WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.219 Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary 2 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.125 for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, 3 00:00:15.265 --> 00:00:19.205 your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, 4 00:00:19.825 --> 00:00:23.425 belonging, and societal transformation. Ever 5 00:00:23.425 --> 00:00:27.265 wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not 6 00:00:27.265 --> 00:00:30.550 only belongs but thrives? You're not 7 00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:34.149 alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, 8 00:00:34.690 --> 00:00:38.629 challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate 9 00:00:38.770 --> 00:00:42.465 deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're 10 00:00:42.465 --> 00:00:46.385 sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's 11 00:00:46.385 --> 00:00:49.925 connect, reflect, and inspire action 12 00:00:49.985 --> 00:00:53.684 together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation 13 00:00:53.745 --> 00:00:55.344 too. Reach out to 14 00:00:55.344 --> 00:00:59.320 jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk to 15 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.700 share your insights or to join me on the show. 16 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:07.160 So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to 17 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:10.780 ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. 18 00:01:14.785 --> 00:01:18.645 And today is episode 159 with the title, 19 00:01:19.105 --> 00:01:22.805 the science of let's start that again. And today 20 00:01:23.025 --> 00:01:26.885 is episode 159 with the title, the science of workplace 21 00:01:27.105 --> 00:01:30.679 equity. And I feel absolute honor and privilege to welcome 22 00:01:30.979 --> 00:01:34.520 doctor Liz Wilson. Liz is a behavioral scientist 23 00:01:34.979 --> 00:01:38.920 and strategic inclusion expert dedicated to transforming workplaces, 24 00:01:39.539 --> 00:01:42.840 data, and research driven frameworks and organizational 25 00:01:43.219 --> 00:01:47.115 change. And when I asked Liz to describe her superpower, she 26 00:01:47.115 --> 00:01:50.955 said that it is turning personal adversity into a 27 00:01:50.955 --> 00:01:54.795 global mission for workplace equity and inclusion. Hello, Liz. 28 00:01:54.795 --> 00:01:58.720 Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. I think that sounds my superpower makes 29 00:01:58.720 --> 00:02:02.340 me sound like I'm some kind of wild idealist 30 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.320 thinking one person can change the world, but I guess you gotta start 31 00:02:06.320 --> 00:02:10.320 somewhere. Well, I'm a great believer that as much as I want to 32 00:02:10.320 --> 00:02:14.045 change the world, I know all I know is I can change me. I think 33 00:02:14.045 --> 00:02:17.805 changing me, showing up the best person I can be is my mission and 34 00:02:17.805 --> 00:02:21.565 hopefully between us, we can influence by another person. And that's what we were 35 00:02:21.724 --> 00:02:24.845 that's what we're trying to do with, isn't it? Yeah. And I've been well, before 36 00:02:24.845 --> 00:02:28.170 I even moved into working in inclusion, one of the things when I was focused 37 00:02:28.170 --> 00:02:31.790 on culture change was my career for twenty years before inclusion 38 00:02:32.650 --> 00:02:36.570 was I would say to people, you carry your organizational culture with you. So think 39 00:02:36.570 --> 00:02:40.215 of it, but sort of like your four square meters around you. That's 40 00:02:40.215 --> 00:02:44.135 your organizational culture and you have the influence over those four square 41 00:02:44.135 --> 00:02:47.575 meters. And so I think that's the same thing here that we can talk about. 42 00:02:47.575 --> 00:02:51.575 We take that culture with us, then those that step into that space, we 43 00:02:51.575 --> 00:02:55.275 can influence them to be our organizational culture. 44 00:02:56.500 --> 00:03:00.500 Oh, I love that. I love that. Because I remember when we're coming out 45 00:03:00.500 --> 00:03:04.500 of COVID, you know, all those years ago, it's like seems like a 46 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:08.340 lifetime ago, COVID. Oh, yes. I remember organizations, when they're 47 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:11.595 trying to cram people back into the office, they're trying to crowbar them and this, 48 00:03:12.075 --> 00:03:15.915 this, wow. You know, the culture of the organization is this. We need you back 49 00:03:15.915 --> 00:03:19.295 in the office. We can give you our culture, and we can buy you in. 50 00:03:20.475 --> 00:03:24.440 My my debate was I want my culture like my pension. I 51 00:03:24.440 --> 00:03:27.720 can take it with me from place to place to place. I don't need you 52 00:03:27.720 --> 00:03:31.500 to give me my culture. And so I want you to absorb 