be engaging with your local MP, to be engaging with the people who are
Sarah McCracken: gonna be speaking to this motion and informing them of the actual facts of the
Sarah McCracken: matter. And then that, that will help them because I would suggest the
Sarah McCracken: majority of politicians, they don't want to stand up and say the wrong thing. They
Sarah McCracken: don't want to be then slated in the media the next day by citing facts
Sarah McCracken: and figures that are incorrect because it does it does you know, that's still a
Sarah McCracken: possibility. So, again, you can take action that way. So it's
Sarah McCracken: it's it's not into the media. It is direct into the people who will be
Sarah McCracken: speaking about an issue that that affects what it is that you do. So that's
Joanne Lockwood: that's part of lobbying. So what you're doing is you're giving a position paper,
Joanne Lockwood: statement of facts, evidence, citations
Joanne Lockwood: directly to a politician or to an organization. Say, this is our
Joanne Lockwood: truth. We want you to process this and form an
Joanne Lockwood: opinion from it. Yep. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's that's what the
Joanne Lockwood: people doing the negatively are doing, isn't it? They're creating the same the same information.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's it's counteracting it with your story, not arguing someone else's
Joanne Lockwood: story. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I find that politicians, they want to be
Sarah McCracken: well informed. They they generally want to engage with, you know, charities,
Sarah McCracken: community groups, you know, people, you know, in in whatever sphere
Sarah McCracken: they happen to be. I have an example in some of
Sarah McCracken: the public affairs training that I do do, and it's about this the amount of
Sarah McCracken: spend that, oil companies, spend on lobbying
Sarah McCracken: on climate change. I mean, it's tens of millions of dollars. So, again, like you
Sarah McCracken: just said, the other side is lobbying away. So there's
Sarah McCracken: nothing to stop us from doing that as well. You know, we're voters. We're citizens.
Sarah McCracken: MPs work for you. So, again, get in there and start to help
Sarah McCracken: them understand the challenges that that you're facing and you don't be needing those
Sarah McCracken: tens of millions of dollars either. You can go direct to them through their
Sarah McCracken: constituency, through their Westminster offices. It's all open access,
Sarah McCracken: and just go for it. Write them a letter, send them a letter. That's the
Sarah McCracken: one. Invite them out to your to your community group, you know, invite them into
Sarah McCracken: your premises, sit down and have a cup of tea and a chat about what
Sarah McCracken: the challenges are and just help move the conversation forward. Oh,
Joanne Lockwood: yes. It's all about what I say. The facts don't change people.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's trying to cross that bridge between the
Joanne Lockwood: emotion and the logic, isn't it? And that's that's the challenge we have.
Joanne Lockwood: Because if if the facts change me, I I wouldn't drive too fast. I wouldn't
Joanne Lockwood: eat red meat. I'd be go for a run every day. I'd be healthy. But
Joanne Lockwood: the reality is I haven't got the emotional connection with some of those things.
Joanne Lockwood: That's how does PR bridge that
Joanne Lockwood: emotion versus logic gap? That comes back to how you tell your
Sarah McCracken: story, your your storyteller. So, yeah, like you said, if
Sarah McCracken: I send you, you know, a two page briefing document, if you've written all the
Sarah McCracken: bullet points about the issues, yeah. I'll, I'll skim read it. I might pick
Sarah McCracken: up the headline and that'll be it. But if I sit down with somebody or
Sarah McCracken: if I was to brief a spokesperson to go in and have a conversation with
Sarah McCracken: a journalist, with a politician, whoever it happens to be, and have them tell
Sarah McCracken: their story, then then that's gonna have a much bigger impact. So say you're
Sarah McCracken: working on an issue in connection with, young carers, which is
Sarah McCracken: an an issue I've I've worked on previously. You know, you need to get the
Sarah McCracken: young people telling their story about the impacts that caring for
Sarah McCracken: their their family member has on them. And that is so much more powerful than
Sarah McCracken: than you or I telling their story on on their behalf. Yeah. I think we're
Joanne Lockwood: seeing a lot of stuff in the media at the moment around toxic behavior in
Joanne Lockwood: the workplace. Obviously, we had a big
Joanne Lockwood: push. Sara Everard, Me Too movement. These kind of but
Joanne Lockwood: we're seeing some more recent, displays
Joanne Lockwood: of toxicity coming out. How do people
Joanne Lockwood: know they're not alone? How how can we how can we get people to
Joanne Lockwood: trust that they will be heard? Because that's that's part of the problem as well,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? Trust. Absolutely. And,
Sarah McCracken: again, knowing that other people are going through what you have gone through,
Sarah McCracken: I think is really important. So the first step for me and I I have
Sarah McCracken: faced some very toxic, workplace environments. And the first step for me is always
Sarah McCracken: telling somebody. So it might be a trusted colleague or it might be
Sarah McCracken: somebody completely unconnected with work. Could be a WhatsApp, could be,
Sarah McCracken: you know, whatever it hap a cup of tea in a chat, whatever it happens
Sarah McCracken: to be. But once you speak it into existence, I
Sarah McCracken: guarantee you'll find out that somebody else is going through something similar. And it's by
Sarah McCracken: talking it through, then you can start to understand what your potential options
Sarah McCracken: might be. I think that the me too movement is,
Sarah McCracken: you know, particularly interesting because every single day there is yet another story.
Sarah McCracken: There is yet another article out there of something that has
Sarah McCracken: clearly gone wrong somewhere that I I use the phrase hiding in plain sight
Sarah McCracken: quite a lot. You know, the perpetrators are hiding in plain sight. So again, the
Sarah McCracken: more we talk about it, the more we can share experiences and the more that
Sarah McCracken: we can mobilize and and come together to tackle whatever the issue happens to
Sarah McCracken: be. In the paper again is, a a
Joanne Lockwood: previously senior royal family member who, for whatever
Joanne Lockwood: reason, seems to keep having a
Joanne Lockwood: negative story about them in relation to
Joanne Lockwood: past acquaintances, people who are proved to be,
Joanne Lockwood: mind my words here, involved with sexual
Joanne Lockwood: offenses potentially in the past. So is there a danger sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: that we we think we can put a
Joanne Lockwood: veneer over the story and hope that people are gonna wash with
Joanne Lockwood: it? But the reality is if if you don't go deep enough and cut hard
Joanne Lockwood: enough and and expose yourself deep enough the first time, it could
Joanne Lockwood: be death by a thousand cuts. People are gonna come back on you. They're gonna
Joanne Lockwood: keep digging and digging and digging and until they really get to the bone. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's what we're seeing with this particular individual at the moment.
