Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary
Joanne Lockwood: for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,
Joanne Lockwood: your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: belonging, and societal transformation. Ever
Joanne Lockwood: wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not
Joanne Lockwood: only belongs but thrives? You're not
Joanne Lockwood: alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen,
Joanne Lockwood: challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate
Joanne Lockwood: deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're
Joanne Lockwood: sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's
Joanne Lockwood: connect, reflect, and inspire action
Joanne Lockwood: together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation
Joanne Lockwood: too. Reach out to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk to
Joanne Lockwood: share your insights or to join me on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to
Joanne Lockwood: ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: And today is episode 159 with the title,
Joanne Lockwood: the science of let's start that again. And today
Joanne Lockwood: is episode 159 with the title, the science of workplace
Joanne Lockwood: equity. And I feel absolute honor and privilege to welcome
Joanne Lockwood: doctor Liz Wilson. Liz is a behavioral scientist
Joanne Lockwood: and strategic inclusion expert dedicated to transforming workplaces,
Joanne Lockwood: data, and research driven frameworks and organizational
Joanne Lockwood: change. And when I asked Liz to describe her superpower, she
Joanne Lockwood: said that it is turning personal adversity into a
Joanne Lockwood: global mission for workplace equity and inclusion. Hello, Liz.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. I think that sounds my superpower makes
Dr. Liz Wilson: me sound like I'm some kind of wild idealist
Dr. Liz Wilson: thinking one person can change the world, but I guess you gotta start
Dr. Liz Wilson: somewhere. Well, I'm a great believer that as much as I want to
Joanne Lockwood: change the world, I know all I know is I can change me. I think
Joanne Lockwood: changing me, showing up the best person I can be is my mission and
Joanne Lockwood: hopefully between us, we can influence by another person. And that's what we were
Joanne Lockwood: that's what we're trying to do with, isn't it? Yeah. And I've been well, before
Dr. Liz Wilson: I even moved into working in inclusion, one of the things when I was focused
Dr. Liz Wilson: on culture change was my career for twenty years before inclusion
Dr. Liz Wilson: was I would say to people, you carry your organizational culture with you. So think
Dr. Liz Wilson: of it, but sort of like your four square meters around you. That's
Dr. Liz Wilson: your organizational culture and you have the influence over those four square
Dr. Liz Wilson: meters. And so I think that's the same thing here that we can talk about.
Dr. Liz Wilson: We take that culture with us, then those that step into that space, we
Dr. Liz Wilson: can influence them to be our organizational culture.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, I love that. I love that. Because I remember when we're coming out
Joanne Lockwood: of COVID, you know, all those years ago, it's like seems like a
Joanne Lockwood: lifetime ago, COVID. Oh, yes. I remember organizations, when they're
Joanne Lockwood: trying to cram people back into the office, they're trying to crowbar them and this,
Joanne Lockwood: this, wow. You know, the culture of the organization is this. We need you back
Joanne Lockwood: in the office. We can give you our culture, and we can buy you in.
Joanne Lockwood: My my debate was I want my culture like my pension. I
Joanne Lockwood: can take it with me from place to place to place. I don't need you
Joanne Lockwood: to give me my culture. And so I want you to absorb
Joanne Lockwood: or recognize my own culture and allow me to develop my
Joanne Lockwood: my personal culture at home, my friends, my family, my community, and not
Joanne Lockwood: expect me to drive two hours each way, just to have a bit
Joanne Lockwood: of your call. And if you're, and I'm looking up, cause I'm
Dr. Liz Wilson: like drawing from like all of the experiences of
Dr. Liz Wilson: organizations. Cause I've been a freelance consultant since I was 26. So I've
Dr. Liz Wilson: not been an employee, a technical employee, but it means I've seen and been
Dr. Liz Wilson: in a lot of different organizations. And for the most part,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I could only name two or three of the dozens of organizations
Dr. Liz Wilson: that would have cultural values that align with mine. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: this values alignment thing, we could go deep into values
Dr. Liz Wilson: alignment or not. But in terms of, we know how toxic some
Dr. Liz Wilson: cultures can be and those cultures aren't necessarily organizations like you're saying about
Dr. Liz Wilson: coming to the office and we can give you our culture. Organizations
Dr. Liz Wilson: are nice in theory or conceptually is having a whole culture,
Dr. Liz Wilson: but we all know it comes down to the manager that we're working with.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Right? So T it starts at the team culture level level, and that
Dr. Liz Wilson: can be created remotely. Anyway, there we go. Duane, I didn't
Dr. Liz Wilson: wanna hijack. We can No. No. No. That's good. I I think
Joanne Lockwood: let's let's go down there. I mean, you're so you're so right. It it does
Joanne Lockwood: it does completely come down to the your point of contact here, your
Joanne Lockwood: supervisor, your manager, the team you're in. Because
Joanne Lockwood: I I'm I'm a great fan of a an author called Rutga Bregman if you've
Joanne Lockwood: ever come across him. He's, two books. One is,
Joanne Lockwood: Eutopia for Realists, and the other one is Humankind. And I subscribe to
Joanne Lockwood: his his belief system, and I think he's a he really sings to me. And
Joanne Lockwood: what it it says is inherently people are good. We don't wake up to be
Joanne Lockwood: bad people. So I I also believe that organizations believe
Joanne Lockwood: they're good. And as we both know, perspective is everything. You know? Just just
Joanne Lockwood: because I believe I'm good doesn't mean so that you believe I'm good. So I
Joanne Lockwood: think organizations do start off believing they're good as somehow that
Joanne Lockwood: message gets diluted or gets lost through people. Because
Joanne Lockwood: people, you can't predict them, can you? They're just they're just people. When
Dr. Liz Wilson: we look, I'm a, I'm a cultural transformation expert. Right?
Dr. Liz Wilson: Like it's what I do for a living. So it's almost sounds like I'm talking
Dr. Liz Wilson: contradictory to what I do and help organizations do, but hear me out on the
Dr. Liz Wilson: theory on this one, because this is how it works in practice. So let's say
Dr. Liz Wilson: you have organization a and organization a is currently
Dr. Liz Wilson: culturally this. Now, if you're listening and not watching, I'm doing like the
Dr. Liz Wilson: inverted commas funny you use in the air because really
Dr. Liz Wilson: culture is made up of behaviors and actions. Okay. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: you can say your behaviors are X, Y, and Zed, but it's, what's
Dr. Liz Wilson: demonstrated. What do we behaviorally do and what are the actions and
Dr. Liz Wilson: decisions that we make? So we can, it's more about how do we
Dr. Liz Wilson: change behaviors and actions? Cause you know what, if we're going to try to move
Dr. Liz Wilson: an organization or that organization from a to b, the point
Dr. Liz Wilson: is you actually can't change people's beliefs or values. And in fact,
Dr. Liz Wilson: you shouldn't be trying to, that is in complete
Dr. Liz Wilson: contrast to the desire to create diversity in
Dr. Liz Wilson: an organization that enhances its ability to be creative and innovative and
Dr. Liz Wilson: high performing. All you're trying to do is ensure there's an alignment of
Dr. Liz Wilson: behaviors and actions to what are those principles
Dr. Liz Wilson: or values. Is that true conceptual? I I don't know if I'm No. No.
Joanne Lockwood: I I buy into that completely. I think I think you're right. And, I simplify
Joanne Lockwood: that down to there's a difference between fitting in and
Joanne Lockwood: being embraced for who you are. Fitting in is is changing you for
Joanne Lockwood: the organization. So what you're talking about there is you're embracing my culture and
Joanne Lockwood: values, and hopefully they align, or we can find some alignment between this,
Joanne Lockwood: but you're not forcing me into yours. Now I'm going to bounce off what you've
Dr. Liz Wilson: said. The yes, and on forcing. Where, you know, the title I
Dr. Liz Wilson: think he gave us today was the science of workplace equity. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: here's a bit of the behavioral science bit behind it. Okay. So the
Dr. Liz Wilson: doctor in me, so is the PhD in behavioral science and in
Dr. Liz Wilson: organizational culture. That's literally what my PhD was. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: what hurts my feelings as a behavioral science person
Dr. Liz Wilson: is that, you know, you can't actually start with developing people's
Dr. Liz Wilson: behaviors. I know, hang with me
Dr. Liz Wilson: here. We actually have to create systems
Dr. Liz Wilson: and architectures, which is the behavioral economics of things. We have
Dr. Liz Wilson: to put systems and processes in place that force
Dr. Liz Wilson: loosely. I don't mean with a stick, but just
Dr. Liz Wilson: require. So I'll soften that word, a certain action
Dr. Liz Wilson: to be demonstrated to go past go. I always, in my mind, I'm
Dr. Liz Wilson: visualizing a monopoly board. If you want to succeed in this organization and get past
Dr. Liz Wilson: go and continue around the board, you have to complete this step.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And so that step, whatever that is, if you were trying to create more inclusive
Dr. Liz Wilson: organization, for instance, since we're on an inclusion bites podcast,
Dr. Liz Wilson: we put an inclusive step in that is required to continue on that
Dr. Liz Wilson: pathway, whether that's in a process in a talent acquisition cycle, or if
Dr. Liz Wilson: it's in the business case and project cycle, whatever it is,
Dr. Liz Wilson: that is the system. And then that means we don't have to change
Dr. Liz Wilson: anyone's beliefs. It's just, if you want to succeed in this organization, you need to
Dr. Liz Wilson: do this action. And then the more times you do that action,
Dr. Liz Wilson: it turns into a behavior. And the the great stuff for me is
Dr. Liz Wilson: as a cultural transformation person is the more things the actions turns into
Dr. Liz Wilson: behaviors, the accumulation of those behaviors then
Dr. Liz Wilson: become your culture. And that's the science of workplace
Dr. Liz Wilson: equity by putting that button on the keyboard that requires you to go
Dr. Liz Wilson: enter for inclusion. So you're rewarding. So below training a
Joanne Lockwood: puppy, you're, you're rewarded behavior. And that behavior is
Joanne Lockwood: alignment with your corporate values. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: if inclusion is part of your own principles of your organization,
Dr. Liz Wilson: there's pillars of success for your organization, you weave it into your
Dr. Liz Wilson: ways of working across the organization. Like I said, whether it's and it's
Dr. Liz Wilson: not just talent acquisition. I want to be really clear on for people is
Dr. Liz Wilson: when we're transforming organizations to be inclusive. I do
Dr. Liz Wilson: talent acquisition last. Right. This is, and that might
Dr. Liz Wilson: hurt some people's feelings because that's where people tend to start because it
Dr. Liz Wilson: makes sense. Right. We need to get more diverse people in the organization.