53 00:03:31.720 --> 00:03:35.580 or recognize my own culture and allow me to develop my 54 00:03:35.959 --> 00:03:39.795 my personal culture at home, my friends, my family, my community, and not 55 00:03:39.795 --> 00:03:43.675 expect me to drive two hours each way, just to have a bit 56 00:03:43.675 --> 00:03:47.555 of your call. And if you're, and I'm looking up, cause I'm 57 00:03:47.555 --> 00:03:51.235 like drawing from like all of the experiences of 58 00:03:51.235 --> 00:03:55.170 organizations. Cause I've been a freelance consultant since I was 26. So I've 59 00:03:55.170 --> 00:03:58.850 not been an employee, a technical employee, but it means I've seen and been 60 00:03:58.850 --> 00:04:02.790 in a lot of different organizations. And for the most part, 61 00:04:03.090 --> 00:04:06.870 I could only name two or three of the dozens of organizations 62 00:04:07.170 --> 00:04:10.765 that would have cultural values that align with mine. So 63 00:04:10.765 --> 00:04:14.685 this values alignment thing, we could go deep into values 64 00:04:14.685 --> 00:04:18.685 alignment or not. But in terms of, we know how toxic some 65 00:04:18.685 --> 00:04:22.685 cultures can be and those cultures aren't necessarily organizations like you're saying about 66 00:04:22.685 --> 00:04:25.745 coming to the office and we can give you our culture. Organizations 67 00:04:26.820 --> 00:04:30.520 are nice in theory or conceptually is having a whole culture, 68 00:04:31.139 --> 00:04:34.840 but we all know it comes down to the manager that we're working with. 69 00:04:34.900 --> 00:04:38.820 Right? So T it starts at the team culture level level, and that 70 00:04:38.820 --> 00:04:42.805 can be created remotely. Anyway, there we go. Duane, I didn't 71 00:04:42.805 --> 00:04:46.724 wanna hijack. We can No. No. No. That's good. I I think 72 00:04:46.724 --> 00:04:50.504 let's let's go down there. I mean, you're so you're so right. It it does 73 00:04:50.645 --> 00:04:54.245 it does completely come down to the your point of contact here, your 74 00:04:54.245 --> 00:04:57.960 supervisor, your manager, the team you're in. Because 75 00:04:57.960 --> 00:05:01.800 I I'm I'm a great fan of a an author called Rutga Bregman if you've 76 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.940 ever come across him. He's, two books. One is, 77 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:09.560 Eutopia for Realists, and the other one is Humankind. And I subscribe to 78 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:13.455 his his belief system, and I think he's a he really sings to me. And 79 00:05:13.514 --> 00:05:17.194 what it it says is inherently people are good. We don't wake up to be 80 00:05:17.194 --> 00:05:21.115 bad people. So I I also believe that organizations believe 81 00:05:21.115 --> 00:05:24.990 they're good. And as we both know, perspective is everything. You know? Just just 82 00:05:25.069 --> 00:05:27.949 because I believe I'm good doesn't mean so that you believe I'm good. So I 83 00:05:27.949 --> 00:05:31.710 think organizations do start off believing they're good as somehow that 84 00:05:31.710 --> 00:05:35.470 message gets diluted or gets lost through people. Because 85 00:05:35.470 --> 00:05:39.275 people, you can't predict them, can you? They're just they're just people. When 86 00:05:39.275 --> 00:05:43.275 we look, I'm a, I'm a cultural transformation expert. Right? 87 00:05:43.275 --> 00:05:46.474 Like it's what I do for a living. So it's almost sounds like I'm talking 88 00:05:46.474 --> 00:05:50.314 contradictory to what I do and help organizations do, but hear me out on the 89 00:05:50.314 --> 00:05:53.850 theory on this one, because this is how it works in practice. So let's say 90 00:05:53.850 --> 00:05:57.470 you have organization a and organization a is currently 91 00:05:58.090 --> 00:06:01.770 culturally this. Now, if you're listening and not watching, I'm doing like the 92 00:06:01.770 --> 00:06:05.690 inverted commas funny you use in the air because really 93 00:06:05.690 --> 00:06:09.545 culture is made up of behaviors and actions. Okay. So 94 00:06:09.545 --> 00:06:13.305 you can say your behaviors are X, Y, and Zed, but it's, what's 95 00:06:13.305 --> 00:06:17.305 demonstrated. What do we behaviorally do and what are the actions and 96 00:06:17.305 --> 00:06:21.145 decisions that we make? So we can, it's more about how do we 97 00:06:21.145 --> 00:06:25.009 change behaviors and actions? Cause you know what, if we're going to try to move 98 00:06:25.009 --> 00:06:28.849 an organization or that organization from a to b, the point 99 00:06:28.849 --> 00:06:32.849 is you actually can't change people's beliefs or values. And in fact, 100 00:06:32.849 --> 00:06:36.150 you shouldn't be trying to, that is in complete 101 00:06:37.974 --> 00:06:41.974 contrast to the desire to create diversity in 102 00:06:41.974 --> 00:06:45.895 an organization that enhances its ability to be creative and innovative and 103 00:06:45.895 --> 00:06:49.895 high performing. All you're trying to do is ensure there's an alignment of 104 00:06:49.895 --> 00:06:53.479 