WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:19.205 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:19.825 --> 00:00:23.425 belonging, and societal transformation. Ever 5 00:00:23.425 --> 00:00:27.265 wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not 6 00:00:27.265 --> 00:00:30.550 only belongs but thrives? You're not 7 00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:34.149 alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:34.690 --> 00:00:38.629 challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate 9 00:00:38.770 --> 00:00:42.465 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.465 --> 00:00:46.385 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.385 --> 00:00:49.925 connect, reflect, and inspire action 12 00:00:49.985 --> 00:00:53.684 together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation 13 00:00:53.745 --> 00:00:55.344 too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.344 --> 00:00:59.320 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to 15 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.700 share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:07.160 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:10.780 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.705 --> 00:01:18.705 Today is episode 158 with 19 00:01:18.705 --> 00:01:22.085 the title confidence, balance, and success. 20 00:01:22.545 --> 00:01:26.385 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome James R 21 00:01:26.385 --> 00:01:29.750 Elliott. Hello. James is a transformational coach, 22 00:01:30.290 --> 00:01:33.970 an international speaker with over twenty four years of 23 00:01:33.970 --> 00:01:37.910 helping business leaders, entrepreneurs, and professionals build thriving 24 00:01:37.970 --> 00:01:41.890 businesses whilst maintaining freedom and 25 00:01:41.890 --> 00:01:45.885 their personal fulfillment. When I asked James to describe his superpower, 26 00:01:46.345 --> 00:01:50.265 he said it is empowering people to unlock their 27 00:01:50.265 --> 00:01:53.485 potential and take action towards a confident, 28 00:01:53.785 --> 00:01:57.785 balanced, and successful life. So, James, welcome 29 00:01:57.785 --> 00:02:01.460 to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Joanne. Appreciate it. That's a 30 00:02:01.460 --> 00:02:05.220 pleasure. We'll chat just now. And, you're, I believe, in 31 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:09.139 from Toronto in Canada? Yes. I am. Yep. Born and raised here. 32 00:02:09.139 --> 00:02:12.360 Traveled to the world, but born and raised right here at home. Yeah. 33 00:02:13.444 --> 00:02:16.965 You're across the border behind the Northern Wall. Yeah. Of, 34 00:02:17.205 --> 00:02:21.065 Exactly. The Northern Trump Wall. The United States Of Trump at the moment. Yeah. 35 00:02:21.685 --> 00:02:25.605 We we are. We're behind you that Northern Trump the invisible perhaps Trump wall, 36 00:02:25.605 --> 00:02:29.430 but it's there. So, James, it's great to have you 37 00:02:29.430 --> 00:02:33.269 on. I'm I'm pleased you've given up your time today. Your work 38 00:02:33.269 --> 00:02:36.950 revolves around, confidence is a balance and helping others, 39 00:02:37.829 --> 00:02:41.815 because you wanna help them create their life they love. So what inspired you? 40 00:02:41.815 --> 00:02:45.815 What got you into this? What's your experience? My life, a life of 41 00:02:45.815 --> 00:02:49.175 a lot of lessons and learning. You may not wish for my life, but but 42 00:02:49.175 --> 00:02:53.175 it I love it. And it's been great ups and downs, failures. And 43 00:02:53.175 --> 00:02:56.980 I no longer believe in failure. It's just only growth and learnings and feedback. You 44 00:02:56.980 --> 00:03:00.740 win or you learn really is, is, is my thoughts. So depending how far back 45 00:03:00.740 --> 00:03:03.940 you want me to go. Long story. Well, I'll start with the start with the 46 00:03:03.940 --> 00:03:06.980 corporate world. And then we come back to the childhood too, but the, the corporate 47 00:03:06.980 --> 00:03:10.535 world learned, learned a lot there working for companies like IBM, 48 00:03:10.755 --> 00:03:14.755 Novell, which is the Microsoft, the 1980s and, and Lenovo, the 49 00:03:14.755 --> 00:03:18.755 computer company. Working for years and years there as well. A variety of roles, all 50 00:03:18.755 --> 00:03:22.570 dealing with people, all touching people, all helping people. In fact a lot of my 51 00:03:22.570 --> 00:03:26.170 career it was my role to support and empower our 52 00:03:26.170 --> 00:03:30.090 resellers our business partners to do well. In variety of 53 00:03:30.090 --> 00:03:33.645 ways and when they did well they sold more of our products Thus, we did 54 00:03:33.645 --> 00:03:37.345 well in myself. You know, I was compensated on how well they did. So 55 00:03:37.805 --> 00:03:41.005 it was in my best interest to make sure that a lot of our business 56 00:03:41.005 --> 00:03:45.005 partners, some very, very small mom and pop shops, multi, multi, 57 00:03:45.005 --> 00:03:48.790 multimillion dollar. Like I said, some of the $50.60, dollars 60, dollars 70 million 58 00:03:48.790 --> 00:03:52.790 quarters, some quarters, depending where I was working with. And I, I always had a 59 00:03:52.790 --> 00:03:56.470 combination of mom and pop shops who were very proud to when he hit his 60 00:03:56.470 --> 00:03:59.350 first million, this one gentleman very, and I was proud of him too. Very proud. 