Joanne Lockwood: It's, they weren't authentic. Even if you don't like that word.
Sarah McCracken: Maybe they were. Yeah. They were lying. Maybe
Joanne Lockwood: well, maybe that's a strong word. Yeah. They they weren't telling the whole truth. Let's
Joanne Lockwood: put it that way. Oh, they're telling their version of it. Yeah. I mean, for
Sarah McCracken: a journalist, that's the story that keeps on giving. But but I think,
Sarah McCracken: put putting that to one side, I I think this is where the value of
Sarah McCracken: understanding PR and communications really comes in, you know, as as a business, as
Sarah McCracken: an individual. And again, back to the thing, if you're doing something wrong,
Sarah McCracken: you're gonna get found out. So working with individuals who are, you know,
Sarah McCracken: nice people. If you have somebody on your side who understands the media landscape,
Sarah McCracken: then they can they can advise you on, is it a good idea to do
Sarah McCracken: an interview like that one that we're talking about? Probably not. But clearly, they're
Sarah McCracken: not listening, and they've gone ahead and done it. So, again, it's it's working with
Sarah McCracken: our trusted comms adviser as to where be the best place to tell my story.
Sarah McCracken: So it could be a news night story. It could be in the Guardian. It
Sarah McCracken: could be on a on a podcast somewhere. But, again, having somebody on your
Sarah McCracken: side help prep for it, is also useful. And, again, media
Sarah McCracken: training isn't about learning how to lie on camera. It's it's about how to answer
Sarah McCracken: the questions. It's about how to come across as the type of person that you
Sarah McCracken: really are to the listeners. It's helping you bridge between the awkward questions that
Sarah McCracken: that that are gonna be pending. And if you've done something wrong, front it up.
Sarah McCracken: You know, you can admit your mistake and you can come out better than,
Sarah McCracken: making up stories and talking nonsense. That's getting ahead, control of the
Joanne Lockwood: narrative, owning your story again, isn't it? It's kinda what you're saying there.
Sarah McCracken: Oh, absolutely. And it's back to what is it you're trying to achieve. If something's
Sarah McCracken: gone wrong, it it it's gone wrong. That's where your crisis comes come in comes
Sarah McCracken: into play. It is gonna affect your reputation, as an individual or as an
Sarah McCracken: organization. So again, it's just understanding how things work
Sarah McCracken: and you will come through it. But again, it's how then you then in in
Sarah McCracken: the future then start to rebuild that reputation, rebuild that visibility, in a
Sarah McCracken: positive manner as well. Yeah. I suppose in my experience, when things have gone
Joanne Lockwood: wrong, they go worse. The more you try and dig,
Joanne Lockwood: don't they? And I I think especially when you're very much in the public
Joanne Lockwood: eye, there are people with a vested interest to keep digging. And I think that's
Joanne Lockwood: that's the problem we find is that you're better off just
Joanne Lockwood: telling the truth, resigning, running away, hiding for a bit, and then
Joanne Lockwood: coming back again. Obviously,
Joanne Lockwood: it's not a career. Career limiting, but but yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: You It was a genuine individual trying to create that change in the world. Are,
Sarah McCracken: are we then worrying too much about the consequences when, you know, those with
Sarah McCracken: much thicker skins who are now running other countries, shall we say, are just
Sarah McCracken: carrying on putting out those incorrect messages.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Talking about people with tics getting running other countries. It's it's incredible what's going
Joanne Lockwood: on at the moment where it said they seem to be oblivious
Joanne Lockwood: or consciously oblivious to,
Joanne Lockwood: messages going out. They're so focused on their version of the truth. And that, I
Joanne Lockwood: think you've mentioned that just now. It's your perspective. It's your version of the truth.
Joanne Lockwood: If you get, if you really believe it and become invested in it, then you
Joanne Lockwood: say it with confidence, don't you? And I think you're not willing to listen to
Joanne Lockwood: other people's versions. And, again, you're controlling the narrative.
Joanne Lockwood: You're not negotiating. You're you're owning that that stance, I think. It's it's
Joanne Lockwood: quite a powerful technique, isn't it? Although I'm not not saying I advocate it, but
Joanne Lockwood: it's a powerful technique. Yeah. And I mean, what can we learn from that? So
Sarah McCracken: if others maybe with a more
Sarah McCracken: aspect to their personalities who who wanted to create positive change in the world, if
Sarah McCracken: if they started to take on some of those characteristics and be really forceful
Sarah McCracken: and forthright in what they want to say, would that help those messages,
Sarah McCracken: land better? Might have to give it a go. But again, it's not getting into
Sarah McCracken: that public argument. Who do we need to be targeting? How do you
Sarah McCracken: really sort of hone in on who you need to be speaking to and then
Sarah McCracken: building from the ground up? I think certainly that's, you know, if you can mobilize
Sarah McCracken: the masses on your side as well, that starts to help as well. So it
Sarah McCracken: could be a hundred people, it could be five people, could be a million people,
Sarah McCracken: whatever it happens to be to start to to build that change that that
Sarah McCracken: that we need. The problem with that position is it's
Joanne Lockwood: quite a privilege to have that that that communications power.
Joanne Lockwood: People were talking about, you know, we're touching on EDI, DNI,
Joanne Lockwood: diversity inclusion here. And one of the challenges we find where
Joanne Lockwood: people are marginalized, they are voiceless. They don't have the
Joanne Lockwood: access to these rooms, these people, these channels.
Joanne Lockwood: So often the PR goes or the messaging goes
Joanne Lockwood: undefended because no one's listening. They can't get the message out.
Sarah McCracken: Yeah. And that's something that shouldn't be happening. I mean, in terms
Sarah McCracken: of the media, in terms of politicians, you know, any single
Sarah McCracken: person can start to build a relationship with a
Sarah McCracken: journalist or a politician. But again, it's understanding that that that is
Sarah McCracken: an option open to you. So I suppose there's an education piece there as well.