behaviors and actions to what are those principles 105 00:06:53.860 --> 00:06:57.860 or values. Is that true conceptual? I I don't know if I'm No. No. 106 00:06:57.860 --> 00:07:01.319 I I buy into that completely. I think I think you're right. And, I simplify 107 00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:05.175 that down to there's a difference between fitting in and 108 00:07:05.175 --> 00:07:09.015 being embraced for who you are. Fitting in is is changing you for 109 00:07:09.015 --> 00:07:12.855 the organization. So what you're talking about there is you're embracing my culture and 110 00:07:12.855 --> 00:07:16.855 values, and hopefully they align, or we can find some alignment between this, 111 00:07:16.855 --> 00:07:20.800 but you're not forcing me into yours. Now I'm going to bounce off what you've 112 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:24.800 said. The yes, and on forcing. Where, you know, the title I 113 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:28.720 think he gave us today was the science of workplace equity. So 114 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:32.400 here's a bit of the behavioral science bit behind it. Okay. So the 115 00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:36.235 doctor in me, so is the PhD in behavioral science and in 116 00:07:36.235 --> 00:07:39.855 organizational culture. That's literally what my PhD was. So 117 00:07:40.794 --> 00:07:44.575 what hurts my feelings as a behavioral science person 118 00:07:44.635 --> 00:07:48.315 is that, you know, you can't actually start with developing people's 119 00:07:48.315 --> 00:07:51.960 behaviors. I know, hang with me 120 00:07:51.960 --> 00:07:55.800 here. We actually have to create systems 121 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:59.720 and architectures, which is the behavioral economics of things. We have 122 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.420 to put systems and processes in place that force 123 00:08:04.765 --> 00:08:08.305 loosely. I don't mean with a stick, but just 124 00:08:08.525 --> 00:08:12.525 require. So I'll soften that word, a certain action 125 00:08:12.525 --> 00:08:16.365 to be demonstrated to go past go. I always, in my mind, I'm 126 00:08:16.365 --> 00:08:20.340 visualizing a monopoly board. If you want to succeed in this organization and get past 127 00:08:20.340 --> 00:08:24.039 go and continue around the board, you have to complete this step. 128 00:08:24.740 --> 00:08:28.500 And so that step, whatever that is, if you were trying to create more inclusive 129 00:08:28.500 --> 00:08:32.199 organization, for instance, since we're on an inclusion bites podcast, 130 00:08:32.495 --> 00:08:36.334 we put an inclusive step in that is required to continue on that 131 00:08:36.334 --> 00:08:40.255 pathway, whether that's in a process in a talent acquisition cycle, or if 132 00:08:40.255 --> 00:08:43.954 it's in the business case and project cycle, whatever it is, 133 00:08:44.095 --> 00:08:47.770 that is the system. And then that means we don't have to change 134 00:08:47.770 --> 00:08:51.290 anyone's beliefs. It's just, if you want to succeed in this organization, you need to 135 00:08:51.290 --> 00:08:54.830 do this action. And then the more times you do that action, 136 00:08:55.530 --> 00:08:59.465 it turns into a behavior. And the the great stuff for me is 137 00:08:59.465 --> 00:09:03.305 as a cultural transformation person is the more things the actions turns into 138 00:09:03.305 --> 00:09:07.005 behaviors, the accumulation of those behaviors then 139 00:09:07.065 --> 00:09:10.990 become your culture. And that's the science of workplace 140 00:09:10.990 --> 00:09:14.449 equity by putting that button on the keyboard that requires you to go 141 00:09:14.990 --> 00:09:18.990 enter for inclusion. So you're rewarding. So below training a 142 00:09:18.990 --> 00:09:22.910 puppy, you're, you're rewarded behavior. And that behavior is 143 00:09:22.910 --> 00:09:26.605 alignment with your corporate values. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So 144 00:09:26.605 --> 00:09:30.225 if inclusion is part of your own principles of your organization, 145 00:09:30.365 --> 00:09:34.365 there's pillars of success for your organization, you weave it into your 146 00:09:34.365 --> 00:09:38.300 ways of working across the organization. Like I said, whether it's and it's 147 00:09:38.300 --> 00:09:42.220 not just talent acquisition. I want to be really clear on for people is 148 00:09:42.220 --> 00:09:45.980 when we're transforming organizations to be inclusive. I do 149 00:09:45.980 --> 00:09:49.980 talent acquisition last. Right. This is, and that might 150 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:53.795 hurt some people's feelings because that's where people tend to start because it 151 00:09:53.795 --> 00:09:57.255 makes sense. Right. We need to get more diverse people in the organization. 152 00:09:58.195 --> 00:10:01.875 But I wholeheartedly believe that if all you do is focus on getting more 153 00:10:01.875 --> 00:10:05.714 diverse people into the room, you're just giving them another 154 00:10:05.714 --> 00:10:09.015 experience to have another, another opportunity to have a shit experience. 