61 00:03:59.350 --> 00:04:03.085 I've had, like I said, companies with $30.35, dollars 40,000,000 62 00:04:03.085 --> 00:04:06.845 quotas that we're working on. Coming from there, learning a 63 00:04:06.845 --> 00:04:10.765 lot, learning a great deal, but also learning, you know, how I don't wanna 64 00:04:10.765 --> 00:04:14.445 run my business. Learning great leaders, not so great leaders, 65 00:04:14.605 --> 00:04:18.570 great cultures, not so great cultures. It it was a fantastic lesson that way 66 00:04:18.570 --> 00:04:22.030 when I started my own business eleven years ago, helping people. 67 00:04:22.730 --> 00:04:26.730 A business is small and large. It's been an incredible journey again, up 68 00:04:26.730 --> 00:04:30.525 and down and all around like much of life is and helps us learn high 69 00:04:30.525 --> 00:04:34.444 highs and low lows, just like life, just like leadership, just like entrepreneurship, right? 70 00:04:34.444 --> 00:04:37.565 Life has a lot of great stuff. And, and we focus on that. We feel 71 00:04:37.565 --> 00:04:40.764 pretty great. Life has a lot of not so great stuff and we focus on 72 00:04:40.764 --> 00:04:43.970 the not so great stuff. We're going to feel not so great. So I've learned 73 00:04:44.030 --> 00:04:48.030 related to, to become highly resilient and perseverant. One 74 00:04:48.030 --> 00:04:51.229 of the things I speak on, one of the things I love to teach is 75 00:04:51.229 --> 00:04:54.830 perseverance and, and really how to get through immense 76 00:04:54.830 --> 00:04:58.795 challenges, tough times, adversity, during great times of challenge and change 77 00:04:58.795 --> 00:05:02.715 and how leaders can help themselves and their teams do that too. Because that was 78 00:05:02.715 --> 00:05:06.635 me. It's a very authentic thing that was me persevering through 79 00:05:06.635 --> 00:05:09.115 all the things that, and I'm happy to happy to chat about those. We can 80 00:05:09.115 --> 00:05:12.110 get at them too. But that's really how I got into what I, what I, 81 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:16.030 what I do. I I've always been a, I love teaching, always love helping people. 82 00:05:16.030 --> 00:05:19.789 I love supporting people. I'm making an impact and really helping 83 00:05:19.789 --> 00:05:22.935 people who want to help people. I always love to do that. And so it 84 00:05:22.935 --> 00:05:26.615 became a fairly natural thing for me, first of the coach and then very, very 85 00:05:26.615 --> 00:05:30.375 quickly transitioned to being speaker teacher. Cause I, I just love giving love teaching love 86 00:05:30.375 --> 00:05:34.055 big audiences. That that's in a nutshell, how, at 87 00:05:34.055 --> 00:05:37.139 least recently, how I got in things, oh, oh, laid off in the height of 88 00:05:37.139 --> 00:05:41.139 my corporate career, not once, but twice. So, and I, I didn't 89 00:05:41.139 --> 00:05:44.740 listen to the universe or whoever, whatever the first time. And it was, it was 90 00:05:44.740 --> 00:05:48.660 interesting, like winning. Not to toot my own horn, but says, add as example, 91 00:05:48.660 --> 00:05:51.895 that's going to happen to anyone IBM employee of the year. And then a couple 92 00:05:51.895 --> 00:05:55.775 of years later, laid off corporate downsizing or moving jobs or moving them back 93 00:05:55.775 --> 00:05:59.775 here or doing this. We're shutting in your division, took a year off the 94 00:05:59.775 --> 00:06:03.775 summer of James traveled the world, lived the summer of the cottage, and then, went 95 00:06:03.775 --> 00:06:07.620 back to the corporate world. And almost four years later, you know, calling me, 96 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:11.300 congratulations, James, you've won the awards club. You've won president's club. 97 00:06:11.300 --> 00:06:14.020 Amazing work. You blew your numbers away. You did this and that. This is your 98 00:06:14.020 --> 00:06:16.980 great work. And I said, great. Well, when is it? Well, they said, well, we're 99 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:20.360 actually, we're going to give you money instead of letting you come to the awards 100 00:06:20.500 --> 00:06:24.445 events. I said, why? Why would, why I wanna go 101 00:06:24.445 --> 00:06:28.445 down, like, have some fun. See my colleagues. He's like, well, because actually today 102 00:06:28.445 --> 00:06:32.205 is your last day here with us. So I was like, what? Say 103 00:06:32.205 --> 00:06:36.169 congratulations and goodbye. It was it was almost comical. I'm like, 104 00:06:36.169 --> 00:06:39.289 are you being serious? He's like, yeah. I am. I'm like, okay. I mean, great. 105 00:06:39.530 --> 00:06:43.130 And it was like I won the lottery almost, Joanne, because I I wasn't happy. 106 00:06:43.130 --> 00:06:46.889 I wanted out of there. I made great money, but I was I was depressed. 