Dr. Liz Wilson: But I wholeheartedly believe that if all you do is focus on getting more
Dr. Liz Wilson: diverse people into the room, you're just giving them another
Dr. Liz Wilson: experience to have another, another opportunity to have a shit experience.
Dr. Liz Wilson: We have to get our ducks on a row first and then create an inclusive
Dr. Liz Wilson: environment systems, processes, architectures, so that when
Dr. Liz Wilson: we do then get to talent acquisition and they come in, then they can bloody
Dr. Liz Wilson: stay and thrive. Joanne. Oh, I don't know
Joanne Lockwood: if you're reading my mind or you've or I'm reading yours or whatever
Joanne Lockwood: happened. But whenever I talk about, building equity and inclusion bike
Joanne Lockwood: rides, I always talk about starting with retention in mind. We got
Joanne Lockwood: what we gotta do is sort as you say, sort out our culture, clean the
Joanne Lockwood: tank, making sure that, the organization is fit
Joanne Lockwood: for purpose because that otherwise, you just you bring people in. They go, oh, it's
Joanne Lockwood: smelly in here, and you walk out the back door. On all your investment in
Joanne Lockwood: in the term acquisition, the training, the onboarding, just go straight out the window
Joanne Lockwood: because you And that's been the problem with if you think about the
Dr. Liz Wilson: immediate in this point in time pushback politically
Dr. Liz Wilson: and socially on, and I'm going to use the acronym because that's what
Dr. Liz Wilson: people are using the DEI. So that's become woke was the
Dr. Liz Wilson: bad word. Now we've got woke and DEI, which has become its own
Dr. Liz Wilson: word. The people that are anti DEI
Dr. Liz Wilson: think that it's just affirmative action and the recruitment
Dr. Liz Wilson: process, right? That's in their mind. They're pushing back on that.
Dr. Liz Wilson: When in fact, if we're creating inclusive organizations across the whole
Dr. Liz Wilson: organization system, everyone's benefiting. And we can talk about the science bit that
Dr. Liz Wilson: I've developed to help people understand that a bit more. And that's
Dr. Liz Wilson: part of the problem. If we create an environment that everyone can thrive, that
Dr. Liz Wilson: the barriers are removed for everyone, that everyone can fulfill their potential. We wouldn't
Dr. Liz Wilson: be having this problem where people think it's about someone else and not me,
Dr. Liz Wilson: because in fact, we all have inclusion needs. I'll keep going, keep
Joanne Lockwood: going. I love it. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. I'm on a soapbox. If I go
Dr. Liz Wilson: back to don't tell my professor, it was about a year
Dr. Liz Wilson: prior to graduating my PhD. And I was, if anyone else listening has done
Dr. Liz Wilson: a PhD, you get to a point I did a part time. So it was
Dr. Liz Wilson: an eight year vlog and that that's me not swearing, but it's like,
Dr. Liz Wilson: you're stabbing yourself in the eye. You want to give up. It's a horrendous journey.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And if yours wasn't horrendous, then I'm jealous. So basically I went down a
Dr. Liz Wilson: rabbit hole of researching about inclusion because what had happened is I'd heard that
Dr. Liz Wilson: statistic at the world economic forum released, two
Dr. Liz Wilson: zero eight years to gender pay equity. Now I wasn't. Yeah. All
Dr. Liz Wilson: right. So this is a while. I don't know. Maybe it was eight, ten years
Dr. Liz Wilson: ago. I don't know. It hasn't got any better. It hasn't got, if you've read
Joanne Lockwood: the latest one, it's still no better. Great. Anyway, so let's, let's call it ten
Dr. Liz Wilson: years ago to be safe because COVID stole us our years and I don't know,
Dr. Liz Wilson: everything's blown now, but I heard the number and I'm like,
Dr. Liz Wilson: so I work in organizational change and I get hired by organizations to take
Dr. Liz Wilson: them from here to here, whatever that here to here is. And invariably
Dr. Liz Wilson: dependent on that gap between current and future state, we're looking
Dr. Liz Wilson: at eighteen months, three to five years, right? So they're the three time
Dr. Liz Wilson: average timeframes. And I'm like, but pay equity, like
Dr. Liz Wilson: from a change point of view, this is, this is me naively not knowing anything
Dr. Liz Wilson: about DEI. Right. Well, you know, I could do the data analysis
Dr. Liz Wilson: within forty eight hours and then, you know, within a week, I could pretty
Dr. Liz Wilson: much make sure all of the pays are rectified and then
Dr. Liz Wilson: give me a, I don't know, a few months to change processes and procedures
Dr. Liz Wilson: that whole system to ensure it doesn't flex back. I don't know. Then we've
Dr. Liz Wilson: got to work on behaviors to make sure people actually put into place. So maybe
Dr. Liz Wilson: eighteen months, because I'll tell you, no organization is going to pay me for
Dr. Liz Wilson: two zero eight years to fix pay equity. Figured if I
Dr. Liz Wilson: knew how I could do that, like I knew it was just made. I just,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I know exactly in my head, how I would do that. I need to look
Dr. Liz Wilson: into how the world's doing diversity equity and inclusion.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And literally that is what sparked my research
Dr. Liz Wilson: into going into why aren't we getting the change we
Dr. Liz Wilson: want? Why is it what's being done isn't working. That was my
Dr. Liz Wilson: naive mind going into it. And that's how I started my research in
Dr. Liz Wilson: inclusion. So breaks it down. Why isn't it working? Yeah. That's what I wanna
Joanne Lockwood: know. That isn't that the fundamental challenge with the anti woke DEI
Joanne Lockwood: pushback? Because it it hasn't seen that the rewards, it was promising
Joanne Lockwood: because people aren't tackling it the right way. So what's what's the headlines?
Joanne Lockwood: Why isn't it working? It's multi layered.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Which one will I start with? Let's go with just
Dr. Liz Wilson: purely because you were saying this immediate pushback at the moment. From
Dr. Liz Wilson: behavioral science point of view, when we do change, whatever
Dr. Liz Wilson: that change is in an organization. If I came into the organization
Dr. Liz Wilson: and said, you know, Joanne, everything you've been doing up until
Dr. Liz Wilson: today was wrong. I'll try to do that in a different
Dr. Liz Wilson: time. When everything you've been done, you should feel bloody
Dr. Liz Wilson: guilty for it because it's shit. You've been doing it wrong your whole
Dr. Liz Wilson: life. So from today onwards, you're going to do it my
Dr. Liz Wilson: way. And do you know what that person or
Dr. Liz Wilson: group of people or organizational teams would do for those not
Dr. Liz Wilson: watching? They stick their fingers up at you. Right? It is like the behavioral
Dr. Liz Wilson: science of it is no, I'm gonna push back that
Dr. Liz Wilson: will not affect change. So that could be anything from your,
Dr. Liz Wilson: the software you've been using to inclusive ways of
Dr. Liz Wilson: thinking and working. Right. So we can't come back at you with an activist
Dr. Liz Wilson: approach. Number one. So the change management approach hasn't been
Dr. Liz Wilson: correct. Now, what I will say and acknowledge for those
Dr. Liz Wilson: that are working in the space particularly is that I understand
Dr. Liz Wilson: to look at me. I walk into a room with a visual
Dr. Liz Wilson: privilege of presenting as white in The United States. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: let's park that. But the thing is we need to be able to see
Dr. Liz Wilson: ourselves in the inclusion solution. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: when someone comes into the room, my contemporary, my peer, that's also working
Dr. Liz Wilson: on inclusive change and they've lived their life without the
Dr. Liz Wilson: same privilege that I have as I walk into a room. There's
Dr. Liz Wilson: frustration, the barriers they're fought, like
Dr. Liz Wilson: invariably, I understand why
Dr. Liz Wilson: they are coming at it with an activist approach. So please don't
Dr. Liz Wilson: feel like I'm dismissing your emotion and lived experience,
Dr. Liz Wilson: but unfortunately we have to park aside our emotion
Dr. Liz Wilson: and approach it with a more understanding the science behind the
Dr. Liz Wilson: neuroscience as to how it can affect the change. Does that make any sense, Joanne?