Sarah McCracken: You does it start within a community? Does it start with with within schools to
Sarah McCracken: try and educate our young people better as to, you know, they they do have
Sarah McCracken: the power in their hands, but it's it's how we get them to understand how
Sarah McCracken: they can use it then for the benefit. But but you're absolutely right. It's it's
Sarah McCracken: people with no voice or marginalized voices are struggling to get
Sarah McCracken: that messaging out there in terms of the change we need to see. So what
Sarah McCracken: can you and I in a position of privilege do to help them? And that
Sarah McCracken: that's part of what I'm about. That's why I would run master classes on how
Sarah McCracken: to raise your visibility. You know, it's why I'm trying to put content out of
Sarah McCracken: my socials to really help people get the basics of PR, and
Sarah McCracken: then, hopefully, they will take that then and start to use it for themselves.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I agree. And that's what we gotta do. We gotta, believe we're not
Joanne Lockwood: alone, team up. But the danger the danger I found
Joanne Lockwood: is that and I I've had it to me. I I do a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: media stuff. I even go on GB News occasionally and, I put my
Joanne Lockwood: put myself in the lion's den and get abused by the
Joanne Lockwood: guest and placenta sometimes. And a word that keeps being
Joanne Lockwood: thrown at me is I'm an activist. So just
Joanne Lockwood: start throwing that word at somebody. It creates a
Joanne Lockwood: stereotype. It creates a devaluation of my view. It implies that
Joanne Lockwood: I'm fighting and angry and protesting.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm mobilizing. All these kind of words spring to mind, and
Joanne Lockwood: the imagery suddenly pops into your head. This person's
Joanne Lockwood: a a thug or whatever. There's all the nice people. They're wearing suits
Joanne Lockwood: and ties. They're reasonable. They're lovely people. An activist
Joanne Lockwood: comes us up some sort of a narcic person, I think. That's the danger
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes of creating a a mob, even even a
Joanne Lockwood: well mannered mob. That that's an interesting
Sarah McCracken: one. I said, are you gonna be throwing, you know, tomato sip over the Mona
Sarah McCracken: Lisa for just stop oil? You know, that that that's an activist.
Sarah McCracken: Interestingly enough, I am currently working for the Climate Coalition at the
Sarah McCracken: minute, for great big green week, which is taking place at the June. And the
Sarah McCracken: theme is let's swap together for good. So it's how can how can we, I
Sarah McCracken: don't know, swap fossil fuels for solar panels? How can we as a community
Sarah McCracken: come together to, you know, develop? And I soar into
Sarah McCracken: beautiful pollinator rich, area that that people can
Sarah McCracken: enjoy. And it's exactly that. The people participating in that are not
Sarah McCracken: activists in that sense of the word of, you know, I with with placards.
Sarah McCracken: They're they're quietly getting on with it. They're quietly making the
Sarah McCracken: changes to target, climate change and and improve nature.
Sarah McCracken: So so that's exactly right. How do we how do we develop the messaging around
Sarah McCracken: that? How do we create that story of what they're doing to show that
Sarah McCracken: anybody can make change, and you don't have to be tuning yourself to the brilliance.
Sarah McCracken: You can if you want. No. You know, I'm not standing your way. No. I'll
Sarah McCracken: bring you a cup of tea while while you're stood there. I'm not letting whoever
Sarah McCracken: it is through. You know, it's it's it's there's millions of people out
Sarah McCracken: there who are quietly getting on with it, quietly making the changes that we need
Sarah McCracken: to say. And again, how do we celebrate that? How do we find those stories?
Sarah McCracken: How do we get those into the public domain? Because those could be pretty powerful.
Sarah McCracken: And I think it's back to what we already talked about. How do we, do
Sarah McCracken: we start to speak it into existence and start discussing these things with each other?
Sarah McCracken: And then you say, oh, yes. They're doing that. And I'm doing that too. And
Sarah McCracken: we're doing it together. You things then will start to build momentum from that. As
Joanne Lockwood: you talk about climate change, Alan, as you're talking, I'm thinking, Greta Thunberg.
Joanne Lockwood: And how are the negative stereotypes around her, being an activist, being
Joanne Lockwood: young, being autistic, suddenly, what does
Joanne Lockwood: she know? She's a scruffy little teenager sitting on the street with a
Joanne Lockwood: placard where we've got all these scientists who know far more, and she's
Joanne Lockwood: just causing trouble. And I think I was watching, Ed
Joanne Lockwood: Miliband on the news last last, and there's negative stuff coming out about
Joanne Lockwood: him. It's all trying to government need to get
Joanne Lockwood: rid of him because he's crazy, and he's he's come up with all these harebrained
Joanne Lockwood: climate ideas. It's like so you can see that the lobby groups are out
Joanne Lockwood: there counter briefing these positive green energy,
Joanne Lockwood: positive sustainability stories. And you sometimes have
Joanne Lockwood: to lean back and think, what are they trying to sell me?
Joanne Lockwood: What's this story trying to sell me? It's trying to sell me. Oil is good.
Joanne Lockwood: Fossil fuels are good. Power is good. Incumbency is
Joanne Lockwood: good. This new found stuff is bad
Joanne Lockwood: because it's not not what we make money out of. And it's, protectionism
Joanne Lockwood: about the status quo some of it, isn't it? That's a very cynical and probably
Sarah McCracken: very accurate way way of looking at things, I would suggest. Yeah. But it's
Sarah McCracken: it's back to what we talked about. Your negativity sells. Do you know there's no
Sarah McCracken: point in running a story about, oh, how great it is with three bees in
Sarah McCracken: the garden? But yeah. And, again, for for a communication specialist, it's
Sarah McCracken: it's it's how we take positive stories and turn them into something that
Sarah McCracken: we can pitch the media, that we we can create content around and get
Sarah McCracken: on the socials and get out of that bubble of of of negativity.
Sarah McCracken: So, yeah, there is a skill to it. I mean, anybody can do PR. I'm
Sarah McCracken: happy to teach you the basics, but it's, you know, by building up those relationships
Sarah McCracken: with journalists, it's by building up relationships with with our politicians that we can really
Sarah McCracken: start to make the meaningful change that that we need to see. Of course, we
Joanne Lockwood: live in a world of, social media. We're all journalists. We're all
Joanne Lockwood: publishers. We all have access. It's it's it's just learning that you you can't have
Joanne Lockwood: a voice, and you don't have to change the world. You just gotta change one
Joanne Lockwood: or two people and create create a movement. Yeah, be that activist if you wanna
Joanne Lockwood: be an actress. But we don't have to be silent, do we?