107 00:06:46.889 --> 00:06:50.055 I was anxious. I wasn't happy with my life. Fortunately, I think that's a lot 108 00:06:50.055 --> 00:06:53.655 of people these days. Yeah. So how's work? Oh, it sucks, but it pays the 109 00:06:53.655 --> 00:06:57.015 bills or works work or it's there and works okay. Or I live for the 110 00:06:57.015 --> 00:07:01.015 weekends or some permutation of that, which breaks my heart. So 111 00:07:01.015 --> 00:07:04.389 that's, that's, you know, I thought after the second layoff, I started to pay attention 112 00:07:04.389 --> 00:07:08.090 to the nudges from the universe. I'm like, okay. Okay. It's it's a sign. 113 00:07:08.310 --> 00:07:12.090 So then started my own business. I always knew I love to help people. Started 114 00:07:12.229 --> 00:07:15.270 doing a few things and now found my way here to what I really love 115 00:07:15.270 --> 00:07:19.205 doing to to empowering people, teaching, speaking, and leading. That is that's 116 00:07:19.205 --> 00:07:22.104 a fascinating story. I so much of that resonates with me, 117 00:07:23.125 --> 00:07:27.125 in that find that epiphany moment where you, you 118 00:07:27.125 --> 00:07:30.750 realize what this core machine is all about. It's never about you, is it? That's 119 00:07:30.750 --> 00:07:34.270 that's the problem. You think you're the the key 120 00:07:34.270 --> 00:07:38.050 pillar. You think you're the driving strategy. You're right in there. 121 00:07:38.190 --> 00:07:42.030 And then in a blink, you're irrelevant. And it's like, hang on a minute. That 122 00:07:42.030 --> 00:07:46.025 was first of the year. It's exact. And it's a shame that I 123 00:07:46.025 --> 00:07:49.305 suppose that's one thing I love to help organizations with because when people feel like 124 00:07:49.305 --> 00:07:53.305 numbers, they're gonna be disengaged. They're gonna be on this thing all day or, or 125 00:07:53.305 --> 00:07:57.145 social media or, or actively dis distracted when they feel like numbers, they feel like 126 00:07:57.145 --> 00:07:59.880 not they're valuable. They're just there to push buttons. They can be replaced at any 127 00:08:00.100 --> 00:08:03.380 time. They may they may just will be. When people feel that way, it harms 128 00:08:03.380 --> 00:08:07.220 corporate culture. It harms everything. When people feel like nothing, 129 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:10.580 disposable, worthless, just a number, they can get can go in a blink of an 130 00:08:10.580 --> 00:08:13.855 eye, you know, and it's it's ironic. Our parents always say, you'll find a stable 131 00:08:13.855 --> 00:08:17.775 job, get a good, reliable job. There is, I don't that exists these 132 00:08:17.775 --> 00:08:21.135 days, unless you have your own business. I don't think that exists in, in, in 133 00:08:21.135 --> 00:08:24.915 life anymore. As I learned and you learned in the blink of an eye and 134 00:08:25.630 --> 00:08:29.550 that's why I I do love, you know, with taught teaching leaders just how 135 00:08:29.550 --> 00:08:33.470 to have people feel like people because they'll do 136 00:08:33.470 --> 00:08:36.750 so much better. They'll go so much further. They'll go way above and beyond when 137 00:08:36.750 --> 00:08:40.025 you're an awesome leader and you treat people like people and, and really take care 138 00:08:40.025 --> 00:08:44.025 of them. Yes. It takes a little extra time air quotes. However, 139 00:08:44.025 --> 00:08:47.305 it actually, the long run saves you immense time because people aren't leaving, you don't 140 00:08:47.305 --> 00:08:50.765 have to retrain people. People get greater, greater results, greater 141 00:08:50.825 --> 00:08:54.770 satisfaction, absenteeism, greater performance on the job, greater 142 00:08:54.770 --> 00:08:58.770 productivity. So actually saves money, saves time in the long, in the long 143 00:08:58.770 --> 00:09:02.690 run by spending a little more time, making sure people, your people are great and 144 00:09:02.690 --> 00:09:06.625 give them what they need. Yeah. I do a lot of work with 145 00:09:06.625 --> 00:09:10.404 the, middle managers, senior managers. I wouldn't say 146 00:09:10.464 --> 00:09:14.464 board level, but those people are aspiring. And too often I'm on these 147 00:09:14.464 --> 00:09:18.305 calls listening to what they're saying. And I feel that they they they drunk the 148 00:09:18.305 --> 00:09:22.130 corporate call aid or whatever the phrase is where they believe 149 00:09:22.130 --> 00:09:25.970 if they keep trying, keep their head down, keep pushing, keep pushing, they'll be recognized 150 00:09:25.970 --> 00:09:29.810 as they're spotted. And then there's a change of management. And then 151 00:09:29.810 --> 00:09:33.584 suddenly they find that they've gotta start again. They gotta re re 152 00:09:33.584 --> 00:09:36.545 brown those whatever words you wanna use. They gotta Yeah. Exactly. Or someone brings in 153 00:09:36.545 --> 00:09:39.985 their best friend. Exactly. You're you're right. It happened. I've seen it happen many times. 