155 00:10:10.010 --> 00:10:13.210 We have to get our ducks on a row first and then create an inclusive 156 00:10:13.210 --> 00:10:17.130 environment systems, processes, architectures, so that when 157 00:10:17.130 --> 00:10:20.730 we do then get to talent acquisition and they come in, then they can bloody 158 00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:24.645 stay and thrive. Joanne. Oh, I don't know 159 00:10:24.645 --> 00:10:28.425 if you're reading my mind or you've or I'm reading yours or whatever 160 00:10:28.425 --> 00:10:32.425 happened. But whenever I talk about, building equity and inclusion bike 161 00:10:32.425 --> 00:10:36.189 rides, I always talk about starting with retention in mind. We got 162 00:10:36.269 --> 00:10:39.709 what we gotta do is sort as you say, sort out our culture, clean the 163 00:10:39.709 --> 00:10:43.630 tank, making sure that, the organization is fit 164 00:10:43.630 --> 00:10:47.390 for purpose because that otherwise, you just you bring people in. They go, oh, it's 165 00:10:47.390 --> 00:10:50.695 smelly in here, and you walk out the back door. On all your investment in 166 00:10:50.695 --> 00:10:54.455 in the term acquisition, the training, the onboarding, just go straight out the window 167 00:10:54.455 --> 00:10:58.135 because you And that's been the problem with if you think about the 168 00:10:58.135 --> 00:11:01.840 immediate in this point in time pushback politically 169 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.680 and socially on, and I'm going to use the acronym because that's what 170 00:11:05.680 --> 00:11:09.680 people are using the DEI. So that's become woke was the 171 00:11:09.680 --> 00:11:13.600 bad word. Now we've got woke and DEI, which has become its own 172 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.795 word. The people that are anti DEI 173 00:11:17.495 --> 00:11:21.014 think that it's just affirmative action and the recruitment 174 00:11:21.014 --> 00:11:24.315 process, right? That's in their mind. They're pushing back on that. 175 00:11:25.175 --> 00:11:28.935 When in fact, if we're creating inclusive organizations across the whole 176 00:11:28.935 --> 00:11:32.800 organization system, everyone's benefiting. And we can talk about the science bit that 177 00:11:32.800 --> 00:11:36.800 I've developed to help people understand that a bit more. And that's 178 00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:40.800 part of the problem. If we create an environment that everyone can thrive, that 179 00:11:40.800 --> 00:11:44.800 the barriers are removed for everyone, that everyone can fulfill their potential. We wouldn't 180 00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:48.695 be having this problem where people think it's about someone else and not me, 181 00:11:48.695 --> 00:11:52.695 because in fact, we all have inclusion needs. I'll keep going, keep 182 00:11:52.695 --> 00:11:56.455 going. I love it. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. I'm on a soapbox. If I go 183 00:11:56.455 --> 00:12:00.230 back to don't tell my professor, it was about a year 184 00:12:00.230 --> 00:12:04.230 prior to graduating my PhD. And I was, if anyone else listening has done 185 00:12:04.230 --> 00:12:07.270 a PhD, you get to a point I did a part time. So it was 186 00:12:07.270 --> 00:12:11.190 an eight year vlog and that that's me not swearing, but it's like, 187 00:12:11.190 --> 00:12:14.825 you're stabbing yourself in the eye. You want to give up. It's a horrendous journey. 188 00:12:15.524 --> 00:12:19.365 And if yours wasn't horrendous, then I'm jealous. So basically I went down a 189 00:12:19.365 --> 00:12:23.205 rabbit hole of researching about inclusion because what had happened is I'd heard that 190 00:12:23.205 --> 00:12:27.125 statistic at the world economic forum released, two 191 00:12:27.125 --> 00:12:31.070 zero eight years to gender pay equity. Now I wasn't. Yeah. All 192 00:12:31.070 --> 00:12:33.710 right. So this is a while. I don't know. Maybe it was eight, ten years 193 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:36.350 ago. I don't know. It hasn't got any better. It hasn't got, if you've read 194 00:12:36.350 --> 00:12:39.870 the latest one, it's still no better. Great. Anyway, so let's, let's call it ten 195 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:43.070 years ago to be safe because COVID stole us our years and I don't know, 196 00:12:43.070 --> 00:12:46.595 everything's blown now, but I heard the number and I'm like, 197 00:12:47.695 --> 00:12:51.695 so I work in organizational change and I get hired by organizations to take 198 00:12:51.695 --> 00:12:55.635 them from here to here, whatever that here to here is. And invariably 199 00:12:55.855 --> 00:12:59.779 dependent on that gap between current and future state, we're looking 200 00:12:59.779 --> 00:13:03.699 at eighteen months, three to five years, right? So they're the three time 201 00:13:03.699 --> 00:13:07.699 