Dr. Liz Wilson: I hope I'm explaining it okay. It does. I've got my own metaphor, which I'll
Joanne Lockwood: have you share in a minute. You carry on, you carry on going. That's number
Dr. Liz Wilson: one. Now in terms of seeing ourselves with any change, again,
Dr. Liz Wilson: taking inclusion out of the conversation, there has to be a WIFM. And if
Dr. Liz Wilson: anyone hasn't heard of that term before, it's an acronym for what's in it for
Dr. Liz Wilson: me. Now, when we talk about the women's
Dr. Liz Wilson: program, let's just use that. Right. Cause that was kind of the first movement,
Dr. Liz Wilson: right? Like women vote, would think suffragettes.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So if we take the women's program,
Dr. Liz Wilson: Firstly, if we're giving women more opportunity to learn
Dr. Liz Wilson: how to lead within an environment that isn't inclusive, you're actually
Dr. Liz Wilson: not changing a system. You're just teaching them how to navigate a shit
Dr. Liz Wilson: system. What we need to do is actually change the system
Dr. Liz Wilson: now to change the system in that if we use a very binary,
Dr. Liz Wilson: just to make it an easy explanation on a binary scale of gender,
Dr. Liz Wilson: or for men that need to change, not the women, but the
Dr. Liz Wilson: science will say, as soon as you say women, do you know who doesn't listen?
Dr. Liz Wilson: Because their brain is programmed. We've all only got a small amount
Dr. Liz Wilson: of program, like processing space or RAM in our brains. So we're not
Dr. Liz Wilson: going to listen because it's not relevant. There's the other problem.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Then if we take that layer, that label approach, right? So you
Dr. Liz Wilson: look at a change across an organization, and if you're doing a program on women,
Dr. Liz Wilson: which is very common, LGBTQI plus,
Dr. Liz Wilson: disability, race or ethnicity, religion, veteran,
Dr. Liz Wilson: neurodiversity, right? There's only so
Dr. Liz Wilson: much airspace. You end up overwhelming people with the
Dr. Liz Wilson: communications and ultimately you're trying to achieve the same thing.
Dr. Liz Wilson: You're all trying to create inclusion. So then the
Dr. Liz Wilson: next layer Joanne, and I feel like you're nodding because in inside we're doing
Dr. Liz Wilson: this confirmation bias of what you already know, but
Dr. Liz Wilson: it's also, then we are all more of a one label. So if you're
Dr. Liz Wilson: doing a women's program. Sure. And I'll just use myself as an example, because that's
Dr. Liz Wilson: the safest place to be. I know myself better than anyone. If you do a
Dr. Liz Wilson: women's program. Great. But what about my neurodiversity, my
Dr. Liz Wilson: ADHD, like how's that fitting into things? And then my chronic pain, which
Dr. Liz Wilson: really presents itself as a disability, like how's that layering into the women's
Dr. Liz Wilson: program? And then what about as a parent? And then when I lost my son
Dr. Liz Wilson: and the grief of that, like, how does that fit into that women's program?
Dr. Liz Wilson: Doesn't, it's not approaching people from a whole person
Dr. Liz Wilson: perspective, the intersectionality of humans.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And so that's where, once I identified all those things, all those barriers,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I then developed the eight inclusion needs of all people. And that's based
Dr. Liz Wilson: on research and practice. It works globally
Dr. Liz Wilson: across social, legal, cultural norms. Even across
Dr. Liz Wilson: Asia, I tested it in countries where it's illegal even to be
Dr. Liz Wilson: gay. So there you go. There's my big
Dr. Liz Wilson: lecture. I hope I haven't watched. I'm I'm just nodding in
Joanne Lockwood: agreement. You're singing the same tune, the same hymn seat. So, yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's, let me show you what my metaphor, and it it doesn't work in The
Joanne Lockwood: US. Unfortunately, it's more of a it's more of an English British
Joanne Lockwood: thing because the way I look at it is, I treat the people of privilege
Joanne Lockwood: as a as a as a as a stereotype, as a group, as people in
Joanne Lockwood: their castle. So we talk about the the knights of the round table, the people
Joanne Lockwood: in their castle. In in ancient England, they they were living in their
Joanne Lockwood: castle. Outside the castle, you had the peasants
Joanne Lockwood: that for various different backgrounds, and the peasants were revolting because peasants are
Joanne Lockwood: always revolting. They're not happy with things. They want something different. But the people in
Joanne Lockwood: the castle are going, it's fine in here. We've got enough fire, pigs, and sheep.
Joanne Lockwood: We're gonna keep on living here. We don't need those pests. If the peasants start
Joanne Lockwood: getting a bit bit feisty, they just start shooting them or doing what they're gonna
Joanne Lockwood: do. They don't need the peasants. They're they're firing their castle. Then one day, the
Joanne Lockwood: peasants had enough. So they all storm the castle. They've got their ladders. They've got
Joanne Lockwood: their their pitchforks. They come out the castle, People in the castle just
Joanne Lockwood: pull the drawbridge up, stand on the ramparts, shoot arrows, and pour boiling water and
Joanne Lockwood: oil over. And the peasants just end up running away feeling disillusioned.
Joanne Lockwood: Still hate the privilege, but they're still they're running away. The trouble with this thing
Joanne Lockwood: is this is what we're doing today. You as an activist, you end up running
Joanne Lockwood: up to the castle, banging your fist on the wall. We came black and blue,
Joanne Lockwood: and all privilege is doing it, pulling the drawbridge up. So that what we're gonna
Joanne Lockwood: do in the the first thing you're saying is, how do we lower that drawbridge?
Joanne Lockwood: How do we get conversation? How do we have the centrist conversations where
Joanne Lockwood: what's in it for me? We disarm. People approach the open mind where
Joanne Lockwood: they say, actually, if I involve the peasants in my conversations, I'm gonna
Joanne Lockwood: get better food. I'm gonna get better service. Yeah. Yeah. All
Joanne Lockwood: the things I've, I don't have enough resource for. I've got more people to help
Joanne Lockwood: me though. And, I love the knowledge.
Dr. Liz Wilson: I have, I'm very visual. So I was, I had the whole visuals going
Dr. Liz Wilson: with the bows and arrows with fire on the end of it. Like, I mean,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I had the whole story going inside my hand then. But that's what's happening in
Joanne Lockwood: the world, isn't it? The privileged shore themselves up in their castle, and they're scared
Joanne Lockwood: to let people in because they're worried about what's gonna happen to them. They think,
Joanne Lockwood: well, hang on a minute. If I let you have some of what I've got,
Joanne Lockwood: I won't have any left. You know, the zero sum game that we keep talking
Joanne Lockwood: about. So if that brings true things to mind for
Dr. Liz Wilson: me, where you were talking about that castle analogy, I'm sure
Dr. Liz Wilson: I don't know. I'm filtering in my mind. I'm like, no, just say
Dr. Liz Wilson: it as you see it Liz. So I was in the shower the other day,
Dr. Liz Wilson: and I know that might sound like too much information, but I don't know about
Dr. Liz Wilson: anyone else. My brain, I think has a way of you plant a
Dr. Liz Wilson: seed and then for a week or two, it does some kind
Dr. Liz Wilson: of processing when I, I don't know when it's doing it. And then I'll be
Dr. Liz Wilson: in the shower in the morning and boom, I'll have an answer or a solution
Dr. Liz Wilson: to something. But this was me one morning of the
Dr. Liz Wilson: past two weeks since the change in administration in The United States.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And it's been really rough for lots of reasons,
Dr. Liz Wilson: but I was in the shower imagining if I was being
Dr. Liz Wilson: interviewed by Fox news. Right. So I'm not,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I have really thin. Yes. I have really thin skin. Right. I'm not good with
Dr. Liz Wilson: conflict. Like, so, you know, it, it is one of my weaknesses.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So I was imagining what would happen if I was interviewed? Like, how would I
Dr. Liz Wilson: approach it knowing it would be coming at me with a conflict like conflict
Dr. Liz Wilson: approach. Anyway, I won't take you down the dialogue that I had
Dr. Liz Wilson: in my head. However, what did come to mind is that
Dr. Liz Wilson: really what I'm able to leverage is I look like
Dr. Liz Wilson: them. That this analogy where we're talking
Dr. Liz Wilson: about castles, I imagine myself, like I'm a sheep in
Dr. Liz Wilson: Wolf's clothing instead of a Wolf in chief's chief's clothing.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Right. And then me giggling to myself in the shower. Well, I'm a
Dr. Liz Wilson: sheep in Fox clothing. But I think that is a privilege that I bring into
Dr. Liz Wilson: a room that I'm quite disarming for those that perhaps
Dr. Liz Wilson: don't believe in inclusion or the DEI acronym. So that
Dr. Liz Wilson: in itself is something that I'm able to leverage. And then once that's
Dr. Liz Wilson: disarmed, I create safety around, well, they look at me and think
Dr. Liz Wilson: I'm one of them. And then when I start to disclose my
Dr. Liz Wilson: identities, they're like, so inclusion and diversity is
Dr. Liz Wilson: about more than race or a color of a skin.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Okay. So now we're just lowering that and they say, oh, I've got chronic pain
Dr. Liz Wilson: too. Or like I had a learning difficulty at school and,
Dr. Liz Wilson: you know, so it was, you know, you start to get to that point and
Dr. Liz Wilson: then I go, right, let's look at these eight inclusion needs of all people. And
Dr. Liz Wilson: when I take them through them, anyone can Google them. And,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I don't want to have do a big lecture on it, because I could talk
Dr. Liz Wilson: about it underwater for eight hours, but these eight inclusion
Dr. Liz Wilson: is everyone can see themselves in them. And when they realize they need
Dr. Liz Wilson: every single one of them for them to have them,
Dr. Liz Wilson: then everyone else can have them too. Pretty simple, really.