154 00:09:39.985 --> 00:09:42.625 And I've been I cut you off, but you're right. You know, someone's next in 155 00:09:42.625 --> 00:09:45.420 line. They're just about there. You don't get promoted, but then they they get sick 156 00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:49.339 or someone dies, someone leaves, someone gets hired out or retires or whatever and 157 00:09:49.339 --> 00:09:52.380 or downsides. And then you're right. Then the new, the new, new, the new exec 158 00:09:52.380 --> 00:09:55.600 brings all his own people, her own people in their own people in. 159 00:09:56.139 --> 00:09:59.735 And there where you were at literally almost they walk at the tip of the 160 00:09:59.735 --> 00:10:03.255 mountain. Well, you gotta climb all the way back up that mountain to to like, 161 00:10:03.255 --> 00:10:05.495 is it brown nose your way up or lead your way up or prove your 162 00:10:05.495 --> 00:10:09.195 way up? Yeah. Yeah. But that's the learned behavior, isn't it? It it's 163 00:10:09.894 --> 00:10:12.855 if you get knocked back down six levels, you you go back to your learned 164 00:10:12.855 --> 00:10:16.390 behavior, which is how to climb back. I often say to these people, what do 165 00:10:16.390 --> 00:10:19.430 you think is gonna be different this time? Fair. Fair. And they go I said, 166 00:10:19.430 --> 00:10:23.430 well, isn't it time to just admit that you need a new strategy? You 167 00:10:23.430 --> 00:10:27.130 need to attack this from a different way. You need to change jobs, change companies, 168 00:10:27.350 --> 00:10:31.295 go on your own, or be more strategic internally because and then I've 169 00:10:31.295 --> 00:10:34.495 I've mentored these people over years and they come back and it happened again. I 170 00:10:34.495 --> 00:10:37.375 said, okay. So what have we learned this time? What exactly did we learn? Last 171 00:10:37.375 --> 00:10:41.375 time. And the alert behavior is get back on the same runs and do the 172 00:10:41.375 --> 00:10:44.815 same again and keep trying. I guess you better work harder, work later, show more, 173 00:10:44.815 --> 00:10:48.529 brown knows the same versus you're right changing your strategy there changing. 174 00:10:48.910 --> 00:10:50.990 There was a saying I don't know who came up with it might have been 175 00:10:50.990 --> 00:10:54.750 me but if you wanna raise, you know, get one to raise a promotion go 176 00:10:54.750 --> 00:10:57.870 get a new go go for it for a new company, versus you know begging 177 00:10:57.870 --> 00:11:01.355 for a little small little raise at a current company. Go work for new companies, 178 00:11:01.355 --> 00:11:04.395 say I'm amazing. This is my experience. If you want me, this is, this is 179 00:11:04.395 --> 00:11:07.915 what are the, my, my prices to, to have me versus begging and 180 00:11:07.915 --> 00:11:11.835 clamoring at a current company. And been there, done that for, for 181 00:11:11.835 --> 00:11:15.780 a small raise when you're doing so much. You know? It's getting I mean, 182 00:11:15.780 --> 00:11:19.080 we've seen examples of of very famous people who've 183 00:11:19.460 --> 00:11:23.060 started out as the janitor and ended up as the CEO or whatever. We see 184 00:11:23.060 --> 00:11:25.380 that, but there are there are only a handful of these people in the world, 185 00:11:25.380 --> 00:11:28.425 and they've got and they write the books and they tell the story. Well, exactly. 186 00:11:28.425 --> 00:11:31.325 The answer is for most people, it's not yeah. As you say, 187 00:11:32.505 --> 00:11:36.505 you're better off thinking a different tactic because I 188 00:11:36.505 --> 00:11:40.210 always find that you get anchored to your starting point. You're always 189 00:11:40.210 --> 00:11:44.130 seen as an apprentice, always seen as an intern, always seen as a 190 00:11:44.130 --> 00:11:48.050 junior. And the people around you keep growing around you, and 191 00:11:48.050 --> 00:11:51.330 they always see you five levels below. So you've gotta come in at a higher 192 00:11:51.330 --> 00:11:54.725 level and people perceive you differently. And that's a that's a real challenge for people 193 00:11:54.725 --> 00:11:58.165 to escape their mindset. I think, Ray, especially when when peers, and I've seen it, 194 00:11:58.165 --> 00:12:02.005 two peers, one gets promoted and they're now the leader, the manager, the supervisor, and 195 00:12:02.005 --> 00:12:04.810 and their body or or just their peers are like, well, I'm not listening to 196 00:12:04.810 --> 00:12:07.370 you. You're you're just one of me. I'm not listening to any causes a lot 197 00:12:07.370 --> 00:12:10.170 of issues and then often that leader fails unless they find a way to make 198 00:12:10.170 --> 00:12:13.529 it work or unless they're moved to a totally different team or again, if they 199 00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.730 go to a totally different company as a leader that can work better. But you're 200 00:12:16.730 --> 00:12:19.334 right. If they just promoted to a leader of their peers, it's like, oh, it's 201 00:12:19.334 --> 00:12:23.175 just it's just John. It's just it's just Jane, whatever. They don't really see 202 00:12:23.175 --> 00:12:27.095 them as as absolute authority. So it's it's super, super interesting to see 203 00:12:27.095 --> 00:12:30.714 that as well unless they are moved to a dramatically new team or company. 