Sarah McCracken: Absolutely not. And social media is is a gift in in
Sarah McCracken: that sense. I mean, back in the day when I used to fax press
Sarah McCracken: releases, you know, when it was harder to get your story out there, we we
Sarah McCracken: all now have a direct line to whoever it is that we want to talk
Sarah McCracken: to. Now notwithstanding the algorithms and they keep feeding you
Sarah McCracken: content, you know, that they think you're going to like, there is a way out
Sarah McCracken: there to to to get in touch with people to to create those
Sarah McCracken: profiles, that movement, like like you just alluded to, which is
Sarah McCracken: absolutely brilliant. I mean, there's a negative side to it as well. I did a
Sarah McCracken: talk last week to some masters students basically reminding them not to
Sarah McCracken: post nonsense on social media because it could really jeopardize their careers in the future.
Sarah McCracken: You know, which stories start to resurface. So there there's pros and cons to socials,
Sarah McCracken: but I I personally think the pros outweigh the cons, especially if
Sarah McCracken: we use it intentionally to educate, to inform, to build
Sarah McCracken: connections. And I've met so many really awesome people through social
Sarah McCracken: media from all different spheres, all all different types of organizations. So
Sarah McCracken: so there's so many people out there that are doing good things that we can
Sarah McCracken: connect with. And, yeah, like you said, choosing your social media platform appropriately
Sarah McCracken: can really help take that story forward. We met on social media. We found it
Joanne Lockwood: on Facebook somehow, don't we? So, yeah, it's, it's awesome people connect.
Joanne Lockwood: That's brilliant. I think the word you picked up there was the intentionality or
Joanne Lockwood: intentional. So you're not just shooting from the hip.
Joanne Lockwood: You're being measured, intentional. You understand about the
Joanne Lockwood: impact over over and above your intent, what you're trying to get out of
Joanne Lockwood: it. It's when you go half baked and you're speaking
Joanne Lockwood: from the emotion, from your amygdala kicks in, your vagus nerve kicks in, you kinda
Joanne Lockwood: you're angry and feisty. And I wanna have I wanna tell you teach
Joanne Lockwood: you a lesson there. That's when it kind of goes a bit pear shaped.
Sarah McCracken: Potentially, yes. I'm smiling to myself here. You you know when you get an email
Sarah McCracken: into the inbox from maybe somebody in work and they've just wound you up the
Sarah McCracken: wrong way and you hit the reply instantly, you know, that that's when it can
Sarah McCracken: go pear shaped. Social media is an interesting one. And and and, yes, you know,
Sarah McCracken: as a as as a PR lead, you know, I would be advising you, you
Sarah McCracken: know, not to respond to that comment immediately. It's maybe just wait and see.
Sarah McCracken: You know, is the story going to play out? Because when you do respond,
Sarah McCracken: with emotion, you might perpetuate the story. Whereas if you maybe
Sarah McCracken: just let it sit ten minutes, twenty minutes, twenty four hours, whatever it happens to
Sarah McCracken: be, it it could just then fizzle out. And you'll definitely feel better when you've
Sarah McCracken: gone away and made yourself a cup of tea and then come back to it.
Sarah McCracken: But it can be difficult, especially if people are attacking you personally.
Sarah McCracken: And and again, maybe there's different coping mechanisms when you look at them, which is
Sarah McCracken: just not reading the comments. It's it's like old New Theater critics and you don't
Sarah McCracken: don't don't read the reviews after the first night. You know, should you be reading
Sarah McCracken: your restaurant reviews? But you know what? If if people are attacking you, it's really,
Sarah McCracken: really hard. But again, so taking that deep breaths,
Sarah McCracken: moral high ground, and then coming back to it with a with an actual plan
Sarah McCracken: of of how you might counter the story. I mean, if it's defamatory or libelous,
Sarah McCracken: you use a potential court case in your hand and you don't want to be
Sarah McCracken: jeopardized in that. Or if it's just low grade irritations, you maybe
Sarah McCracken: just have to choose to ignore it, which which is difficult. I've been thinking back
Joanne Lockwood: to another recent story that where someone obviously
Joanne Lockwood: was pausing and reflecting and the story just got worse while they were keeping quiet.
Joanne Lockwood: It was the, former Archbishop of Canterbury, if I remember rightly.
Joanne Lockwood: He, he came out, We stood up at the House of Lords
Joanne Lockwood: and joked and laughed. So completely inappropriate messaging, but you could see
Joanne Lockwood: the momentum building about you could see the trajectory
Joanne Lockwood: was, he's gonna end up resigning. And you wonder somehow whether
Joanne Lockwood: he either wasn't listening to his advisers, or they were believing their own
Joanne Lockwood: PR that they could ride this out. But clearly, by the hour, it
Joanne Lockwood: was deteriorating. I think, well, it's only a matter of time now before he resigned,
Joanne Lockwood: and then sure enough, he resigned. So that that's often the case for politicians as
Joanne Lockwood: well as where they're trying to cling on that or that or
Joanne Lockwood: just hoping that if they keep quiet and don't react, it will just blow
Joanne Lockwood: over. But it doesn't, does it? Sometimes you you sometimes you have to put a
Joanne Lockwood: message out. Yeah. You have to put the message out there. But again,
Sarah McCracken: it's it's deciding what the best course of action is and there there's no right
Sarah McCracken: or wrong answers. You know, maybe the archbishop did genuinely think he could he could
Sarah McCracken: ride this out. We don't know because we weren't party to to the discussions, but
Sarah McCracken: you do see other cases like that, interview about the royal we discussed
Sarah McCracken: earlier, you know, clearly not listening to any advice whatsoever. And, you
Sarah McCracken: know, I've even read stories from the journalist who who did the interview that, you
Sarah McCracken: know, she basically said it was ill advised and they couldn't understand
Sarah McCracken: why he actually agreed to it, but there you go. They they got their their
Sarah McCracken: story on that, as well. Yeah. You you you want
Sarah McCracken: to listen to your advisors, but equally who's given you the advice if it's people
Sarah McCracken: you've surrounded with because they say yes, that's not gonna help you in the long
Sarah McCracken: term. If there might be independent with a different viewpoint, that could be potentially
Sarah McCracken: useful for you, as well. And it's as well from a PR perspective, it's by
Sarah McCracken: tapping that overview of the wider news agenda. So it could be
Sarah McCracken: quite a small issue which then gets blown out of proportion or
Sarah McCracken: escalates to to something bigger because of of the wider news context.
Sarah McCracken: I mean, looking at the case, within the church and for the archbishop, I
Sarah McCracken: mean, that that is a story that you're we're seeing over and over and over
Sarah McCracken: again. So there's still something wrong there that that needs to be fundamentally dealt with.
Sarah McCracken: But, yeah,
Sarah McCracken: other case studies out there of, you know, how he was advised or who was
Sarah McCracken: advised and and did they generally think it it would blow over?