Joanne Lockwood: You think so? You think so? But that's that's the problem with with we're not
Joanne Lockwood: translating the mission into language that people
Joanne Lockwood: understand. And I think you talked about the activist model and I talked about the
Joanne Lockwood: the peasants revolting against the castle. We need a different strategy, and I
Joanne Lockwood: it frustrates me sometimes because I I've realized
Joanne Lockwood: over the last ten years, I suppose, you can't change
Joanne Lockwood: people with ingrained views and opinions that aren't willing to be open minded. So
Joanne Lockwood: the only place you can engage is slightly left or right of
Joanne Lockwood: center. You can make maybe influence people who are just just off kilter.
Joanne Lockwood: And then once you've got them, you can then use that as a foothold to
Joanne Lockwood: influence the next group, and then the next group, then the next group. You can't
Joanne Lockwood: go straight into the the far right or the far left or whatever whatever analogy
Joanne Lockwood: you wanna use. So we gotta try and work in the center, but I I
Joanne Lockwood: often get accused of selling out because the center
Joanne Lockwood: ground can't make change, and it's it's it's too liberal. We should be standing up
Joanne Lockwood: against fascist standing up against Marxists standing. I think my, hang on a minute. We
Joanne Lockwood: could, that sounds like pitchforks and burning bushes and things.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Kind of have to find that influence. Isn't it? I say you can't
Dr. Liz Wilson: put me at 50 years old into a room for one hour
Dr. Liz Wilson: and train my beliefs out of me. It's never going to happen. So
Dr. Liz Wilson: if we think a training course is going to change someone's beliefs,
Dr. Liz Wilson: and in fact, you shouldn't be trying to change people's beliefs. You just shouldn't. Right.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So, but if we lay over some education and understanding, find the what's in it
Dr. Liz Wilson: for me for inclusion, if they want it for themselves, they're going to give it,
Dr. Liz Wilson: will they by default have to give it to others, under this framework, we put
Dr. Liz Wilson: systems and architectures in place and I'm just, it comes to mind, which might be
Dr. Liz Wilson: worth sharing in case anyone hasn't heard of the behavioral
Dr. Liz Wilson: economics study. That was basically about buffets,
Dr. Liz Wilson: you know, the all you can eat style. And it was a controlled study of
Dr. Liz Wilson: a conference group over two days. And on the first day
Dr. Liz Wilson: they put all the unhealthy food first and then all of the salads and healthy
Dr. Liz Wilson: stuff second. And people filled their plates with all the unhealthy stuff first. And
Dr. Liz Wilson: when they got to the end, a little bit of green stuff on the side.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Then the next day they flipped the order of the food and they forgot the
Dr. Liz Wilson: healthy stuff first. And then the unhealthy stuff. I'm not good
Dr. Liz Wilson: at remembering exact statistics. One of my other weaknesses,
Dr. Liz Wilson: but the calorie consumption change just from that
Dr. Liz Wilson: economics or that systems and architectures change was
Dr. Liz Wilson: astronomical. Okay. You can Google it, go find the paper
Dr. Liz Wilson: it's then that's what we're talking about here. We need to put systems in
Dr. Liz Wilson: place that create inclusive action. Even if you don't realize you're doing
Dr. Liz Wilson: it, you just do it because that's part of the process. We've got
Dr. Liz Wilson: to make it the easiest option, not the add on or afterthought.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So that's what I do with my clients. So globally, I've been doing this now
Dr. Liz Wilson: for ten years, I think, where we apply the inclusion
Dr. Liz Wilson: needs across the whole organizational system.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And what I admitted to say before Joanne, I wanted to make it really clear
Dr. Liz Wilson: when I mentioned the space, space, the inclusion needs of all
Dr. Liz Wilson: people framework, I've made that complete open access.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So that wouldn't be inclusive otherwise. You can Google it,
Dr. Liz Wilson: find the actual papers or Google it. And you'll find some explainer videos that
Dr. Liz Wilson: I've got there. You can take that framework and use it and apply it in
Dr. Liz Wilson: your work and creating inclusion at a team level, at a
Dr. Liz Wilson: systems level for customers. I mean, it works across
Dr. Liz Wilson: government decision making in the, in law and in education. Like it's
Dr. Liz Wilson: completely applicable across everything.
Joanne Lockwood: I'll put the links in the show notes. So thank you. Yeah. Well, I'll have
Joanne Lockwood: a dive into that later myself. So there you go. I don't know. I was,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I, did I go up on a tangent? I kinda remember now. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I've I've I've followed you and I'm I can't remember what the start line was.
Joanne Lockwood: So Liz, you've, your accent, we were chatting the agreement before we went
Joanne Lockwood: live. You're in The States. Is it Denver, Colorado right now? Yeah.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Correct. Yes. So, yeah, Canyon sort of, so
Dr. Liz Wilson: Rocky Mountains. So you hear of Dale and Breckenridge
Dr. Liz Wilson: and Aspen, they kind of like an hour or two hours away. I'm pointing
Dr. Liz Wilson: with my arm because that walks me out my window in that direction.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And so, yeah, we moved here three years ago and really it was for my
Dr. Liz Wilson: work and the purpose, you know, when we started off by saying the beginning,
Dr. Liz Wilson: you know, through adversity, which we haven't really tapped into just yet,
Dr. Liz Wilson: but through adversity, on a mission to create a world where everyone can
Dr. Liz Wilson: thrive. And my original research and
Dr. Liz Wilson: practice was based on Kimberle Crenshaw's research on intersectionality.
Dr. Liz Wilson: I felt from little old Australia while I was working right
Dr. Liz Wilson: across the Asia Pacific region. A lot of the times
Dr. Liz Wilson: I was working with organizations that had headquartered organizations in The
Dr. Liz Wilson: United States. And I figured if I'm gonna make a bigger impact, I've gotta move
Dr. Liz Wilson: here. And so that's why I'm here. Yeah. It's a
Dr. Liz Wilson: new change. Because
Joanne Lockwood: Australia, Australia, New Zealand has its own challenge with the
Joanne Lockwood: indigenous Aboriginal first first nation people and also Pacific
Joanne Lockwood: Islanders. So it's a it's a it's a challenging space as well. In fact, it's
Joanne Lockwood: more intersectionally diverse from a racial perspective than anywhere else in the world, I
Joanne Lockwood: guess, as well, isn't it? Look, New Zealand, if we were to use case
Dr. Liz Wilson: studies on inclusion for indigenous populations, New Zealand have nailed that
Dr. Liz Wilson: one. They're doing a great job, of
Dr. Liz Wilson: including and respecting their indigenous population.
Dr. Liz Wilson: You know, Australia is on its path. My best
Dr. Liz Wilson: friend is Aboriginal and she's a CEO of an indigenous organization.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And, of forty years, don't tell anyone that we've been friends for forty years.
Dr. Liz Wilson: It really adds years to our lifetime. Doesn't it? So she it's, I mean,
Dr. Liz Wilson: this is going down a rabbit hole, but she came and visited
Dr. Liz Wilson: me the last year or maybe the year before Australia had a vote on a
Dr. Liz Wilson: referendum since, you're coming from a Commonwealth country as well. You know what a
Dr. Liz Wilson: referendum is, but it's just, it's not, you're not voting for a politician for those
Dr. Liz Wilson: that are listening outside of Commonwealth country, you're voting for a decision. So you're just
Dr. Liz Wilson: basically walking into a booth and voting yes or no on something. And this
Dr. Liz Wilson: was for something. I think they, the nickname for, and I was
Dr. Liz Wilson: here while it was happening. So I'm not really up on the whole social
Dr. Liz Wilson: discussion around it, but it was in principle for the
Dr. Liz Wilson: indigenous population to have a voice when the government was making
Dr. Liz Wilson: decisions that impact the indigenous population. And so it
Dr. Liz Wilson: went to the popular vote for a yes and no.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And my best friend was here when, the announcement was
Dr. Liz Wilson: made that Australia voted no.
Dr. Liz Wilson: That no. Our indigenous population should not have a
Dr. Liz Wilson: voice when decisions are being made that impact them. And I'm
Dr. Liz Wilson: paraphrasing here. Right. But that's really disappointing
Dr. Liz Wilson: in 2020. Well, that was 2023, I think.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Right. But far out, there's still so far to go
Dr. Liz Wilson: and look, intersectionality, the indigenous population in Australia
Dr. Liz Wilson: have that laid experience of being both the indigenous
Dr. Liz Wilson: population where genocide occurred. So So if we compare them to United
Dr. Liz Wilson: States, that would be similar to the indigenous populations here.
Dr. Liz Wilson: However, they're also laid with the black identity
Dr. Liz Wilson: of which, the, black or African Americans
Dr. Liz Wilson: experience here too. So that they have an extra layer. Joanne, you know, that I
Dr. Liz Wilson: could talk about all of them to stop forever, but across
Dr. Liz Wilson: what I found most interesting though, And I will say when I
Dr. Liz Wilson: was developing the eight inclusion needs, working,
Dr. Liz Wilson: presenting it into the indigenous population, into Aboriginal Australians,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I was super nervous. I was like, I need, if this doesn't work
Dr. Liz Wilson: with them, this isn't going to work globally. And so I, you
Dr. Liz Wilson: know, went with trepidation. Absolutely. When you
Dr. Liz Wilson: start delivering the inclusion needs, there's a bit of resistance. You can
Dr. Liz Wilson: see it physically. And there are other questions until you get to the end, they
Dr. Liz Wilson: realize that they are more than just indigenous.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And once, once they realize there's more to that, they go, yes,
Dr. Liz Wilson: we can use this to shape policy. You
Dr. Liz Wilson: know, so then when you start then working your way up
Dr. Liz Wilson: through Asia and other countries where really
Dr. Liz Wilson: we're talking about it's illegal to be people.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Like you can't even legally be yourself and it
Dr. Liz Wilson: becomes, you can't actually talk about creating an inclusive
Dr. Liz Wilson: environment by using the words. So you can't say, yay,
Dr. Liz Wilson: or let's just use that to see, I could use LGBTQI plus or any of
Dr. Liz Wilson: those terms or queer. You can't use those terms because it's illegal to be
Dr. Liz Wilson: that. So when we're able then to use the inclusion needs, we
Dr. Liz Wilson: are talking about whole people and that whole inclusion needs rather
Dr. Liz Wilson: than diving into one specific, specific label as
Dr. Liz Wilson: well. So, yeah, it's an interesting
Dr. Liz Wilson: space and where we then flick back to The United States.