204 00:12:31.430 --> 00:12:34.230 Yeah. I I got out of the corporate life in the nineties. I used to 205 00:12:34.230 --> 00:12:37.850 work for a private bank in the city of London. Oh, cool. 206 00:12:37.910 --> 00:12:41.910 Global global private bank. And, I remember I had this a fantastic job. I was 207 00:12:41.910 --> 00:12:44.890 in IT, computer at the time. I used to be head of 208 00:12:45.645 --> 00:12:49.405 global systems. So I used to deploy PCs and servers, Nobel 209 00:12:49.405 --> 00:12:53.005 network, actually, as it happened. There we go. Yeah. Around the 210 00:12:53.005 --> 00:12:56.445 world. They did a big reorg, and then they gave me this new job, which 211 00:12:56.445 --> 00:13:00.420 was responsible for year 2,000 compliance 212 00:13:01.040 --> 00:13:04.580 in, the DECVAC systems, the VACVMS 213 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.560 systems, the Navell, well, the PC. So I was now and I got a letter 214 00:13:08.560 --> 00:13:12.495 from the IT director saying, basically, if you mess up, 215 00:13:12.495 --> 00:13:15.394 your bonus is on the line. And I read this, I thought, 216 00:13:16.415 --> 00:13:20.255 one, I don't want the job. Didn't want I was quite I loved my old 217 00:13:20.255 --> 00:13:23.135 job. The the job I applied for was the one I had. I loved that 218 00:13:23.135 --> 00:13:26.730 job. I really loved it, and I wanted to keep doing it. And 219 00:13:26.730 --> 00:13:30.270 secondly, I don't wanna be spoken that way. I don't wanna be 220 00:13:30.810 --> 00:13:33.610 so you and I went I I remember handing my notice in the the the 221 00:13:33.610 --> 00:13:36.730 HR director took me in. And I sort of sat there. You could see he 222 00:13:36.730 --> 00:13:40.394 was fuming and angry because it to work for a bank, there's a lot of 223 00:13:40.394 --> 00:13:44.315 due diligence. It probably took them six months worth of due diligence to hire me. 224 00:13:44.315 --> 00:13:47.355 And that I'd only been there, like, eighteen months or something. So it was fast 225 00:13:47.355 --> 00:13:50.154 there because I just thought I had their life. And I just went, I'm sorry. 226 00:13:50.154 --> 00:13:54.080 I'm out. I'm gonna start my own business. I don't need this anymore. And 227 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:56.560 I never looked back. Yeah. At the time, I had a good salary and I 228 00:13:56.560 --> 00:13:59.440 thought, wow, what am I doing here? And so when I say to people, sometimes 229 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.960 you gotta make that choice and it I know it's a privilege. Yeah. It's a 230 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:06.904 privilege to be able to have that choice. Not everybody has that, but 231 00:14:07.045 --> 00:14:10.345 you can always you can always hide behind it and say, I can't. I can't. 232 00:14:10.805 --> 00:14:14.485 And sometimes you just my family, my money, my this, my that. It's I don't 233 00:14:14.485 --> 00:14:18.245 know how I agreed. Agreed. I, you know, it it's it's it's really 234 00:14:18.245 --> 00:14:21.480 interesting to see. And I've seen with people too, they're that they're at a they're 235 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.600 a great, let's say, great sales rep, great leader, but a horrible company. And I'm 236 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:28.540 like, Leaf, go to a new company. But but I guess, unfortunately, 237 00:14:28.680 --> 00:14:31.720 they they pay them quite well because they know they treat them poorly. They pay 238 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.515 them quite well at these companies I've seen just enough to keep them there because 239 00:14:35.515 --> 00:14:38.555 they're like, well, if I go anywhere else, I wouldn't make as much, which I 240 00:14:38.555 --> 00:14:41.515 think is is a limiting belief. It's a bit true because, yeah, they do pay 241 00:14:41.515 --> 00:14:45.115 them well so they can abuse them so they don't leave. But also, like, she 242 00:14:45.115 --> 00:14:48.235 said, well, this is what I do. I sell this right. I lead this type 243 00:14:48.235 --> 00:14:51.890 of company. Well, could you not sell that or lead that type of company? And 244 00:14:51.890 --> 00:14:54.610 they, their thoughts are, well, no, this is all I know how to sell. This 245 00:14:54.610 --> 00:14:58.530 is all no leadership skills, sales skills are people 246 00:14:58.530 --> 00:15:02.450 skills, relationships, skills, they're cross. It could work for you could sell bread or 247 00:15:02.450 --> 00:15:06.335 spaceships. It's people skills. It's asking questions of talking to people, leading it, 248 00:15:06.335 --> 00:15:10.175 understanding people, making people people feel human and engaging people. Those 249 00:15:10.175 --> 00:15:13.075 beliefs are excuses. Like you said, I can't because blank 250 00:15:14.015 --> 00:15:17.695 is is Yeah. Been there. I can't get married. I can't start a family. I 251 00:15:17.695 --> 00:15:21.610 can't buy a house. I can't. I can't. I can't. Because, because, because. 252 00:15:21.670 --> 00:15:25.350 Yeah. And the other thing this bank did was that they their bonus 253 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:28.950 culture, they paid a really good bank as bonus as most banks do in other 254 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:32.654 companies, is that you got the bonus, but it you got 255 00:15:32.654 --> 00:15:35.855 awarded it, but you didn't get it for another three or four months afterwards. So 256 00:15:35.855 --> 00:15:39.855 therefore, you're always earning the next bonus before you got the 257 00:15:39.855 --> 00:15:43.695 last bonus. So you're always in arrears. So you always had three or four months 258 00:15:43.695 --> 00:15:47.310 that you left. If you leave, you lose, basically. That's really interesting. 