Joanne Lockwood: So you work predominantly with the business owners.
Joanne Lockwood: I know you're passionate about having female led organizations as
Joanne Lockwood: well. How do you go about engaging
Joanne Lockwood: with them to start with? Or do you have a sort of kind of a
Joanne Lockwood: step by step walk through about how you how you approach this? Is it
Joanne Lockwood: about trying to understand, you know, you must just a fact finding on their brand,
Joanne Lockwood: their their values and things, I guess, at the beginning? Yes. I've I've a number
Sarah McCracken: of different approaches. I mean, I've been working free time for myself since
Sarah McCracken: October 2024. I spent about a year and a half before that doing my own
Sarah McCracken: PR, building my own profile, my own visibility, and starting to do some PR
Sarah McCracken: training, on the side, while I still had my day job. So that
Sarah McCracken: that all helped. So so now what I do a lot of
Sarah McCracken: I spend a lot of time in LinkedIn. Never thought I would say that. But
Sarah McCracken: actually, in terms of platform, it's it's very nice. There's there's nice people on it.
Sarah McCracken: I'm not saying a lot of the toxicity and negativity that we'd see on other
Sarah McCracken: other platforms. So, I spent a lot of time trying to
Sarah McCracken: understand who I'm trying to talk to. My natural affinity is with
Sarah McCracken: women, with female business owners, with women who are trying to progress in their careers,
Sarah McCracken: and those working particularly in the comms industry. So, again, that's where I'm
Sarah McCracken: gravitating to at the minute. But equally, it's about understanding what
Sarah McCracken: where where it is and how I can help them. So having done a
Sarah McCracken: lot of work, through Women NPR in Northern Ireland, which I cofounded in
Sarah McCracken: 02/2018, What was coming up when we just,
Sarah McCracken: spoke with the women there was they just lacked confidence. You know, they felt like
Sarah McCracken: imposters. They felt invisible. And, again, they've they were having
Sarah McCracken: challenges, and they didn't realize that half the people in the room were
Sarah McCracken: facing similar challenges. So again, it's how do I bring people together
Sarah McCracken: to talk those issues through, to know that they're
Sarah McCracken: absolutely flipping brilliant at what it is that they do and that I can
Sarah McCracken: sit with them and take through step by step then and just how to start
Sarah McCracken: to tell their own story in whatever sphere they happen to work in. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwood: think if I I I I've gone through my own imposter
Joanne Lockwood: syndrome journey. I spent when I when I started this business eight of
Joanne Lockwood: it years ago, it took me a while to find a voice. I was a
Joanne Lockwood: lurker on on LinkedIn, on the platforms, and maybe the
Joanne Lockwood: you brave it and like a comment, and then you might put a little comment.
Joanne Lockwood: They might put a bit more, then you might put a bit more, then you
Joanne Lockwood: might share something with a comment. And eventually, you think, hang
Joanne Lockwood: on a minute. I need my voice here. I need to be the author. I
Joanne Lockwood: need to own my own story now. It does take a while because
Joanne Lockwood: you're looking for approval early on. You want someone to validate you.
Joanne Lockwood: Again, the imposter syndrome, the limiting belief. What about what do I know? What do
Joanne Lockwood: I matter? Takes a real it's takes a journey to find that
Joanne Lockwood: voice. Absolutely. And I've been there myself. It
Sarah McCracken: was a couple of years ago now. I got myself a wonderful career coach,
Sarah McCracken: because I wanted to move on from my role. It wasn't serving me. I wasn't
Sarah McCracken: achieving what I wanted. And I I did a lot of work with them
Sarah McCracken: in terms of where I was going next. And and part of that was to
Sarah McCracken: start to engage more on social media. I mean, I love writing. I
Sarah McCracken: do PR. I can write content till the cows come home, but I
Sarah McCracken: remember physically thinking ill at the thought of I am now gonna write
Sarah McCracken: something and put it on LinkedIn. So I had overcome all that myself. And, yeah,
Sarah McCracken: it's it's a mindset. It's a limiting belief. And once somebody gives you
Sarah McCracken: that little push to do it and you've done it, it's like, oh, the world
Sarah McCracken: hasn't hasn't ended. So I hope I could be that little push for some people
Sarah McCracken: to start just to have that confident confidence to start maybe posting more content,
Sarah McCracken: whatever it happens to be, or, you know, pitching to a podcast or just,
Sarah McCracken: you know, cohesively or comprehensively looking at to how they can
Sarah McCracken: just develop a plan to achieve what it is they they want to achieve.
Sarah McCracken: But yeah, I get imposter syndrome all the time. Like, let let's be realistic here.
Sarah McCracken: I I deliver. I was delivering a training course in public affairs and there was
Sarah McCracken: the next politician on the call and was thinking, why aren't you my guest speaker?
Sarah McCracken: Why am I why why why am I why are you here? So you this
Sarah McCracken: all whizzes through your head and then you have a big smile. It's like, well,
Sarah McCracken: hello and welcome. How are you today? And then you have a conversation and you
Sarah McCracken: understand why they're there, and then you start to help each other out. But, yeah,
Sarah McCracken: we just have to keep working throughout. Yeah. I I used to have this thing
Joanne Lockwood: about this podcast. I was I used to pitch it to people I knew.
Joanne Lockwood: Easy targets. And then, I started going you know, we talked
Joanne Lockwood: about earlier going onto Facebook, just posting into these Facebook groups, be a
Joanne Lockwood: guest. Because I realized, you know, this is episode a
Joanne Lockwood: 57. You know, I've I've been doing this for five
Joanne Lockwood: years now. Five years I've been doing this podcast. I'm a
Joanne Lockwood: podcaster. I think, yeah. I now identify as a podcast. And then before I
Joanne Lockwood: was just like, now I don't know what I'm doing. There's always people out there
Joanne Lockwood: with big shows and big this and big that. What do I know? And then
Joanne Lockwood: he realized that actually taking that first step, actually doing
Joanne Lockwood: something makes you makes you're doing it. And you have to start owning it and
Joanne Lockwood: you need to get the momentum. And now I go on to LinkedIn and think
Joanne Lockwood: this person's I like their opinion. I like what they're saying. Let's just start
Joanne Lockwood: dropping stuff into their inbox and DM ing them and saying, I think you're brilliant.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd love to have a chat with you on my podcast. And all of a
Joanne Lockwood: sudden, people say, oh, okay. I'll I'll have a go at that. I've pitched a
Joanne Lockwood: couple of people on Instagram who are kind of,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't wanna be unkind. See this D list type, TV
Joanne Lockwood: personalities who've been in drama shows, put that. And one of them actually engaged and
Joanne Lockwood: wrote back and said, yeah, tell me more. Here's my email address.