Dr. Liz Wilson: I've worked with global organizations, very
Dr. Liz Wilson: famous ones, and I have worked with them to create their
Dr. Liz Wilson: five year inclusion strategy, spend several days with them. Like
Dr. Liz Wilson: I did a lot of homework and data analysis and stuff, and then do some
Dr. Liz Wilson: in person stuff. Then I go lock myself in a room and do analysis and
Dr. Liz Wilson: then come back and we do some more co creation work. And I
Dr. Liz Wilson: have got to the end of multi days working with
Dr. Liz Wilson: chief diversity officers, their strategy teams, their C suite.
Dr. Liz Wilson: We've developed it. They've been part of it. And I literally walked
Dr. Liz Wilson: out of the room on this particular client and a very senior person in that
Dr. Liz Wilson: room said, so it can't just be about race. Five
Dr. Liz Wilson: days of working with them in person. And I'd been doing work with them for
Dr. Liz Wilson: a long time. And that's the barrier that I'm facing here in
Dr. Liz Wilson: The United States is that in a lot of people's minds, inclusion is
Dr. Liz Wilson: only about the color of your skin. So very interesting. All
Joanne Lockwood: your fairness, if you look at what's going on at the moment is calorie, skin
Joanne Lockwood: and queerness. It seems to be the, the big pushback at the moment is
Joanne Lockwood: people aren't focusing yet on neurodiversity or
Joanne Lockwood: disability. That's that's kind of the acceptable side of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, isn't it? It's the racial and sociality.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Yeah. The politicization of it where we've got, because
Dr. Liz Wilson: in my experience in Australia, actually in the rest of
Dr. Liz Wilson: the world, human rights, isn't politicized.
Dr. Liz Wilson: He, that was actually one of the biggest culture shocks for me, really a big
Dr. Liz Wilson: jarring how human rights is politicized. And, there is
Dr. Liz Wilson: this, I would say they've taken race
Dr. Liz Wilson: and trans. So not even LGBTQI plus
Dr. Liz Wilson: right? Like the politicization of it is the far right
Dr. Liz Wilson: taking, one identity out of that community and
Dr. Liz Wilson: black. And then, I don't know, the black fear is
Dr. Liz Wilson: about fighting the inequity of affirmative action,
Dr. Liz Wilson: which obviously impacts women as well. And then the trans bit is obviously
Dr. Liz Wilson: attacking people's healthcare needs. Like it's just, and
Dr. Liz Wilson: then fear mongering. Oh, I'm just
Dr. Liz Wilson: anyway, I'm sorry, Joanne. Now, now I start to get my ADHD brain starts
Dr. Liz Wilson: to go off in all tangents and getting all emotional about how
Dr. Liz Wilson: horrid the last couple of weeks have been for my friends
Dr. Liz Wilson: who are trans.
Dr. Liz Wilson: I'm sorry. I'll lose my track. Yeah. No. No. You're you're not the first guest
Joanne Lockwood: I've had on the show. Some just before I I was I had I was
Joanne Lockwood: with a an American lady on the day of the election, and by the
Joanne Lockwood: she was running a training course. And by the end of the day, she was
Joanne Lockwood: head hand head of her hands, and she was gonna have the worst day of
Joanne Lockwood: my life sort of thing. And it was, and I've interviewed other people since. And
Joanne Lockwood: it it's it's one of these. We had a similar we had a
Joanne Lockwood: referendum. I don't know if you've heard of this, about Brexit
Joanne Lockwood: leaving the European Union back in, I think, 2016 or whatever it was. It
Joanne Lockwood: just highlights the idea of group think and affinity and those sort of things, you
Joanne Lockwood: know, because if you're on one side of the fence, you've actually got no idea
Joanne Lockwood: how people on the other side of the fence can even believe what they're hearing.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, probably the same as your, story about the the indigenous
Joanne Lockwood: vote in in Australia. How can anybody not
Joanne Lockwood: think this is a good idea? And then the vote goes against you. You think,
Joanne Lockwood: well, clearly, the majority of the population do think it's a bad idea.
Joanne Lockwood: So why did I how did I miss that? That's that's part of the problem
Joanne Lockwood: I've had is Yes. Whatever happens in The
Joanne Lockwood: US, I have to look at myself and say, well,
Joanne Lockwood: 73 or million people voted for that
Joanne Lockwood: person and they got more votes. So
Joanne Lockwood: who who's wrong? Is it me? Should I question
Joanne Lockwood: myself? So it's been as of
Dr. Liz Wilson: recording today, so clearly we'll go live
Dr. Liz Wilson: with this at a different time, but it's been two weeks and one day
Dr. Liz Wilson: since the new administration came in. So let's just put this in a time context.
Dr. Liz Wilson: In week one, immediately following I had three federal
Dr. Liz Wilson: contracts cancel their work with me. Obviously I won't name
Dr. Liz Wilson: them, but one of them in particular, when they,
Dr. Liz Wilson: they scheduled the call. I just saw the zoom meetings going, right. They had my
Dr. Liz Wilson: calendar. And I saw the zoom meetings go in and I knew what they were
Dr. Liz Wilson: going to be. Why else are they special meetings that week? And it
Dr. Liz Wilson: was the Friday and I get on the call with them and there's two of
Dr. Liz Wilson: them. And they're not diversity equity or inclusion practitioners. They
Dr. Liz Wilson: are people that lead businesses
Dr. Liz Wilson: or government departments. The one of them
Dr. Liz Wilson: was actually hearing, as she was telling me that
Dr. Liz Wilson: we have to stop the work. We have to cancel it. And I found
Dr. Liz Wilson: myself consoling them. But to the point
Dr. Liz Wilson: I was only due to deliver the work two weeks later. Right. So it would
Dr. Liz Wilson: have been this next week or this week that I would have been delivering the
Dr. Liz Wilson: work. And they said, we don't even know how we're going to be able to
Dr. Liz Wilson: pay you for the work that you've done so far, because we don't know if
Dr. Liz Wilson: we'll be able to get that invoice paid. Right. So that was crushing around me
Dr. Liz Wilson: on that Friday. That following weekend was my
Dr. Liz Wilson: son's anniversary of his death, two weeks, two years after his
Dr. Liz Wilson: death. So I have that compounding as well. Right. So your resilience is
Dr. Liz Wilson: lowered already. I've got all of that. Then last
Dr. Liz Wilson: week, two of my smaller organizations, but
Dr. Liz Wilson: still in, in The US small organizations have thousands of employees
Dr. Liz Wilson: have postponed their inclusion work just because they just
Dr. Liz Wilson: want to need to find their feet and where they sit with everything.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And I'm like, this ripple effect, isn't just, you
Dr. Liz Wilson: know, the stopping in federal departments, small businesses. So in my
Dr. Liz Wilson: example, might not get paid for work that they've they've done.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And this is just on the GI stuff, right?
Dr. Liz Wilson: These two weeks I've had such a significant flight response.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And I really do mean that, you know, there's this fight or flight. No, I
Dr. Liz Wilson: really, I was Googling because we have a dog.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And my husband's English, just to listen as how do I move
Dr. Liz Wilson: my dog to The UK with us? We've decided we will get on the
Dr. Liz Wilson: Queen Mary because he can come with us on the Queen Mary and we can
Dr. Liz Wilson: ship everything else. Right. So I already know how we'll do it. But
Dr. Liz Wilson: then on self reflection, I have
Dr. Liz Wilson: had a bit of pity party for myself. Not because it's bad
Dr. Liz Wilson: for me. I mean, it's because of my mission for global change.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Right. And then I realized I have this privilege of not having
Dr. Liz Wilson: an employer. I don't have a brand I had to tow the party line for.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So I have decided to make a little bit more controversial noise.
Dr. Liz Wilson: I mean, I already told you that I have a thin skin, so I haven't
Dr. Liz Wilson: gone really bold, but I have been a little more honest about some of the
Dr. Liz Wilson: issues that we're facing. So anyway, I'm sharing those on my
Dr. Liz Wilson: LinkedIn. And if anyone wants to go see those feel free to, but,
Dr. Liz Wilson: Joanna, I want to share one observation about the far right.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And, when I started the blog, the
Dr. Liz Wilson: trolls, they came out from everywhere. Right. And the trolls will
Dr. Liz Wilson: either go publicly or in your comments or in straight into your message box.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Now I figure if you're brave enough to put your
Dr. Liz Wilson: comments publicly on my post, then we should have a public
Dr. Liz Wilson: conversation about it. So I went to the trouble of looking
Dr. Liz Wilson: up who their employer was on their profile. And then I went to see if
Dr. Liz Wilson: their organization had the values of inclusion and had it plastered on their
Dr. Liz Wilson: website. So then I would come back to the message that they'd left and go.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So I just, I'm curious really just out of curiosity, I can see your
Dr. Liz Wilson: organization says this about diversity inclusion on their web.