259 00:15:47.310 --> 00:15:50.910 You've already started investing in the next year. You you you you 260 00:15:50.910 --> 00:15:54.269 put I'm not sure whether you lost the entire bonus for what you had, but 261 00:15:54.269 --> 00:15:57.870 there was this kind of like, well, I've already invested another four months before I 262 00:15:57.870 --> 00:16:01.585 had it. So I think it's like again, it sucks you in. Deliberate. Very 263 00:16:01.585 --> 00:16:05.345 deliberate. But I remember those days. You you mentioned that, you know, you started back 264 00:16:05.345 --> 00:16:08.645 in the ML network, Microsoft. And I I go back 265 00:16:09.025 --> 00:16:12.700 to, I suppose, my first IT job was 1984. IBM 266 00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:16.620 PCs, HP Vectras at the time, floppy disk, first 267 00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:20.160 Apple Mac, a little tiny portable Apple Mac thing. 268 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:24.240 And I remember those days it was very you know, we talk about 269 00:16:24.885 --> 00:16:28.805 iOS versus Android today. This the battle of the platforms. In those days, 270 00:16:28.805 --> 00:16:32.725 we had IBM, the big, the big monoliths, in Microsoft, the up 271 00:16:32.805 --> 00:16:35.845 upstart coming in, then we had different versions of DOS. Then we had Windows, we 272 00:16:35.845 --> 00:16:39.580 had OS two, We had Novell network. And at least people became very 273 00:16:39.740 --> 00:16:43.260 you could see how people becoming really invested in their tech in their tech and 274 00:16:43.260 --> 00:16:47.180 their specialists. And and it I look back on that and think, when we talk 275 00:16:47.180 --> 00:16:50.925 about culture and inclusion and and diversity, or this sort of thing, people were 276 00:16:50.925 --> 00:16:54.885 very prisoners to their tech side, didn't they? And wherever GoFound come to our 277 00:16:55.005 --> 00:16:58.545 Nobel network died like everything else. Microsoft 278 00:16:58.765 --> 00:17:02.445 phone died. IBM changed its model 279 00:17:02.445 --> 00:17:06.369 completely. True. Completely. Exactly. Lots of services now, you know, 280 00:17:06.369 --> 00:17:10.289 and, in software, less hardware, lots of service. It's interesting to I think when 281 00:17:10.289 --> 00:17:14.130 things change, I because change is the only constant. And that's that's why I think 282 00:17:14.130 --> 00:17:17.829 we need to learn that that that perseverance, that resilience 283 00:17:18.049 --> 00:17:21.984 during, again, times of challenge change, adversity, because that's the only thing that we 284 00:17:21.984 --> 00:17:25.105 can really rely on these days is that there will be change. Is that things 285 00:17:25.105 --> 00:17:29.024 are gonna get shaken up? Is it tomorrow, with Trump tariffs? Is it two 286 00:17:29.024 --> 00:17:33.024 years from now with another war? Is it whatever it is economy up and 287 00:17:33.024 --> 00:17:36.784 down all around? But to your point, I think we need to also change people's 288 00:17:36.784 --> 00:17:40.280 thinking and get rid of the I can't or we that's gonna cost too much 289 00:17:40.280 --> 00:17:43.480 or that it'd be too hard or too long or too whatever or not enough 290 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:46.860 whatever. Because then nothing changes and then inevitably 291 00:17:47.800 --> 00:17:51.645 like Kodak. Kodak invent they invented the digital camera but they 292 00:17:51.885 --> 00:17:55.005 buried it at a vault because they're like, well, no. This is gonna cannibalize all 293 00:17:55.005 --> 00:17:58.045 our film sales. This is a bad idea. So let's not do it. We'll hide 294 00:17:58.045 --> 00:18:01.485 it. And then now Kodak said a business. Blockbuster is the same. Now let's not 295 00:18:01.485 --> 00:18:03.965 do this online thing because then people are not gonna come out of our stores 296 00:18:03.965 --> 00:18:07.899 and buy our things. That's gonna wreck it. But inevitably now blockbusters out of 297 00:18:07.899 --> 00:18:11.179 bed and there's just millions of examples like that. The people that didn't adapt to 298 00:18:11.179 --> 00:18:15.179 change or nope we're not changing and they stand firm and because change is 299 00:18:15.179 --> 00:18:17.980 the only thing that's going to happen that you know is going to happen. And 300 00:18:17.980 --> 00:18:21.885 I think that there was zillions and again, perseverance. Okay. Well, that 301 00:18:21.885 --> 00:18:25.165 didn't work. Let's try that. This didn't work. Let's try that. And, and okay, this 302 00:18:25.165 --> 00:18:28.925 is happening. Let's try this. Yeah. That's 303 00:18:28.925 --> 00:18:32.785 why perseverance and inclusion can be such great and hot topics these days. 304 00:18:33.360 --> 00:18:37.280 Yeah. Because I when I was my own IT business, we're just at cusp from 305 00:18:37.280 --> 00:18:41.120 on premise servers to cloud, and we were a