Joanne Lockwood: Write to me, and I'll see what I can do. Oh, yeah. But
Joanne Lockwood: so, of course, once you get start getting up up the
Joanne Lockwood: alphabet towards the a list, you start building more credibility,
Joanne Lockwood: don't you? You you then up yourself from being a a zed list interview, and
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not saying you're a zed list. But you move into that kind of
Joanne Lockwood: b's and c's and d's, and then suddenly, they say, oh, who
Joanne Lockwood: else has been on? Oh, they've been on it. And then they feel like they're
Joanne Lockwood: in the in the right zone as well. So you gotta try and create that
Joanne Lockwood: credibility. Yeah. Fake it till you make it, if you like. But that
Joanne Lockwood: takes a bit of bit of backbone sometimes, doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yeah. And you you sit there thinking, should I send that should I send
Sarah McCracken: the email? What's what's the worst that's gonna happen? They're gonna say no is the
Sarah McCracken: worst, or they might just ignore you. But but either way, you've lost
Sarah McCracken: absolutely nothing by by sending that request. Who wouldn't want to come on your podcast?
Sarah McCracken: Do you know? Brilliant. Yeah. I know. And but and and it's also like that.
Sarah McCracken: It's in a virtuous circle. It's, you know, you you do one interview and then
Sarah McCracken: that creates credibility. I mean, when I, looked into
Sarah McCracken: your podcast, Sam has been a former guest.
Sarah McCracken: He's just brilliant. And I, I'm involved in the Social Selling Academy, which
Sarah McCracken: she's involved in. So that immediately gives you credibility. I might what am I on?
Sarah McCracken: Lister? Anyway, that that immediately give you credibility for me to think, yes. No. I
Sarah McCracken: I will go and speak to to Jo Jo on our podcast, which is just
Sarah McCracken: great. Oh, I remember now. You you sort of said I remember you you posted
Joanne Lockwood: back saying, oh, it sounds good on. That sounds like a good podcast. So, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it is. It's, that it comes back to what
Joanne Lockwood: Sam talked about social selling. It's about creating that brand, that curiosity, and that
Joanne Lockwood: reputation of being consistent, isn't it? Yeah. So every little
Sarah McCracken: helps. And it's it does really frustrate me. You know, I would go in and
Sarah McCracken: talk to a lot of business scripts or I would run webinars on visibility and
Sarah McCracken: and PR in general. And it it it is frustrating when people think, oh, I
Sarah McCracken: don't like social media. I don't know what to do. And it's really not about
Sarah McCracken: you. It's about you, your product, your business, your service. And social media is just
Sarah McCracken: a channel to get it out into the world. So once you kinda get over
Sarah McCracken: that little ich, if you like, in your head, the next bit is how do
Sarah McCracken: we create some content. And, again, people get stuck on what content can I
Sarah McCracken: create, you know, two minutes of conversation, and I'm just blown away by
Sarah McCracken: the brilliance of people and the stories they have to tell, and then we can
Sarah McCracken: create content, around that? And then the next step is just, oh my goodness. What
Sarah McCracken: if nobody likes it? Also what? At least it's out in the domain. People will
Sarah McCracken: love it. I can guarantee it. And then we just that's that first step. And
Sarah McCracken: then the next first step, and then the next first step after that. And before
Sarah McCracken: you know it, you look back and look how far you've come. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I love that. It's as long as you're intentional and you're doing it from the
Joanne Lockwood: right place, then having an opinion is what people want. They want your opinion. They
Joanne Lockwood: want you to believe in something. And I, I, I always quote Chris
Joanne Lockwood: Evans, the broadcaster, when he said, you gotta be Marmite. Half of us gotta love
Joanne Lockwood: you and half of us gotta hate you. Because that way you polarize your audience
Joanne Lockwood: and then you've got an audience where you're nothing to nobody or nothing to
Joanne Lockwood: anybody. Nobody resonates with you. So you've really got to try and polarize
Joanne Lockwood: your tribe or your people, Even if it's, even if it's just a
Joanne Lockwood: minority tribe, whatever it is, know who you're, know who you're speaking
Joanne Lockwood: to. And the people who aren't going to listen, don't worry about them. You want
Joanne Lockwood: to speak to the people who do this echo chamber. Let's keep, keep feeding the
Joanne Lockwood: echo chamber. Well, I know people don't like me because they go onto Twitter and
Joanne Lockwood: search my name. I feel sorry. There's a nurse with the same name, Joanne Lockwood.
Joanne Lockwood: She does some great stuff, but, but, yeah, if you
Joanne Lockwood: search for Joanne Lockwood, you'll see, I follow the toxic stuff about me. And it's,
Joanne Lockwood: it's quite funny, some of it, because I don't do anything about it because
Joanne Lockwood: it's all engagement. It all amplifies. It's all creating a message. You
Joanne Lockwood: know, I look at my YouTube comments and, you know, everyone, everyone I know
Joanne Lockwood: shares, says each month. I bet there was positive reviews on my YouTube. I get
Joanne Lockwood: thousands of toxic issues on my my YouTube. Lots
Joanne Lockwood: of down likes. And it's, it's just part of it. And I just
Joanne Lockwood: look at it and go, you've read it. You've taken part. You've engaged.
Joanne Lockwood: You've amplified me. You've boosted it. That's fine. Go for it. Keep going.
Joanne Lockwood: My job is done. You're proving my point. I love that.
Sarah McCracken: Yeah. They don't realize they're actually contributing to raising your profile in a positive
Sarah McCracken: sense. So yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. If I can become infamous in their circles, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: they? Because there's various shades of
Joanne Lockwood: gray, isn't there, with people's negativity. Some people are followers.
Joanne Lockwood: Some people are kind of on the fences. They're not quite sure. Some of the
Joanne Lockwood: the leaders, they were protagonists of the whole thing. So all I wanna I don't
Joanne Lockwood: wanna talk to the protagonists, the people who are anti ant. I want to sort
Joanne Lockwood: the people who are kind of the undersiders. They want to find out more people,
Joanne Lockwood: the laggards, if you like in that, the lurkers. I can engage with
Joanne Lockwood: them. And then they go, oh, I wonder what she's really on about. Yeah. Okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Forget your ear. I can not, I've got opportunities. But yeah. If you never
Joanne Lockwood: say anything, how can people ever hear you? But think of the negativity
Sarah McCracken: as well it costs or the energy it costs to write that negativity.