Dr. Liz Wilson: How does it work for you working in an organization when your values don't align
Dr. Liz Wilson: with your organization? And of course I tagged their organization as well.
Dr. Liz Wilson: No trolls have commented on a single post since.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So maybe I've achieved something. They're still dropping into my inbox
Dr. Liz Wilson: though, unfortunately. I've said that once and someone was trying
Joanne Lockwood: to troll me about something and, I got a warning from LinkedIn because
Joanne Lockwood: they'd accused me of bullying them by exposing their views to their
Joanne Lockwood: employer. So they, tend not to take that approach anymore because, as I say, I've
Joanne Lockwood: been reported to sabotage. Well, you could argue it and I cannot not
Dr. Liz Wilson: you. They could argue it. And I would say, no, I haven't take I
Dr. Liz Wilson: haven't screenshotted people's private messages in LinkedIn. You
Dr. Liz Wilson: had a public conversation with me. I'm having a public one back with you.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Like, oh, yeah. Okay. So they don't like being called out is
Joanne Lockwood: is is what you're saying. People people wanna hide with anonymity or believe the
Joanne Lockwood: conversation they're having. They've blinkered. They don't they don't
Joanne Lockwood: see what they're doing. And I I see that a lot. And as a transgender
Joanne Lockwood: woman, I get a lot of, hate mail, hate comments
Joanne Lockwood: by by YouTube as a of a badge of honor sometimes. What people
Joanne Lockwood: comment on? Joanne, the YouTube thing, because I've been putting
Dr. Liz Wilson: these same vlogs on YouTube. So my podcast the last two years has been
Dr. Liz Wilson: on YouTube. And I wanna come back to that for a second where you're saying
Dr. Liz Wilson: there. And people are much braver on YouTube because it's way more anonymous
Dr. Liz Wilson: on their, on their hatred comments. You can't, you don't really know who they are.
Dr. Liz Wilson: But out of my, all my seasons, all the episodes
Dr. Liz Wilson: across my seasons, I think there's like 50 or so episodes. And all I do
Dr. Liz Wilson: is interview people that are different to me so I can learn how to better
Dr. Liz Wilson: meet their inclusion needs. Now, one of my friends here in The United
Dr. Liz Wilson: States, her daughter is trans. And so we had two
Dr. Liz Wilson: episodes, one with Olivia, the mother, talking about her
Dr. Liz Wilson: experience as a parent of, a trans teen who
Dr. Liz Wilson: is transitioning. And then the second interview was with their
Dr. Liz Wilson: child. And so those episodes have a
Dr. Liz Wilson: lot of hits and, it's really interesting. There's a lot of hate
Dr. Liz Wilson: on it, but I had to on the teens episode, so I feel it's okay.
Dr. Liz Wilson: I think I'll leave it because Olivia, the parent is a grown
Dr. Liz Wilson: up. And so whatever commentary is made there, we can deal
Dr. Liz Wilson: with, but I had to delete and block comments on
Dr. Liz Wilson: the Trans Teens episode because the comments were horrid.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So I'm sorry, Joanne, for the population that are assholes at
Dr. Liz Wilson: anything that they write or more content. I think we
Joanne Lockwood: said earlier, either on air or or before that,
Joanne Lockwood: all engagement is boost boosts engagement. It's a so I I
Joanne Lockwood: think I do a lot of these Fox News type interviews, but they're on a
Joanne Lockwood: channel in The UK called GB News. And one of their shorts
Joanne Lockwood: of me went, as far as I'm concerned, viral by my standards, at
Joanne Lockwood: 1,600,000 views and 50,000 comments and reactions and loads
Joanne Lockwood: of shares. So I just thought, well, I I I looked at the
Joanne Lockwood: maths and thought, hang hang on a minute. It's 1,500,000 views or 1,600,000
Joanne Lockwood: views. It's got something like, I don't know, four or 5,000
Joanne Lockwood: comments, and all the comments are toxic. But it's got something like 40 or
Joanne Lockwood: 50,000 likes. So I'm assuming that most people who like it Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Were in favor and the people who commented, the ratio of likes to
Joanne Lockwood: comment was actually the other way around. I I very rarely delete comments. I
Joanne Lockwood: leave them I leave them for for educational purposes. I agree. Because
Dr. Liz Wilson: as soon as people say, oh, no. There's no real problem. It means they actually
Dr. Liz Wilson: don't have the choice. And that's a good point. But what I was gonna say
Dr. Liz Wilson: is one of the giggles I have to myself, it's just an internal giggle that
Dr. Liz Wilson: we'll share outside with everybody else right now, is that these
Dr. Liz Wilson: anti trans people, the more they comment on trans
Dr. Liz Wilson: content, the algorithm provides them with more trans
Dr. Liz Wilson: content. So I'm like, I giggled because I'm like, you're doing it to
Dr. Liz Wilson: yourself. You're you're being anti trans, but you're getting more trans content
Dr. Liz Wilson: because you're commenting on trans content. I think it's brilliant.
Dr. Liz Wilson: If I mean, algorithms have a lot of things wrong with them, but that one
Dr. Liz Wilson: on social media, I think, is fabulous. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And, yeah, we just need to educate people. Just jog on by, scroll on. You
Joanne Lockwood: know, you don't need to stop and get angry for Yeah. Well, that's what what
Joanne Lockwood: you wanna do. Right. I mean, a lot of them are bots and and trolls
Joanne Lockwood: and things like this that are are not real people or they're they're just automation.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, it's hard to tell what the, because it the same comments are
Joanne Lockwood: echoed again and again and again. And it's either they're so ingrained in their
Joanne Lockwood: ideology and thinking that they've got this playbook that that's how they
Joanne Lockwood: wanna comment or or they are, as I say, bots or trolls that
Joanne Lockwood: that will automate, say, I don't. If people are LinkedIn
Dr. Liz Wilson: users and they do, you can follow a bit of a trail that when you
Dr. Liz Wilson: see someone post a hate comment, and you go onto
Dr. Liz Wilson: their profile and you see their most recent activity, you just see a whole
Dr. Liz Wilson: consistency of hate. So that's all they do. They just go on there
Dr. Liz Wilson: and post the, rhetoric that, you know,
Dr. Liz Wilson: it's hurtful and not helpful. Yeah. I, I dunno if, I dunno if I should
Joanne Lockwood: be puzzled or whatever it is. I I don't get much hate on
Joanne Lockwood: LinkedIn. I don't know what it is. Right. I suppose I I approach
Joanne Lockwood: LinkedIn with a very inclusion, balanced sort of
Joanne Lockwood: perspective. I don't I don't go for the activist stance. I go for the, I
Joanne Lockwood: speak from the eye. As you said earlier, you know, if I speak from my
Joanne Lockwood: from my message, I can always speak my own truth. So I I
Joanne Lockwood: don't tend to post things that are kind of worthy of
Joanne Lockwood: fee or if they are, people don't wanna be called out on it
Joanne Lockwood: because, you know, I've got, what, 27 and a half thousand followers is
Joanne Lockwood: enough to most of the people these people you're talking about have got five,
Joanne Lockwood: six hundred or less than a thousand followers. Their amplification
Joanne Lockwood: is, is, yeah, they'll be exposed a lot wider. They're no longer speaking
Joanne Lockwood: in the dark, if you like. And so it's, it's interesting how you say, I
Dr. Liz Wilson: also held myself to a standard where
Dr. Liz Wilson: I didn't want to step into any controversy. I wanted to make sure that
Dr. Liz Wilson: as a professional leading a very different way of thinking
Dr. Liz Wilson: around inclusion and transformation in organizations, I just wanted to protect
Dr. Liz Wilson: that to prevent any reason that an organization wouldn't
Dr. Liz Wilson: hire me. And it really has only been over these last two weeks where I
Dr. Liz Wilson: went, yeah, I think you need to make a bit more noise because there are
Dr. Liz Wilson: some people that can't. So there you go. I've I've said
Joanne Lockwood: this a number of times on other interviews on various various times that I go
Joanne Lockwood: for the, the Marmite approach. If you've not heard of Marmite, then Australia's
Joanne Lockwood: Vegemite or whatever. It's kind of Marmite's better than Vegemite. I will, I will
Dr. Liz Wilson: admit it. Yeah. So it it's you gotta
Joanne Lockwood: polarize your audience. You know, if you gotta you gotta mean something and say something.
Joanne Lockwood: So I'm a great believer in that. You know, if I polarize the audience, at
Joanne Lockwood: least people who love me will come and talk to me. People who don't wanna
Joanne Lockwood: deal with me, they, they keep away, which is brilliant. So I didn't have to
Joanne Lockwood: throw in my followers down. As any Vegemite or Marmite,
Dr. Liz Wilson: consumer will agree. It's about the quantity of Marmite
Dr. Liz Wilson: balanced with the amount of melted butter on the piece of toast. Right.
Dr. Liz Wilson: It's to be very clear. So if it's about the
Dr. Liz Wilson: recipe and how we present it, maybe that's part of the
Dr. Liz Wilson: another analogy for you as with your castle analogy.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So, yeah. So you're, I'm delivering Marmite, the acceptable
Joanne Lockwood: taste of Marmite is what you're saying, rather than just being the raw.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Let's go, oh, I've tried veggie. I took a spoonful of it. I went, oh
Dr. Liz Wilson: my God, that's disgusting. You don't eat it like peanut butter.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Right. It's a scraping over copious amounts
Dr. Liz Wilson: of melted butter on a hot toast. If we deliver inclusion like
Dr. Liz Wilson: that, then everyone will eat it. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not a big Marmite fan. I do eat something called twiglets. I don't know
Joanne Lockwood: if you have twiglets, but they're they're basically little Christmas snacks
Joanne Lockwood: that are coated in Marmite. So twiglets, I can I can just keep eating these?