break 306 00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:44.880 fix sort of service provider where we we wanted things to break. We wanted 307 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.480 hardware to go wrong. And then the world was moving very quickly into a cloud 308 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.375 based five nines, reliable, doesn't go 309 00:18:52.375 --> 00:18:56.215 down. So trying to pivot the skill set and the business model to 310 00:18:56.215 --> 00:19:00.155 being a managed service all in. And inevitably, 311 00:19:00.215 --> 00:19:03.980 that's that's a kind of a cliff edge because you've got to invest for no 312 00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:07.180 return and hope to grow that element. And and your customers aren't always ready for 313 00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:10.780 it either, are they? Yep. Fair. Fair. And and take that risk like you said. 314 00:19:10.780 --> 00:19:14.620 You know, you live on that edge. And and I think fate favors the 315 00:19:14.620 --> 00:19:18.335 fearless. You you go all in intelligently, but you go all in. And 316 00:19:18.335 --> 00:19:22.255 and I think fate can favor you versus we're gonna wait, we're gonna 317 00:19:22.255 --> 00:19:25.635 hesitate, or we're gonna take this slow, we're not gonna do that, or 318 00:19:26.175 --> 00:19:30.175 burying our our head and things, I think can be a very, very dangerous thing, 319 00:19:30.175 --> 00:19:34.080 but for business, for success for growth, honestly, it's like, 320 00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:37.600 well, how can we be changing? If things are changing, the world is changing, how 321 00:19:37.600 --> 00:19:40.420 can we constantly be changing and evolving ourselves? 322 00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:45.540 Which is what I suppose led me to be where I am now. I'm 323 00:19:45.845 --> 00:19:49.525 constantly learning, constantly growing with courses, mentors, trainings, you name 324 00:19:49.525 --> 00:19:53.525 it. I think that is for me anyways, it's something 325 00:19:53.525 --> 00:19:56.665 that's been helped me become the man I am, the leader I am, but also 326 00:19:57.525 --> 00:20:01.320 as fulfilling it is and creating the success going back to our our 327 00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:05.000 title. It's creating that success, is by 328 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.000 planning to change, planning for change and and having a almost a almost 329 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.940 a change and growth roadmap for yourself and for your team. 330 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:17.095 Otherwise, because you're literally falling down the mountain versus climbing up the 331 00:20:17.095 --> 00:20:19.975 mountain because someone's have a, someone's got a rocket pack and they're going to rocket 332 00:20:19.975 --> 00:20:23.735 up the mountain ahead of you, or whatever metaphor you want to use. I think 333 00:20:23.735 --> 00:20:27.550 it's a very important to have that, that authorized vision. And to be able to 334 00:20:27.550 --> 00:20:30.510 handle the bumps in the road too, because there will be some and, and they 335 00:20:30.510 --> 00:20:34.030 can be the greatest learnings and sometimes the brightest spots or 336 00:20:34.030 --> 00:20:37.950 highlight the bumps in the road. I find can highlight your brightest stars in the 337 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:41.895 business, in the company too. Your brightest employees, the brightest spots, the best 338 00:20:41.895 --> 00:20:45.095 people because if they stick around and stand strong and say what can I do? 339 00:20:45.095 --> 00:20:48.215 How do you need me? And they they take responsibility for things. I think that 340 00:20:48.215 --> 00:20:51.575 can that can reveal some of your best people you wanna keep around forever. That's 341 00:20:51.575 --> 00:20:55.570 for sure. Yeah. In those times of stress and challenge, isn't it? That's 342 00:20:55.570 --> 00:20:59.490 where the, as you say, the the spotlight, the shine, it's people who can 343 00:20:59.490 --> 00:21:02.870 handle that adversity. It's growth mindset. It's 344 00:21:03.250 --> 00:21:07.015 solution mindset rather than rather than learned behaviors, rather than 345 00:21:07.015 --> 00:21:10.455 rigid structure. You tell me what to do. I need to be managed. I've got 346 00:21:10.615 --> 00:21:14.535 yeah. I give up. Yeah. Exactly. I don't know what to do. Yeah. Yeah. 347 00:21:14.535 --> 00:21:18.135 Right on. But business need a need a blend. I mean, going back to this 348 00:21:18.135 --> 00:21:21.940 diversity of of personality type, it's if if everybody 349 00:21:21.940 --> 00:21:25.460 was a a go getty idea person, you'd have you'd have to keep the show 350 00:21:25.460 --> 00:21:29.299 on the road stuff. We'd have no operations. We'd be changing everything every 351 00:21:29.299 --> 00:21:33.125 five seconds. And everyone's got a a better idea. Just trying to find that 352 00:21:33.125 --> 00:21:37.125 blend, isn't it? I think you're right. It is. And having supporting everyone's 353 00:21:37.125 --> 00:21:40.565 spark, I think. Because you're right. There's we need we need technical people, we need 354 00:21:40.565 --> 00:21:44.485 visionary people, we need people, people, relationship people, all these kind of things. 