Sarah McCracken: Do you know, imagine if if that kind of energy was channeled into something that
Sarah McCracken: you're doing something good or or being nice to somebody. I mean, gosh, the world
Sarah McCracken: would be a better place. We wouldn't be on this podcast discussing it.
Joanne Lockwood: No. Well, I I get people who take the trouble to somehow
Joanne Lockwood: work out my address and write a letter to me and tell me how much
Joanne Lockwood: they don't like me. Let alone emails. Yeah. I get,
Joanne Lockwood: get all this stuff and it's like, well, fair play. You've done, you've done some
Joanne Lockwood: research. You haven't just got the tweet back or something. You've, you've
Joanne Lockwood: actually found my website and you've gone to my info page. You found
Joanne Lockwood: my email address in the contact me page And you've sent me an email. If
Joanne Lockwood: you actually type words, it's like, wow, I'm impressed. This is this is
Joanne Lockwood: good. So I'm I'm laughing at the letter writers because they've actually had to buy
Sarah McCracken: a stamp. It's cost for money. And they should have to buy a stamp.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Of course, my public address is my accountants. My accountants are forwarding it on
Joanne Lockwood: for the love stamp. So, yeah, it's like two stamps. Keeping the post office going
Sarah McCracken: single handed here. Very good. It's like £3. Yeah.
Sarah McCracken: Boy, love it. But yeah. But I but I think some of that negativity, it
Sarah McCracken: it is also what causes reticence in new business owners, business leaders.
Sarah McCracken: You know, they're they're selling perfectly reasonable new products and
Sarah McCracken: services. You know, it's not even gonna be something necessarily controversial
Sarah McCracken: for for want of a better description. So there is just a apprehension of if
Sarah McCracken: I do post content or if I promote what I'm doing, it's even, oh, people
Sarah McCracken: are gonna think, you know, who does she think she is? Do you know who
Sarah McCracken: did you know, how would she know all that kind of thing? And again, that's
Sarah McCracken: a confidence thing. That's something that's instilled in us from a, from a young age
Sarah McCracken: that you shouldn't blow your own trumpet, that you shouldn't be singing your own praises.
Sarah McCracken: I'm over that in case you can't tell. And again, I want to then start
Sarah McCracken: to help other people, other women in particular, just, just have that confidence to do
Sarah McCracken: that. And once they start, oh my goodness, they don't stop. It's absolutely
Sarah McCracken: phenomenal to see. I get a nice email and saying, look, I read you're saying
Sarah McCracken: I I watched your your YouTube video and I've won the other day from from
Sarah McCracken: a girl. And you know, I've watched a YouTube video. I've discussed
Sarah McCracken: it with my team and we're now going to implement some of the things that,
Sarah McCracken: that you said to do equally terrifying and brilliant, to be honest and terrifying that
Sarah McCracken: they've listened, but brilliant that I know it'll make a difference what they're about to
Sarah McCracken: do. So it is, it is nice to give that positive feedback, But it It
Sarah McCracken: is. It's nice to be quoted, isn't it? Where people quote you, or they
Joanne Lockwood: they bump into you six months later. So I've listened to this, and I read
Joanne Lockwood: that. You're a hero of mine. And you go,
Joanne Lockwood: wow. Thank you. Thank you. Didn't know anyone for listening.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. Yeah. That's the other thing. When you go on the radio sometimes and
Sarah McCracken: do do a broadcast, I've done a few of them for the various
Sarah McCracken: organizations I've worked with. And you think, I mean, we're having a chatty. You think
Sarah McCracken: nobody's listening. So I've done a radio interview and then ten minutes later, I get
Sarah McCracken: a text or a phone call from somebody going, I just heard you on the
Sarah McCracken: radio. Somebody was actually, that's what did I say? Did it sound okay?
Sarah McCracken: But again, I can't undo what I've just said or spoken about, and
Sarah McCracken: that's just the way it happens to be. Yeah. I get that
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes when I'm I got I've done a few l LPC, Nick
Joanne Lockwood: Ferrari type, and some other ones on an LPC. And and I I
Joanne Lockwood: get someone text me later. They go, oh, I was in my car driving here,
Joanne Lockwood: and I was just having my my coffee and sitting in the canteen. And I
Joanne Lockwood: thought, I know that voice. It's like, so you get a little text message a
Joanne Lockwood: little bit. They say, oh, there are people out there. It's nice. It's nice. It
Sarah McCracken: is nice. It validates what you do. I think it validates you know, we talk
Joanne Lockwood: about PR. You can be a bit thankless. You know, you feel like you're just
Joanne Lockwood: blowing into the wind sometimes and hoping something sticks and lands. And
Joanne Lockwood: And when it does, it really is an ego boost. Ego is maybe the wrong
Joanne Lockwood: word, but a a confidence boost maybe. Yeah. And you mentioned
Sarah McCracken: earlier about how do you measure the value of PR, you know, because
Sarah McCracken: obviously marketing ad spend, you can see all that. You can see a direct
Sarah McCracken: link into product sales because marketing is about selling stuff. Sorry to all the
Sarah McCracken: marketers listening. So so PR, it's it is different. It's about that reputation,
Sarah McCracken: that engagement piece. So, again, setting your objectives. You I want two
Sarah McCracken: brief 10 politicians. I want to achieve three newspaper feature
Sarah McCracken: articles. I want to tell the story about x, y, and
Sarah McCracken: zed. So it's setting different types of objectives. But I do know, you know, if
Sarah McCracken: you're looking for something, say you want to want to get a career coach or
Sarah McCracken: a service like that, if you Google that or Google somebody's name because they've
Sarah McCracken: been recommended, if you find an article about them somewhere on the Internet,
Sarah McCracken: maybe, you know, in a magazine or a newspaper or a blog or whatever it
Sarah McCracken: happens to be, then you're gonna think, oh, they've got a bit of credibility because
Sarah McCracken: I can now read a bit more about them. So so that's the value of
Sarah McCracken: PR as well. It's it's building that credibility through different outlets
Sarah McCracken: that's not paid for. So, again, that that's gonna enhance your credibility
Sarah McCracken: and hopefully down the line boost your presence. And, again, you
Sarah McCracken: know, from from features, from from articles, you can see an uplift perhaps
Sarah McCracken: in your website traffic or in product sales when when an article has has come
Sarah McCracken: out. So so there are ours where there are ways around it, but keeping at
Sarah McCracken: the heart of it, PR is about your reputation and your visibility and your credibility.