Joanne Lockwood: It's just saying it's how it's delivered. It's delivered in a package that is
Joanne Lockwood: thin and tangy, not capturing your entire mouth. Yeah. So I can I
Joanne Lockwood: can do it? You're in the face. So there we go. We've just
Dr. Liz Wilson: come up with a new analogy on how we deliver culture change
Dr. Liz Wilson: on inclusion. So you have to bread it thinly enough
Joanne Lockwood: so people still get the taste of the butter and the bread without overpowering them
Joanne Lockwood: with the the full veggie bite mom might experience, isn't it what we're saying? Yeah.
Dr. Liz Wilson: That's gross on a teaspoon. Yeah. Force feed it like, like
Joanne Lockwood: some sort of chartered medicine that we get used to with our parents.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely. So this year, you were saying earlier that, you've had a few
Joanne Lockwood: traumas in your life and something you put the show notes was, hey, you got
Joanne Lockwood: expelled in your eight. It's great. Do you wanna Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: sure. Expand on when you were a bad girl? No,
Dr. Liz Wilson: very strange. So I went to a little, little tiny Catholic primary
Dr. Liz Wilson: school, K to six. I didn't realize it, but I was
Dr. Liz Wilson: a smart kid. I didn't know that. And, I did some exams
Dr. Liz Wilson: and got into a, what we call selective schools, here in
Dr. Liz Wilson: Australia. And, there's three of them in Sydney. They're girls schools. They're public schools
Dr. Liz Wilson: though, as in Australian, you call public schools a different thing over in the,
Dr. Liz Wilson: in The UK. But anyway, they're the ones that don't cost any money to go
Dr. Liz Wilson: to. Okay. So, date school, a date school. There we go.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So, right. So it's just all girls selective. So everyone was,
Dr. Liz Wilson: had, had to pass exams to get in. And turns out I didn't feel
Dr. Liz Wilson: very smart at all there. The culture wasn't great for me at all.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And as soon as teachers were telling me I was bad at things, I believed
Dr. Liz Wilson: them. So I'm very heavily influenced by my external environment. Tell me I'm
Dr. Liz Wilson: shit at something. I'll believe you. I'm not one of those I'll prove you wrong.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Wish I was. And so the, layer over that in the
Dr. Liz Wilson: 1980s, girls didn't have ADHD.
Dr. Liz Wilson: There was no such thing. Only boys did because it was presented in a certain
Dr. Liz Wilson: way, you know, swinging on chairs and throwing shit in classrooms.
Dr. Liz Wilson: That wasn't me. Like I was, I wanted people to like me. So I
Dr. Liz Wilson: wanted, so I didn't present the way someone with ADD or
Dr. Liz Wilson: ADHD would have. I got diagnosed in my forties. It
Dr. Liz Wilson: makes a whole heap of sense why I rebelled in the classroom. Okay. I was
Dr. Liz Wilson: disruptive, chatty. And then I just,
Dr. Liz Wilson: the way they taught was auditory and I'm not, I'm not an auditory
Dr. Liz Wilson: learner. Like there's a whole heap of compounding effects. What I got expelled for,
Dr. Liz Wilson: should we tell people, Joanne? Oh, just between you and me, forget to say I
Joanne Lockwood: want to listen, just go for it. No, I actually literally got expelled for something
Dr. Liz Wilson: I didn't do. And people go, oh yeah, sure. I think no, no, no. True
Dr. Liz Wilson: story. 03:12 train. Right. Every afternoon, the bell
Dr. Liz Wilson: would go at three. If you ran really quickly to the station, you could get
Dr. Liz Wilson: on the 03:12 train. Me and five of my friends
Dr. Liz Wilson: bolted to the station to get the 03:12 train. We're on Platform
Dr. Liz Wilson: 2. So now seems like it's late. You hear the
Dr. Liz Wilson: announcement over the overhead speaker, you know, really unclearly, but
Dr. Liz Wilson: the three twelve has been canceled. The three eighteen will be coming in on
Dr. Liz Wilson: Platform 4 next. Four of my friends decided to jump
Dr. Liz Wilson: down Mission Impossible style, run across the tracks up onto
Dr. Liz Wilson: Platform 4. And I'm like, excuse my
Dr. Liz Wilson: language, fuck that. So I've walked around because I'm
Dr. Liz Wilson: not, none of a death wish. So I walk around.
Dr. Liz Wilson: These girls were getting in trouble from our school captain and their names are getting
Dr. Liz Wilson: taken down. And I'm like, well, for the first time ever, this it's not me
Dr. Liz Wilson: getting in trouble. So I'm safe here. Two days later, I get called into
Dr. Liz Wilson: the principal's office. Now, when you're naughty as I was,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I was regularly in the vice principal's office because he's the person that does
Dr. Liz Wilson: the discipline. Going to the principal's office was net. You
Dr. Liz Wilson: knew it was next level. And when I went into that room, my mum was
Dr. Liz Wilson: in there and now I'm like, here, this is really bad. And I'm like, I
Dr. Liz Wilson: didn't even know what I've done at this point. It turns out that those girls
Dr. Liz Wilson: completely colluded, threw me under the bus all the time,
Dr. Liz Wilson: you know, that analogy and said, I told them to do
Dr. Liz Wilson: it, tell them to do it. Why would I tell people to do something I
Dr. Liz Wilson: wouldn't do myself, but because of who I had been and the
Dr. Liz Wilson: behaviors that I demonstrated prior, I had been put in
Dr. Liz Wilson: a box and they didn't believe me. And so
Dr. Liz Wilson: I was expelled. So that's the expulsion
Dr. Liz Wilson: story. But if we translate that across to sure, how does
Dr. Liz Wilson: someone that got expelled in when they're 13 years old, who was
Dr. Liz Wilson: failing everything? Cause I'd given up once I was behind on stuff, I just went,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I'm not, I'm not going to bother. Then my mum
Dr. Liz Wilson: found a new school for me to go to. And I swear to you,
Dr. Liz Wilson: Joanne, it was on the first day. You're still nervous. You're in front of, this
Dr. Liz Wilson: is a big school. So each grade had about 200 kids in it.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So at the beginning of grade nine, standing there at the front of the
Dr. Liz Wilson: whole view and, I had the coordinator or
Dr. Liz Wilson: whomever it was said, okay, we have a new student joining us
Dr. Liz Wilson: this year. Elizabeth. She comes from this
Dr. Liz Wilson: school. So we expect great things from her because
Dr. Liz Wilson: everyone knows it's a selective school. And I swear to you, I'm looking I'm looking
Dr. Liz Wilson: over my shoulder. Is there another Elizabeth? Because no one expects
Dr. Liz Wilson: great things from me. Well, at least they haven't for the last two years.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And literally my life changed within weeks. I had teachers giving
Dr. Liz Wilson: me great feedback and telling me I was doing a great job. And then you
Dr. Liz Wilson: know what happened? Just, I got better and better and better and better
Dr. Liz Wilson: until I was a great student. I covertly might've been
Dr. Liz Wilson: a little bit rebellious, but nothing too bad after that.
Joanne Lockwood: Your imposter syndrome is reinforced by,
Joanne Lockwood: by people telling you you're, you're not good. So you don't, you don't,
Joanne Lockwood: as you say, you don't fight back. You just go, oh no, I can't I'm
Joanne Lockwood: rubbish. I'm rubbish. It was just like a death spiral from. And I've
Dr. Liz Wilson: learned of, of over the last ten years through this
Dr. Liz Wilson: ADHD diagnosis is that's part of that when you get
Dr. Liz Wilson: criticism that you're hypersensitive to it. So you just don't
Dr. Liz Wilson: have the, the normal resilience that someone else would have to criticism.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Makes a whole percent. I mean, or anyway, like, ah, there's just so much stuff
Dr. Liz Wilson: that when you, like, it might seem like nothing. I'm still the same
Dr. Liz Wilson: person with ADHD, but once you get, and I, people call it, I don't
Dr. Liz Wilson: like to call it a label, but once you get to understanding something more about
Dr. Liz Wilson: yourself, you go, that is why I don't feel so bad about myself now
Dr. Liz Wilson: because I know what is happening. And in fact, it makes it easier.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Say for instance, my husband who is, on autism
Dr. Liz Wilson: spectrum and has OCD and a whole bunch of other things. We talk about what,
Dr. Liz Wilson: what else is wrong with us in this, in this house? But, because we're
Dr. Liz Wilson: so different, but he understands why this is
Dr. Liz Wilson: happening for me now. It makes it so much easier because he used to think
Dr. Liz Wilson: I would do things out of spite. Like I'll give you a really good
Dr. Liz Wilson: example. Let's say he emptied all the little small bins in the
Dr. Liz Wilson: rooms on bin day, rubbish collection day. And then he
Dr. Liz Wilson: would leave the empty one, this in my office at the
Dr. Liz Wilson: door for me to put back it back in under my desk.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And then I'd be back at my computer working and the bin
Dr. Liz Wilson: would still be at the door. He goes, he thought I was doing it to
Dr. Liz Wilson: spy him. I went, no, I didn't see it. He goes, you had to step
Dr. Liz Wilson: over it. I go, didn't see it. My task was to
Dr. Liz Wilson: get to my computer and work. And now he knows it's not me going,
Dr. Liz Wilson: you didn't put my bin under my desk. It was me just, I just didn't
Dr. Liz Wilson: see it. So anyway, there's a bit about that. I part of my identity,
Dr. Liz Wilson: which is also a superpower because I can sit at my desk for eight
Dr. Liz Wilson: hours straight and forget to eat and go to the toilet.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So there is some great benefits to it as well. I love that. I love
Joanne Lockwood: that. I suspect that I have some tendencies and I've never
Joanne Lockwood: bothered exploring it. Because by the time I'd realized it, I was
Joanne Lockwood: invested in my transgender identity. I didn't need another diagnosis for anything else.