average timeframes. And I'm like, but pay equity, like 202 00:13:07.699 --> 00:13:11.540 from a change point of view, this is, this is me naively not knowing anything 203 00:13:11.540 --> 00:13:15.274 about DEI. Right. Well, you know, I could do the data analysis 204 00:13:15.334 --> 00:13:19.334 within forty eight hours and then, you know, within a week, I could pretty 205 00:13:19.334 --> 00:13:23.274 much make sure all of the pays are rectified and then 206 00:13:23.654 --> 00:13:27.195 give me a, I don't know, a few months to change processes and procedures 207 00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:31.500 that whole system to ensure it doesn't flex back. I don't know. Then we've 208 00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:34.700 got to work on behaviors to make sure people actually put into place. So maybe 209 00:13:34.700 --> 00:13:38.459 eighteen months, because I'll tell you, no organization is going to pay me for 210 00:13:38.459 --> 00:13:42.415 two zero eight years to fix pay equity. Figured if I 211 00:13:42.415 --> 00:13:45.214 knew how I could do that, like I knew it was just made. I just, 212 00:13:45.214 --> 00:13:48.815 I know exactly in my head, how I would do that. I need to look 213 00:13:48.815 --> 00:13:51.475 into how the world's doing diversity equity and inclusion. 214 00:13:52.415 --> 00:13:56.160 And literally that is what sparked my research 215 00:13:56.380 --> 00:14:00.380 into going into why aren't we getting the change we 216 00:14:00.380 --> 00:14:04.140 want? Why is it what's being done isn't working. That was my 217 00:14:04.140 --> 00:14:07.820 naive mind going into it. And that's how I started my research in 218 00:14:07.820 --> 00:14:11.704 inclusion. So breaks it down. Why isn't it working? Yeah. That's what I wanna 219 00:14:11.704 --> 00:14:15.305 know. That isn't that the fundamental challenge with the anti woke DEI 220 00:14:15.305 --> 00:14:18.925 pushback? Because it it hasn't seen that the rewards, it was promising 221 00:14:18.985 --> 00:14:22.985 because people aren't tackling it the right way. So what's what's the headlines? 222 00:14:22.985 --> 00:14:25.610 Why isn't it working? It's multi layered. 223 00:14:27.030 --> 00:14:30.950 Which one will I start with? Let's go with just 224 00:14:30.950 --> 00:14:34.950 purely because you were saying this immediate pushback at the moment. From 225 00:14:34.950 --> 00:14:38.894 behavioral science point of view, when we do change, whatever 226 00:14:38.894 --> 00:14:42.834 that change is in an organization. If I came into the organization 227 00:14:43.055 --> 00:14:46.735 and said, you know, Joanne, everything you've been doing up until 228 00:14:46.735 --> 00:14:50.575 today was wrong. I'll try to do that in a different 229 00:14:50.575 --> 00:14:54.510 time. When everything you've been done, you should feel bloody 230 00:14:54.510 --> 00:14:58.190 guilty for it because it's shit. You've been doing it wrong your whole 231 00:14:58.190 --> 00:15:01.950 life. So from today onwards, you're going to do it my 232 00:15:01.950 --> 00:15:05.805 way. And do you know what that person or 233 00:15:05.805 --> 00:15:09.404 group of people or organizational teams would do for those not 234 00:15:09.404 --> 00:15:13.245 watching? They stick their fingers up at you. Right? It is like the behavioral 235 00:15:13.245 --> 00:15:17.160 science of it is no, I'm gonna push back that 236 00:15:17.160 --> 00:15:21.160 will not affect change. So that could be anything from your, 237 00:15:21.160 --> 00:15:25.160 the software you've been using to inclusive ways of 238 00:15:25.160 --> 00:15:29.000 thinking and working. Right. So we can't come back at you with an activist 239 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:32.615 approach. Number one. So the change management approach hasn't been 240 00:15:32.615 --> 00:15:36.375 correct. Now, what I will say and acknowledge for those 241 00:15:36.375 --> 00:15:40.315 that are working in the space particularly is that I understand 242 00:15:41.415 --> 00:15:44.959 to look at me. I walk into a room with a visual 243 00:15:45.019 --> 00:15:49.019 privilege of presenting as white in The United States. So 244 00:15:49.019 --> 00:15:53.019 let's park that. But the thing is we need to be able to see 245 00:15:53.019 --> 00:15:56.480 ourselves in the inclusion solution. So 246 00:15:56.855 --> 00:16:00.774 when someone comes into the room, my contemporary, my peer, that's also working 247 00:16:00.774 --> 00:16:04.615 on inclusive change and they've lived their life without the 248 00:16:04.615 --> 00:16:08.615 same privilege that I have as I walk into a room. There's 249 00:16:08.615 --> 00:16:11.915 frustration, the barriers they're fought, like 250 00:16:12.920 --> 00:16:16.520 invariably, I understand why 251 00:16:16.520 --> 00:16:20.380 they are coming at it with an activist approach. So please don't 252 00:16:20.520 --> 00:16:24.220 feel like I'm dismissing your emotion and lived experience, 253 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:27.975 but unfortunately we have to park aside our emotion 254 00:16:28.834 --> 00:16:32.514 and approach it with a more understanding the science behind the 255 00:16:32.514 --> 00:16:36.035 neuroscience as to how it can affect the change. Does that make any sense, Joanne? 