Sarah McCracken: That's how you listen and engage with your stakeholders, and you'll not go too far
Sarah McCracken: wrong. No. And one of my, one of
Joanne Lockwood: the things I often say to people is, you know, the old adage in business
Joanne Lockwood: was it's not what you know, it's who you know. And I I said that's
Joanne Lockwood: moved on now. It's not what you know, who you know, but who knows you.
Sarah McCracken: Exactly. And PR is about trying to get that who are
Joanne Lockwood: you out your message, your brand, whatever it is.
Joanne Lockwood: Marketing messages, whatever, selling stuff. Also, who am I?
Joanne Lockwood: That's that's the PR side. So I don't it's not that I don't care who
Joanne Lockwood: you are, but I care more that you know who I am. And this is
Joanne Lockwood: kind of that's what PR does because it's making sure you position yourself
Joanne Lockwood: in the minds of people but in the right way. The the example
Sarah McCracken: I've used recently in some of my trainings is, what what
Sarah McCracken: are they saying about you when you're not in the room? So I think it's
Sarah McCracken: very similar to what you've just said. You know, with with this the marketing
Sarah McCracken: students last week, I had some, you know, some celebrity examples. What are you
Sarah McCracken: saying about them when you're not in the room? One was a
Sarah McCracken: controversial owner of a social media platform. I think that's how we'll describe them. And
Sarah McCracken: and, again, some there was divided opinions. Some people thought he was a great business
Sarah McCracken: person. Other people thought he was a bit of a prat. So, again but it's
Sarah McCracken: it's understanding how is that opinion formed. Because I did challenge, well, have you met
Sarah McCracken: him? Do do you know what that they're really like? I also Taylor Swift as
Sarah McCracken: a a slightly better example. But, again, there were Swifties in the room. There was
Sarah McCracken: people who didn't like her. And again, it's the conversation then is how have
Sarah McCracken: you formed that opinion about people? So it it can apply it to you and
Sarah McCracken: me as well. You hire people. The people's listening to this podcast have formed an
Sarah McCracken: opinion about me. Good or bad. I I don't know what it is. If it's
Sarah McCracken: it's good, please get in touch with me. Let's have a cup of tea and
Sarah McCracken: a chat. If it's bad, write me a letter because you'll have to pay for
Sarah McCracken: a stamp. Who knows? A stamp on it. But you know, what are people saying
Sarah McCracken: about you when you're not in the room? That is how PR can help.
Joanne Lockwood: No, I agree. I think that's, I think that's good. And touching on Taylor Swift
Joanne Lockwood: there, I mean, I think she's a fantastic singer. Actually more importantly,
Joanne Lockwood: she's a fantastic businesswoman as well, business person as well. She is a
Joanne Lockwood: phenomenal entrepreneur in the way she's merchandised and marketed
Joanne Lockwood: and created that brand and that wealth she's accumulated to spice. It's
Joanne Lockwood: not just by singing it. She's created a brand. I think that's the powerful thing
Joanne Lockwood: with Taylor Swift on the same way. We've got other, other people. But, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: you look at people like maybe in the past, Elvis, they were kind of made
Joanne Lockwood: by a manager or made by an example. I think Taylor Swift's own
Joanne Lockwood: zone, their own brand and image. I think that that's
Joanne Lockwood: that's what I always admire with Taylor Swift anyway. So, yeah, that's how I
Joanne Lockwood: describe her. A fantastic singer and a fantastic businesswoman. That's
Sarah McCracken: good. Yeah. And what can we learn from that? You know, if if we're feeling
Sarah McCracken: reticent about taking that first step and that next first step, you know, what was
Sarah McCracken: Taylor Swift's first step? What would Taylor do? Maybe that could be your new mantra.
Joanne Lockwood: Taylor, what would Taylor do? Yeah. She'd leave her
Joanne Lockwood: record company and rerecord all the songs so they didn't get any revenue for the
Joanne Lockwood: old back catalog. Yeah. That's I think that's that's a great thing. That's it. Own
Joanne Lockwood: own your content is a is a great it's a great lesson from that. Own
Joanne Lockwood: your content and don't give it away for free or don't don't sign a deal
Joanne Lockwood: with it. It restricts your use of content. So, yeah, I think that's a good
Joanne Lockwood: lesson as well. Yep. So, Sarah, if if people
Joanne Lockwood: wanna write to you properly, yeah, electronically. I mean, I don't
Joanne Lockwood: suggest if I pops out, buys a stamp, and sticks on them when I post.
Joanne Lockwood: So how how can people find you, get hold of you? I spend a lot
Sarah McCracken: of time on LinkedIn. So Sarah McCracken, FCIPR,
Sarah McCracken: which is fellow of the chartered and sheet of public relations. So you'll you'll find
Sarah McCracken: me on on LinkedIn a lot. And, again, it's what's worked well for me
Sarah McCracken: as as as a brand, as a service provider. I have
Sarah McCracken: content on Instagram. But, again, Instagram is really difficult. So, again, if you're judging where
Sarah McCracken: to put your social content, where is your audience hanging out? So
Sarah McCracken: LinkedIn, Sarah McCracken. Instagram is sarah mccracken
Sarah McCracken: underscore p r. Or if you would rather have content about chickens,
Sarah McCracken: no alpacas, maybe some sheep. You've got Sarah's come to life on
Sarah McCracken: Instagram as well. It's a bit more lighthearted. I also have a website, which is
Sarah McCracken: www.theprclub.co.uk. And I do have
Sarah McCracken: some free resources and downloads on that as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Fabulous. Well, I'll put a link to all that in the show notes below.
Joanne Lockwood: Sarah, just for those who are listening, s a r a. No
Joanne Lockwood: no h. Sarah without an h. McCracken is m
Joanne Lockwood: small c big C r a c k e
Joanne Lockwood: n. Is that yep. That's me. Yes. Oh, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: There it is. It's been a fantastic chat talking about PR, alpacas, Taylor
Joanne Lockwood: Swift, and people of the public eye we probably keep
Joanne Lockwood: talking about. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express
Joanne Lockwood: my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending
Joanne Lockwood: your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing
Joanne Lockwood: community, driving real change. Share this journey with
Joanne Lockwood: friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that
Joanne Lockwood: matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to
Joanne Lockwood: share? I'm all ears. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with
Joanne Lockwood: more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.