Joanne Lockwood: So I I just mixed the whole thing up, and I find I kind of
Joanne Lockwood: understand myself now that, not the examples you give, I
Joanne Lockwood: also would resonate with and, hyperfocus,
Joanne Lockwood: get stuck into things. And also I'm a person I'm either a
Joanne Lockwood: % in or a % out. If I'm not interested, if
Joanne Lockwood: I get behind, I can't be, but I've done it. I've read it. I'm out.
Joanne Lockwood: How can I play? I used to play darts and pool. And
Joanne Lockwood: once I myself just feel as if I wasn't in the mood, I just wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: interested in playing, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't care about winning. I didn't
Joanne Lockwood: care about losing. I just want, well, do not play anymore. Whereas another
Joanne Lockwood: day. I'm out. I get bored. So,
Dr. Liz Wilson: yes, I hear you. And in fact, one of the things, so two things come
Dr. Liz Wilson: to mind when you share that with me is that, you know,
Dr. Liz Wilson: when you will go somewhere new and they'll go, what's your name? And some,
Dr. Liz Wilson: some, some, what's your hobby. And my whole life, I didn't have
Dr. Liz Wilson: something to share as a hobby. So I didn't have one. Right.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Like I do things, but it's because I like to
Dr. Liz Wilson: do all different things because they get bored with one thing. And I only realized
Dr. Liz Wilson: that that's why I never had a hobby of late was because I just like
Dr. Liz Wilson: to do new things all the time. So that's the getting bored
Dr. Liz Wilson: or, you know, to always doing something new. But when we're looking at, when
Dr. Liz Wilson: we talk about diagnoses of something, that's, it's not something that you've only
Dr. Liz Wilson: just got. And people keep saying in the news or in the media
Dr. Liz Wilson: or social media is that all these women in their forties are suddenly coming out
Dr. Liz Wilson: and saying they've got ADHD. It's like this wave of like popularity.
Dr. Liz Wilson: No, no. It's just because all the research was based on boys
Dr. Liz Wilson: and diagnosis was focused on a certain set of behaviors. And then only of late
Dr. Liz Wilson: has that research changed to include another gender. So that's where
Dr. Liz Wilson: we're, that's why that's happening. But why it became so valuable to me
Dr. Liz Wilson: is in my thesis, my anxiety had got out of control. So to
Dr. Liz Wilson: a point that it wasn't just manifesting in its panic attacks, it actually
Dr. Liz Wilson: was affecting me physically, physiologically. I was losing
Dr. Liz Wilson: my hair. I had heart palpitations and it affected
Dr. Liz Wilson: my cycles. I was seeing so many different specialists and doctors
Dr. Liz Wilson: until someone, a GP, a general practitioner for those listening to
Dr. Liz Wilson: primary care doctor for those in The US translating said to me, I think maybe
Dr. Liz Wilson: we should try some antidepressants. I was just pressed. He goes,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I think let's just, let's just see, trust me.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And I just went on over and he gave me what I've researched now is
Dr. Liz Wilson: the lightest dose of sertraline on the planet. And
Dr. Liz Wilson: after two weeks of taking it, my brain. So forget
Dr. Liz Wilson: about all the other stuff that was wrong with me physically.
Dr. Liz Wilson: My brain, I went, is this what normal people feel like?
Dr. Liz Wilson: Like I just went, it just took these layers off the top of my brain.
Dr. Liz Wilson: And now in my forties, I've done the research. Sertraline is a
Dr. Liz Wilson: treatment for people with ADHD. It's one of the options. And so
Dr. Liz Wilson: suddenly we weren't just treating all of those other things and it wasn't depression or
Dr. Liz Wilson: anxiety. That was a symptom of my ADHD had taken over control of
Dr. Liz Wilson: my life. So that's why diagnosis just helped a
Dr. Liz Wilson: lot. Yeah, I get it. I, I found that what cured my
Joanne Lockwood: head of spinning around out of control was was estrogen.
Joanne Lockwood: Once I started functioning on estrogen, were my or were my brain
Joanne Lockwood: confusions sort of settled down? And, I still have some of the other issues, but
Joanne Lockwood: it's all manageable. But, yeah, estrogen was the, the cure for me.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Hormones are so important. And particularly if we soapbox for
Dr. Liz Wilson: a little bit, X generation women entering into their perimenopause,
Dr. Liz Wilson: later perimenopause years now and menopause, we were
Dr. Liz Wilson: raised when the research was out there that says HRT or
Dr. Liz Wilson: hormone replacement therapy was bad because it caused all these
Dr. Liz Wilson: cancers. Well, in fact, that was a paper that got published
Dr. Liz Wilson: that wasn't accurate. So putting it off is not the
Dr. Liz Wilson: right thing to do. We need HRT, and that's
Dr. Liz Wilson: not necessarily, it could be just hormones on estrogen and
Dr. Liz Wilson: or progesterone, but we shouldn't avoid testosterone either. We need to make
Dr. Liz Wilson: sure covering, we have to have a trace of that as well. Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Anyway, well, that's not possible. We could, we could start this podcast again and,
Joanne Lockwood: and, and do our whole thing on ADHD and, and, and hormones and things. So,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, we've both got, probably a a lift lived experience
Joanne Lockwood: PhD in those. Liz, it's been absolutely fascinating. We've been
Joanne Lockwood: yacking on now for over an hour, and it's been fascinating to get to know
Joanne Lockwood: you and hear your story. And I love your energy. And and as
Joanne Lockwood: we predicted, we've got so many things that we resonate with and so many,
Joanne Lockwood: shared thoughts. So it's been it's been fascinating for me, and I hope for listening,
Joanne Lockwood: it's been fascinating for you as well. So just a quick rundown. How we get
Joanne Lockwood: hold of you? Well, we've talked about LinkedIn a lot. LinkedIn
Dr. Liz Wilson: is I have often said when I've been in workshops or keynotes, if you
Dr. Liz Wilson: send me an email, you're fighting with a lot of emails, but if you message
Dr. Liz Wilson: me on LinkedIn, I come from the Blackberry era.
Dr. Liz Wilson: So if there's a red dot on my messages on LinkedIn, I go and find
Dr. Liz Wilson: them and I answer. So if you wanna find me on LinkedIn, Doctor. Liz Wilson,
Dr. Liz Wilson: I'm there. Let's have a chat. I'm always open to having the conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: And I'll put stuff in the show notes around your strategic
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion practitioner and your strategic inclusion playbook programs.
Dr. Liz Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. I only just launched the strategic inclusion practitioner
Dr. Liz Wilson: program last week, just so that everybody across the world who's working in
Dr. Liz Wilson: inclusion has access to what I do. So it's just not
Dr. Liz Wilson: me doing it. I wanna just give everybody the capability to do
Dr. Liz Wilson: strategic inclusion transformations. So you wanna put, Pennsylvania
Joanne Lockwood: Avenue, bloke in charge, and chuck it in the first
Joanne Lockwood: year? And do say, I I would be a good
Dr. Liz Wilson: running ticket in The US. I'm just not a citizen. Yeah. That's
Joanne Lockwood: true. And we know how the we know how the the current incumbent
Joanne Lockwood: gets really upset if anyone's not a citizen. Correct. Well, you know,
Dr. Liz Wilson: we we could be on the line here too. We're in limbo right now with
Dr. Liz Wilson: our visa. So we may be coming to The UK to a venue near you
Dr. Liz Wilson: soon. Wow. You know, there's a a lot of great places. Yeah. There's Cotswolds
Joanne Lockwood: and other places around that beautiful. Scotland's nice. I've already
Dr. Liz Wilson: voted for Paul. Sorry. Paul. South coast. I'm not far from there. So
Joanne Lockwood: in Portsmouth, so about hour and a half from Paul on the South Coast. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a good place to live. Dorset's good. Jurassic coast. Lots of
Joanne Lockwood: dinosaur bones. It was an absolute joy to have a
Dr. Liz Wilson: conversation with you today. I and I actually hope that we can keep in contact.
Dr. Liz Wilson: I, I think we could talk underwater for three days straight.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And well, you said you got podcasts. Let's get me back on and I
Joanne Lockwood: can talk about, some of my lived experience and, see if we can get
Joanne Lockwood: trolled for a laugh. Yeah. I think we could make it our goal. Thanks so
Dr. Liz Wilson: much for your time today. Liz, thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to
Joanne Lockwood: express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for
Joanne Lockwood: lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: If today's discussion struck a chord, Consider subscribing to
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing
Joanne Lockwood: community, driving real change. Share this journey with
Joanne Lockwood: friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices
Joanne Lockwood: that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision
Joanne Lockwood: to share? I'm all ears. Reach out
Joanne Lockwood: tojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with
Joanne Lockwood: more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,
Joanne Lockwood: and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world
Joanne Lockwood: one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.