256 00:16:36.035 --> 00:16:38.915 I hope I'm explaining it okay. It does. I've got my own metaphor, which I'll 257 00:16:38.915 --> 00:16:42.390 have you share in a minute. You carry on, you carry on going. That's number 258 00:16:42.410 --> 00:16:46.390 one. Now in terms of seeing ourselves with any change, again, 259 00:16:46.770 --> 00:16:50.530 taking inclusion out of the conversation, there has to be a WIFM. And if 260 00:16:50.530 --> 00:16:54.210 anyone hasn't heard of that term before, it's an acronym for what's in it for 261 00:16:54.210 --> 00:16:57.835 me. Now, when we talk about the women's 262 00:16:57.835 --> 00:17:01.375 program, let's just use that. Right. Cause that was kind of the first movement, 263 00:17:01.915 --> 00:17:05.135 right? Like women vote, would think suffragettes. 264 00:17:06.155 --> 00:17:08.655 So if we take the women's program, 265 00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:13.980 Firstly, if we're giving women more opportunity to learn 266 00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:17.899 how to lead within an environment that isn't inclusive, you're actually 267 00:17:17.899 --> 00:17:21.740 not changing a system. You're just teaching them how to navigate a shit 268 00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:25.535 system. What we need to do is actually change the system 269 00:17:25.595 --> 00:17:29.375 now to change the system in that if we use a very binary, 270 00:17:29.835 --> 00:17:33.615 just to make it an easy explanation on a binary scale of gender, 271 00:17:34.315 --> 00:17:37.919 or for men that need to change, not the women, but the 272 00:17:37.919 --> 00:17:41.620 science will say, as soon as you say women, do you know who doesn't listen? 273 00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:47.760 Because their brain is programmed. We've all only got a small amount 274 00:17:47.760 --> 00:17:51.760 of program, like processing space or RAM in our brains. So we're not 275 00:17:51.760 --> 00:17:55.195 going to listen because it's not relevant. There's the other problem. 276 00:17:55.655 --> 00:17:59.655 Then if we take that layer, that label approach, right? So you 277 00:17:59.655 --> 00:18:03.435 look at a change across an organization, and if you're doing a program on women, 278 00:18:04.055 --> 00:18:07.180 which is very common, LGBTQI plus, 279 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.020 disability, race or ethnicity, religion, veteran, 280 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.800 neurodiversity, right? There's only so 281 00:18:15.800 --> 00:18:19.754 much airspace. You end up overwhelming people with the 282 00:18:19.754 --> 00:18:23.615 communications and ultimately you're trying to achieve the same thing. 283 00:18:24.315 --> 00:18:28.075 You're all trying to create inclusion. So then the 284 00:18:28.075 --> 00:18:31.995 next layer Joanne, and I feel like you're nodding because in inside we're doing 285 00:18:31.995 --> 00:18:35.960 this confirmation bias of what you already know, but 286 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:39.880 it's also, then we are all more of a one label. So if you're 287 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.880 doing a women's program. Sure. And I'll just use myself as an example, because that's 288 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.475 the safest place to be. I know myself better than anyone. If you do a 289 00:18:47.475 --> 00:18:51.155 women's program. Great. But what about my neurodiversity, my 290 00:18:51.155 --> 00:18:55.155 ADHD, like how's that fitting into things? And then my chronic pain, which 291 00:18:55.155 --> 00:18:58.835 really presents itself as a disability, like how's that layering into the women's 292 00:18:58.835 --> 00:19:02.639 program? And then what about as a parent? And then when I lost my son 293 00:19:02.639 --> 00:19:06.259 and the grief of that, like, how does that fit into that women's program? 294 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.659 Doesn't, it's not approaching people from a whole person 295 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.434 perspective, the intersectionality of humans. 