355 00:21:44.485 --> 00:21:48.290 Yeah. It's it's that making sure that that balance is 356 00:21:48.290 --> 00:21:51.650 there. Cause you want, you want more than one type of person in your, in 357 00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:55.650 your, on your team and people to compliment you as well, but also finding their 358 00:21:55.650 --> 00:21:59.570 spark, finding what lights them up, supporting that, cause then they'll stay, they'll do 359 00:21:59.570 --> 00:22:03.414 better. They'll be excited. You know, helping me, hey, maybe helping them find that spark 360 00:22:03.414 --> 00:22:05.975 because some people don't want it is or they don't wanna let it out for 361 00:22:05.975 --> 00:22:09.895 whatever reason and being seen or judged or heard or or 362 00:22:09.895 --> 00:22:13.575 hated on or whatever. I think people there's this 363 00:22:13.575 --> 00:22:17.280 internal conflict. People want to be seen and heard for their 364 00:22:17.340 --> 00:22:20.620 their authentic, you know, value and and who they are, but also then the the 365 00:22:20.620 --> 00:22:23.740 fears of what if what if I speak up and people don't like it or 366 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:27.040 they they fire me or I they think I'm stupid or or whatever. 367 00:22:28.220 --> 00:22:32.125 Whatever it is, right, ruffle some feathers. And my biggest thing is be authentic. 368 00:22:32.125 --> 00:22:35.645 And if you're authentic and being real and and and as not permission to be 369 00:22:35.645 --> 00:22:39.165 an ass for, but it's it's, you know, being being raw and real and and 370 00:22:39.165 --> 00:22:43.005 and yes, sharing your opinions, share your thoughts whether you're not been or whether you're 371 00:22:43.005 --> 00:22:44.520 you're someone at a at a 372 00:22:48.360 --> 00:22:51.900 kind person, then that's not that's not the firm for you. Or if you're afraid 373 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.600 that you're gonna get fired or think you get fired for being real and authentic. 374 00:22:54.600 --> 00:22:58.540 Well, it's often just a limiting bully for a fear, an unfounded fear. 375 00:22:58.654 --> 00:23:01.294 And again, like I said, if you do get laid off or fired, you're probably 376 00:23:01.294 --> 00:23:04.894 not happy there anyways. I can almost bet my reputation on the fact that you're 377 00:23:04.894 --> 00:23:08.414 not happy and fulfilled there anyways. If you can't be you and speak up or 378 00:23:08.414 --> 00:23:12.414 speak out and contribute, or they're not letting you shine your light sounds a little 379 00:23:12.414 --> 00:23:16.310 airy fairy, but they're not letting you, you show your bright spots and and 380 00:23:16.310 --> 00:23:19.030 really what lights you up, what you're passionate about, because that's gonna make you the 381 00:23:19.030 --> 00:23:22.950 most productive, you know, a leader, team member, mentor, friend, you name 382 00:23:22.950 --> 00:23:26.090 it. You talked by the beginning around, 383 00:23:27.165 --> 00:23:31.005 growing, making mistakes, failing quick, learning fast. And some of that goes back to what 384 00:23:31.005 --> 00:23:34.365 you talked about this fear is is this concept of psychological safety, isn't it? You 385 00:23:34.365 --> 00:23:38.285 know, making sure we can bring ourself into into 386 00:23:38.285 --> 00:23:42.080 into the workplace. We can learn and grow, and we 387 00:23:42.080 --> 00:23:46.080 can make mistakes because, as you said, how many children do 388 00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:49.840 you know that learned to walk without falling over, without bumping the head, without 389 00:23:49.840 --> 00:23:53.600 grazing their knee? Exactly. Exactly. Doesn't happen, does it? You have to 390 00:23:54.304 --> 00:23:57.184 if you if you get it right every time, you don't know what the magic 391 00:23:57.184 --> 00:24:00.625 sauce was to get it right. Exactly. It's only when you make a misstep that 392 00:24:00.625 --> 00:24:03.924 you you suddenly learn, course correct, learned. 393 00:24:04.544 --> 00:24:08.080 Don't do that again. It hurts if I do that. Well, and that's what you're 394 00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:12.020 right. That's what sometimes people with just pure natural talent, coincidentally, 395 00:24:12.159 --> 00:24:14.720 sometimes they're not very good teachers. Because they're like, well, you just do it do 396 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.200 it less. Like, do it do it like I do. And you're like, what? Like, 397 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.399 what are you talking about? So sometimes it's ironic that sometimes that that the true 398 00:24:20.399 --> 00:24:23.945 natural talent, if it was easy for them, it's not easy for most people. So 399 00:24:23.945 --> 00:24:27.545 they often don't make a great teacher. Now that's not that doesn't always hold hold 400 00:24:27.545 --> 00:24:30.585 fast and to hold through, but they're like, because they didn't know what it was 401 00:24:30.585 --> 00:24:33.545