296 00:19:15.135 --> 00:19:19.075 And so that's where, once I identified all those things, all those barriers, 297 00:19:19.534 --> 00:19:23.534 I then developed the eight inclusion needs of all people. And that's based 298 00:19:23.534 --> 00:19:27.235 on research and practice. It works globally 299 00:19:27.375 --> 00:19:31.179 across social, legal, cultural norms. Even across 300 00:19:31.179 --> 00:19:34.700 Asia, I tested it in countries where it's illegal even to be 301 00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:38.299 gay. So there you go. There's my big 302 00:19:38.299 --> 00:19:42.225 lecture. I hope I haven't watched. I'm I'm just nodding in 303 00:19:42.225 --> 00:19:45.985 agreement. You're singing the same tune, the same hymn seat. So, yeah, 304 00:19:45.985 --> 00:19:49.345 it's, let me show you what my metaphor, and it it doesn't work in The 305 00:19:49.345 --> 00:19:53.105 US. Unfortunately, it's more of a it's more of an English British 306 00:19:53.105 --> 00:19:57.060 thing because the way I look at it is, I treat the people of privilege 307 00:19:57.060 --> 00:20:00.260 as a as a as a as a stereotype, as a group, as people in 308 00:20:00.260 --> 00:20:03.940 their castle. So we talk about the the knights of the round table, the people 309 00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:07.460 in their castle. In in ancient England, they they were living in their 310 00:20:07.460 --> 00:20:10.845 castle. Outside the castle, you had the peasants 311 00:20:11.305 --> 00:20:15.145 that for various different backgrounds, and the peasants were revolting because peasants are 312 00:20:15.145 --> 00:20:18.745 always revolting. They're not happy with things. They want something different. But the people in 313 00:20:18.745 --> 00:20:22.665 the castle are going, it's fine in here. We've got enough fire, pigs, and sheep. 314 00:20:22.665 --> 00:20:26.010 We're gonna keep on living here. We don't need those pests. If the peasants start 315 00:20:26.010 --> 00:20:29.690 getting a bit bit feisty, they just start shooting them or doing what they're gonna 316 00:20:29.690 --> 00:20:33.210 do. They don't need the peasants. They're they're firing their castle. Then one day, the 317 00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:37.130 peasants had enough. So they all storm the castle. They've got their ladders. They've got 318 00:20:37.130 --> 00:20:41.115 their their pitchforks. They come out the castle, People in the castle just 319 00:20:41.115 --> 00:20:45.115 pull the drawbridge up, stand on the ramparts, shoot arrows, and pour boiling water and 320 00:20:45.115 --> 00:20:48.895 oil over. And the peasants just end up running away feeling disillusioned. 321 00:20:49.035 --> 00:20:52.250 Still hate the privilege, but they're still they're running away. The trouble with this thing 322 00:20:52.250 --> 00:20:55.370 is this is what we're doing today. You as an activist, you end up running 323 00:20:55.370 --> 00:20:58.170 up to the castle, banging your fist on the wall. We came black and blue, 324 00:20:58.170 --> 00:21:02.010 and all privilege is doing it, pulling the drawbridge up. So that what we're gonna 325 00:21:02.010 --> 00:21:05.710 do in the the first thing you're saying is, how do we lower that drawbridge? 326 00:21:05.975 --> 00:21:09.595 How do we get conversation? How do we have the centrist conversations where 327 00:21:10.055 --> 00:21:14.055 what's in it for me? We disarm. People approach the open mind where 328 00:21:14.055 --> 00:21:17.895 they say, actually, if I involve the peasants in my conversations, I'm gonna 329 00:21:17.895 --> 00:21:21.720 get better food. I'm gonna get better service. Yeah. Yeah. All 330 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.080 the things I've, I don't have enough resource for. I've got more people to help 331 00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:28.460 me though. And, I love the knowledge. 332 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.559 I have, I'm very visual. So I was, I had the whole visuals going 333 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:35.945 with the bows and arrows with fire on the end of it. Like, I mean, 334 00:21:35.945 --> 00:21:39.545 I had the whole story going inside my hand then. But that's what's happening in 335 00:21:39.545 --> 00:21:43.305 the world, isn't it? The privileged shore themselves up in their castle, and they're scared 336 00:21:43.305 --> 00:21:46.505 to let people in because they're worried about what's gonna happen to them. They think, 337 00:21:46.505 --> 00:21:49.230 well, hang on a minute. If I let you have some of what I've got, 338 00:21:49.309 --> 00:21:51.950 I won't have any left. You know, the zero sum game that we keep talking 339 00:21:51.950 --> 00:21:55.870 about. So if that brings true things to mind for 340 00:21:55.870 --> 00:21:59.730 me, where you were talking about that castle analogy, I'm sure 341 00:22:00.030 --> 00:22:03.965 I don't know. I'm filtering in my mind. I'm like, no, just say 342 00:22:03.965 --> 00:22:07.165 it as you see it Liz. So I was in the shower the other day, 343 00:22:07.165 --> 00:22:09.805 and I know that might sound like too much information, but I don't know about 344 00:22:09.805 --> 00:22:13.725 anyone else. My brain, I think has a way of you plant a 345 00:22:13.725 --> 00:22:17.565 seed and then for a week or two, it does some kind 346 00:22:17.565 --> 00:22:21.009 of processing when I, I don't know when it's doing it. And then I'll be 347 00:22:21.009 --> 00:22:24.850 in the shower in the morning and boom, I'll have an answer or a solution 348 00:22:24.850 --> 00:22:28.610 to something. But this was me one morning of the 349 00:22:28.610 --> 00:22:32.529 past two weeks since the change in administration in The United States. 350 00:22:32.529 --> 00:22:36.414 And it's been really rough for lots of reasons, 351 00:22:36.414 --> 00:22:40.095 but I was in the shower imagining if I was being 352 00:22:40.095 --> 00:22:44.095 interviewed by Fox news. Right. So I'm not, 353 00:22:44.095 --> 00:22:47.855 I have really thin. Yes. I have really thin skin. Right. I'm not good with 354 00:22:47.855 --> 00:22:51.750 conflict. Like, so, you know, it, it is one of my weaknesses. 355 00:22:52.850 --> 00:22:56.210 So I was imagining what would happen if I was interviewed? Like, how would I 356 00:22:56.210 --> 00:22:59.970 approach it knowing it would be coming at me with a conflict like conflict 357 00:22:59.970 --> 00:23:03.970 approach. Anyway, I won't take you down the dialogue that I had 358 00:23:03.970 --> 00:23:07.495 in my head. However, what did come to mind is that 359 00:23:07.495 --> 00:23:11.335 really what I'm able to leverage is I look like 360 00:23:11.335 --> 00:23:14.935 them. That this analogy where we're talking 361 00:23:14.935 --> 00:23:18.935 about castles, I imagine myself, like I'm a sheep in 362 00:23:18.935 --> 00:23:22.460 Wolf's clothing instead of a Wolf in chief's chief's clothing. 363 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:26.299 Right. And then me giggling to myself in the shower. Well, I'm a 364 00:23:26.299 --> 00:23:29.340 sheep in Fox clothing. But I think that is a privilege that I bring into 365 00:23:29.340 --> 00:23:33.280 a room that I'm quite disarming for those that perhaps 366 00:23:33.495 --> 00:23:37.495 don't believe in inclusion or the DEI acronym. So that 367 00:23:37.495 --> 00:23:41.175 in itself is something that I'm able to leverage. And then once that's 368 00:23:41.175 --> 00:23:45.175 disarmed, I create safety around, well, they look at me and think 369 00:23:45.175 --> 00:23:48.740 I'm one of them. And then when I start to disclose my 370 00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:52.500 identities, they're like, so inclusion and diversity is 371 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:56.120 about more than race or a color of a skin. 372 00:23:56.180 --> 00:24:00.180 Okay. So now we're just lowering that and they say, oh, I've got chronic pain 373 00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:04.155 too. Or like I had a learning difficulty at school and, 374 00:24:04.215 --> 00:24:06.695 you know, so it was, you know, you start to get to that point and 375 00:24:06.695 --> 00:24:10.535 then I go, right, let's look at these eight inclusion needs of all people. And 376 00:24:10.535 --> 00:24:13.770 when I take them through them, anyone can Google them. And, 377 00:24:14.490 --> 00:24:16.970 I don't want to have do a big lecture on it, because I could talk 378 00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:20.830 about it underwater for eight hours, but these eight inclusion 379 00:24:20.890 --> 00:24:24.890 is everyone can see themselves in them. And when they realize they need 380 00:24:24.890 --> 00:24:27.870 every single one of them for them to have them, 381 00:24:28.725 --> 00:24:32.565 then everyone else can have them too. Pretty simple, really. 382 00:24:32.565 --> 00:24:36.565 You think so? You think so? But that's that's the problem with with we're not 383 00:24:36.565 --> 00:24:40.245 translating the mission into language that people 384 00:24:40.245 --> 00:24:43.350 understand. And I think you talked about the activist model and I talked about the 385 00:24:43.350 --> 00:24:47.190 the peasants revolting against the castle. We need a different strategy, and I 386 00:24:47.270 --> 00:24:50.890 it frustrates me sometimes because I I've realized 387 00:24:51.110 --> 00:24:55.030 over the last ten years, I suppose, you can't change 388 00:24:55.030 --> 00:24:58.945 people with ingrained views and opinions that aren't willing to be open minded. So 389 00:24:58.945 --> 00:25:02.785 the only place you can engage is slightly left or right of 390 00:25:02.785 --> 00:25:06.485 center. You can make maybe influence people who are just just off kilter. 391 00:25:07.265 --> 00:25:10.705 And then once you've got them, you can then use that as a foothold to 392 00:25:10.705 --> 00:25:13.265 influence the next group, and then the next group, then the next group. You can't 393 00:25:13.265 --> 00:25:17.070 go straight into the the far right or the far left or whatever whatever analogy 394 00:25:17.070 --> 00:25:20.510 you wanna use. So we gotta try and work in the center, but I I 395 00:25:20.510 --> 00:25:24.510 often get accused of selling out because the center 396 00:25:24.510 --> 00:25:28.510 ground can't make change, and it's it's it's too liberal. We should be standing up 397 00:25:28.510 --> 00:25:32.434 against fascist standing up against Marxists standing. I think my, hang on a minute. We 398 00:25:32.434 --> 00:25:36.134 could, that sounds like pitchforks and burning bushes and things. 399 00:25:36.355 --> 00:25:40.355 Kind of have to find that influence. Isn't it? I say you can't 400 00:25:40.355 --> 00:25:44.070 put me at 50 years old into a room for one hour 401 00:25:44.070 --> 00:25:47.990